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On Strategy Showcase
On the Spot: Starbucks and JCPenney. Planners talking about brands they've never worked on
00:53:09
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- [00:00]
Fergus
So we are back with our Misfits again this month. We're actually really enjoying this series. A lot of interest in it and a lot of calls and notes about it. So we're thrilled to do this again. It is. Our regular Misfits are back. Matthew is the co founder and co CEO of Tracksuit New York City. Welcome back, Matthew.
- [00:22]
Matthew
Hello. Nice to be here again. Let's do this.
- [00:24]
Fergus
And Vanessa Chin is SVP marketing for System One here in Chicago. Good morning and our guest speakers, our guest judges, our guest guest misfitters. The wonderful Mary Bakarich is back. She is group strategy director at Johannes Leonardo in New York, formerly was on the show. And we're thrilled to have Mary come on as part of this experiment we call on the spot. Welcome, Mary.
- [00:48]
Mary
Thanks for having me.
- [00:50]
Fergus
And Christopher Owens is head of brand strategy at TRG in Dallas. For those who don't know, TRG means the Richards Group, very famous agency for many decades. Christopher, good to have you on.
- [01:03]
Christopher
Big fan. Can't wait.
- [01:04]
Fergus
And Christopher was wonderful because the Chick Fil a business was at TRG for many, many shit. Nearly two decades or whatever, 23 years. So I hope you enjoyed that episode last week, last month's episode where we dug into Chick Fil A. Did anybody lose their mind?
- [01:23]
Christopher
It was a trip down memory lane. It was like a time capsule. So a lot of good vibes on this end.
- [01:27]
Fergus
Yeah, Brilliant work. Brilliant, brilliant work. So the theme for this month is Revival. The two brands that we've picked this month are Starbucks and JCPenney. Starbucks is done by Anomaly in California and they've done a new campaign for Starbucks and JCPenney. Both of these are brands that are trying to sort of have this, are trying to revive their brands in sort of two distinctly different ways. We're going to start with Starbucks and I thought I'd just give a little bit of an intro before I throw it to these guys. But when we talk about Starbucks, we're talking about a brand with decreased growth. We got a decrease in traffic, we got prices and service quality challenges, increase in competition. The big issue, I think, has been the fact that one of the big issues is the fact that they've really moved from being a place where you sat down and spent some time, which was a huge part of the appeal of Starbucks back in the day. This idea of being the sort of the third place outside of home and outside of work. You could go there, hang out, you could spend time. That changed with a lot of the new store designs where they began to move the seating out of the space and oriented more towards the drive thru experience. Mobile ordering, mobile pickup in store and it sort of felt like they'd walked away from a lot of those sort of foundational experiences of the brand. In addition, a massive expansion of the drinks menu, food came on board and began to create a tougher working environment for employees. There's been a lot of unrest among employees. This campaign is called hello again and it really focuses a lot, Christopher, on sort of the in store experience. It's bringing us back into what they now label as Starbucks, the coffee company. So they're going back to their roots to sort of reintroduce us to a brand that focuses more on the personal experience than in the past. What do you think of the work overall?
- [03:27]
Christopher
You know, this is just terribly confident work from a brand that you think has had swagger for so many decades. Do they really need any more? But yeah, you have to keep those memories fresh, right? There's always new people coming into the category. There's tons of competition. And so looking at this work, I kind of imagine this as being the process. Kind of like you go into couples therapy and you've got two people who've had a relationship for a long time and then things get a little slow and then someone says, take us back to those very first moments when you first met. Like just remember those moments, the sights, the sounds, the smells. Why you decided you want to spend time with each other for much longer. Right. And I feel like that's what the brand is doing here. It's taking us back to the person who gets to know your name. And with that Sharpie writes it down on the label and reminds you that there's real humans getting up at oh Dark hundred and turning that key and putting the lights on and. And preparing for you. And these tight shots of getting in of the energy and the edit just feels caffeinated. It just feels like they're just getting back to their roots. It's like I'm a music nerd. So in a band you get off and you just start soloing. At some point you get soloing with your cake pops and your Sarah McLachlan CDs that you're selling and all these other things and become qsr. And then you got to find your one. You gotta get back to find your one. Put the emphasis back on the two and the four. Get the rhythm going again. And I really feel like this Reset is doing for and they're just doing it with a ton of distinctive assets. I think Fluency, I'll be curious to hear from Vanessa is going to be great on this one.
- [05:09]
Vanessa
Almost perfect. Literally almost perfect. Which is rare.
- [05:13]
Mary
Which is rare.
- [05:13]
Fergus
So let's define what fluency is, Vanessa, before we get into it.
- [05:17]
Vanessa
Sure. So we measure brand recognition two different ways. One is by the end of the spot, do you recognize a brand? And then we also measure fast. Fluency was how quickly did you know it was Starbucks? And scores very highly on both of those measures. But yeah, I mean, score for our overall brand fluency, it's from 1 to 100 and it score depending on the spot. It was like 98, 96. And for a brand new campaign, you don't see that. So they really pulled out, you know, as Christopher says, like all the stops on it.
- [05:51]
Fergus
Yeah, it's. It's definitely super branded. Mary, what's your reaction to it?
- [05:55]
Mary
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, you have one of the most famous logos in the world and it's right there in that handoff moment with the cup. And I think back to the point Christopher was making, I was really struck by that metaphor you used around couples therapy, because I think what they kind of identified is that yes, all the hedonics of the coffee are present in the work, but the human relationship got so eroded in this sort of movement towards growth and efficiency. Right. So like when, when you turn your product into, into fuel, which obviously coffee kind of is, but they. With, with online ordering and pick like a shelf for pickups, you don't even interact with a human. Right. So much of the way that we order food or interact with companies, you know, obviously a lot of that was for safety reasons during the pandemic. And then it just sort of set in as new ways of doing business. So I think this notion of hello again is yes, like a return to the core product, but a return to the core humanity of the brand that made it a fixture in your community, a place that you want it to be in the people that you knew that you even had a relationship with, if you were a regular, they knew your order, things like that. I think all of that sort of implicit stuff, they're not telling you any of that. But I think the way that you, you kind of feel that human connection and the way that they made so much of that like sort of core moment of truth of handing over the cup was, was brilliant.
- [07:12]
Christopher
You know, occasionally you go off and you do some qualitative and there's those things that people tell you you'll never forget your entire career. Mary just said something that, like, reignited one of those. A million years ago, we were doing a pitch for a competitor, and it allowed us to get out in the field. I was in LA and speaking with the barista, and one of the questions we would ask is like, so this competitor is opening up across the street. How do you feel about that? And I'll never forget the thing that the Starbucks barista told me, because it was just like, oh, my God, that is training. That is brand internalization. They said, oh, I'm not worried about it. And I was like, okay, tell me about that. It's like, well, that other one. They're in the coffee business, serving people. We're in the people business. We just happen to be serving coffee. And my mind exploded because this was essentially like, I don't know, a $9 hour. An employee that had such advocacy and was so tuned in to what they were doing, maybe that's part of what they're trying to do, is trying to get back to that. To that piece, to that humanity, as Mary put it. But, yeah, I'll never forget hearing that out in the wild.
- [08:12]
Mary
I think that, like, when you have, like, whatever, they had four CEOs in five years, and when you have this sort of, like, ruthless, relentless pursuit of growth where you're trying to, like, diversify your offer or move people through faster so that you can, you know, do more turns, it's. It's the. Those things, like the training of the staff to understand, like, what they're in the business of doing that is, like, so foundational and fundamental. And if you don't have that focus at the leadership level in the company, you can't hope that the marketing will hit and strike a chord because then it won't be credible. Right. You might say that in the work, but then somebody goes into the store and that's not their experience. So clearly they've got a lot of those foundational things clicking in a better direction.
- [08:51]
Fergus
So, Matt, what did you. What you think of the work? What you think of the business problem, too?
- [08:55]
Matthew
What did I think of the work? I mean, as a. As a New Zealander in the us My name gets pronounced and spelled wrong all the time. So I, I probably. I properly resonated with the. That's not my name. So I. I love the work. I thought I. I saw that brought a smile to my face, a bit of nostalgia in there as. As well. And I looked into the. Into the tracksuit, into the tracksuit data. And, and for every brand, every category, we track something that says when Thinking of Starbucks, what comes to mind, it's open ended. Tell us what you really feel. And there's two generic pieces that came out. One pleasant, cozy and fun versus on the other hand busy, unpleasant and corporate.
- [09:37]
Mary
Interesting.
- [09:38]
Matthew
And so when you look at the qualitative aspects about what people think and feel about Starbucks, there's absolutely those, those differences there. What they are doing right in the data that we're seeing is that Starbucks is doing something absolutely right with 18 to 24 year olds. They have remarkable increases in those considering the brand and also those who are preferring Starbucks as their coffee chain of choice. So Chris said before, you know there are, there's the couples therapy about people who've had this long standing relationship with Starbucks but there's also the new consumer coming through and Starbucks is doing a great job and we're seeing that especially over the last six months. So an absolute turnaround for Starbucks.
- [10:26]
Fergus
So I've got to think Vanessa, that is this about going back? I mean in other words, do you have to go back in order to go forward or is this really not going back to the roots? It's just sort of reminding us or reintroducing those to us in a way that hopefully will connect with us so you don't have to know, know it from the past in order to get the value of it.
- [10:48]
Vanessa
Yeah, there's something that happens with the right brain, with a recognizable place. So that's just really important to get that you know, really strong emotional reaction to the work. And so you can have a long standing recognition or it could be you recognize it because it's been really strong recently. So in, in the case of this, you know, they really are bringing back, you know, as Matt said, like the, and the name scrolling, you know, the green aprons. But one thing that I, I thought was really interesting in the results with a couple things, one that typically in spots that have a lot of quick cuts, we don't see them necessarily perform very well because what Mary was talking about is that human connection. The one thing that I was surprised by is that there was a strong emotional connection to this work and they did connect with the, the individuals. I mean because I think they had a kind of swagger, you know, there was an energy to their movements, there was a little bit of dance to it and you did start to feel like you knew these human beings who were starring in these roles. So that definitely gave the work energy and just created a sense of happiness in looking at it.
- [12:08]
Christopher
It had this caffeinated cut style but there was still lived time. Right. Because still the chronology of the beginning to the end of the server experience. So if you could keep up with that editorial pace, which is something you'd expect from a brand that's all caffeinated. It still is taking me through a familiar journey despite those quick shortcuts. I've got really a wood in my head talking about the goods and bads of those things. But that lived time space might be really working for it.
- [12:36]
Matthew
Yeah. And speaking of caffeinated approaches to the advertising, when we're having a look again in the tracksuit data, we can see that those brands who have the perception around great taste in coffee are driving two times more likely to drive consideration for their brand. And so there is that mix of emotional, human and there is still the functional tasting of the coffee which as Fergus said, Starbucks, the coffee company is leaning back into, hey look, this is what we do and this is what we do really well. And, and we know that that drives consideration and is the most important driver of consideration. So seeing that in through the work was quite interesting.
- [13:17]
Fergus
We'll be right back. Want always on brand metrics that deliver value to stakeholders. This episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand tracking which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking without the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communic the value of brand building. Check it out@gotracksuit.com that's gotracksuit.com now back to the show. Hey, so Mary, what do you think of it compared to something like Duncan? Because Duncan's style is so different. It's the heavy celebrity sort of push. It's Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, you know, others that are a part of that. And I think and we'll talk in a second to Vanessa about how that's scored versus this Starbucks ad in the super bowl or pre Super Bowl. What are your thoughts on Dunkin or any of the other competitors compared to where Starbucks is?
- [14:48]
Mary
Yeah, I mean I guess you feel sort of a different sense of what they believe their role is in the category. Right. I feel like Starbucks came out and tried to behave like a leader. When you think about this campaign, I mean, Starbucks is trying to reclaim the credit for creating cafe culture in America. That is what their legacy ultimately is. And so I think, you know, you dispense with celebrity, you dispense with sort of the flash of, you know, like a Super bowl or whatever to try to get all of America's attention. And instead you really, you know, again, go back to the core, think about what it was that does draw and has drawn people to the brand versus, you know, sort of those bigger swings of flashy marketing. And again, not to knock Duncan's approach. Like, I think it's actually great for that brand and quite true of, of sort of the spirited energy of it. But I think what Starbucks did was really try to claim that leadership mantle with this work.
- [15:47]
Fergus
So, Christopher, do you think this is enough to turn around this brand? And of course it's going to take time, but as a strategist, do you look at this and go, it's nice, but is it strong enough?
- [16:02]
Christopher
It's also careful what you ask for. I mean, the expectations that setting up for that more human experience, that's going to happen across the counter, if people are paying attention, then they're going to expect that. And I think sometimes the secondary audience for work like this can be just reminding your baristas what is expected of them. And there's tons of them across the same media swap that's going to be exposed here. So it's almost like in a tertiary training mechanism to help them understand their importance in the equation and what they have to bring to the day to day. And so that like everything, strategy is one thing, execution is where it all sings. And so actually pulling that out in those last six feet, whether it's at the drive through or more often perhaps across the counter, it really feels like this work wants to get people back in the booths, across the counter, pressed up at the glass, less about the in and out quick, nobody gets hurt. It's like it feels like they're wanting to be a little less qsr, and that means it's going to have to feel less qsr. Duncan to me is almost more unapologetically qsr. And this kind of like falls into some of the QSR tactics, fluent devices, tropes and things like that. They might more naturally go there, but I feel like getting back to the one and finding the roots. They're going to have to not just do that in the comms, but they're going to have to do that down to those real human experiences where you've got all the senses engaging and we know you expose someone to three plus more sensory engagements, the ability for that memory to imprint goes through the roof. So that's really where they're going to have to kill it.
- [17:34]
Fergus
So I suppose, Mary, when you think of it that way, when it takes so long to change things, the actual physical in store experience in terms of the tangible things can't be changed quickly. But the intangible things, the smile, the ceramic mug so you'll maybe sit and stay a little longer in store, the smiley face on your cup, the smile and the friendliness of the people is probably a smart first step, right?
- [17:58]
Mary
Oh, 1,000%. I mean, I think that's, you know, every single decision matters, as you said. Right. And so it's a collection of a lot of small things that can make or break a consumer's experience. So, you know, as Christopher was saying, I mean, I think that not just inspiring the baristas when they see that work, but even recruiting new ones. Right. So if you've seen this work, you may actually be more tempted to want to go, you know, work at a place where you might feel more pride of product and pride in what your role is versus, you know, a Dunkin or another, you know, coffee shop down the road. And so, you know, I think that individual store owners, I was reading an article where they talked about how much individual control the managers used to kind of have over personalizing and making that space feel unique to the community and really like a fixture in a part of the neighborhood. So I think even like those smaller decisions of actually empowering the local store management will sort of, time will tell, you know, sort of if that's been activated in a, in a meaningful and inspiring way for the consumer. But those little things, like, it prevents that corporate feeling setting in that QSR feeling like you're talking about, isn't that.
- [19:13]
Matthew
Isn'T, isn't that such a, isn't it such a good example about how this campaign can be used for the consumer? It can also be used for future employees. It can also be used for the current employees. And what is Starbucks trying to do? And how do they control what's controllable? It's how do we show up in the world for our consumers, for our staff as we are. And I think that's the, as a role, as a, you know, as an agency partner. It's not just that advertising TV commercial now, it's how does this get rolled right across the business strategy and What a powerful position to be in for. You know, if it's anomaly that's running this work, it's properly integrated into the shift in business direction, not just an ad campaign.
- [19:54]
Christopher
Well, and they're in the most powerful position. Right. Like Starbucks and maybe Matt, you can back this up. I mean, but, but they're the brand that's committing double jeopardy on all the other brands are being punished twice. Right. So like they've got all this.
- [20:05]
Fergus
What do you, what do you mean by that, Christopher?
- [20:07]
Christopher
Oh, getting nerdy. So evidence based marketing going Ehrenberg Bass style. You know, this concept of double jeopardy that, you know, the largest brand has all these force multipliers on top of what they're communicating with their media and just their, just the surface area of the memory structure that's in people's minds already gives them this wonderful advantage. And so all their competitors are going to have fewer customers who are going to be slightly less loyal. So on top of this really confident, strong, anomaly driven creative, they are just that biggest player. And so their ability to get noticed because so many people know Starbucks, they will actually be more familiar with the work when they see the work. So they're actually more likely to actually even see it over time. So again it gets back to careful what you ask for. I really feel people will pay attention to this and then they're going to want to see the receipts once they get inside and have the brand experience with all those touch points that Mary spoke to Chris.
- [21:01]
Matthew
I mean absolutely. When you talk about this big brand, see bigger results. What we're also able to do in the tracksuit data is cut it to remove brand size.
- [21:10]
Fergus
Right.
- [21:10]
Matthew
So we can take the size of the brand out to still see where are you over performing underperforming. And Starbucks is still doing a great job. So the work is translating no matter the size. When we look at the competitors competitor average, it's working right through.
- [21:27]
Fergus
Okay, so as we look at this, Vanessa, let's talk about the spots. There's three spots. There is. Hello again, not my name and I can't remember what the third one is, but it's, but it's pretty cool.
- [21:42]
Unknown
It starts in darkness and then suddenly out of the darkness, energy beans, ground milk, froth shots poured, espresso, shaking and shaking and shaking and shaking and shaking 10 times, no more, no less. 165 degree milk poured into a double shot of dark magic and ooh, that's the good stuff. This is the story of Coffee & Co. Inspired by Italy reimagining Seattle so Arbarista is a ready night. The world's best beans are ready. A little pick me up in your cup is ready. That feeling that only the perfect set can give you is ready. The Starbucks you love is ready. Hello again.
- [22:44]
Vanessa
They call me Stacy. They call me her. They call me Jane. That's not my name. That's not my name. That's on my name. That's on my name.
- [23:09]
Fergus
How are they actually testing and what are these sort of the observations you have when you look at those numbers?
- [23:14]
Vanessa
You know, Starbucks is doing well, but I would, I really needed to look at some more extensive reports to see what was really happening in the verbatims to understand why was this work great but not the best, you know, why did it not, you know, be a five star? So for those listening and those on the call, we, we have a couple measures. Our star rating which is 1 through 5 point, and that really measures the strength of the campaign over time and long, long term market share growth. We also measure the spike rating which is short term sales potential and then fluency for branding. And so the coffee category, coffee, tea, sweeteners, the category average is fairly low. It's about a 2.6. Now granted it isn't just, you know, retail experiences, it's also CPG brands playing in the space for this work. It scored high threes, which is pretty good. But why not five star? And looking at the vertums, it's just going to take a minute for this, for this revival. You know, as Fergus, as you were saying, there are mentions about human rights, there are mentions about, you know, business practices. And you know, that's one of those things where from an advertising perspective you can't like launch a campaign and expect it to erase all of these other things that are, are happening that they're reading about in the news, you know, and so from this standpoint, it's really strong against the category average. But I think it's going to take another minute for, for really powerful positive emotions to bring it to the next level.
- [24:54]
Fergus
And so does it, does it really need to get there though? I mean, should that be the goal or can it live in the threes? Because it's Starbucks, they're not going to do something they don't do. They need to do something so original that would get on the 5.5s or can they go successfully along in the 3.5s?
- [25:13]
Vanessa
Yeah, I mean as a leader in the category and the amount that they're spending, which is significant against their competitors, probably not. I think they'll be okay. But I'd like to see, typically Christmas campaigns will add that added layer and there's extra sense of feeling associated with it. And we'll see kind of campaigns creep up over, over time. But, you know, all eyes on Duncan. I mean, Duncan has made a lot of really great choices. Even though they're using celebrities, they're using celebrities in a way that makes sense for them. The work is really, really entertaining. And so I think, I think Duncan brings the heat from that standpoint and I'd be watching out for them.
- [25:55]
Mary
How does, how does Duncan rate in your. Do you track them too?
- [25:59]
Vanessa
We do. They have high threes, but then they've also gotten in the fours and the fives. When they had work that was getting to the point where you recognize it was Ben Affleck and you knew he was coming back. That work actually was fairly some of the best scoring. They've started kind of rotating celebrities and there's something that happens emotionally when you're not really sure who the brand is. Where's the campaign going? So James Marsden, he had some work last week that we tested and it was really strong because it's really entertaining, but it's not really getting that. You know, those powerhouse scores because they keep changing. Sabrina Carpenter with Espresso so when you do too much change, it's really hard for the regular, you know, consumer outside of the marketing community to catch up.
- [26:48]
Matthew
Yeah, it's absolutely something that we're, we're looking at. I think Vanessa and I will both, will both vary a line and it takes time. It takes time for this to come through. What did surprise me is over the last six months again, Starbucks is just seeing these incredible growths in consideration and preference for the brands with these 18 to 24 year olds, whereas Duncan isn't seeing it. And so again, we're talking about one, one or a couple of types of ads. How do they show up on social? How do they show up in real life? What's the mix that they're doing? How are they being relevant for the different customer segments? I know that, yeah. Vanessa and I will be looking and tracking this very, very closely to see how well is that, you know, that say do and the consistency over time that these brands are both taking.
- [27:35]
Fergus
We'll be right back. Are celebrities the secret sauce to add effectiveness? What about music or brand characters? You can predict and improve advertising's commercial impact with System 1's test yout ad platform. Test yout Ad is the creative effectiveness platform that measures consumers emotional responses, predicting the sales and growth impacts of advertising. You can test creative for linear and connected tv, digital, outdoor, audio and print channels from early concepts through to finished film plus access. System One's Test yout Ad Premium platform. With more than 150,000 ads in the database, you get the most accurate view of your category with results and rankings updated daily. So create with confidence. To learn more, visit systemonegroup.com that's System One Group. Now back to the show. So our second case for today is J.C. penney. So this is really interesting and a long term play when we think of JCPenney, it's one of those big department stores. It's been around in the malls for decades. It was started actually in 1902 by a guy called James Cash Penny. That's where J.C. penney came from. At its peak in 1973 it had 2,2000 stores. I mean it was pretty much everywhere for a big department store. It now has 650. So I'm surprised it still has 650 to tell you the truth. Yeah, that's kind of wild. So it entered and exited bankruptcy around 2020. It's now owned by a holding company and it's a part of a group of different brands. But they've made a commitment to invest up to a billion dollars. I shouldn't say up to. They've made a commitment to invest a billion dollars in operations and customer experience. But again that's going to take a lot of time to roll out. So their audience is sort of the mass middle and they see from what we've been able to read, they see an opportunity in tough economic times when we're dealing with issues of suggested inflation and rising costs and then with tariffs that are increasingly a threat, they see an opportunity to be able to market to those sort of price and value cons consumers. I think in terms of the overall category, obviously Amazon online brands are a huge factor in driving the decline of stores such as Sears and JCPenney. But Mary, when you look at this, we'll talk about the specific work from Mischief in a second. But I mean it's tough to be a massive legacy brand that your grandmother or grandfather used to shop at. You probably went to as a kid. But it's tough to make that now your store given the variety of choices available.
- [30:35]
Mary
Oh absolutely. I mean I think that, you know, you talk about the mass middle like we don't really have a middle class in America anymore with growing, you know, income inequality. So brands that found themselves in that place are sort of all in that sort of soul searching moment in terms of who are they serving? Right. So I think that the spirit of, I would say I can't remember the last JCPenney campaign. I don't know when it was. So it almost feels like they've skipped a generation in a lot of ways. And so in the world of Starbucks, they were sort of reintroducing themselves. Hello again. But I think the approach here feels like a very interesting one, which is it's just sort of. Hello. So there's many people who have no associations with the brand or coming in with very little existing good or bad perceptions of it. And so I think that the, the approach that they took of just putting the product front and center, like, you know, get to know us by what we, by what we offer. In some instances, not even having the brand logo present in the work, it's sort of like just be seduced by what we, by what we offer. And, you know, look, we live in such a visual culture. The place that you buy something is less important than sort of what you have to kind of show for it. Right. What your haul looks like. You see that even online with people playing into Duke culture and whatnot. Right. They're just looking for the look or they're just looking for the thing that best fits the need and serves the purpose, rather than bragging about what shopping bag they're carrying, because in some instances it's just coming in the same unmarked brown box, you know, on their doorstep.
- [32:17]
Fergus
Yeah. Vanessa, what's, what's, what's your thought on the, on the overall strategy and the challenge?
- [32:22]
Vanessa
This is a tough one. And when I started reading the headlines and I knew that mischief was going to be taking on this challenge, I was eyes wide open and wanted to see what's happening. You know, JCPenney went through a lot of, you know, from a marketing news standpoint, a lot of like, logo revamps. They made a lot of changes. And so there really isn't something to hold onto, to revive necessarily. So I was really curious, you know, for me, in terms of the strategy. I spent a lot of the last decade prior to System One working for a discount grocery retail chain. And the amount of briefs that say high quality, low, low price is endless. And there's some fatigue to that. And I think that JCPenney is going to really have to spend some time proving that the high quality is there to make this believable. And the scores reflect that. Even in the verbatims, there was mention of like, oh, I thought J.C. penney was closed. So I'm confused. There was definitely some higher fluency when it came to the ad featuring clothing. When it came to featuring home products like the Le Creuset, that was much lower scoring. But overall, the work, it's under category average. But I think they've got some work to do essentially to prove out. The proof is in the receipts, which they do say in, in, in. In the tagline, as Mary said, it's. But I think this is going to need a decent amount of time and effort to deliver the promise.
- [33:53]
Fergus
So, Christopher, that idea of you're sort of, you're sort of trying to close the gap between perception and surprise, right?
- [34:03]
Christopher
Yeah. This is a proof of life. You know, this is like a brand standing up with like today's newspaper and a photo and saying, hey, we're still alive. You know, it's, you know, out of mind, out of market is the situation that's going on here. And it's one thing for them to do a billion dollar investment in rehabbing the real estate, but they also need to rehab the mental real estate, the mental market share. And the good news is they brought in mischief who can perhaps be mischievous about it. And hopefully we'll get to the outdoor component of this campaign, which I think is to me really the chef's kiss on top of this piece of work. But I feel like strategically we can obsess too much about what people think about the brand or what people think about JCPenney as opposed to what get gets them to think about the category and what those triggers are and linking back to that. In which case I feel like they're just probably not on, on the, on the radar for all the different things that bring someone out of market to, into market. I, I think they're just probably just struggling to be one of those three or four or, you know, you know, at the top of that, that list. So it's less about, you know, like, well, people think JCPenney is old or relevant. I just don't think they think about it at all. So it's about making that kind of hello again, first impression, to be honest, with a piece of creative, which I think is far more confident than it should be, but it brings that confidence and the craft in this spot is through the roof. I mean, the strategic territory. To me, it's dressed for less, but it's a variant, it's impress for less. You know, from a brand that you might be impressed by that you didn't see it coming, but it's going to take a very Particular media plan to really high attention media plan to accommodate this because you need to go in from the very beginning and hold your attention all the way to the end. If you stay to the end in that traditional narrative arc, you're going to get a reward with a surprise, but you're going to have to stay all the way to the end. And then there's that fun like little wink that they have in each of the spots. But if you're passively attentive, you can't just drop this into any old off the shelf media plan. To make it work, they're really going to have to appeal to people for whom generations agree with Vanessa that they just skipped over. And so to find all those people to grow this brand, they're going to have to go out to the great unwashed move. People from none haven't been to JCPenney to one I've done it for the first time. And then it should be cumulative reach, it should be unduplicated reach from that point forward and then bringing that confident message forward. You know, they might put a word in edgewise because impress for less. I mean that's like, that's a value hack. I mean people want that. The problem is quints or like any number of online brands that I could rattle off. Like, you know, the strategy is also like marshalls and T.J. maxx and Ross. It's just they would never execute with the craft that mischief has executed.
- [37:00]
G
When you buy a $250 Runway ready matching set and of a bunch bold print for $72, you're not just buying a $250 Runway ready matching set in a bold print for $72, you're buying this $250 lingering look from the woman with the complimentary Prosecco for 72 do. When you buy a $300 Chef Worthy Dutch oven in Samba Red for $60, you're not just buying a $300 Chef Worthy Dutch Oven in Samba Red for $60,. You're buying the $300 silent approval from your long term boyfriend's overbearing mother for $60.
- [37:59]
Fergus
But I wonder also, I don't know what you guys think, but I mean, there's something to be said about the fact that we are less reliant on brands in buying than we may have been in the past. Because I think there's a lot of people that are buying through on TikTok store and other places where they're not buying off of brands they recognize, but brands that send the cues that make them feel comfortable to decide. And I'm wondering, is that a play, mary, for. For JCPenney, among those who are not familiar with them, that they can sort of wash aside the in store experience, become more of an online brand among a new audience, or is that just too far of a stretch?
- [38:38]
Mary
Yeah, I mean, I don't know ultimately what behavior is most important for them and their business growth and their profitability. I mean, if you have 650 stores that you're spending a billion dollars revitalizing, I would imagine doing something that intrigues somebody to want to come into the physical store is going to need to be a big part of it. I think they've done some, like, mall intercepts and things like that I saw on their Instagram account. Yeah, I mean, I think the. We live in such. I was saying before, like this visual culture where like you just consume videos, content, whether it's from brands or from influencers or whatnot, and the ability to see something and go from inspiration to having it on its way to your front doorstep is instantaneous. Right. And so I think that, you know, even if you're trying to motivate somebody to come into your store, the notion of my first interaction, my first purchase may end up happening online. Right? So that sort of trial, it's very low stakes. It's probably not something that's, you know, going to be at a high price point that they may put, you know, in front of you in the discovery process. They also seem to be doing a fair amount of couponing to reward people who interact with the ads and things like that, getting an additional, you know, 20% off whatnot. So I think they're trying to get people just intrigued and hooked to make that first JCPenney purchase. Right. And then they've got your data, they've got the ability to track you, they've got the ability to find people like you. So definitely drawing on that notion of intrigue to, you know, get whether they're somebody who long forgot about the brand or who've never even really heard of them or had an interaction with them. I think people are so much more open to experimenting because again, they're drawn in by the look of the thing. And I think that's what, you know, in that brilliant insight around, like the, the airline as a Runway, you know, there's this, this sense of we're always on display, we're always being captured and photographed. So however you come to get the look that you're looking for, people are very open and they're certainly Also very promiscuous with buying from lots of different brands. There's not that same like I'm blindly loyal to one retailer or one store.
- [40:38]
Fergus
So Matthew, it's, it's interesting, I know that you guys don't even have at this point that JCPenney in your tracking systems because it's been asleep for decades in terms of significant enough share of.
- [40:51]
Mary
Voice line is zero. So.
- [40:55]
Fergus
But what are you seeing, Matthew? What are you seeing in that category that's, is there anything intriguing in the data?
- [41:02]
Matthew
Yeah, well, we're looking at the category and what drives consideration for brands and that's, you know, the statement is for people like me or relevancy, is this brand relevant to me and my people and who, and who I associate with. And we see that being relevant gets stronger and stronger the older you get as well. And so there's a couple of interesting things here with JCPenney. You know, what is the strategy that you're doing with our old friends down at, at Mischief? Is it do we need a shot in the arm with sales and revenue or are we trying to reintroduce a whole lot of new people to the market? If it's a shot in the arm and an injection of revenue, then leading with the, the, the value base, the pricing, the promotion like that has been shown to be the best driver of, of sales in the short term. If there's a job to be done around bringing the brand back to market, building that long term sustained growth, then we need to go down into the, you know, the emotional familiar, the old school brand building kind of playbook. So I think there are, you know, there are these two jobs that, that they might need to be doing and maybe, you know, maybe Mischief looked, looked into the, into the crystal ball and saw economic uncertainties and terrorists and cost of living and said, you know, this is the time that we're going to continue to come out with price promotions discounting the, the best for less. The next piece that we look at is, is a quality brand still registers super high and driving consideration and preference quality more so than as a, you know, as a value based brand. So being relevant and quality, we'll keep an eye to see whether you know, the, the value for money is something that continues to drive over the next, you know, six to 12 months, especially with the economy. But there's the ingredients are there. It's, I'd be curious to know what the objectives they are hoping to drive and then we'd be in a much better position to say well is it working or is it effective?
- [43:07]
Fergus
The danger with this stuff is that they end up investing for this year and then it goes away. I mean they have got to be thinking multi year long term investment in this at significant spend levels. Vanessa, I mean you're not going to build that contextually right Salience if you don't continue that spend level, level.
- [43:30]
Vanessa
Yeah, I mean there's some tough competitors in this space. I mean I would consider them up against Target. And even with, you know, Target's recent, recent challenges, some of Target's work, even for spring women's fashion scores really well, it's emotionally connecting. It's instantly recognizable as Target. They're getting that, you know, long term and short term you know, scores at, you know, and then other brands like, you know, TJ Maxx and their campaign long standing campaign with Maxinista and introducing that nomenclature of you're a Maxinista if you're smart with getting, you know, the coolest fashions for less. I mean this year they've got some heat that they're up against. And so you know what's working well for the work, it's being recognized as being humorous. That's an interesting space for them to play. You know, the, they've got some consistency in how releasing the ads in the scenario of impressing somebody else, but it's going to take more work and they're really going to have to work hard and deliver.
- [44:41]
Fergus
So let's come back to the out of home. Christopher, you mentioned that. I want to bring it up too because I'm a little conflicted about this and it's open to everybody here to talk through it. Is the QR code on an unbranded ad a PR play or does that shit actually work?
- [45:00]
Christopher
I mean it's totally a PR play but in some ways it feels like the purest expression of the strategic and creative mischief that they're trying to commit here. This idea that you didn't see it coming, you wouldn't have thought this was this brand and that in fact if you Knew if the JCPenney Lou had been on it, you would somehow dismiss it. And so if you hit that QR code on the backside of it, it takes you to the website with a message which pretty much speaks to the surprise that they're imagining the person now hitting the page is now actually hack, you know, having. And so, you know, again it's, it's part of.
- [45:33]
Fergus
But isn't, but isn't that a lot of work to expect the consumer to do? I mean I, I Mean, I get the fact that we're talking about it. So that's, of course, we're, we're kind of irrelevant because we're in the industry.
- [45:45]
Vanessa
I mean, that was the difference between the stunts with Coors Light, right, Like with Mischief, is that you knew that it was Coors Light and it was still an out of home stunt that then got you on the late night talk shows. I mean, I love, love Mischief's stunts are really. And their PR agency, you know, behind the work getting all the late night shows, whether or not it was goldfish with the Chilean sea bass or, you know, or the Coors Light work, this one was definitely, I think, a tougher sell for me because I didn't know if the idea was going to, was, as you know, at the level of Chilean sea bass. But, you know, we tested it, of course, because we test out of home. We test, you know, pretty much any ad that's possible and it does exactly how you think an unbranded out of home ad would do.
- [46:33]
Mary
Not well.
- [46:35]
Christopher
Yeah, and that's like a branded motion stays in motion. So at least they're trying something.
- [46:40]
Vanessa
Yeah, keep trying.
- [46:41]
Mary
The way though that some of that media, I don't know what their exact media plan is. I mean, like, these are digital signs. It's often flashing cycle. So like, to your point, Fergus, like the PR engine behind it to try to get that attention to like land the strategy land. The notion of this is not, you know, know who you would have assumed it was from is it probably wouldn't have reached the level of people discovering it and then talking about it without that PR engine, you know, sort of.
- [47:09]
Vanessa
But I love the use of out of home. I mean, I am eating it up. I mean, every brand that's coming out with some kind of out of home stunt that is a part of their PR plans. I'm obsessed with it. So I'm so glad that they did this and I hope that they do more.
- [47:23]
Fergus
I'm really curious to see where this continues to go as it pushes out and it's going to be exciting stuff. So as we wrap up here, let's talk about our overall impression of either Starbucks or JCPenney. Any last thoughts? We'll start with Christopher, then we'll go to Vanessa and we'll continue on from there. But any last thoughts on either one of these brands? We're talking about this shared theme of revival with these. It's tough to revive a brand and then is revival even the way to think about it?
- [47:53]
Christopher
Yeah, I mean, both these Brands have memory banks, I mean, that they're accessing. And Starbucks, again, they're like cup brew with just memories that they can call upon just to become more prominent in people's decision sets, less so for JCPenney. And so in the end, if you want to move the market, you got to make some memories. And so at some point, we know the natural state of memories to decay, and so you have to keep them fresh. And that's what both these directions are trying to do in different ways. Both trying to bring some confidence, and they're also both bringing craft, you know, and again, like, of the laws and lovers we had at our disposal, I mean, the biggest one we've talked about, double jeopardy. It's like, you can't just tomorrow and say, boom, I want to make the brand the biggest brand. Like, you can't, you can't, you know, get that 20x multiplier that brands get. But like, the first lever we have at our disposal is high quality creative. And that's the one both of these are pushing and pulling and should, if doing it properly, again with the right, right time in market, right mix and right spend to get that excess share of voice. That's, that's the, that's the thing that they're, that they're using to, to their favor to get their unfair advantage.
- [48:59]
Fergus
Vanessa?
- [49:00]
Vanessa
Yeah, so for, I think they're in two totally different places. So from a Starbucks standpoint, the work is really strong. The work is really strong. The music, the energy, the stories about the people. What I would say is focus on more of that storytelling and those human, those human stories and maybe tell one story really well rather than a variety of employees in the store and see where that gets you, because there is some negativity about employees and human rights and things of that nature. So that's an area of focus for JCPenney. They're just not coming from a place where J.C. penney's top of mind. And so what's working for the work is the humor, the repeatable, fluent scenario that they've got going on. Keep, keep trialing, keep experimenting and make sure that you're consistent.
- [49:51]
Fergus
How about you, Mary?
- [49:53]
Mary
I mean, I think, you know, just like looking ahead, it's, it's a, for both of these brands, I think this holiday season is going to be very interesting and crucial. Right. Because, you know, for, for a retailer, how do they approach what is expected to be a tumultuous holiday season? And, and how does their proposition carry through? And in an emotional way, and I think With Starbucks and their red cut up, you know, efforts over the years, like, I think seeing how they take this new brand or revitalize brand direction and execute it in a really important moment for them. So, so that's what I'm kind of looking for is do they bring these strategies and continue to activate them in sort of a critical calendar period for both. For both brands.
- [50:31]
Fergus
Yeah. And then finally, Matthew, I mean, Starbucks.
- [50:34]
Matthew
Has some of the strongest brand health you'll see across the board. And they've got the benefit of the history of such an iconic brand brand. There's probably a job to be done reintroducing where people have fallen out of love with Starbucks, but they are seeing great results with that younger audience, whether it's the range of flavors, the products, the tiktokness of what they offer. And so again, who's the customer they're going after, what's the segment and making sure that they're showing up in the right way. With JCPenney, I'd love to know what the objective is for them right now. Now, are they trying to reintroduce people and make JCPenney relevant in 2025 or are they trying to introduce the brand to absolutely, you know, new people who had no idea about it. And this is the, you know, this is the, the thing that only mischief and JCPenney will know, but the work that they've put out and the way they're showing up, show up, show up consistently and it will absolutely be be tracking the journey of the brand help for JCPenney over the years to come.
- [51:36]
Fergus
Yeah, it's really interesting because both brands suffer from the same challenge, which is if you're trying to center things for Starbucks around a physical experience, you now have to redesign or add to or make shifts in your physical store presence. The same at JCPenney. Decades of not having invested in store locations, asking people to come in and be blind to the way the store is decorated and structured and signed is a huge challenge, which maybe the play for JCPenney is getting more people to buy online. But it's also going to be interesting to see whether the brand can really encourage people to forget or overlook that reality of the in store experience, both in terms of physical structure as well as the customer service. So tough things. It's like the chicken and the egg thing. You can't wait five years to then improve things. You have to just, you've got to begin to market into an example existing system. All right, guys, thank you so much. It is Matthew Herbert, co founder and co CEO of tracksit New York City, Vanessa Chin, svb, marketing at System One in Chicago. And our guest this month, Mary Bakarich, group strategy Director at Johannes Leonardo in New York City, and Christopher Owens, head of Brand strategy at the Richards Group TRG in Dallas. Thanks, guys. Awesome.
- [52:57]
Mary
Thank you.
- [52:58]
Vanessa
Thank you.
- [52:59]
Fergus
And you can see all of this work on our website for both of these brands. And we'll see everybody next month on the spot. Have a great week, everybody. Bye.