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A
This on the Spot series is brought to you by System One. What if you could predict whether an ad or product or an idea was going to connect with consumers and be successful even before it launched? That's where System One comes in. They're the creative effectiveness platform that uses emotional measurement and norms to help brands predict what will truly drive growth and how to further improve it. From new product concepts and packaging to super bowl spots and social Campaigns. System System 1 enables you to create with confidence across all of your creative. To learn more, check them out@systemone group.com that's system1group.com and buy tracksuit Tracksuit is the affordable always on brand tracking tool that helps marketers and agencies answer the question is what we're doing working companies pay $100,000, which I still can't believe, or even more for brand tracking which is out of the question for most modern brands. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting using best in class practices to craft your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit gives you brand tracking you can afford. Check them out@gotracksuit.com that's gotracksuit.com so welcome to this month's episode of on the Spot, which is a series that we run in each month. We kind of mix it in with our other episodes. So on the Spot is where planners talk about brands they've never worked on. And as we always like to describe it, it's more sort of morning radio than evening news. So it's a little less serious and more sort of fun and casual. But before we get started, I want to talk about what is going to be an exciting two weeks for this show and a very big deal to me. Number one, we are going to be live. I mean this episode is now dropping on Monday, June 15th in three days. That is on Thursday, June 18th. This week we are going to be live at Carmichael lynch in Minneapolis, a great city with a great history and legacy of creativity. We are bringing together the CEOs and chief strategy officers from various agencies coming together at Carmichael and you're invited to be there. It's 5:30pm to 7:30. You can get your your tickets on our website@onstrategyshowcase.com under the Live Tour tab. We have got Stacy Janicki, CEO of Carmichael Lynch. We've got Nikki Baker, CEO and former chief creative officer of Fallon, Jessica Hendrich, CEO of CarmcVoie Donor. We have Lachlan Badenoch, Chief Strategy Officer at Carmichael. And since there is a possibility that Stacy Janicki will not be able to attend because she's having some surgery. She's confident she can make it. But if she does not make it, we have the fabulous Randy Hughes, who is the creative lead on all of the phenomenal Subaru work that Carmichael lynch has been doing for. I mean, I think it's like 18 years. His name is Randy Hughes and he will be there as our sort of backup quarterback in case Stacy cannot make it. So it is going to be a fantastic night. I hope that you'll join us. Then we come back from Carmichael lynch the day after and we are then headed to Cannes where I am partnering with our brilliant friends at the Effies. You know, we are the official podcast partner of the Effies and this is a big deal for me because I've never been to Cannes and not only am I going, but we are hosting a phenomenal event. And I think you can just drop everything else that you're doing on Tuesday afternoon if you're in Cannes and come and hang out with us. We are going to be in the Audi A theater, which is in the palais, starting at 2pm Cannes time, obviously finishing up around 4:30. Now, what we're doing through this two hour, roughly two and a half hour period of time, we are going to be talking about building a culture of effectiveness. Now effectiveness is usually measured based upon the impact that a campaign or an initiative or a product launch, whatever it might be, makes in terms of results and effectiveness. But this is about a culture of effectiveness. It's a recognition that great work that delivers in results, it isn't a fluke. It doesn't just happen by chance. The chances of it happening are increased significantly by having a culture of effectiveness both at the agency and at the brand. So we're gonna be talking about that through the lens of some of the world's best campaigns. So I'm thrilled to be conducting three roundtables. The first one starts at 2 o'cl. They're like roughly 30 minute roundtables. We have voices from mischief, from EOS, from Uber eats, from Aldi, from BMF, the fantastic agency in Australia, ESAF Bank, VCCP, McDonald's and monks are all a part of this conversation across these three roundtables starting at 2pm and we also in between our roundtables, so it'll be roughly a 10 to 15 minute break between them. The lines intelligence folks as well as ipsos are going to be sharing some insights and observations from data across many of these brilliant campaigns. So it's a way of getting both a qualitative point of view from the people that I have a conversation with and then the quantitative insights coming from Lion's Intelligence and also from our friends at Ipsos. So I really hope to see you there. It's going to be fantastic and I'm hoping that I make it through can healthy and still standing up straight. So that's my goal. Now back to today's episode. This is a great one. This is on the Spot. We are talking about two brands today. We're talking about Nike and we're talking about Maker's Mark. Now the thing to keep in mind is when we recorded this episode, which was roughly a week ago, Nike had not yet released their epic film that they released at least their first one. We don't know if it's the one and only, but we were assuming in our conversation that Nike was taking more of a sort of audience specific and sort of how we should talk about it. Maybe sort of a sub segment orientation towards things going into fashion, going into sport, going into celebrity, going into creator and having less of the big launch epic film like what Adidas did. So our conversation is talking about that. Was that signaling something? Well, in fact it wasn't actually signaling anything because a couple of days after we recorded they released their big epic film, their first one. And so we but it does, it doesn't make this conversation any less compelling. So keeping that in mind, we have a couple of strategists joining us today. Yanni Weiderholm. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. Weiderholm. Sorry Yanni, I screwed that up. Is head of social and group Creative director at TBWA Chayete in Los Angeles. Amelia Renshaw is head of strategy for Lucky Generals, that brilliant agency in New York city. Vanessa Chin, SVP marketing at System1 as always. And we have Rags Pratap is Growth North America for Tracksuit in New York. So this is actually Rag's first time joining the table. So it's a ton of fun to have him here. So this is on the spot, Nike and Maker's Mark. You can see the creative work on our website@onstrategyshowcase.com underneath this episode page. And we'd love to get your thoughts as always@hellonstrategyshowcase.com you can reach me there and you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Hope you enjoy this one. We are many times wrong, but that's only because we have opinions and you can't hold us to our opinions as strategists we're constantly right, but when we get together like this, we can be wrong. So we never want to give the impression that our client work isn't beyond reproach. So last Thursday night, we were in Kansas City, and Vanessa joined me at the roundtable in Kansas City. We were at Barkley OKRP talking about Heartland Creativity. What was that like for you, Vanessa, to be live? Because we always just do this virtually. You got to meet not for the first time, but, you know, handful of times.
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B
Yeah, I found that when you're networking and kind of shouting and then it's harder to get on the mic.
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A
Oh, tell me about that. When you're. When you're. Oh, yeah, yeah. Because. Because why your voice is.
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B
I'm talking. I'm. I'm talking. I'm meeting people. And then. Yeah, I needed, like, a cough drop and some water before.
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A
I know. The next morning I woke up because I did two shows in Kansas City. We did one with the Kansas City Chiefs, and then we did the live show. And the next morning I was like, I can hardly talk because I was shouting. Even at dinner afterwards, I felt like I was shouting trying to get my voice out. But of course, Julia was also there, Rags, and was at the roundtable too. So good to have you guys on the tour. So welcome to Yanni and to Amelia. They are our guest misfit strategists for this episode. Amelia is at Lucky Generals in New York City. Everybody loves all the shit that comes out of Lucky Generals, and we've had them on the show a lot. Love their work. And, of course, Yanni. We were live at TBWA like, I think two years ago, and I'm hoping we'll do it again this fall with Jan Costello and the whole crew. So welcome to both of you guys.
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C
Thank you.
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D
Thanks so much for having us.
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A
We have to figure out, like, little clapping noises. I know I can actually do this. I wonder if I can actually. I got to figure out how to do this. So we can drop it in, but. Okay, so we have two brands today. We're doing Maker's Mark, and we're going to be talking about Nike Maker's Mark, because we're actually going to be in Carmichael lynch in two weeks to do a live show, and they were talking about Maker's Mark, and I'm a Bourbon. I wouldn't call myself a bourbon lover, but I couldn't tell the difference between a call brand and top shelf. But I do love an Old Fashioned. So we were talking about Maker's Mark. And they were talking about some of the work that they just did at Carmichael. So that is why we've picked Maker's Mark. We picked Nike because Nike came out, of course, with their World cup campaign. I did Adidas came out with their work. And there's a lot of buzz in the industry about the differences between these two campaigns and what they do and do not signal. What's interesting about this is that Nike ditched the traditional sort of blockbuster World cup film. Instead, it's running 12 weeks of a serialized campaign that kicks off, or has kicked off back in May with a Polaroid style photo featuring 42 athletes and various cultural figures. The strategic logic, according to this is audience fragmentation. Each celebrity carries a different fan base. What do we think of this as a piece of communication? Amelia? It's different for Nike because Nike has generally done these big, epic films, but they seem to have left that off of the mix. I don't know if we're gonna miss it because we're early in that campaign so far. We don't really know what's coming. Some early stuff is leaking out. Does it. Does it signal anything in your mind?
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D
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a big film that rolls out at some point during the 12 weeks. But, you know, I'll be honest, when I saw the post with the Polaroids on social, I did roll my eyes a little bit because it just feels a little expected. Of course, they have this huge universe of athletes and celebrities like Kim Kardashian that they can tap into. But what has actually gotten me excited is, I think, seeing it side by side with Adidas and realizing that they're actually operating on two different definitions of what the World cup is. I think the Adidas spot, beautiful, big thematic film. Timothee Chalamet. It's telling a story. It's building a world. Makes a lot of sense for them. They are the sponsor of the cup officially. They have the match ball. They have the official apparel. And so going out big, out the gate with something like that makes a ton of sense for them. They are, you know, really defining the World cup as this monocultural moment. It is global. It's a world, you know, a point when everyone's tuning in. Whereas I think Nike, in a weird way, is a bit of a challenger here. You know, I think it's smart for them to really think about this is. It's not just a monocultural moment. It is this moment with all of these different fandoms coming at it from different vantage points. They're not necessarily just tuning in for the sport, they're tuning in for the stories around the sport. And so I am really excited to see what they do. I think I feel like this is almost the second coming of the Barbie movie rollout. And I think. I don't know if other folks on the line have gotten that brief that I certainly have. I won't say which clients, but I think if anyone can do that, well, it's Nike because they have that investment, they have all of these connections. And so I am really excited to see how they really captivate audiences around all of these different vantage points around the sport itself.
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C
No, I was going to say, I. I definitely agree. I think when I saw the social post, I had a bit of a eye roll there as well. But I think that when you zoom out and, and look at the two brands taking a completely different approach, it gets exciting. And I think Nike, who has really focused on, you know, winning and the sport of it all, I kind of love that they understood that the World cup is going to be a marathon for brands. And their approach takes that into account in the sense that I'm already seeing the first collabs hitting my feed and it feels a little bit organic in the sense that, you know, they're going to basically break through with multiple things throughout the course of time. And I don't think that they are looking at this as a sports event either. They are looking at it as a cultural event. And so strategically, I am thinking that they're, they're taking a very smart approach to how long you need to activate and sort of what they want to achieve. They're putting product at the center of it, but they're also able to get sort of the. The cultural cachet. And Adidas, obviously creating this beautiful film that's, I think, causing a lot of ad envy in the industry in a lot of ways. Coming out of the newly launched Lola. I love that work as well for a different reason. But I think Nike is thinking strategically about how they want to maximize attention and their goals during this cultural event. Right.
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A
Every time I've talked with the folks inside the organization, they talk about everything being through the lens of the athlete, the voice of the athlete. And when I see this sort of stuff, I begin to worry that there's still this blending of street street art, street culture and athletes where it used to be athletes solely. And I worried that that is what sort of got them off brand, where it opened up opportunities for Brands like Adidas and for ON and others to come in and really kill them in certain markets. I don't know if anybody would agree with that.
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E
Yeah, I would say so. I think there's no real good reason to sugarcoat it. Nike has seen a pretty tough 12 to 24 months. I think trying to act in a way and show a point of difference is important. I think diving in a bit deeper around this, Yani kind of talked about using this kind of cultural moment or really trying to gather attention from more than just the athlete fan base. I think we've got Kim Kardashian, there's a number of different rappers or celebrities or movie stars that might not be associated to the sport, but what that does is it taps into a very important audience. And I think before we were talking about AI it was the conversation about Gen Z.
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A
Right.
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E
And I think the data itself actually says something that's really, really stark. So in the sportswear category in the US itself, just looking at 18 to 34 year olds, Nike is still the leader just at pure awareness. But when you actually dive in a bit deeper down to more that loyalty metric or people who prefer Nike versus the others, they sit at 47% and that is the next competitor to them is Adidas at 11%. So there is nearly 35% of the population that see Nike as their preferred brand within a Gen Z audience in the U.S. so you know, that's something that's I think really important and I think quite aligned to the way they're thinking about building this kind of cultural moment that will last the entirety of the campaign of the tournament as well.
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A
So that seems like it's a positive story. Is that fair to say with that level of preference for the brand?
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E
Yeah, and I think it's an important factor that they need to consider to think about how they drive the right message moving forward versus say Adidas approach with this big spectacle, kind of one off theatrical, really emotional movie that they've released.
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A
But I would have thought rags that Nike probably at one point was in the 60s. I'm not saying that you have the data at hand to be that to kind of support that. But going down to the 30s means that 60 odd percent of people don't see Nike as being a brand for them, which doesn't feel that good.
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E
Well, there's no probably way to sugarcoat it. You are right. Like things are on the decline as we are seeing more disruptors out there starting to kind of take control across different markets and different functions of sportswear. In total. So I think it's really about how do we maintain that foothold, but also continue to drive in areas that they are performing well in as well.
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A
And then my other thought would be for the Adidas spot, which I love. That could have ended with a Nike logo. What makes that Amelia an Adidas spot? I just find it all sorts of blurs in my mind.
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D
Yeah, I've been asking myself that same question. And I think the difference is the choice to work with someone like Timothee Chalamet. I do think that that is their way of showing that this is more than sport. It is culture, it's storytelling, it's creativity. You know, I don't know how well that works long term, but I think for that spot, and I mean, it feels a little bit like Timothy is recreating his Marty supreme character a little bit.
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A
And he's an amazing. His acting is actually. He's a pretty brilliant actor. I was amazed by that.
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D
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think it works best as the five minute film as it was created to be. I'm curious to see over the duration of the World cup, how they maintain that momentum and continue that story, because I think it feels a little bit like Adidas is committed to creating a world and Nike is creating a universe. They want to create that surround sound around the World cup for the whole 12 weeks and dominate your feed. And, you know, I think, and I think part of that choice that Nike has made is because they see Adidas starting to step on their toes a little bit and create spots that, to your point, could end with a Nike logo. And so I think this is their answer to that in many ways. And really trying to own culture and use their brand also as a platform for other brands like palace and Jacques Mousse and these celebs to kind of reinterpret in their own way, which I think feels very native to Gen Z and kind of how they're already approaching culture as something to remix and play with. So I think, I guess only time will tell who wins and how this plays out over the course of the World Cup. But I am curious. It feels a little bit like they're. They're making two different bets on what is effective in a giant cultural moment like the World Cup.
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C
For me, on the Adidas work, what makes it Adidas is that they were in the neighborhood, right? And I think that they sort of tried to own the backyard and sort of these spaces and placements that are not the main stage. And I love that this film uses that space as the setting. Right. And there's a little bit of nostalgia that they. They're playing with, obviously, some of their most successful products that have gone sort of mainstream, whether it's ambas or gazelles and whatnot. Like, they are doubling down on sort of nostalgia reimagined for today in product. But I see a little bit of that in the work as well, that, you know, it's the friends together, you know, riding to the. To the occasion. And, you know, that may not be exactly how things happen, but it is that neighborhood, grassroots type of approach.
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D
Yeah, it's very much the underdog, the play, the joy of the sport. Whereas Nike is very much about the excellence, the fans, the culture. Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
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A
Yeah, that's a good distinction, because Nike always talks about themselves as the voice of the athlete, and they distinctly have said in the past that that means it's not the voice of the fan. So maybe that is a clear distinction. But I'd love to see Nike just be more about the voice of the athlete and maybe get back to that. Maybe it needs to evolve, because maybe you can't go back in order to disrupt. There needs to be a big disruption, and maybe the proof will be in how this campaign rolls out. Vanessa, because we don't know, to Amelia's point, if there's going to be a big film that launches. We don't know maybe the big films at the end rather than the beginning. So it's interesting to sort of look at it. Maybe what we can do is talk about the Adidas spot and how that worked, or what's your general thoughts on what we're talking about here?
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B
Yeah, it feels like Adidas and Nike are very much. I mean, they're smart marketers and they're playing in the area that they have been playing in. So from where I'm sitting, it's very consistent to where they've been. So, you know, Adidas with the. You've got this, as Yana was talking about, the fact that that campaign is all about the people that are supporting the athletes. Right. So in the backyard, or Timothee Chalamet organizing and rallying his team. It's very inclusive, it's shared. And when you think about the World Cup, I think we're at a really, really fun moment where this is really, in the United States, at least. Like, this is finally a major recognized event that everyone is turning into. And you're seeing different approaches with the work. When you see the reaction to World cup work, US versus uk. There's a much stronger emotional reaction in the UK because it's baked into the culture and where it's been on star rating like average so far is 3.6. In the US it's 3. But four years ago for the US it was 2.6. And you know, you're seeing brands go like Nike, who's going to go right into the sports. They're going to have a series on Amazon prime and it's like that street soccer, very niche, but exciting nonetheless for Gen Z. But then you've got like Lays, they had a five star ad, they brought in Will Ferrell. They recognize this concept of everyone's going to be on the bandwagon and this is like an Olympics moment and you're bringing people together and you're creating campaigns that people are going to talk about, watch together and share and have this shared experience where they enjoy the work together versus from the Nike standpoint with Polaroid, it is going to be a lot of littles. And from a marketing effective standpoint, there is a major debate happening at the moment of high attention media versus kind of the digital ecosystem, more personalized world and which of these approaches are going to win out. And I think that there's a lot of marketing effective folks watching and seeing what happens.
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D
I think it is really interesting to see how they're adapting their brand and treating these partners as creators. I love the work that they did with Pat Dallas as one of the first kind of collaborations. I thought that the film that they made really spoke to that market and you know, England and their pride around their team. I think we'll see more of that. So what I think is fascinating is a brand like Nike that has such rigid brand guidelines. They know who they are and they've been operating in that same way for so long and kind of losing relevance a little bit recently. I think it's an interesting play to see what happens when they actually open the aperture a little bit and use their brand as actually a lens that they put on, you know, a palace or a Jacques Mousse or a Kim Kardashian and skims. But you know, I do think I would be surprised if it didn't pair with, you know, a big anthemic film at some point in the 12 weeks. I could be wrong on that, but yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic about where it's going.
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A
Okay, so Vanessa, you actually, you actually rated or you tested the Adidas spot, right?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Okay, so we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna Guess it. Cause you said three point something earlier, but you weren't referring to the Adidas spot, were you?
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B
Well, I've got four scores for Adidas because I tested the. The 40, the 40 second, and the five minute in the US and the UK so let's go with. I'll. I'll just share the highest scoring one.
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A
Okay, you got it. So let's go around. I'm gonna say for the Adidas spot that it scored a. I'm gonna go with 4.8 because I'm optimistic. Okay. How about. How about Amelia?
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D
I would say, yeah, 4.5, definitely. Maybe even higher.
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C
Gosh, I feel like I was so off on the previous one, but now I want to be cautious.
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A
Everybody's always off 4.3. Man. This is all pretty good. Rags, what do you think week?
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E
It's pretty wedged in there. I'm gonna go 4.9 just because of all the different Beckham hairstyles that made an appearance that was pretty cool to see.
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A
Yeah.
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D
Yeah. The de. Aged Beckham scared me a little bit.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was kind of wild.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Okay, what do you. What do you got, Vanessa?
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E
Tell us.
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B
Well, Amelia's winner, winner, ticket, dinner. It's a 4.5, and the highest score was the 42nd in the U.K. interesting.
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D
Not the longer film.
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B
Is that just because five minutes for. When you're. When you're in a testing environment.
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D
Yeah.
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B
You. You lose some folks.
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A
Yeah. I mean, that is an amazing. What did you say the category is in the threes? Low three.
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B
So in the uk, the average for. So we've had a hundred World cup ads so far, and in. Which is a lot. There's a lot of World cup advertisers. And so in the UK, 3.6 is the average, which is pretty high. In the US it's 3.
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A
Man, oh, man. Let's talk about the category that is sort of spirits and whiskeys. It's got a lot of players in there. An awful lot of players, I suppose. What do you think the challenge is that a brand like Maker's Mark faces in the industry right now?
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C
Yeah, I think it's interesting looking at the work, too, but I think if we talk more generic, generically, people are drinking less. I think that's been an interesting notion that a lot of brands in the alcohol sp space are battling with, especially with audience getting getting younger. Right. For this kind of special drink, though, I think doubling down on the moments has been one strategy. Right. You're not having as much alcohol, but you're Going to make it special. And so these brands that have a long history and sort of savoring the moment kind of work is what we've been seeing. But at the same time, how do you do that in a way that feels disruptive and different in the category? That's pretty crowded as well. And so I think it's a double ended sort of challenge of the audience and audience getting younger, people drinking less. But then also, how do you stand out as a brand without then only leaning on heritage, for example, because that's not gonna do it anymore.
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A
What do you think, Emilia?
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D
Yeah, you know, to build on that. I have spent my time on Diageo, you know, earlier in my career. I've worked on Johnnie Walker, I've worked on Crown.
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A
Ah, I didn't know that. Crown Royal.
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D
Yeah, I had a very fun Johnnie Walker Blue brief that I won't talk about now. But, you know, it's interesting.
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A
Like this bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue.
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C
Yeah, yeah.
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D
I think the challenge we were trying to solve is that it usually sits up on someone's shelf and it's not something that people actually go to to drink regularly because it is so special. So kind of finding new occasions to get people to drink Johnnie Walker Blue more regularly. But, you know, I think to your question about who does it well in the category, I do actually think that Johnnie Walker does a great job. I did not touch the most recent work, but, you know, I've admired it from afar and I, I really love it because they build a world. And I think that this is a category that is particularly challenging because from the outside looking in, unless you are a connoisseur, it does feel very similar and it is so occasion based and really creating moments for these brands and these products. And so I think the brands that do it best in this category really come out with a strong attitude and a point of view. And I think that Johnnie Walker has done a great job of it. What's interesting to me about Maker's Mark is I think that they've tried to pull apart from the category a bit by playing in this world of nature and kind of trying to take it outside of the bar, outside of the home a little bit and kind of bring some of those themes to life, to really create a world for themselves. And it does feel distinct from maybe what I've seen recently where it's so in bar, it's so occasion based. And so, you know, over time I think if they really build equity in that, it could be pretty effective for them.
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A
So I Wanted to read you guys something. I didn't write this. I'm going to read it to you though. It came from Claude. I thought this was interesting. So the agency Doe Anderson, which is still around today, it worked on maker's mark from 1973 until 2022. That's nearly 50 years of working on the brand. And the brand started out doing sort of matter of fact anti advertising advertising. And you know, one of the early works that was sort of understated, there was a famous billboard called A Hunk, if you're proud to be redneck. And the brand leaned into this and they've done this for a lot of years, which is they always, if you see a bottle of Maker's Mark, they dip the bottle into red wax. So that sort of has become its distinctive brand asset. And the work over those years was apparently incredibly successful. 35,000 cases to 3 million cases of makers mark sold before 2022. But I think the issue was that it also kept things sort of static culturally. Leo Burnett then took up the brand with Mark make youe mark in 2023, which to me, Amelia felt very Johnny Walker. Like it was this idea of being a little bit more progressive and being a little bit less conservative and make youe Mark. It was, they say, a deliberate break from the heritage heavy playbook. A Maker's Mark first attempt to attach the brand to broader life philosophy that then led to Carmichael Lynch. So according to this, Leo Burnett only had it for two or three years. That has led to perfectly unreasonable, which is the work for Carmichael Rags. Tell us a little bit about where actually Makers Mark stands and the data as a brand.
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E
Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting kind of looking at the insights across brand and in terms of what we're looking at in this whiskey bourbon category. Whiskey Bourbon itself makes up about 32% of the total American market. So about 32% of Americans have said they consume whiskey bourbon. I imagine you might be one of those as well, Fergus.
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A
Thank you.
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E
But I mean, as it stands today, you've talked a little about Johnnie Walker. I think Jack Daniels is one that really stands out as this kind of really strong legacy player in the space. But Maker's Mark sits at around 56% awareness within the category itself, where players like Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker, Jim Beam are closer to towards 75 to 80%. So there is still a bit of a gap in the Delta, but really a job to be done to continue to build off capturing more broader awareness of the space as well.
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A
And is it in terms of how it's perceived and how is it different than sort of Jim Beam and other brands? Does it sort of have a territory that's unique to it? Because it doesn't feel that way. It feels like a very cluttered, similar category.
- [34:03]
E
Yeah. In the same way, I think Jani kind of talked about, it's highly competitive, less people are drinking, therefore your addressable market is becoming tighter. And really trying to communicate that is proving challenging. I think the way that you talked about these campaigns are trying to position themselves as this more premium aspect. So they are slightly tiered towards the top end of premium. But things around relatability being kind of distinctive or like no others are still kind of tracking towards the middle of the category, but still a really long
- [34:35]
A
way behind for makers or for makers
- [34:38]
E
itself, for makers themselves. So as an example, you know, we look at something like a kind of a distinctive perception around is it a brand that is like no other? As we describe it, it sits at 25% of people would actually resonate directly to that statement within the category itself. Whereas you look at Jack Daniels sits closer to about 35% of the category.
- [35:01]
A
And is that amongst drinkers or non drinkers?
- [35:04]
E
We're talking to people of the brand. Yeah, we're talking to people in the last three months that have purchased or consumed whiskey or bourbon.
- [35:13]
A
So, Vanessa, the ultimate question becomes what's happening with the way these ads are testing? And we're going to guess by the way, we're going to each guess how they rated. But first of all, what's interesting in the category?
- [35:29]
B
Yeah, you know, I actually found myself sitting next to someone from Kentucky on Friday night at a party. And so I just talked our ear off for at least 20 to 30 minutes about Maker's Mark and what you.
- [35:42]
A
When you're from Kentucky, you know, everything about Maker's Mark.
- [35:45]
D
It's very.
- [35:46]
B
I mean, you talked about the heritage. It's very important. So it is real that they bring Maker's Mark to every party with them. So you see that in the work, this element of them, you know, showing the bottle and making the bottle present at the party. They also have this ambassador program where most people in Kentucky are part of the ambassador program and anyone can join where you. You put your name on a barrel. Like you. It's like, you know, adopting an animal.
- [36:16]
D
It's.
- [36:16]
B
You're adopting, you know, this barrel of, you know, a bourbon. So it's very, very important to the fabric of that community. I think this category does have a lot of distinctiveness. There's Elements of sensory pleasure. And then there's campaigns that are about, you know, not what you're drinking, but who you're drinking with. You know, here it's about, you know, this premium there. It's really a quality play, this premium quality. The great lengths that you go to, you know, that they go to connecting the dots between the wax and the great, you know, they haven't given that up as much as expensive as it is to, you know, hand dipping.
- [36:54]
A
Every bottle hand dipped. Yeah.
- [36:56]
B
And, you know, that, you know, they're relating that to the, you know, the quality of the bourbon. Yeah. I mean, it's. I think it's a very distinctive place and I think that each of the brands in the category are trying to create their own. Their own space. What's really happening, though, for Maker's Mark with this particular campaign is that they're starting over. There are things that they're bringing to the table, like, you know, the bottle at the end of the work, but they're really saving those distinctive assets for the end of the work. And. But what they're creating, which they're going to have to stick to, is this fluent scenario of, you know, the great lengths that someone goes to with the ice, with the lemons, with the other things. With that. You have huge potential as something that you can repeat, but you have to do it, you have to stick with it for. For at least a few years, which they've done in the past, to build on that.
- [37:50]
D
You know, I think my one ding on this campaign is, I think they say perfectly unreasonable and it's such a brand truth. To your point of dipping the wax, I would love to see them take that beyond film. You know, how did they. How does that really. Yeah, kind of shape their comms thinking and where they show up and who they partner with. What is that perfectly unreasonable comm strategy look like? And I think to your point, Vanessa, over time there's so much potential to build equity in that. And so if I had one piece of advice for that team over there, it's go beyond those scenarios in that film and think bigger because I think that it's a really interesting platform they
- [38:27]
A
do point to and shift the sort of obsession from the brand to the individual. I mean, both of those spots point to somebody who believes in craft in their own lives. So it's about the drinker, their behavior versus the product and its behavior. So I kind of love that. So let's play one of these spots first. We'll play Ice Cube. Basically what you're Looking at is a guy who goes out into nature to find the perfect clean water Ice Cube, this massive big block of ice. He then travels through other environments. In getting back home, it's like a massive journey that takes him two days to get home. The ice block is still there, ready, and then he chops it up and uses it in his drink. So his obsession with purity and craft is reflected in the story.
- [39:29]
D
Better get into what you got to get into. Better get into it now.
- [39:35]
B
No slack, please.
- [39:38]
A
We're all unreasonable about something.
- [39:41]
B
For us, it's creating an uncompromisingly delicious
- [39:44]
A
bourbon, handcrafted, consciously made maker's mark. Perfectly unless unreasonable. Okay, so we're going to guess. Can we guess?
- [39:54]
B
Yeah. Before we guess, question, are we looking at the 60 or the 30? Because they did score differently.
- [39:59]
A
Which one scored best?
- [40:01]
B
The one that scored best. The 60. Just for the group. Star ratings go from 1 to 5.9. And the category average for wine and spirits in the US is 2.2. So keep that in mind.
- [40:15]
A
Okay, so we've all seen Ice Cube Amelia rated on a scale of 1 to 5.9. And then we're going to go around then we're going to expose the truth and be raged by Vanessa.
- [40:28]
D
I'm going to go with a 3.5. And I think part of that is just, I think, to your point, Vanessa, the brand attribution at the end might skew that score a little bit, but I do think, think it's in the 3 range for me.
- [40:43]
A
Okay, Yani.
- [40:46]
C
So I accidentally did look at the YouTube comments, and they do give me a sense that people really, really, really like this ad. And so that's gonna put mine higher. I think it's gonna be in the four. So maybe 4.1.
- [41:04]
A
Okay, Rags, what do you want to do?
- [41:07]
E
I'm gonna go with 4.5. 2.
- [41:11]
A
Okay. I am going to go with 3.0. And the winner is Vanessa Fergus.
- [41:22]
B
Fergus, you are the winner. You're the winner. It's a 3.1. And I do want to say that this is one of the highest scoring ads for makers Mark in our database, second to their holiday campaign where they had the wax unravel through the entire building. And so you had the distinctive asset from the beginning. The filmmaking and the storytelling in this is really incredible. And I think that just goes to the craft that went into this. And people respond to really, really great films that are produced. With that said, it took about 44 seconds for any kind of significant brand recognition to happen. And so the fluency score was a 61 out of 100.
- [42:06]
E
Wow.
- [42:06]
A
So fluency is, is. Is awareness of the brand correctly attributing
- [42:11]
B
the brand to the work and that does affect your emotional reaction to the work. So 3.1 is a pretty significant star rating considering they weren't sure who the brand was for. But it, it would be quite higher once people. This again, this is a brand new campaign, so I don't want to knock it, but you do need to kind of recognize who the brand is for for people to really open their hearts and emotionally respond to the work.
- [42:36]
A
But you've also said that really over time that doesn't change. So it's not that frequency of exposure really has. That makes a difference in terms of fluency.
- [42:46]
B
Affluent device or fluent scenario can, can wear in. So but you know, you need something to stick to. So it has to be something very significant that that's, that's recognized.
- [43:02]
A
Yeah, I mean the thing, the thing is always the idea that for. Do you, do you risk losing people and their attention by having it branded overtly early or is this not about being overt about it? It's just about subtle cues that, that sort of create an understanding of the brand behind it without it being overt about it. Right.
- [43:24]
B
I think we underestimate how positive you can feel about seeing a brand's work that you understand. I know that we like to talk about, you know, everyone's avoiding and skipping ads, but you can elicit very, very strong positive emotions for a recognized advertisement.
- [43:43]
E
Yeah, I think, Fergus, you said it right. Distinctive brand assets was one of the things you mentioned about Maker's Mark at the start. Right. And you talk about the red, the wax, that kind of dipped aspect. It's distinctive. You know it, you understand it. You might not even drink whiskey, but people will recognize that. And to Venice's point, you're 45 seconds in before you probably realize like I still was on the journey, I was still curious to see where it went. But I think to that point there's probably a lot of people who thought otherwise.
- [44:11]
C
This I feel like is an ongoing discussion. I feel like DBAs, brand worlds and I think that the brands that have figured out or crafted DBAs that can be embedded into the story, I think are winning in the sense that when you go to testing, even if you take, let's say the logo out the DBA stands and it is connected to brand. And, and so I think that's an interesting lens to put on it because it's not about putting the, the brand up front. If you know, it means slapping a logo over in graphics, right? Like those are cues that tell somebody to tune out before they even get a chance to like get sucked into the story. Right. But in this one, specifically why the YouTube comments were an interesting place, I felt like was that yes, it was a 60 and it took its time, but people were sharing sort of their stories of what, what they are thinking about when they see the work. And I, I haven't seen a lot of that kind of commentary for a while. And that was interesting that it did trigger people to sort of share what standards they have in a way in their life and things like that. And maybe it was just a couple of people, but I thought that was interesting as well.
- [45:31]
A
I think most people will give the highest level of credit to Apple's product work as being phenomenal examples of how to do modern day storytelling. But am I wrong in thinking that there aren't really any Apple cues in the early starts of those spots? And so are we sort of getting am I wrong number one? I don't know, Vanessa. Also, it's like it seems that if we run the risk if we brand too early, if we're not brilliant storytellers, we gotta be brilliant storytellers number one, to keep people engaged and to keep them to want more. I totally get that. But I do worry about do we turn people off if we brand too early. And I think Apple, Apple. Is Apple doing it subtly or it's not doing it overtly but is it doing it even subtly in your opinion?
- [46:25]
B
I think that Apple has created their brand style guide and the rules that they follow for themselves and all of their partners. I've worked on Apple campaign before, they're very strict and you know, when you think about a cross channel. So whether or not it's a digital asset, their website to their TV to their at a home, they are surrounding you with consistency across the board. And so you know, you're not relying on just one asset. They, they often put the product really lately if you, if you notice, at the center of most of it. So you know, it may not be an Apple logo, but you can see the product presence in the work, in most of the work and just the art direction, the art direction, their copywriting style. Six word stories. It's like through and through. They've got so many layers of brand guides that they follow and you just instantly know it's Apple.
- [47:29]
A
Okay, so the last spot, we won't vote on this one, Vanessa, but Lemons was the second spot in the maker's Mark campaign. I love that one. For me, I even found that to be a stronger execution. Was it stronger or was it not?
- [47:48]
B
It was not. It scored a 2.6.
- [47:52]
A
Jesus.
- [47:53]
B
Again, I don't want to say that's a bad score. That's average for the category.
- [47:57]
A
Well, who wants to be average?
- [48:00]
B
I just can't say it's bad, you know, it's average for the category.
- [48:04]
A
Yeah, I love that one. I thought that was a great execution. All right, guys, what we do is we wrap up the show by talking. Just kind of getting a little summary bullet from each of you. When you talk about advice for both of these brands, sometimes we see sort of shared characteristics from one campaign to the other. Sometimes it's not. But we'll go around. We're going to start with Vanessa and put her on the hot seat. Then we'll go to Yani, we'll go Rags, then we'll go Amelia, and then we will rap. Okay, Vanessa, what do you think, in summary, what do you.
- [48:33]
B
What do you think connecting these two brands together?
- [48:36]
A
No, no, no. I mean, just, just sort of your summary observation for each of them as, as, as we go forward.
- [48:42]
B
For makers, Mark, they have a really, really strong idea and a strong strategy and they've got a really rich history to tap from. I think that they've, as we discussed, they've made a couple shifts and it's time to. It seems like this campaign based on testing has some of the higher scores. There's a lot of love for it based on the YouTube comments and whatnot. When you have something good, stick with it, explore it, stretch it in a variety of different ways and see what magic can happen with Nike versus Adidas. I mean, I have a. There's a lot of folks who have a lot of heart for what Adidas has been building over the last few years. And with you've got this, so. And you know, there's a lot of love for this campaign that they just launched. So I feel like they're on a high. But what you have to go up against is Nike's really great in the moment as well. Something that you can't forget. So as really exciting moments happen in the games, you can expect Nike to, you know, really create moments that people talk about. So they're a force to be reckoned with.
- [49:48]
A
Yeah, Yanni.
- [49:49]
C
Yeah, I'll be, I'll be short from Maker's Mark. I had a similar summary. I think they should double down on the direction that they've chosen. And I think we talked so much about DBAs and I think they've got a lot to mine from, but in that way as well, double down and explore some of the ones that are the strongest for them and how they can show up beyond holiday, beyond other moments, beyond maybe a template where it always have to be the exact same thing. But double down is sort of of the summary on them for Nike. You know, they figured out tactically, I think, how to go at cultural moments, whether that's reacting to them or thinking about how to break through during them. But I think what they are lost on a little bit is finding their voice in this new world where it maybe isn't just about the, you know, winning and sort of elite athlete excellence. So I think they should take a step back and figure out what that looks like in a non traditional form or during a moment where people, people want to hear something from the brand that feels like of the brand but it maybe isn't just about excellence, how you do that. I don't have the solution for them. Maybe we could work on it with them, but
- [51:14]
A
Good twitch, good twitch. All right, Rags?
- [51:19]
E
Yeah, I think if there's something I could draw as a parallel across both, I think it's. And that I feel like they've done well is knowing their audience. I think, you know, Maker's Mark have really ensured they're focused on that really premium positioning. I think, you know, it's an area that, you know, they know, they know their buyer well. I think it's really trying to tap and talk to that loyalist or purist, as you would say, someone who goes that extra mile to really get the best out of, out of their drink and that experience for them in the same way Nike, you know, obviously, yes, it was probably something that you maybe rolled your eyes over the first time, but to the point of it being a marathon. I think what's different about a Super bowl or an Olympic campaign, you know, the World cup is five weeks long, it's a long tournament, there's a lot of games, there's a lot of touch points. It's going to take time to really build momentum and it's the first time it's been in the US for I don't even know how long, if ever. So that in itself, you've got two worlds colliding of the advertising marketing capital of the world, bringing together a sport that's followed by more than a billion people worldwide. So I think there's a lot of potential to really see how this plays out. And again, going back to who is the kind of target audience and tapping across a lot of different influencers and athletes that can serve a lot of value for them as well.
- [52:39]
A
And then lastly, Amelia.
- [52:41]
C
Yeah.
- [52:41]
D
You know, I think for Maker's Mark, I would say you have this beautiful campaign with a line, perfectly unreasonable. I want to see them be more unreasonable with how they show up in the world and how they build on this campaign over time. I want to be surprised. I want, you know, I think they have permission to do it. So I would love to see more of that, I think, with Nike. You know, I'm. I'm excited about this universe that they're building. I think. Don't lose sight of who you are and don't build the universe and kind of sacrifice your center of gravity. So I love to see where they're going and if this bet pays off for them, because I think that it will have a lot of implications for the industry, largely. But, yeah, don't lose your center of gravity.
- [53:28]
A
It's gotta be tough for any brand when you're a mature brand and others are clipping at your heels constantly stealing your territory and doing it in fresh ways that are resulting in your business seeing a strong level of decline. And therefore, your confidence as a strategist or as a marketer begins to decline. And I think the risk is you then start to feel lost. I mean, it's gotta be brutal. It's brutal in any industry, and it's certainly brutal in the one that they have. Thank you to Yanni Weiderholm, who is head of Social and is also group creative director, TBWA Chiat Day in Los Angeles, Amelia Renshaw, head of strategy, Lucky Generals in New York, Vanessa Chin, SVP Marketing at System1. And Rags. How did it go? Your first time here?
- [54:18]
E
This is great. Thank you for having me. This was really enjoyable.
- [54:21]
A
Yeah. So just for so people know, Isaac, who was on before Isaac, has left tracksu gone on to new things. And so we're excited to have Rags with us. Rags is in charge of growth in North America at Tracksuit in New York City. Thank you all, guys. Really appreciate everything.
- [54:38]
B
It was fun.
- [54:40]
A
We will see everybody next month on the next episode of on the Spot. Have a great month, everybody. Cheers. Bye.