On the Spot - Tesla & Poppi. Planners talk about brands they've never worked on.

Summary

Podcast Summary: On Strategy Showcase – Episode: On the Spot - Tesla & Poppi

Podcast Information:

• Title: On Strategy Showcase
• Host: Fergus O’Carroll
• Description: Where marketers tell the stories behind the strategies that led to amazing campaigns.
• Episode: On the Spot - Tesla & Poppi. Planners talk about brands they've never worked on.
• Release Date: June 12, 2025

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Introduction

In the June 12, 2025 episode of On Strategy Showcase, host Fergus O’Carroll introduces a fresh format focusing on brands the panelists have never worked on. Joining the usual panel of marketing misfits—Vanessa Chen from System 1 and Matthew Herbert from Tracksuit—are new guests Matt Maynard, a genius marketer, and Ali Chastain, Group Strategy Director at the Martin Agency. Together, they delve into the narratives of two prominent brands: Poppi and Tesla, exploring their market strategies, growth trajectories, and the dynamics of brand management in the context of founder influence.

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Segment 1: Poppi – The Functional Soda Phenomenon

Background and Growth

The discussion begins with Poppi, a functional prebiotic soda brand founded by Allison Ellsworth and her husband Stephen in 2016. Officially launching in 2020 after rebranding from Mother Beverage, Poppi gained significant attention after appearing on Shark Tank in 2018. Despite the prebiotic soda market in the U.S. being valued at $820 million in retail sales, Forbes reportedly cites Poppi's revenue at over $500 million in 2024—a figure that raises questions about its accuracy given the market size.

Fergus O’Carroll ([00:49]):

"This month we are talking about two brands with a theme of David vs. Goliath. Poppi, which has hit its stride in the functional soda market..."

Matt Maynard ([04:03]):

"Their strategy is really just a great example of what we know about how brands grow. They are easily thought of and really easy to find and buy."

Market Strategy and Acquisition

Poppi's aggressive marketing strategies, including significant social media presence and high-profile placements like two Super Bowl ads, have set it apart from competitors like Olipop. In March 2025, Pepsi acquired Poppi for a reported $1.95 billion, marking a remarkable growth story in the functional beverage space.

Fergus O’Carroll ([00:32]):

"Ali Chastain is group strategy director at the Martin Agency... And we now face off against two additional brilliant minds."

Ali Chastain ([05:40]):

"Poppy's mission here is to unseat big Soda... They have gotten in some trouble around their health claims with a class action lawsuit."

Brand Personality and Influence

Poppi distinguishes itself by maintaining a strong but not overly prominent brand personality. Unlike some brands that center around their founders, Poppi's leadership, particularly Allison Ellsworth, remains behind the scenes. This approach allows the brand to stand independently in the marketplace.

Matt Maynard ([11:29]):

"She isn't the face of the brand. The brand in many ways lives on its own."

Vanessa Chen ([07:29]):

"It's really using what we call fluent innovation... They leaned hard into soda and the flavors that we know..."

Advertising and Market Penetration

Poppi's advertising campaigns, especially during the Super Bowl, exemplify a "social first, Gen Z first" approach. Initial campaigns were flashy and social media-centric, though they faced challenges in creating deep emotional connections with a broader audience. However, recent efforts show improvement in brand recognition and storytelling.

Matthew Herbert ([08:14]):

"Poppy is launching into taking that market share in the general soda... Their distribution and promotion are key differentiators."

Vanessa Chen ([13:00]):

"Throughout all of humanity's existence... this will be the last moment you ever think of soda as..."

Matthew Herbert ([16:18]):

"There's significant shifts in awareness, consideration, preference, and usage, and it's outpacing the category compared to Olipop."

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Segment 2: Tesla – Navigating Brand Turbulence Amid Founder Controversies

Background and Founder Influence

Transitioning to Tesla, the panel discusses how Elon Musk's personal behaviors and political involvements have deeply impacted the brand. Tesla, a brand built around innovation in electric vehicles (EVs), has traditionally relied on Musk's visionary persona to drive its image. However, his polarizing actions have posed significant challenges for Tesla's brand identity.

Fergus O’Carroll ([25:10]):

"This is about the behavior of a founder-led brand and what responsibilities he has to the brand... when your mascot goes rogue."

Matt Maynard ([29:23]):

"Tesla's early growth was from being first and from spectacle... They didn't build lasting memory structures beyond Elon."

Brand Challenges and Market Position

Despite Tesla's high brand awareness (84%) in the U.S., its consideration rate has plummeted to 20%, trailing the category average of 34%. The decline is more pronounced in Europe, where sales have dropped by 49%. The panel highlights the difficulty Tesla faces in differentiating itself as EVs become a standard feature across the automotive industry.

Matthew Herbert ([31:29]):

"Tesla's awareness is 84%, but consideration is only 20%, trailing the category average of 34%."

Ali Chastain ([34:41]):

"Tesla needs to compete on design or UX or maybe even like a software ecosystem... an opportunity to diversify that narrative away from EV."

Advertising and Future Strategies

Unlike Poppi, Tesla has historically avoided traditional advertising, relying instead on Musk's presence and the scarcity of their products to generate buzz. However, as the EV market matures, Tesla's lack of distinct advertising has hindered its ability to maintain a broad and positive brand memory beyond its founder.

Matt Maynard ([30:47]):

"If they had invested in broad, consistent advertising, they could have reinforced other associations like innovation or safety."

Vanessa Chen ([38:29]):

"The auto category is suffering from a sea of sameness... creating distinctiveness and emotional connections is key."

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Comparative Analysis: Poppi vs. Tesla

Brand Leadership and Ownership

Poppi's leadership model, with a behind-the-scenes C-suite, contrasts sharply with Tesla's founder-centric approach. This difference underscores the importance of brand independence from individual personalities to maintain consistent brand equity.

Fergus O’Carroll ([44:33]):

"Matt was going in a similar direction... brands have to be bigger than the people who built them."

Ali Chastain ([45:21]):

"Brands need to have an authentic and ownable story that can diversify away from the founder."

Marketing Strategies and Consumer Perception

Both brands employ social-first strategies but diverge in execution and market impact. Poppi's targeted and broad-reaching advertising has facilitated its rapid growth and acquisition, while Tesla's minimal advertising coupled with founder-driven publicity has led to volatility in consumer perception.

Vanessa Chen ([43:04]):

"Both brands took a social first approach... pick a strategic idea and insight, create some storytelling and stick with it."

Matt Maynard ([43:39]):

"You need broad reach, strong memory structures, and physical availability. Founders cannot be the sole focus."

Lessons Learned

The panelists agree that foundational brand principles remain vital. Poppi exemplifies how agile, authentic branding aligned with strategic distribution can disrupt markets. Conversely, Tesla illustrates the risks of over-reliance on a founder's persona without developing a resilient, independent brand narrative.

Matthew Herbert ([45:23]):

"Brand building principles from the last 40 years still ring true in 2025."

Matt Maynard ([44:33]):

"Brands have to be bigger than the people who built them... avoid inheriting all the volatility of the founder."

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Conclusion: Key Takeaways

• Brand Independence: Maintaining a brand identity separate from its founders or key figures is crucial for long-term stability and growth.

• Consistent Storytelling: Developing and sticking to a strategic narrative enhances brand recognition and emotional connection with consumers.

• Adaptive Marketing Strategies: Leveraging broad-reaching yet targeted advertising can propel a brand from niche to mainstream, as demonstrated by Poppi.

• Management of Founder Influence: Tesla's challenges highlight the importance of corporate governance and managing founder influence to protect and sustain brand reputation.

Fergus O’Carroll ([45:24]):

"Boards need to realize their responsibility in a brand... better corporate governance could help manage founder influence."

Ali Chastain ([45:21]):

"Ensure authentic storytelling and diversify the brand narrative away from the founder."

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Final Remarks: Fergus wraps up the episode by acknowledging the insightful discussions and emphasizing the enduring relevance of foundational branding principles. The panelists commend each other’s perspectives and reiterate the importance of strategic brand management in navigating market dynamics and founder influence.

Fergus O’Carroll ([46:15]):

"Great to have everybody back to talk about brands they've never worked on. Thanks everybody and we will see you all on the next episode."

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Panelists:

• Ali Chastain: Group Strategy Director, Martin Agency
• Matt Maynard: Head of Brand, Asana, San Francisco
• Matthew Herbert: Co-Founder and Co-CEO, Tracksuit, New York City/London
• Vanessa Chen: SVP Marketing, System 1

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the full podcast.

Transcript

[Fergus]

So welcome back to this month's episode of on the Spot where we talk about brands we've never worked on. It is a new thing now that we've invited a genius marketer to join the team. You know, we used to just have planners on our little misfit panel, but we have, we've invited Matt Maynard to join us. Welcome to the show, Matt.

[Matt Maynard]

Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

[Fergus]

And Ali Chastain is group strategy director at the Martin Agency, a place where I worked many moons ago. It's great to have Ali. Wel, welcome.

[Ali Chastain]

Thanks, Fergus. We miss you over there.

[Fergus]

And then of course, there is our usual misfits, Vanessa chen from System 1 and Matthew Herbert from Tracksuit. Welcome back, panel. And we now face off against two additional brilliant minds, I think is the way to put it.

[Vanessa Chen]

It's going to be fun.

[Fergus]

Okay, so here's the way this goes. So this month, you know, as regular listeners will know, we pick two brands that we've never worked on each month and we just talk about them. We recognize the fact that these are our opinions. We might get things wrong. We might get. But opinions are opinions for that exact reason that they can be both of those things. So forgive us if we say something that's really off or you want to correct us. You can actually send us an email to [e-mail] and correct us. And I'm quite willing, if we're like so far off to correct ourselves on the next show. But since we haven't gotten any really negative emails, we'll believe that we're doing everything perfect for now. So this month we are talking about two brands. We have a theme of David's and Goliath. And so we have two brands. One is a David becoming a Goliath recently and the other is a Goliath that is maybe becoming a David. So we're going to start off with Poppy. I guess what they're calling it is a functional soda brand. And then we're going to talk about Tesla. And Tesla will be example of possibly a Goliath becoming a David for many reasons that we'll talk about later. But we'll start off with Poppy, which has sort of hit its stride in the last couple of years. It is in the prebiotic soda market, which in the US is 820 million in retail sales. The category is dominated by Olipop and Poppy. Coke entered the space with Simply Pop recently after their attempts to acquire Poppy sort of fell apart. I don't know the reasons behind that, but the functional proposition here is gut health and lower sugar. And Poppy was founded by Allison Ellsworth and her husband Stephen in 2016. Roughly. It officially launched as Poppy in 2020 after a rebrand from Mother Beverage. And it, it actually gained a lot of notoriety after it appeared on Shark Tank, which was in 2018. So after that it was rebranded as Poppy. Forbes reports that poppy generated over 500 million in revenue in 2024. Now, this is where it falls apart for me because I'm thinking they generated $500 million in revenue in a category that's just $820 million. So I think take this all with a grain of salt. Pepsi, however, this is factual. Pepsi acquired Poppy for a reported 1.95 billion in March of this year. So it's been an amazing growth story and it has done a number of things that we all talk about here on the show a lot, which is great social media and has done great broad reach activities. It's been in two Super Bowls. Olipop has not been in Super Bowls. So it's gotten a lot of reach and it has some really strong relationships with sort of influencers that we can talk about later. So this is Poppy. It just sort of seemed to pop on the market. I suppose maybe it was a year ago. Their first spot was, I think it was called the Future of Soda is now back in the day. But Matt, what do you think of this brand? And did it pop into your world in the same way it seemed to pop into mine?

[Matt Maynard]

No, there's a lot of. There's a lot of popping coming from Poppy. No, I think their strategy is really just a great example of what we know about how brands grow. Right. They are easily thought of and they're also really easy to find and buy. And they've really put that into practice, I think better than most and quite frankly better than their competitors. They didn't just tie their brand to this idea of healthier soda. They were building memory across real world moments. More than just that, things like social drinking or maybe, you know, a daily refreshment or this idea of like a better for you treat, maybe even a lifestyle flex in some degree. It's, you know, simple, it's emotional. But I think what's interesting is it's fun first and then it's health second. And you know, they didn't just stop there. They were really backing it. Like what we talked about was serious investment too. They were investing in the brand at one point it noted, and I was Reading that they were outspending brands like Gatorade and Dr. Pepper, which is kind of unheard of for a new contender in the space. You talked about the super bowl piece. They were doing things at Coachella. I was reading about how they were doing things on gaming. And they weren't just doing these big splashes, but they were really looking for consistent cultural presence. And if you compare that to Olipop, who you were talking about, Olipop, on the other hand, was staying much more narrow. Right. They were talking more about gut health. They were leaning more into nostalgia. They had more targeted media, more niche influencers. And, you know, while that's great for engagement, it wasn't the kind of broad reach I think that Poppy was starting to build.

[Fergus]

Ali, what are your thoughts?

[Ali Chastain]

Yeah, I think that's super interesting because what we're seeing, right, is Poppy's mission here is to unseat big Soda. And really, I think to do that. And what's interesting about the big Soda of it all is to redefine and almost launch a healthier, better soda. You still have to play sodas game, to your point, Matt. Right. Which is all about fun and flavor. It was really interesting. I was looking at some things that Rohan Oza, the main and famous shark tank investor that Poppy got lucky off of, and he was heard saying apparently recently at a conference, like, you can kind of connect the dots where gut health isn't fun. And I think it's not only that, it's also really tricky. Poppy has gotten in some trouble around their health claims. Let us not forget there was a claim class action lawsuit that said Poppy was falsely advertising the Scott health promotion, which they have settled for. And that was really experienced. Right after their first super bowl ad, which I believe was last year in 2024. We're just seeing this interesting dynamic, I think, in the functional beverage space where you can't really play on health. You really do have to go more into that healthy lifestyle place because gut health alone just might not cut it. And it might be a little tricky to cut that way anyway.

[Fergus]

So probiotic and prebiotic, I mean, these are sort of ingredients that are cutting across tons of product lines. And also the rebrand, Vanessa, is sort of a cue because the rebrand from Mother. From Mother Beverage. Right. Which brings to mind a whole different set of associations to Poppy. Right. Sort of indicates that whole new brand refresh and identity that emerged out of it.

[Vanessa Chen]

It's really using what we call fluent innovation. Like 80, 20 rule, like 80% familiar, 20% new, which really works in the innovation space. So they really just leaned hard into soda and actually into the flavors that we know of soda. So everything, you know, from classic cola to, you know, you know, something that's similar to Mountain Dew, they really dove headfirst into what we already knew about soda with the quote unquote healthy spin. And it's really working for them.

[Fergus]

So for Matthew, how does the category look or how does it even track? And does it track as its own category? When you look at Olipop and you look at Poppy?

[Matthew Herbert]

It's an interesting start to this conversation because we track Poppy and soda categories in two different categories. One better for you soda category penetration in the US 36%, approximately 92 million people.

[Fergus]

Wow, those are users or those are.

[Matthew Herbert]

People who have bought soda in the last month. Or better for you soda.

[Fergus]

A better for you soda.

[Matthew Herbert]

So that's 92.1 million adults in the U.S. now to the first category, Fergus, that you're talking about soda in comparison, 86% penetration, 219 million U.S. adults. So that shows you the comparison of what you're looking at. And if you're a brand in a new category or emerging categories, are you looking at better for you soda or are you going against soda? And I think Poppy right now is launching into taking that market share in the general soda. Poppy has played the CPG giant brand playbook right from the start. Especially when you compare it to an Olipop who has been slightly more niche or reserved. While I'm on a roll hot take US consumers don't know the difference between Poppy or Olipop. When we look at perceptions and when a brand looks the same, sounds the same, tastes the same. Why does Pepsi buy Poppy for 1.95 billion? I think we start to look at distribution and place and promotion and the four P's and maybe that's the differentiator.

[Fergus]

We'll be right back. Want always on brand metrics that deliver value to stakeholders. This episode is brought to you by Tracksuit, a beautiful, affordable and always on brand tracking tool that helps consumer marketers and agencies answer the question. Is what we're doing working? A not so secret fact is that companies pay $100,000 or more for brand track, which is out of the question for many modern brands whose budgets are under pressure. Tracksuit provides enterprise level brand tracking without the big price tag. Their in house research experts do the heavy lifting using best in class practices to craft and launch your survey and get you results fast. Tracksuit is fast becoming the common language for marketers and agencies to measure and communicate the value of brand building. Check it [e-mail] that's gotracksuit.com now back to the show. When we think about Poppy and we talk, obviously we're talking about founders as a part of this theme today. So Allison Ellsworth is not known as being a part of. She's not. I mean, she's chief brand officer for the brand, but she's not out front as a founder. She's sort of behind the scenes. They have a CEO in place who manages the whole business. But what do we think about this sort of personality that they've developed, Matt? I mean, you used a few words to describe it earlier. Tell us about more about what you think about that personality, where you think it fits in that category.

[Matt Maynard]

Yeah, well, I think you summed it up really well that she isn't necessarily out front. She isn't the face of the brand. The brand in many ways lives on its own. We talked about the mother brand. I'm glad that she renamed that. And it's not about the mother. It's really about the brand itself. I think one part that really stands out to about the brand in general is like she learned early on through Shark Tank. My assumption is that this publicity can be really, really big. And they have consistently invested in the brand. They have put lots of money around, like what we talked about, the advertising. They've really focused on distribution, all the things that are really important. It's funny, Matthew, you mentioned earlier around, you know, Poppy moving into retail. I mean, they were in Target, they were in Walmart, they were in Whole Foods, in convenience stores, where when you look at something like Olipop, they were really building credibility first and the natural grocer. And they were slower really, with their market expansion. So I just, when I think of the founder move here, it wasn't about the founder. It was really about knowing via a really strong start in something like Shark Tank that being known is much better than not being known. And that was really the biggest game as well as the distribution.

[Fergus]

Yeah, I mean, for me, Vanessa, I kind of found the two different super bowl spots to be like, they came from different brands. One was sort of a calling card of the change of the guard in soda back in 2024.

[Ali Chastain]

You are a human on earth.

[Vanessa Chen]

And throughout all of humanity's existence on.

[Ali Chastain]

Earth, there have been ideas, strides and accomplishments. Some have been enormous, some have been small and personal, and others have been revelatory. A simple change that redefines everything we thought we knew. For example, this will be the last moment you ever think of soda as.

[Vanessa Chen]

Being a dirty word, soda as being.

[Ali Chastain]

Bad for you, filled with unclean ingredients and unnecessary sugar. Because this is poppy and poppy is soda. It tastes like soda, looks like soda, smells like soda, and fizzes like soda because it is soda.

[Fergus]

How did that spot, do you have a sense of how that spot played out in Super Bowl? That first one which was, which was called the future of Soda is now.

[Vanessa Chen]

Yeah. So I took a look at all of the Poppy and Ollipop and even refreshed on some recent Coke Coke work and there's an interesting mix happening. So when it comes to Poppy and the super bowl, real quick, I want to talk about their strategy about, you know, being social first kind of Gen Z first. This is the first generation that has experienced soda being the ultimate enemy their entire lives. And so to really go head first into trying to appeal to this group, I actually put them in similar category of Celsius as like an alternative to, you know, the Red Bulls of the world. And then you take super bowl, which is mass audience for everybody. And I really wanted to know how does this social first Gen Z first work work for a nationally representative audience? And so what you see is average. And the thing is is that this soda does need to work for a mass audience. They can't necessarily, especially now that they're owned by Pepsi. They can't on this niche audience. And so year one, when you look at the work, it's a lot of social first quick cuts. That really is not a significant emotional connection. It's very flashy. Like soda is here, soda is back. And the soda category averages about like a 2.6 out of our 5 point our scales, 1 to 5.9 for long term brand potential. So year one the work was like 2729 brand recognition. Okay, better than Olipop. I will say Poppy's work is much better branded than Olipop's work. You see the scores in like the 80s and 90s versus like 60s for, for Olipop. But what I saw change for this super bowl was the scores are increasing. So again, this is a new brand doing do new different work. And so you start to see poppy score like a 3.3 but a fluency of like 93. So the trend is up. They're bringing in more storytelling in the latest super bowl work. They're bringing in the influencers that they recognize in other channels. And you're starting to essentially see that work get stronger and stronger and this.

[Matthew Herbert]

Is the great thing I love about the creative testing with system one. And then what can we see with tracksit and the longer term flow and effects of the impact on brand. And you know, right now across, across the board there is significant shifts and increase in awareness, consideration, preference and usage and it's outpacing the category compared to an Olipop. And better for you when it goes over to this broader soda category. Here's a comparison. Broader soda category poppies awareness 40% in the better for you category. Awareness is at 64%. And so they're using the niche to launch into the mainstream with a look at the job to be done. Coca Cola's Dr. Peppers spry, they're all in the 80s and 90s, so there's huge room for growth. I've also on a slightly different tangent about influences. Has anybody on this watched the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives?

[Fergus]

Yeah, I have seen.

[Ali Chastain]

I'm not caught up on season two.

[Matthew Herbert]

You gotta get it. Hey, look, guilty pleasure, super easy watch. But when the Mormon community in Utah, huge soda drinkers and Poppy has shown up all through connected tv, the storytelling of the ads, the flowing of the super bowl product placements in the show, like with a genuine audience and connection and influences who are right in the, you know, all the authentic sweet spot of, of who's drinking and what they can leverage. And you know, I really, really noticed that increase in CPG playbook off the back of Pepsi following on from Super Bowls. And it's, it's, you know, it's all, it's all I could see while I was, while I was living in the States for the last couple of months.

[Ali Chastain]

It is interesting too, I think Matthew, the line that this brand is toying with when it comes to influencers. If you think about the super bowl spot, right, there were what, three major influencers in that spot. I think Allison Ellsworth herself had said something that when ad agencies were pitching ideas for the big game, a lot of agencies or creative teams were bringing really big name celebrities. And she immediately shut that down and was like, no, we really want to stick with something that is more authentic. These influencers who are drinking us. But what was interesting was right after there was quite a bit of backlash when I think poppy sent these $10,000 vending machines.

[Fergus]

Personal $25,000.

[Ali Chastain]

Okay. Well, apparently, Fergus, it's debated of course, eating the fine print. They think that Poppy, Poppy has said that they think Olipop was creating this false narrative around those actually being $25,000 when they were 10k. So, again, the functional soda wars are upon us. But that was an. It was interesting to see how Allison herself really handled that situation with influencers, where, yes, you've put so much trust and money into them in this super bowl ad, but then when you go give them a $10,000 vending machine, a lot of fans were really upset about that versus when they saw their favorite influencer in the big game spot. They loved that. So I think that's just an interesting space, I think, and a bigger conversation right now in our industry of how exactly do you leverage influencers? And I feel like Poppy's really on the front lines, really experimenting with that relationship that brands have with that type of talent and with that type of creator.

[Matt Maynard]

It does make you wonder, though, about, you know, this publicity. Is this really that bad? Right. Somebody who grew up in the spotlight and being talked about whether you're doing something, is that actually that harmful in this? Sorry, Vanessa.

[Vanessa Chen]

Oh, no, I was just gonna say out of curiosity. I wanted to see in the verbatims in the super bowl work if there was any named mention of the influencers, and there wasn't. And there. There typically is. If there's a known celebrity or someone who's highly known, it will pop up in the verbatims. But I didn't mentions of Shane or Alex or otherwise. So it's an interesting strategy to tackle in mainstream media versus using it in their native platforms.

[Fergus]

And these are not small influencers in their world. In that younger group's world, I mean, Alex Earle is pretty damn large. And she's featured sitting by the pool in the new super bowl spot. Jake Shane is sitting in the car as I go through the drive through. And then Rob rouched. Robert Ausch, I think it is, is the guy delivering the pizza, the hunk at the door. So they make these sort of cameos. And for me, I had no clue who they were when I saw it. Obviously, I'm not in my 20s.

[Matthew Herbert]

Same here. My wife had to tell me, sitting in the car.

[Vanessa Chen]

Right this second at some diner somewhere, I'll have a. Someone really wants a soda. And they're not alone because somewhere else, there's a bunch of other someones that are also thinking about soda. Like her.

[Fergus]

Hello?

[Ali Chastain]

Are you okay?

[Matthew Herbert]

I'm thinking.

[Vanessa Chen]

See, but soda feels like a lot of sugar right now. And these other drinks, too much buzz, no flavor. What if there were a better soda?

[Matt Maynard]

Hurry up.

[Matthew Herbert]

Hey, yo. Hi, bestie.

[Matt Maynard]

Okay, I'm gonna freak out. It's a drive through, not a confession. Booth, show up a poppy, please.

[Ali Chastain]

Stop spiraling. Get a poppy.

[Matt Maynard]

Get a poppy.

[Fergus]

Get a poppy.

[Vanessa Chen]

Don't mind if I do.

[Matthew Herbert]

I think this is. This is such a. Such a good case study for what every CPG founder is trying to do, whether they like it to admit it or not. Start a brand, start a business, grow it, get bought by the big incumbent.

[Ali Chastain]

And that's exactly what they said on Shark Tank, right in that original episode. They're like, the end game is that you guys have to get bought. And you think about how Rohan right now, I think he said 25% stake. He is absolutely pleased, probably post Pepsi.

[Fergus]

So, you know, one of the things I thought when I. When I first saw the spot and I watched it again before we came on, I found that spot, the new one, which was done. I think it's done, also done by Virtue, the agency. I know Virtue did this, the first super bowl spot, but I found that the spot. I was surprised by how practical the script was. It, you know, certainly it. The personality of the brand, the colors, the vibrance of it. But they're talking about pragmatic things throughout. A lot of that. Less sugar, all the things we're told we shouldn't be talking about in advertising. I wonder, given their target, if that actually resonates with them. And maybe it doesn't because I only got a 3.3, Vanessa, but it seems that this was a mix of the pragmatic and the functional. Maybe that's a part of. When you're in a category that's defined as functional soda, you're given permission to talk about some of these functional attributes. But again, maybe that's just for me, because I didn't recognize that Alex Earle and all these guys were in there as sort of candy.

[Vanessa Chen]

Yeah, it seems like everyone's reconciling it mostly as just leading to healthy. You know, there aren't necessarily. I'm not seeing, like, strong feelings about gut health was actually on TikTok and other channels, other social channels, there is a healthy conversation about gut. Gut health and bloating and things of that nature. However, in. In. In the TV work, they. They kind of just reconcile it into this quote, unquote, healthy. And then they kind of move on. Like, oh, that's interesting. This looks really. There's a lot of sensory pleasure that's popping up in the ads. So it's like the. The classic cpg, like bite and smile. It's like drink and smile. There's a lot of that in there that's coming through but yeah, it's bright colored flavors, you know, and crave lots of smiling, lots of fun, fun music and all that. But no real like, oh, wow, I really need to like help my gut health.

[Fergus]

All right.

[Ali Chastain]

And I wonder too if that's intentional, Vanessa. Right. Like in TV and these big super bowl spots. Right. I feel like all CPG brands have learned over time, like, keep it light. Keep it light for a moment like this. And at the awareness and familiarity, familiarity level, that might be great. But if you think of the larger comm strategy, you do have to wonder what role from their end as Poppy sitting down and strategizing what social media is doing because perhaps it is what you're talking about, Fergus, more of the educational driving, a little harder hitting messaging in those places.

[Matthew Herbert]

I think for Poppy launching into the general soda and using super bowl as that they also need to earn the right. Like, because no one actually knows who Poppy is. And so they have to. They just come with emotional storytelling but no one actually knows who or what. And I think striking that rational, emotional brand play is, you know, they've earned the right to go into soda. And we look across both. Better for you soda. Soda is a category. What drives consideration the most. It's taste and relevance. It's not better for you. It's not gut. It's not health. Yes, they are in the mix, but it's taste and relevancy are the strongest conversions, whether you're playing in big soda or better for you soda.

[Matt Maynard]

Matt, one thing I really love that you're talking about too is like, it's not about differentiation. Right. I feel like this comes up especially in B2B companies. But B2C, they're not focused on that differentiation. They're focused on the fundamentals of what brand builds a brand. And Fergus, this is all about David versus Goliath. They really didn't have the advantage coming in. Right. Big brands have the advantage. They have more buyers, they have more loyalty. But really the small brands, I think this is an example can win. And if they are scrappy, they're not just trying to be different, but they're really focused on being distinctive and easy to buy where it counts. I think they can win and this is a great example of that.

[Fergus]

We'll be right back. Are celebrities the secret sauce to add effectiveness? What about music or brand characters? You can predict and improve advertising's commercial impact with System 1's test yout ad platform. Test yout Ad is the creative effectiveness platform that measures consumers emotional responses, predicting the sales and growth Impact of advertising. You can test creative for linear and connected tv, digital, outdoor, audio and print channels from early concepts through to finished film plus access. System One's Test yout Ad Premium platform. With more than 150,000 ads in the database, you get the most accurate view of your category with results and rankings updated daily. So create with confidence. To learn more, visit systemone group.com that's system1group group.com now back to the show. We will move on to our second one which is always exciting. So this is, this is Tesla. So the way I think about this is what happens when your mascot goes rogue. So there's been an awful lot of conversation about what is going on with Tesla in the, in marketing circles. For those who don't know about it, here's the 30 seconds. Elon Musk is the face of Tesla and that's critically important. This is a brand new brand that made a decision not to advertise. There was some rumor that they might have been developing some new campaigns with some agencies or at least going through the process maybe about 18 months ago. I've heard that some are on the shelf. They haven't actually obviously launched yet. So time will tell. He made his first millions and billions with PayPal. He made electric vehicles popular at scale. He also started SpaceX, Boring Company, Neuralink, XAI, etc, tons of stuff. Acquired Twitter in 2022, which sort of began Musk's journey into sort of political involvement. He's thought of as both a visionary entrepreneur but also described as an American oligarch. His involvement and conversion to the Maga movement have made him a deeply polarizing figure. So his personal behaviors and beliefs have dramatically impacted the brand, which is what we're talking about today. So this is not about politics, but it's about the behavior of a, of a founder led brand and what responsibilities he or she has to the brand and what happens when your mascot goes rogue. So are there any lessons, Matt, in terms of when you look at, at Musk and Tesla and we're talking here about Tesla and Musk is very hard if not impossible to separate from Tesla. But our focus is on the brand, not on the politics of the owner.

[Matt Maynard]

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I feel like this is such a great opposite example of what we talked about where Poppy's founder was very much not the brand. This is almost the opposite. And you talked about advertising too. I think advertising to some degree could have helped here, but I don't know. Not, I don't think it would have necessarily helped by distancing them from Elon. Right. We know advertising's real power is in refreshing those memory structures, like keeping the brand top of mind, shaping what buyers are associating with it. And when we think of like Tesla, their early growth was really coming from being first, right? From scarcity, from things like spectacle. This earned attention. They didn't really need broad advertising because demand was really exceeding supply. And Elon was really a positive asset at that time. But the strategy didn't really last and build those lasting memory structures, especially as Elon, you know, started to lean more into politics and becoming more controversial. And as that shifted, they just didn't have brand memory. I don't think that they had built it without the advertising that they had built it. So in my view, if they had invested in broad, consistent advertising, they could have really reinforced other associations, things like innovation or safety or maybe design performance. Things that would have made Tesla more desirable, quite frankly, beyond Elon himself.

[Fergus]

Yeah, I wonder if it's even possible to separate. Well, I mean, at this point I don't think it's possible to separate him from the brand, but I mean, he has done such phenomenal things and it just feels that in this sort of modern world, we're seeing the dark side of founders more often than we did in the past. There was a discipline to sort of contain your own personal views and that, I think. So in modern culture now, modern business, there seems to be permissions to let your Persona be all that you want it to be, rather than being restrained. And I think I've got to think a board of directors is just like, God damn, let's all jump out the window.

[Matthew Herbert]

Tesla has huge awareness. No kidding. But it's leaking in consideration. 84% awareness, 20% consideration of those in the US who have bought or considered buying a new car, 20% consideration, which trails the category average of 34%. And so where are they falling behind? And this is pretty telling, but are.

[Fergus]

They going to other EVs or are they just like, how does it drill down when it comes to EV brand versus EV brand? Yes. Versus EV option.

[Matthew Herbert]

So where Tesla's falling behind is with 18 to 34 year olds and 55 plus. And those are the very people driving the category. Tesla is an ev, but everybody else has got electric vehicles now. And so what is the differentiator? What is the distinctiveness?

[Fergus]

Yeah, that's interesting because I had a conversation, I had BBH on the show to talk about Audi and during that conversation the strategist that was on said to Me? Well, Tesla has to be careful that it just doesn't become known for electric vehicles, that it builds a broader brand with, with broader attributes. And because for me, I look now and I think, and it's an interesting thought, I feel will electric simply become a powertrain option in the same way that you might have diesel or gasoline? So is the advantage from Tesla lost? And now when you go to a Chevy Silverado, the question is, do you want. It's not do you want an electric vehicle, it's which powertrain do you want? And does that completely change what, what Tesla Ali needs to be going forward? Is this going to be something where the Tesla brand, in order to succeed, although it's still pretty dominant in electric vehicles in the US it's cratering in Europe. So does it need, is the opportunity maybe to begin to take that brand to mean something more?

[Ali Chastain]

Yeah, that's an interesting question, Fergus. And I think what we're seeing, right, is we're entering a new EV era, right, that has almost a new battleground. And especially in the us you could really say this is a good thing, right, that Tesla paved the way, pun intended, for this evolved marketplace. But I do think that if EV is no longer your singular, why brands are going to need to like Tesla, compete on design or UX or maybe even like a software ecosystem. And those are things that I feel like legacy brands and auto already know how to do well. So this is almost an opportunity for Tesla to diversify that. Why almost going back to what you were talking about, Vanessa, of like, what is that larger, more emotional benefit of driving a Tesla and how they can they almost connect their legacy of being first in this EV space, but show everything else that they have to offer to almost diversify that narrative away from ev, but still really be anchored in that space as well. Huge opportunity for their brand storytelling.

[Vanessa Chen]

Personally, I think one of the interesting ones that kind of sparked as I was preparing for today was the comeback of Hummer. I mean, that is a brand that was canceled for its gas guzzling and essentially because of ev, it's making a comeback. But Hummer was all about like big, bold, macho, all this stuff. So. And it's essentially now is allowed back in and. But it's really, it's not about, oh, Hummer's the best EV car. It's Hummer is the car that reflects how I want to experience driving.

[Fergus]

I think it was an Ipsos poll it showed here it is. It actually was an Axios Harris poll that said that Tesla rated 95th in a survey gauging reputations of top companies down from eighth four years past. I mean, it's huge precipitous decline. But the support for Musk is very much niched in terms of what your attitudes towards politics and others are. So I wonder, is part of the revival of Tesla the fact that it just needs to get to more affordable vehicles and different vehicles that can sell into a new group of users who 4 years ago would have rejected Tesla because it was taken away from my gasoline and drill baby drill, now they're fans of electric. I wonder does that side of the political equation save Tesla? And maybe that's the opportunity that there's going to be that doubling down on those who still regard it highly. Do you think there is, Matt Maynard, a sort of, of a way to save it by appealing to a market that really didn't consider it before, but now maybe they would.

[Matt Maynard]

Yeah. And I, I feel like even if we take out the politics here, I still think that they would be in a dilemma even if Elon was behaving the exact same way that he did at the very beginning. Right. You, you talked about electric. I don't think electric is a brand anymore. It's a feature like what everyone's talking about. It's like hybrid, it's like all wheel drive. It's just one attribute really now of many. And I think once something becomes a feature, it really stops being enough on its own to drive that growth. And I think the unlock now is that they need to expand their buying situations or get back to the heart of what they started doing, of being thought of in more of those buying situations. Right. So not just being thought of electric, they have to show up in more of those real world moments, those category entry points that Jenny Romanianik talks about like safety or family needs or daily commuting, long distance travel, tech innovation, whatever it may be. Because these legacy brands like Toyota, gm, they really have the edge here and they already have the broad memory structures and that they're layering electric as we're seeing into the brands that buyers are already purchasing that they know and that they already trust. And I think Tesla just can't be that electric car anymore because it really risks just being another option in the category, quite frankly, where being top of mind is incredibly important.

[Fergus]

Because it's interesting, Vanessa, to look at share overall because in the US share has only. Sales have only declined 13% year over year. But what's interesting, in Europe sales were down 49%. So there's these different regional attitudes towards it. And I'm curious, is there, when you look at the electric side of it, how do ads from other brands fare? Have we become or are we becoming? And hopefully we are, we're becoming a country. And drivers who are more open to electric than ever before. Like when you look at Audi, you look at Cadillac, you look at all of the big major players in vehicle manufacturing, they're all out with significant electric offerings.

[Vanessa Chen]

Yeah, there's a lot of love for a lot of the brands that are out there. You know, the auto category in general does suffer from like a sea of sameness where it's, you know, a vehicle driving through mountainous hills and things of that nature. So when you have a brand like Jeep Electric Boogie or Kia Robo Dog and they're creating work that's really connecting with people emotionally, you're seeing really strong results. I mean, some of the best in the auto category. The auto category average is 2.3 and you're seeing scores of 4.5, 4.8 into the five star. So there's certainly a lot of love here. And the key within the auto category is really creating that distinctiveness and creating some kind of storytelling, creating that emotional connection. And you can't just rely on a sex, you know, a sexy looking car driving through the mountains. You've got to do more than that.

[Fergus]

Yeah. Allie, what do you, what do you think about this? Thought about where, where it's, where's the saving opportunity for Tesla?

[Ali Chastain]

I'm gonna latch on to one of the words you just said, Vanessa, which is distinctive. Right. And I think right now what's happening, if we think about distinctive brand assets, and I think, Fergus, at the beginning you were saying mascot. Right. Is that essentially, I think part of the issue is that Elon has almost become one of, if not the main distinctive brand asset that Tesla currently has attached to it. And I think similar to what Matt Maynard was saying is that this is just an opportunity to broaden what that distinctiveness is. They need to find a new way in that is more tied to an emotional benefit. Right. As I was saying earlier, in a space where they are a leader, they are first. So what have you learned? What is that larger story that you can tell about what you are offering in a world where the main thing you were hanging your hat on is about to become a feature that all these other legacy players can do perhaps even better than you from a storytelling perspective, because they have been telling perhaps even more compelling, yes, the of sameness, to your point, Vanessa, stories for a long time. They are storied storytellers, perhaps more than Tesla has proven themselves to be. So I'm excited for hopefully Tesla to find a different distinctive brand asset, a different distinction that is further from Elon. I think that is what will save their business. I do think they are very far in the hole right now as a brand that has not advertised essentially at all. And the advertising that they do have, while it be non traditional, is advertising in the most abstract sense that's connected to Elon himself.

[Matt Maynard]

I guess I just have optimism that there is opportunity. I do think that Ali, like what you talked about, Tesla has dug a hole, but they had strong foundations. And I think I just go back to PR in general of like generally bad PR isn't as damaging I think as people really think. Most scandals, they fade fast. If that wasn't the case, we wouldn't fly many of the airlines that have had big incidents. We wouldn't go to the gas stations that pollute the oceans. Right. We are forgiving. We forget we pick what is easily accessible. I think this one has been different. But I still believe if they can ditch the mascot, to your point Ali, there's an opportunity to build back to the foundation that they started.

[Fergus]

Or you know, in closing here, or the idea that maybe the mascot does some other genius things. And to your point Matt, that if the reality is that we have such a nano memory that we forget about things pretty quickly and we are naive enough in many corners to believe a new story if it's presented in the right way. So there's a possibility that Musk could come up with another genius thing to benefit society. And if he can be corralled in terms of his public message and his Persona that the, that there could be a significant recovery here within, over, over a period of time.

[Matt Maynard]

Ali, good job for you.

[Fergus]

All right, so anything, Anything. Any last summary points on either Poppy compared to Tesla? Any summary points at all that we'll kind of run the table and see how this goes. We can we start with Vanessa, would you mind give us a little summary of your thoughts here?

[Vanessa Chen]

Sure. I mean I think both brands really took a social first approach and when you think about mainstream advertising creating that emotional connection, creating that consistency, you're seeing both brands hop around a little bit or non existent and you can see that come through in a scoring. And so my recommendation would be to pick a strategic idea and insight, create some storytelling and stick with it for a little bit.

[Fergus]

Matt?

[Matt Maynard]

Matt M. Yeah, I think the lesson from these could actually be distilled to something Pretty simple is that you are not unique and in many cases first mover advantage, it doesn't last forever, right? These founder led brands sometimes seem to believe that early success is going to carry them indefinitely. But categories really get crowded and the same rules apply to everyone. You need that broad reach, you need to build those strong memory structures and you need to be, you need to have physical availability, you need to be easy to find and buy and you can't just build your brand solely around a single person. You know, founders can create momentum as we saw in both of these cases. But when the founder is the brand, you really inherit all of their volatility as well. Because at the end of the day brands have to be bigger than the people who built the them.

[Fergus]

Yep, good point, Ally.

[Ali Chastain]

Gosh, honestly, so well said. Matt was going in a similar direction but I think here it's, it's just building off of that that when dealing with category disruption or at least trying to either establish a new category altogether, these founders really need to operate with caution. Right. And really being thoughtful about that separation of product from the profits. Almost right. Or the art and the. And it is really about going back to all the basics that Matt was just speaking of, of making sure you are showing up with an authentic and ownable story that's also one setting yourself up with potential to diversify that narrative and not stick so incredibly close to the founder's story and all that might come with it.

[Fergus]

Matthew, finally.

[Matthew Herbert]

Oh, that is all fantastic.

[Fergus]

What a.

[Matthew Herbert]

What a pleasure of an episode. And I think the best part about this is both Poppy and Tesla are such great examples about how brand building principles, marketing effectiveness, marketing, whatever you want to call it, that's been the same in the world of brand for the last 40 years still ring true in 2025. But now we have genuine modern brands that we can point to around physical mental availability, about distinctive brand assets, about mascots, about how do you go from founders starting in the niche to their. And continuing to need to build future demands. And both of them have done that and both of them need to continue to do that. And the CPG Poppy playbook start niche. But look at the cpg. Play with the big kids. Know who you're building for. And who knows, there might be another couple of billion dollar acquisitions over the, over the coming years.

[Fergus]

And I would just say that I think that boards need to realize what their responsibility is in a brand. I think they're doing a good job of it with Poppy. There is a CEO in place with Poppy who's behind the scene. We can assume there's some a lot of governance. I don't think that was evident at all with the Tesla board. I think that they could have done a far better job of corporate governance and managing Elon's personality. I think he went rogue and he didn't go rogue with a post. He went rogue for like a year. And so that of course, has impacted the brand. So better corporate governance and everything could maybe work better in the world. It is Ali Chastain, group strategy director of the Martin Agency. Matt Maynard, head of brand for Asana in San Francisco. Matthew Herbert, co founder and co CEO of Tracksuit out of New York City. I think he's in London now. The man moves around the world. And Vanessa Chin is SVP Marketing for System 1. Great to have everybody back to talk about brands they've never worked on. So forgive us for our outbursts and misinformation, which is a common theme in society today. Thanks everybody and we will see you all on the next episode, which will be next month. And who knows who will visit us and be with us at that time. So we'll see everybody then. Have a great week, everyone. Bye.