← On Strategy Showcase
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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to On Strategy Showcase. I'm Fergus o' Carroll in Chicago. I don't know if many of you guys are watching, are big fans of tennis. I've been watching the US Open and as I've mentioned on the show a couple of weeks ago, my daughters, I have twin daughters. I have actually three daughters. But my twins have just left for college and as a result, I don't have to compete for screen time to the degree that I used to have to compete for that. And as a result, I've gone into a rabbit hole in the US Open. I love watching tennis and I have literally spent every evening for the last two weeks watching tennis. And the men's final is today. So hopefully that brings an end of that to me for a while until the Australian Open, which I think happens in January. So that's how my evening times are being spent recently. Not that my wife is that thrilled about it. We are back out on live tour. We are starting off in Dallas. That's gonna be happening Thursday evening Sept, which is coming up a week after this episode releases. Then the following week, which is Thursday, September 25th, we are going to be at Mischief in Brooklyn. They have a brand new office there. And we're excited to debate the following. Has what really matters ever changed? And obviously there's a ton of change going on in our industry where we've got the chattering class talking from the bleachers, but we're on the field and so we, I think we, I hope we can keep a clear eye on what really matters. And so we're gonna talk about various points of view on that topic on the night. We've got Tom Morton. He was formerly global chief Strategy Officer at rga. He has now opened up a place called Narratori Capital. He's the founder and chief strategy officer of Narratori. Jeff McCrory is chief strategy officer for Mischief. Tas Dystopoulos is executive strategy director for the McDonald's business at Wieden and Kennedy. Emily Portnoy is Chief Strategy Officer for BBDO New York. And Annabel Casso is Ogilvy's North American Chief Strategy Officer. All of these folks are joining me to talk about this topic and I would love it to be a group collective effort that involves the audience, so the audience members. It's hit or miss for the tour in terms of when audiences get involved. And I'm always sort of puzzled by that because as strategists we're known as having opinions, but we tend to be very quiet in audiences. So hopefully for this season, we'll get a lot of participation throughout the evening at each of our shows. We're gonna be in New York, as I said, September 25th. Then we go on to Los Angeles, then we go to London, then we go to Chicago, then we go to San Francisco, then we go to Atlanta. I hope I haven't missed any cities out there. I am thrilled to have along on the journey with us, our supporters I, the Effies Worldwide and Tracksuit. Those guys are making this tour possible. And so I think we should show our appreciation by checking them out and supporting their products and their services. We could not do this without these guys. Back to today's episode. We are talking about a new creative company out of London. It's called Ace of Hearts. It's brought to us by three great talents. We know Martin Beverly and Rick Brim from Adam and Eve ddb, the brilliant work that they have done there for a decade. And Polly McMurro came out of McCann in London to join these guys to create Ace of Hearts. We're going to be talking about their vision for the company. We're going to be talking about what they think of others who are sort of ahead of them in terms of people that have gone out and created these sorts of organizations before, such as Mischief, such as Uncommon, and talk about those in the context of what these guys are going to be doing. And like many people who are great admirers of these guys, I am super excited for what's about to come for them in terms of their outputs as an organization. I think that how they talk about the business may not be revolutionary. It may not be new to a lot of ears, but because of the nature of their talent, we know that brilliance is gonna come out. Stuff that we can all admire. And who would not want to be associated with the these three talented people in terms of the industry. And I've always felt, and it's reinforced by this conversation, that there is a massive appetite among CMOs and among brands for a different approach, a fresh approach to ideas, a fresh sort of value to be placed on creativity. And so these guys are gonna jump into that pool and prove us. All right, so here is my conversation with Rick, Polly and Martin. Enjoy. So it is great to have this crew on here. This is the new team behind Ace of Hearts. Regular listeners will know the great Richard Brim and Martin Beverly, who's equally great. They've been on the show a number of times before, and they have partnered up with Polly McMorrow, who is the former CEO of McCann in London and got amazing background, of course, with BBH and tons of prestige. So my first question is for Polly, how did you get these guys to leave Adam and Eve ddb?
- [05:42]
B
There's a funny thing that I always, I love about this industry, which is genuinely when you meet people who want to go and do interesting, different things, there's no stopping any of this. And so there's, there's such a. I feel like we're all such kindred spirits in the way that we want to bring creativity to bear. And the minute we all started talking and frankly having too many margaritas, that was actually, the other bit of it was, was drink. But, but aside from that, no, we just, we got excited by all the things that we could do together. And from that moment on, actually it was, we were off, we were off to the races.
- [06:13]
A
So I think, I think, Martin, you guys have managed to destroy, further destroy my faith in advertising agencies by leaving Adam and Eve ddb. What was behind the move? I mean, you guys, because, you know, from the outside looking in and I know you guys loved it there and we're not here to say anything bad about Adam and Eve ddb, but you guys were doing from a strategic perspective, from a creative perspective, some of the best work in the world. And so I think there's a lot of people who want to understand what then becomes the motivation to step out of that or away from that.
- [06:48]
C
Well, thank you for the kind words. Yeah, it's kind of mad really that we, we didn't really want to leave, as you say. Like Rick and I loved, as many continue to love Adam and Eve and so many people there. And we'd had a very lucky run for a decade and made a lot of work we were really proud of, but I think we just didn't necessarily have anything more to prove. And we were really, we always had this kind of itch for a few years of doing our own thing and trying to start something from scratch and do it differently. And that itch just got a little itchier until we decided, yeah, let's just do it. And maybe I was also just getting a little bit middle aged, having a bit of a midlife crisis, like, what am I going to do next? And this just felt like it wouldn't be boring, it'd be really exciting. And six weeks in, it's definitely been that.
- [07:36]
A
Rick, how about for you?
- [07:38]
D
Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything that Marcy just said. Adam and Eve, it's a very, very hard place to leave. You're surrounded by brilliant clients and excellent people. And over the years we've been privileged enough to be offered some very interesting other roles. And actually the thing that I think that stopped us all is, has been they're not your people. And I think when we. Going back to your first question with Polly, when the three of us got together and we spoke, I felt really excited again. And I wasn't not excited for Adam and Eve, but I was just a little bit more excited about the possibility of what we could do and what we could do if we didn't have a sort of playbook of how it's done. Like how can we innovate and how can we look at things differently? And as you say, it's a very, very hard place to leave. And I think only that sort of opportunity would have convinced me to leave there.
- [08:43]
A
So do you leave with a client list? I don't mean client list from Adam and Eve ddb. But do you leave knowing what you're jumping into? Because a leap of faith sometimes tough, particularly via family and financial responsibilities. Did you know what you were leaping into or were you leaping into the abyss?
- [09:03]
C
Not client wise? We've leapt into the unknown in terms of who we might partner with, client wise. But I suppose we're betting on ourselves and we're hoping to find some amazing partners that we can do some amazing work with. And I think the unknown is part of what excites us about it. So we're hoping to find some amazing new clients that we can do some amazing new work with. And that's what makes it exciting. We'd done a decade at Adam and Eve, Rick and I, and we knew all of those clients really well and we're really proud of the work and now we're sort of starting from scratch and that gives us something to prove again, which is terrifying, by the way, but also really exciting at the same time because this could become anything we don't know yet.
- [09:52]
A
And so is the. So Polly, are there other investors behind the new shop or what's sort of the ownership structure right now?
- [10:00]
B
Yeah, there are. So we've got some minority investors, but to be honest with you, we look at them like strategic partners. It was a very intentional. Our business setup was one. And I guess it's linked to what Martin and Rick were just saying. The industry is a sort of interesting inflection point more broadly right now. And actually being able to bring to bear the scale that data and media and like world class capabilities in things like AI and content at scale give you is so Important, but that doesn't mean that you need to have scale as a business to be able to benefit from them. And so it was a really strategic decision that we wanted to, to go into business and to have a strategic partner that could work with us that would give us that scale in the places that we wanted to push into. But importantly, that allowed us to run our own independent business. So Service Plan Group, which is, I don't know how much you know of it, it's run by a brilliant group of individuals who we like hugely and respect hugely. But importantly, it's about a marriage of sort of two equal parties, which is they believe in us for the way that we believe in creativity and the impact it has on business. And they themselves are a hugely progressive data media, production, AI business that we can all gel together on. So that is our ownership structure initially. Although, you know, we, we believe fiercely that we don't want to be the only shareholders within the business. And as our business grows, we really hope that we'll bring other people on that journey with us from within the business.
- [11:44]
A
So, Martin, how would you describe what Ace of Hearts is? What type of. Is it a shop? Is it an agency? Is it a creative boutique? Is it. What do you. How do you describe it?
- [11:56]
C
We call ourselves a creative company. And what we want to do is help our partners win by putting creativity at the heart of business. So we want to solve problems for clients upstream. We want to work very closely with them and their brand and solve problems in all kinds of ways. And that isn't to say we won't do advertising. We love advertising and we've done that a lot in the past. And for some clients, that is a brilliant way to solve their problem. But we also want to try and work on a broader canvas and really experiment with lots of different things in quite a neutral way. I think at their worst, advertising agencies become kind of expensive, coloring in around the edges, and they're not necessarily that attuned to where the brand or business needs to be at their worst. At their best, they can be incredible business transforming creative companies. And that's why we're being hopefully a little broader and a little more expansive in how we're positioning ourselves. And we really want to experiment with different ways to do things because we're totally free to do that in this new role.
- [13:04]
A
So in what ways do you see that as being different than mischief or an uncommon.
- [13:11]
C
Well, I wouldn't necessarily try to position ourselves directly against that. I think in terms of the industry overall, I think too Many agencies have lost their seat at the top table and I think creativity has become this kind of weak word and it should be a really strong word that really gives you advantage in business. And I think I'm a massive fan of both mischief and uncommon because I think what they've done is brought something different to the sector and they have created momentum very quickly and they've also done something which is quite rare in our industry in that they've created a brand. So they aren't just another agency. They very strong brand that has a name and an identity that is clear. And I think we have the same ambition to create our own brand that can be very strong in the category.
- [14:03]
A
So I mean, I think, Rick, when, when I think back to my conversations with you and Martin before, one of the things that always struck me and it struck me most specifically with you guys is, is you're sort of like professional partners in the same way you have a life partner. It's like you guys have been so lucky to find each other and it works really well. And it kind of underscores my belief that success comes from teams, not from agencies like just small teams of people. Small teams always seem to be at the heart of every successful agency account. Whether it's a huge, enormous, multi billion dollar account. It always seems to be that team in the corner are really the ones that are making it happen. So do you feel that that's part of your appeal is not even so much the model but the fact that you guys have this phenomenal reputation and it's arguably who wouldn't want to have access to you guys?
- [15:07]
D
I think that's very kind and I think one of the things that we, we want to do with, with Ace of Hearts and we talk about, we talk about the hearts that make up Ace of Hearts and it is about that. It's about. We don't want it to be about any, any 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 people. He wants it to be about the gang. We want it to be about the collective. We most definitely want this to be. So we're starting off with the three of us. The three of us are finishing each other's sentences off. Just like when we were Adam and Evil, Martin and I were partners. Now it's the three of us. And, which is, which is absolutely amazing because there's just one more person so you get a different perspective and it's also a lot less boring. And, and, and the, the, the, the other idea is, is, is, is. Is that. And actually the, the hiring bit I was Listening to a podcast the other weekend and someone who's talking about hiring is 25% of the job and making sure that the people you bring on the journey with you and the people that you, that you bring into, into the fold aren't, don't, don't see it's just another job. They don't see it as, as they, they, they, they want to be part of something and they want to be. I think, I think we just need to expand the gang as much as we can. And listen, me, I appreciate that we, we have, that we have a certain amount until it pops, but until that we, and then maybe we, we split off into micro gangs or like micro. But I do believe, and, and it was one of the things that we said during lockdown, which was keeping seven people around the table that' to solve any problem is seven of the right people around the table. And that's, that's, that's what, that's one of the reasons we're taking investment, so we can get our own fair share of the talent around the table. A really diverse mix of talent around the table of opinions, backgrounds and specialities. And, and that's, that's. And then just put, then, then once you've got that, you can put any problem into the center of it and we can all swarm around it. I think what, what's made, what's made the agencies we've all worked out great in the past is when. Is when you don't have the big machine behind you. You have a group of people with a problem in the center of the table and you swarm around it and you solve it. And I think that's what, that's all we want to do here, but we want to do it in a different way. We want to do it in a way that I think going back to your question before, I think creativity is one of the most powerful business. And if you talk to, if you talk to people who are founding companies today, they will always put creativity as one of their main, their main skills, the main, the thing they hold most dear. So we've been talking to some people this week, and one of them was a founding a company and said, what's your main attribute? And he says, my creativity. The founders put creativity at the heart of the business they're starting, but not every business has that. So I think that's what our role needs to be, moving into the future.
- [18:01]
A
One of the things that a lot of people say, because what Martin was saying earlier, I totally get and I think everybody in the street totally gets this idea that advertising has a limited but important role and that we want to be outside of that. Talk a little more, Martin, about what that actually means so that we can signal it for people. What does it mean to use, what are examples of creativity applied to business beyond comms? What does that look like? What do you want it to look like for people?
- [18:27]
C
Sometimes advertising is the way to solve a business problem, but we just want to be far more neutral than that and be able to go more upstream within a business and brand and think about things far more holistically. Because often you get a brief as an ad agency and it says that the problem is raising awareness. That isn't actually always the problem. Like it's sort of, on the surface it might be. And so I think we would like, like some of the projects that we're already working on are how you might redefine a brand identity or how you might reframe the business proposition so that you're working more in a subscription loyalty space. So that we just. We're trying to be genuine business partners with a creative lens on everything. And by saying all of that, Ferguson and I know we're going to still create a lot of advertising because we know how to do that and we know how to make that work really hard for clients. But we're very keen as well that we're just more experimental than that. And I think in our past careers we got really excited when we did things differently. It was a different shape and a different type of result and maybe the objective was different from the outset. And I think we're just very keen to bring that experimental mindset to this.
- [19:45]
A
And then Polly, for you, do you guys sense that there's a lot of big brands that are struggling with this exact problem? Or is it more startups, is it more mid sized companies? Where do you see the opportunity? Because I think that there is a very fair point to say that there's a lot of CMOs who look out at their partners and there's this sort of built in, sort of rhythm to the way that they work and they're struggling to find ways of breaking out of it. Does this begin to become the solution to that?
- [20:17]
B
Yeah, I think so. I think this. I get excited, we all get excited by this notion that the industry is having this sort of cellular regeneration at the moment. Like everything is being reimagined and reconsidered and challenged. And I do, I think that, I think that for a million good and bad reasons, creativity has been defined in A sort of vertical of business. And the reason that we talk about putting creativity back at the heart of it is because it should play across a business, not down a business. It's. It should, you should have a stronger point of view on supply chains and logistics and anything that is going to impact any shape of a business. Because there's no doubt a way that creativity can be brought to bear in those ways. So. And I think that what's happening at the moment and the disruption that you talk about or to is one which I think is falling out of some really healthy challenge of is this the right way that we're doing all of this actually? Is building armies against something the right way to do it? Is advertising being seen as a cost on a P and L, not as a disproportionate accelerator on one the right way of looking at it? And I think that, I think that throwing all of that up in the air is an incredibly healthy thing for the, for the industry to be doing right now. And I believe that what we're building is a great answer to it. But to directly answer, is that just founder led businesses? No, definitely not. I actually think there's more disruption happening in bigger businesses and I think they can now be partnered by very different shapes of companies. And we often talk about the fact that when we think about our kind of, our point of difference, I guess, or why we're different. To go back to your question earlier on about some great agencies that have done things, I don't necessarily think that what we're doing is groundbreaking. I think we're doing it at a time that the industry is in such flux that it becomes ever more relevant. And I think when I say that it's because great creative companies, not just agencies, great creative companies have almost always come out of times of flux. They've come out of moments where actually the world doesn't quite know what's happening to it and creativity suddenly gets revalued in a way that it should do.
- [22:45]
A
So Rick, how do you feel? I mean, you guys have talked about it, you've talked about AI, you've talked about data. How do you as a, as a creative think about those things? Is it artificial creativity in your mind or are you able to. Or can you sort of see a great role in how you'll be able to use those tools?
- [23:03]
D
Yeah, I think they're tools and I think they will do a lot of the groundwork and a lot of the grunt work. I think ultimately there has to be an organization or an or like, that has tastes and uses them as tools and uses and. And. And directs them. Because I think I. I heard an amazing. I was listening to a podcast the other week, and it was the guy who wrote the Big Short, and he was saying that some album came up to him at a party and said, do you know anybody that can write my autobiography? And he was like, well, your machines. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, well, ask them to tell you a joke. And there's things that at the moment, it's brilliant at and will only get better. And there's things that I think it will need people with taste and a human sensibility to help it out and guide it. So that's kind of how I see us.
- [24:12]
A
So, Martin, how about. How about for you? When you look at what you. What you want to do now, do you see strategy playing a different role? Do you see a different skill set needed to play that role? What does it look like?
- [24:26]
C
I think the tenets of strategy don't really change over time. Like, I. I think our job as strategists within Ace of Hearts is always to understand the problem. It's always to understand the audience is to make sure we're creating a platform for creativity. There's a really good springboard, and it's about making sure that that work works, and a lot of that stuff isn't going to change. But I think the tools for how you get there are changing quickly, and we can embrace those with the partnership that we have. And arguably, you don't need a huge agency anymore of people, because you can work more quickly if you have the right tools. And I think I kind of use the word earlier experiment. We're really keen to experiment with this. Like, we want to try new things and adopt, like, different ways of doing things, because we're totally free to do so. And the other thing, which I just really want this to be, is just bags of fun. And I mean that, like, in quite a fundamental way. Like when you said earlier about the way that we would work in the past, we always tried to make it fun. We wanted people to come and show us ideas and talk about ideas and bounce them around and muck around and just be playful. And we genuinely believe that gets to the best work. And at the moment, the industry feels so downtrodden a lot of the time. It doesn't feel like it's creating this kind of optimistic vision and strategy. One definition of strategy is to imagine a brighter future, and I really want us to do that as a Brand as well and create something which the industry goes, yeah, that feels interesting and exciting and maybe, maybe that would be fun to be part of, or maybe there's something we can learn from that because it does just feel pretty negative out there at the moment when you speak about the industry. And we're really keen to be like a double positive. Like, our name is Double Positive Ace of Hearts. It's like the high lucky card. So I really hope we can live up to that.
- [26:30]
A
So is that. Is that what's behind the name? Is it's the high lucky card?
- [26:35]
C
Well, it's part of it. I mean, it's. It's also like. It's about winning and it's about putting creativity at the heart business. And, you know, also, we're taking a bit of a gamble with this. I think it means like a few things, but I think, to the point earlier, we're really keen to start a brand which sounds quite high for losing, but we really want this to be. Have its own identity and its own freedom to be, especially when we're advising clients on their brand. We want our own really strong brand in this space.
- [27:03]
D
You mentioned mischief before. The one thing that's always struck me about mischief and the work they put out and the way they talk to people, the way that you see them talking out in the world is you get a very strong sense that they're having a lot of fun, that they are enjoying it. They're going into clients and clients are enjoying the process and enjoy. And, and, and they get work out and some of it's absolutely bonkers and some of it's great and some of it's fine and, and it's. It's just like it doesn't matter because we'll do more and we'll do this and we'll do. And it doesn't. It doesn't feel like they. They don't feel like clenched in any way.
- [27:40]
A
Right.
- [27:41]
D
And I think the industry at the moment feels quite clenched and quite. And they just feel. They just feel sort of quite nimble and quite free and quite. And you can really smell it in the work and the way they hold themselves in the outside world.
- [27:57]
C
Yeah.
- [27:57]
A
I mean, they do have these principles that they work by. I agree with you. And also their growth, the amount of growth that they're experiencing, just should signal to everybody in the industry that there is an appetite for what's being done and it's not being served. So I kind of think that you guys begin to meet that need. It's like, I Think there's an awful lot of people that are craving an.
- [28:21]
D
Alternative and just, just. I think, I think if you look at what's. What's happening in Cannes with what happened with the awards this year, everything's just got a little bit too. Just too much. It just needs the. It just needs the pressure valve just taking off a little bit. Let it all go out. And, and it all just feels. It feels like we're. The industry's in a pressure cooker and we've got to win a million awards and we've got to win a million clients. And actually you don't get that energy from mischief at all. We're just doing what we're doing and we'll enter awards if we like our work. And if it wins awards, then brilliant. If not, it's not about that. And they just have a really healthy attitude on everything. And I think we need to. I understand why that happens. When you're running a network, when you're in part of a big network, the, the stakes are higher.
- [29:14]
A
Yeah. But as are the limitations.
- [29:17]
D
Yeah. So with that comes its limitations and with that comes the, the behavior that, that will very naturally in this environment, promote.
- [29:27]
C
We'd really like it to feel like an optimistic place because I think that's where the best talent wants to be part of that, that kind of infectious positivity. And we've got no excuse to not be that because we can start from scratch and we can hopefully choose the partners and the talent that we work with. So we, we have a once in a lifetime opportunity to create something really special that has an amazing vibe to it. So I really hope we can do that because I feel like, you know, that's, that's the kind of place that throughout my career I always wanted to work was where it looks like there's fun. It looks like the best work is bubbling away. And we're desperate to create that here for ourselves because I think that will also lead us to create a successful business as well.
- [30:12]
D
I think one of the things to add to that is. And actually Polly is the gatekeeper of this, so she constantly questions us on, is always sleepwalking into behavior that we've learned in the past, constantly questioning us and constantly sort of making sure that the three of us are all sort of like, is this the best way to do this or is this the way that we know how to do it? Because that's how we've been taught and, and I think that's one of the most. That's been one of the Most sort of scary yet enriching parts of this is constantly questioning how we do stuff because it's very easy to slip back into learned behavior.
- [30:54]
A
Well, your learned behavior is pretty. It's paid off pretty damn well though, right?
- [30:58]
B
It's difficult to challenge it, isn't it? You're like, well, what? Oh, no, brilliant stuff came with that. Well done. Keep going. You're right.
- [31:05]
A
Yeah. It's like you guys are. Have been doing the best of the best of the work. It's like maybe the way you were doing it was working well. Why does that need to change? Or do you not feel it was the best of the best?
- [31:19]
D
It's not, it's not changing things for the sake of changing things. It's, it's, it's. It's. How can we, how can we make it better? And how can we. How can we make it? How Constantly questioning, is this the right way to continue doing things? Things because you've had success in the way of doing things. The instinct is to just step, repeat, step, repeat, step, repeat, and you want to progress.
- [31:47]
A
So what's different about Rick Brim's creative department at Adam and Eve and now at this new company? What's going to be different about it?
- [31:56]
D
Well, at the moment, the difference is that Rick's Prince Creative department doesn't exist. It's Rick Brim and a bunch of. Bunch of talented individuals all over the world that have freelanced. But I think what, what will be different about the creative department here is I want a slightly more modern shape of greater department. And in terms of the talent that we get in, I want people that. I don't really know what they're talking about, but I kind of like it. And that's when. When I'm learning and they're learning and we're all sort of. And that may work, it may not work, but I'll be allowed to experiment with how we do things and how we can take some of the thinking that we've possibly given clients in the past and use it in a different way.
- [32:53]
B
I think when you do a job in a certain type of business and that's not for right or wrong, you really train a set of muscles and that becomes your default. And I think the same thing is true commercially, which is you default to a thing which is, well, this is what I've got to do. And then sort of you do sleep. You sleep walk into behaviors commercially that are expected. And actually if you took a step back and just in the position that we're in now, and just go, what do we think good value looks like for the sort of creativity that we believe delivers disproportionately for businesses? So if we do, then that business will probably have a commercial culture, whether they're founder led or they're huge multinationals. You've got things that you go, value exchange in different businesses are different and we want to have a proper, healthy conversation about that. So we don't want to work on an Hours plus, because creativity doesn't work in an hours plus model. Like, it just doesn't. It's so extraordinary that if someone arrived and just went, can you explain how commercially 97% of the commercial deals in this industry are done? We don't. That's not how ideas are conceived, it's not how they're protected, it's not how they're nurtured. So why, why in the name of Christ is that how we're charging? Like, it's such an odd way. So like Rick said and Bev's use the word experiment, we're experimenting. I love the commercial side of our business and I want to be able to have good conversations. We tend to meet CFOs before we get into any conversations to understand what it is that they actually believe in. How do they value creativity? Because I think it's lazy at its worst. I think it's lazy of us as an industry to assume that clients automatically want us to charge like that. I think it's become the sort of norm of how that works. But I think the minute that you have proper conversations with humans who understand the impact that creativity can have, then you can have some of the richest conversations in the world about how that happens. We've done deals where we've delineated between the idea cost and the deployment cost sofa in perpetuity kind of ip. But more importantly, it's, do you or do you not subscribe to a big idea that in the strategic world, you're talking about compound interest of an idea, why would you pay us for that once and never again? That should be the core of everything you pay for. And then how you deploy it goes up and down, which is just one. But that's because that worked for that client, because that's what they needed, was an enduring platform for others. It'll be completely different. The thing that, and Rick generously says it, the thing that we as a business are passionate about is recalibrating what value exchange looks like in creativity and understanding that that's not a one size fits all thing, but it Definitely is something that's been undervalued in the way that the sort of the dominant way of costing those things happened.
- [35:42]
A
Will Ace of Hearts pitch?
- [35:47]
C
Yeah, yeah. But we.
- [35:52]
A
What about those behaviors? Come on, come on.
- [35:58]
C
I deliberately stuttered on it because, for example, the first pitch that we won, we refused to go and pitch with ideas and execution that every other agency went and threw everything at it. And we said, no, we don't feel like we're ready to do that. We want to talk to you about the problem that you have and the shifts that you fundamentally need to make, and we want to talk about that. And that was our pitch and we won. And I'm really proud of that because we did it our way. We didn't just throw away execution and throw away creativity. We did what we felt was right. And that partner recognized that in us. I think there is a kind of desperation in the industry where now a chemistry meeting is a full blown pitch where everyone just sort of throws stuff in. And I think we, we really want to make sure that we're getting to the right problem before we jump to a solution. And we're also often saying to people that might want to work with us, well, we don't really like pitches. They're really fake. Like they're just a kind of popularity contest. We would much rather work with you for a little bit and see how you feel. So we are, we will pitch, but almost as a last resort if we feel like it's the right opportunity for us, but it's certainly not the place that we would most like to play. And so far we've been mostly adhering to that. We've done one big pitch because we felt like it was a really good opportunity. But we've also said no quite a lot too.
- [37:26]
A
Yeah, it's interesting because for what you're talking about in terms of your ambition, is the CMO the way in? Because a lot of those CMOs have no control over what you want to get into, right?
- [37:39]
C
Yeah, sometimes. And actually a couple of the conversations we had last week were with founders where you can get straight into what's really going on and what they're really looking for and what they would be prepared to pay for that. I mean, I had an alarming conversation a couple of years ago with someone who said, you know that the advertising agency business model is terrible, right? Like, awful. And I was like, yeah, no, I know. He's like, because you're just charging a day rate, so there's a ceiling there and the margins are Getting lower and you give away your ideas for free.
- [38:13]
A
Yeah, ridiculous.
- [38:14]
C
Yeah, it just at the time really got me thinking about the different ways that you can do it. And I, I think we're going to really try and change that because if we are remunerated on outputs and outcomes and occasionally we might take equity or occasionally we might have IP and we try to shift the model, that's going to be better for us and the industry. If you're just charging for the time it takes, that's also going to get worse over time. So we're really, really trying to change that. But it is a, it's against the grain for sure. But I do think some of the partners we've spoken to seem really up for a different way of doing things. So we're not necessarily just defaulting to the way it's done.
- [38:58]
B
I'm just jumping in on that as well. Because I do think, and you've heard it from all of us, it's so people oriented. So you're going to have CMOs who are brilliant, who are incredibly expansive about the way they think about their businesses, who are true partners in really like getting under the bonnet of what's happening and they will give you full access to those things. And those partners are unbelievable. And actually whether they're part of they part of our long distant past or they're part of our future, finding those people is so brilliant because you're just like, great. So sometimes they do come in the CMO form. But I do think that increasingly we need to be able to hold and host conversations with very different parts of businesses because I think that business is becoming ever more complicated. I do think that as an industry, I think that there will come a moment where there's a reappraisal of whether pitches are a good long term way of assessing partnership, which is a slightly different point. But I think that there's not a one size fits all. Sometimes we'll pitch if we believe that that's the right answer to get to it, but it's all people.
- [40:04]
A
It's almost as if somebody needs to come out. And I've always felt that it was. You would have to be big, well known, not big, but very well known. Creative shops such as yourselves, such as Mischief, such as Wieden, to come into the dynamic and say, we're not going to pitch for free, we're not going to throw our ideas for free. It seems that unless there's some sort of a union perspective from the industry about that, it's just never going to change. And I've not heard from many of the shops that I've mentioned, particularly from Wieden, where I was like, why don't you guys just not fucking pitch? Don't pitch. Mischief doesn't pitch. And it sends a brilliant signal to the marketplace that, oh, oh, shit. If you want the best talent, you have to change your behaviors, too, on the client side.
- [40:53]
C
Well, it's the definition of a really strong brand, isn't it?
- [40:56]
A
Absolutely.
- [40:57]
C
All the different behavior. Which is why I was so stuttery when you asked the question, because I kind of want to answer, yes. I don't think we can do that always, but we're going to. You know, I think trying to not play the game and play our own game is absolutely what we're trying to do here. But I just think there is a. The way the industry works. I do think occasionally, for the right opportunity, we will, we will pitch. But we are definitely. That's been in the minority of things in terms of how we've done it so far.
- [41:28]
A
So just one or two final things. How did you guys. How did you guys meet Polly? And why was Polly the right fit?
- [41:40]
B
Slight blind date. Good.
- [41:41]
C
Yeah. Polly and I met at an industry thing a little while back and I was.
- [41:50]
A
A little while back? Just a little. Or have you guys known each other for years?
- [41:53]
C
A little while back, yeah. And I was immediately blown away by Polly because she has this, like, amazing sort of positive, forceful energy. So when you meet her, she's just like. And you kind of can't. You can't sort of avoid that magnetism. That's how I felt. And then she loves creative work. So that was so important to Rick and I that. That is something that we wanted in our agency was a real, like, really care about the output. Like, we really care. And so does Potty. And also she has a different kind of commercial lens on things. So when we started speaking about the agency model, as you've heard today, she's got very strong opinions on it, and that's what we also wanted alongside the creativity. Also, she's. She's great fun. She's super smart. Like, we. We kind of just fell in love with her and thought, well, if there's anyone we're going to do it with, it should be Polly.
- [42:56]
B
Christ of almighty. I feel like I've died. It's good.
- [43:04]
A
Yeah, I love it.
- [43:05]
C
So then she got stuck.
- [43:07]
D
I was. I was gonna. I was gonna say something. It's very important that, that it's, it's. It's a Three, not a two. And. And it became very obvious that as soon as we. As soon as we started going for regular sort of drinks, there was an equal sort of parity and an equal love and everybody knew where they were. We were all started finishing each other's sentences. And we also, because I end up. Because we. We are very aware that there's two that come from a different agency. And. And what was great is that. Is that all went out the window.
- [43:44]
C
Which I'm much happier about.
- [43:46]
B
No, but it is. And it's like it. It's. And I'm just jumping in. You haven't even been gone there with me. But there is a lovely generous thing that happens when you meet people who it is. We're a little gang, we're a little group. And. And there has been such a sort of openness to going as Rick said, that actually just even challenge of. Are we all sleep walking into it? Are we all sleep walking into it? Because we've all come from strong cultures. Whether that was me at BBH back in the day or McCann or the guys in Adam as Adam and Eve. We've all come from very strong cultures of businesses and we've all got to levels that's meant that we've honed those muscles. And part of the Brit that's been brilliant but very. It's one of the most enjoyable bits is actually just finding a new rhythm with it. Finding a new little. A new little crew and that. And like Rick said earlier, that's with us and that's with the other people that. That are coming on board.
- [44:34]
A
So when is the. When's the first piece of. When's the first output going to be in the world where we can all look to it and begin to judge you? Because we're gonna judge the out of you, that's for sure. Oh, that's not like Adam and Eve, you know. People are gonna go goddamn nuts about it. Better be good.
- [44:58]
B
We'll let you know. It'll be soon. I think end of the summer.
- [45:01]
A
Better not be an ad.
- [45:04]
B
Don't you worry. We'll make sure it's not. Yeah. That sort of time you'll be. You'll be starting to see things but exactly as you've said. Actually, I think it will be in different shapes in different places. So sometimes I think it'll look more traditional and sometimes I think it will look completely new and sort of radically different. So I think it will probably be two or three things rather than just one thing would be my instinct.
- [45:26]
A
So you think in the last couple of months.
- [45:27]
D
Whatever it is is interesting and not. And. And.
- [45:30]
B
Yeah.
- [45:30]
D
And. And makes you think that I'll be happy.
- [45:33]
A
It's Martin Beverly, Polly McMorrow and Richard Brim. They are the three folks behind Ace of Hearts in London. I'm like many people, I'm super excited to see what happens with this. I'm imagining the best stuff is going to happen with it. Just great people and amazing talent. Thank you all for being on the show.
- [45:55]
B
Thank you very much.
- [45:57]
A
And the best of luck. It's going to be amazing. And maybe you guys can bring John Lewis back to you guys and then you can do great things with John Lewis and make Christmas happy again because hasn't been that happy recently. Good luck. Thanks to everybody. Good luck. And we will see everyone on the next episode.