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- [00:00]
A
Welcome to OnStrategy Showcase. I'm Fergus O' Carroll in Chicago. Hope everybody had a great week. Just some updates on some new episodes. We've got the Dose Equis return of the Most Interesting man in the World campaign which has been done by Lapub out of New York. So we have the client and the agency on to talk about that. Where has this campaign been for the last 10 years is the big question. We also have a train line which is well known to those of you who are in the uk. Wieden and Kennedy came into the studio last week. We had a conversation. We'll have that episode out soon. Neurafan, which is a grand Fe winner out of McCann London, is going to be out soon. Love that campaign. And we're going to be doing a new six part series on planning for effective outcomes. You may remember we did this a couple of years ago. I've mentioned it recently. We're going to be updating that for 2026, so the episodes should start rolling out in the next few weeks. I don't have a specific date yet, but stay tuned for that to happen. We have the last stop on our 202526 season of our live tour. We're going to be wrapping up the season in San Francisco and that is going to be taking place on Thursday evening, March 12th at Uber's headquarters in San Francisco. Really excited about that. Its theme is Life in the Valley, how marketing is making the Valley build. And so we're going to be talking to Coinbase's Gareth K. You guys may know Gareth from his many years as a terrific planner and a real thought leader in the category. He's joining us at the roundtable. Airbnb's Whitney McGraw is behind a lot of their brilliant work. We're excited to have her join us. Uber's Danielle Hawley, who kicks ass at Uber, working with the special group and others to produce so much of the work that you see on air these days. I'm very excited to have her as a part of it. And then we have one open slot left at the Roundtable, which we will let you know about. Hopefully next week you can get tickets for that event on our homepage@onstrategyshowcase.com you can see on the homepage there's the Live Tour tab. Click in there and you can grab your tickets. It's Thursday evening, March 12th at 6 at Uber. More details as we get a little bit closer. So back to today's show. We're talking about the creative Dividend, which is a book that's been released by the FES in partnership with System One. It is a full deep analysis of EFFIE cases over the years Contrasted against System 1 data and results from their ad testing system. So they've merged this together to come up with a framework, we'll call it, that is sort of a way to think about successful campaigns. And I think that if you look at this, I think you'll get a really good sense of this possibly being that sort of one stop shop book that gives you a way to think about it, a way to think about building business cases to help you in not only developing great campaigns, but also in selling in the concept of great campaigns and the overall case for marketing being what it truly is, which is a growth driver, not simply a business expense. You can download the book for free. Yeah, it's free. It's about 120 pages. Brilliant illustrated charts of how that will help you begin to think through and demonstrate the case, as well as some case studies and narratives that are well worth your time. You can Download it@effie.org Effie.org on the homepage, if you scroll down, you'll see the Creative Dividend and if you're watching us on YouTube, this is the actual front cover of it and it'll help you understand where that icon is. That's the Creative Stack icon that you're seeing on screen. But check it out. Fe.org, this is a conversation with Fe CEO Tracy Alford, Fe CMO Juliet Hagarth and System One's SVP partnerships Andrew Tindall and Joy. So we are here to talk about the Creative Dividend and it's a free book that you can download and we'll give you some more details as we get into the show. But before we started I wanted of course to share with everybod this. So this of course is the FE that I've just been informed. It does not go that way. It actually goes this way because it is a progression of effectiveness and impact on the business, chart wise. So very excited. This always sits on our SAT back here which takes a place of pride. So we are happy to showcase it here and happy to have Tracy and Juliet and Andrew on the show and welcome back and thank you for being here everybody.
- [05:04]
B
Thanks for having us.
- [05:07]
A
So we are here to talk about the Creative Dividend, a book that has been published with the FES and with System 1. And I'm thrilled to have you guys here to talk through it. It's an important Read. I have read through the vast majority of, really builds upon a lot of work that's out there, brings together also a lot of work that is out there and puts a new lens on it and adds a lot. So I'm excited to have this conversation. But, Tracy, I wanted to start off with why this book, why this report? What were the goals for EFFIE going in?
- [05:47]
C
So I think, as you know, EFFIE exists to champion effectiveness. You know, it's a discipline of driving measurable business results. We evaluate, we celebrate cases that have this impact. But I think in this instance, we did want to go just a little deeper and truly identify the consistent principles of business growth. So we combined our cases with System One's behavioral data. And I think that the key question that I think I can tell you, I'm incredibly proud that I believe we answered very well what truly creates commercial success. And I think we have done that in a very pragmatic way as well. So I think this, in this format, with this level of data, doesn't exist or hasn't existed previously.
- [06:40]
A
So, Andrew, for you, what do you think the problems that this work addresses? What do you think the problem has been in the marketplace that really needs this?
- [06:51]
D
Fergus, you alluded to just how long this book is, 120 pages, because I think there's a few problems it addresses.
- [07:01]
A
It has a lot of charts, though. So. It has a lot of charts. So that's important to remember.
- [07:04]
D
I also think it has a hundred charts because I personally designed them all late into the night. But we love a good chart. I've got them all printed around my room like artwork. So you asked kind of, Tracy, what the aims were going into this system. One's aim was specifically actually to prove the value of creativity. But when we actually got into it, it became a lot more than that. We actually realized a few things. One, you couldn't prove the value of creativity without considering the angle of media and planning from a media point of view, which kind of opened up a box of worms. We actually started off by interviewing around 400 global senior marketers. So we did research before the research to understand because if his goal and our shared partnership is about actually serving those that practice effectiveness to allow them to go on and do that job. So we asked them what they wanted to know from the industry. And I think there's this really nice insight that we start the book from that survey which shows that despite years and years of effectiveness literature and despite all these very fancy keynotes, we've actually seen that people are still not. Well, businesses are still not confident in campaign effectiveness and creativity's role in delivering that. So I think what this book does.
- [08:33]
A
Why do you think that is? I don't disagree with that. But why do you think that is? Has there been a gap that needs to be filled in order for that case to be made more effectively? Forgive the pun.
- [08:47]
D
I think if you look at a lot of the work out there at the moment, like Paul Dyson's famous work showing that creativity is a 12x multiplier of campaign effectiveness, that's great. But I think a lot of the work stopped there and didn't bother to really explain what creativity can mean. So I think that a lot of marketers are, yeah, creativity is great, but how do I then actually practice that? I also think, and this is something the book touches on is the world changed over the past decade. We started making a lot of our behavioral choices online, a lot less influenced by physical availability. We see more ads for a shorter amount of time. There's a lot more brands competing and I don't think that the principles have changed with that. So I feel like what, again, what this book tries to do is try to address that and show how brand building's changed as well.
- [09:42]
A
It's interesting because I've advocated for this on the show too. It's the idea that we tend to associate effectiveness with outcomes, but not so much with inputs. And I'm wondering, Juliet Effie is underscoring that point also here is that we have to influence the way that we behave day to day and make sure that each step and stage is effectively done in order for the subsequent phases to be effective.
- [10:10]
B
Yeah, we have a phrase at FE which is effectiveness is a day to day orientation. It's not an outcome. You start with it, you live it, you breathe it, and then the results follow. But I also think it's like human. It's a very human business as well. And that's. And that's why it needs to be an orientation. When we discovered that the thing that marketers are most scared of, it's putting their oomph behind creativity because they don't really know how to unpack it or make it happen. So they had the two top fears that were kind of driving their lack of confidence. One was short termism and the second was the confidence to do really brave creative work. So actually by giving people frameworks and kind of the right questions to ask at every single stage, you know, start off right, set your objectives right, understand how your category works, really get under the skin of the audience. You know, we could go on. It's the fundamentals, the really fundamental principles that really drive the process. And then the human bits of how we work and how we collaborate and how we manage our own feelings as we take big risks. I think it's those two things at play.
- [11:22]
D
When marketers don't have the confidence in creativity, they don't back it with enough media and scale and support for it to do the job that creativity can do in the first place. So we often see a lot of work in the industry that's brilliant and it deserves to be in front of more people in more places. But until we can recognize that creative quality and back it, we're never going to see all the beautiful things that creativity can do for businesses.
- [11:53]
A
So, I mean, Tracy, we've all been making this case for a number of years. I mean, what's the missing part of it? And I feel proud about the industry. The fact that particularly in the last two years, that business case is getting tighter and tighter. It's hard to ignore it anymore.
- [12:10]
C
It is. And I think what the Creative dividend does really well. Building on Juliet's point about this being an operating system is the way I kind of see it is that it's not just about a single campaign. And I think that sort of like it needs to come from sustained emotional empathy over a period of time. And I think for me it was very much in the discipline, which I think in some instances we see very much lost. And I think the strategic view and I think, you know, we're pushing against all the time, short term, you know, metrics and delivery. So again, going back to Andrew's point about this being a modern piece of marketing literature, is that we are now confronted with everyone having to do some very short term results. And so therefore you've got that yin and that yang and finding that balance, but creating those durable memories and having a team that is disciplined day in, day out, I think we've lost a little bit of that mojo, to be honest.
- [13:23]
A
So, I mean, Juliet, do you think when you guys look at that data, because I'm always intrigued by this, do you think that we've become more effective as an industry in what we deliver for clients or less, according to the data? When you've looked at all of this
- [13:38]
B
body of work, I think the FE data, if anyone needs cheering and a little bit of Schutzpah, go and have a look at the Effie cases because they show you that there are still brilliant people doing brilliant things. Every day. But I do think there is also the pressures out there in the real world almost kind of drive you to the bottom, to the lowest common denominator. So in a way, I think one of our jobs as Effie is to kind of lift people's heads up a little bit and to see what good looks like and also to see, you know, all the practical hints and tips to make your. Your work that little bit better. Because it's tough, you know, you got someone yelling at you to drive sales rather than invest in brand. What are you going to do?
- [14:23]
D
Fergus? Julia is playing good cop. So you're going to have to allow me to play. To play bad cop.
- [14:29]
A
I like that. I like bad cops.
- [14:32]
D
So I agree there's pockets of excellence and that's what and been. I mean me and Juliet were talking about this yesterday. If you ever need inspiration and going to find those insights and finding out other people have done it. There's so much you can steal from the case. I was. It's silly. And there's people who are absolutely smashing it and moving the industry forward generally. Kind of back to Tracy's point about it being we need to move away from thinking about assets to a disciplined practice where our entire campaign mixes and every day works effectively. I would say there's great data in this book showing that our industry is actually getting slightly less effective. There's data showing that we're chasing more short term objectives. That's very clear. That's not new news. But there's also data that shows that we're getting slightly less emotional and that's not the top cases. But it's like just looking at all advertising generally less emotional. We're using less of the kind of distinctive brand assets that we know work like brand characters and jingles. That's disappearing work is getting slightly less entertaining in general and that's leading to every year campaigns are on average reporting fewer brand effects, which I think is.
- [15:50]
A
And you're talking about over a period of time. Because I would look at that and say that I feel that I'm seeing in the last couple of years the opposite.
- [15:57]
D
Okay, yes, that's very interesting. I'm talking about over the past kind of 10, 12 years which is what this book looks at. And at the very end there's almost like a Nike tick where the brand effects have jumped up. Back in. I think it was like 2025. So you're seeing that service. I'm looking at the 10 years where we've seen a decrease in brand effect in emotional work. And for some reason you can see it in the FE data in 2024 and 2025. You can see things starting to turn around again.
- [16:26]
A
I mean it feels like it's going through that decade of performance marketing, at least the increased emphasis at that time of performance marketing. And maybe it's the realization that there needs to be that blend. It's the James Herman future demand, current demand.
- [16:42]
D
I don't know. I almost think that puts the owner some marketers. I think the reality is we've never had more tools to try and operate with and it's taken us some time to understand what best practice looks like. I still don't understand. I still don't believe people understand how to use creators effectively, for example. And again, you see some great case studies starting to in the past few years in the FE case library showing creators being used as like. I think it was Sarah V with like Michael. Sarah is a really good example, like a social first idea. We're starting to now understand how to use these tools a little better. I think we've always known marketers have never wanted to chase short termism. We've been forced into a corner and we're now working out that we can actually work in this kind of new environment.
- [17:28]
A
Okay, so before we jump into some of the key findings, I want to just make it clear for everybody and for me, you use the term brand effects throughout the report. Briefly, what are brand effects?
- [17:42]
D
That is the reported incremental growth in one of eight of the brand effects, awareness, differentiation, distinctiveness gains, consideration or intent, fame, I. E. People talking about your brand trust or a general growth in brand equity. Because a lot of brand trackers actually just track a general growth in brand equity and then these have to be
- [18:10]
A
statistically significant increases in order to be considered a brand.
- [18:14]
D
What's great about the Fecamp process is that you actually have to attribute the campaign did it not just the market. You know, delivery boomed in Covid so we see customer penetration. Yeah, everyone did. What about your campaign? You know, that's what we're looking for here.
- [18:34]
A
Let's talk about the impacts here and the key findings from the report. What was new and unexpected? Juliet, when you looked at this after the report had been finished, was there something. You were like this, this is new and this is important.
- [18:52]
B
Okay, I'm going to be a bit contrarian because actually now I've had like we launched two, three weeks ago and it's kind of sat with us all a little bit. When I look back and I go, okay, what Are we actually saying here we're working out that creativity drives more results? We're working out that there's a real relationship between the creative idea and the media channels reaching the audience. A lot of it, a lot of it we've known instinctively or to some extent, they've been hunches, they've been beliefs. I think what's really important for me when I look at this book is it takes all of our good instincts and it unpacks them with kind of concrete evidence. And then the next bit is also important. So you're serving up the evidence so you no longer have to kind of just say that this is a belief. And then it gives you some really practical frameworks to go, okay, what do we mean by creativity? And how can you judge a really good creative idea? Or how can you dial up executional aspects? So it's those two things. It's evidence behind our hunches for really brilliant work. And it's about a how to then go off and do it yourself.
- [20:05]
A
Yeah. How about, Tracy, what about your thoughts on what were the highlights for you?
- [20:10]
C
So I think, yeah, building on exactly what Juliet said, I think there was two sort of areas that instinctively we all know exist. And the first one for me is emotion. Like, I think in all our careers, like if you think about it as a consumer, not as a marketeer, you think about the brands you trust, you love, you have a relationship with, you are prepared to pay more for them. So instinctively, that's a margin play, it's a profit play and it makes total sense. But I think what struck me in this data was the strength of the relationship. It was quantified and it's material and I think that's a reason alone to go and take, take a look at this. So I think emotion was one. I think the other thing, again back to Juliet's point, no surprises, but investment. So I think the linkage between brand and sustainable media investment and that brand fluency linked to performance over time. And particular, there's a phrase in this, you know, the scale of the compounding effect. I just thought there we have it, it's in writing and it's got data behind it. So I think they were the two things. I think it was the sheer scale and the data that we now have to say, do you know what? If you do this well, you do it consistently, you're going to have long term profitable benefits from it. And I think that's amazing.
- [21:42]
A
Yeah. Andrew, I was struck by one of the things that Tracy just mentioned. This Idea that. I'm paraphrasing what you said in the report, but it's a simple idea that most campaigns deliver sales, but sales are not enough. Tell us about that.
- [21:59]
D
Yeah, of course, I think it's the
- [22:02]
A
majority because it goes against the belief system that sales is all that we're after and that sales are what justify budgets, et cetera, et cetera.
- [22:13]
D
Yeah, maybe I hang out in different circles, but I think people have kind of clocked onto this at the moment. Like revenue is not enough. I can spend. And it's a tip for if anyone ever gets to get into the. I'm not going to call it horrendous, I'm going to call it joyous experience of judging an effort. What you should do is go and look at how much that campaigner's spec cost and then the revenue. And if the revenue is less than how much you've spent on the campaign, you should have all stayed in bed. I can spend a million in advertising to create a million in sales. That's not the job of effective advertising, as Tracey was just talking about. It's about the compounding effort of profit. We must be creating profitable market share, recruiting new customers and crucially reducing price sensitivity. So I think one of the key gifts in this should be moving the industry on from revenue reporting and that includes roi. ROI is often a revenue metric, but I think the key finding for me in the, in the entire book is actually how when you plan creativity and media together, profit is exponential. Like I don't, I've never had anyone say that to me before. And there's a significant relationship we found in the research where we get to this metric called excess share of creativity, which is essentially looking at how creatively advantaged a campaign is and how much media support it gets. So then if you recognize that you've got creative gold and you go fight for more media support for it, compounding things happen because those two things work in conjunction together to create profit.
- [24:01]
A
Is part of that an indictment of the fact that our industry is separated. Media versus agency, creative agency, or are you thinking of it just simply a client side decision on investment level?
- [24:13]
D
Well, I've gone pretty hard on the whole creative and media and agencies need to get brought back together. I think it's going to be the biggest trend of the next decade. I think you're already seeing that at the moment in some big hole cos that I refuse to mention. But, but I think that is the biggest thing that's happening in the industry and I've had A few people, I think someone was shouting at me on LinkedIn about this going, that's the job of the brand side marketer to connect these two things up. And you need to brief and do the connecting. I think that's offensive. That relegates our agency partners to delivering execution. Of course, our agents are creative and media people need to be thinking and planning together. That can't just be the job of brand side marketers.
- [25:00]
A
In chapter five, a quote, distinctive advertising increases the efficiency of campaign spanned at all spend levels but has a weak impact on profit. Emotion creates the behavior change needed for profit. Talk to me about that.
- [25:21]
D
This is my favorite finding because I, I'm actually seeing Byron Sharp next week in Hungary and I'm gonna, I'm gonna publicly challenge him on it. And you have to be in a
- [25:30]
A
neutral country in order to have a conversation.
- [25:32]
D
Yeah, I've never met the guy. I'm terrified to be honest. Right. It's even our international waters. So I think by the. In Ehrenberg bass, the Aaron McBass Institute, where Byron Sharp researches and where the book How Brands Grow comes from, has been so successful that the industry has sometimes. And you saw this in the Pepsi, Coke, super bowl debate, we've simplified creativity to distinctive brand assets, which is a massive loss. So there's so much more to creativity that actually. Yes, getting noticed and your brand notice is great, but how are we going to change behavior? Is it entertaining? Is it emotional? Is it consistent in our strategy? So what we actually found in the data is distinctiveness is a must if you're not distinctive. Revenue outcomes doesn't scale with media support. So you have to be distinctive. But it has a limited impact on profit alone. When it's distinct and emotional, that's when profit scales with media inputs.
- [26:39]
A
So over time.
- [26:41]
D
Yes, over time. So revenue turns media spend. Sorry. So distinctiveness turns media spend into revenue. Emotion turns revenue into profit, which again is another. I found it so interesting actually researching this because I've learned so much. I've never thought about that concept either. Like having distinctive advertising with enough distinctive brand assets allows your ad to work efficiently and build memories. But if those memories are going to be useful and change behavior, it also needs to be emotional.
- [27:21]
A
So let's talk about, just for one minute, I want to talk about emotional because sometimes I worry that emotion is getting interpreted as one feeling or one type of expression of emotion. Juliet, can you. And then we can go to Andrew and to Tracy. But what do we mean by emotional advertising? I mean, there are varied types of different Emotions and do some work better than others, or what are we suggesting?
- [27:50]
B
I think we're suggesting that engaging with consumers on a level that provokes some kind of feeling is a really powerful thing to do. Whatever that emotion might be, whether it is dependent on your brand and your category, it might be a whole different set of emotions, but it's definitely not about making people cry or making them feel sad or angry necessarily. It's about engaging them on a very human level. That's the way I think of it.
- [28:20]
A
Is it that way, Tracy? Do you think of it as sort of. I agree that it's not just about making people cry. I love the idea of it's about making people feel something, but I'm not so sure that it's not about making people sad. That's an emotion. It's a valid emotion.
- [28:37]
C
It's a very valid emotion, but it is only one. So for me, I think about it a little bit like brand fluency. You have to be able to connect into your brand on the emotional level that is relevant to the category or a differentiated or distinct to the category, as well as linking to your brand heritage. And as it's so beautifully put consistently over time. So I think that's how I view it. It's. You need to open your emotional connection up. And that could be. Again, that comes in so many different forms that can come verbally through music, through vision. I mean, it's. It's a very. I mean, we're human at the end of the day. This is about storytelling, and it's. And it's complex.
- [29:24]
D
This is part of the reason we wanted to do this, because I agree, everyone uses the word emotion to beat each other over the head. Like, you know, this is what we should all march along to. We actually measured the emotional intensity to all the work as well. So that's just any emotion, be it sadness, fear, just anything that's not dull. And we found that not being dull is brilliant. So that, first of all, any emotion is better than no emotion. That's clear emotion in that sense. And emotional intensity orientates attention and crucially builds more memory structures. If you're in a heightened emotional state, you build more memory structures. That's, like, proven in academia. And then what we did find when we looked at a certain subset of campaigns, those that ran over two years, those that were emotions that left people feeling more positively valianced, I. E. The wide spectrum of things that make people feel great. Surprise, schadenfreude, joy, bliss, pride, the whole specter of positive Emotion, they influenced profit harder in the longer term campaigns.
- [30:35]
A
I was going through the report and I highlighted a couple of things. In chapter seven, you talk about creative quality alone explains 24.2% of recorded business results. Where's the other 75?
- [30:50]
D
Great.
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A
Or am I misinterpreting that?
- [30:52]
D
No, no, no, no, no. Exactly. So that is at the end, in chapter seven, we try and show that if you practice effectiveness as a business, advertising is an obvious choice for all brands and it leads to business results. And it's not random, because often people just think it's like going to the casino, which is dangerous for our industry. So we build this regression model to show that what inputs actually predict the outputs of business results? So the first step of that is throwing the creative inputs in those four things. From the creativity stack, emotion, distinctiveness, showmanship, and consistency. And with those alone, without media involved, you can explain about a quarter of business results. What does that mean? I mean, that's a statistical R squared. So what does that technically mean is that the other 75 sit elsewhere. And the clue comes from the next step in that model, which is when you add in a the media support and the interaction with creativity and media, you explain 60.1% of business outcomes. Where does the other 40% sit? Product differentiation, physical availability, price, the weather, what. Everything that planning needs to account for. But what I love is that creativity and media advertising explains 60% of that stuff. Like, if you like creative quality and the size of investment that you manage to get your business to put behind determines how your business grows.
- [32:41]
A
There's a lot to digest in the book, and I think what it does, to the point that Juliet brought up earlier, it does sort of weave together and fill some of these gaps that I think have created sort of resistance within the market. It does remind us of what those of us who have been in the industry for a while have long known. So I noticed a lot of people were going to read this and go, of course. But I think the problem that we need to focus on is the fact that there's an awful lot of people who don't understand that generationally, there are new marketers, new CEOs, new C suite, people who don't have that understanding. And they are relative. They're not new to the industry, but they've come up differently. So this idea is important to reiterate. So for those who are skeptical, just sort of check yourself. It's important to realize that everybody isn't necessarily getting it. If they were, we wouldn't have 65% of pretty boring, dull advertising. So let me wrap up here by asking each of you, what are the behaviors, the attitudes that you want to see or you think should change as a result of this report? What do you want to see happen? Juliet
- [34:00]
B
I think of this in two ways. I think of it because, I mean, you're right. Making the business case for marketing. Overall, we've not done a bad job. There is a lot of evidence there. But equally, I think we need to check ourselves a little bit, to use your phrase, which is if we're saying creativity doesn't wear out, it wears in. Even though we've only had good evidence for however many years, I think there are still lots of C suites and lots of CFOs who really need to reframe marketing as an investment rather than a kind of a cost center. So I like to think that if you are a CMO who is in the position where maybe that is what your board is thinking, you can walk into that C suite with your shoulders back and your chin up with some really good stats and some really good evidence and some cases that bring, you know, that bring it up. So I think of kind of, I think I would like to see that as a behavior change. And then I think for marketers who maybe are earlier out in their career, I would like them to feel a little bit more armed up and a little bit more tooled up so that they kind of have a sense of how to make effectiveness happen in the real world because they've got a couple of, you know, just some of the frameworks that they can flick through in their minds. I like to think of that it's going to help them just on a day to day at their desk be a little bit better in the here and now because they got some tools to refer back to.
- [35:27]
A
This is like a one stop shop where you can literally get the business case made within these 100 pages. And I can't tell you how frustrating it is for so many strategists and, and creatives and clients when they have to go to the agency and the agency says, well, there's not enough spend behind those objectives. And they just say, well, that's all that we have, that's all the money we have. We have to do it. There needs to be something that you can turn around and say, hey listen, it's not possible, it's not realistic. Here's the case, let me help you make an upward case to your boss, et cetera. And I know because there's an awful Lot of. There's an awful lot of seasoned marketers who know this. But just like we produce 65% of dull work. I almost think about this is the book for the 65%.
- [36:22]
B
Yeah. I think you're right. I think you can be sure of one thing which is the world doesn't need a lot of new effectiveness theories. We've got enough. We kind of know the theories and we know the fundamentals. So let's double down and unpack them properly. I think there's too much debate about effectiveness theory. I think it's like how do you leverage it? How do you make it happen? Is a much more interesting thing to look at.
- [36:47]
D
I think that's the key behavior change I'd like to see. I'm a simple northern man. When I worked.
- [36:56]
A
Yeah, sure you are. Sure you are.
- [36:58]
D
Please let me, Please let me get away with it.
- [37:00]
B
Define simple.
- [37:02]
D
A little bit longer. When I work.
- [37:05]
A
You went through a metamorphosis apparently.
- [37:07]
D
When I went. When I worked on Johnny Walker, I worked on Johnny Black and Red not Blue. I did the, the, the, the Everyday Whiskey and I. You know there's so much legendary thinking in our industry and I think what this book does is bring a lot of it together into one world view of marketing. And you have to have a worldview of marketing to operate in it in a practical way. And I'm not really interested in superfluous ideas that we can throw at each other. I really just think that having a practical way of thinking and frameworks to just do our job a little bit better. We talked about the creativity stack. That's not the only four things that creativity leads to. But it's a way of you looking at your campaign and going, why didn't this work? It's emotional, it's distinctive, it's entertaining. Oh, because it's not like anything we've ever made before. It's not consistent. It's a practical way to actually get advertising back to doing what it needs to do. Because I genuinely believe we do a noble job. I'm about to expose myself as a card carrying capitalist. But advertising churns our economy. It allows US to sell 25 PE cans of cola for 2 pound cans of coca Cola. It's a very important thing for our world and I think doing that every day with practical frameworks is something that should excite those people that work in this industry.
- [38:39]
A
Yeah. And it's impossible for us to do the book justice in a one hour conversation. But I hope what we've been able to do is to intrigue people enough where they'll go and get it. You can get a I'm going to direct people to effie.org if you scroll down on the homepage of effie.org, you'll see a link to the Creative Dividend. The book is free, so you can download it right there, effie.org and you know, it's an important book and I hope everybody will check it out. Is there anything we missed that you guys want to touch on?
- [39:12]
D
Just thanking the probably 50 to 100 people that touch this thing right through both our organizations over three years.
- [39:21]
C
It was a journey.
- [39:22]
D
Yeah, there's a lot of of people and like even people who aren't at FE and System One actually input into into the thinking and advised along the way is insane. And the fact that FE and System 1, we work at organizations that want to give this out for free is insane. So just thanking anyone that helped along the way because you know, even if it was like three years ago, it's been a long, hard slog. But I think as Tracy, you've said, hopefully this becomes a piece of literature that people will sit with for the next few years and really, and really it really helps.
- [39:54]
A
Well, hopefully what will happen is that as a result of this report, a lot more people will actually go home with one of these gold Effies. Again, I am showing it on screen. For those not watching it, it's Tracy Alford, Chief Executive Officer of Effie Worldwide. Juliet Hagarth is Chief Marketing Officer out of London. And Andrew Tyndall is SVP Global Partnerships of System One. He is out of his attic in London and it was great to have all three of you here again. Fe.org if you want to download for free the Creative Dividend. Thank you both. Thank you all.
- [40:31]
C
Thank you, thank you.
- [40:33]
A
And we will see everyone on the next episode.