B (5:18)

Well, we'll actually get into this when we talk about the strategy. But because we'd taken that decision to treat it as a short film rather than an ad, we therefore didn't make any cut downs because you don't want to give away a shortened version of the full story. You want to drive people to Watch the full thing. So the only things we made were kind of teaser like trailers, as if it was a movie trailer. What we did not do is a shortened version of the whole story. So the length of it does make it quite hard to run to broadcast.

A (5:51)

It doesn't feel like four minutes. It goes by really quickly. And some spots that are four minute or short films, you feel it, you feel the second. But this one was so well crafted that it seems to just, it seems to just come and go really quickly. Let's lay some groundwork here. So for those who don't know, Adam and Eve, DDB for years was the agency of record for John Lewis. They did all of the brilliant John Lewis spots, many of which we played at our live show event last week. And so many of them are just so beautiful. And they no longer have that business which created, I suppose Kathryn, the opportunity for this relationship. How did it get started with Disney?

B (6:37)

Yeah, that's right. So we no longer had the John Lewis contract since the year before last. And that meant there was kind of a vacancy for the big emotional punch Christmas film to be written. And Disney came knocking at the door and said they loved all the John Lewis work from over the past 14, 15 years and they were interested in what we could do to help them with their holiday Christmas spot. And they had an idea already and they actually asked us our advice on how to improve their existing concept. And we went back with a suggestion of a whole load of new concepts as well that we could use to help Disney capture the magical Christmas in a beautiful story. And they just fell in love with one of these concepts, which was the boy and the octopus. And so all the way through they were like, we love your guys style and your storytelling, please just do one for us. And that was the one.

A (7:39)

And so you did not do their concept. It was one that you guys, you guys created yourselves.

B (7:45)

That's right, yeah.

A (7:46)

So when you say that Disney came knocking on the door, you guys are in London, who came knocking?

B (7:53)

I guess we have the pleasure of the virtual knocking these days.

A (7:59)

Yeah, I didn't mean that came physically knocking on the door. But was it, was it LA, NY? I mean, where did it start? LA came. So it was.

B (8:07)

They're based in la, in California, at the actual Disney hq. But they were talking to a number of different agencies as well that they were interested to see what recommendations a few different shops could come up with. But once we got into that conversation with them, they kind of agreed to just work with us after they really liked the concepts we brought them.

A (8:31)

So my understanding is, from a separate conversation I've had, I've heard that you guys were asked to pitch against somebody, against other agencies, but managed to not be put in that position and manage to just begin a direct relationship. Is that how you remember it or were you involved in any of that?

B (8:52)

I'll caveat that I came involved just after this happened. But the folklore is exactly that. They asked us to pitch against other agencies and we said along the lines of, give us two weeks to beat what you've got on the table and if we do, don't go to any other agencies. And that was exactly what happened.

A (9:10)

I love that. I mean, I shared that with our group in Chicago when we were live this two weeks ago for the holiday show. I shared that you guys were asked to pitch and didn't do it. And the entire room erupted. There was like 300 people in that room. And everybody erupted with applause. Because that's the sort of confidence we need to have as an industry. And we don't have enough of the confidence to say, not really for us. Why don't we do it this way? Rather than just sort of automatically fall down and agree to do exactly what's asked, even though what's asked isn't the right thing to do. So everybody in that room applauded, and I applaud you guys too, and Disney for doing the right thing there. When you know a partner is brilliant, you don't need to shop it. So let's get over that, for starters. So what was the ask? So Disney does a spot every year and this was. I don't even remember them doing spots in the past, but this one I will never forget. Why? Is this a frequent thing for them? Or was this something new that they wanted a different style or what?

B (10:16)

Yeah, they do a holiday commercial every year. It's usually about 90 seconds. They. With cut downs. They. In the last year was a bit different. It was something around the song Wish Upon a Star and they showed children in lots of different countries singing the song versus of the song. And before that, they'd had three years of an animated family and a kind of continuation of their extended family Christmas traditions. And it was all animated. But the only way I can describe it is they felt a bit like ads and they wanted something that felt more like a story and more sort of cinematic.

A (10:58)

You think or.

B (10:58)

Yeah, it's a really funny position because Disney, renowned world over as one of the best, if not the best storytellers of all time. So to be then asked to help them write a better story. We had immediate imposter syndrome, of course, but they wanted something different. And they really had been impressed by work that we'd done previously, Adam and Eve. So they asked us, they said, we've got a theme. We want the story to be about an act of kindness sparking joy. So that was kind of the brief.

A (11:35)

An act of kindness sparking joy.

B (11:39)

Yeah, they had a line which was, a little kindness can spark a lot of joy.

A (11:46)

A little kindness can spark a lot of joy.

B (11:50)

Their objective was to deepen and strengthen the connection between the Disney brand and the holiday period. There's a lot of overlap between Christmas time and Disney because if you think about it, they're both times to kind of come together with family and feel that almost childhood feelings of rediscovering your inner child. That's something that happens at Christmas time, and it's something that's associated with Disney also. Things like kindness and those types of values are something we think about in generosity, both in relation to Christmas and in relation to Disney. And also the magic, kind of the magic of the season and the magic of Disney DNA. And they wanted to improve how much Disney is associated with that time of year to strengthen their brand affinity generally and to have more emotional list, they called it in the minds of consumers, especially families, because it's a very family time of year, but really everyone. And they wanted, therefore, a piece of storytelling that would work harder to undeniably kind of pin the Disney flag to the mast of the holiday period.

A (13:00)

So was there a sense that relationship, that anchor with the holidays had been weakening? And did they have a sense of why they might have felt it was weakening?

B (13:12)

I didn't get a sense of what was wrong with what had been going on in recent years. I think they just thought they'd been all produced internally, and so they thought maybe it's time to ask some external kind of expert help on this.

A (13:27)

So just to go back, before we move into the strategy side of things, tell us a little bit about the dynamic of them bringing an idea to you guys, because I can imagine that may have come from internal people. And then how do you treat that as an agency when you're being asked, in essence, to change what they've done? I mean, that word improve generally says, don't mess with it too much, but just improve it a little. Was the ask that alone or was it and if you think you have other ideas, bring them too?

B (14:05)

I believe they were open to seeing other ideas, but possibly because we Proposed, you know, would you be open to seeing other ideas as well as our suggestions to your script? And the way that we had that conversation with them about maybe the answer could lie in a different story was we actually used. Cause like I mentioned, who goes to Disney and tells them, we know more than you about storytelling, but you just can't do that. So we used the theory of. From the science of storytelling. I don't know if you're familiar with the book. And it's a theory of how our brains are hardwired to take in information through stories. And we really gravitate towards well told stories. And there's a certain arc that stories should follow. And it starts out with your main character having a want or a need going out to try and find that, encountering some kind of obstacle or challenge, there's jeopardy there. It's all things start to seem like they're going wrong. And then some kind of pivotal action or discovery turns the fortunes around and leads then on an upwards trajectory again. So they're the four really simple beats. And that's if you. I'm. You can't see me, but I'm shaping out like a curved line with my finger in the air of a graph that goes kind of up, then down and then up higher at the end. And we showed them that on a chart and said, this is the most simply, this is the structure of a story. And the one we're discussing at the moment is quite complex and stories do end up being very complex. And we said, we want to strip back to its essence and we're keeping the essence of your story, but we're testing out that essence in different settings and characters and things like that. So it's like we've retained the very essence of what you brought us, but we're just dressing it up in a different way. And that was how we first had the conversation about bringing new concepts.

A (16:18)

I know that all of the strategists and planners listening to this are going to be going, Fergus, ask what the original story was that Disney put in front of us. Can you share a skeletal sense of what that story was about, the one that they originally put down?

B (16:34)

So the first concept was around a story that centered on a kind of grumpy main character who encountered a younger character who was very vibrant and energetic. And her wisdom and warmth gradually thawed out the cold, icy kind of grumpiness.

A (16:59)

Wow, that sounds like Apple's fuzzy feelings this past year. That's what this was about too. Yeah. Oh, I get that.

B (17:07)

And hey, there's only so many actual story arcs in existence and all that stuff. So when you break something down to such basic parts, I think stories can often sound like each other.

A (17:18)

What is it that's special about a piece of Disney storytelling that makes it uniquely Disney?

B (17:24)

Yeah, it's a great question. And it's taken us a while to figure it out, and we're still getting there. It's still a process because even when we talk to the clients, they have such an instinctive answer that it's hard to sometimes put into words. But a few things we know for sure. One is a feeling, and that's the feeling of wonder. It's really important. And you think of any Disney movie, there's a sense of wonderful with either the character's discovery or that you feel yourself in being told the story. So that's something quite intangible to describe, but important to convey. So sense of wonder was one. There's certainly a need to have a human relatable protagonist and dream or desire that's being chased during the story. So it doesn't have to be a human character. For example, it could be an octopus. But the thing that they're seeking needs to be relatable for people so that you're rooting for that person straight away. And something else that seems inherent in every Disney property when you look back, is a relationship growing between two characters, whether they're people or non human or what have you. Nobody does it all on their own. Every hero needs some help. So that's where the act of kindness came in. So there was wonder, there was humanity, and there was kindness and following a dream.

A (18:57)

Well, that's wonderful. That's really nicely said, which points to the thing that I mentioned at the show. When we did the show live, when I watched this first time, I didn't know that you guys were behind it, because when I think of Disney, I didn't think of Adam and Eve. But as I watched this and I began to sort of get that, exactly what you talked about here, the sense of the relationship going between two characters, this sort of sense of wonder, it felt very John Lewis, because when I heard that you guys were doing it, I immediately felt. I immediately thought of Monty the Penguin and the story arc in Monty the Penguin, and so many of what I think are the brilliant John Lewis spots. It's that idea that Sam understood the boy Sam, which is the boy character in Monty the Penguin, Sam and Monty. Sam, over time, begins to understand what Monty needs, and then ultimately he gives it to Monty. It Seems like the same story arc here where the boy, they meet, they build a relationship over time. Then there's a recognition that there's something missing in what the octopus needs or wants. And then the boy helps him get it. Do you see those similarities?

B (20:27)

Yes, I see the similarity. And there's a reason for those parallels that you've pointed out. And that's because the things you're trying to achieve of tugging on people's heartstrings and making them really feel these big emotions and reconnect with their inner child and things like that, the shortcuts to doing those include a cute kid, main character. They include that child having a special relationship with something else that's kind of cute. And as you mentioned, the relationship growing. It's a. We never want to paint it as a formula because if you write to a formula, it becomes feels formulaic and kind of dull.

A (21:09)

It doesn't make it feel the same. It's just a skeletal structure. Right. And then you craft a beautiful set of characters and situations and story to sort of fit the arc or the arc or to respect the need to be somewhat arc like.

B (21:28)

It's true. That and a kind of question of semantics. Yes, it's true. There's a certain amount of formula to that, to that type of story. But what was really important for us is that when I said I didn't want it to feel formulaic, I mean, a predictable resolution to that journey.

A (21:47)

Yes.

B (21:48)

Especially because we're. We see every creative wants to have a go at writing the Disney story. Right. So we receive many, many, many submissions, hundreds of script ideas. And a trap that's often often fallen into is building this somewhat recognisable setup of, for the sake of argument, a child and a character. And then the resolution to it feels expected. And that's how it's not done enough. Because we need the resolution to be unexpected, something that you couldn't have seen coming. How they choose to solve that problem of following the dream that one of the characters has. And that's where we find the magic.

A (22:33)

Yeah. And that's the way. That's what has been one of the most joyful parts of many of the John Lewis spots. I mean, you look at Monty, the clothes, and what the clothes reveals about what Monty actually was is magical. And it's the same with the long wait when you discover who that gift was really for. I mean, that is just heartwarming. It's extraordinary. And it is that it subverts what your expectation is in a beautifully rewarding way.

B (23:03)

Yes, exactly. It's that twist. It's. You're taken on a journey and then you're given the delight of a surprise at the end. And I think what we had with Disney was the ability to play with some magic there as well. Because in both of those John Lewis examples, it's a. You've subverted the viewers. Either what they assumed assumptions, or you reveal that you were showing something in. In Monty, in the kid's imagination, really, and showed what the reality was.

A (23:36)

Couple of things before we play the spot, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on number one. I loved the sushi scene. Where did that. Was that in the original script or did that just happen organically? Cause it is one of those wonderful, unexpected moments.

B (23:56)

Great question. And we also love Adam and Eve not making the script too sickly sweet and saccharine. So when the idea for that came about, we loved the mischievousness of it, the playfulness of it. That idea actually came from the director, Taika Waititi. So it was not a scene in the original script, but Taika suggested including it. And everyone just went, yeah, that's great.

A (24:22)

Yeah, that's really wonderful. For those who haven't seen it or for those. Because the reason I bring this up is because I always find when strategists or creatives explain the spot, I end up realizing that I didn't even get that aspect of it, or hearing. Or hearing that aspect of it or hearing it articulated in that way makes it even better. So can you explain what the spot is in terms of? What's the intention of each part of the spot?

B (24:55)

This spot is. It tells the story of a little boy who, when he's on holiday on vacation with his family, meets a curious octopus. And the octopus, we don't realize it at the beginning, but it has a desire, a dream, to see more of the world. And the first hint you get of that is you start to hear the song Part of youf World from the Little Mermaid instrumental version of that. And the octopus clings to the boy's head and won't be. However hard anyone tries to pull him off, he's sticking there. So the boy at first is quite horrified, embarrassed, and not a fan of having an octopus stuck to his head. So he goes home from his holiday and gradually he starts to open up towards this creature stuck on his head, and they become friends. So he's showing the octopus all of his things, his toys and his bedroom and then his hometown. And he's. The octopus wants to see more. He's so curious. He's so excited. And actually, the original name of this spot was Blub Blub, which is the noise that octopus makes. And it says Blub blub in excitement as it learns more about the world. And the boy takes it into the town and shows it all the Christmas sights and the lights and the Christmas tree and everything like that. It's just so delighted by all the wonder around it. And every time it sees and experiences for the first time, the big wide world is just hungry for more and more. So they go home, and eventually the octopus is able to show the boy, I want to see the whole world like I've seen your town. I want more. And the way it signals that to the boy is they're watching the Santa Claus movie on tv and the octopus points to the boy. There's when Santa is flying on his sleigh around the world. Look how excited I am at the thought of that. So they make a plan together to try and help let the octopus go with Santa on the sleigh around the world and see so much more than what he's already seen. And this is when, in the act of kindness from the boy to help the octopus go and realize his dream of seeing the whole world has to say goodbye to his friend. And it's a very deeply heartfelt and mature, emotionally mature for a young child moment to release his friend, the octopus, who has been inseparable from him ever since they met onto the Christmas tree to hide, ready for when Santa comes down the chimney. And the final scene is. We learn that the octopus has followed through the plan and gone off with Santa.

A (27:57)

We can travel all around the world. How can one man in one night visit all the children of the world? This spot, this film is the beginning of a relationship. What's the scope of the relationship going forward? Are you working on anything now that we can expect to see this coming year?

B (29:12)

Yes, we're actually working on the Disney Christmas 2025 film already.

A (29:18)

That is crazy. I mean, come on. That is nuts.

B (29:23)

Well, they wanted to start sooner this time round because it would have been great if we could, with the octopus, have the time to make merch and things like that and to do some kind of activations in the Disney theme parks. But we just didn't have time. Think of how big the organization is. It takes too long to organize stuff like that. So we've purposefully started much sooner this year so that we have the chance to get more involved across the Disney ecosystem and feel like a bigger, bigger story.

A (29:54)

So when you're starting now. Are you starting with ideas now or is it just in the early conversation stage?

B (30:00)

Oh, yeah, we're actually. What is it? It's the middle of December and we're on the fourth or fifth round of Creative stories already.

A (30:12)

Oh, man, I tell you, you must get burned out. Looking at the idea by February, I'd be like, okay, I'm done with this thing. We haven't even shot it yet, but, damn, I'm sick of seeing this script.

B (30:21)

Well, that's the funny thing with the Boy and Octopus, because we'd all been so involved for so long that we suddenly got nervous. Does it have the emotional impact it did when we first saw the idea?

A (30:32)

Yeah, yeah. It starts to get super practical. Way too familiar. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, again, one of the other things I loved about it, and I love about all of the John Lewis spots that I love, is the use of music. And it's very cinematic. It's very Disney like, it's very orchestral. But the use of piano and strings, just whatever impact that has on us as human beings is extraordinary. It strikes me right away that it can take a shitty concept and make it beautiful. But here you've got a magic concept and you have this magical layer of music which is so critical.

B (31:13)

Yeah, well, we have the amazing of with Disney, their whole library of incredible music. So, as I said, it's the Little Mermaid is the film that this track comes from. And with our conversations for Christmas next year, we're already at the very beginning of discussions having to think of what would be the track, because the track's so powerful. And when you even look at the YouTube comments, for example, under the boy and the Octopus, so many people are saying, wow, the soundtrack is so perfect. It so makes it.

A (31:44)

Well, this has been an absolute joy, Katherine, for sharing this all with us. You are also. You've also been recently involved in the work for the Entertainer Toy Shop, which is a retailer in the uk, and many people may have seen that campaign. I'd love to do another separate episode on that. Maybe we can do that in January. But there's a great story behind that, and I'm so glad to have you be a part of this show, Nash, as this is your debut. And it was wonderful to hear you talk about this work and excited to hear what happens next year with Disney. It is Catherine Willoughby. She is strategy director at Adam and Eve DDB in London. Thank you, Katherine, for being here.

B (32:31)

Thank you very much for having me.

A (32:33)

And we will see everybody on the next episode.