On the Media - Episode Summary: "Brooke and Brian Lehrer Interview Each Other"

Release Date: December 1, 2022
Hosts: Brooke Gladstone & Brian Lehrer
Produced by: WNYC Studios

In this engaging episode of the award-winning "On the Media" podcast, host Brooke Gladstone sits down with her esteemed colleague Brian Lehrer for a reciprocal interview originally featured in Interview Magazine. This conversation delves into their professional journeys, reflections on media evolution, the impact of technology on journalism, and the dynamics of building community through media platforms.

1. Professional Beginnings and Career Trajectories

Brooke Gladstone's Journey: Brooke Gladstone begins by recounting her early career at NPR, where she served as the first-ever full-time media correspondent. Prior to this role, she spent significant time as an editor and later as NPR’s Moscow correspondent during the mid-1990s.

"Prior to that I had been an editor for most of my time at NPR and then for three years the Moscow correspondent." [02:06]

Her tenure coincided with a pivotal period in media history characterized by the proliferation of cable services and the rise of online and digital media. Brooke highlights the emergence of platforms like Matt Drudge’s website, which began altering the landscape of information dissemination.

"We also had the rise of online media, digital media. Matt Drudge was a huge thing." [02:30]

Brian Lehrer's Path: Brian Lehrer shares his background rooted in Queens, New York, where a rich exposure to radio shaped his career aspirations. After college, he landed his dream job hosting an FM rock show in Albany. Unexpectedly, he expanded his role to include a weekend call-in show, which revealed the profound impact of radio as a community-building tool.

"I felt like I was a bystander, but it was probably more formative than I ever thought about at the time." [06:16]

This experience, particularly a critical moment when he assisted in saving a listener's life, underscored the relational and communal potential of radio.

"It also may have been how you found out what the power of radio can be. Potentially you were instrumental in saving a life." [06:04]

2. Evolution of Media and the Internet's Role

Both hosts reflect on the transformative impact of the internet on media. Brooke emphasizes how media criticism was minimal before the web era due to limited platforms for widespread observation and discourse.

"There wasn't a lot of journalism criticism. I don't think they felt compelled to because there weren't so many people outside with eyes on them." [03:10]

Brian draws parallels between the early utopian expectations of the internet and the current polarized digital landscape. He reminisces about believing in the internet's potential to democratize information and build inclusive communities, only to witness its role in deepening societal divisions.

"I thought it was going to bring people together, it was going to build community... Now we know how polarizing the contemporary digital world has actually been." [10:13]

Brooke concurs, discussing the dual nature of vast media availability. While it ranges from exemplary to dismal, the algorithms behind social media platforms often exploit human emotions like fear and anger to drive engagement, inadvertently fostering divisiveness.

"It is profitable for these companies... to create engagement. And anger is a great tool to create engagement." [12:14]

3. The Trouble with Reality: Exploring Moral Panic

Brooke delves into her book, "The Trouble with Reality," which examines the phenomenon of moral panic in contemporary society. She explains that following President Trump's election, she was commissioned to explore why such political shifts create widespread dissonance and how individuals construct and maintain their personal realities amidst such upheavals.

"It's an exploration of how we each construct our individual realities and how hard we work to maintain their integrity." [08:08]

Brian connects this exploration to broader media interactions, pondering how powerful algorithms and media manipulations challenge our perception of reality and personal truths.

"If we're being so manipulated by these ultra powerful algorithms, what do we do with that knowledge?" [13:47]

Brooke responds by advocating for journalistic integrity grounded in fairness and accuracy, rather than the elusive concept of objectivity, which she argues is unattainable due to inherent human biases.

"Fairness and accuracy is within all of our grasps. And we can do that as producers of news, and we can also do that as consumers of news." [14:03]

4. Objectivity vs. Fairness in Journalism

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the distinction between objectivity and fairness. Brian defends the journalistic ideal of objectivity as a striving for a comprehensive and unbiased portrayal of reality.

"We're trying to paint a full, complex picture of reality for our audiences. So we're trying to the best of our ability to be objective." [15:29]

Brooke counters by redefining her stance, emphasizing that true objectivity—approaching every story without preconceived judgments—is impossible for humans. Instead, she champions "fairness," where journalists acknowledge their biases but commit to unbiased reporting through accuracy and fairness.

"Objectivity means that you go to everything with the blank mind... We all make mistakes occasionally. You make very few and usually correct them immediately." [16:00]

Brian concurs, endorsing Brooke's perspective while reiterating the importance of humility and the continuous effort to present unbiased information.

5. Building and Sustaining Community Through Media

Transitioning to a discussion about community-building, Brooke highlights the unique role of the Brian Lehrer Show in fostering an informed and engaged community, especially during election cycles. She praises Brian for steering conversations towards substantive issues beyond sensationalist narratives.

"You don't just give them a voice, you give them important things to talk about." [17:05]

Brian elaborates on their initiative "30 Issues in 30 Days," which was designed to focus on a different issue each day leading up to elections, thereby providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of various important topics rather than succumbing to the hype of "red wave" narratives.

"30 issues in 30 days was born during the 2004 presidential election cycle." [18:06]

Brooke reflects on the pitfalls of media-driven polling and prognostication, which often distort the public's perception of political landscapes.

"It is the polls and the prognostication that fuels every election cycle and, of course, proved to be disastrous this time around." [19:31]

6. Media, Fear, and Catharsis Through Storytelling

The conversation shifts to how media and storytelling tap into human emotions, particularly fear. Brooke discusses an episode of "On the Media" that examined Fox News' intensified coverage of crime, linking it to electoral strategies that exploit public fear to influence political outcomes.

"They were doing this as an election strategy to help the Republicans win, because ginning up fear of crime was proving an effective strategy in some cases." [20:03]

Drawing a parallel to horror movies, Brooke explains her personal affinity for the genre as a means of safely experiencing and processing fear.

"I really crave the catharsis you can get by being scared in a safe place like a movie seat or on your living room couch." [21:03]

Brian humorously likens horror films to controlled doses of fear, akin to vaccines, providing a safe environment to confront and release fear.

"It's almost like a COVID vaccine, or almost any kind of vaccine for. For the potential illness in question." [21:39]

Brooke adds depth by referencing a segment on black horror films, where a filmmaker utilized horror tropes to help process traumatic historical experiences, demonstrating the genre’s potential for communal healing.

"It's so much easier to process when we see it this way than when it's a continuous pressure, a formless fear invading your life and your unconscious." [21:53]

7. Mutual Appreciation and Final Thoughts

As the interview concludes, both Brooke and Brian express mutual admiration for each other's work and contributions to media and community building. Brooke commends Brian for nurturing a smart and informed listener base, while Brian praises Brooke for her deep investigative work and the tangible impacts it has had, such as influencing testimonies in significant legal cases.

"Keep pulling back the curtain on our media and ourselves and we are so lucky to have you as host and Managing editor of OTM and not me." [23:01]

Brooke reciprocates by highlighting the resilience and growth of the Brian Lehrer Show community, emphasizing its role in fostering unity despite external challenges.

"Please keep building community and mending the community that is New York and all the listeners beyond New York." [23:39]

Conclusion

This episode serves as a profound exploration of the intertwined paths of two influential media figures, emphasizing the evolving challenges and responsibilities of journalism in the digital age. Brooke Gladstone and Brian Lehrer provide valuable insights into maintaining journalistic integrity, leveraging media for community building, and navigating the complex emotional landscapes shaped by contemporary media narratives. Their conversation underscores the essential role of thoughtful, fair, and accurate journalism in fostering informed and resilient communities.

Notable Quotes:

• "It's impossible to achieve [objectivity]; fairness and accuracy is within all of our grasps." – Brooke Gladstone [14:03]

• "You don't just give them a voice, you give them important things to talk about." – Brooke Gladstone [17:05]

• "Anger is a great tool to create engagement." – Brooke Gladstone [12:14]

• "It's almost like a COVID vaccine, or almost any kind of vaccine for. For the potential illness in question." – Brian Lehrer [21:39]

For a deeper dive into this conversation, you can read the full interview titled "Brian Lehrer Points the mic at Brooke Gladstone" on Interview Magazine's website.