Influencers Usher In A New Era For #MeToo

Summary

On the Media (WNYC Studios)

Episode: Influencers Usher In A New Era For #MeToo

Date: April 18, 2026

Host: Brooke Gladstone
Guests: Melanie Mason (POLITICO California bureau chief), Ivan Nagy (Hungarian political journalist, Columbia Journalism Review Fellow)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of On the Media examines the shifting landscape of political accountability and media influence, focusing on two seismic stories:

1. The rapid downfall of U.S. Congressman and California gubernatorial candidate Eric Swalwell amid sexual misconduct allegations amplified by social media influencers, revealing a new dynamic in the #MeToo movement.
2. The stunning electoral defeat of Hungary’s Viktor Orban after 16 years in power—a change fueled in part by independent media resilience, whistleblower revelations, and public disillusionment.

Through in-depth interviews and analysis, host Brooke Gladstone and her guests explore how media ecosystems—ranging from TikTok influencers in California to upstart YouTube channels in Budapest—reshaped the prospects for accountability, truth-telling, and democracy.

---

Part 1: U.S. Politics & the New #MeToo Era

The Eric Swalwell Scandal: Timeline & Key Players

[02:05–05:31]

• Background:

  • Two weeks before the episode aired, Eric Swalwell—democratic Congressman and top California governor candidate—faced cascading sexual assault allegations, initially denied by Swalwell and his campaign.

• Catalysts:

  • The story was accelerated by Arielle Fodor (aka “Mrs. Frazzled,” education-focused influencer with 1.4M TikTok, 760k Instagram followers) after she received warnings about Swalwell following a positive Instagram post about him.
  • Melanie Mason (POLITICO) describes how Fodor began to investigate when multiple contacts surfaced similar allegations. Fodor’s influencer status gave her unique access to staffers and insiders.

    "She has the phone numbers of all of these staffers and all of these campaign operatives, and quite frankly, all of these lawmakers. I mean, I think us reporters would actually be quite jealous."
    – Melanie Mason [04:56]

• Whisper Networks & Amplification:

  • Fodor’s private communications with staffers confirm the rumors (“That’s just the way it is” [05:29]), revealing a culture of resignation among Washington insiders regarding sexual misconduct.

The Role of Influencers

[05:57–10:57]

• Mike Trujillo, a democratic strategist with political motives, brings rumors public in a viral post warning others not to endorse Swalwell.

• Consequences of the mounting rumors:

  • Major endorsers begin privately confronting Swalwell. His emphatic denials buy him temporary credibility.
  • Even his own senior staff are convinced—until direct media contact unearths incriminating details, leading to their mass resignation:

    "[Staffer]: 'The dude deserves an effin' academy award for liar of the year.'"
    – Quoted by Brooke Gladstone [08:39]

• Fodor’s Escalation:

  • Fodor’s cryptic post draws direct outreach from Swalwell’s campaign manager, which Fodor perceives as a veiled threat—not intimidation, but enough to trigger her to name Swalwell directly.

    "She started naming Eric Swalwell by name in her posts. As soon as she starts saying his name, she started getting more messages..."
    – Melanie Mason [09:58]

  • The parasocial dynamic between influencers and followers becomes a conduit for survivor stories, acting as a “clearinghouse” for those unwilling to approach journalists directly.

Hand-Off to Traditional Media & Consequences

[11:09–14:29]

• Another influencer, Cheyenne Hunt (former congressional candidate), is activated by a friend’s first-hand harassment account.

• Fodor and Hunt collaborate, gathering testimonies, seeking pro bono legal support, and ultimately providing vetted stories to CNN (journalist Alison Gordon) for publication—in pursuit of credibility and impact:

  "In order to have the most credibility… it would be important to have the imprimatur of a known news organization."
  – Melanie Mason [12:50]

• The Fallout:

  • Within 11 days of Hunt’s involvement, major outlets run the story, Swalwell’s campaign collapses, he resigns from Congress, and a criminal investigation begins.

    “It was just this cathartic moment of, ‘Oh my god, this is finally out there.’”
    – Melanie Mason [14:05]

The New #MeToo Dynamic

[14:29–19:13]

• Melanie Mason notes the speed and massive consequences as unprecedented—enabled by influencer trust relationships:

  “The influencer relationship sped that trust-building process so the journalists could then very quickly focus on trying to get corroboration and all of the other necessary steps…”
  – Melanie Mason [15:20]

• However, Mason warns this should not be viewed as a license for all content creators to supplant investigative journalism:

  “There’s a role for them, clearly. But people should not think that this is going to be a replacement.”
  – Melanie Mason [15:58]

• Gladstone queries whether this marks a MeToo continuation or a new phase; Mason suggests it’s a “reaction to the reaction” — a pendulum swing after backlash, potentially led by Gen Z women with new tools and outlooks.

• Notably, the story illustrates a cultural evolution:

  “There were some things that stuck. There is absolutely cultural change… There is a generational difference… the charge being led by Gen Z women.”
  – Melanie Mason [18:28, paraphrased]

• The outsized influence of digital creators is underlined:

  “They said that those creators collectively had an audience of 200 million people. I mean, there’s not a media outlet in the world that would have that kind of reach.”
  – Melanie Mason [18:49]

---

Part 2: Hungary’s Democratic Earthquake – The Media’s Role in Defeating Viktor Orban

The Orban Downfall & Media Context

[21:35–25:29]

• Viktor Orban and his Fidesz party are ousted after 16 years, marking the end of an increasingly authoritarian regime.
• Orban’s opponents, like Peter Magyar, promise to rebuild independent media and undo state control. Orban’s “illiberal democracy” had served as a manual for right-wing leaders globally.

Journalism and Scandal as Catalysts

[23:17–28:48]

• Peter Magyar rose via independent YouTube media (“Partizan”), exposing regime corruption and child abuse cover-ups—stories ignored for years by the majority, but which finally penetrated the bubble due to economic crises and overwhelming evidence.

  “What has changed… is that Orban, for the first time, really acts like someone who’s in danger.”
  – Ivan Nagy [28:59]

• Investigative reporting consistently revealed embezzlement, nepotism (e.g., Orban’s childhood friend turned billionaire, crony army appointments), and widespread corruption, but mainstream impact was blunted until recent crises.

The Breaking Point, Public Euphoria, and Accountability

[31:25–34:04]

• The regime’s power began to unravel as whistleblowers revealed the extent of state surveillance and manipulation, shocking a public previously insulated by economic gains and state-controlled media.

  “Bombshell after bombshell in the media… People want this to end.”
  – Ivan Nagy [31:25]

• Election night was marked by scenes of euphoria on the streets of Budapest:

  “What I saw was complete and utter euphoria. Hundreds of thousands of people… Not just from Budapest, people from the countryside took the train up so they’d be there to see the results and celebrate.”
  – Ivan Nagy [40:08]

Facing the Future: Media, Democratic Resilience, and Challenges

[34:04–54:34]

• Magyar promptly shut down the state broadcaster—fulfilling a central campaign promise to restore journalistic independence.

  “What has been happening here since 2010 is something that Goebbels or the North Korean leadership would admire. Not a single true word being spoken. This cannot continue.”
  – Peter Magyar, as quoted by Ivan Nagy [42:32]

• The fragility of democratic institutions is analyzed:

  “Resilience, democratic resilience, is a very touchy subject in Central and Eastern Europe. …They’ve only had really three decades of experience with democracy. That’s not enough to build resilience.”
  – Ivan Nagy [34:34]

• The transformation’s depth is uncertain; Orban’s control of 80% of the media is breaking, but outlets need to recover credibility and financial independence without state advertising.

• The importance of persistent independent media is emphasized—both in hastening the regime’s downfall and in holding the new power to account. Magyar’s own rise is attributed to independent coverage, yet his social-media-driven sensitivity to criticism is flagged as a potential concern.

  “What the private actors will do—those Independent outlets that had survived the 16 years of Orbanism will continue to be the main source of information for much of the country. The other ones, those ones who were on government payroll, will have a very tough time building their reputation back.”
  – Ivan Nagy [46:57]

• Nagy reflects on the personal costs of journalism under Orban’s Hungary:

  “If you did this job as enthusiastically as a journalist should, it invaded your private life to an extent that went way beyond what is normal for a journalist… it was taking a toll on everyone.”
  – Ivan Nagy [50:53]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “That’s just the way it is. This is what Washington’s like.”
  – Melanie Mason [05:31]
• “We had just gone through this reckoning not all that long ago… Congress was actually somewhat spared from that back in 2017, 2018.”
  – Melanie Mason [05:35]
• “She became somewhat of a clearinghouse for these women who hadn’t talked about their stories publicly, but felt comfortable sharing with her as a social media influencer.”
  – Melanie Mason [10:57]
• “There is a long history and a lot of evidence of sexual assault experts who say that the victims often go back to the perpetrators.”
  – Alex Michaelson, CNN anchor [18:11]
• “They had put together a list of content creators that they were going to blast the story out to… Those creators collectively had an audience of 200 million people.”
  – Melanie Mason [18:49]
• “Having been an independent journalist in Hungary for five years, I only left a year and a half ago. Hostility was the kind of baseline emotion that you were feeling when you were out reporting… It became a kind of rite of passage to receive your first death threat through email.”
  – Ivan Nagy [28:59]
• “We’ve known that Orban’s been surveilling the opposition and journalists since 2019… We’ve known of all of these things. We never thought of all of these things.”
  – Ivan Nagy [29:40]
• “What I saw was complete and utter euphoria… this was much bigger than [when Hungary qualified for the European championship].”
  – Ivan Nagy [40:08]
• “We know that history keeps moving and sometimes things that we thought were gone for good return.”
  – Ivan Nagy [53:29]

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:05] – Introduction of Eric Swalwell’s candidacy and the first surfacing of sexual misconduct allegations.
• [03:35] – How messages from constituents to “Mrs. Frazzled” (Arielle Fodor) set the scandal in motion.
• [05:29] – The normalization (“That’s just the way it is”) among D.C. insiders.
• [08:39] – Disclosure of staffers’ trust and subsequent mass resignations.
• [09:58] – Fodor begins publicly naming Swalwell, shifts influencer discourse.
• [12:50] – The transfer of stories from influencers to established media.
• [14:05] – The emotional and rapid aftermath of story publication.
• [18:49] – Staggering reach of influencer networks in shaping political fate.
• [21:35] – Hungary’s regime change and Viktor Orban’s defeat context.
• [24:14] – The scandal that destabilized Orban’s presidency.
• [34:34] – Analysis of democratic resilience in Hungary and parallels to regional trends.
• [40:08] – Ivan Nagy on the mood in Budapest post-election.
• [42:32] – Magyar’s dramatic confrontation with state broadcasters and their shutdown.
• [46:57] – The uncertain future for former regime-aligned private outlets.
• [50:53] – Personal costs of journalism under authoritarian pressure.

---

Episode Takeaways

• Digital influencers have become critical intermediaries for whistleblowing and public accountability but are not substitutes for journalism’s rigor and safeguards.
• #MeToo’s momentum can be weaponized with unprecedented speed—especially when influencer networks and traditional media work in tandem.
• Democratic backsliding can be arrested, but only with sustained, resilient journalism and independent media—underscored by Hungary’s dramatic transformation.
• The personal toll for journalists and the fragility of both reputations and institutions present continuing challenges in both contexts.

---

This episode draws a sharp line connecting new media’s possibilities and traditional journalistic responsibility, illustrating both the promise and perils of holding power—and abusers—publicly to account.

Transcript

[Ivan Nagy]

You're being compared to Viktor Orban. You can only be great for the press.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hungary's newly elected prime minister, Peter Magyar says he wants to overhaul state media and support a free press. And changes are already underway.

[Ivan Nagy]

Those independent outlets that had survived the 16 years of Orbanism will continue to be the main source of information for much of the country. The other ones, those ones who were on government payroll will have a very tough time building their reputation back.

[Brooke Gladstone]

From WNYC in New York, this is ON THE media. I'm Brooke Gladstone. Also on this week's show, a political career cut short.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Multiple women have accused Swalwell of sexual misconduct and assault. Breaking news coming just 20 minutes ago, Eric Swalwell announcing he's suspending his run for California's governor.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Set in motion by a whisper campaign and a couple of influencers.

[Melanie Mason]

The story comes out and they all just burst into tears.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's all coming up after this.

[Narrator/Announcer]

OnTheMedia is supported by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. OnTheMedia is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort, offering destination focused small ship experiences on all seven continents with a shore excursion included in every port and programs designed for cultural enrichment. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Learn [e-mail] WNYC Studios is supported by WISE. WISE, the Smart Way to manage the currencies you need around the world. With a Wise account, you can send, spend and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today. Terms and conditions apply.

[Brooke Gladstone]

From WNYC in New York. This is ON THE media. Michael Loewinger's out this week. I'm Brooke Gladstone. Two weeks ago, Eric Swalwell was a Democratic congressional representative, a cable news darling, and one of the top candidates running to be the next governor of California.

[Narrator/Announcer]

But then multiple women have accused Swalwell of sexual misconduct and assault.

[Melanie Mason]

This Capitol Hill staffer is coming forward for the first time on camera to talk about her experience with Congressman Eric Swalwell. I kept figuring out ways to blame myself. Well, Eric shouldn't have raped me.

[Narrator/Announcer]

One woman telling the San Francisco Chronicle that she had several sexual encounters with the congressman while working in his office. She also accused him of sexually assaulting her Twice while she was too intoxicated.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The Democratic representative denies the accusations, posting this video Friday night.

[Narrator/Announcer]

These allegations of sexual assault are flat false.

[Melanie Mason]

They are absolutely false.

[Narrator/Announcer]

They did not happen. They have never happened. And I will fight them with everything

[Ivan Nagy]

that I have today.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Lana Drew's a former model coming forward

[Melanie Mason]

to say that Swalwell assaulted her in his hotel room in 2018. He raped me and he choked me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And while he was choking me, I lost consciousness, and I thought I died.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Eric Swalwell announcing he's suspending his run for California's governor. And this scandal now widening. Tonight, Congressman Eric Swalwell resigning from Congress.

[Ivan Nagy]

It's now official.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The path this story took into the public eye was swift and unusual. It began with a series of messages sent to Ariel Fodor, a creator better known as Mrs. Frazzled. With 1.4 million followers on TikTok and around 760,000 on Instagram, she's a former kindergarten teacher who focuses on education policy.

[Melanie Mason]

A new government watchdog report found that the Department of Education basically stopped doing some of its most important oversight of student loan companies.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Last year, Fodor posted a story on Instagram with a positive message about Swalwell. And then the messages started showing up in her inbox.

[Melanie Mason]

It was a warning. It was a warning about Eric Swalwell.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Melanie Mason is POLITICO's California bureau chief and co author with Jeremy B. White of the recent piece the Whisper Network that Caught up to Eric Swalwell.

[Melanie Mason]

She heard from two strangers and also a friend of hers, and they were all sort of variations on the same theme, which is, you know, he sleeps with his staffers, right? Or don't give him your phone number because he'll text you late at night. For her, it was pretty jarring because she thought that he was a, you know, at least decent candidate for governor. And that's what sort of set her off on this quest.

[Brooke Gladstone]

She has a huge number of contacts among Democratic staffers. She started asking people, have you heard anything about this?

[Melanie Mason]

That's right, because there's so much desire for these politicians to get on her platform to reach her audience. They all are courting her and other influencers. So she has the phone numbers of all of these staffers and all of these campaign operatives, and quite frankly, all of these lawmakers. I mean, I think us reporters would actually be quite jealous. And so she was able to. And what she heard back was, yes, there are rumors about this, or, yes, this happened to a friend of mine. And when she'd say, well, why don't you say anything? The response that she got back was, well, that's just the way it is.

[Brooke Gladstone]

That's just the way it is.

[Melanie Mason]

That's just the way it is. This is what Washington's like.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Was she stunned?

[Melanie Mason]

I think she was stunned because we had just gone through this reckoning not all that long ago. But, you know, thinking back on the Me Too movement, Congress was actually somewhat spared from that back in 2017, 2018. And if you're a young staffer coming up and people just say, oh, of course he's texting you late at night, that's just what he does, I think that you then think, okay, I guess this is what the culture is.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah. Rumors were dogging his campaign practically from the start. There's a longtime Democratic strategist, Mike Trujillo, who'd heard a story back in 2017 about a friend of a friend who'd had a negative experience with Swalwell. And since then, he kept hearing similar stories. So then in December, a month after Swalwell decided that he was going to run for governor, unusually late to jump into a race like that, Trujillo posted on social media that Swalwell had slept with interns, sexually harassed women, sent weird texts late at night. He wrote, endorse at your own peril. Did he have an axe to grind?

[Melanie Mason]

He absolutely had an axe to grind. I mean, he's a political operative. I mean, as he told me, like, everything I do is political. And I assume that everybody sees what I do is political. You know, he's a very close ally of Antonio Villaragoza, who's the former Los Angeles mayor, also somebody that's running for governor. But I do think that there is also a crusading aspect of this because he had been hearing these rumors for so long, and it's the culmination of what's been sort of this years long, squirreling away of little bits of threads and tips and sort of half baked anecdotes that he then started pitching to reporters.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Trujillo's post went viral, got 140,000 views. Eventually he had to pull it because Swalwell's campaign sent a cease and desist letter, tried to discredit Trujillo as his source for this story. But the rumors compelled power brokers to finally bring them up to Swalwell directly. He wanted endorsements, he wanted money. They asked if there was anything to

[Melanie Mason]

the story because their credibility is at stake as well. A major endorser like SCIU California, for example, can really be the difference maker. When it comes to maybe pushing somebody into frontrunner status. And so there was a lot of conversation before they decided who to endorse. And in addition to the questions of what is your policy stance or what is your political beliefs, there was the question of is there anything that's going to embarrass you and by extension embarrass us and sometimes very directly. I mean, I think they would ask, did you sleep with staff members across the board? What I've heard from people is that he denied it, and not just denied it, but denied it so emphatically that people were inclined to believe him. I think that people are so used to hearing politicians use all of their hedge words and maybe try to give themselves some wiggle room. And because he was so definitive in saying there's no there there, there's nothing going on, they chose to take him at his word.

[Brooke Gladstone]

He also apparently lied to his campaign staffers. One of them, you quot the dude deserves an effin academy award for liar of the year.

[Melanie Mason]

He had a call with his senior staff hours before these stories dropped. They then were aware that these stories were coming and they have a zoom call with him and his senior staff, who are all women by the way, are pelting him with questions for an hour. They came away feeling satisfied that he was telling the truth. An hour later when CNN sent an email saying, here are the facts that we're prepared to report. These senior staffers saw this and several of them resigned on the spot. They were so disgusted by what they read.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I want to back up a bit here to Mrs. Frazzled. Long before this story broke, she starts to act. In February, she posted a cryptic message expressing disappointment in a congress member, which sounds to me like some sort of Walter Winchell. What movie star was canoodling with her co star in the back of Sardis? But it still managed to elicit a message from Swallow. Then campaign manager Yardena Wolf. Bring me back to that moment.

[Melanie Mason]

This very cryptic post was sent to me and I'm sure other reporters saying, you know this is about Swalwell, right? Not by her.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You didn't have to guess.

[Melanie Mason]

Yeah, it sounded like that got back to Yardena as well, because she sent a message and it just said, I heard you had some concerns stemming from these horrible rumors that started from a tweet from a staffer for an opponent. You know, if you have any concerns, I'd love to talk to you about it. And I think that Mrs. Frazzled between the lines. I think she saw that as somewhat of A threat. I don't know if that was the intent or not. She took it that way. And after that, she started naming Eric Swalwell by name in her posts. I have heard from sitting members of Congress, former congresspeople, staffers, former staffers, content creators, journalists, tons and tons and tons of people at this point that there are widespread allegations and conversations about power imbalances around. As soon as she starts saying his name, she started getting more messages saying, yes, I've had this experience. And she became somewhat of a clearinghouse for these women who hadn't talked about their stories publicly, but felt comfortable sharing with her as a social media influencer,

[Brooke Gladstone]

that special parasocial relationship.

[Melanie Mason]

It's fascinating. While it would feel kind of scary to reach out to an investigative reporter, maybe this was the intermediary step that people could feel comfortable with.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So, as you say, when Foder heard from Wolf, she didn't respond to her. Instead, she escalated. Meanwhile, Cheyenne Hunt, a new party, a lawyer and former Democratic congressional candidate, received a message from a close friend. It was pivotal. What did it say?

[Melanie Mason]

This friend said, I was harassed by Eric Swalwell. And her friend specifically said to her it was because it felt like his campaign for governor was getting steam. And I think that she was distraught at the fact that he could be in a position to have such a powerful job. She knew that her friend Cheyenne had this quite large platform and asked her to make this post. So that was two weeks ago. I mean, the timeline of this is so incredibly fast. Cheyenne does this post. The Democratic candidate currently leading in the California governor's race has a known history

[Narrator/Announcer]

of being predatory towards women.

[Melanie Mason]

And while it may be Cheyenne and Nariel don't know each other, which I think is also a fascinating element of this. But word gets back to Arielle that Cheyenne is planning to put this post up night before. And that's actually the first time they connect. And I think for Arielle, it was this really redemptive moment. Right. Cause I think she felt very lonely. And to now have a second person say, I also know of these allegations, they could then sort of work together to both keep the drumbeat up of this publicly. But they were also gathering these women's stories to then connect them with journalists so they could go through sort of the traditional media vetting.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hunt and Fodor started seeking pro bono legal counsel for the women. And as you said, they decided to take their stories to the press. I'm just wondering, why didn't they just make the charges themselves?

[Melanie Mason]

I think even in this Wild west new media landscape where creators have a lot of influence. These two women at least knew that in order to have the most credibility, to have the most impact, it would be important to have the imprimatur of a known news organization. They primarily worked with CNN and established relationships with the reporters there and felt comfortable connecting these women to these reporters

[Brooke Gladstone]

and particular one named Alison Gordon.

[Melanie Mason]

Allison, I think was the primary conduit. And that was really important that there was this streamlined process, right. They weren't sort of dispersing these women of like, you talk to this reporter, you talk to this reporter. Having cnn and knowing them with cnn, they would have all of their guardrails, right? Their editorial processes, their lawyers. I mean, that thing was not going to be published until it was very, very worked through. I think that these influencers knew that they could never offer that. So that's why they thought it was important to have the actual details be disclosed in the press.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And then the big day. Friday, April 10, the news stories drop. First in the San Francisco Chronicle, then on cnn. CNN has new exclusive reporting about Congressman Eric Swalwell. The Democrat is running for California. How did they describe that day to you?

[Melanie Mason]

The story comes out and what Cheyenne told me is they all dispersed into tears. It was just this like big cathartic moment of like, oh, my God, this is finally out there. It's been kind of full tilt ever since. I was just watching Cheyenne on cnn. They are out talking to reporters. They're being very public about what their role is because they see this as a movement that they want to continue to keep up. Beyond the Eric Swalwell story, he may

[Brooke Gladstone]

have had wide support, but certainly not deep support, because within a week, Eric Swalwell had suspended his campaign for governor, resigned from Congress, and then the Manhattan DA opened a criminal investigation. His closest allies and friends abandoned him. You've reported on MeToo stories. You know, they can be very tough. You're asking these women, mostly women, to trust you with traumatic moments from their lives. We've seen over and over again how it often doesn't go well for these women, depending on who their attacker was. How remarkable is it then that Fodor and Hunt were able to collect these stories and get them to press so quickly with such rapid and massive consequences for Swalwell.

[Melanie Mason]

It's stunning. When I was talking to Cheyenne and realized that from the day she got involved to the day the stories ran, it was just 11 days. I was stunned because I do have experience reporting these stories. And when they're newsworthy, you certainly are working as fast as you can, but as responsibly as you can. And so much of that is about establishing trust building, these types of relationships, and then also interrogating these stories too. Right? I mean, that's the responsible role of the press. The fact that they were able to do that on such a compressed timeline, I do think speaks to how the influencer relationship sped that trust building process so the journalists could then very quickly focus on trying to get corroboration and all of the other necessary steps of turning these stories around. Cheyenne said this is not a green light for content creators to think that they're investigative journalists with sensitive stories. I mean, there's a role for them, clearly. But people should not think that this is going to be a replacement for investigative journalism.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You look at the trail of harassed women in our president's wake, and it seems like we live in an age where it's very tough to hold politicians, especially those at the top, accountable. And the MeToo movement seems like such a long time ago and almost quaint. Like maybe providing stories and evidence of bad behavior doesn't matter anymore. So do you see this story as a continuation of the Me Too movement or something else?

[Melanie Mason]

I've thought about this a lot because we saw such a rush of attention and reckoning and self examination in 2017 and 2018 during the MeToo movement. And then we absolutely saw a reaction to that, a backlash. And so now this is maybe like a reaction to the reaction. Right. And I think that that's the way that things happen a lot in politics is it's not a line one way or the other. It's a pendulum.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Is it a reaction to a reaction, or is it just that Swalwell turned out to be an easy target? I mean, no one's gonna lose anything if he goes down.

[Melanie Mason]

Absolutely. The allegations against him are so serious that nobody would want to associate themselves with them. But there was a moment that really stood out to me as this story was being covered that I think is sort of indicative of how things have changed since MeToo. Alex Michaelson, who's a CNN anchor, had Swalwell's lawyer on the show. And Swalwell's lawyer said what we've often heard when pushing back against allegations of sexual assault.

[Narrator/Announcer]

These women, certain of them, have reached out to the congressman on multiple occasions, wishing him nothing but the best, saying that they'd vote for him for governor, asking for references for jobs, attending social events with him. So looking at the facts, I do have to question the credibility of these allegations.

[Melanie Mason]

And Alex on TV said, you know,

[Narrator/Announcer]

that there's a long history and a lot of evidence of sexual assault experts who say that the victims often go back to the perpetrators.

[Melanie Mason]

I don't think that that's something that would have been said on TV so quickly in 2017.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hell no.

[Melanie Mason]

There were some things that stuck. There is absolutely cultural changes. And you know, remember Cheyenne and Arielle? They were eight, nine years younger at the time. I mean, I do think there is a generational difference that you're now seeing the charge being led by Gen Z women. That's another factor here that we should keep in mind.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Another factor is the power of influencers.

[Melanie Mason]

I personally as a journalist did not appreciate how strong that reach actually was. They had put together a list of content creators that they were going to blast the story out to when these stories came out. And they said that those creators collectively had an audience of 200 million people. I mean, there's not a media outlet in the world that would have that kind of reach. These are an important player in our news information environment.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Melanie, thank you so much.

[Melanie Mason]

Thanks for having me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Melanie Mason is POLITICO's California bureau chief and co author of the California Playbook. She reported this story with Jeremy White. Coming up, more scandals exposed. This is on the Media.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

WNYC Studios is supported by Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes back with its third season. Each spring, 23 prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music. Pulitzer on the Road brings conversations with prize winners to you. You'll hear from the New Yorkers, David Remnick and Carlos Lozada of the New York Times, authors Natasha Trethewey and Lucy Sant, and journalists Nariman Al Mufti and Tolu Olorunipa. Listen to Pulitzer on the Road wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Announcer]

OntheMedia is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort, offering destination focused small ship experiences on all seven continents with a shore excursion included in every port and programs designed for cultural enrichment. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Learn [e-mail] Are you looking for the best deal on a new home? Discover the Dr. Horton home of the Week. With new construction homes now selling in ellensburg from the mid-3002, Dr. Horton has the right home at the best value for you, offering one and two story homes near Central Washington University. Your new home is within reach. So what are you waiting for? Learn more about the Dr. Horton Home of the Week. Visit drhorton.com and schedule a tour today. Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder. I'm Al Edson, host of Reveal. From central Mexico to the front lines of Ukraine, we were given an order not to take any prisoners from an abortion clinic in Florida. A woman was just assaulted to the streets of Chicago.

[Brooke Gladstone]

More than 2,000 kilograms of heroin came to Chicago.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Reveal is your weekly dose of investigative reporting.

[Melanie Mason]

Somebody has to say something.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Subscribe to Reveal. Wherever you get your podcasts, this is on the media.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I'm Brooke Gladstone. Last Sunday, Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orban was on the ballot for re election. He and his party, Fidesz, lost big.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Tonight, Hungary's Viktor Orban has conceded defeat in what he called a, quote, painful election. Voters turned out in record numbers to end his 16 year increasingly authoritarian rule. Now Orban was backed by both the Kremlin and the White House, something you don't hear every day. Vice President Vance even visiting Budapest last week to campaign for him. I've seen a guy who has ferociously advocated for the interests of Hungary. I'm here to help him in this campaign.

[Ivan Nagy]

Suck.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Orban had systematically brought Hungary's institutions under state control, from the courts to the education system to the press, gutting the democratic Czechs to his power. And Orban's style of, quote, democratic illiberalism served as a kind of manual for President Trump and the Maga right dubbed the Hungarian model. Martin Gulyash is a founder and lead anchor of Hungary's top independent News show, a YouTube channel called Partizan. On our show last spring, he explained how partisan played a vital role in the rise of Peter Magyar, now Hungary's prime minister elect.

[Melanie Mason]

He said that he's fed up with

[Ivan Nagy]

the style of the government, with the

[Narrator/Announcer]

misconduct of the public funds and the

[Brooke Gladstone]

level of corruption and the concentration of

[Narrator/Announcer]

power in Orban's hand.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Martan says that before appearing on Partisan, one of Hungary's very few outlets that feature opposition voices, Peter Magyar was an insider, but not a politician.

[Narrator/Announcer]

He was a kind of whistleblower coming

[Melanie Mason]

from within the system, telling the audience what kind of scandals he witnessed within the circle.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And there were scandals galore, but few resonated like this one. In February 2024, Hungary's President at the

[Ivan Nagy]

time, Katalin Nowak, pardoned someone who was convicted for helping the head of a foster home cover up child abuse. Basically, it brought about the downfall of Catalin Nowak and it brought about the rise of Peter Magya.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Ivan Naghi is a political journalist from Hungary now Delacorte fellow at the Columbia Journalism Review, we spoke to him twice this month, both before and after Hungary's historic election. Naghi says that the rapid erosion in Orban's seemingly invulnerable power base began with that bombshell story which quickly brought down Hungary's then president, a largely ceremonial post.

[Ivan Nagy]

President Novak, before she was appointed the President of Hungary, was the Minister of Family affairs for Orban. It was a huge position created solely for her and for her successors because one of Orban's main political platforms is being a pro family government, offering all sorts of tax breaks and financial advances to families who have multiple children. It's what he uses to try to sugarcoat his very anti LGBTQ stance in social life. To find out that your president pardoned someone who helped cover up a crime that is huge.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You know, it feels so kind of quaint that Hungarians still care about outrageous hypocrisy.

[Ivan Nagy]

I mean, from day one, investigative work has kept an eye on this regime, but it's virtually impossible to break through the noise and especially to have a story that penetrated beyond a certain bubble of society that could access free information. Because one of the building blocks of this regime is the complete isolation of huge populations from verified objective news.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Back to the interview that Magyar did, the one that went viral, you say it kicked off some of the first real backlash that Orban has seen during his regime. What were these stories that no one

[Ivan Nagy]

paid attention to prior to the child abuse story? For instance, one of these stories is that in the 2010s, public money from Hungary's central bank was funneled into non governmental organizations, on paper, charities, all led and run by people who are related to either the son of the head of the national bank or his business circles. And what ended up happening is that around $1.5 billion worth of Hungarian foreigns were embezzled and lost. This is something that journalists have covered for years, that the business circles of the central bank leader's son have gotten so rich that they actually purchased Skyline apartments condos in Manhattan's Fifth Avenue. And these are the kind of things that never really reach broader society. It's mostly corruption related. Hungary's richest man was once the pipe fitter, the gas man of Viktor Orban, a childhood friend. And now virtually in every industry in Hungary, he owns a majority stake. These kinds of things journalists have covered for long. But one of the many reasons that didn't resonate with people is that people doing relatively well off in Hungary. Orban paid a lot of attention to making sure that the amount of money that people see in their bank accounts or in their wallets is just always slightly, a little more than the month before or the year before.

[Brooke Gladstone]

All people, Ivan, or just the elite.

[Ivan Nagy]

Obviously, Orban's business circles were the biggest beneficiaries of his governance. But what Orban has done to guarantee his success is to make the most vulnerable parts of society feel like they are better off. Wages have actually risen consistently from 2010 until 2022, people felt like they had more money on their bank accounts. Now, the problem was, and what we try to report on, is that at the same time, Hungary has the highest value added tax in the world, 27% on every purchase. Hungary has had after Covid and the war In Ukraine, a 25% inflation rate, all sorts of other economic measures that Orban imposed on businesses all trickled down to the consumer level.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So surely the electorate would have noticed

[Ivan Nagy]

that, except they did not, because on the surface, it did look like they had more money in their bank accounts. And that was kind of the magic of Orban. A lot of times before elections, we had seen all sorts of cash advances and tax breaks and many, many ways in which people would see a large amount of money reach their bank accounts. His regime started to crumble only in the past four years because of all the economic crises, because of COVID because of the war in Ukraine. They're connecting the dots. And here's Peter Magyar, someone who's been in front of the public eye for two years and telling them that you're struggling to pay your rent. I'm pointing to the guy who's responsible for it. It's because of him. Look at his cronies on their yachts. Look at his family getting rich. Why? You're getting poorer.

[Brooke Gladstone]

See, we've often looked at Hungary as an example of democratic backsliding, where the press seemed to have less and less influence.

[Ivan Nagy]

Having been an independent journalist in Hungary for five years, I only left a year and a half ago. Hostility was the kind of baseline emotion that you were feeling when you were out reporting, especially if you're reporting on rallies connected to Orban. It became a kind of rite of passage to receive your first death threat through email. What has changed over the past couple of years, and especially in the past couple of months running up to this election, has been that Orban, for the first time, really acts like someone who's in danger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You've noted that a half dozen whistleblowers have given tell all interviews about how the regime operates.

[Ivan Nagy]

Yeah.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Orban is all over the Tabloids.

[Ivan Nagy]

Now, there is a saying in Hungarian which roughly translates to we've known, but we never thought. Everyone knows officials can be bribed, but until someone gets investigated and taken down for this, people pretend like it doesn't exist. And now more and more people are coming out to speak up from the army. Someone had a tell all interview for a press outlet called Telex about just how much it is politically controlled instead of professionally controlled, and how much power Viktor Orban's own son has within the army to do whatever he wants. Another very explosive interview a couple weeks ago. An investigator from the Hungarian police force revealed that the government, through the secret service, have been surveilling Peter Modjar's party and tried to compromise members of Peter Modjar's IT team to bring down the internal network of the party. We've known that Orban's been surveilling the opposition and journalists since 2019, when it turned out that his government has installed spyware on dozens of people's phones in the independent press and NGO sphere and political spheres. We've known Viktor Orban's son had virtually unlimited power in the army because we've had investigative reporting about it. We've known of all of these things. We never thought of all of these things. Right. I don't know if it makes sense, but the point is, if you have a regime which is in many ways held together by fear, people deciding, being fully aware of the potential consequences, to still talk to the media kind of shows how much of this imaginary power you have left.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You quoted journalist Noemi Martini saying that, quote, if someone lit up a match, the place would explode.

[Ivan Nagy]

She was referring to just how much tensions have overboiled in this election campaign. Even from an ocean away, I feel it on my skin. Bombshell after bombshell in the media. Explosive revelations about the government every other day. Viktor Orban and his government coming up with new narratives every other day. You have sex scandals, you have pedophilia scandals, corruption scandals, foreign policy scandals, you have spy games. And this is another thing that Noemi told me. People want this to end.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So Magyar wins. What have we got? A paradise of press freedom.

[Ivan Nagy]

I wish any politician could promise a paradise of press freedom. So Peter Magyar, here's the thing about him, you're being compared to Viktor Orban. You can only be great for the press. And Peter Magyar is a super professional politician. He has a very detailed political platform, a program, has a whole section on how he would restructure public media. That is something that Hungarians want That is something that Hungarians need. And as I've mentioned, he's already much more open. Like, he gives interviews to independent outlets.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And you say that Magyar has a toxic habit, a very thin skin.

[Ivan Nagy]

Evidently, Peter Magyar is very active on social media, which means Facebook in Hungary. And every time one of the larger independent outlets writes about him critically, whether that's about his platform or investigation, getting his past, whatever, he shows up in the comment section and launches a tirade against the news outlet, accusing them of being funded by the government or just putting laughing and crying emojis. And because he has built a cult following, because, let's face it, people believe in him. Many people believe in him as the Messiah. Many of his followers follow him in the act. You see mass unsubscriptions from outlets if they write something critical about Magyar. You see people sending texts and threats like, why are you in the way of the change of the regime? You're supposed to be on our side. And this is why I believe that there has to be a very steep learning curve in Hungary for media literacy, because people will need to understand that these same people who had been scrutinizing Viktor Orban because he had unrestricted power for 16 years, who else would you be looking at? The opposition who has no political power? No, obviously the press was scrutinizing the one man and his regime that's defined this era of Hungarian. And people will need to learn that the press is not there to bash Orban. The press is always there to scrutinize the one in power.

[Brooke Gladstone]

We recently had Vox's Zach Beauchamp on to talk about how countries display democratic resilience. He referenced Brazil, South Korea, Poland. Poland in particular, though, is showing signs of potentially waffling back toward the right wing. Given the mixed messages from Magyar. How sustainable is this current and fragile?

[Ivan Nagy]

Perhaps resilience, democratic resilience, is a very touchy subject in Central and Eastern Europe. In all of the countries that once used to be the part of the Soviet sphere of influence, they've only had really three decades of experience with democracy. That's not enough to build resilience. That's enough to build a basic understanding as long as everyone plays along. And in these countries, you mentioned Poland, but you can also mention the Czech Republic. You can also mention Slovakia. People have not been playing along. Figures like Viktor Orban have not been playing along. Or figures like Robert Fico in Slovakia have not been playing along. The reason they have not is that they understood that these democratic foundations in the society are not strong enough to actually withstand the pressure of an autocrat. So talking about resilience in countries which barely understand democracy in the first place, societies that have barely had an experience in with democracy in the first place, and then 15 or 20 years in, we're subjected to an autocrat. It's kind of starting again. And it's something that, you know, educated, glasses wearing, blue shirt wearing, welcomed individuals like myself from large cities can actually delve into and talk about. But it's not an issue that concerns these societies. These societies are concerned with having enough money in the bank to buy enough food, to pay for rent, to be able to buy a new refrigerator if the old one breaks. That is the focus of life for the overwhelming majority of society. So to answer your question, ultimately nobody knows if any bounce back in terms of democracy would last in Hungary just as much as we don't know anywhere else in the region. And obviously we're getting more and more skeptical of just how resilient democracies are in the US or in the UK or across European Union countries. But what is certain is that, that Peter Magyar would come to government to establish a democracy partly because he is a democrat. While he resembles, in many ways resembles an old version of Viktor Orban, who's very charismatic, who has this central right Christian kind of approach to governance that is very popular in Hungary society. He is at heart a democrat. And not only that, he will have a lot of pressure on him. One of the things that keeps coming back, back in reports when people go to his rallies in the countryside. I myself have followed him for an entire day on the campaign trail last summer. It's just how much faith people put in him, just how much people expect of him. He can't let the country down. So that alone should guarantee some sort of democratic fortune for Hungary in the coming years. But in the long run, it's going to be years and years and years and decades of consistent pro democratic politics. Politics just to establish some baseline democratic resilience.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hungarian political journalist Ivan Nagy. Coming up. We call on Ivan again after election night in Budapest to get him to describe what he saw and ponder what happens next. This is on the media.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

WNYC Studios is supported by Pulitzer on the Road, the official podcast of the Pulitzer Prizes, back with its third season. Each spring, 23 prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music. Pulitzer on the Road brings conversations with prize winners to you. You'll hear from the New Yorkers, David Remnick and Carlos Lozada of the New York Times authors Natasha Trethewey and Lucy Sant and journalists Nariman Al Mufti and Tlu Olorunipa. Listen to Pulitzer on the Road wherever

[Narrator/Announcer]

you get your podcasts onthemedia is supported by Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort, offering destination focused small ship experiences on all seven continents with a shore excursion included in every port and programs designed for cultural enrichment. And every Viking voyage is all inclusive with no children and no casinos. Learn [e-mail] Are you looking for the best deal on a new home? Discover the Dr. Horton home of the Week. With new construction homes now selling in ellensburg from the mid-3002, Dr. Horton has the right home at the best value for you, offering one and two story homes near Central Washington University. Your new home is within reach. So what are you waiting for? Learn more about the Dr. Horton Home of the Week, visit drhorton.com and schedule a tour today. Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing Opportunity Builder. I'm Al Edson, host of Reveal. From central Mexico to the front lines of Ukraine, we were given an order not to take any prisoners from an abortion clinic in Florida. A woman was just assaulted to the streets of Chicago.

[Brooke Gladstone]

More than 2,000 kilograms of heroin came to Chicago.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Reveal is your weekly dose of investigative reporting.

[Melanie Mason]

Somebody has to say something.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Subscribe to Reveal Wherever you get your

[Ivan Nagy]

podcasts,

[Brooke Gladstone]

this is ON the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone. Hungary's Tisa Party, led by Prime Minister elect Peter Madhyar, secured an astonishing 2/3 majority in Parliament. Hungarian journalist Ivan Nagy, who you just heard a minute ago, was in Budapest on election day and told us what he saw and felt.

[Ivan Nagy]

I'm still trying to find the words. I spent most of the night in the press tent not far from where Peter Modyar announced the next chapter in Hungarian history. But a little later I got to join people on the streets and what I saw was complete and utter euphoria. Hundreds of thousands of people, not just from Budapest apartments. People from the countryside took the train up to Budapest so they'd be there to see the results and then eventually celebrate. I later on went on a live TV show just to kind of check in. I tried to find a quiet place somewhere far enough from the crowds and I got ambushed on live television. All of those things that you usually see when you look at foreign coverage of like a quote unquote revolution abroad or soccer games. Yeah, very similar. I mean, the only similar atmosphere I can recall from this country was 10 years ago when Hungary qualified for the European championships in soccer and won its first game and the whole city came to a standstill. And this was much bigger than that.

[Brooke Gladstone]

A lot of people were disappointed by the results. Right. Where are they?

[Ivan Nagy]

There are some of them, yes. This regime had a massive clientele. It had political influencers, it had pro government journalists, propagandists, it had thousands of people making a. A echo chamber of pro government messages on social media and on the airwaves of public media, all sorts of quasi government actors in quasi scientific think tanks and obviously in all sorts of government offices. We tend to see kind of 3 Responses to the Result. One is the staying silent, laying low kind of response, which some of the ministers have done. The other one is the we're going to stick together, work from opposition and turn this around because the nationalists in this country need us. Their argument is that still two and a half million people voted for Viktor Orban, maybe a bit fewer, which could sound like a good argument, but at the same time, people in a very resounding manner voted for regime change. So I don't know how much that argument holds up. And then the third kind of people are what I find the most fascinating as a journalist, are the ones who are leaving the Fidesz camp, at least for a moment, to go and talk to independent media and start pointing fingers at who's to blame for this loss.

[Brooke Gladstone]

As you predicted, Magyar shut down the state broadcaster, M1. In fact, he went on the channel after he wanted to confront some hosts directly to say, quote, what has been happening here since 2010 is something that Goebbels or the North Korean leadership would admire. Not a single true word being spoken. This cannot continue. Do you think most Hungarians even care?

[Ivan Nagy]

Turning state media into propaganda was one of the original sins of this past government. And it's been a very important campaign promise of Petar Mayor to shut it down altogether. Now, what happened was that Peter Malyar was invited for an interview for only the second and third time in his political career. So he went on state radio first and then state TV after, and both reporters tried to provoke him, tried to personally insult him. I mean, it's a bold and in some ways audacious move to sit down in front of someone who'd been a voice of this propaganda channel for a decade. Look them in the eye and tell them straight that you're out of a job. We're shutting this whole thing down. But that is what Hungarians voted for. State tv, state radio and State Service radio. What I mean by that is the state news agency, which delivers news to all radio channels across the country, they still remain the primary source of information. For me, millions of Hungarians now, we haven't really found the in depth reporting so far of how this result has gone down in the countryside. But news broadcasts on public TV started kind of sounding like the truth. They reported on the victory they cited for the first time that I can remember, independent news outlets. They talked to experts who were not paid by the government. And I can only assume that it's a massive shock in places that still believe this regime was going to carry on. I think right now the country's in a shock. Both those who are shocked by how large a victory was and are celebrating it, but by also those who are now figuring out that they'd been living in a fabricated world for so long now.

[Brooke Gladstone]

State broadcasters were just a small part of it. It's estimated that Orban's Fidesz party controlled 80% of the country's media, mostly press that's in private hands. Are these guys gonna see the writing on the wall and switch how they cover the news?

[Ivan Nagy]

I think we're gonna have to wait and see. You know, there's still months before he can actually start running the country. In practice, many of these outlets, that kind of 80% share of the media market were not profitable. They were either supported by oligarchs close to government or through state advertising. Now state advertising will be gone, right? It's going to be gone on day one of Peter Malyar being in office. But also I'm interested to see how oligarchs will react. Because if the whole Fidesz camp starts to crumble, at the end of the day, they might just remain businessmen who will not want to invest in projects that are not profitable. And out of that 80%, it's hard to name more than one or two that are even remotely profitable.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You know, it could be a laboratory for how to get people interested in what you're writing. Regular news consumers or how to make them news consumers. This is actually a very ripe time to make Hungary's population news interested because there'll be so much change.

[Ivan Nagy]

This is indeed the one opportunity to get this right. This is the mandate that Peter Moyer has received. If he plays his cards right, that would be fantastic for the society of Hungary on the long run. To have a public media that many other European countries have, one that really does not only serve their interest by delivering impartial and objective news, but also cultural content and educative content and all those things that you associate public media with. What the private actors will do those Independent outlets that had survived the 16 years of Orbanism will continue to be the main source of information for much of the country. The other ones, those ones who were on government payroll, will have a very tough time building their reputation back.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So Magyar himself rose to national prominence through Independent Media, an upstart website. Much of the reporting that chipped away at Orban's support came from these tiny independent media outlets. I guess that says good stuff to about journalism's ability to persevere under an authoritarian leader. Or is it simply that Magyar was the perfect person at the right time? A conservative that wouldn't scare the vast majority of conservatives in Hungary, and yet someone who challenged the most extreme impulses of the ruling autocracy?

[Ivan Nagy]

I would say both things that you say are correct. So on the one hand, yes, his whole career started on an interview on this YouTube channel called Partizan, which now has 600,000 subscribers, which is a lot by Hungary standards. That is a lot by Hungarian standards. And Partizan received the first question at Peter Modyar's first press conference as Prime Minister elect. Peter Modyar said that the person that you've now just listened to works for Partisan, a channel that filled the gap for public media when public media was propaganda and a place where my political career began. He also praised the next journalist who asked him a question, Balaz Kaufman, who was the investigative writer who first reported on the presidential pardon scandal that started the entire downfall of the Viktor Orban regime. So he really does recognize that the press was an important part of of keeping the light of democracy alive. On the other hand, what you mentioned in your question is that Peter Magyar was really the right person at the right time. The same channel, Partisan, conducted a survey of TISA voters to see what their political alignment was. And it was perfectly aligned that the same amount of people were left and right and center. It was clearly a popular front that Peter Magyar has led, but it was very important to him to be the kind of Christian democrat, center right person that could not only talk to those opposition people in Budapest who were going to vote for him nevertheless, but actually connect with those people disenchanted from right wing Fidesz as we're talking right now. By the way, they have just fired the number one commercial TV channel's news director. Mind you, the number one commercial channel is owned by Viktor Orban's top oligarch and it is a propaganda channel as we're talking, it happened.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Wow. So things are moving fast. I'm just wondering if at that press conference. The two reporters that he praised asked Magyar really difficult questions because he'll flood social media with pushback if he gets challenged. Are there any signs yet that his sensitivity may interfere with his efforts to reform the media landscape?

[Ivan Nagy]

Not yet. And this is a tricky and thank you for mentioning this because this is a tricky relationship because on the one hand, Modyard will, especially for the time first, foreign observers will want to look like someone who champions press freedom. At the same time, he does seem to have thinsky, and in this moment I feel like every question you ask him is a tough question. The Hungarian outlets are going to be asking about the dismantling of this current regime, but since he's not in power yet, what is there to hold him to account on? We don't know if he's going to deliver on his promises right now. There's just way too many questions, and Madhyar has been giving straight answers to those. But mind you, he's giving the answers that he's been giving on the campaign trail. So in that sense, it's not very different now than it was a week ago.

[Brooke Gladstone]

When did you leave Hungary?

[Ivan Nagy]

I left in August 2024.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Was there something that pushed you at that point?

[Ivan Nagy]

I spent the entirety of my early twenties working in the Hungarian press, and it was the greatest honor in that sense that I ran a very popular news analysis podcast and I wrote political analysis and columns that I felt resonated with a lot of people. And I did feel like the work that I but more importantly my colleagues in my newsroom and in other newsrooms are doing was essential. But at the same time I did feel like it was taking a toll on me under Orban. If you did this job as enthusiastically as a journalist should, it invaded your private life to an extent that went way beyond what is normal for a journalist, which is in the first place not normal for any normal person that's not a journalist. But it went far beyond that.

[Brooke Gladstone]

How would you describe the way it went beyond even the normal devotion to the craft?

[Ivan Nagy]

I would argue that people who cover politics in the US right now or over the past little more than a year, but in some ways over the past decade, kind of understand a feeling that you keep questioning yourself. What is the point of all of this when political life and social life has become so absurd and then the value of journalism has become so much lower in society partly because of political actors wanting it to be low. They just want to like, what even is the point of covering all of this? Because you can't really hold people to account. You can't really access the information that you want to access. You, you see yourself being discredited at all times. You see a lot of hate flowing through you. I think that is a feeling that's not very alien to reporters in the US right now. And then. And Orban's oligarchs purchased media organizations in Hungary and then turned them around to actually echo certain political messages. Wonder where I've heard that recently. And the point is that no, we were not suffering in the sense that we were not beaten up on the street, we were not thrown into jail. At the end of the day, it was a European Union country where all the repression was legal. And when you're doing things the legal way, there's only a certain distance you can go in going after your opponent. But it was taking a toll on everyone. And then I had a wonderful opportunity to come study in New York at Columbia University Journalism School. And then I got stuck here. For the best.

[Brooke Gladstone]

For the best. So you don't think you'll go back?

[Ivan Nagy]

See, that's a question that I haven't even answered when my family asked. So I might not do it right here on radio, but to. To give you some sort of wishy washy answer to this, we will have to wait and see. This is a momentary euphoria. We know that history keeps moving and sometimes things that we thought were gone for good return. That is certain that Hungary is going to be under huge economic strain because of what Viktor Orban has left. It's going to be very challenging for Peter Magyard to pull this country together or anyone else in the future. You know, what is this? It's day four. After 16 years of Viktor Orban in power. It's very, very early to judge. There's a momentary relief then the country in that sense, society in that sense is healing. But it has healed. To the extent that someone want to move back from the brilliant city of New York, I think it would be very early to say that Hungary is back on track.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's always a pleasure talking to you. Thanks so much.

[Ivan Nagy]

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hungarian political journalist Ivan Nagy is now Delacorte Fellow at the Columbia Journalism Review. And that's the show on the Media is produced by Molly Rosen, Rebecca Clark Callender and Candice Wong, with help from Macy Henslick Behrend. Travis Manon is our video producer. Our technical director is Jennifer Munson with engineering from Jared Paul. Eloise Blondio is our senior producer and our executive producer is Katya Rogers on the Media is produced by wnyc. Micah Loewinger will be back next week. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Whether it's news from around the world or the latest from your neighborhood, New Yorkers, engage with WNYC studios for the information and connection they can only get from our programming. Be a part of that conversation through your business support. Learn [e-mail].