On the Media (WNYC Studios)
Episode: The Danger of Keeping Score
Air Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Micah Loewinger
Guest: C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher & author
Episode Overview
This episode dives into the explosion of prediction markets, the broader societal obsession with metrics, and how the “game logic” of scoring systems shapes what we value—in both games and real life. Host Micah Loewinger interviews philosopher C. Thi Nguyen, whose new book explores how scores and metrics subtly (and not so subtly) nudge us to care about certain things, sometimes to the detriment of richer, more meaningful experiences.
Nguyen brings insight from a lifetime of gaming and from philosophy, cautioning against letting metrics define our lives, and offers a framework for reclaiming our values from simplistic scoring systems.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Prediction Markets and the Metrics Obsession
[00:00–01:51]
- Kalshi and similar platforms allow users to bet on real-world outcomes, blurring lines between gambling and news.
- Legal actions are mounting against these platforms; the markets totaled $64 billion in trading volume last year.
- Major media use prediction market data, feeding broader trends of quantification and “keeping score” in public life.
2. Games as Laboratories for Value
[02:22–04:32]
- Nguyen describes how his obsession with German board games exposed the power of scoring systems.
- Quote:
“The scoring system tells the players what to care about. It sets their desires in the game.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (02:44) - Scoring systems can totally reframe how people interact, as seen in pickup basketball or board games.
3. The ‘Magic Circle’ and Human Fluidity
[03:45–04:32]
- Games create a ‘magic circle’ where values and meanings shift.
- Quote:
“You have this magical ability. Open up some words and read them, Discover whether or not we’re going to be killing each other or cooperating and we just care... what’s easy to miss is how incredibly fluid we are.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (04:05) - Real-life systems increasingly exploit this by proposing “games” (goals, scores) everywhere.
4. Gamification and ‘Value Capture’
[04:49–06:03]
- Nguyen coins “value capture”: how external scoring systems take over what really matters to us.
- Personal anecdote: Academics enter philosophy for love of questions, but then get drawn into chasing journal rankings—“the terrain gives you a very simple scoring system and you orient.”
- This process is everywhere: academia, business, even creative fields.
5. The Compression of Values: Law School Rankings Example
[06:13–07:48]
- Law school rankings were intended to democratize info but end up flattening diverse values.
- Quote:
“Instead of a plural set of values, everyone is now pointed towards exactly the kinds of things that are measured in that system... the entire process sucks out independent deliberation.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (06:52)
6. The Rise of Metrics and Quantification
[07:48–09:33]
- Historian Theodore Porter’s concept: qualitative info is rich but travels poorly; quantifying info (like grades, rankings) is portable but flattens nuance.
- Quote:
“We’re getting portability at the price of nuance. And that, to me, is terrifying.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (09:09)
7. The Paradox: Metrics Ruin Real Life but Make Games Fun
[09:49–11:49]
- Philosopher Bernard Suits: Games are “unnecessary obstacles” we take on for the joy of process, not the outcome itself.
- Marathon and rock climbing examples illustrate the joy in the hard way—process over results.
- Quote:
“Games are a place that force you to confront the value of processes, the value of doing things in an interesting way... The journey is the destination.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (11:20) - Games can even reveal desires we didn’t know we had, through their arbitrary challenges (e.g., the boardgame The Mind).
8. Goals vs. Purpose: The Real Secret of Play
[11:57–13:30]
- Difference between ‘goal’ (win) and ‘purpose’ (have fun/socialize).
- Quote:
“When you have your friends over for a night of cards, the goal is to win, but the purpose is to have fun.”
— Barbara Herman (quoted by C. Thi Nguyen, 12:16) - Games teach us to pursue temporary goals for a deeper purpose.
9. Why Simplistic Scoring Fails in Real Life
[13:30–15:07]
- In games, simplified goals are fine because there’s no authentic basketball “point” before the rules are set.
- Real world metrics (Twitter likes, Rotten Tomatoes scores) claim to compress real, rich values—usually badly.
10. The 'Gap' and Misleading Metrics
[15:22–17:30]
- Example: Rotten Tomatoes flattens criticism, favoring universally “pretty good” films over divisive, great art.
- Quote:
“What metrics tempt us to do is to let something decide for us what counts as valuable, just because it’s easily measured.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (17:15) - Parental example: Screen time metrics erase the important distinctions between creative and passive activities.
11. How Should We Use Metrics in Daily Life?
[17:30–19:10]
- Outsourcing values to metrics is sometimes necessary (e.g., quick restaurant choice via Yelp), but we need to be conscious of what we’re outsourcing.
- Quote:
“There’s a huge difference between making a decision about which scoring systems you want to rule you and just passively letting the world… overwrite your values.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (18:35)
12. What Games Teach Us About Choosing Metrics
[19:10–21:16]
- Games as training: intentionally taking up and dropping score systems can help us better gauge when to let metrics shape us.
- Ultimate value lies not in achieving the highest scores, but in meaningful action and experience—the process itself.
- Quote:
“A meaningful life comes from processes, and we’ve tried to squeeze out games and play in a life of ever more optimizing our productivity and outcomes... we should actually remember the purpose of it all was to be engaged in beautiful doing.”
— C. Thi Nguyen (20:50)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- "The scoring system tells the players what to care about. It sets their desires in the game." —C. Thi Nguyen (02:44)
- "There’s a huge difference between making a decision about which scoring systems you want to rule you and just kind of passively letting the world... overwrite your values." —C. Thi Nguyen (18:35)
- "Games are these structures that are arranged where you chase points, and those points are meaningless except that they inspire a rich, fascinating process." —C. Thi Nguyen (20:57)
- "The journey is the destination, right? Yeah, that's what this means." —C. Thi Nguyen (11:20)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 00:00–01:51 – Prediction markets, legal issues, media partnerships
- 02:22–04:32 – The magic of scoring systems in games
- 04:49–06:03 – "Value capture" in academic and professional life
- 06:13–07:48 – Law school rankings as value compression
- 07:48–09:33 – Quantification vs qualitative nuance (Theodore Porter)
- 09:49–11:49 – Why games need arbitrary obstacles and scoring
- 11:57–13:30 – Goal vs. purpose, striving as play
- 13:30–15:07 – Scoring systems in games vs real life
- 15:22–17:30 – The ‘gap’ between what’s measured and what matters (Rotten Tomatoes, screen time)
- 17:30–19:10 – Outsourcing value to metrics: when and how to do it intentionally
- 19:10–21:16 – What games teach about evaluating metrics, “beautiful doing” at the core of meaning
Conclusion & Takeaways
The episode offers a nuanced critique of our growing dependence on scores, rankings, and metrics—showing how these tools both shape and flatten our values. Games provide clues on how to handle this: by taking up scoring systems intentionally and recognizing their limitations, we can prevent real life from turning into a joyless race for the highest score. Ultimately, a rich life is less about the numbers and more about the quality and meaning of the process itself.
Guest Bio:
C. Thi Nguyen is a philosophy professor at the University of Utah and author of How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game.
For further exploration:
- Listen to the full interview for more examples and practical advice on resisting “metric capture.”
- Consider your own “metrics”—where are they helping or hindering what really matters to you?