Trump Tries and (Mostly) Fails to Control the Narrative on Iran. Plus, RFK Jr. is Bad for Our Health

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Trump Tries and (Mostly) Fails to Control the Narrative on Iran. Plus, RFK Jr. is Bad for Our Health"

On the Media
Host/Author: WNYC Studios
Hosts: Brooke Gladstone and Michael Olinger
Guest: Dr. Paul Offit, Director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
Release Date: June 27, 2025

---

1. Trump's Efforts to Control the Iran Narrative

The episode begins with a discussion on former President Donald Trump's attempts to shape the narrative surrounding his military actions against Iran. After executing airstrikes on Iranian nuclear facilities, Trump aimed to declare his actions a success and maintain control over the storyline.

Brooke Gladstone introduces the topic:
[01:10] "After dropping bombs on Iran, President Trump is fighting to control the narrative."

Michael Olinger highlights Trump's initial claims:
[03:00] "The US Joined the fray last weekend naming its air assault on Iranian nuclear facilities Operation Midnight Hammer."

2. Conflicting Intelligence Assessments

The podcast delves into the conflicting reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) regarding the effectiveness of the strikes on Iran's nuclear program. While Trump and allies hailed the operation as highly effective, the DIA reported only a temporary setback.

Paul Offit explains:
[04:03] "The President speaking at a NATO summit on Wednesday. We assessed that the American strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities has set back Iran's ability to develop nuclear weapons for many years to come."

However, shortly after, the CIA Director John Radcliffe provided a contrasting assessment, suggesting the damage was not as severe as initially claimed.

Paul Offit:
[05:16] "Based on the assessments of the damage that these bombs implemented on these nuclear sites, that as of right now, it does not appear that they ended or obliterated Iran's nuclear program. Instead, they only set it back by months."

3. Media Misinformation and Fake Narratives

The episode criticizes the role of certain media figures in spreading misinformation. A notable incident involved Sean Hannity of Fox News sharing a video purportedly showing the destruction of Iran's facilities in Syria from 2024, misleading viewers into believing it depicted the recent attacks.

Michael Olinger:
[04:08] "It was very, very successful. It was called obliteration."

Paul Offit:
[08:29] "Pundits on Fox, MSNBC and CNN echoed the President's words. The United States bombed Iran's nuclear weapons."

4. Fragility of the Iran-Israel Ceasefire

Following the intense bombardment, a ceasefire was announced by Trump. However, the podcast highlights the fragility of this agreement, which nearly collapsed shortly after its inception, demonstrating the ongoing volatility in the Middle East.

Paul Offit:
[07:07] "The ceasefire nearly collapsed today, just hours after President Trump first announced the Israel Iran ceasefire."

5. RFK Jr.'s Overhaul of the CDC's Vaccine Advisory Committee

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s tenure as Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) and his restructuring of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP). Kennedy's actions have raised alarms among public health experts due to his anti-vaccine stance and the appointment of individuals with known anti-vaccine affiliations.

Brooke Gladstone:
[15:35] "HRF Jr. is replacing the entire independent committee that advises the CDC on vaccine usage, claiming members had too many outside conflicts."

Paul Offit:
[16:11] "CDC's immunization panel voted 5 to 1 today to recommend against flu vaccines containing thimerosal."

6. Implications for Vaccine Policy and Public Health

The removal of thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative, from flu vaccines and the subsequent restaffing of the ACIP with individuals skeptical of vaccines pose significant risks to public health. The panel's decision was influenced by Lynn Redwood, a known anti-vaccine advocate and founder of Children's Health Defense.

Paul Offit:
[17:08] "Lynn Redwood believes childhood vaccines containing thimerosal led to her son's autism."

Michael Olinger:
[20:07] "Women who are infected with COVID and pregnant are one and a half to two times more likely to be hospitalized... that's why the CDC recommended it."

7. Appointment of Controversial ACIP Members

Kennedy's appointment of new ACIP members includes individuals like Vicki Pebsworth and Dr. Robert Malone, both of whom have a history of anti-vaccine activism. Their inclusion undermines the scientific integrity of the committee and threatens to propagate misinformation.

Michael Olinger:
[24:35] "Vicki Pebsworth is a member of the National Vaccine Information center, which is an anti vaccine group."

Paul Offit:
[25:00] "Robert Malone is an MD who's also a scientist... he now puts out information that's clearly wrong."

8. Threats to the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

The discussion extends to Kennedy's potential manipulation of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP), which could open pharmaceutical companies to increased litigation. This jeopardizes vaccine availability by making it financially unattractive for companies to produce vaccines.

Michael Olinger:
[30:02] "If you really want to destroy vaccine programs in this country, all you have to do is mess around with the vaccine injury compensation program."

Paul Offit:
[32:32] "You could tell the CDC vaccine panel to remove a particular vaccine from the vaccine schedule... Manufacturers would leave the business."

9. Expert Concerns and Public Health Risks

Experts like Dr. Paul Offit express deep concern over the erosion of trust in public health institutions and the potential resurgence of preventable diseases. The departure of experienced CDC officials further exacerbates these fears.

Michael Olinger:
[48:28] "I think it's a dangerous time... We're at a time when people declare their own truths, including scientific truths."

Paul Offit:
[56:08] "I wake up every day sad that the things that I care about... is putting kids at risk."

10. Conclusion: The Erosion of Public Trust in Expertise

The episode concludes with a somber reflection on the declining trust in scientific expertise and public health institutions. The appointments and policy changes initiated by RFK Jr. signal a troubling shift away from evidence-based medicine, posing long-term threats to public health and safety.

Brooke Gladstone:
[52:28] "If you look at Trump's appointments across hhs... But the impact seems to be especially onerous in this case."

Michael Olinger:
[53:18] "Yes. I think we need to explain what we're doing and why we're doing it."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Michael Olinger on RFK Jr.'s Actions:
  [26:28] "Robert F. Kennedy Jr is about to change recommendations... which is to say he had an anti vaccine bent or an anti science."

• Paul Offit on Vaccine Programs:
  [27:37] "This notion that this vaccine killed children, causing sudden heart attacks, no wonder people are scared."

• Brooke Gladstone on ACIP Meeting:
  [33:46] "So at Kennedy's confirmation hearing for the job, he now has Republican Senator William Cassidy, a doctor. He expressed clear concern in his questioning of the nominee."

• Michael Olinger on Public Health and Individual Rights:
  [50:47] "There is a tension between public health and individual rights and freedoms."

---

Key Takeaways

1. Misinformation and Media Manipulation: Trump's attempts to control the narrative on Iran were undermined by conflicting intelligence reports and media dissemination of false information.

2. Threats to Public Health Institutions: RFK Jr.'s restructuring of the CDC's vaccine advisory committee introduces significant risks due to the inclusion of anti-vaccine activists, potentially reversing decades of public health progress.

3. Erosion of Trust in Expertise: The episode highlights a critical decline in public trust in scientific and medical expertise, driven by political interference and the spread of misinformation.

4. Long-Term Health Risks: The undermining of vaccine programs and public health recommendations threatens to increase the prevalence of preventable diseases, endangering vulnerable populations.

5. Call for Patience and Evidence-Based Decision Making: Experts emphasize the importance of waiting for accurate information and relying on scientific evidence to guide public health policies, especially in times of crisis.

---

This summary encapsulates the primary discussions and insights from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Brooke Gladstone]

Hi, it's Brooke. I'm just going to take a second to remind you that you're listening to public radio and you are our public we've always relied on, especially now as we scramble to make sense of the news. And you, well, you are, too. You all know that on the Media is produced by WNYC and the station's fiscal year ends on June 30th. So right now on the Media is also planning for the year ahead. But with all that's happened in the last 12 months, it would be nuts to think that we could predict what's going to happen in the next. We only know that we'll be here and we're counting on you to be there for us as you always have. If we've helped you in the inescapably hard work of sorting through all the shiny objects, could you contribute however much you can comfortably manage to help us keep on keeping on? Just mosey over to onthemedia.org donate thanks.

[Michael Olinger]

It was very, very successful. It was called obliteration.

[Brooke Gladstone]

After dropping bombs on Iran, President Trump is fighting to control the narrative. From WNYC in New York, this is ON THE media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Paul Offit]

And I'm Michael Olinger. Richard Robert F. Kennedy's revamped vaccine advisory committee met for the first time this week and they're making changes. CDC's immunization panel voted 5 to 1 today to recommend against flu vaccines containing thimerosal.

[Brooke Gladstone]

It's the first step in RFK Jr. S project to reshape public health in accordance with his own singular views and priorities.

[Michael Olinger]

He doesn't believe in the germ theory. He doesn't believe that the treatment or prevention of germs will be life saving. He's talking about taking red dye out of Skittles and destroying vaccine programs. That's not making us healthy.

[Paul Offit]

It's all coming up after this.

[Ira Flatow]

OnTheMedia is supported by Dell. Introducing the new Dell AI PC. Powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor, it helps do your busy work for you so you can fast forward through editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, summarizing meeting notes, finding files, managing your schedule, responding to your co workers, long emails, leaving all the time in the world for the things you actually want to do. Get A new Dell AI PC starting at $749.99 at Dell.com AIPC how those ahead? Stay ahead.

[Brooke Gladstone]

From WNYC in New York, this is ON THE media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Paul Offit]

And I'm Michael Ohinger. There is some Cautious optimism in the Middle east as the fragile Iran Israel ceasefire seems to be holding right now. After bombing each other for 12 days, including an attack by the United States on Iranian nuclear sites and a telegraphed.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Iranian response, a ceasefire was announced by President Donald Trump.

[Paul Offit]

The US Joined the fray last weekend naming its air assault on Iranian nuclear facilities Operation Midnight Hammer. And in the days since that, there's been an all out war over words and narratives waged against the press and the American intelligence community. The United States has bombed Iran's main nuclear facilities in what Donald Trump hailed as a very successful attack. Before the dust had settled, perhaps literally, the the President and his allies had begun their victory lap. Trump fired off an opening salvo with a post on Truth Social featuring the words Fordo is gone. Sean Hannity of Fox News shared a social media post with that same phrase to his some 6 million followers along with a video of a large explosion. But that clip, as the BBC and Wired quickly deduced, was actually from Syria in 2024. The bogus video was viewed some 5 million times before Hannity deleted it.

[Michael Olinger]

It was very, very successful. It was called obliteration.

[Paul Offit]

The President speaking at a NATO summit on Wednesday.

[Michael Olinger]

We assessed that the American strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities has set back Iran's ability to develop nuclear weapons for many years to come.

[Paul Offit]

But some cracks in the official narrative began to emerge when CNN's Natasha Bertrand broke this story Wednesday. So this assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency, which is the Pentagon's intelligence arm, what we are told is that based on the assessments of the damage that these bombs implemented on these nuclear sites, that as of right now, it does not appear that they ended or obliterated Iran's nuclear program. Instead, they only set it back by months. Short on evidence to disprove it, the President and his buddies at Fox reached for their usual ad hominem jabs and misdirection. The same people who were saying the bunker busters didn't blow up are the ones who said Trump was a Russian agent. Jesse Waters Trump says Natasha Berntrand should be fired and thrown out of the building like a dog. President Trump is accusing Democrats of leaking that low confidence intelligence report regarding the.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Damage done to Iran's nuclear facilities.

[Michael Olinger]

The President posted on Truth Social they.

[Paul Offit]

Should all be prosecuted. And then later that day, new intel entered the chat from the top dog at the CIA.

[Michael Olinger]

Let me start with this new assessment from the CIA Director John Radcliffe, who now says evidence shows Iran's nuclear program was severely damaged.

[Paul Offit]

So the DIA and the CIA appear to disagree on the facts. And it could be weeks till we get a fuller picture as the Pentagon gathers more information and shares it with the press. Still, there are other important questions about the strike yet to be nailed down, like whether a significant target of the attacks, Iran's enriched uranium supply, was even in these bombed sites. As Jeffrey Lewis, a professor at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies at Monterey, told npr, satellite images taken in the days leading up to the strikes indicate that Tehran may have outmaneuvered the American bunker bombers. One of the really interesting things I see is that the Iranians had time to bring trucks to the facility, which I presume allowed them to shut things down and remove things, and then they buried the entrances to both facilities with dirt to protect them.

[Michael Olinger]

Do you have certainty that all the.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Highly enriched uranium was inside the 4.

[Ira Flatow]

Do mountain or some of it? Are you certain none of that highly enriched uranium was moved?

[Paul Offit]

Fox News reporter Jennifer Griffin questioning her former colleague, now Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Of course we're watching every single aspect.

[Michael Olinger]

But Jennifer, you've been about the worst.

[Paul Offit]

The one who misrepresents the most intentionally.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I take issue with that.

[Michael Olinger]

I appreciate you acknowledging her professionalism, her knowledge and her experience at the Pentagon is unmatched.

[Paul Offit]

Brit Hume, FOX chief political analyst, defending Griffin on Thursday and I have had.

[Michael Olinger]

And still have the greatest regard for her. The attack on her was unfair.

[Paul Offit]

In the same week that his favorite cable network was pushing back on his administration, the president was struggling to mediate between two nations poised to commit more violence. And it seemed like maybe the pressure was getting to him. That ceasefire nearly collapsed today, just hours after President Trump first announced the Israel Iran cease fire.

[Michael Olinger]

This morning, they exchanged fire again, prompting.

[Paul Offit]

The president to drop a rhetorical bomb as he vented frustration.

[Michael Olinger]

We basically have two countries that have been fighting so long and so hard that they don't know what the they're doing.

[Paul Offit]

But let's get back to the real American bombs. According to the New York Times, Trump had made the decision to join Israel's offensive last week in part after seeing how well it was quote, playing on Fox News, whose hosts and guests were practically salivating over the war. Right now, America's greatest ally in the Middle East, Israel, making the world a safer place. As brand new video shows Israeli forces striking more than 150 targets. The Iranian people want a regime change. And so I think that the main justification from the White House for targeting Iran in the first place was the imminent threat of a nuke.

[Michael Olinger]

I've been saying for 20 years maybe longer.

[Paul Offit]

That Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.

[Michael Olinger]

I've been saying it for a long time and I think they were a few weeks away from having one.

[Paul Offit]

Pundits on Fox, MSNBC and CNN echoed the President's words.

[Michael Olinger]

The United States bombed Iran's nuclear weapons.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Program, its nuclear weapons program. Is it totally obliterated or is it not?

[Paul Offit]

Is there any of this weapons program left at all? There's actually quite a bit of debate about whether there was a weapons program at all. Iran definitely has a nuclear program, ostensibly for civilian energy. Senator Mark Kelly on NPR this week.

[Michael Olinger]

They were not actually building a weapon.

[Paul Offit]

Our big concern was the amount of enriched uranium that they had, which was much more than what they needed for a civilian nuclear power. As CNN reported several days before the strikes, some American intelligence had conclud that Iran was not actively trying to build a nuke and was up to three years off from being able to produce one. PolitiFact has cited other estimates ranging from months to two years. This is what Trump's Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard said under oath in March. The IC continues to assess that Iran.

[Michael Olinger]

Is not building a nuclear weapon.

[Paul Offit]

And Supreme Leader Khamenei has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003. The IC continues to monitor closely if Tehran decides to reauthorize its nuclear weapons program. Iran's enriched uranium stockpile is at its highest levels and is unprecedented for a state without nuclear weapons. What intelligence do you have that Iran is building a nuclear weapon?

[Michael Olinger]

Your intelligence community has said they have.

[Paul Offit]

No evidence that they are at this point.

[Michael Olinger]

Well, then my intelligence community is wrong.

[Paul Offit]

Trump speaking with a reporter at his Bedminster Golf Club a day before Operation Midnight Hammer.

[Michael Olinger]

Who in the intelligence community said that?

[Paul Offit]

Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard.

[Michael Olinger]

She's wrong.

[Paul Offit]

Just guess what Tulsi Gabbard did this week. Tulsi Gabbard just tweeted. The dishonest media is intentionally taking my testimony out of context and spreading fake news as a way to manufacture division. America has intelligence that Iran is at the point that it can produce a nuclear weapon within weeks to months. To be clear, her testimony was taken nearly verbatim from a 30 page annual threat assessment, a written consensus from 18 agencies intended to help guide policymakers. Because, remember, Congress is authorized to declare war, not the White House. The kicker to all of this is that actually, according to a number of experts, bombing Iran could be the sort of aggression that makes Iran think twice. Senator Mark Kelly. This could be the moment that they make a decision to start building a bomb and further enriching that uranium. At time of recording, there is still a ceasefire. So let's take this moment to learn the lesson that we should have learned from the last time we preemptively attacked a Middle east state that our leaders claimed was housing weapons of mass destruction. Do not fall for the spin. Mr. Vice President, thank you for joining us. The big question Is the United States now at war with Iran?

[Michael Olinger]

No, we're not at war with Iran, John. We're at war with Iran's nuclear program.

[Paul Offit]

And I think the President took Wars are not waged against nuclear programs or militaries or terrorists or hostile nations. Wars are waged against people, civilians included. 28 people were killed across Israel during the course of the conflict, four of them yesterday, just before that ceasefire came.

[Ira Flatow]

Into force, the Iranian Ministry of Health.

[Paul Offit]

Said the number of people killed in.

[Michael Olinger]

The attacks by Israel is around 500.

[Paul Offit]

This Iranian official said these casualties included.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Women, children, scientists, students, musicians.

[Paul Offit]

So often our advice on this show is to wait until good information emerges. In times of war, especially, this administration will inject its predictable venom. For the press and for the rest of us, the best antidote is patience.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Coming up, taking your eye off of HHS may be hazardous to your health.

[Paul Offit]

This is on the Media.

[Ira Flatow]

On the Media is supported by Dell. Introducing the new Dell AI PC powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor. It's not just an AI computer, it's a computer built for AI. That means it's built to help do your busy work for you. So you can fast forward through editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, running lots of apps without lag, creating live translations and captions, summarizing meeting notes, extending battery life, enhancing security, finding that file you are looking for, managing your schedule, meeting your deadlines, responding to your co workers long emails, leaving all the time in the world for more you time and for the things you actually want to do. Get A new Dell AI PC starting at $749.99 at Dell.com AI PC how those ahead Stay ahead on the media.

[Paul Offit]

Supported by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this PODC today. Smart Choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy.

[Ira Flatow]

OnTheMedia is supported by Smalls Cat Food. Is your cat having digestive issues or simply in need of a diet upgrade? Smalls Cat food is full of protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge and is delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends. A few short years later, they've served millions of meals to cats across the US and teamed up with the Humane World for Animals. The team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat won't eat their food. What are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve. For a limited time only, you can get 60% off your first smalls order plus shipping by using code OTM. That's 60% off when you head to smalls.com and use promo code OTM.

[Paul Offit]

One of the best parts for me about hosting Reveal. You know your favorite weekly investigative podcasts is the interviews. I love to sit down with people and try to gain a perspective that gives me and our listeners a new way of seeing the world. Which is why we're launching More to the Story with me, Al Ledson. It's a place where I can talk to some of the most intriguing people to bring some context to our changing world. Follow the Reveal podcast feed and look for More to the Story every Wednesday. This is on the media. I'm Michael Ohinger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. So a couple of weeks ago, Health.

[Paul Offit]

And Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Announced he is replacing the entire independent committee that advises the CDC on vaccine usage, claiming members had too many outside conflicts. He announced these eight new picks, most of whom are either allies of him or have clearly criticized COVID 19 vaccines and requirements and vaccine safety in the past that he also removed all of the career officials who sort of set the guardrails around this process, who set the agenda, who vet them, who planned the meetings. All those people are gone too.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This week, RFK Jr. S revamped vaccine advisory committee made its presence known.

[Paul Offit]

CDC's immunization panel voted 5 to 1 today to recommend against flu vaccines containing thimerosal.

[Michael Olinger]

Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative used in multi dose vials to prevent contamination.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Though some anti vaccine advocates continue to spread misinformation that there's a link between.

[Paul Offit]

The preservative and autism, it's just not true. The panel's decision came after one presentation, not by the usual CDC process where, you know, the staff of the CDC convene all these experts to really vet the evidence and come to a conclusion about what the impact and need for certain changes in the recommendations are. But instead it was a presentation by Lynn Redwood. She's the former head of Children's Health Defense. That's a group that a lot of folks have criticized as anti vaccine and that Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is the founder of. She is concerned and she aired a lot of those debunked concerns about thimerosal at today's vaccine meeting.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Lynn Redwood believes childhood vaccines containing thimerosal led to her son's autism. Reportedly, RFK Jr. Is hiring her to work in the CDC's vaccine safety office. No surprise there. When he took office back in February as Secretary of Health and Human Services, which leads the National Institute, Institutes of Health, the Food and Drug Administration and the center for Disease Control, he said.

[Michael Olinger]

This there's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. Vaccines are inherently unsafe. You cannot make them safe.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But don't worry. According to the White House's MAHA report published in May, you can rest assured that this administration will be investigating the effects of fluoride and cell phones, which it claims has lowered our collective IQs and sperm counts respectively. At a congressional meeting this week, he also said that portable sensors and monitors are really what'll keep us in the pink.

[Michael Olinger]

My vision is that every American is wearing a wearable within four years.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But will they be the greatest life saving intervention in the history of modern medicine? Well, not according to leading medical experts. That would be vaccines. This week, Kennedy's restaffed CDC Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, or acip, met for the first time. The number of vaccines that our children and adolescents receive today exceeds what children.

[Paul Offit]

In most other developed nations receive and.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What most of us in this room.

[Paul Offit]

Receive when we are children.

[Brooke Gladstone]

New chair Martin Koldorff. On Wednesday we will be establishing a work group that will look at the cumulative childhood vaccine schedule as well as the adolescent. Dr. Paul Offit is the director of the Vaccine Education center and a physician in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. He's also co inventor of the rotavirus vaccine. He served on acip, that vaccine advisory committee. What's it actually do?

[Michael Olinger]

So if a company, for example, has a vaccine they think is safe and effective, they submit it to the fda. The fda, if they agree, will license it now can be sold. But it's really the CDC and specifically the Advisory Committee for Immunization practices or ACIP that recommends it. Insurance companies won't cover a vaccine until the ACIP says, okay, here's who should get it.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So let's consider the COVID vaccine for pregnant women. ACIP recommended it before RFK Jr stood up. In a video on X, he says.

[Michael Olinger]

I couldn't be more pleased to announce that as of today, the COVID vaccine for healthy children and healthy pregnant women has been removed from the CDC recommended immunization schedule. We're now one step closer to realizing President Trump's promise to make America healthy again.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And then it dropped off the immunization schedule.

[Michael Olinger]

Right? So we know that women who are infected with COVID and pregnant are one and a half to two times more likely to be hospitalized, to require intensive of care, unit admission and ventilation and die than women of the same age who have Covid who aren't pregnant. That's why the World Health Organization recommends it. That's why every country in this world recommends that vaccine for pregnant people. And it's why the CDC recommended it. Robert F. Kennedy Jr unilaterally and behind closed doors simply made a decision that he didn't want to recommend this vaccine for pregnant people. So it dropped off the immunization schedule. Now the question is, will insurance companies cover it? Will physicians or pharmacists feel that they are exposed to some liability if they give a vaccine which is not recommended? It certainly does nothing to make America healthy again. All it does is put pregnant women at unnecessary risk.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Well, how did RFK Jr justify it?

[Michael Olinger]

He wrote a letter to Congress, so called frequently asked questions letter. And he said that, look, here's all this evidence that pregnant people, when they get a COVID vaccine, are more likely to have miscarriage, more likely to have placental blood clots. And if you looked actually at the papers that he referenced, they said exactly the opposite. Those papers showed that pregnant people who receive a vaccine are not more likely to have a miscarriage, not more likely to have preterm labor, not more likely to have placental blood clots. It was all exactly the opposite of what he had said in that memo that he sent to members of Congress. I assume he counted on the fact that no one in Congress would actually read the papers. It was that cynical and frankly, dishonest.

[Brooke Gladstone]

A couple of weeks ago, he published an op ed in the Wall Street Journal under the headline HHS moves to Restore Public Trust in Vaccines, where he announced that he was retir, which is to say firing all 17 members of a SIP. You are on that committee from 1998 to 2003. What do you make of his claim? That, quote, most of ACIP's members have received substantial funding from pharmaceutical companies, including those marketing vaccines.

[Michael Olinger]

To be on the acip, you have to declare any potential conflict of interest. So for example, if you're part of a data safety monitoring board for a company on a vaccine, you have to declare that. And you wouldn't be allowed to vote on that product nor any product that that company made. No one has a conflict of interest that would in any way influence their vote. So he completely made it up. It was a bogus claim. And what he should do is he should list each of those 17 members of the ACIP and say specifically what it is that they're being fired for. He didn't do that because he couldn't do that because he didn't have a leg to stand on regarding his false allegations.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So at Kennedy's confirmation hearing for the job, he now has Republican Senator William Cassidy, a doctor. He expressed clear concern in his questioning of the nominee.

[Michael Olinger]

Fear of autism is a major driver for vaccine hesitancy among those with a college education or higher. Influenced by Internet social media narratives over physician based vaccine information. There's a lot of people that look.

[Paul Offit]

To you for do I get vaccinated or not? I'm a doc.

[Michael Olinger]

Convince me that you will become the public health advocate, the influencer for people.

[Paul Offit]

To believe, no, there's 1.25 million kids.

[Michael Olinger]

Studied and there's no autism associated with measles.

[Brooke Gladstone]

He ultimately cast a key vote for Kennedy after having received this assurance.

[Michael Olinger]

It confirmed he will maintain the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommendations without changes. He immediately broke that promise. He stood up and said, I'm changing the recommendation for pregnant people. I'm no longer recommending they get a COVID vaccine. I'm changing the recommendation for young children. I'm no longer recommending they get a vaccine. He went on to say that he had agreed, according to Senator William Cassidy from Louisiana, that he wouldn't alter these committees and then proceeded to fire 17 members on a committee and stack that committee with people who were like minded to him, which is to say had an anti vaccine bent or an anti science.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So could you run through some of the new members of the acip, who they are, what they believe and want. To start with Vicki Pebsworth.

[Michael Olinger]

Vicki Pebsworth is a member of the National Vaccine Information center, which is an anti vaccine group. She has for decades been lobbying states to eliminate School entry requirements for vaccines. So she's a well known anti vaccine activist.

[Brooke Gladstone]

How about Dr. Robert Malone? He went on Joe Rogan's podcast in February of 2022. He said this stuff about the COVID vaccine.

[Paul Offit]

Our government is out of control. These mandates of an experimental vaccine are explicitly illegal.

[Michael Olinger]

They are explicitly inconsistent with the Nuremberg.

[Paul Offit]

Code, they're explicitly inconsistent with the Belmont Report. They are flat out illegal and they don't care. Hopefully we're going to be able to stop them before they take our kids.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The interview was at the center of that controversy when a handful of big name artists, Neil Young was among them, left Spotify in protest of the streaming service continuing to carry the Joe Rogan experience. What has Malone been saying recently?

[Michael Olinger]

Robert Malone is an MD who's also a scientist in the late 1980s published papers in an excellent journal called the Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences looking at MRNA and predicted accurately that MRNA could be used as a drug, MRNA could be used as a vaccine. And then something happened to Robert Malone. I don't know what it was, but he now puts out information that's clearly wrong. He testified in front of Congress that the MRNA Covid vaccines caused cancer, caused heart attacks, caused autoimmune disease. All of which is clearly untrue. Anyone who listened to him, either in that congressional hearing or on Joe Rogan's show, would be misled to make a bad decision for themselves or their child. There's no question that he is an anti vaccine activist who now is on the advisory committee for Immunization practices and will be giving advice to this country about what vaccines they should or shouldn't get.

[Brooke Gladstone]

How about the Swedish biostatistician Martin Koldorff?

[Michael Olinger]

Like Robert Malone, Martin Korf has testified as an expert witness on behalf of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S lawsuits against Merck, specifically in the case of Kaldorf, his lawsuit against the human papillomavirus vaccine Gardasil. He was a principal author of the Great Barrington Declaration which said we should just let this virus run wild. After natural immunity, we'll be much better off, thus putting people in harm's way.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Unnecessarily and how about Retsef Levy? He's a new face on the panel. He's part of an Israeli anti vax group and he has a pinned video on X where he says, I'm filming this video to share my strong conviction.

[Paul Offit]

That at this point in time all Covid MRNA vaccination program should stop immediately because they completely failed to fulfill any of their advertised promise regarding Efficacy, and.

[Brooke Gladstone]

More importantly, they should stop because of.

[Paul Offit]

The mounting and indisputable evidence that they cause unprecedented level of harm, including the.

[Michael Olinger]

Death of young people and children.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Where did he get that from?

[Michael Olinger]

Not from any good data. What's amazing to me is if you'd asked me at the beginning of this pandemic, how did I think vaccines would be viewed, I would imagine they would have been viewed as what they are, which is lifesavers. I mean, here's a virus that came into this country in early 2020. We isolated it, sequenced it. Within 11 months, we did two large prospective placebo controlled trials, 40,000 people for Pfizer, 30,000 people for Moderna, to show that the vaccine was safe and effective. Then within the next seven months, we distributed it to 70% of the U.S. population, a remarkable achievement and no doubt saved about 3 million lives. And at least 250,000 people who chose not to get this vaccine chose to end their life. I think, frankly, it is the greatest scientific or medical achievement that has occurred in my lifetime, and my lifetime includes the development of the polio vaccine. We, somewhere in 2021 created this enormous backlash against vaccines that allow people like Martin Kaldorf to make the kind of misstatements he makes about vaccines. He published a paper that was methodologically, horribly flawed, claiming that it basically caused heart deaths in young people. And that's still out there. This notion that this vaccine killed healthy young athletes is just wrong. And he is the Executive director, head of the acip.

[Brooke Gladstone]

When you have someone talking about a vaccine killing children, causing sudden heart attacks, no wonder people are scared.

[Michael Olinger]

It's a shame because people are still at risk. People are still getting hospitalized and dying from this virus. This virus isn't going anywhere. It's going to be with us for decades, if not centuries. And right now, because there's so much misinformation and disinformation out there, we're putting people in harm's way. The irony of all this is this group of people who have specifically been putting this in harm's way will now be making recommendations. The anti vaccine activists have been around for decades, if not arguably centuries, since the first vaccine, the Smallpox vaccine, and they have been shouting from the sidelines. Now, with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. As Secretary of Health and Human Services, they are making policy and he might use.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program to cash in. This is a program that was created to let the government compensate people who can make a claim that they were injured by a vaccine, rather than putting undue pressure on Manufacturers.

[Michael Olinger]

If you really want to destroy vaccine programs in this country, all you have to do is mess around with the vaccine injury compensation program. Because in the early 1980s there was this false notion that the whooping cough or pertussis vaccine caused permanent brain damage. Subsequent studies showed that that wasn't true. That while the pertussis vaccine could cause FE and could cause even febrile seizures, short term seizures that never caused permanent harm. Studies showed that. But it led to a flood of litigation. In 1980, there were 18 companies that made vaccines. By the end of that decade there were four because they were all driven off the market by litigation. Now the Reagan administration stepped in in 1986, created the National Childhood Vaccine Injury act, which included the vaccine injury compensation program, which at least stopped the bleeding. But mess around with that program, which is what RFK Jr. I think is about to do, he just hired a law firm firm from Arizona that had an expertise in the vaccine injury compensation program. All you have to do is just add things to the list of compensable injuries, even if they aren't actual injuries caused by the vaccine or worse. Take certain vaccines out of that protection of the vaccine injury compensation program, put them in front of the slings and arrows of outrageous civil litigation and you will drive them out of the business. Because it's a fragile market. Vaccines are something you give once or a few times in your lifetime. They are never gonna compete with drugs like lipid lowering agents or neurological drugs or psychiatric drug. And so make it onerous enough for these companies to make vaccines and they'll leave the business.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So pharmaceutical companies really don't see vaccines as a cash cow. You are a doctor who created a vaccine. It was licensed for use back in 2006. Did you make a bundle?

[Michael Olinger]

First of all, myself and Stanley Plakin and Fred Clark are the three co inventors of this vaccine, the so called Rotatec vaccine, which has pretty Much eliminated since 2006 the 70,000 hospitalizations caused by severe dehydration from that virus every year and is estimated to save about 165,000 lives every year in the developing world. That was the reward. And although Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Has accused me of voting myself rich when I was on the acip, it should be noted that I was off the ACIP for three years by the time that vaccine came up for a vote. And although I am a co patent holder on that vaccine, I worked at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and therefore am their intellectual property. So. So they own the patent, not me.

[Brooke Gladstone]

But how would Kennedy get rich. Cuz he's a lawyer.

[Michael Olinger]

He would get rich from suing. That's what he's been doing the last two years. He made $2.5 million whilst trying to sue Merck for a Gardasil. And he does it with his personal injury lawyer friends like the law firm of Whisner Baum. And to Elizabeth Warren's credit, if you actually watch her sort of four or five minute questioning of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. She said, you could do this.

[Paul Offit]

You can publish your anti vaccine conspiracies, but this time on U.S. government letterhead. You could tell the CDC vaccine panel to remove a particular vaccine from the vaccine schedule. You could remove vaccines from special compensation programs which would open up manufacturers to mass torts. You could make more injuries eligible for compensation even if there is no causal evidence. You could change vaccine court processes to.

[Michael Olinger]

Make it easier to bring junk lawsuits.

[Paul Offit]

There's a lot of ways that you can influence those future lawsuits and pending.

[Michael Olinger]

Lawsuits while you are secretary of HHS.

[Paul Offit]

And I'm asking you to commit right now that you will not take a.

[Michael Olinger]

Financial stake in every one of those lawsuits so that what you do as secretary will also benefit you financially down the line.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Kennedy's new ACIP had its first meeting this week and on the agenda was something that may not mean a lot to laypeople, but it means a lot to those people in the vaccine skeptic community. It was a presentation regarding thimerosal in vaccines blamed for causing autism. Right?

[Michael Olinger]

Right. So I was on the ACIP from 1998 to 2003. This was considered then we were adding more and more vaccines to the vaccine schedule as some of those vaccines contained the ethylmercury preservative thimerosal. There was a concern that children were being exposed to too much mercury and that that might cause Horm. Now there were a number of studies that were done at the time to show that the mercury contained in vaccines did not add in any appreciable way to the amount of mercury that you normally have in your bloodstream. Because we live on this planet. And anything made from water on this planet, including breast milk and infant formula and anything made from water contains methylmercury and that has a much longer half life than ethylmercury, which is what's in thimerosal. So you knew that it didn't contribute in any important way to what you already were exposed to to. You already had studies that were done at that time because Western Europe took thimerosal out of Vaccines. In the early 90s, there were Canadian provinces that used thimerosal containing vaccines right next to Canadian provinces that used the same vaccines that didn't contain thimerosal. And you saw that there was no difference in neurodevelopmental outcomes, including autism. Ironically, the instance of autism at that time was 1 in 150. Thimerosal was taken out of vaccines by 2001 for young children today, the instance of autism is 1 in 32. So the instance of autism since removing thimerosal from vaccines has increased dramatically.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Why the rise in autism? I read it was because of the way it's been reclassified in the dsm.

[Michael Olinger]

I think that's probably the most important thing, which is that the definition has been broadened from sort of more profound autism to autism spectrum disorder. I think there are also better diagnostic tools. I think there's increased recognition of that disorder, hence the increase. But I think it certainly has nothing to do with vaccines.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So flu vaccines were reduced from multi dose vials to single doses in response to this fear over thimerosal.

[Michael Olinger]

That's exactly right. By going from multi dose vials to single dose vials, that became an issue of storage because it's easier to store a multi dose vial. It also became an issue of expense. So the vaccines therefore became less available and more expensive. And for the developing world it was really trapped because that increase in price really affected them more than anyone else. But there was a child who died of hepatitis B because the mother was so scared of thimerosal that she refused to give the vaccine. And so thimerosal was taken out of vaccines as quote, the precautionary principle. But the precautionary principle, which is exercising an abundance of caution, assumes no harm. But we did do harm. Two anti vaccine groups were created by that episode. Generation Rescue or Moms Against Mercury were created because any reasonable person looking at what the CDC did at that time, which was precipitously taking thimerosal out of vaccines, could reasonably say, well, they wouldn't have done it unless it was harmful, but it wasn't harmful. I think probably the best quote at the time, because it was the most ironic, came from the American Academy of Pediatrics which stated, all the evidence to date shows that thimerosal at the level contained in vaccines is safe. But to make safe vaccines even safer, we're gonna ask companies to take it out. Well, if it's safe, taking it out doesn't make it safer. All it does is make it perceived to be Safer, which is a very different.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Although if it enables people to take it more readily, I guess that's a benefit.

[Michael Olinger]

I would argue the opposite was true, Brooke, because we scared people about vaccines. I mean, the sense was, you know, these people don't know what they're doing. They're putting it in, they're taking it out. If anything, we lessen vaccines uptake because we scared them about this harmless preservative. See, the problem is it's called ethylmercury. And mercury never sounds good. It's not like there's, you know, the national center for the Appreciation of Heavy Metals standing up in defense of mercury. Mercury.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Kennedy edited a book about thimerosal, didn't he? It was called Let the Science Speak.

[Michael Olinger]

In which the science didn't get a chance to speak. That's right.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What else is on the ACIP agenda besides reviewing thimerosal and flu vaccines? Aren't RSV vaccines both for adults and kids on that docket?

[Michael Olinger]

Right. So respiratory syncytial virus is a respiratory virus that in young babies causes bronchiolitis, which is inflammation of the small breathing tubes in the lung. It's actually the most common reason for a baby to come into the hospital, typically children less than three months of age. So because very young children get this virus and occasionally are admitted to the hospital, so much so that we have 60,000 to 80,000 hospitalizations a year and 100 to 300 deaths a year, we have a vaccine for pregnant mothers. So then they develop an immune response. They passively transfer through the placenta, the antibodies which will protect that child in the first six months of life. There's another vaccine that's given to babies in the first few days of life called nirsevimab, that is a long acting monoclonal antibody that also protects against respiratory syncytial virus. So what's interesting is that the CDC published data recently looking at the effect of this, because it's really just in the past year, 2024 to 2025, that we've had those two products. So they compared. How are we doing? Are we decreasing hospitalizations in babies as compared to say, pre pandemic 2018-2020? And the answer was yes, there' than a 50% decrease in little babies getting admitted to the hospital. In fact, it actually decreased the infant mortality rate. It was that impactful. So what are they doing? Are they gonna prefer the maternal vaccine versus the monoclonal antibody or vice versa? I don't know. That's the problem. There's such chaos now, but at least.

[Brooke Gladstone]

The data is there, right?

[Michael Olinger]

Right. But I have a friend in the Respiratory Diseases Branch who told me specifically that HHS, that is Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Told the respiratory Diseases branch not to do what they would normally do. When you would get data normally, what you would do is you would embargo the study for a day. You would send out talking points to a variety of media outlets. You would give those media outlets a chance to interview the authors or to talk to people at the CDC before the paper was released. And then that would create more impact for the paper. They were told not to do that at all, to essentially suppress that information. And in many ways that's what worries me the most. Although this committee worries me, many in the medical and scientific community will not trust them. There are other committees. I mean the American Academy of Pediatrics, for example, has its Committee of Infectious Diseases which is composed of experts which also gives recommendations who have been talking to insurance companies. So that doesn't worry me as much. What worries me more is whether the data that you're getting from the CDC will be manipulated or suppressed. There's an old W.H. auden quote which is, when all the mass and majesty of this world, when all they carried with weight and always weighed the same, lay in the hands of others. They were small and could not hope for help and no help came. And that's what I feel like this is. We're at a time when people declare their own truths, including scientific truths. Normally we rely on good scientific evidence to make decisions. And now you're having people, specifically Lynn Redwood from Safe Minds, which is an anti vaccine group, present about thimerosal. At point this meeting, a virulent anti vaccine activist. Everything that used to matter doesn't seem to matter anymore.

[Paul Offit]

Coming up, how all this is likely to play out.

[Brooke Gladstone]

This is on the media.

[Ira Flatow]

OnTheMedia is supported by Dell. Introducing the new Dell AI PC powered by the Intel Core Ultra processor. It's not just an AI computer computer, it's a computer built for AI. That means it's built to help do your busy work for you. So you can fast forward through editing images, designing presentations, generating code, debugging code, running lots of apps without lag, creating live translations and captions, summarizing meeting notes, extending battery life, enhancing security, finding that file you are looking for, managing your schedule, meeting your deadlines, responding to your co workers, long emails, leaving all the time in the world for more you time and for the things you actually want to do. Get a new Dell AI PC starting at $749.99 at Dell.com AI PC how those ahead stay ahead OnTheMedia is supported by Smalls Cat Food. Is your cat having digestive issues or simply in need of a diet upgrade? Smalls Cat Food is full of protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge and is delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends. A few short years later, they've served millions of meals to cats across the US and teamed up with the Humane World for Animals. The team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk free. That means they will refund you if your cat won't eat their food. Food. What are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve. For a limited time only, you can get 60% off your first smalls order plus shipping by using code OTM. That's 60% off when you head to smalls.com and use promo code OTM.

[Paul Offit]

One of the best parts for me about hosting Reveal. You know your favorite weekly investigative podcast is the interviews. I love to sit down with people and try to gain a perspective that gives me and our listeners a new way of seeing the world. Which is why we're launching More to the Story with me, Al Ledson. It's a place where I can talk to some of the most intriguing people to bring some context to our changing world. Follow the Reveal Podcast feed and look for More to the Story every Wednesday. This is ON the media. I'm Michael Ohinger.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And I'm Brooke Gladstone. And I'm talking with Paul Offit, a physician at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, about how Secretary of Health and Human Services RFK Jr. Has taken a wrecking ball to the CDC's Vaccine Advisory Committee ACIP. The MAHA crowd has been disseminating lots of messages trying to get most of us to, you know, ignore the lying media and buy in like this video posted by Maha influencer nurse Kate Johnson in March.

[Paul Offit]

There has been unrelenting presenting very fear mongering coverage of the couple hundred cases of measles that was diagnosed over the past few weeks. And what you need to keep in mind when you see these headlines is that Big Pharma spends a ton of money to have the influence over the media companies to get narratives written in a very specific way under the new HHS Secretary RFK Jr. They're going to be looking at repealing immunity for these companies, which is going to be a very big deal for them. So they're trying to get out in front and create a lot of fear in the population to make people scared.

[Brooke Gladstone]

And in the caption she wrote, one measles death in 10 years. 100,000 deaths from diabetes per year. That seems a bit of a non sequitur, but I think this touches on a lot of the big narratives right now around vaccine skepticism. What do you think about the claim that the measles outbreak has been overblown by the measles?

[Michael Olinger]

I think it's been underblown by the media. I mean, really, if you look at the CDC website today, it'll say that there are roughly 1200 cases of measles that have occurred over the past year. In truth, if you talk to people on the ground, people in health departments, they think that number is at least 3,000 cases. In probably 5,000 cases. You know that three people have died from measles. You also know that that equals the total number of deaths from measles in this country over the last 25 years. You know the two young children, 6 and 8 year old healthy little girls in West Texas died from measles. You know that we haven't seen a measles death in a child in this country since 2003. That's more than 20 years ago. This isn't overblown at all. What you would like to see in some ways is the story of those two children who died unnecessarily of measles. What did that feel like? We need to make this come Alive. And were RFK Jr. An actual secretary of Health and Human Services who cared about the health and well being of children in this country, he would stand up and loudly and clearly proclaim, vaccinate your children. It is unconscionable that two healthy children just died from a vaccine preventable disease in the United States of America.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I feel like what's happening in public health right now is kind of getting swallowed up in all the other crises on the front page. What is the risk of not really understanding or paying attention to what Kennedy's up to?

[Michael Olinger]

I think that what will happen over time is that he will destroy vaccine programs bit by bit. It's already happening. He's like the velociraptor in Jurassic park, sort of testing where the weaknesses in the fence are. And for all his talk about decreasing obesity in this country, and we do need to decrease obesity in this country. We are more obese than other countries and as a consequence we have higher rates of hypertension, high blood pressure, higher rates of type 2 diabetes, all triggers. I don't hear anything about that from him. He's talking about taking red dye out of Skittles and destroying vaccine programs. That's not making us healthy. I don't think people realize how far out there he is. If you read his book, the Real Anthony Fauci, what you'll find on pages 285 to 288 is he doesn't believe in the germ theory. He doesn't believe that specific germs cause specific diseases like viruses or bacteria and that therefore the treatment or prevention of those germs will matter or will be life saving. That's who he is. It's really that crazy.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So you say these Maha narratives seem to be having sway on many sectors of the public nevertheless. And it's certainly having sway we see on the government generally promoting things like healthy eating and exercise as public health solutions, but encouraging skepticism of medical and scientific institutions. What does all this tell us about the overall state of the public perception of expertise in general?

[Michael Olinger]

I think it's a dangerous time. What should worry people is that someone like Fiona havers at the CDC recently quit. Fiona Havers is a 13 year veteran at the CDC. She presented to the ACIP in April what the impact of COVID was in the United States over the past year year in children. What she found was that there were about 7,000 children hospitalized with COVID that 1 in 5 of those children was sent to the intensive care unit, that 152 children died of COVID that about half were previously healthy and that virtually all were unvaccinated. Now the impact of that presentation should have been that the CDC once again underlined how important it was for children to get a primary vaccine. I'm not talking about about yearly vaccines, a primary vaccine. And the opposite happened. RFK Jr stood up on that one minute video presentation on X and said we are no longer recommending the COVID vaccine for healthy young children, which was the opposite of what one would conclude from those data. And so she quit. And she said, I am worried about the way that data are being handled by the cdc. I am worried that American children now are at greater risk of vaccine, preventable disease, diseases that should worry people.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Did the experts, the CDC alienate people during the pandemic? Is that part of this?

[Michael Olinger]

Yes, I think it is. Experts in the public health system in general I think what happened in 2020 when we didn't have anything and we were dealing with a virus that was killing hundreds or thousands of people a day, and that could be spread asymptomatically as we shuttered schools and we closed businesses and we restricted travel and we isolated and masked and quarantined and social distance because we didn't have vaccines till the end of the year, I think that was seen as massive government overreach, especially the shuttering of schools, especially for children who were sort of in high risk. And then the following year when we had a vaccine by early 2021, you couldn't go anywhere without your vaccine card. You couldn't go to your favorite bar or restaurant or sporting event or place of worship and you could have been fired from your job. And again, that was seen as massive intrusion in my quote unquote medical. I think that we leaned into this libertarian left hook and I think we're feeling the punch of that hook now.

[Brooke Gladstone]

What do you mean we leaned into the libertarian left hook?

[Michael Olinger]

I think there is a tension between public health and individual rights and freedoms. Public health does consider that you have to care about your neighbor. If you're just saying, I want to do what I want to do and the hell with my neighbor, that is an anti public health stance. There was one moment actually in California in 2014 that sort of signified this to me. There was a measles epidemic that started in Southern California, spread to 25 states, involved a few hundred people. And so the state senator named Richard Pan, who was a pediatrician by training, actually wanted to eliminate the philosophical exemption for vaccination in that state, a state that didn't have a religious exemption. So therefore he would have eliminated all non medical exemptions. It was a fight to do that. Certainly the anti vaccine people were up in arms, but there was a little boy, a little seven year old boy who spoke at those meetings where the anti vaccine people were out there there screaming. He had to stand on a chair so he could reach the microphone and.

[Paul Offit]

He said, my name is Rhett Crowett. Leukemia is cancer in my blood.

[Brooke Gladstone]

For three and a half years, I.

[Paul Offit]

Took chemo to get the bad guys out.

[Michael Olinger]

I can't be vaccinated. I depend on you to protect me. Don't I count? To me, he was the voice of society.

[Brooke Gladstone]

So. So if you look at Trump's appointments across hhs, there are all these people who came to prominence as Covid skeptics. Of course, devaluing expertise seems to be part of his project. Actually if you consider his appointments across all of his agencies. But the impact seems to be especially onerous in this case.

[Michael Olinger]

I agree. Marty McCary, who's head of the FDA, said that the government was high, hiding the fact that the MRNA Covid vaccines were a rare cause of myocarditis when they didn't hide that at all. I mean, I was on the FDA Vaccine advisory Committee. The minute those data became available, they were disseminated widely. So I don't know what he's talking about. People have asked me the question, do I think Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Will cause distrust in public health? I think the answer is no. I think that he was brought in because he distrusts public health. He has disdain for the agency he's had. He has disdain for the fda, the nih, National Institutes of Health, the cdc. That's why he's there. He represents our disdain for the federal government and we will suffer this.

[Brooke Gladstone]

I guess there's an important lesson to be learned here then, from COVID and how science communication could improve.

[Michael Olinger]

Yes. I think we need to explain what we're doing and why we're doing it. I think we can't assume that people understand. And if we make a broad recommendation that involves a lot of groups, we need to make it clear why each of those groups do need to be vaccinated and include the public in that decision making. I think we underestimate what the public can handle. So, for example, I think very early on with the COVID vaccine, we should have obviously recommended initial vaccine for everyone. But in terms of yearly vaccine, it made more sense to target high risk groups. Pregnant people, people who are immunocompromised, people who are elderly, people who had high risk medical conditions. But you didn't have to give a yearly vaccine to everyone. And I think the reason that we did that was we thought that if we target high risk groups, which most other countries in this world did, it was a nuanced message. And a nuanced message would be seen as a garbled message. And I think we should have had more trust that the American public could understand all that. And also we needed to make it clear that when decisions were made, they were based on what you knew at the time.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Yeah. Like the requirements determined to wear masks. It turned out that these were droplets, not aerosols, that were spreading Covid. Right, right.

[Michael Olinger]

And we should have explained that it wasn't going to be 100% effective. We should have explained that when you got this vaccine, it was going to protect you against serious disease for A fairly long time. But it wasn't going to protect you against mild to moderate disease probably for more than six months. And moderate diseases not trivial. I mean, you could be home for a few days coughing with fever, chills, body aches, and that's not fun. And I think people were compelled to get the vaccine, mandated to get the vaccine, then they got the vaccine, then six months later, a year later got a moderate infection and thought, these people lied to me. They made me get this vaccine. I'm still sick.

[Brooke Gladstone]

You mentioned Fiona Havers, who very publicly resigned from the CDC in protest of the manipulation and suppression of data. Five CDC leaders left in March. I guess we can assume they won't be the last. So can we also assume that this brain drain will have an impact on medical research in the US that's already happened.

[Michael Olinger]

I mean, you've seen the administration, the Trump administration cancel grant after grant after grant, certainly all grants related to how we perceive vaccines, grants related to the human immunodeficiency virus vaccine, grants related to anything MRNA related regarding vaccines or even regarding cancer. So it's been this sort of attack on the research infrastructure. It's certainly any possible university has felt this and it's going to take us a long time to come back from this. We will come back from this, but we have to get through this period when frankly, there is an attack on public health in this country.

[Brooke Gladstone]

How are you feeling these days, Paul?

[Michael Olinger]

PAUL Pretty sad. I wake up every day sad that the things that I care about, which is the health and well being, particularly of children because I'm a pediatrician by training, is putting kids at risk. I mean, I have two grandchildren who are, you know, two and a half and nine months old. And I feel badly for, you know, at least their immediate future in terms of being able to protect themselves from diseases that should be easy to protect against.

[Brooke Gladstone]

They could still get the vaccines. They won't be covered by insurance. So again, it falls on the shoulders of the poor.

[Michael Olinger]

Always.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Thank you so much.

[Michael Olinger]

Thank you.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Paul Offit is the director of the Vaccine Education center and a physician in the Division of Infectious Diseases at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

[Paul Offit]

That's it for this week's show on the Media is produced by Molly Rosen, Rebecca Clark Callender and Candice Wong.

[Brooke Gladstone]

Our technical director is Jennifer Munson with engineering from Jared Paul. Eloise Blondio is our senior producer and our executive producer is Katya Rogers. On the Media is a production of WNYC Studios. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

[Paul Offit]

And I'm Michael Olinger.

[Michael Olinger]

I'm Ira Flato, host of Science Friday. For over 30 years, our team has been reporting high quality news about science, technology and medicine. News you won't get anywhere else. And now that political news is 24 7, our audience is turning to us to know about the really important stuff in their lives. Cancer, climate change, genetic engineering, childhood diseases. Our sponsors know the value of science and health news. For more sponsorship information, visit sponsorship.wnyc.org.