Podcast Summary: On the Media – "What's Wrong with True Crime?"
Host: Brooke Gladstone
Guest: John J. Lennon, writer, incarcerated at Sing Sing
Date: October 8, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode tackles the cultural phenomenon of true crime media—especially the new Netflix dramatization "Monster: The Ed Gein Story"—and interrogates the impacts of these narratives on the individuals involved and the public's view of crime and punishment. Guest John J. Lennon, journalist and author currently serving time for murder, shares how his experiences both as the subject of true crime and as a prison writer prompted his book The Tragedy of True: Four Guilty Men and the Stories that Define Us. Through deep and candid conversation, Lennon and Gladstone explore how true crime shapes, distorts, and sometimes commodifies the experiences of perpetrators, victims, and viewers.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The Allure and Proliferation of True Crime
- Netflix’s Monster series (Dahmer, Menendez, Ed Gein) underscores America’s obsession, with true crime dominating the platform’s most-watched content.
- A recent YouGov poll shows 57% of Americans consume true crime content; Lennon connects this cultural appetite with attitudes towards incarceration and punishment.
- “Many of these people going to sleep to murder, they wake up grateful for all the prisons. They're like, 'Woo, thank God them little lifes are in prison.'” —John J. Lennon [06:19]
Lennon’s Experience as a True Crime Subject
- Describes being featured on CNN’s “Inside Evil,” expecting a redemptive arc but encountering graphic reenactments of his crime.
- “Doing the interview, you have this idea in your head of how the interview went. And then watching the show almost a year later...it would cut to these reenactments of somebody playing me killing my friend and slow motion of the AR15, the bullets coming out of it. It was a lot to process because it was quite different from the context of the conversation I had.” —John J. Lennon [03:25]
- The experience led him to examine whose stories get told, how, and for whose benefit—fueling his motivation to write a more nuanced narrative.
Critique of TV True Crime
- Lennon distinguishes between exploitative TV true crime (e.g., Dateline, Netflix series) and the more introspective literary genre.
- “True crime is the antithesis of the notion that we're more than our crimes. It turns back the clock and replays the worst moments of someone's life, reconstructs, reenacts it all for entertainment, usually by exploiting the people most affected by the violence.” —Brooke Gladstone [06:35]
- Literary examples (Capote’s In Cold Blood, Carrère’s The Adversary) are cited as models seeking complexity and empathy.
Telling a Different Kind of Crime Story
- Lennon explains his narrative approach: meeting men in prison, exploring their backstories, and contextualizing their crimes without excusing them.
- “I do it as I meet them in prison instead of just like learning about them through their crime.” —John J. Lennon [08:37]
- He affirms the importance of accountability, context, and not skipping the harm done—contrasting with traditional “crime or punishment” binaries.
Case Studies from Lennon’s Book
Michael Shane Hale
- Abused as a child, struggled with identity and belonging; killed his lover and has since shown remorse and transformation within prison.
- “Shane was the kindest man I’ve ever met in prison...he used to sort of prep guys for getting out. ...That shows character.” —John J. Lennon [09:42]
- “Michael Shane Hale was remorseful from the gate. He killed somebody he loved. He killed somebody he resented.” —John J. Lennon [13:21]
Milton E. Jones
- Experienced mental health struggles (schizophrenia), ostracization, and a violent family background; as a young man, committed a double murder but has since taken accountability and sought higher education.
- “He was always accountable. From the door he held the hands of Ray, the younger brother of one of the priests that Milton killed in his life and looked into their eyes and apologized for what he did.” —John J. Lennon [13:42]
Robert Chambers (“Preppy Killer”)
- Media narratives dubbed him a murderer—though he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder.
- “People are fast and loose with calling people murderers... the jury couldn't convict Rob of murder.” —John J. Lennon [15:04]
- Life shaped by addiction, repeated media frenzy, and a struggle to find redemption or even self-forgiveness; Lennon offers a more empathetic, complex picture.
- “From one addict to another? I understood why he did heroin. Heroin is a big drug in prison. It helps you, like, not feel, feels the fear.” —John J. Lennon [16:32]
- On Chambers’ self-perception: “I guess at that point I felt maybe I'm the guy in the newspapers, maybe they're right, so just leave me alone, let me go back to prison, let me get high and die.” —Robert Chambers to Lennon [17:52, paraphrased by Gladstone]
Writing as Reckoning and Remorse
- Lennon describes his writing as a means to process guilt, understand himself, and mentor others—insisting that honesty is essential.
- “Before you tell the stories of others... you have to figure out yourself because there’s no other way to come to terms with that in here.” —John J. Lennon [19:49]
- Prison writing workshops encourage men to truly confront what they did, not just present sanitized narratives for outside consumption.
Media Stories & Identity
- Both host and guest consider how relentless and reductive media stories can trap people in their worst acts, complicating the struggle for rehabilitation or self-acceptance.
- “There’s not a happy ending to every story. That’s not what this book is. ...Some of us can’t put words to remorse.” —John J. Lennon [19:06]
The Future and Ongoing Storytelling
- Lennon reflects on the potential challenge of writing post-prison, acknowledging that story-finding is a journalist’s essential skill, and his perspective will keep evolving with his life outside.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the distortion of crime by media:
“True crime just corrupts our cultural understanding of crime and punishment.”
—John J. Lennon [04:51] -
On accountability and truth in storytelling:
“I'm going to go in there and I'm going to explain it. And I use my own crime to do that, but only in furtherance of their crime. It's illuminating the stark spots that most writers and storytellers can't go.”
—John J. Lennon [12:28] -
On writing as personal reckoning:
“What writing has done for me. It enables me to figure out myself.”
—John J. Lennon [19:49] -
On the endlessness of stories:
“The story that swirls around me, the real story is the one that swirls within me. So when I get out there, there's so much conflict that's going to be with these stories and these people that come into my life...The story starts within you.”
—John J. Lennon [22:48]
Key Timestamps
- 00:26–01:00 — Introduction by Gladstone to the TV true crime boom, Monster series, and introduction of guest John J. Lennon.
- 02:20–04:48 — Lennon’s entry into true crime media and his reflection on the experience being increasingly at odds with reality.
- 05:53–06:19 — Discussion of cultural obsession with true crime and its broader implications.
- 07:19–08:24 — Differences between literary and TV true crime; influence of Emmanuel Carrère.
- 09:42–13:16 — In-depth on Michael Shane Hale and Milton Jones, their crimes, backgrounds, and transformations.
- 14:13–17:52 — Robert Chambers: media myth versus reality, impact of addiction, and personal struggles.
- 19:49–22:48 — Power of writing for self-understanding and for mentoring others; Lennon’s thoughts on his future as a writer.
Tone & Style
The conversation is deeply introspective, honest, and compassionate, often frank about violence and remorse while also rigorously interrogating the ethics and consequences of crime storytelling—both for the subjects and the consumers.
For Listeners Who Haven't Tuned In
This episode is essential for anyone questioning the ethics of the true crime genre, offering insider perspectives on the harm and humanity lost in sensational retellings—while honoring the complexity of the people inside the stories. Lennon’s testimony urges us to see those convicted not as monsters, but as complicated individuals whose full humanity is rarely allowed to surface on screen.