← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
I never run into a banker that goes. What we're really here to do, Kara, is community through money.
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Podcast Host / Narrator
Hi everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guests today are the executive producers and the star of the Audacity. It's a dark comedy series from AMC that explores the lives of tech CEOs and their relationships with their families, therapists and enablers. The show follows Duncan park, the ambitious, arrogant, and often delusional CEO of a data mining company in Silicon Valley. He's a wannabe tech titan who's set on joining the billionaire ranks of the Valley's powerful elite. And like real life counterparts, his ego, greed and insecurities help push him towards his goal and also get in the way. Emmy Award winner Jonathan Glatzer is the Audacity's executive producer and showrunner. He's also written and produced for Succession, Bad Sisters and Better Call Saul. Billy Magnuson stars in the series as Duncan park and the show is executive produced by Gina Mingachi, whose credits include Killing Eve and Orphan Black. I interviewed Jonathan, Billy and Gina live last Sunday on the Vox Media podcast stage at south by Southwest in Austin, Texas to talk to him because this
- [01:31]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
is a really good series.
- [01:32]
Podcast Host / Narrator
It's sort of the next version of Silicon Valley, which I was an advisor to, but it's a lot darker and a lot more realistic about the mania of these people and the damage they
- [01:41]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
do in this case.
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Podcast Host / Narrator
Instead of adorable people, the principals in this series are more villainous and I think that's appropriate for the time. And a quick note before we get into it, I have a new series from CNN called Kara Swisher Wants to live forever, premiering April 11. We watched the trailer ahead of this conversation at south by south and you'll hear me make a few references to it during the interview. It was a fun conversation, so stick around.
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Sponsor / Ad Reader
Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business takes everything you've got,
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Kara Swisher
and a lot of the tools out
- [02:28]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
there that are supposed to make your life easier just aren't great at talking to each other. And that means you end up having to talk toggle between a dozen different apps and services just to keep the lights on. Enough of that. Now there's Odoo, the all in one fully integrated platform that actually might help you get it all done. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o.com
- [02:57]
this message comes from NPR sponsor Paramount. Plus and the new original series the Madison. Taylor Sheridan's most intimate story yet. The Madison follows a family raised in a world of digital distraction, forced by tragedy to truly see one another and come together. Starring Michelle Pfeiffer and Kurt Russell, the Madison new series, streaming now only on Paramount.
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The worst advice I have ever gotten is stay in your lane. I am Robin Epson, athlete executive founder, and staying in my lane would have kept me small. Don't protect other people's comfort at the cost of your growth. This week on Project Swagger, my strategies for embracing your multi hyphenate existence. Tune in now at Project Swagger.
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Gina Mangachi
Wherever you get your podcasts,
- [03:48]
Billy Magnuson
it is on.
- [03:51]
Kara Swisher
Thank you for joining me on the Vox Media stage at south by Southwest for a live taping of on with Kara Swisher. Okay, so the Audacity is full of characters who are greedy, narcissistic, nihilistic, basically assholes essentially. But it's only coming 12 years after HBO's Silicon Valley, which presented a much more optimistic, value driven focus on sort of quirky characters. And it did nail them in a satirical way, but it was sweet. And at the end, the characters want to do the right thing, which never happens in tech. But it also mirrors a larger shift to how people perceive Silicon Valley. So talk about your own perceptual changes in tech for each of you. Let's start with Gina, then Billy, then Jonathan.
- [04:45]
Gina Mangachi
We kind of try to, and we've said this from like moment one with the show when Jonathan only had one script, which is, it really is only about these characters, Kara. Like, you know, and, and we really focused on families and
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Kara Swisher
how
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Gina Mangachi
these parents do what they do. The kids really just want to be loved right by their parents. So we're kind of always trying to show, honestly in every episode, if everybody sticks with it, good and evil in one scene, right? So we really, we want to show both sides of that, right? There's hope, there's dreams. I'm going to try and make this thing that it might fuck up your kids. We hold both of those in each scene because that's real and we're gonna keep doing that.
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Kara Swisher
So why set it in tech?
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Gina Mangachi
Could have been Hollywood, right? Parents making stuff that may or may not be great for you. Having their kids, you know, be affected by what you're making and doing and the values and the morals could have very easily been Hollywood or, you know, so I think tech provides. I mean, it's what we're all Talking about right now, you can't escape it. Jonathan and I said literally from the beginning, we're like, we want our parents to see this show. Like, we want people that wouldn't have watched other shows about tech to watch this show. Because it really is our world right now. And it's a snapshot of this is the world we're living in. It's the conversation we're all having. It's the conversation a lot of us don't want to have, even with our own families. Right. Like too much social media, get off your phone, you know, we can't escape it. So it felt rich. I mean, one of our characters, even Billy's character tells his therapist, you could have come anywhere. You came to Silicon Valley.
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Kara Swisher
Right?
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Gina Mangachi
Right. This is where money, power, largest concentration of the richest people in the world, you know, so it just felt like fertile ground to find stories about how we have a responsibility to the next generation to not fuck up the world so that it's. We can't put it back together.
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Kara Swisher
Right.
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Gina Mangachi
Which right now we feel like we might be on the verge of not being able to put it back together.
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Kara Swisher
In fact, we are. Go ahead, Bill.
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Billy Magnuson
With change in tech, well, I think it's a double edged sword more than anything. Again, the original or genesis of the idea was to help people, was. It was exciting to. I was on the cusp of after college, finally tech and social media and these phone devices. I think I got like one of the iPhones, smartphones when I was like 27. And I remember, you know, before when you were young, you could be like, hey, I want to meet my buddy on the corner here. And you would have to meet him at 8 o' clock that night. But now with tech you could go like, hey, we can meet anywhere, change everything. But also now they could pull out of meeting you at 8 o', clock, they could like get away from you. Now instead of like making it better, there's this double edged sword of, sorry, I'm so nervous at this shit. I'm saying it's these things. You have this opportunity to connect us even more, but at the same time it distances us.
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Kara Swisher
Absolutely. What was your perception? Because your character is pretty fucking loathsome at all times. At all times. One of the things I was saying to a friend of mine was, I can't stand him and there's pathos to him. And so when I was watching it, I thought, I don't want to feel sorry for these fuckers. I don't. And I did. I felt sorry for You.
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Billy Magnuson
Well, I think it's because we're all humans and the humanity of these characters. Again, his intention to go through the valley and punch a hole in the sky was genuine. It was something to make the world a better place. And then with power, with money, with corruption, you know, these people are still innocent deep down. They're children.
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Kara Swisher
Well, that's certainly true, but go ahead.
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Jonathan Glatzer
Well, I think that for me, the change is first of all, any comparison to the show. Silicon Valley is an incredibly flattering compliment. Not that you did that exactly in terms of which one you liked better, but we're gonna work on that. I think it's in the title, the audacity. It's an attribute that, that is a double edged sword. It's something that has fascinated me for a long time in terms of. It's like this superpower that we all have but most of us don't use because it means crashing through the gates and moving fast and breaking things, which makes you a bull in a china shop, which used to be not a good thing. Right, right.
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Kara Swisher
It never was, but go ahead.
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Jonathan Glatzer
It never was. It still isn't, but it is now regarded. I think the culture in Silicon Valley changed to make breaking things, disrupting things a positive. And the effects are very clear in people's daily lives today. And I think that, you know, that's, that's a change that seemed inevitable to a lot of people. I've been paying attention to you for many years and you've been calling out this, this is where we're headed, people. But I think that there is a madness that needs to be stopped. And I don't know how to do it. And I don't think satire is going to do it. It's the only weapon that I have is to sort of hold up a mirror to them and to their side what they're doing.
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Kara Swisher
One of the interesting part, I'm not supposed to talk about this thing, but there's a character who seems to be based on me because it's the code confere.
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Gina Mangachi
Not possible, by the way.
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Kara Swisher
And they're not red chairs.
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Gina Mangachi
No, there's only one Kara Swisher.
- [10:32]
Kara Swisher
Okay, fine, let's be honest. Red Chair is Code conference. But one of the things his character, he says explicitly what has been implicit for years. And I think one of the things we're going right now is these tech moguls are saying explicitly, like Sam Altman this week, saying, we're going to take all the intelligence that you have and we're gonna steal it. And Sell it back to you.
- [10:54]
Jonathan Glatzer
That's right. Yeah.
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Kara Swisher
Like we're just gonna do that or we're gonna take this information and you articulate that. So, Billy, again, you play this sort of loathsome tech entrepreneur who. Duncan Park. And you've got that energy, that sort of frenetic. Frenetic. And I can't be irrelevant energy. And there's a lot of lines that I just love where you said belief is affirmed by fuckability, which is, by the way, beautiful writing.
- [11:18]
Jonathan Glatzer
Thank you.
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Billy Magnuson
That's. Yeah. A very insecure character. Screaming that out loud.
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Kara Swisher
Empathetic is just pathetic with a prefix. When someone.
- [11:29]
Jonathan Glatzer
Thank you,
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Billy Magnuson
Jonathan Glatzer, everybody.
- [11:35]
Gina Mangachi
He was so proud of himself.
- [11:37]
Billy Magnuson
Come on.
- [11:38]
Jonathan Glatzer
He was.
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Kara Swisher
It's because he gets diagnosed as possibly empathetic, which is a problem for him. And then my favorite one is raising money on frothy numbers. To sugarcoat, the rotten apple is what built this town. Exactly right. Hello, AI. But. But you think your stock's about to crash, which is terrifying for you because your stock price and your dick are quote, one and the same. Talk about him under the surface. How do you relate to a character that's deeply flawed and insecure?
- [12:10]
Billy Magnuson
I've always said this with any character I've created, good or bad or whatever, that they're always. They're the hero in their own story. And he thinks he's championing and creating the best idea for the world around him. I love the hypocrisy of the show as someone that's trying to make a perfect product for people or make the world perfect for people. While at home he's a trash fire emotionally, personally, doesn't know how to take care of things. And I think building the character around the insecure child he is deep down and the love he wanted from his father and the world, he just wants affection and attention. It could drive people to do crazy, crazy things. Just for acknowledgement, though, people are onto him.
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Kara Swisher
They're like, you're in it for yourself constantly through the show. And he seems not self aware in any way.
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Billy Magnuson
Not self aware, but also fighting it. He's trying to put the mask on and create the illusion of the world he believes he should be living in. And I think that's a fascinating character to dive into.
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Kara Swisher
So, Gina, you said the show looks at Silicon Valley through a small town lens, which it is. It's a high school. It's a high school cafeteria in a lot of ways.
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Gina Mangachi
Yeah, yeah.
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Kara Swisher
So tiny town, little bubble is how you put it. Talk about that approach for people who don't know much about the Valley. It's probably not because now they're global. These people are global and famous. And to have met them back then when Jeff Bezos, I met him when he didn't have any money. I met Sergey and Larry in the garage. Although I have to say, jerky. People were jerky then, and they're just jerkier now. Talk a little bit about the tiny lens, small bubble kind of thing.
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Gina Mangachi
Well, when we took trips there, right, and we went. And, you know, we went to Bucks and we saw diner and we saw all the things hanging on the wall. This is the booth where this was. And this was that.
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Kara Swisher
They love that.
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Gina Mangachi
They love that. And, you know, it's not dissimilar to Hollywood, right? So, you know, where we like to, like, hold onto the tradition of the place, right? The classical tradition for us. It's like, I mean, even when we screen this for. In San Francisco for a tech crowd a couple weeks ago, everybody was coming up to us afterwards going, that's where I get my coffee. That's where I, you know, and it's, it's, it's. I feel like part of what, you know, we're trying to hold on to is the idea that everybody's up in each other's business. Everybody knows what's going on. You can't hide, right? What's dissimilar about, let's say, Hollywood in this world is, you know, it's, it's good to have a failed company and get onto your next one, right? Like we hide from those failures in Hollywood right here. It's like, how many, how many empty? Like we were driving around doing location scouting and it was just gigantic empty buildings everywhere, you know, so it just feels like everyone knows your business. Duncan is trying to make sure that it doesn't come out that, you know, he needs, he needs to get another fish before it comes out.
- [15:12]
Kara Swisher
Well, it's always a scheme. It's always a Ponzi scheme, essentially.
- [15:15]
Gina Mangachi
But I do want to say something going back to the Billy thing, because I think this is really important to understanding kind of one of the themes of the show we're hoping lands later in the season. Billy goes to see his ex CFO of his first company, fafa.
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Kara Swisher
Great scene. Yeah.
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Gina Mangachi
And Randall park plays this character and he's about to maybe screw Duncan over. We don't know. And Duncan says to him, like, we did this. We built this company together. Don't screw me over. And he's like, you thought it was a movement and it was a startup, and part of one of the themes is keeping that alive. It's like part of what Duncan is maybe struggling with a little bit is what did bring me here? Why am I in the Valley? Did I come here to create something? Am I the man, or am I always gonna be the co Man? What was my.
- [16:11]
Kara Swisher
Well, it's the idea that it's supposed to be a greater than kind of thing. Totally. I never run into a banker that goes. What we're really here to do, Kara, is community through money. Actually, one of my first stories for the Wall Street Journal was all the bullshit. When I got there, I had just gotten there, and I was a person, and someone said, cover it like you're a foreign correspondent. Like, go in and just listen. And it like, we're here for the community. We're here together to make decisions. And I was like, well, why do you have controlling shares then? If it's for all of us or we're just simple people? And I'm like, well, we're just wearing hoodies and comfortable clothes. I'm like, that's a $600 hoodie. Cashmere hoodie. I'm sorry, it just doesn't gel kind of thing. And so the bullshit that went on from the beginning, I think, was trying to. And they're still doing it. We're just simple people. We just happen to have a yacht, plane, chiefs of staff, cooks, et cetera, et cetera.
- [17:07]
Jonathan Glatzer
I think the cultish aspect of that,
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Kara Swisher
though, is you managed to land that. So you were a writer and producer on succession. We've talked about this. When you first got approached to write this series, your reaction was, you don't know anything about tech. You don't know shit about tech. But when you went to Northern California, as you said, and spent some time, what were your observations?
- [17:25]
Jonathan Glatzer
Well, it was very monoculture, I embarrassed to say. I was looking for people of color.
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Kara Swisher
Yes, Good luck with that.
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Jonathan Glatzer
And it was difficult.
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Kara Swisher
Try to find a woman. Go ahead.
- [17:38]
Jonathan Glatzer
That too. That too.
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Kara Swisher
In charge.
- [17:40]
Jonathan Glatzer
It really is. It is. Because I think that. And what they do with everything is. They say, well, we put it through an algorithm, and this is clearly the way to go. And it's clearly the way to go because culture and society has sort of fed the algorithm. And why so many algorithms come out somewhat racist and misogynistic is because of that. But in terms of what I saw, there was this kind of grinding ambition that masked this utopian vision. And a real kind of like, why are these people who have such difficulty communicating about themselves, about their work, and being honest about what they're up to and putting all of these aphorisms ahead of the truth. Why are they in charge of how the rest of us are going to talk to each other? And I heard a clap, you know, and it's not just how we talk to each other. It's every fucking thing. It's how we meet each other, how we eat, how we shop, how we masturbate. And they are paying attention to all of those things and marking how we do each of these things in a way that is genuinely. It's terrifying the more you know about it, but it's also, I think, much more terrifying that we don't know about it, that we don't know how they do it.
- [19:09]
Kara Swisher
When Google first put out its version of a social network, which failed miserably, several of them did. They were like, we don't know why we can't get it. I'm like, because you are the least social people I've ever fucking met in my life. Like, why are you telling us how to socialize? Which was interesting. But it's also some of the stuff that, say Facebook did was addictive at the same time.
- [19:28]
Jonathan Glatzer
Yeah, look, it's like, you know, dermatologists who had acne as kids, they're trying to fix their own problems in a way, through us. And it's really fucking, you know, fix thyself, physician.
- [19:40]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, good point.
- [19:42]
Gina Mangachi
I was very struck when we went. We were shooting in Palo Alto. I was very struck one night. Like, we went out to, like, get ice cream or whatever, and it was this long line of couples, like, local couples. And like, the guys didn't know. Like, they didn't know how to talk to girls. They didn't know how to. Like, I was just watching this long line. Line of people that didn't know how to actually communicate.
- [20:02]
Jonathan Glatzer
And now they're creating a generation of other guys that don't know how to talk to girls either, because of the. All they know how to talk to is their phones and each other. Yeah,
- [20:14]
Podcast Host / Narrator
we'll be back in a minute.
- [20:28]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
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- [22:47]
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- [23:17]
Kara Swisher
Billy, your co star of course, is trying to figure out how to get that way. Your co star, Sarah Goldberg, plays a therapist to tech CEOs. It's a little like the Sopranos right. That relationship, Dr. Melfi and Soprano, her name is Dr. Joanne Felder. Their fates become intertwined after Duncan blackmails her without giving any away. Talk about the power dynamic between those tech billionaires on the show and the professional class. I thought you nailed, like that's the one thing that you always sort of focus in on the billionaires. But there's a whole series of enablers
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Billy Magnuson
that live around them.
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Kara Swisher
Yes. You know, and they're really interesting. Cause they're barely seething. You could feel that from them. But I remember being drawn into one among the Google founders of the chiefs of staff of various people fighting with each other. But the chiefs of staff were the ones fighting with each other on behalf of the billionaires. And literally they started dragging me and I'm like, you know, you need to get away from me. I don't want to hear about your stupid chief of staff beefs essentially. But talk a little bit about this relationship because that dynamic is well known.
- [24:20]
Billy Magnuson
First of all, I just would love to say, like, Sarah Goldberg is a fantastic actor and every day working with her has been an absolute treat. I'm sad she's not here on this trip, but God, she is fantastic. She's from.
- [24:31]
Jonathan Glatzer
I can second that.
- [24:32]
Billy Magnuson
Yeah, she's wonderful to work with. You know, for me, I think
- [24:39]
Gina Mangachi
the
- [24:40]
Billy Magnuson
people in your world, if you pay them enough, they're going to tell you everything you want to hear.
- [24:44]
Kara Swisher
That's correct.
- [24:45]
Billy Magnuson
That's one thing. But then it's funny that for some reason Silicon Valley has made the importance of these billionaires the most. The top peak of what people have to pay attention to. And it's just made up rules. Everyone in that valley are making shit up. And so for some reason, that's where the money is. The people around them are also saying like, oh, this has to be important because they're making money doing it. And so that is a perpetual cycle of just bullshit, top of bullshit on top of bullshit.
- [25:11]
Kara Swisher
You do a lot of like drinking different elixirs and things like that and then throwing them at the assistants who keep bringing you things, whatever you happen to ask for. Which is really very funny.
- [25:21]
Billy Magnuson
Of course. Of course.
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Kara Swisher
Yeah. You're really good at it, actually.
- [25:24]
Billy Magnuson
Oh really?
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Kara Swisher
You'd make an excellent billionaire.
- [25:26]
Jonathan Glatzer
Yeah, thanks.
- [25:28]
Gina Mangachi
I wish come to know came very easily to him.
- [25:31]
Kara Swisher
It's often. Is there anyone you were focused on that you see publicly?
- [25:37]
Billy Magnuson
Yeah, just look at the Valley again. As an artist, as an actor like you like to. I like to see the things I love about people and I love, hate about people. And I make my own melange. That's like the gift of acting, I think, is having the freedom to create these characters and build all the kinks and weird things and the unique qualities that they have. So, yes, of course, it's based off people out there, and then it's a melange of the ideas I incorporate myself.
- [26:03]
Kara Swisher
So there's also Zach Galifianakis character, Karl Bardoff. He's fantastic, wonderful. He's a tech pioneer, former idealist who made money off of Spam, ultimately, which just hurts because he did, and everyone knows it. But he tries, and he's filthy rich. He's still miserable because he thinks he's underappreciated. Carl tells Joanne in therapy, where's our parade? All I see is pitchforks and ingratitude, which is a great line. And just angry about it. He's like a really mean Steve Wozniak. I don't know who else is. And see what he does not mean. By the way, what does he represent to you? Because there is a class of early Valley that is so wealthy that they've lost all perspective of everything. And at the same time, one of the things that's always I try to communicate is the victimization they feel is so profound. I've had so many people say, you're so mean to me. And I was like, you need to get a dog, or you need to speak to your parents about hugging, but it's not my problem. And so talk a little bit about that. The victimization.
- [27:06]
Jonathan Glatzer
Zach's character, Karl Bardolph, is. He's actually the only billionaire in the cast. Billy's character wants to be. And I think that part of that desperation to get to that class is what drives Billy's character and so many of the others. But Carl landed there with Spam, and he's embarrassed about that. He doesn't like being reminded. Yeah. He's also about legacy, which is also very important to these guys. Carl is stuck between being aware of the bullshit and also wanting to be a part of it.
- [27:46]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, he needs relevance.
- [27:48]
Jonathan Glatzer
He needs relevance.
- [27:48]
Kara Swisher
Desperate for relevance.
- [27:49]
Jonathan Glatzer
He does. But at the same time, he knows that that's an absurd notion. And so that sort of that split that splinter in the brain creates in Karl and really played brilliantly by Zack, this kind of, you know, this need to fill the hole. And he thinks that maybe Duncan could be a human being.
- [28:12]
Kara Swisher
He's very attracted to Duncan.
- [28:14]
Jonathan Glatzer
He's very attracted to Duncan.
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Kara Swisher
Wants to kill him essentially at the same time.
- [28:16]
Jonathan Glatzer
But he's never Met anyone as relentless as him. It doesn't matter how many times you knock him down, he keeps popping back up like a inflatable clown that you punch. He just keeps coming back up at you.
- [28:26]
Kara Swisher
And actual punches actually.
- [28:28]
Jonathan Glatzer
And he does actually, yes, there's some punches munching involved as well. But yeah, he's somebody who understands that. Back in the day, we all talked about when we were making this sausage, making the world a better place. And all the billionaires come to a fork in the road and most of us go, Dr.
- [28:49]
Kara Swisher
Evil, right.
- [28:50]
Jonathan Glatzer
And he's not comfortable doing that. He's not ready to do that. But he also really wants to be in the club of relevance. Of relevance. The next thing, as we're writing season two right now, which we were just greenlit for season two, so we're very excited about that. Thank you. We find out the backstory of why he doesn't feel like he's in the. What the incident was that caused him to not feel like he was part of the gang. What we call God Mountain, the figures of God Mountain. And it's very, very small and petty.
- [29:27]
Kara Swisher
It is, it's amazing. And still angry. I'm in Washington now and they followed me there. Cause you can't get enough of me. And I ran into one of them, one of these people, well known name. And they came up to me and they like, they're in with Trump now, right? And they go, kara, it looks like we've won. And I looked at him, I said, but you're still an asshole. And they crumble. I still had them.
- [29:53]
Billy Magnuson
I'm like, what do you think that change of that idea? There was a time when Silicon Valley started that they kept the separation from the government.
- [30:01]
Kara Swisher
They were like, they figured out you can buy things. I think they had a real disdain, especially like Bill Gates was always bragging he didn't have lobbyists. And then they realized, especially as they moved into things that were more analog like cars and things like that, that, oh, wait a minute, we disdain them, but we can buy them. And Trump is the ultimate coin operated president.
- [30:21]
Jonathan Glatzer
So as I note in the Michael
- [30:24]
Kara Swisher
Lewis world, which is quicker.
- [30:26]
Jonathan Glatzer
Sam Bankman Fried. There's a moment where Sam Bankman Fried is like, oh, this is actually very affordable by a politician.
- [30:31]
Kara Swisher
It's affordable. And Trump's explicit about it, like, give me the money, you get a pardon. Give me the money, you get to stand in front of the. It's very easy. And I think they privately, they insult him constantly. And just so you know, Kara, I'M like, get the fuck out of here. I'd rather talk to Marjorie Taylor fucking Green than you. Because at least she believed in him. She actually did. Not any longer. She's still terrible. So just ask her about trans issues and then you'll stop loving her so much. You could have made Duncan the CEO of a food delivery app or social media, but it's data mining. What's happening here. It's this godlike omniscient idea which has been around for a lot. This idea which they have now. They really do. And I think you articulate that really well. You're making a point about privacy, obviously, or total lack of it. And that started back with Scott McNeely. There's no privacy gambit. Used to it kind of thing. Talk about what that means, why that's such an important thing. Because that runs throughout this show, this constant surveillance. And I talk a lot about surveillance culture. It's obviously very key in China. Here, it's for more selling you shit. But eventually, when you have an administration that feels treacherous, it could be problematic. It feels really problematic. Talk a little bit about that.
- [31:51]
Gina Mangachi
So yesterday on our panel that you did with us, Rob Cordry, one of the actors in. In our show, told you about something that was very real, that happened with all of us, and that was, you know, one of the characters in a later episode who works at Cupertino. She's telling her room full of employees that are all, you know, young, in her 20s, you know, you know, not to accept cookies. Right?
- [32:16]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [32:16]
Gina Mangachi
And they all go, no, I don't really know that. Right. So. And we all kind of looked at each other and were like, we didn't know that either. Right?
- [32:25]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [32:26]
Gina Mangachi
And I'm not afraid to say it. So that was a big conversation with all of us, like, oh, shit. So really, I personally am coming through that, like, going to, like, do my parents know that every time my mom gets on to shop, does she know that she's. What she's giving away? And the truth is, no, people don't know what they're doing. So that's a big lens also, again, to bring up the kids again. And we get into this a little bit in the season two, which there's a writers room up now for it, which is. I didn't grow up with social media, and I'm really glad I didn't. You know, like, imagine if every single thing you did could be broadcast to the world. Right. It's just a different time we're living in now. And there needs to be a different level of protection that we. We are not offering right now. So we kind of just want to just from a very sort of, like, in the ground, like, do you know what you're signing up for every time you click that button? And the answer is no. So that's kind of one of the things that's important to us.
- [33:32]
Kara Swisher
So early in the first episode, we see a billboard for a company called Spookle. The names are really great. Yours is
- [33:41]
Billy Magnuson
Hypernosis.
- [33:42]
Kara Swisher
Hypernosis. The names are fantastic.
- [33:44]
Billy Magnuson
No, thanks.
- [33:46]
Kara Swisher
You could call a company that, actually. But the tagline is, you agreed to this. Yeah. Yes. Truth is, we agreed to this. Let's be honest.
- [33:56]
Jonathan Glatzer
Yes, we did.
- [33:57]
Kara Swisher
So, Billy, when you're preparing for the role, did you lean into that uncomfortable truth? We agreed to this. And you articulate that later because on some level, we have accepted the terms and conditions. Because you do lean into it as a character, which I suspect you don't believe what you were saying. This guy really says, too fucking bad.
- [34:15]
Billy Magnuson
Too fucking bad. But I think he also has such a need or desire. His want is so grand that nothing can stop him. Any steel door is going to be knocked down either with a pickaxe, a blowtorch. He's going to keep fighting through it,
- [34:30]
Kara Swisher
but he never thinks it's a bad thing. You really do deliver on that. That he never questions. I think a lot of the other characters do know what they're doing is vaguely evil.
- [34:41]
Billy Magnuson
Yes. I think it's a mindset Duncan has, is like, no, I'm doing this for you. It's what you need. It's the medicine you don't need. I'm giving it to you. Don't worry. I'm gonna make your life better. That you don't even know it. So that's a dangerous person, in my opinion.
- [34:55]
Kara Swisher
Absolutely. He's terrifying.
- [34:56]
Jonathan Glatzer
Actually, I was just gonna say. I mean, I think that it is in the end of the season, and I don't think I'm giving too much away. Duncan does basically confront all of Silicon Valley at a conference that Kara did not host.
- [35:14]
Kara Swisher
But I would never wear those chunky glasses, but go ahead.
- [35:19]
Jonathan Glatzer
But there is a sense of you all already. They're angry at him for. Basically, he's going to market people's personal data, commodify it, and they're angry at him for. What is really going to happen is a disruption of their profit center, which is us. And that's the thing. When I first went up to Silicon Valley, one of the things that I asked about was what should this guy. What's this company? And I didn't get the answer. But I then said, what about data? And they're like, oh, yeah, that's evergreen. That's not going away.
- [35:54]
Kara Swisher
Right. Especially with AI.
- [35:56]
Jonathan Glatzer
Especially with AI. And then I did more research into it, and the truth is, it is how they make their money is off of us through advertising, how they sell to third parties, all of that stuff. And so if there's a guy that comes along and is going to sort of pull back the curtain and say,
- [36:16]
Kara Swisher
this is what we're doing, this is what we're doing.
- [36:18]
Jonathan Glatzer
And you guys, you're such hypocrites. You're already doing this. You know, when women's menstrual cycles are, you know, when to sell them sweatpants and when to sell them stilettos? Like, that's what. That is what they're doing.
- [36:30]
Kara Swisher
They're already doing it. I'm just explicitly saying. I mean, there's one. Sam Altman, as I said recently said we see the future where intelligence is a utility, like electricity or water, and people buy it from us on a meter. And of course, the intelligence comes from. Which is an astonishing thing he also talked about. He went on to say, intelligence needs to become, quote, too cheap to meter. And of course, he also said that it takes a lot of energy to raise humans. So what's the problem with data centers? Which is unusual coming from someone who just had a baby. But that's another. We're not going into that. But when you think about that idea, this Walt Mossberg named the merpacious information thieves. 15 years ago on stage, he said to Sergey and Larry, you're rapacious information thieves is what you are. And just this week, Grammarly was stealing me. They were selling me to people without asking me if it was okay by pulling in all my stuff. How do we not agree to this? Gina? We do agree to this for convenience, as you noted. It's really a trade of ourselves. We are the product, for convenience, of a cheap, free map or a dating service or a piece of information that we actually paid for in the first place. Yes. Yeah.
- [37:50]
Gina Mangachi
You know, going back to Duncan's first company that he had, which was called fafa. You know, we hear a character go, oh, yeah, I bought my first Subaru on fafa. And I bought. You know, there was a moment when it really was that, like, you know, it really was something that, you know,
- [38:08]
Jonathan Glatzer
sandals and canoes and shit.
- [38:09]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [38:10]
Gina Mangachi
We have another character, Anoushka, who is the Cupertino executive Say, okay, great, we can get Q tips delivered overnight. But really, what have we done? What are we doing? We actually go there in one of those scenes and we have someone saying exactly what you're saying, which is, let's take this moment and know the world we're living in. And it's like. But really, what have we done?
- [38:33]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
Right?
- [38:34]
Gina Mangachi
What have we done other than we can get shit delivered in 24 hours? Really? You know, and that's a question that's
- [38:40]
Jonathan Glatzer
really less than 24. Yeah. And it is. It's also, you know, did we set up. Did we do anything that we set about to accomplish? Are we more tolerant society? Of course not. Did we do anything positive for our kids? Provably, no. Did we, you know, help the environment? No. These. These data centers are, you know, run more than.
- [39:01]
Kara Swisher
One of the things. I'm going to talk about the business, the larger Hollywood business in a second. But one of the things that's most poignant here are the kids. I happen to know a lot of these kids that you're depicting, and I feel for them. And a lot of them, I actually. Some of their parents aren't talking to me anymore, but the kids are just FYI. And I went out with one of them and one of their parents took an ugly turn, I would say. And he asked me, 16 years old, and we had dinner, and his mom asked me to have dinner with him.
- [39:35]
Billy Magnuson
And.
- [39:35]
Kara Swisher
And he goes, what do we do? I said, here's what we do. When your parents, when your dad dies, we're gonna take the money and give it to the Sierra Club. That's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do good things, like, very much like the people who ran the gas companies, the Rockefeller foundation turned around. It's like you have an opportunity to shift it into something better, that kind of thing. But the kids, I think, are the key to this entire show. All the kids and the way they're hurting in ways that. There's a scene where they're at dinner which is devastating as they're not paying any attention kind of stuff. So that, to me, is the heart of the show.
- [40:12]
Jonathan Glatzer
I agree. Yeah. And it is, you know, one of the main characters is this kid Orson, kind of based on me. I grew up in a house with two psychiatrists, and I could hear them.
- [40:25]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [40:27]
Jonathan Glatzer
But in our story, he moves from Baltimore into this bubble where everyone is optimizing their brains and their bodies. And he is an awkward pubescent with ibs. And the idea of, like, can we come up with a bet. You know, some somebody who is so genuinely human, genuine, you know, his corporal self is betraying him in this culture that is basically saying, hey, you could take this, you could take that. You know, you can be a better person mentally and physically and seeing it happening all around and there really are literal billboards for yeah, I'm sure.
- [41:13]
Kara Swisher
No, that's what my whole series is about. None of it works but just you're gonna die in the end. Just plot spoiler for my series. But you're all gonna die someday.
- [41:22]
Jonathan Glatzer
And thank goodness, us too.
- [41:27]
Podcast Host / Narrator
We'll be back in a minute.
- [41:41]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
Support for this show comes from Odoo. There's an endless supply of software out there that promises to streamline your workflow. That may be true for a specific aspect of your business, but if you need one app for accounting, one for inventory management, another for sales, how streamlined can your workflow actually be? If you have to be the middleman between them, Odoo says they're the answer you're looking for. The only business software you'll ever need, Odoo can be your one stop shop for CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, HR and more. Plus, it's super customizable and easy to use out of the box. And the best part? They say not only can they replace multiple applications, but they say they'll do it for a fraction of the cost. Whether you're just starting out or already well on your way to scaling, Odoo wants to help you put the clutter aside so you can do what you set out to do when you started your company.
- [42:29]
Kara Swisher
Thousands of businesses have made the switch,
- [42:32]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
so why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o.com.
- [42:44]
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- [43:16]
I'm excited to put something new on your radar from the Vox Media podcast network. It's called Project Swagger with the one and Robin Arzon and it's all about helping you trust yourself, level up your mindset and actually make the Changes you've been thinking about. Robin is Peloton's vice president of fitness programming and head instructor. She's also a 27 time marathon and ultramarathon runner, founder of Swagger Society media company and a two time New York Times bestselling author. In under 30 minutes, Robin shares the rituals, routines and mental shifts that fuel her hustle and show you how to apply them in your own life. In the very first episode, she opens up about the moment that forced her to transform her inner voice and the strategies that helped her become what she calls a self talk ninja. You can find Project Swagger with Robin Arzon on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Tuesday.
- [44:14]
Kara Swisher
I want to move to the industry in general because it's also affecting all of you. All of this. What you're depicting here is what's the rest of us are being pulled around by the nose by this industry. So I just had Matt Bellamy on the podcast who's a journalist, very good journalist, he told me the biggest question in Hollywood is will I lose my job? For a lot of people, the answer is yes. Actors we'll see. At least in the short term. You're okay, Billy. Not for long, but there's a lot of job losses. Billy, first talk about you've been working as an actor for 20 years. What do you think the next 20 years is gonna be like with AI and other. What is the top of mind for each of you right now? The mood you have?
- [44:59]
Billy Magnuson
The mood I have is sometimes, always, rarely, never.
- [45:03]
Kara Swisher
It's a line from the.
- [45:04]
Billy Magnuson
All I could relate it to is kind of like the music industry. Weirdly I think of like the idea of like being in touch. The original idea of Napster or like all these things is to have access to all these beautiful programs or songs, I would say. And then slowly over time you realize these art artists that were creating this music couldn't make it anymore because the money never made it to them. They couldn't sell an album. And I think it's happening in our industry where like you used to be able to do DVD sales or, or have part of the VHS sales and you had backend and you could support a life as an actor because of this technology. And like I applaud AMC to not having a tech company supporting them. They're doing it against all this shit today. Today. Today. Yeah. But you know, I hope they keep strong. Yeah, they're just stealing all the pot and not giving the resources to the people that are actually creating these pieces of Work and these pieces of art and that, that scares me.
- [46:03]
Kara Swisher
What do you think about when the tech companies are buying, which I wrote
- [46:07]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
about many years ago, they're going to.
- [46:08]
Kara Swisher
This is the next thing they're healthcare and this.
- [46:12]
Billy Magnuson
Well, if they're going to organize it properly, we already know like AI has the ability to. If I have a bottle in a scene and if they're going to show this movie in like Thailand, they could put whatever product out in Thailand is the best selling product in my hand. At the same time, shouldn't that performer or people that created that show get a cut of that profit?
- [46:33]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yes.
- [46:33]
Billy Magnuson
Yeah, they should.
- [46:35]
Kara Swisher
You won't.
- [46:35]
Billy Magnuson
I don't know who's fighting for it. I want to, but yeah, that shit scares me.
- [46:39]
Jonathan Glatzer
What if it's Hitler beer? You don't even know say in it too.
- [46:45]
Kara Swisher
I think just on Grok and they're not doing very well, but go ahead.
- [46:52]
Gina Mangachi
Well, I came up in 90s independent film in New York in the Miramax world, which is a whole other podcast. And at that time we were working with, you know, lots of filmmakers that were auteurs and we shifted from film to digital in that time and that was a huge conversation, right? What does this mean? This is not real filmmaking. This is not. This is. This. We're gonna, this is gonna die. We're gonna die from this, right? And you know, I'm a creative producer. I view my, my job as a producer of bringing other people's stories, helping them bring their stories to life. So I kind of saw at that time that, you know, there's a, as any innovation, especially with, in the creative industry, there is a reluctance to change, right? Like this is how film is made. We need to carry cans around and we need to have it with our hands. Gradually everybody accepted it and they accepted it because some of the old guard like Scorsese and Coppola started saying, no, this is great. This is a new democracy for filmmaking. This is. Now everybody can do it. It's not just this sort of specialized thing for, you know, a certain group of people. Not anyone can be a filmmaker. So we found a silver lining then, which was then shooting a phone on my phone. I can be a filmmaker. I can be a kid making a film in my backyard, in anywhere in the world. Right. I don't know what that silver lining is yet for this, what the phase we're about to be in. I believe we will find one because we always have, as creative people, we've always found a way to hold onto the stuff that's most important to keep telling the stories, to keep putting it out there. But we have to do that and we do it together. We find it together.
- [48:47]
Kara Swisher
Jonathan, I mean, are you there's. Look, tech companies are going to own these things. We don't know how AI is going to transform Hollywood. We've seen what happened. I don't know if you've watched the Doge staffers. It's really disturbing to watch them. They're these kids who are used chatgpt to cancel over $100 million in humanities grants without any reason just because they were doing searches and replacements, essentially. What is that? How do you think of it as a producer? I would be worried if I were you.
- [49:19]
Jonathan Glatzer
Yeah, sure.
- [49:20]
Kara Swisher
I'm warning you.
- [49:21]
Jonathan Glatzer
No, first of all, I feel incredibly fortunate to be able to be making this show and to be working. A lot of my friends are in trouble. The amount of shows that are being made is reduced just because attention spans are going elsewhere. Maybe that's the natural flow of economy and art, the format being adjusted as it always has over time. I do have some faith in that. Storytelling is not going to go away. We've been doing it it for thousands of years. I don't expect that we're going to stop. I think that the desire to see a story that plays out for more than 60 seconds is also not going to go away, although it will be diminished. It has already been diminished attention spans. I mean, one of the most frightening articles that I read recently was how film schools are having. Film schools are having a difficult time getting their film students who are paying to go there to watch a full feature film. They just, they can't, you know, same thing. What's that with books? Oh, with books for sure. That's been going on since I was in school anyway. But my refuge was the movies. And you know, two, three hours in a movie was a fantastic place and way to spend my time. And that is a difficult thing to get people to do.
- [50:48]
Kara Swisher
Generational, especially when you can minimize it and do quickly, as you say, point people to it. Although I don't think AI could write lines like cheaters never lose and losers they never cheat and information is not insight. I thought that was one of the best lines. Thank you. And going back to succession, I don't think any AI could write. You are not serious people and have it mean so much.
- [51:11]
Jonathan Glatzer
I think right now AI can do a procedural pretty well, especially something that's been around, particularly original 20 seasons of law and Order. I'm sure that that can be Replicated. I'd like to think as a viewer and as a fan of storytelling, that most people, at some point after there's a. I'm sure there's going to be a fed. I'm sure there's going to be something that comes out there the way it is now in music, where there are actual AI celebrity singers and songwriters, if you can call it a writer. There's going to be something that comes out that is going to have that, you know, AI the newness of that. But at some point, when you're being asked to emotionally invest in characters and story, do you really want it to be written by a fucking computer? I don't.
- [52:03]
Kara Swisher
I don't know.
- [52:04]
Jonathan Glatzer
I don't. I think that we have to acknowledge the. And this is. I think. I think in many ways, the real thesis of this show is that we are losing touch with our humanity and that no matter how good they get, they're only going to get good because they are absorbing our experiences and then spitting them back as Mr. Aldo does.
- [52:31]
Kara Swisher
Get better. In this series, I have. I create a bot of myself, a 3D bot, and it gets better and better. I hate to say it, but at first it's creepy, and then it's like I had a real conversation, just like you do in this show, and I was like, wow. And they're like, what do you think about me? I said, I'm trying to figure out a way to kill you. Like, that's my.
- [52:51]
Jonathan Glatzer
But that's your instinct. And I think that that's the instinct of. Perhaps it doesn't come out as bluntly in others, but I think that I did kill it. You did. That's exciting. That's exciting.
- [53:03]
Kara Swisher
I want to say I made it. I am the creator and the destroyer. So, last question from me. I'd like to know if you think this series is hopeful, dystopian. What word would you use to describe it? Billy first, then Gina, and then Jonathan.
- [53:21]
Billy Magnuson
Oh, man. What word would I describe it? Like, I can't encapsulate everything that's in Jonathan Glatzer's mind and the talent that has been putting this show together in one word because, like, human life, you can't.
- [53:36]
Kara Swisher
How do you feel doing it?
- [53:39]
Billy Magnuson
For me, I love it. It's every day. Waking up and showing up to set was a gift. The people I work with, the language that I get to speak, it was always a gift. It was a feat. And I feel a responsibility as an artist is like, you are supposed to put the mirror up to reality. And I'm not saying we're good or bad or whatever, but. But this is what's out there, and this is how we see it. And it's your choice as an observer or someone who digests it, to interpret it your own way. That's the point of art is like, I have a feeling, you have response. If we can connect on an emotional level out of it. That's the magic of art. And I don't think an AI model can paint a photo that will touch my soul like someone who could just draw line, like fucking Picasso, you know, it means something.
- [54:34]
Gina Mangachi
Hopeful. Hopeful. The kids in our show are hopeful, and they're redeemable, and that's that.
- [54:43]
Kara Swisher
Hopeful.
- [54:44]
Gina Mangachi
By the end of the series, they're not gonna be their parents.
- [54:47]
Kara Swisher
I don't think that's absolutely true today, I have to say.
- [54:51]
Jonathan Glatzer
I also struggle to come up with the word. And hopeful is not it, I'm sorry to say.
- [54:58]
Gina Mangachi
That's why we're grateful.
- [54:59]
Kara Swisher
Great together.
- [54:59]
Jonathan Glatzer
I know.
- [55:00]
Billy Magnuson
I know.
- [55:01]
Jonathan Glatzer
It's true. It's true. You know, hope to me is. I think I said to you yesterday, you know, the old line that satire is the protest of the weak. And it is. I am weak, and I don't have the ability to change society. But if we can just remind people of what is unique about our species and how much of that is being diminished by this tech, and remind them, you know, that they're gonna die, as you say. You know, the brackets of life that we have for, you know, millions of years understood when, you know, fairly soon after we're born, that we're gonna die. That's what gives life meaning. And it is something that I would love for them to understand that their own fallibility is a gift.
- [56:00]
Kara Swisher
Which was, interestingly, the message from Steve Jobs when he did that speech before he died about that. We talked about death as the great. It's actually a big theme in this, how it shifted, like, as you say, the fork in the road, which is important to understand.
- [56:14]
Jonathan Glatzer
It's everything it is. And that I have a great allergy to certainty. I think anybody who claims absolute knowledge of any particular topic is about to step in a bucket of shit, and they just don't know it.
- [56:35]
Kara Swisher
And you often do, and he often does. Your character, not you. I don't know what you do in
- [56:39]
Billy Magnuson
here, really, myself as well.
- [56:41]
Jonathan Glatzer
That's fine.
- [56:42]
Kara Swisher
Anyway, this is a wonderful show. I truly, I. I watched it all last night. It was wonderful. And I have to say, I don't want to spend another minute with these people. Not these people, but the people in tech. And I really felt for them and I'm furious that you made me feel for them in any empathetic way, because it's just pathetic with a prefix. Anyway, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining me. Jonathan Glatzer, Gina Mangachi, and Billy Magnuson, thank you so much. Audacity premieres on April 12th on AMC and AMC. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [57:27]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Bissell, Michelle Aloy, Kathryn Milsop, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Kathryn Barner. Our engineers are Rick Juan and Fernando Arruda and our theme Music is by TrackAdemx. If you're already following the show, we're glad you agreed to this. If not, all we see are pitchforks and ingratitude. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
- [58:11]
Sponsor / Ad Reader
Thanks again to Odoo for supporting this show. Odoo wants to be your ultimate all in one, fully integrated platform to handle everything. Seriously. Everything. Inventory, CRM, accounting, hr, and much more. No more shopping around or settling for expensive services that can only handle a fraction of your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com.