Barry Diller Unfiltered: on Family, Fortune, Elon, Trump & AI

Summary

Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher – Barry Diller Unfiltered: on Family, Fortune, Elon, Trump & AI

Introduction

In the May 19, 2025 episode of "On with Kara Swisher", host Kara Swisher engages in a candid and in-depth conversation with media mogul Barry Diller. Known for his pivotal roles in shaping American media and technology landscapes, Diller offers unfiltered insights into his personal life, illustrious career, perspectives on artificial intelligence, and his views on contemporary politics.

Early Relationship and Career Beginnings

Kara Swisher opens the conversation by reflecting on her long-standing relationship with Barry Diller, highlighting their mutual respect and the depth of their interactions over the decades. She reminisces about their early interactions when Diller first became interested in the internet's potential, marking the beginning of his transformative journey in the digital space.

Barry Diller (00:02): "This is substantive. It's substantive."

Their shared history dates back to the early days of the internet, where Diller's curiosity and proactive approach distinguished him from his contemporaries in Hollywood and media.

Memoir and Personal Life

Diller discusses his memoir, "Who Knew?", which has garnered attention for its exploration of his sexuality and personal relationships. He addresses misconceptions about his personal life, clarifying the dynamics of his long-term marriage to fashion icon Dionne von Furstenberg and dispelling rumors about his sexual orientation.

Barry Diller (09:00): "It's absurd. It's none of my business."

Diller emphasizes that his private life is overshadowed by his extensive career accomplishments, asserting that his memoir's true focus is on his professional journey rather than personal gossip.

Building Fox and Revolutionizing Media

A significant portion of the discussion delves into Diller's role in establishing Fox as a major broadcast network alongside Rupert Murdoch. He recounts the challenges and breakthroughs in creating an alternative to the dominant "big three" networks, eventually introducing groundbreaking shows like Married with Children and The Simpsons that redefined television content.

Barry Diller (19:38): "Edgy, contrarian, not antisocial, but not conformist, social."

Diller credits the success of Fox to its commitment to originality and its departure from traditional broadcasting norms, fostering a more creative and diverse programming slate.

Entrepreneurship and Digital Innovation

Transitioning from traditional media, Diller discusses his entrepreneurial ventures, particularly the founding of IAC (InterActiveCorp). He highlights the company's strategic investments in diverse platforms such as Expedia, Match Group, Vimeo, and Care.com, showcasing his knack for identifying and nurturing digital innovations.

Barry Diller (22:28): "Screens can be interactive."

Diller elaborates on his visionary approach to digital media, emphasizing the interactive potential of screens beyond passive consumption. This insight led to the expansion of IAC into various digital sectors, reinforcing his influence in the tech industry.

Views on AI and Technology

The conversation shifts to artificial intelligence, where Diller shares his critical yet nuanced stance on AI's impact on media and content creation. He acknowledges the transformative power of AI while expressing concerns about its implications for traditional media entities and individual creators.

Barry Diller (37:32): "People will come to us directly rather than indirectly through search mechanisms."

Diller underscores the importance of strong personal and corporate brands in the AI-driven landscape, suggesting that content creators who establish direct connections with their audiences will thrive despite technological disruptions.

Political Opinions and Reflections

Diller does not shy away from sharing his political views, particularly his criticisms of former President Donald Trump. He discusses the broader implications of Trump's presidency on American politics and media, expressing concerns about the concentration of power and the erosion of governmental checks and balances.

Barry Diller (50:19): "The three branches of government are all on the Republican side."

Diller advocates for a strategic approach to mitigating political instability, emphasizing the need to restore balance among the government's branches to prevent excessive consolidation of power.

Future Outlook and Closing Thoughts

As the episode draws to a close, Diller reflects on the rapid advancements in AI and their societal repercussions. He remains cautiously optimistic about the future, balancing his native optimism with apprehension about the unforeseen consequences of technological progress.

Barry Diller (44:02): "My native optimism is right now is burden covered, sat on top of."

Diller concludes by expressing the importance of adaptability and resilience in navigating the complexities of a rapidly evolving digital and political landscape. He reiterates his commitment to fostering innovation while safeguarding against the potential pitfalls of disruptive technologies.

Conclusion

Barry Diller's conversation with Kara Swisher offers a rare glimpse into the mind of a media visionary who has consistently stayed ahead of industry trends. From his foundational role in creating Fox to his strategic foresight in the digital era, Diller provides valuable lessons on leadership, innovation, and resilience. His candid reflections on personal growth, technological advancements, and political dynamics make this episode a compelling listen for anyone interested in the intersections of media, technology, and power.

Notable Quotes

• Barry Diller (00:02): "This is substantive. It's substantive."
• Barry Diller (09:00): "It's absurd. It's none of my business."
• Barry Diller (19:38): "Edgy, contrarian, not antisocial, but not conformist, social."
• Barry Diller (22:28): "Screens can be interactive."
• Barry Diller (37:32): "People will come to us directly rather than indirectly through search mechanisms."
• Barry Diller (50:19): "The three branches of government are all on the Republican side."
• Barry Diller (44:02): "My native optimism is right now is burden covered, sat on top of."

This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and reflections shared by Barry Diller, providing an informative overview for listeners and those interested in his influential career and perspectives.

Transcript

[Barry Diller]

How long does this go?

[Kara Swisher]

An hour.

[Barry Diller]

One solid hour?

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct, Barry. This is substantive. It's substantive.

[Barry Diller]

It's long. It is long.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today I'm talking to, honestly, one of my favorite people, Barry Diller, a media mogul, entertainment powerhouse, digital innovator whose fingerprints are all over American culture. If you ever watched a TV miniseries, sang along to the movie Grease, watch the Simpsons book trip online, or found love on an app, you owe Barry a little bit of gratitude. His memoir, who Knew? Has been making headlines in part because he writes about his sexuality. Barry's attraction to men was the worst kept secret in Hollywood, mostly because he didn't really try to fool anyone. Barry simply didn't say much about his love life one way or the other. And because he's been in a loving and romantic relationship with a woman for decades, Barry is married to fashion icon Dionne von Furstenberg. People like to gossip about what they assume their relationship is like, but the truth is Barry's private life is nowhere near as interesting as his career in business. Despite never going to college and showing next to no ambition, in his late teens and early 20s, Barry went from the mailroom at William Morris to an executive office at ABC. Then he became CEO of Paramount Pictures, CEO of 20th Century Fox, and eventually he became his own boss and launched iac. The media and Internet conglomerate has had a hand in Expedia, Match Group, Vimeo, Ticketmaster, HSN, Care.com, meredith, and the Daily Beast, just to name a few. I think it's pretty astounding that this run is still going. I'm excited to talk to him cause I'm always excited to talk to him. He's a very prescient person. He has lots of contrarian attitudes that are actually contrarian and not contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. He always challenges me and I challenge him back. And it's always an honest conversation, even when we don't agree. It's been a real pleasure to know him the many decades. And as you'll find this is this book. You really do get to know him in a way that I hadn't before. And we're going to talk about that and more. And our expert question for Barry comes from Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, who Barry has gotten to know as a friend too. So stick around. Support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commission, a wide range of investments and now there's even more to love. You can get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. This podcast is supported by Google. Hi folks.

[Barry Diller]

Logan here and Tulsi.

[Kara Swisher]

We're from the Google DeepMind team. We're rele sync Gemini 2.5 Pro, our most intelligent model. It's now available for you to test out in Google AI Studio. It's been awesome to see what everyone's been building from creating mini games from.

[Barry Diller]

A single prompt to debugging 50,000 lines of code.

[Kara Swisher]

We're excited to see what else you create. Try it out today on Google AI Studio by going to aistudio.google.com and let us know what you build. Support for this show comes from HubSpot. Let's be honest, most business software promises the world, but rarely delivers. Clunky interfaces, endless Tasks grabs an AI that somehow makes work more complicated. HubSpot is actually doing something interesting with Breeze, their suite of AI tools. And breez is built right into their customer platform so you can get more done faster. They even have a whole fleet of AI agents that do work for you. Breeze agents can do everything from creating content to prospecting to handling service tickets, all to help you get results fast. And it's working. Marketing, sales and service teams are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work every week. Go to HubSpot.com AI to get started today.

[Barry Diller]

It is on.

[Kara Swisher]

Barry, thank you for coming on. On.

[Barry Diller]

I'm happy to be on.

[Kara Swisher]

On how long?

[Barry Diller]

I don't know how on I'll be.

[Kara Swisher]

But I'm happy to be here. How long have we known each other?

[Barry Diller]

You know, I was wondering that. It's certainly. It's gotta be decades. I mean, certainly decades. But is it really 30?

[Kara Swisher]

Do you remember?

[Barry Diller]

Are we that old?

[Kara Swisher]

Do you remember you reaching out to me?

[Barry Diller]

No. Tell me.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, I will tell you. I was covering the Internet for the Wall Street Journal. I was the first person really covering it as a big thing.

[Barry Diller]

Well, that I knew.

[Kara Swisher]

And I got a phone call from two people. One was from Bob Iger who's like, can I meet you and talk to you about this Internet thing. And the other was from you. And you had me come to Los Angeles. You had just bought City Search. It must have been Ticketmaster, one of them. I think it was Ticketmaster. And I walked into your office and right on Sunset. Right. It was just off Sunset in that weird chrome building that what's his name built. Fred.

[Barry Diller]

Fred Rosen.

[Kara Swisher]

Fred Rosen, yes. And I walked in and I said, and you wanted to talk about the Internet. You were the first person utterly curious about what was happening. Nobody else in Hollywood was. No other media person was. And we sat down and I said, this is a lot of chrome. You go, this is not my office. It's Fred fucking Rosen. And that's what you. And that's how it started.

[Barry Diller]

Yeah. Well, that's a good beginning.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it was. And you were curious from the get go. And you had questions about all the Internet people. You were meeting them and other people weren't doing it. That's true. Yes, I was lucky.

[Barry Diller]

I mean, how lucky do you get when you get to be at kind of the beginning of a revolution?

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Barry Diller]

And you're there and you're curious.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And you got it. And other people were either scared of it or ignorant. And those were the two reactions I would get.

[Barry Diller]

Yeah. I was gonna say, I think I was really lucky. Lucky to be two things there at that time, which was total luck.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Barry Diller]

And lucky that I'm curious.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So the reason I'm saying, we've known each other for a long time. We've talked over the years about the various things you've done, all the various companies you've had, including in media and stuff like that. I have to tell you, I love this book. You sent it to me early. And you were worried about what people would think of it, Right? Of course. For lots of reasons. How could I not be right? Exactly. Anything you do just read. It was right in the beginning. I'm just gonna. Well, maybe I should have you read it.

[Barry Diller]

No, you do it.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, I'll do it. It was about your mom. She sent you. You're tough. From the minute on your parents, which I thought was really interesting in a fair way. I don't think it was unfair. She sent me to sleepaway camp for the first time when I was four. Yes, four. I was a few years below the minimum age requirement. But she who owned the camp and I stayed not with the campers, but with the camp owners in their house. For six wonderful weeks. I cozied up to the structure of a real family unit. Three years later, I Went back to the same camp. But I was old enough to be in the general population. I was miserable. I felt isolated and alone. In my desperation, I called my mother and begged her to come and pick me up. I remember waiting at the camp's entrance, sitting on a tree stump, alone for hours. She assured me she would come straight away. As each car approached, I peered up expectantly, then resumed my vigil. When it wasn't her inside, I stayed there all day. The head of the camp suggested several times I should come, but I refused. Then it got dark and I knew she wasn't going to come. I gave up on my mother that night. There would be no rescue. There was no one to protect me. I knew then I was on my own. That killed me.

[Barry Diller]

Kills me, too.

[Kara Swisher]

Here's why. I had the same experience. I had two very similar. Narcissistic mom and left me at school alone. And I remember thinking, she's not picking me up. And it was. And I. When I read this book, I said, I thought to myself, it's nice to finally meet you, Barry Diller. Oh. Which was interesting.

[Barry Diller]

There's these things, and I'm sure we have all. There's these snapshots that are, you know, somewhere in there, in that brain that are absolute perfect replicas of a moment. And I have that snapshot of probably 12 total snapshots.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. And I thought that was effective. And I want to start talking about this because you've been a creative producer for decades. You write in. This book is the first time I've been the. Itself. It's an unnerving experience. We obviously ran an excerpt.

[Barry Diller]

Boy, is that true.

[Kara Swisher]

In New York magazine. And the book's about to get published. Each other.

[Barry Diller]

Yes. Which I didn't know I was doing. How is that for being stupid?

[Kara Swisher]

Your publisher didn't tell you, Truly.

[Barry Diller]

Well, first of all, I thought an excerpt was. They go in and they take a piece and they pull it out. Excerpt. Right. What I didn't know, and I'm very. I mean, who can.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Naive is the word. When I think of. When I think of Barry, do you.

[Barry Diller]

Know when I think of. No, no. Believe me, I hold onto it. But this was really stupid. Because what I did not know, and I never would have agreed to if I had known, is they take little pieces from here, here, here and here. And that's an excerpt.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, it is.

[Barry Diller]

I didn't know they had the right to do that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, they do.

[Barry Diller]

They get picked anyway. They do.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, they did that with my book, too. They Took pieces of it for.

[Barry Diller]

I didn't like that.

[Kara Swisher]

You didn't like that. I know that you said, I'm not. You told Maureen Dow that you've shortened your book tour because, quote, you're one.

[Barry Diller]

Of the few I haven't.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. I would have been very angry. I'd have found you and hunted you down. But you said, I'm not up for interrogation on aspects of my personal life. We'll get to that in a second. Because I am the least interested in that part of the story, maybe as a gay person.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, thank you for that.

[Kara Swisher]

Only because I'm gonna ask you about it. Cause about the family part. Because that's what it was really important.

[Barry Diller]

You can do that.

[Kara Swisher]

Probably. Cause one, I'm gay. I already knew you were gay, by the way, or bisexual or however you want to say it. I don't really care. And the other one. Who cares. That's. The other part is like, I don't really care.

[Barry Diller]

Yes, I am.

[Kara Swisher]

And it wasn't a big secret.

[Barry Diller]

Why would you.

[Kara Swisher]

Exactly. It's none of my business. That said, obviously, it's entrancing media people, for some reason. We're not gonna go into that. I wanna start.

[Barry Diller]

Isn't it interesting, though, that people haven't read this book? People who read the excerpt of it, but nobody's read the damn thing. And the amazing thing is, the only thing that has been written is my relationship with a woman, Right. From which somehow they extract. He's come out of the closet, right? And to me, I think if I've come out of the closet, it is the most brightly lit room with a glass door. I mean, who. It's absurd.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, nobody talks that way anymore. I mean, I think back in the day when there was. Right.

[Barry Diller]

I'm not talking about 40 now, 60 years ago. Jesus, I'm old. But I'm talking about today. Why it's amazing to me. And that's really. Old media folk, right?

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Barry Diller]

Anybody young or anyone who lives in the contemporary world would say, what are you talking about? Out of the closet at 83 years old? From what? When everyone has known about my life.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Barry Diller]

For a long time.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, what I think it is is that it's. I used to have people ask me, you know, barry Diller's gay. I'm like, yeah, no shit, Sherlock. Like, and then they go, well, he's with that woman. I'm like, he loves her. Like, he has a better relationship than you do with your husband. Like, for sure. And they're closer and they're in love with each other. And they're like, how could that be?

[Barry Diller]

I'm like, it's so quite amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

I was like, what do you mean, how could it be? It's a love story.

[Barry Diller]

Isn't it amazing?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it's sort of like people ask me how I had a baby. Like, how did you do that? I'm like, easily. And actually much better. So I don't have to look at your husband or something like that. Now my children are gorgeous and tall because, you know, we get to pick. I wanna go into the family part of it in just a minute, but I wanna start with the book. In your own difficult childhood, you talk about your brother, who is a violently abusive drug addict who died of. You talk about the lack of sense of self, in part. And you do talk about your parents, sort of the lack of love in some ways, and the surprises you have.

[Barry Diller]

Well, the lack of love. Being a parent.

[Kara Swisher]

Being a parent, yes.

[Barry Diller]

They just didn't have a clue.

[Kara Swisher]

So why you end the book by saying, quote, being lucky enough to let a family build me into something resembling a person has been better than your success in business. I thought that was a pretty wonderful part and something I'd never. That I hadn't talked to you about. The idea of the family you've built with. It's Dionne Von Priggion. Dion Von. And your stepkids, Alexandre and Tatiana, and how they transformed. I want you to talk a little bit about family so you can explain to people when they have to fixate on.

[Barry Diller]

Fixate on what?

[Kara Swisher]

On the coming out part. Because you were building a family. That's what you were looking to do.

[Barry Diller]

Well, I don't know that I was looking to do it. Look, for sure there was a yearn. How could there not? If you don't have family? How could there not be a yearn for a family? I mean, I went down the street to find family in my friend's parents and. But that was, of course, not my family. And it was faux family. And while they may have been very nice to me in all different ways, I always had, which I didn't really realize, a yearn for a family. And it took me probably longer than many, but I was lucky enough that I met Dionne and that family, over decades, formed around me. But anyway, it's that I didn't have an active verb here. Basically, it happened to me and I wanted it, but I didn't know how to do it or take any. I don't like Goals anyway. But I didn't have any practical process. It just happened. And it was kind of just natural dominoes.

[Kara Swisher]

The book has a lot of insight cause you revolutionized multiple industries. But you say you're not a visionary, you can't see around corners. You keep saying this. Your process is one dumb step forward to back course correcting as I went. I think you're giving yourself. You're sort of downplaying what you've done. But explain your process.

[Barry Diller]

It is true.

[Kara Swisher]

Explain that process.

[Barry Diller]

It's because the thing is that for me, I love process. It's the only thing I actually really know is getting into a situation you get into out of curiosity. And when you're in it, you at best, if it's a new idea, you don't know anything. Nothing knows anything. And therefore you have to go truly one step after the other. That discovery, I love that and I think through that. So I say, I don't think it's vision. I think it is bouncing off the wall this way and that way until you know, you find a vein. And the sweetest moment is when you find a vein that you actually understand and know that no one else does. And so you get to then make these steps and learn as you go. I've thought that the best way to be a manager is never to come in on top of an organization, but to start building an organization from yourself. Meaning you are the first employee and you then in the early days, you are hiring every task around you. So you learn those tasks. And as you do that and build from the bottom up, you actually need to learn how to manage right. Whereas if you come in, as most people do, at middle levels or upper levels, and top down and do it that way, top down. I think it's one of the most faked, which is why most of those kinds of situations fail.

[Kara Swisher]

But you don't consider that a visionary and being prescient or, you know, you write about your internal motivation. You wrote, I wanted to count. Which is all that's ever really driven me. I wanted to do something that mattered. When did it start to feel like you counted? Did it? And why was that your motivation?

[Barry Diller]

Because I did not count. I mean, so obvious. I mean, all my psych stuff is just. It's almost so common that all my.

[Kara Swisher]

Not being hugged enough as a child.

[Barry Diller]

All my stuff is so obvious.

[Kara Swisher]

Classic. It's a classic.

[Barry Diller]

It's every iteration of classic. I mean, who else would have a nervous breakdown because they thought they were paralyzed, which is such a symbolic thing to Sexual whateverness. So the counting was because I didn't count and I felt that. And I definitely felt that I had no self. And so what did I want? I wanted that's. I would say the biggest imagery I ever had was counting in any way you want to slice that one. And it comes from such an obvious place.

[Kara Swisher]

So where was the first thing you did, you felt like you did something that mattered, that counted?

[Barry Diller]

Well, one of the things about that.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is different than status, by the way.

[Barry Diller]

Yes, completely. As well as like living in the moment, which I don't do, is that I don't even to this. Look, obviously I do count, but in my little whatever, you know, that primitive brain, I probably still don't think I do.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So you're still buried, sitting on this dump.

[Barry Diller]

In some ways I think you never. I don't know, some people can leave it. I don't think I can leave any of that.

[Kara Swisher]

So was there a project you remember thinking, yes, this is what.

[Barry Diller]

There's many times that I have been realistic enough to say, aha, look, I did that.

[Kara Swisher]

Give me an example.

[Barry Diller]

As soon as I say it, I wash it. I can't help it.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow. So give me.

[Barry Diller]

Well, the first real big time I did it was when this movie the week thing was a complete anomaly at television at that time. So it was very discounted. And the morning. That was when you used to get ratings that at 6 or 7am in the west coast in the morning of the first movie of the week that went on the air and it got this huge rating.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Was it Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, what was it?

[Barry Diller]

Tuesday, Tuesday, movie of the week, 7:30. ABC. And I had of course, this wow. I mean, I've had a lot of those wows. They don't last very long.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. But that one. Do you remember the movie Seven in Darkness? Wow. About who's in it?

[Barry Diller]

Horrible movie.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they all.

[Barry Diller]

I mean, think of more bromidic. This is the story. Seven in Darkness is its title. It is the story of seven blind people who crash in a plane.

[Kara Swisher]

So good.

[Barry Diller]

Crash in a plane. I slide on a mountain and. And they have to get down the mountain blind. Oh, Seven in Darkness.

[Kara Swisher]

You need to do that again.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, it's so interesting.

[Kara Swisher]

Who was the star? Cloris Leachman of all people.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, no. Milton Berle of all people, who was a comedian. None of your audience will ever know who that is. Plus a bunch of B, C and.

[Kara Swisher]

D. Well, those are the best kind.

[Barry Diller]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Barry Diller]

Ex movie people.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So in 1986, you created Fox, a new broadcast channel with Rupert Murdoch, who has loomed large in your life.

[Barry Diller]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Talk about breaking through the big three that dominated for decades. Cause you were sort of the maverick.

[Barry Diller]

Look, I talked about earlier. Finding a vein. It took us a while. We didn't start out. I wanted us to be an alternative network, but dumb at the moment. Dumbstruck, not having a clue other than I wanted to do this. I knew that the three networks were all alike.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Barry Diller]

They'd lost their personalities. They. They lost. As they got more and more successful and more and more dominant. They coved to like the center. They'd lost their personalities or their distinct personalities, which they had really, in the beginning of broadcasting and radio actually carried on to television. Anyway, I thought there should be a fourth network because I thought they were all the same. I didn't actually connect the next thing, which was they had to be an alternative. We had to be an alternative to the three. We couldn't just be the fourth. It took us a year or so. No. Yeah, about a year. And putting on series like they put on series until. All of which, by the way, didn't succeed until I read the script called married, which is called not the Cosbys, which was married with Children. If ever there was an alternative show to what was on television, then it was married with children. As soon as that happened, as soon as I saw it, I said, that's the vein. And then we started. And then the Simpsons came after that and cops and all these shows that were. And all these shows that were truly an alternative to the three networks. And that's what birthed fox. If we hadn't have done that, we would have failed.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And you were looking for that in that idea. And what would you say the vein is called if you had to name it? But what would that vein you're besides just different, what would you say it was?

[Barry Diller]

Edgy, contrarian, not antisocial, but not conformist, social. So no one would put on a show called in living color. I mean, it was just not inconceivable that anybody.

[Kara Swisher]

Which made them more creative, including the Simpsons.

[Barry Diller]

Well, of course, yeah. Much more fertile ground.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? Absolutely. But once the book focuses on your career in film and television, when you were one of the most important people in entertainment, which went after comma Barry Diller, one of the most important people in entertainment. But you're still an employee. So when you left fox, one of the things I do think you are an entrepreneur, Even though sometimes you say you're not. You absolutely are. You bought A stake in a home shopping challenge, qvc, and eventually became an Internet entrepreneur. Along the way, you had this epiphany, and you said it to me early on in our relationship. Screens don't have to be just for narrative, for telling stories. Screens can interact with consumers. So why do you think so many people miss that? And where did this startling revelation come to you besides that? It's obvious, right?

[Barry Diller]

Oh, no, it came to me. And there's a screen right over there. It came to me again in the most serendipitous way, which is I went to QVC because Dion, my wife, was thinking about selling on qvc and she asked me, she said, you should go see this thing anyway.

[Kara Swisher]

In Florida?

[Barry Diller]

No, no, no, in Westchester, Pennsylvania.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, right.

[Barry Diller]

And so I go to this place to just check out what is this QVC thing. And I saw this primitive convergence of telephones and television sets and computers working together. And I saw a screen like that, a little smaller, a green screen. And on it were the visualization of the calls that were coming in as products were being put up, offering products. And when a product was up, you'd see the phone lines go like this, and then they would come down, and then it would go up and come down. And it just struck me, huh? That's a screen. I only know screens for telling stories. So passive screens, telling stories on a screen. Screens can be interactive, by the way, a new word that wasn't an active word then. I don't even know if interactive is.

[Kara Swisher]

What year was this?

[Barry Diller]

This is 92, 93. And I was struck by that. Thank God it was. Then by three years later, the Internet comes along and I had this primitive understanding in my fingertips of what this was about.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Keraswisher comes from Deleteme. Deleteme makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. These days, it's easier than ever to find personal information online. Having your address, phone number, number and family members names hanging out on the Internet can have actual consequences in the real world and make everyone vulnerable. More and more online partisans and nefarious actors will find this data and use it to target political rivals, civil servants, and even outspoken citizens posting their opinions. With Delete Me, you can protect your personal privacy and the privacy of your business from doxxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. I've actually gotten to try Delete Me. And as always, I'm surprised by how much information is out there on me. And even though I'm incredibly careful about my privacy, I'm surprised how many numbers are out there, how much inaccuracy is there. You can take control of your data and keep your private light private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and use the promo code CARA at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and enter the code Cara at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Kara code Kara support for this show comes from Quince Getting dressed in the summer is hard. You want to look and feel put together, but on the other hand you don't want to melt in the heat. Quince says they have pieces that check Both boxes like 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Luxe Swimwear, Italian leather platform shoes and so much more. And the best part is that everything from quints is priced 50 to 80% less than you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup. And Quince says they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Quint has sent me many items. I really like everything I get. I am right now wearing a Quint sports bra. I think they're great. They work really well. I have a suitcase of theirs. I've got a T shirt that I really like. They're super comfortable, they feel luxe and they don't cost that much. I really like everything I've gotten from there. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quince. Go to quince.com cara for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Care to get free shipping and 365 day returns? Quince.com Kara.

[Barry Diller]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Barry Diller]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Barry Diller]

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[Kara Swisher]

The things you said in the book. You also have a quote from Robert Woodruff, the former president of Coca Cola, who said, the world belongs to the discontented. That really struck out. You write the greatest single explanation of those who succeed greatly. I'm not particularly discontented, but I agree with you on this. How do you talk to young people when you ask for advice? Cause that's kind of a dire way to think about it. If you're unhappy, you'll be successful.

[Barry Diller]

I don't know that it's. Well, is it?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't find you to be unhappy.

[Barry Diller]

No, I'm not unhappy, but I'm definitely discontented. And I think there's a big difference. Okay, explain the difference between the two. Discontented means that. That whatever is known. Sorry, can I say it any better than what the word picture. That forms for me into some form that anyone can understand, which is that if you go along with things and don't have willfulness, meaning you see something and you're willful about it because it needs to be corrected. That discontent and willfulness is the difference, I think, between mattering or not mattering.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you discontented, would you say constantly still?

[Barry Diller]

No. No, no.

[Kara Swisher]

No less so. No, I think you are. In a good way, not in a bad way.

[Barry Diller]

No, I'm definitely. Listen, I no longer. In my concept of a job. I haven't had a job in a long time. And I don't mean that as an employee. I mean. And to my misfortune, actually. And I look for things where I can actually go back to work as I understand it, which is very linear and very one dumb step. But mostly I pass.

[Kara Swisher]

You pass? Why?

[Barry Diller]

Why?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I can tell from this book. Why?

[Barry Diller]

Because I. No. Cause I have other interests and I. And I'm still interested in. I'm not interested in everyday business. It really does bore me. I mean, if you just give me an ordinary shepherding of a successful business, please, I'll go Venezuela. But if you give me something that's got a challenge in it, then kind of, I'm up for it.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Let's talk about your business. You've been running IEC since your former CEO left earlier this year to run a home services company, Angie. Which you spun off from iec. You recently added a board member after facing pressure. You've got an activist investor, as many people do. And board changes. The stock is down. What is your plan right now for iac? Because you are running it. You do have a job.

[Barry Diller]

La la la. Yeah, I guess I do, but not. I'm not. I have very good People that have good responsibilities in the company. And so I think there's enough creative process that doesn't absolutely need me. I can stir it somewhat at the top and challenge what they come up with. But I have such a long. I've never sold any stock. So I have an endless long term point of view with it. I'd rather the stock not be down, except that it being down from a high is healthy.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Barry Diller]

It was at 140 because what is. I don't even know. Well, 140 at some point.

[Kara Swisher]

It was during the pandemic.

[Barry Diller]

Yeah, okay, well, silly days. But I think that if properly managed, so to speak, that's a healthy environment. That's good. This company of ours now, 25 years or somewhat more than that, has gone through several revolutions and we spun off 11 public companies. So we are at a period now and we've been in it for probably two years where the two companies that we had left both post Covid, some self inflicted, some conditional, have had huge problems that they had to get through. And that took like two years. And we're. Andrew, we spun off. That was one of them, the one that's still there. The biggest enterprise is ddm, which is the world's largest print and digital publisher is doing really well now. But it had a listen, we bought Meredith Joan, People magazine and all these other magazines and we had to bring them over to a digital model because they hadn't been digitized. And that took us about two years. But now we're outperforming every other publisher so that's good. So we have a really good going business and we have capital and now cause the larder is barer now we gotta get new stuff.

[Kara Swisher]

So when I last interviewed you for the podcast in 2023, you praised for example Netflix business model and said they had an evil genius for luring their competitors into overspending or streaming. Many years ago you gave me the single best quote I've ever gotten from someone which you said, Hollywood is so inbred it's a miracle their children have teeth. I don't know if you remember.

[Barry Diller]

Did I say that?

[Kara Swisher]

You did say that. So good. It was so good. Talk a little bit about where Hollywood is because Netflix certainly Disney is gaining momentum and Warner Brothers Discovery streaming efforts were profitable last year. Not hugely profitable. Fox is gonna launch a new streaming service. How do you look at that now?

[Barry Diller]

Well, it's kind of. Listen, I did say okay, you can give me not visionary but some prescience which is I think more than Five years ago or seven years ago, I said Netflix one.

[Kara Swisher]

You did.

[Barry Diller]

And they did. They won. And after they won, along came two other tech overlords, Amazon and Apple. And they, with unlimited resources and a different business model, are in streaming in a parallel technology led manner that has left, quote, Hollywood hegemony gone forever. It is not that any of these companies that over invest in streaming, which many did, thinking they could compete with Netflix, is the great fool's game. I'm not saying they won't build over time profitable businesses, they probably will. But they will never dominate ever again. The game is gone. And it doesn't mean they won't exist, but they will not only be smaller businesses, but the more important thing is for that word hegemony is that in the history of entertainment, up until this period happened with Netflix, anything that came along in media, Hollywood bought and submerged into its core. So they held this for 75 years. And any VCRs came, cable came, all of these things were sucked up through this power of these, just the way.

[Kara Swisher]

Tech companies are doing.

[Barry Diller]

Big media companies until Netflix, it's gone now. What it means is they'll no longer dominate media ever again. They can't. Will they still have businesses that do well, but will they have great growth? I think it's impossible.

[Kara Swisher]

It's impossible. So one of the things we also talked about at the time, and I think because there's another thing coming, you were working, putting together a coalition of publishers to sue AI companies.

[Barry Diller]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Effort to get Congress to narrow copyright laws so that AI companies couldn't scrape copyright.

[Barry Diller]

Although you can't put your, you know, putting your hand up on the train track in front of tech is like a, like.

[Kara Swisher]

Exactly. But you said it was a delusion.

[Barry Diller]

For bubbles they run over.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, but you said it was a delusion. They make their own economic relation of these big entities. But in May you did sign a partnership agreement with Microsoft and OpenAI. Yes. Vox also has a deal with OpenAI. Talk about why, when you're saying that you can't put your hand up in front of them, what does that mean? And how do you look at AI now?

[Barry Diller]

Well, what you can do is of course you can. It is possible, you know, my brain out loud is it might have been possible a year or two ago to have gotten a law narrowly passed that redefined fair use. In which case the economic, the tracks that the economics went on, train tracks they went on, would have gone more to publishers. But that did not happen once. That did not happen then. Unless you define Fair use narrowly, all content is going to be sucked up in the maw of AI. It's reality. Will you get paid for it? As we started to get paid and you say Vox is starting and other publishers will begin to get paid. Yes, they will. Will they take anything but the tiniest sliver share of whatever is to be actually gained? I doubt it. But they will. I won't say they won't survive, but they won't giantly prosper because that's almost impossible. So AI and I'm not gonna do the bimbo of change everything we know here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, please don't.

[Barry Diller]

But if you have. And I think more and more personal brands will be able to survive because their brand speaks clearly and loudly. I think substack for instance, or forms of substack or your podcast or others podcasts where there is no possible disintermediation for you. There just isn't.

[Kara Swisher]

It's a nice little business is what it is.

[Barry Diller]

It doesn't mean that you're going to build some giant enterprise. But can you earn severely large amounts of money? Yes, of course you can. And brands at a higher scale than an individual, for instance, I think are People magazine brand. So long as we invest in it and build that brand, that is our best defense against AI. But that means people will come to us directly rather than indirectly through search mechanisms, Right?

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Barry Diller]

And that's the only salvation.

[Kara Swisher]

Cause you're making something someone wants. Right. And they can only get it from you. Yeah, that's what I would say.

[Barry Diller]

So long as you keep to that. Rather than anything generic. Anything generic, anything without brand potential, individual or corporate brand potential is going to be valueless.

[Kara Swisher]

Valueless and therefore not so one of the things that we have every episode is an expert. Send us a question. It's sort of in that genre. Let's yours.

[Barry Diller]

Hi, I'm Sam Altman.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm the CEO of OpenAI and a huge fanboy of Barry Diller.

[Barry Diller]

Very few people manage to succeed to.

[Kara Swisher]

Such an extent in one industry and.

[Barry Diller]

It'S almost unheard of to succeed so.

[Kara Swisher]

Much in two industries. And so my question is, what have you learned and how have you done it? I'll add to that. It was very nice question. In the book you write, instinct and grit were all we had. I think what he was asking for is how do you shift between industries? He's probably looking for his next gig, I guess.

[Barry Diller]

Well, it's relatively rare. I did it by creating a vacuum and getting lucky enough, as I said, to land at this place where I had this epiphany about something earlier than other people got it or that it developed. So that was my experience. I think people shifting. I think it's relatively rare. I shifted because I did not want to work for anyone anymore. I wanted something of my own. I didn't want to continue this delusion that I'd always had that this company was mine. And that's how I acted. And when I realized that was a delusion, I wanted to see, can I do anything on my own? That was like a forcing mechanism. And then once I forced myself out onto my own I also thought, I don't really wanna repeat myself. So those were two things. One, I wanted out, and one, I didn't want to.

[Kara Swisher]

Dancing monkey, I call it.

[Barry Diller]

I didn't wanna just run another movie company. I'd already run three by that time. No, two. And then I had a third with Universal for a year and a half after that. And I didn't wanna do that. And I didn't wanna become a producer or something like that.

[Kara Swisher]

You didn't want a big deal?

[Barry Diller]

No. So I created this vacuum. So it was more negatives than it was positives. It was two negatives. I wanted out and I didn't want to repeat myself.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. I was always saying I was a bad employee and I don't want to talk to you anymore. That was what I would say. I can't talk to you anymore. I just. I'm tired of it.

[Barry Diller]

That's good.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think a future Barry Dealer would be able to succeed when they strike out on their own? You know, a lot of corporations and creative decisions will be made using algorithms and AI. And the things Sam is doing.

[Barry Diller]

Do I think it's still possible? Yeah, but I don't have a clue how. I do think, as I said earlier, bimbo, talk everybody about AI. But the implications for it are so conceptually enormous that I think. And it's all gonna happen really soon. It's like. That's the thing Sam says, which is when he used to say to me when I first started knowing Sam, eight, 10 years ago before, I think he was still at Y or something.

[Kara Swisher]

Y Combinator. Yeah.

[Barry Diller]

And he said 30 to 50 years. And then it was 20 to 30 years. And then about two or three years ago, he said five years.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Which you yourself took in because you told me you were shifting your employee base and trying to figure that out.

[Barry Diller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so it's coming really fast now. And so its consequences are gonna be in the next five to 10 years. I mean, it's revolutionary consequences are gonna be in. And that convulsiveness in the next, I can't predict what that is. But can I make the analogy that is this the same as agrarian going to industrialize? I don't know. I mean, this was a nation of farmers. I don't think it's as neat. But test it. Which is so around later part mid, later part railroads came and stuff. And so there's this enormous change of rural, agrarian to industrial and it was a huge disruption. Is it an analogy to today where, by the way, many things changed but many things opened up that compensated for that change? Correct. Are we at a period now where the kind of changes that are going to happen actually do not have positive pockets of opportunity?

[Kara Swisher]

What do you think?

[Barry Diller]

And I don't have a frigging clue really. Except. Except that I have so much native optimism that I doubt it.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow.

[Barry Diller]

That I doubt it.

[Kara Swisher]

You doubt.

[Barry Diller]

My native optimism is right now is burden covered, sat on top of. Because I think the consequences of this are like nothing we've seen before.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Karis Fisher comes from Fresh Air on npr. FRESH AIR is an award winning podcast with host Terry Gross and co host Tanya Mosley. When Terry Gross received a national Humanities Medal from President Obama, he said her interviews, quote, pushed public figures to reveal personal motivations behind extraordinary lives. And when you tune into FRESH AIR from npr, that's what you hear. Interviews that dive into the minds of some of society's most influential figures. They interview a wide range of voices like Selena Gomez, Jeremy Strong, Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, Nikki Glaser, Billie Eilish and more. And as a listener, you can get to know them a little more as they discuss topics ranging from politics, music, fashion, culture and more. I listen to FRESH AIR forever, especially Terry Gross, and they're all memorable. I learned more about jazz from Terry Gross than anybody else. I'm not particularly interested in jazz, but somehow I listen to the them. Fresh AIR has an enormous archive and with Fresh Air plus, you get curated lists of interviews spun forward to the issues of today. If you add Fresh Air to your roster of stellar daily podcasts, you can stay in the loop and dive into deep conversations on culture, news and issues. It is the OG Interview Podcast. Really listen to FRESH AIR from NPR to hear some of the most insightful interviews anywhere. Wherever you get your podcasts, support for this show comes from Nordstrom. Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe, discover stylish options under a hundred dollars from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy, too, with free shipping and free returns in store order pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app Map. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one.

[Barry Diller]

You can hire top rated pros, see.

[Kara Swisher]

Price estimates and read reviews all on the app download. Today I'm going to talk about politics and I want to end up talking about the book at the end. The one more question about the book. You were a prominent Democratic donor. We talked about a lot. You said before the election of President Trump was a rotten person. You've always been very clear. Gates learned from you. I guess when he was just talking about Elon recently, saying that he's killing children across the globe, you said you hoped that he would be pushed into this dust.

[Barry Diller]

Isn't that amazing, though?

[Kara Swisher]

I love that he did it.

[Barry Diller]

No, but isn't it amazing Elon Musk who do this flash thing? Cause I think it's really accurate. So U.S. open, and I'm in this one of those like, boxes things. And Elon is with our little group of like eight people or whatever. And there are 20,000 people in that stadium.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And these boxes are open for people who don't know. It's not like, yeah, yeah, no, no.

[Barry Diller]

They're all exposed. And I was just amazed. It was hardly a surprise to me that you know Elon's celebrity. But I'm telling you, a third of the faces in that audience were looking at him and not at this champ game that was taking place. And whenever there was a break, I'm telling you, hundreds of people came on the robe, the walkway just below us to take snappies and to say, say hello. Yeah, you know, will you please sign my thing? It's the most important thing to me. It was like. And I thought, wow, I've seen a ton of celebrity in my life.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Barry Diller]

I ain't never seen that one.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Barry Diller]

And if today he was in that box, they'd throw tomatoes a day.

[Kara Swisher]

They would.

[Barry Diller]

And it's Only September to May. I've never seen anything as. Well, look, I, you know, I personally like him, but I also think, I don't know if I said this, but he's like entitled to his megalomania for his accomplishments. He's entitled to megalomania. Unfortunately, if you wear a megalomaniac, your tuning fork ear is lost. And he lost it. And so that's why he did not need saying, I want to go and cut waste out of government, but do it with a thoughtful, kind hand to come in. He even thought of it with a chainsaw as an imagery.

[Kara Swisher]

When you're actually the greatest person on.

[Barry Diller]

Earth, firing people and you are someone of vast resources is so forget everything else tuneless, that this is what. That's why people would throw tomatoes at em anyway.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think that Trump was the reason for it? Cause you have called Trump, you said he should be pushed in the dusty history. You said he's an evil character. He's still gonna be one of the most consequential presidents. I think he's pulled down Elon Musk and used Elon as a heat shield in a really.

[Barry Diller]

I think that may be tr. But you know, I don't, I. When he got elected this time, you know, in the first four years, I said I'll either move to Canada or join the resistance. I joined the resistance was not the biggest cheerleader, but I certainly was in that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you were.

[Barry Diller]

This time I thought, you know, all right, give it a try, see what happens. You know, I've thought this about the tariff thing, which I think, I think it's gonna end in tears. But you know what? It's a big gamble. I like big gambles. Maybe he can pull it off. Maybe manufacturing can come back. Maybe it can end taxes for people where you just simply get money from others. Okay, give it to him. Let him. Don't be in this derangement syndrome. And let's see, giving it a little good spirit rather than violent, negative, spiritual. And that's my attitude right now. And you know, unfortunately, when I then, you know, it's hard to maintain that attitude. When you read that we are against immigrants of all kind unless they're white South Africaners.

[Kara Swisher]

So it's not working.

[Barry Diller]

When you hear it, it's like, oh, Jesus.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Barry Diller]

Oh Jesus.

[Kara Swisher]

See, I love the feeling that he could have been a very successful president if he just didn't. You know, one of the things I'm hearing from people is I'm for deporting illegal immigrants, but not that way. I'M for reforming government, but not that way. Like the way they're doing it is casually cruel, strange, weird characters.

[Barry Diller]

Yeah, it's.

[Kara Swisher]

Were you surprised by the. I would say an unhinged nature of this? He's just going for it with everything, whether it's immigrants, whether it's the plane, whether it's.

[Barry Diller]

It's pushing everything imaginable. It's pushing. It's pushing. So much on the table is either it's either someone or he or somebody said we're going to do everything full force all at once, which is scare them all into utter submission or be able to keep changing the day's news because we've got so much that we're throwing out. I actually think it's great that he's done that. I'd rather it.

[Kara Swisher]

You see it.

[Barry Diller]

Well, better than the boiling frog. You know, I don't want to be. I don't want a slow burn. So I'd rather get it all out there. Okay. Let's see if any good comes of these things or anything, you know, solid comes and let's make a judgment when that happens rather than in.

[Kara Swisher]

Any prescience right now. Where you think it's going? I think it's not gonna go.

[Barry Diller]

As I said, I doubt it, but I don't know yet.

[Kara Swisher]

So to be clear, instead of being horrified by Trump, you think pushback is Trump derangement Syndrome or not? I can't tell.

[Barry Diller]

No, sorry.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think Trump derangement does exist? Because I do think that people are getting out of the way.

[Barry Diller]

No, no, no. Yes, it does.

[Kara Swisher]

It does.

[Barry Diller]

Of course it exists.

[Kara Swisher]

So that's not the successful strategy right now.

[Barry Diller]

I think that's. I absolutely think it's a terrible strategy. I think the only strategy for. I think the only strategy is there are three branches of government. Those three branches of government are not on the. Forget progressive, which. I hate the term progressive, although parts of it, of course I like wouldn't. But. But the three branches of government are all on the Republican side, on the side. I want one of them back. So all work has to go in 26 to get Congress out of being what it is now, which is non existent. And that's the goal. Don't do anything else. Don't yell, don't complain. Don't go off doing really scary things, which is start doing riots that then cause reaction to riots, which cause civil war or horrible, worse things. Elect a Congress that can take power back from the presidency. Presidency has too much power. No one should have that kind of Power. No individual can have that kind of power. I don't care who that individual is. But no one can have that power. And the only way to get it back is get right, which is, I mean. Or wait till 28 and elect someone else.

[Kara Swisher]

One of the things, though, that's happening in media is this bending knee thing. You've defended, for example, Sherry Redstone as she tried to settle this law.

[Barry Diller]

It's so amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Barry Diller]

Even this morning, I had breakfast with whatever an important person we said to me, how could you do that about Sherry Redstone? I've had a number of people. I only did it because when someone asked me the question, I thought to myself, because I never. That's her situation, which is she really was in technical bankruptcy. And if it costs you settling an insane suit, okay, settle it. But I have been more criticized for that than anything, as, like, how could you say that's a right thing to do?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think you said it's a right thing to do. It's a thing you have to do. You said you bend the knee if.

[Barry Diller]

There'S a guillotine to the guillotine, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. You don't want to get your head cut off. Right, Right.

[Barry Diller]

Anyway.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Barry Diller]

All right.

[Kara Swisher]

So you also defended Jeff Bezos, but we're not getting into that today.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, yes, I will do that. But you don't need me to do it.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I don't need you to do that. But is there a downstream consequence to this to which to these attacks on the press and stuff you yourself are facing? Attacks on the press, the media, these lawsuits, these things.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, my God.

[Kara Swisher]

You guys are getting a defamation lawsuit at Daily Beast, which you own, by Chris Lacivita, for defamation. Is that a problem, do you think? Because they're using it. Nuisance lawsuits.

[Barry Diller]

Of course. It's a terrible problem. Again, first of all, one of the things I really do believe is that it's only three years and some months. I want it to be shorter by getting Congress to curtail the powers of the presidency. And for all of those reasons, that's now a year and a half. Right. But in three and a half years, or three and whatever months, there'll be a new election and Trump will not be the president, no matter what I believe. So I'm kind of have equanimity about this period. It's that I do think there's another scenario, a very dark scenario. I don't think it's gonna happen, but it could happen. That's why I want to want the that's why I feel so strongly about 26. But I think that the things that are happening in the media and the things that are happening in the politicizing, in the politicization, that's gone so edged. That's why I said, and I really do. I hate the woke left and I hate the woke right. So when we have this application now that's having this downstream effect, this can be. This could be permanent. Could be.

[Kara Swisher]

Could be.

[Barry Diller]

So it does need to be fought. I love Harvard. And I would. If you asked me about Harvard a month ago, I would say I hate Harvard. But this new guy said there are lots of things wrong with Harvard that I'm going to fix, but government isn't going to order me to do it. I love the law firms. My sympathy will go to Sherry for guillotine this. But to law firms who are fighting back are going. No law firms who will be maybe a tenth less successful. That they folded is heinous.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I agree.

[Barry Diller]

I hold them totally to account.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. Okay. Two more questions. It's still a little earlier, but the jockeying for the 2028 presidential Democratic nomination start. You're still a Dem, presumably on the Democratic.

[Barry Diller]

I am, yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Is there anybody who you think could win in 2018? The names would be Gavin Newsom, Alexander Ocasio Cortez, Gretchen Whitmer, Andy Beshear, who I just met, by the way. Pete Buttigieg, Wes Moore, who I just interviewed.

[Barry Diller]

Why do you not say Ginny?

[Kara Swisher]

I get them, too. Josh Shapiro, Ronald.

[Barry Diller]

Ginny Raimondo.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, Ginni Raimondo. Okay, I'll add her. Okay, then that's the one. J.B. pritzker. Gina Raimondo.

[Barry Diller]

Yeah, what about it?

[Kara Swisher]

Which one of these? What do you think about the name of the.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, many of them. I mean, I don't have anyone at this moment. I don't want to have anyone. I want someone to resonate, I think.

[Kara Swisher]

What do you want from that candidate? Who.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, I want. If we do not have a centrist, sensible. I mean, obviously centrist left, but centrist candidate who understands. I blame the Dem. I don't blame Trump. I blame the Democrats. I blame Biden. I blame 30 years of elitist, condescending, progressive, extreme politics for how we got into this position. So I want the antidote to that.

[Kara Swisher]

The antidote to that.

[Barry Diller]

Loud and clear.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, very last question. This is a bracingly honest memoir. I expected nothing less. And I think you're tougher on yourself and more open about your insecurities than anyone could have expected. Do you think it's worth it to have done it? Do you recommend other people examine their lives carefully and share this much about.

[Barry Diller]

Themselves right this minute? Absolutely not. Why a month or two from now? Because it's. Because the truth is, it's so exposing. And I didn't. And I didn't, you know, my ability to compartmentalize. I didn't get it. I didn't think that was gonna happen. It's not that I didn't think anything was gonna happen happen. I just. Whatever. So when I saw. When I. And it's not the biggest. Hardly Newsday, but when I realize I go out into the street and people know me now in a totally different way, it's that. And I've always forget my fears of exposure at that earlier time. I've always been private. I always. I like privacy. I like that for whatever reason. It's very rare, but I like that. Okay, it's gone. And right now, I feel it. Like, I feel exposed. And I don't. I like what I wrote, but I don't like that consequence.

[Kara Swisher]

Something happened on the street where someone said something you did when they said.

[Barry Diller]

That I did like that you like.

[Kara Swisher]

That you heard from someone now that you're exposed.

[Barry Diller]

I've heard only great things. I mean, I've heard so many great things that it's like. It's only great. Then that bewilders me because I have a hard time with that. But of course I like it. And people have been extraordinarily nice and in the last 10 days since the New York thing came out, nevertheless, I also feel exposed and that.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what the problem is, Barry? And we'll end on this. They like you. They really like you. All right, thank you. You have to say bye.

[Barry Diller]

Oh, bye. Bye.

[Kara Swisher]

Bye. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor, Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eric Litke. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you count, and if not, you don't count at all. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. Nobody knows your customers better than your team, so give them the power to make standout content with Adobe Express. Brand kits make following design rules a breeze, and Adobe quality templates make it easy to create pro looking flyers, social posts, presentations and more. You don't have to be a designer to edit campaigns, resize ads and translate content. Anyone can. And a couple click and collaboration tools put feedback right where you need it. See how you can turn your team into a content machine with Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on brand content. Learn more at Adobe. Com Express Business.