← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
The way I got a job was I called Larry Kramer at the Washington Post and started insulting him and then went down there like it was. I had a rejection letter and a form letter and then I just ignored it completely.
- [00:12]
Jodi Kantor
Well, first of all, it sounds to me like a uniquely Kara Swishian thing to be able to get a job by insulting somebody. I'm not sure anybody but you could pull that off. It's on.
- [00:29]
Asad Herndon
It is on.
- [00:33]
Kara Swisher
Hi, everyone from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Jodi Kanter, a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative reporter for the New York Times. Jodi has been covering employment, the workplace, and power for decades. In 2017, she and Megan Tuohy broke the story of sexual abuse allegations against Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein. More recently, Jody's been writing about the Supreme Court and how the notoriously tight lipped institution has made itself even more secretive by imposing NDA on clerks and employees. Now she's applying her years of experience, plus the tools she's acquired as a reporter, to a guide for young people starting out in their careers. In it, Jody acknowledges the difficult reality that faces recent graduates, including AI, economic uncertainty and political chaos, and tries to offer practical yet empathetic advice. I think Jodi is one of our best reporters in the nation. She's done an astonishing job at the New York Times covering very difficult topics. But I think it was really interesting that she shifted to this because she has kids of her own and also is really concerned about where young people are going. And it's really important to get advice from someone like her. Let's get to my conversation with Jodi Kantor. Our expert question today comes from Vivian Tu, host of the Vox Media podcast Net Worth and Chill, which is all about navigating money and personal finance, especially for younger people. It's a great conversation, so stick around.
- [02:08]
Jodi Kantor
Foreign.
- [02:13]
Kara Swisher
With Kara Swisher comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt. Oh, I love the Chevy Bolt. I have mine. How long is 25 minutes? The quick workout or a stop to the grocery store. It's also the amount of time it takes you to charge your Chevy bolt. As I said, I drive the Chevy Bolt myself, an older version. And now the bolt is back and better than ever.
- [02:32]
Jodi Kantor
I may have to trade it in.
- [02:33]
Kara Swisher
You can charge from 10% to 80% in just 25 minutes. With public DC fast charging, that's about half the length of this very podcast. Explore Chevy's most affordable EV@chevy.com Bold actual charge times will vary. See Owner's Manual for details and limitations. Let me say again, I love my car. Never had a problem with it. Best car I've ever owned. Buy the Chevy Bolt
- [02:58]
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- [03:53]
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- [04:36]
Kara Swisher
It is on Jody, thanks for coming
- [04:40]
Jodi Kantor
on on my pleasure. And I mean, I'm excited to be with you and also I feel like I have to stipulate. Carrie, you've given me some pretty good career advice over the years, so it's meaningful to have this conversation with you.
- [04:51]
Kara Swisher
What have I told you that's like,
- [04:54]
Jodi Kantor
that's not the question. The question is, what have you told me that is repeatable in a public setting?
- [05:00]
Kara Swisher
Oh, okay. All right. Get the fuck out of Jodge is what I'm always telling people. Know your value is one of my
- [05:06]
Jodi Kantor
favorite things you have said that to me.
- [05:07]
Kara Swisher
I've said that to you. And that's, I think, important. I always feel like they're lucky to have you at the New York Times rather than. I mean, you're lucky to be there, too, but they're lucky to have you. And that's the one thing I always told you.
- [05:18]
Jodi Kantor
Well, thank you.
- [05:19]
Kara Swisher
Anyway, let's talk about your book. This was such a. When you called me, I was. I don't know, I was driving somewhere and I was like, what? Like, I was expecting, I'm gonna do an investigative piece on who knows what manner of corrupt person you could look at at any time. But your book, how to Start, was inspired by a commencement speech you gave who were capping off a tumultuous senior year at Columbia University last May. Talk about how that inspired this cause. Again, it came out of left field for me, I guess. I know. You know, I didn't think you were gonna do that so well.
- [05:53]
Jodi Kantor
So a year ago, I got this invitation. That's a real honor, but also, frankly, kind of a problem. Columbia, where I went undergrad, asks me to give the undergraduate commencement address. And my friends are like, call in sick. Don't do it. Because this is peak Columbia chaos. I mean, you remember, it's just like one disaster after another on this campus. And my friends were like, you're gonna get booed. But something in me was like, give me those kids for 15 minutes. Because I was really upset to see what had happened to the school. So I said, okay, great. You know, I'm honored. I'll do it. But I just wanna spend some time, because this is obviously a room. I read really carefully before giving this speech. And also, I mean, let's talk about the tension here, which is gonna be throughout this graduation season. The assignment of a commencement speech is to be uplifting. If you don't do that, you have completely failed. And yet, that's a very hard setting, and this is a very hard time to be uplifting in.
- [06:54]
Kara Swisher
And the hard school that had undergone all manner of back and forth and continued to do so under the Trump administration, completely.
- [07:02]
Jodi Kantor
So then when I met with the students, they did such a great thing. I mean, Kara, you and I love hard questions, right? It's like, forget the easy questions. Why bother? They said to me, we don't want you to talk about Trump or Israel or Gaza or even the university administration many of us have come to hate. They said, our class, even with all of its political differences, we are united in one question, which is, how do you Start your life's work in this crazy environment. And the question really resonated with me. I mean, for one thing, I've covered employment for many, many years as, you know, like these big stories about Amazon and other companies. But also the Weinstein story was it's about employment and it was about entry level employment. Right. So many of those women were new on the job. So I had a lot to say about that. I have a 20 year old daughter who is in this exact demographic. But also in the years since the Weinstein, my partner Megan Tuohy and I, my work partner, she and I have been invited to a lot of campuses to speak. And you know, we get the journalism kids, but what we have really gotten is questions about like, like how do I make my work life meaningful? And over those years, you know, in my reporting, I had seen this digital transformation of the workplace that's now culminating in the AI moment. But also among the young people, I had seen a rising sense, dread, cynicism, trepidation about the workplace that I was very concerned about. And so the speech became like, look, I'm a reporter. I try not to make myself, you know, the center of the story. But in this moment I was like, I'm stepping out from behind these stories and I have something to say to them because the stakes are really high here. They have individual stakes in their work life and our stake in work is collective. So I gave the speech and, and thank God it went well. And then I couldn't stop writing. I couldn't stop thinking about these kids, couldn't stop writing. People were watching the speech on YouTube, so I was getting more questions. The Columbia students were coming to me with questions. And all last summer, you know, my day job at the Times is that I am delving into the secrets of the United States Supreme Court. So I am a busy person, but I couldn't stop writing. I kept waking up at like 6 in the morning just being like, I want to help these people.
- [09:38]
Kara Swisher
So when you were doing this, it interested you, it sparked your interest and you had very heavy duty investigative work. But in 2016, former New York Times editor Dean Bequet gave the commencement address. Bequet told the graduates, don't let ambition blind you. And your message was what? Because, you know, the idea of unhealthy obsession with money and status at elite colleges has been an issue at the center of a lot of, you know, whether it's Stanford, whether it's Columbia, which wasn't quite the same when I graduated, which was 105 years ago. But what was the thing you were trying to get through?
- [10:11]
Jodi Kantor
Well, I've watched Dean's speech. I love it. But when I was listening to you a second ago, the question was, well, what is ambition? What is ambition? Is it just ambition to make money or is it ambition to really take on hard things? And this is a hard time to think about this. Here is the gist of what I want young people to know. I have just seen so much. I have seen bad career advice and I have seen no career advice. And so this is my alternative to those two things. When I look around my life, my reporting, the people I've covered, when I look at your career, the people who I think are both most successful and happiest at work because we want both. Their careers are a combination of two things, craft and need. Craft is having a special skill, having something that other people don't know how to do. You know, the craft of surgery is an obvious one, but so is like the craft of comedy and truly knowing how to tell a great joke, the craft of running a restaurant really successfully. When you have a craft, it's not something that comes instantly. It's something you are like working up to, often very slowly. It's so hard to see when you're young how awesome craft can feel when you're finally at the pinnacle a couple of decades later. Craft in this environment, I think, also has some protective value. We'll talk about AI. Obviously, the job market is a cruel place. Any of us can be fired at any point, but your craft, nobody can take away from you, right? So craft number one, let's call craft authority. Need is propulsion. Need is your independent assessment of what society will need over the course of your working life. You know, you and I are old enough to have lived through all of these stupid fashions about, like what you supposedly have to study. When I was in high school, it was learn Japanese and we were told that if we did not speak Japanese, we were going to be lost because the Japanese were going to take over the world economy. Meanwhile, as we know, the Japanese stock market languished for 30 years. Then it was learned genetics, and then it was learned Mandarin, and then of course, it was computer science. And listen, these are all great disciplines. These are all amazing things to study. But the idea that one of them is going to be a golden ticket that is going to be an automatic short path for you in life is, I think, very obviously a bad idea. So need is an alternative, right? It's saying, based on your own independent observation, what products what need, what care?
- [13:11]
Kara Swisher
You have to be shifting it. But the certainty is exhausting. Like, this is what you need.
- [13:16]
Jodi Kantor
Totally. But I think the reason it's important now is because the psychological message of the AI moment for young people is you're not needed. And that's just. That's a damaging statement, and it's not actually true. We do need the talents and hard work of young people. And so need is a way of saying, what is the thing that's gonna pull me along?
- [13:39]
Kara Swisher
All right, so in delving in it, you know, you write about how the idea of upward mobility has been battered. And my co host, Scott Galloway on Pivot, who does write also about young people, says that people who tell you to follow your passion are already rich and tell you you're better off developing your talent. Craft is different than passion.
- [13:56]
Jodi Kantor
Totally.
- [13:56]
Kara Swisher
I have always called my job a craft. Like, I get better and better at it. And someone was like, how do you do? So I said, cause I hone my craft. Like, that's how I look at it. Like, it's like learning to play the piano or something like that. And I get better and better. And then I was like, and I practice more than you. Even at this advanced stage in my career, I practice more than you and try different things. So when you think about the idea of being driven by that rather than passion, talk a little bit about that.
- [14:24]
Jodi Kantor
I think that's exactly right. I mean, like, needless to say, this is not a time for happy, go lucky, naive optimism about, like, just do what you love and it's all gonna work out. I mean, I think we're all really past that. I think this is a different message. This says that the measure of a career is what you do hour by hour. And if we pop in on you at 11:30 in the morning on a random Thursday, and we ask the following question. Do you feel connected to the task before you? I mean, every job has annoying aspects that we don't like. But do you feel fundamentally engaged in your work? Are you doing something special that other people don't know how to do, and is it of value to others? It's not just about, like, your individual passion. Right. It's about providing a sense of connectedness to the bigger picture of society and other people. That is what I think craft is. And part of the reason to really talk to young people about it is that it's, like, very hard to see, actually, when you're young. I mean, when. So my personal confession, which I tell the whole story in the book, is that I was kicked off my college paper.
- [15:55]
Kara Swisher
You do?
- [15:55]
Jodi Kantor
And when that happened, I was kicked off for bad reasons. And I was like, journalism is chaos. Like, I would never want to be a part of this thing. Right. This is a banana republic. Like, this is capricious. This is nuts. It took me until many years later to understand that journalism is a craft and that, you know, what I have done in my career is work to learn a very powerful set of tools that need to be deployed very judiciously, but when they are wielded well, can have tremendous results. Like when Megan and I did the Harvey Weinstein story, that was like the accumulation of all the craft we had learned and all the craft Dean McKay had learned and Matt Purdy and Rebecca Corbett. And so that's. Yeah, that to me, it has a lot more muscle than just following your passion.
- [16:51]
Kara Swisher
Yes, absolutely. So when you do orient towards the need, you have to sort of skate where the puck isn't right or is headed or something, whatever metaphor you want to use. My son very smartly was like, I think AI is going to replace software engineering. So I'm going into mechanical engineering and energy engineering. And I thought, oh, all right. At the time. And I was, you know, understanding pretty well the thing, the impacts of AI, but he was 100% right. And I was like, well done, sir. But when you think about that, it's really difficult. A lot of people who go into one thing unfortunately are getting the, you know, the stuffing knocked out of themselves.
- [17:31]
Jodi Kantor
Well, there are a couple of ways to address this. Let's do the lightning. Round one is there are like just the obvious needs that are permanent and lasting and that we're not going to trust AI to or not trust it to for a very long time. Like, I just had breast cancer and I needed a mastectomy. And you know, that that is just a very powerful need in the world that unfortunately is going to continue. So you can find something like that that, you know, is just a very durable kind of need. You can look to your demons. One of the most remarkable people I met in the course of writing this book is. Her name is Exaria. She graduated in that Columbia class of 2025. She was hell bent on becoming a research psychologist, getting a PhD in psych. And she encountered all sorts of career obstacles which she ended up fielding and leaping over. And her motivation was that when she was 11, she lost her brother Keith to an overdose. And her motivation in becoming a psychologist is that she wants to forge new forms of addiction treatment. She wants to make addiction treatment more effective. The need she wants to meet is so real and so powerful that I can already see it serving as an important thing. Jet fuel. And also so many of like the people you and I have covered over the years. I don't know if you feel the same way. Some of the most admirable people are people who took some pain or tragedy in their life and made their life an answer to that. So she's a very young version of somebody like that. The last thing I'll say is that I was just talking to the CEO of LinkedIn, Ryan Maslansky. He and Aneesh Raman have a terrific book called Open to Work, which is about work in the age of AI that just came out. And I was in an audience where he was asked about his advice for young people. And he said something I thought was really interesting and worth passing on. So first he gave the conventional line, which is like, listen, acquaint yourself with these tools. They're going to be important. You don't want to be illiterate in them. And then he said, I want you to think about chasing bigger needs, right? Because this is kind of a defensive time and an unstable time. A lot of people are thinking small. He said, the tools of AI are so powerful that we have a shot at being able to attack things like poverty, you know, hunger, illiteracy, climate change that once appeared out of reach. So he was talking about the. The biggest needs of all, needs that are so huge that they are very intimidating to think about. And what I liked to come back to your citation of ambition. I liked that he was. I liked that he was encouraging ambition. I liked that he was encouraging Reaching for the moon.
- [20:22]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt. As you all know from listening to me, I love my Chevy Bolt. It's one of my favorite things. I almost like it as much as my kids anyway. That's right. The Chevy Bolt is back and better than ever now with 2.5 times faster charging with DC Public. Fast charging that goes from 10 to 80 in just 25 minutes. I've been riding around in the Bolt for years and again, I have to say, I love it. I don't know why I love it so much. It's just happy car. Some of you times you have sad cars, happy cars. I've had the cars for a couple of years. I've never had a problem with it. It's freezing cold here in D.C. right now and nothing happened to my battery. I charge it. I happen to charge at my house. It does take a little longer, but with this new Chevy Bold, it's much faster. I'm thinking of trading it in, although I love my Bolt so it's a very difficult decision. I just think I can't say enough about the Chevy Bolt and the amount of time you've been listening to this show. Your Bolt could have charged and be ready to hit the road. Best of all, 2027 Bolt features upgraded tech, has an 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen. All that and more in Chevy's most affordable ev. It was easy to use before. It's easier to use and easier to charge and I know some people are worried about that. You shouldn't be. Learn more@chevy.com bolt 2.5 times faster charging with 150 kilowatt plus D fast charging 2027 bolt when compared to the 2023 bolt which is the one I think I have. Actual charge times will vary. See the Owner's manual for details and limitations. Support for this show comes from Green Chef. Everyone wants to eat healthier and it's easier to get tricked by trendy diets. But where fad diets fail, Green Chef delivers real food and recipes that make healthy eating not only easy but lasting. With Green Chef every week you get over 40 recipes made with organic produce, responsibly sourced proteins, and nothing you can't pronounce. Green Chef sent me over some things to try. I had their delicious egg bites which are amazing. One was mushroom, one was shrimp and I have to say they're protein shakes. I usually find protein shakes gross. These are amazing. I really like it. It's really nice and incredibly fresh. And I'm going to make the food with my kids, which is always fun to do. You can pick what matters to you, from Mediterranean high protein meals to their longevity line built around on brain and gut health. All Green Chef meals come pre portioned and ready in minutes. And if you want guidance beyond the plate, Green Chef includes free unlimited one on one nutrition coaching that helps you stay on track. Head to greenchef.com 50kara and use a code 50kara to get 50 off your first month and then 20% off for two months. That's code 50cara@greenchef.com 50kara foreign.
- [23:21]
Asad Herndon
So we're not paying taxes this year, right? Until the Pentagon passes one damn audit, we shouldn't pay any more taxes.
- [23:31]
Vivian Tu
People don't want to pay taxes anymore because they don't trust the way the government is spending and tracking our money.
- [23:38]
Podcast Advertisers/Announcers
Americans are fed up with paying taxes and I know, I know, but hear me out. Americans are extra fed up with paying taxes lately, according to some Gallup polling and some posting. But are we being short sighted?
- [23:50]
Brene Brown and Adam Grant
I think that it's important to have a government. I think that humans tried anarchy for quite a long time and it didn't work so well. A lot of people got hit over the head with rocks. We didn't have a whole lot of economic development. Almost everyone agrees that the United States should have a military to protect it from foreign invasion, that we should have law enforcement, firefighting schools, et cetera, anti
- [24:15]
Podcast Advertisers/Announcers
taxers and where this could all be heading on today explained dropping every weekday afternoon
- [24:22]
Kara Swisher
so let's break down some of the challenges facing recent grads who are entering the workspace right now. Who this book is aimed at beginning the application process and I've heard from a number of my nieces and nephews about this. The new study from Gallup found that young adults have become more angry and skeptical of AI, especially when it comes to work. Nearly 50% of working Gen Zers believe the risks of AI in the workforce outweigh the benefits. There's an 11 point increase from the previous year, and the tech people aren't doing themselves any favors by acting like Bond villains all the time. You wrote this book to combat the cynicism and pessimism so many people have about the future. But boy do they hate AI. And it's either through job applications. Like my nephew was what in the fuckity fuck am I doing talking to an AI?
- [25:04]
Jodi Kantor
Totally.
- [25:04]
Kara Swisher
They just don't know what to do. And I was like, what? Like you're not talking to a person.
- [25:09]
Jodi Kantor
I know.
- [25:10]
Kara Swisher
And job applications are demoralizing because of the screening process. Bots are eliminating cabinets. At the same time, job seekers are using AI to write their resumes and cover letters. So it's really kind of dystopian in many ways with robot gatekeepers and then robots to fight the gatekeepers. So talk a little bit about this.
- [25:30]
Jodi Kantor
So what you're saying is so important. And for anyone who's like middle aged like us and has had a job for a while or hasn't applied or whatever, like what you just said, I just want to underline, is completely true. Hiring is being digitized not by everybody, but by a lot of employers. And so the experience of being young and looking for a job, which we think of as a social experience filled with handshakes and conversations, that notion is somewhat outdated. Think of giant digital Portals that are black boxes that are not giving you any feedback on whether you really have a chance or not.
- [26:07]
Kara Swisher
It's usually the first interview is that.
- [26:09]
Jodi Kantor
Think of the AI interviews where young people are talking to machines. I'm talking to young people like your nephew, who say to me, jodi, I applied for 150 jobs and I didn't meet anybody in the process. And so the first thing to sort of separate is to say, like, do we know what's gonna really happen with AI and entry level employment long term? No, I think it's too early. Like, I don't really trust the progn.
- [26:41]
Kara Swisher
It's what's gonna get hit first.
- [26:42]
Jodi Kantor
That's right. Well, yeah, yeah, but with like any prognosticator who's like, overly certain about the ultimate answers. I don't personally trust or buy. But what we can tell people right now is that, yes, the hiring process itself has been truly digitized. Um, I think the advice on that is pretty clear, which is that personal connection is actually becoming more important in the face of these digital tools.
- [27:07]
Kara Swisher
If you can get one.
- [27:08]
Jodi Kantor
The worst version of that is like, like Nepo Babies Gone Wild, right? Where like, the kids who are already hooked and connected are getting all the best stuff and everybody else is left out in the cult. The better version of that is that we are advising young people on how to forge connections themselves and we are teaching them ways to reach past the technology. There's actually a space in the book where, like, I know that reaching out to strangers is really intimidating when you're just starting. So I actually give a list of my tips as an investigative reporter because I cold call and cold email people all day.
- [27:55]
Kara Swisher
I saw the movie, it was really cool.
- [27:57]
Jodi Kantor
Thank you for watching that.
- [27:58]
Kara Swisher
But they don't know what to do. Cause you can't get a person. I mean, what I did with my nephew is I. I'd gotten 100 rejections from newspapers across the country when I left Columbia, including very small ones, Chattanooga, wherever. And they were all, you know, I wrote these onion skin notes on typewriters. Cause I'm old. And then I got rejections and I stapled them together and I still have them. And I had someone come up to me saying, you're the kind of people we needed back, you know, as a young person after I'd become successful. And I go, oh, look, you rejected me. And your rejection was super fucking rude. Like, so it's not that different. Cause it was sort of a form letter is what we used to get back, right? And unless you called. And the way I got a job was I called and I called Larry Kramer at the Washington Post and started insulting him and then went down there like it was. I had a rejection letter and a form letter and then I just ignored it completely.
- [28:51]
Jodi Kantor
Well, first of all, it sounds to me like a uniquely Kara Swishian thing to be able to get a job by insulting somebody. I'm not sure anybody but you could pull that off. But here's what I think is different. You're right that the onion skin and like the, you know, faceless emails and whatever, whatever a little bit the same. But here's what's different, which is that employers are actually having tremendous trouble telling anybody apart right now because the AI software has a homogenizing effect on applicants. So instead of rewarding the charm or engagement or spark of intelligence in a cover letter, it's scanning these keywords. So then the kids are all putting identical keywords in their letters and resumes. And as a result, employers are very frustrated. They're getting too many applications because it's really easy to apply for a zillion jobs digitally. But also it's making everybody look the same.
- [29:49]
Kara Swisher
That's what AI does.
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Jodi Kantor
The most valuable thing about you, your edge, your spark, your initiative, the crazy thing that happened to you, it is not making it into the process. And so you have to find a different way to forge that connection.
- [30:04]
Kara Swisher
Right. Right. Now one of the things that's also happening, Elon Musk is and others, I've heard them from all of them, that AI will make work opt and that money irrelevant. So called AI abundance scenario, which AI optimists envision. We should all be looking for a day when the robots take all our jobs, because that's a good thing and we'll all have abundance. Let's assume for a second they're right and they're actually gonna share the wealth, which they're not. And you can earn a decent life from ubi, which is universal basic income alone. But imagine that happened so people could pursue whatever craft they found fulfilling without worrying about money. Talk a little bit about that because they never get this out of that. You know, this is a hair up their ass on this topic.
- [30:43]
Jodi Kantor
Oh my God. I mean, listen, I don't know what's gonna happen, but I have a 20 year old kid. Am I gonna tell her that she doesn't have to worry about career stuff? Because before too long we'll be in an age of AI abundance and she's just gonna be able to like play a guitar all Day. You know, I mean, I think we need a humility about what the hell is really going to happen to employment and our children and young people need to make durable, well crafted plans based on time tested principles that won't like protect them from every bad thing because that's not realistic, but will give them the best chance of going the distance. I mean, like work, happiness is still possible. I mean, look at this moon expedition. Like I fell down the Instagram hole of watching all the astronaut videos. And it's extraordinary.
- [31:52]
Kara Swisher
They're having a good time.
- [31:53]
Jodi Kantor
They have everything that I think we want out of work. They have, they have teamwork, they have true fellowship with one another. They have done something absolutely extraordinary, even if it's been done before. Like getting to the moon is still basically impossible. And they pulled it off. There's, you know, an immense accumulation of learning and technical craft that their mission was based on. They were accomplishing something for themselves, but also something for the collective. Like, it was really, it was a
- [32:25]
Kara Swisher
nice woke workplace, I'll tell you that. I was like, look, it works and it's woke.
- [32:30]
Jodi Kantor
And people who are graduating now are surrounded by negative images of work. It is the severance era on tv, right? And so to have, I think that very public positive example of that moon mission is just great, right?
- [32:48]
Kara Swisher
So it is an outlier. Everyone does not get to be an astronaut. But you're talking about what it said. Like find workplaces that have that challenge, right? Because a lot of workplaces are like severance. I mean, I think that hit a note because, because it feels like that.
- [33:02]
Jodi Kantor
So how do you not end up in one? Right? I mean, here's a piece of just like direct advice, right? You have to go work for the best people you can. In terms of bosses. Like that is speaking of severance, the difference if there are two jobs that are identical for a person who's graduating, and one is that like kind of a faceless, disembodied corporation, and the other is working for somebody you really admire, who you know is a teacher and has a track record of encouraging young people. There's no comparison. Even if there are certain things about the first company that you favor or even if they pay a little more.
- [33:42]
Kara Swisher
Right, right, right. No, 100%. It matters the people that are there. So one of the things that's important is we think about money, career choice and risk. You encourage graduates to, quote, embark on some calculated risk.
- [33:54]
Jodi Kantor
Yeah.
- [33:54]
Kara Swisher
What does calculated risk look like to someone who's just graduated from college with say $40,000 in student loan debt, which is the average federal student loan balance.
- [34:04]
Jodi Kantor
I'm so glad you asked because I think this is the situation right now. The world is so nuts and things are so topsy turvy. We're living through climate disasters and school shootings and political turmoil, you know, et cetera, et cetera, that everybody wants to build. Like, that's natural, that's rational. And I meet a lot of young people who just want to find, like, what seems like safe harbor and the most stable path. And I get that. My role is not to tell them that they're wrong, but my role is to point out that you don't really get anywhere great without taking on some risk. Risk. It's just like a necessary ingredient in business in other areas. So what does a well calibrated risk look like? I think it looks like saying, I don't need a perfectly coherent resume when I'm 18 or 22 or 24 years old. I can try something new. It's saying I can maybe go work for something that's just started.
- [35:11]
Kara Swisher
Yep, this is what I tell them all the time. Yeah.
- [35:13]
Jodi Kantor
You know, not completely established. I can maybe disregard some conventional wisdom that doesn't seem completely right for me. You know, I dropped out of law school to become a journalist. All my best career decisions, Kara, were about disregarding what other people thought.
- [35:29]
Kara Swisher
Yep, A hundred. I say this to young people all the time. I'm like, what do you have to risk? And it's often very high level, like Stanford. I'm like, I don't know. I took a risk at 45. So you certainly. It's not, what, what skin is it off your nose if it didn't doesn't work out. Like, initially, I, I, I challenge all young people to that. Now every episode, we get a expert to send us a question. Here's yours.
- [35:51]
Jodi Kantor
Oh, great.
- [35:52]
Vivian Tu
Hi, Karen.
- [35:53]
Kara Swisher
Jody.
- [35:53]
Vivian Tu
I'm Vivian, too. Otherwise known as Urich, BFF Online. I'm a personal finance content creator. And you've probably heard the joke that the economy is so bad right now, people are just following their dreams. Dreams and knowing that meaningful work is the most fulfilling thing. And more and more people also seem to be thinking about choosing a financially secure career that buys them the lifestyle they want for new grads and younger people. How would you recommend that they walk this tightrope? And when would you recommend picking one versus the other?
- [36:19]
Kara Swisher
Now, just for people to know, your husband, Ron Lieber is your money columnist for the time. So you're well steeped in this world. Talk about that choice because a lot of people like you said you forewent law school, which was a moneymaker.
- [36:31]
Jodi Kantor
Oh, totally. I can remember my father's face as I told him that I was leaving my earning power over here to become a journalist. I think that is a great question and the question for many young people. And thank you, my rich bff. I want to say two things. I want to say, first of all, I want to challenge everybody out there to think about the difference between achieving financial stability and equipoise versus chasing untold wealth. I think those are two different things. I think it's hard to see the Difference when you're 21 years old, you have the $40,000 in debt that you just mentioned. You don't know what compound interest is yet. You don't know how a mortgage really works for the young people reading this book. Do I want you to suffer and want and not be able to pay your bills? No, absolutely. I want to. Like, you need financial stability. You may. You may even get to financial stability. Plus, I think that is different than
- [37:34]
Kara Swisher
a default pursuit of craving enormous wealth.
- [37:37]
Jodi Kantor
Yeah. Like Austin of ostentation. And there. This is a very hard thing to see. But there is a way in which pursuing only money is actually selling yourself short. So that's. That's the first thing I would say. Say. The second thing I would say is that it's not. Or I think if I can just be like everybody's mom for a second. I want three things. If you're young and starting out, this is what I want for you. I want financial stability plus. Right. I want you to have what you need or better, I want you to find meaning in what you do. And I'd like you to contribute something to other people. To me. Those are the three. And I don't understand why our universities don't make that explicit.
- [38:25]
Kara Swisher
Talk about why they're not. Are they helping or hindering that goal.
- [38:29]
Jodi Kantor
So it varies. You know, the way we usually think of universities are like, what are the fancy universities? What are the less fancy universities? There's a different way to organize it, which is. Which are the universities that are really good at helping students meet their career destinies and which are not.
- [38:45]
Kara Swisher
Most of them are not. I can tell you I wasn't helped at all.
- [38:48]
Jodi Kantor
That's where I want to go. That's where I want to go. So there are exceptions. There are. Like, before I say the harsh thing, I want to give credit to the people out there really doing exceptional work. Most students are telling me I feel like my education is completely disconnected from this question of how to find your life's work. I won't use his name because I'm not sure he would want to say it publicly. Yesterday I spoke to a student at Northwestern. I mean, a truly great university filled with amazing things. And this kid said to me, like, college is great, but it does not feel like a path to finding my life's work. I'm also seeing a lot of schools, including Columbia, my alma mater, where there is really no effective way of students reaching alumni.
- [39:40]
Kara Swisher
No, there isn't.
- [39:41]
Jodi Kantor
In. And so it's like, you know, you pay this ridiculous amount of money for this education, or you're able to scrape together, you know, the loans or the financial aid, and you become part of this club of people who have gone to this university. Except the club is not even really a club because you don't have a path to reaching the person who graduated 20 years ago who could be, like, a real role model and a real connection. There was an interesting moment at the Dealbook conference this past December. Andrew asked me to moderate a panel with university. Ross Sorkin asked me to moderate a panel with university presidents. And I asked them what I think is the hardest question in this topic area right now. I said to them, and these were killer university presidents, right? Like, just incredibly impressive people. I said to them, for the kid, the good kid, the hardworking kid with good grades who has applied for 150 jobs and not even gotten a bite, what would you say to that kid?
- [40:52]
Kara Swisher
Right?
- [40:53]
Jodi Kantor
Because that, to me is like, it's really, really, really hard. They had trouble answering the question. And I don't want to be too harsh on them because it's easy to beat up on higher learning and like, their university presidents who are trying to do 5,000 things, but they struggled. They struggled with the question. And it was finally, the only one who really had a good answer was John King, who is, interestingly, he's the head of the SUNY system in New
- [41:20]
Kara Swisher
York, where it's a lot about working.
- [41:22]
Jodi Kantor
Yeah, his feet are really planted on the earth in terms of kids from a very diverse array of economic backgrounds. And he said, try to add a new craft. He said, learn something that is going to change your resume and give you, like, a kind of a new shot at a different kind of job. But anyway, that's just to finish up the answer to your question of, like, I think they're trying to quickly catch up, but it's a real problem that we've got this entire elaborate university System. That's not answering the question.
- [41:54]
Kara Swisher
I was glad to take the courses, but it never helped me with any career. All these jobs. That's why I worked all through college. Cause that's how I got ahead. So when it comes to first jobs, which I think are critical, you're right that they should provoke collisions between your assumptions and reality. I think my son's doing one right now.
- [42:10]
Jodi Kantor
And what's he doing?
- [42:12]
Kara Swisher
He's working for a city council candidate in San Francisco. And he was painting the office, and now he's running the office. And I'm like, just paint the fucking office. I redid the whole mail system at the Washington Post. All the mailboxes. I relabeled them all. Like, I just. I'll do whatever it took, right, to just be there physically. And also the people I met there. I mean, one of my internee, Sanchez, Laura Blumenfeld, Micah Abramowicz, and Ryan Murphy was one of the interns when I was.
- [42:40]
Jodi Kantor
It's crazy.
- [42:41]
Kara Swisher
I know it was crazy. But it was also really helpful to have all these people that I still continue to have relationships with over the years. But it was collisions of meeting. You know, I was lucky enough to be at the very bottom rung of the Washington Post, and. And then had some bad jobs. And I'll get to that in a minute. But talk about how that works. Because I think that's one thing that I was like, do whatever you need. Just do stuff. Don't worry about, like, where it leads.
- [43:05]
Jodi Kantor
Correct, Correct. I think there are a lot of young people who have bought into the fallacy that, like, a first job is like an Olympic dive, where the entry into the pool needs to be technically correct for you to succeed. That is not true at all. And what you want in a first job is stimulation. Careers are made from stimulation and reaction. So especially if you're, like, kind of confused about what you want to do with your life. And I love those people. Those are my people. I would say, like, get the most interesting first job you can. I think the very bad first jobs are the quiet ones, like being a receptionist in an art gallery where nobody comes in all day. What are you going to learn there? Being a research assistant can be really exciting in the sciences, but in some fields it can be really dull. I mean, it's basically an extension of your university experience. I've continually heard over the years, and I know somebody who dropped out, that getting the Rhodes Scholarship can actually be kind of a depressing experience because you're in a dark British library. For a couple of years at a time. I think the best first jobs are the ones with a ton of activity, meeting a ton of new people, being thrown into situations. Like things that are new. Right. Like, it could even be a restaurant. It doesn't have to be something fancy, but anything that's starting where there's just a ton to be done. A political campaign is a class. I mean, this sounds like what your son's doing. Your political campaign is such an amazing first job because it's like you fill in the painting and the office and the money. And he did the painting.
- [44:52]
Kara Swisher
He was meeting with voters with the candidate. He was like, landlords have a point. I'm like, excellent. You learned that. Cause he was sort of a renter guy, you know? Cause he does. But.
- [45:01]
Jodi Kantor
You know what I mean?
- [45:02]
Kara Swisher
He learned something.
- [45:03]
Jodi Kantor
Well. And also, what's so beautiful about working at a political campaign is that it matters. The stakes are very real.
- [45:08]
Kara Swisher
It's also chaos. Chaos is not a bad thing.
- [45:11]
Jodi Kantor
Chaos is not a bad thing. And it's better than the depressing news about the workplace is permeating college right now, Kara. It is seeping down to freshman year.
- [45:22]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [45:23]
Jodi Kantor
I first heard this at Stanford, and then I started to hear it at other schools on text chains. A lot of students have this, like, grim inside joke where they won't write the word job. J, O, B. They will write J, B.
- [45:39]
Kara Swisher
No, no.
- [45:40]
Jodi Kantor
Like, it's like, they won't say the word Voldemort. Like, they. Like. They're like, the real thing is too scary. I gotta write the asterisk. So. So what I would say to those people is that they feel that way in part because they're sitting inside libraries.
- [45:56]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I hated the library.
- [45:58]
Jodi Kantor
Right. And they're not getting. It actually feels better to be in the chaos of a political campaign. Yeah. Even if you think you don't wanna be in politics for the long haul.
- [46:09]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah. I did so many stupid jobs, and they were the best ones I did. So you also encourage people to consult their demons so that loss becomes a fuel for career. Talk about why you think there might be reluctance to do that. And what's the plus of it? I have gotten fired so many times. I have gotten so many beefs. Like, I love a demon. I love a. No. I had someone tell me I was too confident, and I was like, fuck you. But I'm always like, don't worry about it. It doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter later either. By the way.
- [46:37]
Jodi Kantor
You're talking about a slightly different demon than. I mean, let me hear what you mean. You have a talent for confrontation that not everybody has. I'm talking about all of the brilliant, devoted people in the medical field who went into that field because there was some tragedy or struggle early in their life. Right.
- [47:02]
Kara Swisher
I just made a whole CNN series about it. My dad dying.
- [47:05]
Jodi Kantor
Exactly right. And all, you know, like this young woman, Ixaria, from Columbia. But I could give you a lot of other examples, people who, you know, when you're young, you feel very disempowered. You know, when you're confronting something hard, you feel like you don't have agency. And I'm talking about the person who faces, like, a family medical tragedy when they're young and says, I'm gonna learn the craft of medicine because I need to establish some agency and control over the situation. Or another person like that is actually my husband, Ron Lieber, who, as you said, is the personal finance columnist here at the Times. So Ron grew up on financial aid, and his parents divorced, and they had some contentious situations about money. And Ron felt like money was this dark, mysterious thing that was coloring the relationships that he did not understand. So he learned to craft journalism, and he became a personal finance columnist. And he is now helping other people, you know, essentially to protect their wallets and deal with financial catastrophe. And for him, it's a kind of. I think when people do that, it's very beautiful and it's very moving because they're taking something negative in their life and they're turning it into a source of strength and power.
- [48:24]
Kara Swisher
I just interviewed re Jobs for this series, and of course he has plenty of money. That's not the issue. But he pursued Yosemite, which is looking at cancer treatments. And, you know, it's really. I think he's much happier because, you know, he had any choice in the world. He didn't have to work at all. And I think it does give it an interesting meaning. He obviously starts with a lot more advantage than other people, but I do think. Think it's something that is actually possibly very impactful. Cause of that. I agree. That's a demon. His dad dying.
- [48:52]
Jodi Kantor
Yeah, totally. And also cancer treatment is actually a pretty optimistic field right now. The strides that are being made. I mean, as a recent cancer patient, I can tell you it was like a. I couldn't believe how optimistic the experience of being treated was. Yeah.
- [49:10]
Kara Swisher
So work, speaking of meaning, work gives some people satisfaction. And meaning, I've always had that the case. A lot of people, a job is just a job. And I know young people talk about that and they want to find meaning and satisfaction from their families, which they should. Friends and communities, not how they make a living. You hear that a lot. And how do you respond to someone says the goal of trying to find your life works and your career seeds too much of your self worth and identity? And let me posit something. There's a very famous quote, you know, on my deathbed, I didn't think about my job and I thought, well, I'm going to. I had a great job. I love my job. It was fun. And I also love my family. Like, so it was kind of a different thing. So talk about that because you do hear that from a lot of young. My job's not gonna be the thing. I sense you love your job.
- [49:51]
Jodi Kantor
I really love my job. I think, first of all, you don't have to choose, right? Like, we want both. We want both for you. We want you to have a great family life and a great professional life. Like, the world is not yet so impoverished that you only get to have one or the other. And then I would say, like, I think, you know, this book is coming out next week. I'm getting ready to show it to the world. And I think a really important thing for an author to say is, my book is not for everybody. It is not for everybody. If you are that person who, like, has totally cut off the idea of work making you happy, then, like, there's nothing I can do for you. My book is for are the people who want a fighting chance of seeing their ambitions and dreams realized and want to show up at their workplace every day saying, like, at some level, I just believe in this.
- [50:56]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [51:10]
Jodi Kantor
Hi, I'm Brene Brown.
- [51:11]
Brene Brown and Adam Grant
And I'm Adam Grant.
- [51:12]
Podcast Advertisers/Announcers
And we're here to invite you to
- [51:14]
Jodi Kantor
the Curiosity Shop, a podcast that's a
- [51:16]
Asad Herndon
place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling and questioning.
- [51:20]
Kara Swisher
It's going to be fun.
- [51:21]
Asad Herndon
We rarely agree, but we almost never disagree. And we're always learning.
- [51:26]
Jodi Kantor
That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity shop
- [51:29]
Kara Swisher
on YouTube or follow in your favorite
- [51:31]
Podcast Advertisers/Announcers
podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.
- [51:35]
Kara Swisher
Hi, everyone. I want to tell you about a new podcast from Vox called America. Actually, it's hosted by political journalists and someone I really admire as Ted Herndon. And the show asks the questions, what will America look like after Donald Trump? Kids, there will be an after Donald Trump. Trump's been running a one man show for over a decade, but we're heading towards the first open presidential election since 2016. And it'll play out in a country that will feel very different. America actually digs deep into the questions that you and your friends are asking about politics, culture and economy by an expert reporter, Asad. It'll map out the people and ideas that will shape the future beyond Trump. You can watch America actually on the Vox Unit YouTube channel and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [52:26]
Asad Herndon
For the last 10 years, everything in American politics has basically revolved around one man. And as a political journalist who came of age during Donald Trump's rise in 2016, I've had a front row seat.
- [52:38]
Kara Swisher
I am officially running for President of the United States.
- [52:43]
Jodi Kantor
It's going to be to be only America First. America First. Thousands of supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. capitol building.
- [52:55]
Asad Herndon
But is it possible to talk about politics without talking about Donald Trump? That's the question I'm going to ask in our new show from vox.
- [53:03]
Podcast Advertisers/Announcers
The idea of like a post Trump or not exactly Trump focused show can
- [53:07]
Kara Swisher
exist because he's not really driving any agenda items. It really does feel like so reaction.
- [53:11]
Asad Herndon
You know, I think this Iran thing is also going to cause a big split in the gop. So far it doesn't among like, people who say they're MAGA voters are still with Trump, but like for the first time you see on a major issue, open opposition from the start of this war. I'm Estet Herndon and welcome to America. Actually,
- [53:31]
Kara Swisher
I have to ask you about California Representative Eric Swalwell, who's announced on Sunday night that he's suspended his campaign for governance is a wake of allegations that he sexually assaulted a former staff member and engaged in sexual misconduct. These are young people. That one was an intern. You know, this is the kind of thing that you just sit there and say, nearly a decade into MeToo, it's still an issue in the workplace.
- [53:54]
Jodi Kantor
Oh, totally. I almost felt a responsibility in a weird way to write the book because I felt like, oh, God, I've, like, reported some of the worst things about the workplace and.
- [54:05]
Kara Swisher
You have, right?
- [54:06]
Jodi Kantor
Yeah. And even though I'm very proud of that, I don't want young people to look at work as like a danger zone. A danger zone of exploitation. Exactly. You know what I would say? I haven't reported on the Swalwell story in particular, but I think what's interesting is the way it fits in the larger climate. I mean, even if we just talk about California, we're also talking about Cesar Chavez and that stunning story that my colleagues reported just a week or two ago. Megan Tuohy, my work partner on the Weinstein story, interviewed Gisele Pellico. And so what I would say is that the reckoning continues, even in a climate of backlash, even with the President of the United States essentially leading the backlash against MeToo. The fact that women are still speaking up are still coming forward. I have read a zillion obituaries for the MeToo movement, and I think they're wrong, because the conversation continues.
- [55:07]
Kara Swisher
You know, all the coverage you did in the Weinstein and that whole thing affected people's thoughts about the workplace. Did you uncover any of that?
- [55:15]
Jodi Kantor
Absolutely. Absolutely. Because it was so devastating, not just in the Weinstein story, but others. But to see that what should be the tools of forward motion, you know, hr, workplace law, mentorship opportunities, the idea that these could all be used for bad things, it's devastating, you know, and the idea that it can go unaddressed for so long.
- [55:46]
Kara Swisher
One of the things I got from your stories that made me the saddest is so many of these women, especially in the Weinstein thing, or you could say Addie, were so excited about their careers, right? And the actors or, you know, and the possibilities were endless for them. And that, to me, was. Was like the. I guess, you know, this idea of losing your innocence in that way. But it was really, when this happened again, I'm like, oh, my God, Why does it not stop?
- [56:12]
Jodi Kantor
Well, to address the first part of what you said, 1,000%, like, Weinstein took women's aspirations. You know, all these women, whether they were assistants or actresses, they wanted a piece of the action, and he knew exactly how to turn those into vulnerabilities. You know, if you want the job, if you want the script, if you want the Oscar campaign, you know, you have to come to my room, et cetera, et cetera. I think. I think what I would say is that the lesson of the MeToo reporting, Kara, is that this stuff is just universal, right? It's like in every community. That was the shock of the MeToo moment in 2017, which is seeing these women all across the world. They have nothing in common. Economically, culturally, they're all different. How can it be that every society, every career field, every economic milieu, they all have this problem, Right?
- [57:07]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I would agree. And it means you'll have plenty of work if you want. Continue. So let's invite. Taking a step back, you acknowledge in the book that graduates are facing, quote, a giant structural problem with the employment market, not a personal failing, end quote. You've covered the workplace and power as an investigative reporter for decades. You're really talking about power. And you've seen how change actually happens or doesn't in institutions, as we just discussed. Obviously, there's no easy solution. But if we as a society want to tackle big structural problems that are preventing people from finding fulfilling careers, if you could do one thing, where should we start?
- [57:42]
Jodi Kantor
Oh, it's such a good question for a reporter. Because as you know, the starting premise of all my thinking is like, you can't change reality. Right? Like, you gotta. You gotta start with all the givens. I think if I were. Since you were giving me the chance for one second to be the queen of the world and do anything, I would have colleges and universities get really serious about helping people find their life's work. Like it. Ha. It has to. I think the economy is probably gonna force it to happen. In fact, like it. Like it can't.
- [58:19]
Kara Swisher
And high schools, not just colleges. And universe.
- [58:21]
Jodi Kantor
And high schools too. High schools. Like what? Like the idea that we are killing ourselves to get into college, killing ourselves to pay for it, and yet it is not helping us enough to find our life's work. It's not working. If I were the queen of the world, I would have a giant meeting with really good food, like for all the college and university presidents, and we would lock ourselves into a room until we figure out how to do this.
- [58:53]
Kara Swisher
Better to get people into the right places.
- [58:55]
Jodi Kantor
Yeah. Because young people don't have the levers to make their schools do this. And so I would. The room would be comfy, you know, good ventilation. But I would lock us in until we come up with the answer on their behalf.
- [59:06]
Kara Swisher
That is a great answer. That's what you should do. Or you have all the young people start working. All the old people go to school later. That's what I just told Scott. He's like, what are you doing after this? You seem to have checked every box. I said, I'm going back to school just for pleasure.
- [59:20]
Jodi Kantor
Really? What would you study?
- [59:22]
Kara Swisher
Anything. Archeology. Something completely without any purpose. Just to know. I just was like, I was a worker, you know, from the get. And I didn't. I like school. And I said, In 10 years, I'm quitting and going back to school.
- [59:38]
Jodi Kantor
I love it.
- [59:39]
Kara Swisher
For no reason whatsoever. I'll probably end up being like the world's most famous archaeologist. I can't help being successful at work, but I really want to do something that doesn't have point. But you do need to help them find a direction. You're absolutely right. That's when I think about young people. And they're all different, by the way. That's the thing. Anyway, it's a great book. Everyone should read it and give as a graduation present. And one thing I will say to young people, don't worry so much. You'll be okay. You will. That's if I had to go back and tell myself something, well, I was never really that agonized. But for people who are just, you'll be okay.
- [60:18]
Jodi Kantor
Amen. Amen.
- [60:19]
Kara Swisher
Most of you will be. Not everybody and most of the world has a much harder time than we do in this country. So we should count our blessings in that regard. Anyway, thank you so much, Jodi. I really appreciate it. It's a great book. And I love this little pivot for you. Your little pivot happening.
- [60:34]
Jodi Kantor
Thank you.
- [60:34]
Kara Swisher
And it's a good pivot to do. Thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. Hi, everyone. Want career advice from Kara Swisher? Now's your chance. Send a video to on@voxmedia.com and you might be featured. I can't wait to see what you've got. Ask any question. I'll try to answer it. Today's show was produced by Christian Castor Russell, Michelle Eloit, Catherine Millsop, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen and Corinne Ruff. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan and our theme music is by Trackademic. If you're already following the show, you're graduating with honors. If not, we're holding you back a year. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.