Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher — "Bernie Sanders on Beating Authoritarianism, Billionaires & AOC"

Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Senator Bernie Sanders

Overview

In this episode, Kara Swisher interviews Senator Bernie Sanders about the fight against authoritarianism, the rise and influence of billionaires—especially tech moguls—on American society and democracy, the transformation of the Democratic Party, and the prospects for progressivism. The conversation covers Sanders' recent Fighting Oligarchy tour, the historic "No Kings" rallies, and his new book, Fight Oligarchy. Sanders also discusses the challenge of Trumpism, the dilemma of working-class support, his engagement with AOC and the progressive movement, and his ideas for addressing the impact of AI and wealth inequality.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Historic "No Kings" Rally & American History

• Sanders reflects on the scale and historic nature of the "No Kings" rallies, likening them to watershed moments in US history:

  "Maybe no one knows. There may have been more people out on the streets today than in any given day in American history fighting for our democracy..." — Bernie Sanders [04:08]

• He draws parallels to past transformative struggles—Revolutionary War, abolition, suffrage, labor, civil rights—emphasizing that unity and mass mobilization historically create change:

  "When all of those struggles were taking place...when people have come together, we win, and that's what we've got to do." — Bernie Sanders [06:45]

2. Authoritarianism, Trump, and the Politics of Fear

• Sanders critiques current Republican leadership and Trumpism for using fear to justify power grabs and division:

  "What Trumpism is about is trying to instill fear in the American people to give him more and more power...They're trying to divide us up." — Bernie Sanders [08:22]

• He points to the peaceful nature of the protests versus right-wing attempts to brand them as violent:

  "Millions of people came out because they love this country...to Protect American freedom and democracy and justice. So fear is what these guys do." — Bernie Sanders [07:11]

3. The Power of Collective Action vs. Oligarchy

• Sanders argues that mass mobilization is a counter to the perceived invincibility of billionaires and power structures:

  "What days like today are about are showing that when we stand together, we have power. We are the majority." — Bernie Sanders [10:07]

• He reasserts the principle of democracy:

  "I believe in one person, one vote is what democracy is about, not billionaires buying election." — Bernie Sanders [11:15]

4. The Rise of Oligarchy: Tech Billionaires & Concentration of Wealth

• Sanders and Swisher discuss the concentration of economic, corporate, and media power among a handful of ultra-rich individuals:

  "Is it vaguely acceptable...that one man, Mr. Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households? Does anyone think that's sane?" — Bernie Sanders [15:05] "You got an incredible billionaire oligarch, concentration of ownership in media." — Bernie Sanders [18:08]

• Sanders repeatedly draws a straight line between American oligarchy and global counterparts:

  "Oh, the Russian oligarchs control their society. Oh, in Saudi Arabia, got a handful of...Well, guess what. It's the same damn thing in this country." — Bernie Sanders [19:00]

5. Billionaire Philosophy & Individualism vs. Solidarity

• Sanders contends that the new oligarchs have a distinct, dangerous ideology:

  "[These tech billionaires] really do believe...if anybody suggests that these big tech guys should not have unlimited power...it's not that I disagree with you. You're wrong. It's. You're Antichrist. We are the kings." — Bernie Sanders [19:23]

• He contrasts their worldview with a vision of solidarity:

  "To be human is not for me to say I want it all and I don't give a damn about you... It's to say, you know what? We're in this together." — Bernie Sanders [21:15]

6. Democratic Party Failures & Working-Class Disaffection

• Sanders dissects the Democrats' struggles: loss of working class support, and inability to offer an alternative vision:

  "The Democratic Party has not given them an alternative vision...do you worry about your campaign contributions from AIPAC and from the other billionaire super PACs, or do you come up with an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class?" — Bernie Sanders [28:50]

• He also notes the entertainment value and normalization of Trump's racist rhetoric:

  "Trump...was a very successful TV personality...his administration is a reality Presidential administration..." — Bernie Sanders [29:57]

7. Progressive Movement & Building Opposition

• Sanders highlights the makeup of his and AOC’s recent rallies:

  "About half the people came were Bernie supporters, half the people were not...a significant number of Republicans and a significant number of independents." — Bernie Sanders [25:51]

• He makes the case for issue-driven support, including single-payer healthcare:

  "People cannot afford 50% of their income going to health care." — Bernie Sanders [32:06]

8. The Role and Limits of Billionaire Donors

• Sanders is skeptical about reliance on billionaire donors, advocating for grassroots funding:

  "The future of this country will not rest on a handful of billionaires. It rests on working class people..." — Bernie Sanders [34:16]

• He stresses the need to overturn Citizens United and reduce fundraising as the focus of political life:

  "Wouldn't it be kind of nice if we had a Congress that was responsive to the people back home not spending their life raising money from wealthy people..." — Bernie Sanders [50:09]

9. Third Parties and Pressure for Reform

• Responding to Jill Lepore's expert question, Sanders upholds working both within and outside the Democratic Party:

  "It's very easy to say, let's form a third party. Well, it's a great idea. And you have examples of it. The Green Party is a third party...Would I have been able to do that running as a third party?" — Bernie Sanders [36:56]

• He supports independent and progressive Democratic candidates while acknowledging the challenges of new party formation:

  "Many of them are running as progressive Democrats. Many of them are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party." — Bernie Sanders [36:56]

10. Artificial Intelligence, Robot Tax, and the Future of Work

• Sanders discusses technological disruption and proposes a "robot tax":

  "If robotics and AI is going to increase worker productivity, which it certainly will...the benefits should not Simply go to Mr. Musk and his friends. They should benefit ordinary people in this country." — Bernie Sanders [47:00]

• He floats ideas like reducing the workweek and expanding worker power:

  "Maybe it's time to...Lower the work week from 40 hours a week to 32 hours a week without loss of pay." — Bernie Sanders [47:00]

11. Election Integrity, Structural Barriers, and Mobilization

• On Republican efforts to cement control:

  "These are very disturbing and difficult times in American history...the only way out is going to be with millions of people...standing up in every possible way fighting back to protect American democracy..." — Bernie Sanders [51:04]

• Sanders stresses the centrality of grassroots mobilization, even in the face of gerrymandering and Voting Rights Act rollbacks:

  "There are alternatives...the civil rights movement...they ended up winning because they spoke to the moral sense of the American people..." — Bernie Sanders [51:36]

12. The Government Shutdown and Healthcare

• Sanders focuses on the human cost of the shutdown, particularly its effect on healthcare:

  "How does any member of the US Congress vote to throw 15 million people off of their health care and...allow 50,000Americans to die unnecessarily every year." — Bernie Sanders [54:44]

• He pushes for permanent extensions of Obamacare subsidies and reiterates the long-term goal of Medicare for All:

  "We need to do what every other major country does. And that is a, a Medicare for all." — Bernie Sanders [58:21]

13. AOC, Succession, and the Next Generation

• Sanders praises AOC but avoids naming any single heir to his movement:

  "She is, I think, an outstanding person. I think she is really, really smart. ... But there are other great people... I don't have any heir apparents. ... there are many, many others ... fighting the right fight as well." — Bernie Sanders [58:53]

• On his legacy and future:

  "It's not me. ... For as long as I can do it, I'm going to play my role." — Bernie Sanders [61:50]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On oligarchy in America:
  "It's very easy to talk about in Russia...Well, guess what. It's the same damn thing in this country." — Bernie Sanders [19:00]

• On billionaires and democracy:
  "Nobody makes it on their own. ... It's a philosophy. I get it. That is their philosophy. ... I will do anything I want, and I don't want you to touch it. That's one way of looking at the world. That is Trumpism." — Bernie Sanders [20:38]

• On the Democratic Party’s dilemma:
  "The Democratic Party has got to make a fundamental decision. … Do you worry about your campaign contributions...or do you come up with an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class?" — Bernie Sanders [28:50]

• On AI and the "robot tax":
  "The reason they're doing it is they see wonderful opportunities to become even richer and more powerful. ... Should the American people and their elected representatives begin to stand up to that? The answer is yes." — Bernie Sanders [45:30]

• On electoral reform and movement building:
  "We have got to mobilize at the grassroots level. Today was a great day start. We've got to strengthen the trade union movement. We've got to get young people, working class people, senior citizens to begin to stand up." — Bernie Sanders [53:58]

• On his own future:
  "I try to do unprecedented things. … For as long as I can do it, I'm going to play my role." — Bernie Sanders [61:50]

Important Timestamps

• 00:16: Kara introduces Bernie Sanders, the "No Kings" rally, and his new book.
• 04:03: Discussion begins on the historic scale of protests and American history.
• 07:11: Sanders critiques GOP attempts to stoke fear and division.
• 15:18: Sanders describes the extent of oligarchy and wealth inequality in America.
• 25:51: Sanders details the diversity and significance of his recent rallies.
• 27:33: Sanders criticizes Democratic Party failures to inspire or deliver for working-class voters.
• 36:56: Jill Lepore’s expert question on third parties and Sanders’ nuanced response.
• 44:50: Sanders discusses AI's impact, the need for policy innovation like a robot tax.
• 51:04: Response to gerrymandering, Voting Rights Act threats, and need for mobilization.
• 54:44: The government shutdown’s stakes, especially for healthcare.
• 58:53: Sanders on AOC, leadership succession, and his legacy.

Tone & Language

The episode is candid and conversational, with Sanders frequently employing historical analogy, righteous indignation, and urgency. Swisher maintains her signature sharp, humorous, and sometimes skeptical tone, pushing Sanders to elaborate and clarify.

Final Takeaways

Bernie Sanders paints a stark picture of America at a crossroads between oligarchy and democracy, advocating grassroots mobilization, issue-focused progressive politics, and systemic reforms—especially in healthcare, campaign finance, and labor. He is wary of oligarchic influence from both parties, makes a pitch for broad-based coalition-building, and remains optimistic about the generational renewal of progressive politics, crediting figures like AOC and a diverse field of emerging leaders. Throughout, he ties contemporary struggles to America's history of popular movements, insisting that mass participation remains the engine of democratic renewal.