Beyond ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’: Margaret Atwood on Memoir, Grudges, & Getting Older

Summary

Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher

Episode: Beyond ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’: Margaret Atwood on Memoir, Grudges, & Getting Older
Date: December 8, 2025
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Margaret Atwood

---

Overview

In this lively and insightful conversation, journalist Kara Swisher interviews legendary Canadian author and poet Margaret Atwood to explore Atwood’s expansive life and career beyond her iconic novel The Handmaid’s Tale. Now 86 and with her first memoir (Book of Lives: A Memoir of Sorts) just published, Atwood discusses the personal and historical influences that have shaped her writing, her complicated relationship with feminism, her views on contemporary politics, technology, and aging, all with her characteristic humor and sharp wit.

---

Main Discussion Points

The Memoir and Its Striking Cover

• Atwood’s memoir is nearly 600 pages, delving into her past, her family, and how life informed her work.
• The cover, featuring Atwood in a dramatic pink outfit with her finger to her lips, was an unplanned result of a playful photo session.
  • “So you do. Because you’re weak spined like me. And here’s the matching gloves. … you start fooling around and you go, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. So that is Speak no evil. That’s on the front of the book.” (Margaret Atwood, 06:07)
• Postcards were created with different “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” images. Atwood jokes about not keeping the outfit.

Writing Memoir in Older Age

• Atwood waited to write a memoir until people she felt might be hurt, like her parents and long-time partner Graeme Gibson, had died.
• On memoirs written by the young:
  • “Memoirs written by younger people are usually center around an episode, an incident, a motif.” (Margaret Atwood, 09:15)
• Motif of Atwood’s memoir: “You never know.”

Revisiting the Past

• Atwood describes encountering “the benevolent dead” (her term) while revisiting unpublished early works.
  • “The benevolent ghosts are people that you liked and meant you well. And malevolent ones are people you didn’t like who didn’t mean you well.” (10:33)
• She laughs at the bad quality of some old writings:
  • “Thank you, Providence, for not publishing this work.” (11:23)
• Personal narrative changes with age; we rewrite our own stories as we understand events differently over time.

Childhood, Isolation, and Becoming a Writer

• Early life spent largely in Canada’s forests, instilling resourcefulness (“If something breaks, fix it. And if you don’t have the part, improvise... Never throw out a bendy piece of wire.” – 14:59)
• Rainy days meant reading and writing, fostering her love of poetry and stories.
• Atwood’s first collection: “Rhyming Cats” (written at age 6).

The Poet’s Calling

• Atwood frames poetry as something that calls you, not something you choose:
  • “Poetry says, come with me, and you either say yes or no. But if poetry doesn’t say, come, come with me, there’s no point.” (18:24)
• Childhood interests were wide—poetry, but also influenced by world events (Hungarian Revolution poems) and literary precedents like T.S. Eliot.

The Duality of the Writer’s Persona

• Atwood notes that every writer has multiple selves, joking hers split into “Peggy Nature” (her camp nickname) and “Margaret the writer.”
• “People say, well, what’s the connection? And I usually cite Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So I’m the Dr. Jekyll person and Margaret is the Mr. Hyde.” (Margaret Atwood, 27:22)
• Humor is a key, often overlooked, part of her writing—even in The Handmaid’s Tale.

Writing and Politics: Hope and History

• Atwood resists labels like “prophet,” instead calling herself a good guesser based on patterns of history: “The future. There are lots of possibilities … and then there are completely unexpected things that alter it a lot.” (41:04)
• Dictatorships often follow historical models already present in a society; in America, a religious leadership would be most likely.

Feminism, Factionalism, and Nuance

• The complexities and internal contradictions of feminism are discussed:
  • “Wikipedia … [lists] 75 different kinds of feminism. So when somebody says, are you a feminist? I always say, what kind did you have in mind?” (37:07)
• Atwood endured factional infighting in the women’s movement, but also notes the real gains of the 1970s (“your own credit card even if you’re married”).
• She critiques both those who idolize her lifestyle as feminist and those who overlook her personal desires (she wanted more children, marriage—but her partner did not).

---

Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Growing Older and Perspective

• “If you’re lucky, you get older. If you’re not lucky, you die. … You either become more forgiving … or you become more set in your ways and curmudgeonly.” (12:42)

On the Writer’s Dual Nature

• “The writer side of people is usually somewhat more intense … somewhat darker in its imaginings.” (28:06)
• “The Handmaid’s Tale has a number of jokes.” (29:13)

On Historical Patterns

• “So you change the flag, you change the statutes, but really the structure is pretty similar.” (44:27)

On the Perils of Prophecy

• “There isn’t anyone [who can see the future].” (41:06)

On Technology and Social Media

• Atwood reflects on the early promise of Twitter, its descent into toxicity, and how tech titans have become command-like figures alongside authoritarians.

On the Role of the Left and the Right

• Atwood says she’s received more criticism from the left, who want her to preach their “sermon,” than from the right, who generally ignore books like The Handmaid’s Tale:
  • “When it came out as a movie in 1990 … we did get death threats for that. … And I said, why didn’t we get them for the book? … Well, those people don’t read.” (59:29)

---

Notable Segment Timestamps

• Book Cover & “Speak No Evil” photo – 04:57–06:45
• Why write a memoir at this age? – 07:39–08:50
• Revisiting youthful writing: “the benevolent dead” – 09:39–11:38
• Childhood, resourcefulness, and creative beginnings – 13:46–15:12
• Poetry’s call and creative imitation – 18:24–19:20
• Split writerly personas: Jekyll/Hyde – 27:09–28:13
• History repeats; dictatorships and The Handmaid’s Tale – 42:09–45:55
• Feminism’s factions and Atwood’s own wishes – 37:07–39:03
• Elizabeth Warren’s question: economic rights, power, women’s status in dystopia and now – 49:45–52:07
• On leaving legacy, writing, and “Swedish death cleaning” – 62:50–64:26
• AI, energy, and the limits of technology – 67:35–68:22
• Birding, environmentalism, and future perspectives – 68:24–71:05

---

Politics, Power & Hope

• Atwood and Swisher discuss the cyclical dangers of authoritarianism, drawing parallels between Gilead and contemporary U.S. politics:
  • “All dictatorships do this [take away women’s economic security] … I have an even more sinister view. I don’t think it’s confined to women. I think … the powers that be … have decided that there’s too many poor people.” (50:35, 51:44)
• Atwood’s advice: watch for voter suppression and gerrymandering, and trust Americans’ capacity for resistance and repair:
  • “I think you will get out of it, but there’s going to be an awful lot of repair work. … Things never do go back to exactly the way they were before.” (53:27–53:55)

---

Life, Death, and Birding

• Atwood is still writing, traveling, and birding—even if she doesn’t keep a “life list.”
  • “I grew up with birding because my family just knew all that. By the way, nature will kill us before we kill it.” (68:24, 69:05)
• Her views on aging: “Mostly they’re paper objects, so if you don’t want somebody doing your thesis on this, throw it out.” (64:38)

---

Final Takeaways

• Atwood reveals herself as thoughtful but unsentimental, intellectually rigorous but funny, hopeful but clear-eyed about political and environmental threats.
• Kara concludes:
  • “I thought [your memoir] was joyful, which is really a nice thing. And I recommend it to a lot of people. And they’re like, isn’t Margaret Atwood depressing? I’m like, no, she is not.” (73:04)
• Atwood:
  • “So many other things are so much more depressing than me right now that I come across as actually quite bouncy.” (73:13)

---

For fans and newcomers alike, this episode offers a multifaceted look at one of the most influential writers of our time, still as incisive, mischievous, and resilient as ever.

Transcript

[Margaret Atwood]

I've actually been to the Trotsky house in Mexico where he got ice picked. And you can also see the tiny little kitchen where poor Mrs. Trotsky had.

[Kara Swisher]

To deal with you. Always forget about Mrs. Trotsky.

Hi everyone From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Canadian author and poet Margaret Atwood. She's best known for her dystopian novel the Handmaid's Tale, which turned her into a literary star in the 1980s. The book saw another major boost in popularity when Hulu turned it into a hit series in 2017, just a few months after President Trump first took office. It burnished Atwood's reputation as someone who has an eerie prescience, as if she could see the rise of authoritarianism and the religious right in the US Long before anyone else could. But Atwood has actually written dozens of other important novels, poems, essays, short stories, and children's books. She's also a two time Booker Prize winner. And now at 86 years old, she's written her first memoir. It's called Book of A Memoir of sorts. At close to 600 pages, it's an intimate look at the ways her personal life inspired and shaped her writing. I think it's a must read. And she's such a legend in so many ways. And, and my favorite book is not Handmaid's Tale, it's Cat's Eye, about her young life and relationship with another girl who was a bully. But she was a much more complicated tale, this woman. She contains multitudes, let's just say, well beyond Handmaid's Tale. And I was hoping to bring that out in this interview. Before we get to my conversation with Atwood, I'm interviewing Dara Khosrowshahi, the CEO of Uber, and Chris Urmson, the CEO of Aurora, live on stage at the Hopkins Bloomberg center in Washington, D.C. on Monday, December 15th. These are gonna be two really sharp conversations about applied a autonomous vehicles to register for free tickets, Google, Hopkins, and Kara Swisher.

[Podcast Announcer]

All right, let's get into my interview.

[Kara Swisher]

With Margaret Atwood, whom I'm an enormous fan of and more so after this interview. Our expert question comes from Massachusetts Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren. So stick around.

[Podcast Announcer]

Support for the show comes from AT&T, the network that helps Americans make connections. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T.

[Sequoia Capital Sponsor]

Success is never a given, especially in tech, where everything is evolving at breakneck speed. And if you're trying something that's never been done before. Chances of success are even smaller. The difference between victory and catastrophe can all come down to following a counterintuitive instinct or ignoring conventional wisdom to make a bold decision. That's what Crucible Moments, the podcast from Sequoia Capital, is all about. Crucible Moments is back with a new season telling the unlikely triumphs at tech giants like supercell and Palo Alto Networks. New episodes are out now and available everywhere you get your podcasts [e-mail] listen to crucible moments today.

[Odoo Sponsor]

Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one, fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o.com.

[Margaret Atwood]

It.

[Podcast Announcer]

Is on Margaret, thanks for coming on on.

[Margaret Atwood]

I really appreciate it and it's lovely to be here.

[Kara Swisher]

So I have a lot to talk to you about. And as I said initially when we were first talking is I I know everyone asked you about Handmaid's Tale. I'm sure we'll get to it. But I was really delighted that the book covered lots of other things and the COVID was really striking. It's one of the most striking book covers and I'm sure you had a lot to do with it. You're wearing a bright pink coat with this dramatic accordion like collar. You also have a pair of matching pink gloves. I have to say my six year old daughter was thrilled with it. By the way, you're looking straight at the camera and you have your finger on your lips and it looks like you've either just told us a secret or. Or you're about to. I was fascinated by your cover. I don't know why, I don't usually pay attention, but I'd love you to talk about it. And what? Because it communicates a lot, I think.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay, so how did it come about?

So you know how these things go. There's a photographer, he brings a stylist, they have a lot of clothes that they want you to put on and you say I'd never wear that. I'd never wear that. I'D never wear that. I'd never wear that. So you put on the black clothing and do the serious author shot.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Margaret Atwood]

And so you do that. And then they say, well, just for fun, why don't you try on this big puffy thing that will make you look like a dandelion? And you say, oh, I would never wear that. And they say, just for fun, put it on. So you put that on and you do look like a dandelion. And then they say, well, just try on this nice pink one with the collar that looks like a folio. Oh, I would never wear that. Well, just for fun, put it on. So you do. Because you're weak spined like me. And here's the matching gloves. You put those on, and by this time, of course, you're a little groggy and you start fooling around and you go, hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. So that is Speak no evil. That's on the front of the book.

[Kara Swisher]

So you were weak spined. So it's a weak spined effort.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

You're not weak spined.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well.

Yes, we can talk about that, too. Yes. So that's how it came about. And the English.

Being always quite mischievous, put out a set of postcards with all three. And they also put out, in the advanced reading copies, they put some of them with Hear no Evil, some of them with See no Evil, and some of them with Speak no Evil.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I think it communicates a lot. Even if you're weak spined and didn't attend to and you were forced into.

[Margaret Atwood]

That, it is striking, and everybody's very happy with it. And I don't have the outfit because where would I wear it?

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. There's a lot of other choices you could have made. And I also like the idea of Book of Lives and a memoir of sorts, which is, I think, pretty much describes the book, which is that you contain multitudes. So let's talk about the contents of the book now, instead of just the COVID because the book isn't just this cover. In this case, slightly. You've written dozens of books, and this is your first memoir of sorts, as you said. You said one of the reasons you waited until you were in your 80s to write it is because, quote, people died. But also that includes people you write about very lovingly, like your parents and also your longtime partner and fellow author, Graham Gibson. Why do you feel like you needed that distance, even for people you love, to tell the story of your life?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I think you do, because it's the story of your life, not the story of their life, although their life has a lot to do with your life. In other words, if you didn't have parents, you wouldn't exist. So I did put in quite a lot about them. They were quite exceptional. I have written about them before in various works of fiction, but this allowed me to put the thing that my father wrote when he was fairly old about how he became an entomologist, which is a real back of the back woods two major university, 20th century story, part of which, of course, you're always part of your time and place. At that moment in time, they were looking for people like him. So today it wouldn't be so easy.

[Kara Swisher]

No, not at all.

[Margaret Atwood]

Not at all.

[Kara Swisher]

But when you think about telling the story of your life, do you have to be older to tell it? Do you feel.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, it's very hard to tell the story of your life, your pretty much entire life, because, quite frankly, we know the plot by now, Kara, and we kind of know how it's gonna end. But when you're 20, you don't know that.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

So it's all before you. Even when you're 30 and think you've just become an old person.

You really don't know, as they say while reading novels, how it's going to turn out. You don't know that. So memoirs written by younger people are usually center around an episode, an incident, a motif.

And they are circumscribed this many years.

Or this many months, quite.

[Kara Swisher]

Some time or something.

[Margaret Atwood]

A drug addiction, something like that. Yeah, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

What would you say the motif of your book is than if you had to?

[Margaret Atwood]

The motif. Yeah. You never know.

[Kara Swisher]

And you do not, actually. You still don't.

[Margaret Atwood]

You do not. You never know.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you never know. That's interesting. So you had to revisit a lot of your old work to write that book, including some early stories that were never published. And you say the process conjured up strange dreams that were. You were conversing with the benevolent dead. Explain. I love that phrase, the benevolent dead. Cause there's other kinds, by the way. Explain what you mean by that. And also, what was it like to revisit those stories and photos you put aside for decades?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So ghosts, voices from the past. So we're back with Scrooge and the Ghost of Christmas Past. When Scrooge says long past, and the ghost says, no, your past.

So the ghost of your past, you as an individual. And everybody has them, unless they've lost their memory and they don't.

The benevolent ghosts are people that you liked and meant you well. And malevolent ones are people you didn't like who didn't mean you well.

[Kara Swisher]

And did you?

[Margaret Atwood]

What else can I say about that?

[Kara Swisher]

When you think about that? Because I want to get into your book, Cat's Eye. It's my favorite book of yours, actually.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh. Oh. You knew Cordelia.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I did indeed. We all knew it at Cordelia. But when you have to revisit those stories, tell me what that was like.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay. Things that weren't published, of which there are a lot, because I wrote copiously from the age of 16 onward. And who knows why I saved this stuff, but I did. So your reaction to those is, thank you, Providence, for not publishing this work.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you ever look at something and think, that's good?

[Margaret Atwood]

I thought this was written by quite a weird person.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, wow.

[Podcast Announcer]

Okay.

[Margaret Atwood]

That's what I thought.

[Kara Swisher]

Really?

[Margaret Atwood]

But I also thought, yes, it has promise, but I wouldn't want to live or die by this.

[Kara Swisher]

Did it make you change how you thought of your younger self? I mean, everyone has a version of what they thought they thought of themselves. And then there's the reality.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. Oh. I think your version of yourself changes from decade to decade and even from year to year, because we are all involved in narrative revisions and changes of point of view. So something that seemed like a terrible tragedy to you when you were 18 seems like a funny anecdote when you're 40. And then when you're 70, you may have forgotten all about it. So we all do that. We all prune, edit, and look at things from a different perspective. And if we're writing murder mysteries or if they're great unsolved mysteries in our lives, we can even have aha moments. No. You open the drawer and here's the letter from somebody telling you things that you really didn't know at all.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right?

[Kara Swisher]

Right. How did your personal narrative get revised, would you say, as you looked at that?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I think you get older. If you're lucky, you get older. If you're not lucky, you die. So as you get older, your perspective on your own actions, other people's actions, that changes. And I think you either become more forgiving and tolerant and understanding of things, or you become more set in your ways and curmudgeonly. And since I knew some set in their ways and curmudgeonly people when I was younger, I try not to be that person, although I can feel sometimes traces of it creeping in. So I see what they did and how they behaved with what I like to think is more perspective in doing it.

[Kara Swisher]

So a lot of the early chapters are about your childhood and summers you spent in Canadian forests around Lake Superior. Your father, as you said, was an entomologist. He studied insects that caused forest infestations. And you describe your mother as a tomboy.

[Podcast Announcer]

Kind of.

[Kara Swisher]

I guess that's an old word.

[Margaret Atwood]

Without a doubt. Well, tomboy doesn't necessarily mean gay. It just means not interested in frilly frocks.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Well, that would be me, but I'm also gay. But that's a different story. But it's an old word. I wonder if there's a new word for that. But how do you think of those?

[Margaret Atwood]

That's how she described herself.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that was the word of the.

[Margaret Atwood]

Day, so I'm happy to stick with her vocabulary.

[Kara Swisher]

That's fine by me. So how do you think those summers shaped your sense of self and what it meant as you got older?

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay, so we're not talking summers, we're talking 2/3 of the year. So from the time the ice would go out in northern Quebec to the time when it would set in again. So insects do nothing in the winter. And anyway, we would have frozen to death because our house that my father built didn't have any insulation. It wasn't made as a winter residence. So how did all of that shape me? And we're talking about quite a few years. First of all, if there's a problem, figure it out. So don't just sit down and go, boo hoo.

If something breaks, fix it. And if you don't have the part, improvise.

So never throw out a bendy piece of wire.

[Kara Swisher]

So bendy piece is wire is what you brought away from that.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yes. Are you listening to me? Are you paying attention? Collect those bendy pieces of wire now because you may need them. Right, right.

[Kara Swisher]

Sort of MacGyver attitude from an early age. You're also drawn even in those settings. Obviously it's beautiful place. There's a lot of physicality to the world being outdoors. But you were also drawn to writing in the more reflective arts. And you were six when you wrote your first book of poems called rhyming cats. At 16, you decided you wanted to be a poet, although you say in the book you're not sure why. Talk about sort of the development of you as a writer in this setting then, that was so impactful to you.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay. In this setting, there was nothing else to do when it was raining.

So you could read, you could draw, you could write. That was it. So no movies? No Saturday morning programs for children? No.

Not much. Radio. Sometimes we seem to have gotten the Soviet Union. I don't know why.

And no television. It didn't really come in anyway, until the 50s. And what else was there? None of. No theater, no school.

So when it rained, you either did your school lessons, if you were old enough to have any, or you read and wrote. And I read from an early age, partly because two stories my brother taught me. Second story, nobody would read the funny papers to me. Do you know what the funny papers were?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, sure I do.

[Podcast Announcer]

I'm old.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm old, Martin. I knew the funny papers. I read Nancy growing up, so.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, yeah? Yeah. No, she was good. She was never funny, actually, Nancy was not funny.

[Kara Swisher]

Never go back and look at it. I would sit and wait and see if it would be funny. It was never funny. Well, I remember.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, she had little. She had adventures.

[Kara Swisher]

She did. She did. So you had nothing to do. So rain, essentially, is what you're saying when it rained?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. Rain is the cause? No, I would say nature abhors a vacuum, so vacuum is the cause. There wasn't anything else to do. So we're in a Bronte situation in which we had an imaginary universe or two, and we made up stories about that and sometimes we wrote them down or made pictures about them. And I think a lot of kids do that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, they used to.

One of my kids is like, what did you used to do when you stood in line? I'm like, nothing.

So what drew you to poetry specifically as a kid, as opposed to writing novels or biology, like other. Like science or something? You write about your decision to become a poet. When you were crossing your high school football field on the way home one day, do you remember the four line poem you said composed in your head?

[Margaret Atwood]

I do, but I'm not gonna tell it to you because it's not very good.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, all right.

[Margaret Atwood]

What else can I tell you about it?

[Kara Swisher]

What made you decide to be a poet there with not a very good poem, or why poetry first?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. You don't decide to be a poet of a poet.

Poetry says, come with me, and you either say yes or no. But if poetry doesn't say, come, come with me, there's no point.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

If you look at the juvenilia of people who became quotes, famous poets.

Usually what has survived shows promise. But it's not the same as their later work because they go through an apprentice.

Period in which they're essentially imitating other poets and things that they feel an affinity with. And I did describe my period of writing. A lot of garbage blowing around on the streets. T.S. eliot esque types of poems.

[Kara Swisher]

That was your inspiration, T.S.

[Margaret Atwood]

Eliot? Oh, I had a lot of them, but he was the one I imitated in university because, hey, he was the guy.

[Kara Swisher]

He was the guy. Mine was Louise Glock. I love Louise Glock.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, but she hadn't appeared yet.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I know that. So can you tell us what that poem was about or the topics that interested you when you started?

[Margaret Atwood]

When I started. Well, I did describe my rather bad poem about. In fact, I put it in about the Hungarian revolution.

Okay, you weren't born in 1956.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I almost was born, but.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, it was very cliffhanging at the time. Everybody got very excited about it and then they got very despondent as it was crushed. And a lot of people died, a lot were arrested and a lot of them came to Canada.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I didn't realize.

[Margaret Atwood]

So I knew a number of these and still known people who had gotten out at that time.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, for me it was Salvador. That was. I read a lot of Carolyn Forche and then Glock.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, well, Carolyn Forche is an old pal and she told me about El Salvador as we were driving away from the Mount St. Helens volcanic eruption away from Portland.

[Kara Swisher]

Wow.

[Margaret Atwood]

So the story of that was I was supposed to go out and read poetry there with Carolyn Forche. This mountain blew up. So I phoned them and said, is it still okay to come to Portland? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The wind always blows in the other direction. So we're doing the reading and we look out the window and it's snowing ash, but it isn't snow, it's volcanic ash. So by the time we're finished the reading, you can't get out of Portland. So no planes. Everybody's taken the last train. Buses aren't running, nothing. So we feel quite trapped. And we arm twist and browbeat somebody into driving us to Eugene, Oregon, which is out of the fall zone. And we hire a car and we both have a plane that we're supposed to be catching from San Francisco. So we drive down the coast of California in the dark and to keep stopping at Smitty's pancake houses and to keep ourselves awake. This was back in the days when I could drive no longer with me. We told each other stories of our lives.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God.

[Margaret Atwood]

And one of the stories of the lives that she told me was El Salvador and what was going on there. And I said, well, can you write about this? No, no, nobody will publish it. They're all too scared. I said, well, why don't you publish it in Canada? Oh my God, why don't you break the story in Canada? And which she did.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't. For people who don't know, Karen Forcher wrote a beautiful book of poetry about El Salvador called the Country Between Us. And I can't believe you're the reason. Well, thank you.

[Margaret Atwood]

Let me just say I'm not the reason. Well, I'm not the reason. I'm just the fix it person.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it works for me. It's one of my most important things plumber I've ever read, actually, so. Especially the Colonel. Of course, everyone knows the Colonel, but I like the entire book, actually.

[Margaret Atwood]

Carolyn, I hope you're listening. Carolyn.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Podcast Announcer]

Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. You know how important it is to hire the right person for your small business. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant.

[Kara Swisher]

So you can feel confident you're finding.

[Podcast Announcer]

Top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. LinkedIn says that employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal when every hire counts. Hiring doesn't have to be complicated.

[Kara Swisher]

And let's be real, when you have.

[Podcast Announcer]

A business to run, you don't have the hours to spend on hiring. And you can't just wait around hoping the right person stumbles upon your job. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you.

[Kara Swisher]

Can invite them to apply and keep things moving.

[Podcast Announcer]

Hire right the first time. Post your job for [e-mail] Cara then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant, making it easier and faster.

[Kara Swisher]

To find top candidates.

[Podcast Announcer]

That's LinkedIn.com Cara to post your job for free. Terms and conditions Apply.

Support for this show comes from rippling. HR teams were promised modern tools, but ended up with a stack of disconnected apps. Onboarding, payroll, benefits, compliance. All of them in different places. And that doesn't sound like software as a service. It actually sounds more like it's sad software as a disservice. It's time to spend less time on checklists and more time on strategy. It's time to run on rippling. Rippling is the unified platform for global hr, payroll, IT and finance. They've helped millions replace their mess of cobbled together tools with one system designed to give leaders clarity, speed and control. By uniting your employees, teams and departments in one system, Rippling removes the bottlenecks, busy work and silos your software created automated, perfectly in sync and seriously simple to use, Rippling gives your company one source of truth for your people, their data and everything they touch. With Rippling, you can run your entire hr, IT and finance operations as one. Or pick and choose the products that best fill the gaps in your software stack. And right now you can get six months free when you go to rippling.com Kara learn more at R I P P L-I-N-.com Kara K A R A that's rippling.com Kara for six months free. Terms and conditions apply.

Support for this show comes from AT&T Wireless companies love to make bold claims, like how they have the best coverage or how you'll never lose a call on their networks. And yet we've all had the experience of being stuck with spotty service or missing out because we couldn't connect well. One provider actually has the goods to.

[Kara Swisher]

Back it all up.

[Podcast Announcer]

AT&T Based on third party metrics, AT&T has the rest beat while the other guys are busy making claims they can't keep. AT&T is making connections on America's fastest.

[Kara Swisher]

And most reliable wireless network.

[Podcast Announcer]

So no matter if you're out at a concert, a huge sporting event, or out enjoying nature, you can post when you want to post, call when you want to call, and rest easy knowing no matter where you go, ATT has got you covered. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T based on root metrics. United States root score report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may vary. Root metrics rankings are not an endorsement of AT&T.

[Kara Swisher]

So let's pivot to your career in some of these books. The duality is a theme that runs through a lot of your work, including this memoir. And you say every writer has at least two beings, the one who lives and the one who writes. But you say in your case there are more than 2. As you said on the COVID book of lives.

That comes through with these two parts of your identity. There's the Peggy Nature side, the nickname you earned as a teenage camp counselor. Then there's the author, Margaret Atwood side, who's maybe a little more serious, maybe not. So how is Margaret the person distinctly different from Margaret the writer?

[Margaret Atwood]

Margaret the person? Yeah, well, is there A Margaret the person.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know.

[Margaret Atwood]

No, we don't know. Maybe there's just Peggy the person and Margaret the writer.

Which would be very neat.

So people say, well, what's the connection? And I usually cite Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. So I'm the Dr. Jekyll person and Margaret is the Mr. Hyde.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, explain that, please. I can't leave that there on the ground.

[Margaret Atwood]

You could.

[Kara Swisher]

I could, but I'm not going to. I should have just picked it up. And I'm asking you what it is.

[Margaret Atwood]

I know you are. Okay. So Mr. Hyde. And we're not going to push this too far because Mr. Hyde is unequivocally evil, but let us say that the writer side of people is usually somewhat more intense, and it's usually.

Somewhat darker in its imaginations, in its imaginings.

Especially if you're writing in the 20th and 21st centuries, when carefree social comedy is harder to write than it was in, say.

1820.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Cause those are the fun days.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, no, it's that social classes were.

Isolated and you could write about them as if nothing else existed.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. As things weren't linked to each other. So you think the writer is darker than the. I would. It's what's very interesting. I've seen you speak at a number of things. I never had the guts to come up and introduce myself. But your humor really comes through in your memoir in a way that I have seen you in public at speeches and various book readings. And you're very funny, which is something I was caught off guard by. I think many people are. I had someone sitting next to me, and they were like, she's hysterical. Like, how dare she be? She wrote the Handmaid's Tale. How can she be not dying?

[Margaret Atwood]

The Handmaid's Tale has a number of jokes.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree. I agree. But when you think about yourself and your presentation, because you do carry around the seriousness part of it. Right. And the darkness part, as a public figure.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. What can I say about that? Somebody said to me, why do you always write these gloomy dystopias? And you're so pessimistic. I said, I'm not really. Because I didn't kill them all off at the end. You know, some people have.

[Kara Swisher]

So that's the hopeful part. They're not all dead.

[Podcast Announcer]

Correct?

[Margaret Atwood]

They're not all dead. Yeah, they're not all dead. And as for the Handmaid's Tale, we know by the historical note at the end that this regime did not last.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Exactly. Which I think I actually tend to argue when people are talking about your books that they're actually quite hopeful. Cause they're about the fight, the existence of a fight that continues despite.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, yeah. There is always a resistance. And that can go either way. Yeah. So for my characters, I write the year of their birth and then all the years across the top, and I write the months down the side. And that allows me to pinpoint what is going on in their lives when they are a certain age. So we all are part of our own time and place. And I cannot escape the fact that I was born in 1939, two months after World War II began. So the whole Hitler trajectory, the whole World War II trajectory was part of my growing up. And so was this Stalin trajectory, which was somewhat different.

But it too eventually fell apart. The question.

That always occurs when these things fall apart is what happens then? What replaces it?

[Kara Swisher]

What becomes it?

[Margaret Atwood]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

It's an interesting idea because one of the things. I have a relative. Even though I sort of rail on tech and tech and billionaires and things like that, everyone's like, you're rather hopeful. And I said, well, to me, all dictators end up dead in a hole. That's been my historical.

[Margaret Atwood]

Just observation, but so does everybody.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. But there's a dead in a hole and then there's.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, there's a dead in a hole.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, killed by their people or strung upside down or the Ceausescus or.

[Margaret Atwood]

A lot of them. Not Stalin. He died with his boots on.

[Kara Swisher]

He did. I lived in Germany right after the Wall fell. I covered stuff there and it was really interesting. It was a really.

[Margaret Atwood]

What part of. Were you in Berlin?

[Kara Swisher]

I lived in Berlin and the Wall had just fallen. And I lived in Kreuzberg, which was right next to the Wall at the time.

[Margaret Atwood]

Cheap at the time.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

And it was still there, pieces of it. I mean, it had been broke. But what was really interesting is when I went into East Germany and they had never been taught about the Holocaust that much, or that it was their fault or anything else. And so they had a whole different history. And it was completely. It was riveting. And of course, the West Germans had been very much taught about the Holocaust and their culpability. And so the difference between them and I was covering race riots about immigrants. They were anti immigrant in Rostock. And I'll never forget there was a. It was the birthday of Rudolf Hess. So they. These neo Nazis went and had a march and you couldn't do it in West Germany. So they wandered all over East Germany. I followed them in a small car.

And I kept thinking, God, Rudolf Hess is the worst Nazi to celebrate. But all right. And all these people were in East Germany were celebrating this, which was really interesting, except for one woman who stood in front of the march and said, schade, which is shame, of course. And I wrote about her, but it was. It was something else. And you wrote part of the Handmaid's Tale while you were in West Germany and visited East Germany.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, West Berlin.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. But you also went there before the Wall file, correct?

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Tell me a little bit about that.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, it was very tight.

In fact, it was the tightest probably, of those East Bloc countries. And people didn't really want to interact with you as adults, so they were quite happy to say, oh, decline an angle about your child that was safe. But obviously everybody was worried about who else was watching them, and rightly so, because we now know that at least one in every 50 East Germans was spying for the regime through those files that came out. Right. You probably know this book called Stasiland.

So, yeah, so that was East Germany with terrible ice cream and awful chocolate and not much you could spend your converted money on, which you then couldn't convert back. So there was always a cash grab at the border. You had to change Western money into their Deutsche Marks and you could not reconvert it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So you had to keep their money. I assume it was formative, seeing that, presumably.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, it was very interesting. And then we went to Czechoslovakia, also very interesting and pretty tight, but not as tight. And then we went to Poland, which was very loose, even in 1984.

So I thought to myself at that time, it's going to crumble here first, which it did.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And then Czechoslovakia and then East Germany.

[Margaret Atwood]

But Poland had a big opposition, namely the Catholic Church. And it was huge. And it was so big that they couldn't arrest and shoot everybody, although they arrested and shot some people.

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

They did. When you think so, like, we're talking about your lived experiences. Influence in your writing, though. In your memoir, you revealed that you were bullied by a group of girls when you were nine, and your experience inspired Cat's Eye, which, again, is my favorite of your books. And you're right, everybody has a Cordelia, I feel.

[Margaret Atwood]

Not everybody. Some people were Cordelia.

[Podcast Announcer]

Oh, right.

[Kara Swisher]

Fair.

[Margaret Atwood]

There's an imbalance there. If everybody has one.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, everyone who writes about a Cordelia had one. And Cordelia doesn't write. That's.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, sometimes Cordelia does write, but not. She writes different Things. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Could you read a little bit from the part of the book for us?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So I'm talking about Cat's Eye. But despite its universality, it was true that parts of the novel were autobiographical. I avoided saying so then because the chief perp was still alive. She'd become a teenage friend and we'd kept in touch. But now she and her immediate family are all dead. While writing the novel, I came to realize that she was a damaged person, that she was a lot unhappier than I'd ever been, and that she would be hurt if I identified her. Did she even remember what she had done to me in some way? Probably. Though for her it had been a sort of game. For me, on the other hand, it had been serious. Anyone who thinks that females are perfect, that girls are nicer, that every sadistic thing girls and women do is the fault of the patriarchy, is either forgotten a lot or never been a nine year old girl at school. The desire for power is a human constant, though the ways of demonstrating this desire change according to to circumstances. Amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. So your Cordelia was a girl named Sandra. How did that experience of being bullied play into your views? Because I think that's a very nuanced view of feminism.

[Margaret Atwood]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

And your willingness to criticize some aspects of the movement. I find it to be factual. Again, factual, like I was.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So if you look on Wikipedia, at least last time I looked, there were 75 different kinds of feminism.

So when somebody says, are you a feminist? I always say, what kind did you have in mind? Because there are many different kinds, and I saw it during the 70s and there are factions, sub factions, differences of opinion, arguments. All of this stuff goes on. While feminism is actually achieving some Successes in the 70s.

The right to have your own credit card even if you're married. And a lot of other things actually got achieved, but there was always factionalism. And you do find that whenever something new hits the ground. I'm quite interested in the moment, at the moment, in the Cromwellian revolution in England in the 17th century. So I'm reading Gaudette and I did not realize it was so factional. It doesn't mean that the movement has no value. It doesn't mean that.

The people in it are not serious people or anything like that. It just seems to be something that happens at these moments in human history when things are in.

Serious flux.

[Kara Swisher]

So you have a reputation for writing stories that do speak to women, though, and the issues they Face. But on a personal level, many feminists idolize the fact that you never married your longtime partner, Graham Gibson. You didn't take his name. You had one daughter. But that's not what you actually wanted reading this. You wanted to get married and have more kids. It was something he apologized to you for toward the end of his life, as you write. But talk about the disconnect between your personal life and how people perceived you.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, you kind of get stuck with these things, which you can't contradict without sounding like a complete idiot.

Or just unbelievable. So the reason Graham didn't want to get married, which is quite funny from this perspective, from my age now, it's quite funny. He said he already had known three Mrs. Gibsons and he didn't want to create another one. So his mother, his stepmother, and his ex wife were all Mrs. Gibson.

Don't you think that sounds quite strange?

[Kara Swisher]

It does, it does.

But wait, so you just don't correct people, like, in that regard?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I can correct them now because all those people are dead.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. That's a fair point.

[Margaret Atwood]

But I couldn't correct them at the time without causing real trouble with the stepmother and the ex wife who were still alive and still, you know, joined at the hip in some way with Graham's life because he had two sons.

So you can say the dilemma. Well, actually, it's not my decision not to get married, it's Graham's because he dislikes the other members of Gibson. You know, that would not have added to tranquility and general peace of mind.

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. And what's good about this book, I have to say, there's definitely. I like score settling myself personally. But you do score settle with Gibson's ex wife, as there isn't any good memoir. One of your friends is quoted in one of the first pages, is saying, don't piss her off or you'll live forever, which I love. But you also draw, you know, but you do draw in history, extensively, to shape novels that are set in the future, like the Handmaid's Tale.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, what else do you have to draw on? Because you can't actually time travel to the future, much as we would like to believe you can. You cannot do it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. But how do you marry the personal with a historical to write what you call speculative fiction, which is what you call it. Other people think you're some kind of clairvoyant or, look, she was right, etc.

[Margaret Atwood]

I know.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, you reject that, correct?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, yeah, I reject the prophetess because, in fact, There isn't anyone. The future. There are lots of possibilities for the future, and then there are completely unexpected things that alter it a lot. So a volcano blows up, so the bubonic plague hits Europe.

You know, all of those things you could not necessarily have predicted. In fact, you couldn't have predicted them at all.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. But you are precious. I would say prescient profit probably is too much. I mean, the rise of authoritarianism, the financial collapse, the pandemic. But you say you were just pointing out things that could happen and that we should be on the lookout for.

[Margaret Atwood]

Absolutely.

[Kara Swisher]

But you certainly are putting things together. You're almost like one of those CIA agents who figures out scenarios. Right. That's what. What you're doing is scenario building.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And I've. I read a lot of murder mysteries as a child. I also read a lot of sci fi as a child.

So. Yeah. How will it work out? What is the what if scenario? What if. So what if America were to become a totalitarian dictatorship? What kind of totalitarian dictatorship would it be? And for that, of course, you always look at a country's past history, see what it has been. So under the Tsar, Russia was an absolutist state with an extensive secret service and a gulag archipelago. Communist revolution happens. Everything's going to be wonderful. These things always come in as utopias, you know that.

And then, bingo, it's a totalitarian regime with an even bigger secret service and an even larger gulag archipelago.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. You are talking about DNA or things going back to their shape.

[Margaret Atwood]

No, no, no, no. Just patterns that people are used to and that they tend to fall back into. So the Aztecs, when they wanted to build a new pyramid, didn't knock down the old one, they built a new one on top of it. And that's what countries are always doing. So the old regime in China was an extensive bureaucracy.

And so was Mao's once things got settled down.

[Kara Swisher]

Got settled down. So we don't sort of move out of our shape, is what you're saying.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, we can move out of it temporarily, but we have a habit of falling back on a shape that we already know.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right, right.

[Margaret Atwood]

So communist regime goes down in Russia, goodbye authoritarianism, it's all going to be wonderful. In comes capitalism. You can get Kentucky Fried Chicken in Moscow. I'm not sure if that's true, but you can certainly get burgers. And then along comes, you know who, Mr. Putin, and basically he wants to restore a combination of the Tsar.

[Kara Swisher]

He does.

[Margaret Atwood]

And Stalin.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Old Russia.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, well, old Russia, you know, in his mind, obviously Stalinist Russia was pretty much the same as Tsarist Russia.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Margaret Atwood]

So you change the flag, you change the statutes, but really the structure is pretty similar.

[Kara Swisher]

So are you essentially saying you're a good guesser based on historical observation?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So we go back to the 17th century in America. The answer to our question, what kind of dictatorship would it be? Would not be a communist dictatorship. It would not be the French Republic during the revolution. It wouldn't be anything like that. It would not build a cardboard mountain and have a festival to the divine being. Although you'll notice on the American money, there is that eye in the triangle.

[Kara Swisher]

I saw. National Treasure. I know.

[Margaret Atwood]

Anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. The Masons got in there pretty solidly. In the 18th century, you would have a group of elect elders running what is essentially.

A dictatorship. They got to say what people were going to do. But you could not become one of those elect elders unless you had a personal conversation with God. According to whom I put in parentheses. So it's much less likely to be a one person dictatorship and much more likely to be a top group of people like the commanders in the Handmaid's.

[Kara Swisher]

Tale or say the billionaires in front row at the.

[Margaret Atwood]

At the inauguration.

Like that.

I'm not sure who's actually running the American government at this at this time, and neither is anybody else.

[Kara Swisher]

That is correct. One of my favorite parts of American history is the chaotic nature of it, which is why it won't last.

We'll be back in a minute.

[Podcast Announcer]

Support for this show comes from LinkedIn. You know how important it is to hire the right person for your small business. That's why LinkedIn Jobs is stepping things up with their new AI assistant. So you can feel confident you're finding top talent that you can't find anywhere else. The best part is those great candidates are already on LinkedIn. LinkedIn says that employees hired through LinkedIn are 30% more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor. That's a big deal when every hire counts. Hiring doesn't have to be complicated. And let's be real. When you have a business to run, you don't have the hours to spend on hiring. And you can't just wait around hoping the right person stumbles upon your job. That's why LinkedIn Jobs AI assistant suggests 25 great fit candidates daily so you.

[Kara Swisher]

Can invite them to apply and keep things moving.

[Podcast Announcer]

Hire right the first time. Post your job for [e-mail] then promote it to use LinkedIn jobs new AI assistant making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's LinkedIn.com Kara to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

Support for this show comes from Deleteme. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable, Deleteme does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites.

[Kara Swisher]

How does it work?

[Podcast Announcer]

You sign up and provide Deleteme with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. And it's not just a one time thing. DeleteMe can constantly monitor or remove personal information you don't want on the Internet.

[Kara Swisher]

Throughout the year.

[Podcast Announcer]

I've gotten to use Deleteme and I.

[Kara Swisher]

Find it really easy to use.

[Podcast Announcer]

They have a simple dashboard that's easy to navigate and understand.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm.

[Podcast Announcer]

I'm a privacy nut and I am always surprised by how much of my information is out there, much of it inaccurate, which is also just as bad. I get updates all the time and I act on them and I really.

[Kara Swisher]

Like having the ability to use it. I've used a lot of these services.

[Podcast Announcer]

And most of them I find confounding.

[Kara Swisher]

This is super easy and very simple to use and that's what's important.

[Podcast Announcer]

You can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and get and use the promo code cara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and enter code Cara at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Cara code Kara.

[Odoo Sponsor]

Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's o d o o dot com.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's move on to the current state of politics for a second. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from Massachusetts Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren.

[Elizabeth Warren]

So, Margaret, I am a big fan and I wanted to ask you a question. In the Handmaid's Tale, one of the first things the government of Gilead does is strip women of their economic rights. From closing bank accounts to firing all female employees. That's the canary in the coal mine before Gilead rips away the rest of their rights. So flash forward to now. Women have lost a disproportionate number of jobs since Donald Trump took office. Women, small business owners are feeling the strain of Trump's chaotic tariffs and skyrocketing costs more acutely. In short, women are bearing the brunt of an economy that's flattening just about everyone. So people have called you prescient. How do you view this moment?

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay, the women moment. Well, all dictatorships do this. I can't think of one that has not. Sometimes they have nice slogans at the beginning, Women hold up, have the sky, et cetera. But it doesn't usually play out. It sometimes plays out that a. A select group of women get fairly high profile positions. And you can see that in the Trump government, there are a number of cabinet people and certainly the White House spokesperson. They're all women.

But that doesn't translate any more than it did with duchesses into the lives of ordinary women. And they do seem to be. I mean, the. Even the.

Early Soviet state in which it was supposed to have all of these improvements, resulted in total chaos for women. They had no security.

Yeah. So I have an even more sinister view. I don't think it's confined to women. I think that the powers that be in the United States have decided that there's too many poor people.

So all of the changes that they are making in food security and in healthcare, and particularly in not providing medical care to pregnant women may run into difficulties. The end result is gonna be people dying. So I think it's a plan to get rid of poor people. Does that sound too.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I think you're.

[Margaret Atwood]

Absolutely.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they hate them. I think they hate them. And of course, they get them to vote for them, too. I just interviewed Beth Macy, who wrote Dopesick is a new book about her small town. And that's exactly what's happening to them. And yet they voted for Trump, which was interesting.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, he gives the appearance of standing up for the common person.

But it's only an appearance as I'm sure they're going to discover all.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they kind of discovered it. I mean, one of the things you said is if you were an American, you'd be worrying a lot about my country right now and that we should pay attention to the patterns of power grabs, infighting, and the disintegration of the rule of law. What are the things you think people should look out for? And these. What alarm bells do you see? And I think you are actually a hopeful person. What is the antidote to that in the history you've seen of the United States?

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, you mean, how are you going to get out of it?

[Kara Swisher]

We opened our last podcast event in Toronto. We sold out immediately, and we apologize to the entire country of Canada on behalf of all Americans, except for. For the Trump people.

[Margaret Atwood]

But I don't think you have to apologize on behalf of all Americans, because half of Americans.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I know, but we felt bad.

[Margaret Atwood]

So we just said, yeah, well, thank you, but don't apologize for things you didn't do.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. That's true.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. How are you going to get out of it? Well, I think you will get out of it, but there's going to be an awful lot of repair work. And will it go back to the way it was before? No, because things never do. They don't go back to exactly the way they were before, which is why it was always a pipe dream. Make America great again. Just exactly what period of history were you thinking of?

So I think what you really have to pay attention to is voter fraud and gerrymandering, what they're going to try next in order to maintain control of the government.

But I think it's also not out of the question that there will be a rebellion from within the ranks of, for instance, the army, that there will be resistance. And I think there's already a certain amount of resistance going on with people just not falling in with this plan, not accepting as a given, you know, the patently illegal actions that parts of this government have been doing.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Margaret Atwood]

So rule of law.

We won't talk about the Supreme Court, but general rule of law judges who actually know the.

[Kara Swisher]

Law, which they've been very strong here.

[Margaret Atwood]

A lot of them have been very strong. And how far is the current regime willing to go in its defiance of the law? And how many Americans will actually sit still for that?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I have to tell you, there's a distinct fuck this guy sentiment across the country. More so.

[Margaret Atwood]

How do you know that?

[Kara Swisher]

I traveled just extensively recently and from people.

[Margaret Atwood]

Do you talk to Joe, in the diner. I have.

[Kara Swisher]

They're all my relatives. They're my relatives. And it's more like that, you know, it's a lot of people. It was interesting. Were like, well, I think there's too much immigration. But not like this. Like, this isn't how we feel. But not like this is said by a lot of people.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Like, I believe in. I don't love trans people. Whatever. They hate trans people. But. But not like this. But not. But not like this enters into every sentence. So they don't like the method, even if they might agree with some of the issues they have. And I think affordability has trumped everything. Yeah, everything costs more.

[Margaret Atwood]

I think so.

[Kara Swisher]

Everything. Right now, an inexpensive chicken sandwich costs as much as someone makes in an hour. So I think that says it to everybody.

[Margaret Atwood]

Like what?

[Kara Swisher]

So, yeah, I have a lot of West Virginia relatives, so I pay a lot of attention to them. There's a passage in the book about how you started using Twitter. One of the things that I write about a lot is the impact of social media. When it started to become popular, you said it helped you fill some seats for a New York event that hadn't gotten much publicity, helped you recover a laptop you accidentally left on the plane. This is all good. But how are you thinking about the downsides of social media and the rise of these tech titans alongside authoritarianism in politics right now? Because they're the version of the commanders here. Alongside authoritarianism and politics.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. And they didn't start out that way.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, they did. I was there.

[Margaret Atwood]

No, they didn't.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Margaret Atwood]

That was not the public face they were putting on.

[Kara Swisher]

No, but that's what they were like. But go ahead.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, okay. Sure. Any entrepreneurial person is going to want one thing, more market share and a second thing, their shares going up in value.

So of course they want those things. And it was brought in same as the Internet. And I remember when that started, it was a bunch of.

Scientists who wanted to be able to exchange information more quickly. And, hey, it was great at the beginning. And so was Twitter at the beginning.

[Kara Swisher]

Agree.

[Margaret Atwood]

It was a fun place. You could use it in helpful ways. You could share information helpfully. And in my mind, the Democrats won the Obama election because they figured out social media and the Republicans hadn't, but then they did.

So. Yeah. The other rule of military history, which I'm sure you know perfectly well, is that if you invent a new weapon that's quite successful, your enemy's going to get hold of it pretty quickly and use it against You.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Margaret Atwood]

So that's always what happens.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you still on Twitter? I had 1.6 million followers. I'm not on it. I like left. I called it a Nazi porn bar and I said, I just don't like Nazi porn bars.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, I'm still on it because a number of people that I follow are still on it. And I did set up a Blue sky account, but I haven't really figured out how to use it.

[Kara Swisher]

It's the same.

[Margaret Atwood]

It's the same. Yeah. Same threads.

[Kara Swisher]

They're all the same.

[Margaret Atwood]

They're all the same.

[Kara Swisher]

No, it's not a Nazi porn bar over there. It's actually. Speaking of which, it's very left in that regard. And you talked that you've come under attack more from the left than the right through your career, and that the left thinks you should be preaching their sermon, whatever that may be. What has to happen in this retrenchment of the right that many spent decades fighting for? Because right now everything is the binary. Right?

[Margaret Atwood]

You mean over here? Over here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly. Because you're complex and I think people want you to be something. Right?

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, sure they do, but good luck with that.

[Kara Swisher]

I can see that. I can see that. But you have said they've been tougher on you if you don't follow through on a verb.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, first of all, they were actually paying attention to me, whereas most people on the right don't.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, that's true. That's fair.

[Margaret Atwood]

So when the Handmaid's Tale came out as a book, we didn't get any death threats. When it came out as a movie in 1990, just as the Wall was coming down, we launched it in east and west at the same time.

We did get death threats for that. And I said, why didn't we get them for the book? And they said, well, those people don't read.

So I must ask the TV series people how they're doing in that department. But it is a conundrum for the. For the right, because why are you objecting to someone portraying what it is you have said you actually want to do?

[Kara Swisher]

And the answer when you say that to them.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I never get a chance to say that to them directly, but that's their conundrum.

And also the religious part, some people think it's an anti religious book. It isn't. It's about the misuse of religion.

In these power grabs. And that has happened a lot in. In history, especially in the US actually. A lot. Yeah. So it has the. It has the banner of of religion, but it's. It's not Christianity, as anybody who actually reads the New Testament would understand it.

[Kara Swisher]

I think a lot about Father Coughlin and a lot of our history.

[Margaret Atwood]

We had people like that in the 30s in Canada.

[Kara Swisher]

Just curious. When you're on the left side, which I assume you're progressive, I wouldn't even be able to describe it.

[Margaret Atwood]

I don't use the word progressive because I don't believe in inevitable progress.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, okay.

[Margaret Atwood]

And I don't believe in the right side of history because history doesn't have sides.

That are inevitable and we are not on the yellow brick road to the Emerald City of Oz. Sorry.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. Which, of course, was. It was a tale, a populist tale about monetary policy. People don't. And the Emerald City, I think, was dc.

[Margaret Atwood]

No, we certainly. Certainly don't understand that. But the Emerald City of Oz, by the way, when we get there, is a totalitarian dictatorship. But never mind. But never mind. It's a benevolent one.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, the new movie kind of spells that out pretty clearly. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You have not seen Wicked.

[Margaret Atwood]

I haven't seen it. No, no, no, no, it's okay. So I should go and see it.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, both of them.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yes. Why should I?

[Kara Swisher]

Because the singing is great.

[Margaret Atwood]

The thing that. Oh, I thought you were going to say because it has a profound political mess.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, too. That does too.

[Margaret Atwood]

But it's not. It's actually.

[Kara Swisher]

It doesn't hit you over the head with it. But the singing is fantastic. How about that?

[Margaret Atwood]

The singing is amazing. All right.

[Kara Swisher]

I believe they're very gifted. And it's a story about. Speaking of, you know, Cat's Eyes, about a relation between two women and. Or girls. And then women later, you talk about that. But it's about a relationship between two women is what it's about.

[Margaret Atwood]

Right. You know, each with a different outfit.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, absolutely. But they're the same. You see.

[Margaret Atwood]

You see?

[Kara Swisher]

It's a mindful.

[Margaret Atwood]

How are they?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, well.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hick.

[Podcast Announcer]

Well, there you go.

[Kara Swisher]

I think you should say.

[Margaret Atwood]

There you go.

[Kara Swisher]

You would laugh your ass off is what I would say. Anyway, I want to end by returning to your memoir and talking about you. Toward the end of the book, you mention in passing you've been doing some Swedish death cleaning lately. This is a practice for people who don't know where you get rid of a lot of your belongings so your children don't have to deal with them, which I think is a very kind thing to do. It made me wonder if this memoir is also part of that process for you, and if so, what do you feel like you've gained from the experience of. Of writing it?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I had a lot of fun. Does that count as gained?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, absolutely. It's lightening your load. Right?

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So I don't get too profound about my deep inner self. You may have noticed that I appreciate.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm the same way, but go ahead.

I'm a tom stopper girl. You leave everything behind on the journey, but go ahead. He just died.

[Podcast Announcer]

Rip.

[Margaret Atwood]

What have I gained?

What have I gained? I don't know. I don't think in terms of that. Gaining things for me. I think more in terms of.

Have I done the best that I could by the book?

No, that's what you want as a writer. That's what you want to be concentrating on is your relationship with the book. The book then has a relationship with readers which you can't control and can't anticipate. It's completely out of your control. So you do the best you can with the book. You have a very intense relationship with it while you're writing it. And then you have a very intense relationship with the three editors, one from each of the English markets, the States, Canada, the uk, all of whom have different views about what you should put in.

And then when it's done, it's out.

[Kara Swisher]

There, it's out, it's gone.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So what you have gained is the experience of writing. And I suppose you could say that.

[Kara Swisher]

Then in your real life, what have you Swedish death cleaned recently?

[Margaret Atwood]

What have I. Swedish death cleaned. It's a verb now, is it?

[Kara Swisher]

I just made it one.

[Margaret Atwood]

All right. Thank you.

Mostly they're paper objects, so if you don't want somebody doing your thesis on this, throw it out.

[Kara Swisher]

So out it goes. I like the idea of just destroying it.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. Goodbye, it. No one need know. Yeah. So I'm getting around to. I always put my novel papers in my. My. I hate to say, okay, my writing stuff, I put it into the Fisher Library at the University of Toronto. So why do I do that? It would just pile up, would it not? And they will take care of it. And if you need to retrieve something, they can lay their finger on it, like, right away.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And 100 years from now, some lady will be pawing through it.

[Margaret Atwood]

Maybe, but I might be pawing through it myself for some peculiar reason for going forward.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Margaret Atwood]

So I, you know, finding things in my own house.

[Kara Swisher]

Is that first poem in there?

[Margaret Atwood]

Not yet, but it will be.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, good. Oh, you're not Destroying it.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Good for you. So you're still writing a lot and you're still traveling. You were recently in the Arctic circle for a two week trip. You're getting 10,000 steps a day. Your follow up to the Handmaid's Tale and the Testaments is being turned into another series. I know you hate being asked what's next? So I'll ask instead. What's. What is inspiring you right now and what are you watching or reading? And obviously not wicked, but go ahead.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I'm paying pretty close attention to the American political scene because of course you know the old saying.

Washington cat is a cold Ottawa snazzus. So I'm. And I'm also watching the Canadian political scene, which is pretty interesting to us right now.

So. Yeah, I mean it's. Get the popcorn. You don't know from one day to the next what's going to happen. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Life is more interesting than fiction right now in a weird way.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, it's also more terrifying. Yeah. So that I'm looking at the situation in Europe as much as I can. And who's going to benefit from all of these shenanigans? Well, I think it will be China.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, agreed.

[Margaret Atwood]

I think they're playing the long game. I think they're being pretty smart.

And anybody who thinks that you can make a deal with Russia to hand over Ukrainian hoo ha to anybody in the west as dreaming, you gotta punch.

[Kara Swisher]

Them in the nose until they're dreaming.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, because they're in hawk up to their eyebrows with China.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Margaret Atwood]

So the person who's gonna get that stuff, it's China. Should Russia get its hands on it?

[Podcast Announcer]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

One time I was writing about a tech billionaire and he said, when are you gonna stop hitting me? And I said, when you stay down. So that's how I feel about Russia.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So the other question people ask me is, what about AI? Is it going to take over the world? And I say, you have a major energy problem. Unless you can solve that.

You'Re just going to run out of electricity. And then they go nuclear fusion. And I go, it hasn't happened yet.

[Kara Swisher]

Not yet. But they are reviving the nuclear reactor at Three Mile Island. I don't know if Microsoft bought it.

[Margaret Atwood]

Essentially they need a source of energy because otherwise all the lights are going to go off in every city in America.

[Kara Swisher]

That makes you feel warm and fuzzy. Let's revive Three Mile Island.

[Margaret Atwood]

Ye. And also.

The idea that everybody in the world is going to be plugged into some kind of AI. And become walking zombies. There just are not enough resources to have that happen.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't want an A.I. margaret Atwood.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, people have tried.

[Kara Swisher]

I've seen it.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yes, they were rubbishing at it so far, but they might improve it.

[Kara Swisher]

They will. All right, my last question is about something not dead. Not AI, not whatever is a longtime birder. I want you to explain why you are. And are there any species you're still hoping to add to your life list?

[Margaret Atwood]

I don't have a life list.

[Kara Swisher]

We don't?

[Margaret Atwood]

No. We made a point of not having life lists.

[Kara Swisher]

Explain why you're a birder and what a life list is for people.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, okay. I grew up with birding because my family just knew all that. By the way, nature will kill us before we kill it.

[Kara Swisher]

100%. Jeff Vandermeer. I think about him a lot.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, well, you know, microbes will survive, right? Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Along with cockroaches.

[Margaret Atwood]

And cockroaches. Yeah. My dad used to say, and this is in the 50s, it'll all be cockroaches and grass. And Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. Yeah, thanks, dad.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what he said at Thanksgiving.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, well, this was dinner table conversation. Like, how many. How many fruit flies multiplying unchecked would cause the earth to be covered to a depth of two miles with fruit flies? Why do you need to know that? Nevermind.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, now you do. Now you do. But we've gotten off the course. Why are you a birder? It's because. Since you were a kid.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay. So I grew up with it. My parents were early environmentalists, so back in the 50s, my dad was a systems biologist. This eats that eats, this eats that.

So I just grew up with it. It's my outlook on life. So Graham got into it in an activist way and we did for some years. I think it was about 10 years. We worked with Bird Life International, which does very important work internationally because, of course, birds, a lot of birds migrate. They're not limited to one country, so you have to deal with all of these countries.

We worked as the honorary presidents of the Rare Bird Club, which means we helped raise money.

And that's on the macro level. On the micro level, we set up an organization on Pelee island, which is in the middle of Lake Erie, is the most southerly part of Canada, and is on a migration flyway that goes from the Ohio shore, funnels up across Lake Erie, and spreads out into the boreal forest where these birds breed.

So we are migration data monitoring. Among the other things that we do and we are right now converting in 1928, large liquor store on Pelee Island. You get one guess as to why there was a large liquor store on pele island in 1928.

[Kara Swisher]

Because people need to drink when you're sitting on Pelee island in 1920.

[Margaret Atwood]

No prohibition. Oh. How much rum running was going on across Lake Erie? Quite a lot. A lot.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Margaret Atwood]

So where was the depot? Well, there was certainly one on Peleus.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

So. Yes, and we got hold of this building because our previous building, where we put our bird banders was sinking into swamp and there were snakes in the bathroom. And we're converting it right now.

[Kara Swisher]

That's amazing. So do you still bird even if you don't have a life list? Is there a bird you want to see?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I've never seen an ostrich in the wild, and I'm unlikely to see one. Why? Because I'm getting a bit too old to go to ostrich land.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, you seem like you have a lot of kick in you. I don't know.

[Margaret Atwood]

I think so.

[Kara Swisher]

Ostrich. Why an ostrich?

[Margaret Atwood]

They're big. I can see them.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, you don't have to be like, where does the bird. That's a fair point.

[Margaret Atwood]

I'm going to share this with you because you're obviously not ready for it. Your vision may decline a little bit as you get older.

[Kara Swisher]

My vision's been terrible since I've been four years old, so I'm good.

[Margaret Atwood]

It's going to get worse.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't imagine it would get worse. I'm almost nearly blind, but I get it.

[Podcast Announcer]

I get it.

[Kara Swisher]

I get the. That counteracted. But you are not Margaret Atwood. I'm sorry to tell you, you're still kicking. I really love this book. I thought it was joyful, which is really a nice thing. And I recommend it to a lot of people. And they're like, isn't Margaret Atwood depressing? I'm like, no, she is not.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, thank you. I'm glad you're not. Well, so many other things are so much more depressing than me right now that I come across as actually quite bouncy.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you're bouncy. That's how I think of you. Anyway, I really appreciate it. What a delightful interview. The memoir is called Book of Lives. Margaret Atwood, thank you so much for your time.

[Margaret Atwood]

And thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro, Russell, Kateri Yoko, Michelle Eloy, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Voxic Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Katherine Barner. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick.

[Podcast Announcer]

Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

[Kara Swisher]

If you're already following the show, you're an honorary Canadian. If not, you're on Margaret's shit list. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.