Brené Brown on the State of Leadership in America Today

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Brené Brown on the State of Leadership in America Today”

Podcast: On with Kara Swisher
Host: Kara Swisher (Vox Media)
Guest: Dr. Brené Brown (Research Professor, Author, Podcast Host)
Air Date: October 9, 2025

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Overview

In this engaging conversation, Kara Swisher sits down with Dr. Brené Brown—renowned for her research on vulnerability, courage, shame, and leadership—to discuss the crisis of leadership in America and beyond. At a time of political polarization, rapid AI advancement, and shifting social norms, they dive into Brown’s new book, Strong Ground, and what authentic, courageous leadership truly requires today. Their discussion is laced with personal candor, humor, and critical reflection on everything from “power over” dynamics to tech CEOs, societal fear, and the complicated realities of leading with empathy and vulnerability in an unstable world.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The State of Leadership Today: Power and Fear

Timestamps: 04:41 - 09:26

• Power Over vs. Power With:
  Brown invokes Mary Parker Follett’s ideas of “power over” (zero-sum, scarcity-driven control) versus “power with/to/within” (generative, collaborative forms). She argues the current global political zeitgeist favors “power over”—maintained through fear and periodic acts of cruelty to remind followers of what’s at stake (06:31).
  • Brown: “In order to maintain power over, you have to engage in pretty consistent bouts of cruelty to remind people what’s at stake.” (06:31)
• Why Are We Vulnerable Now?
  Uncertainty, instability, loneliness, and technological change make people more susceptible to “power over”—it’s comforting in chaos (07:22–08:29).
• Nuance and Paradox:
  The human brain struggles with nuance, especially when under duress; many just want simple answers or an enemy to blame (08:53–09:26).
  • Swisher: “When we’re in fear … you’re like, fuck the paradox, right?” (09:06)

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2. Strong Ground: Vulnerability as Leadership

Timestamps: 10:10 - 14:37

• Personal Foundation:
  The book’s thesis is that leaders must firm up their personal foundation before transforming their organizations, staying true to core values amid chaos.
• Vulnerability as Source Code for Courage:
  Brown defines vulnerability as “uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure,” the essential precondition for courage (12:00). She shares stories from military and sports settings to demonstrate that all acts of courage require vulnerability.
  • Brown (quoting a soldier): “There is no example of courage that doesn’t require vulnerability.” (12:49)
  • Swisher: “If you think you’re being brave... and there’s no uncertainty and no risk and no exposure, you’re not being brave.” (13:02)
• Backsliding on Vulnerability:
  Due to complexity and rapid technological change (esp. AI), leaders are backsliding—opting for safety and certainty rather than courageous, vulnerable leadership (13:54).

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3. Leadership and the “Soccer Metaphor”: Developing New Skillsets

Timestamps: 14:40 - 16:58

• The Soccer Ball Analogy:
  Many executives, faced with AI and other changes, act like five-year-olds playing soccer—kicking the ball wherever, rather than “settling” it and making strategic plays.
  • Brown: “Leaders today [need] anticipatory awareness, situational awareness, temporal awareness, self-awareness, strategic thinking, systems thinking…” (15:32)
  • “It will require massive relearning and unlearning.”
• Holding Competing Ideas:
  Leaders rarely practice paradoxical thinking or hold space for discomfort; they default to action or avoidance.

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4. Fear, The “Above/Below the Line” Model, and Armor

Timestamps: 17:11 - 21:26; 30:33 - 32:34

• Above/Below the Line:
  Leaders need self-awareness to recognize when they’re acting out of fear (“below the line”), versus when they’re managing fear productively (“above the line”).
  • Brown: “Above the Line in fear: You know you’re in fear … but you’re driving. When you’re under the line … fear’s driving. You’re not riding shotgun—you’re hog tied in the trunk.” (18:35)
  • Drama Triangle:
    • Below the line: Hero (“I’ll do it myself”), Victim (“No one gets how hard this is for me”), Villain (“I don’t care if everyone hates me, this is what we’re doing”).
    • Above the line: Coaching, Co-creating, Productively Challenging.
• Armor vs. Fear:
  The true barrier to courageous leadership isn’t fear itself, but the armor people put on to avoid it—micromanaging, perfectionism, over-decisiveness, ignoring problems (30:51–32:34).

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5. Paradox, Systems Thinking, and Self-Awareness

Timestamps: 26:48 - 29:57

• Embracing Paradox:
  The ability to hold two conflicting things (e.g., “A knife is both a tool and a weapon”) is rare but critical—tapping out into simplicity leads to blame/shame cycles (26:48).
• Systems Thinking’s Decline:
  Leaders today struggle to see complex systems and instead build impermeable boundaries, self-referencing their own greatness until the system atrophies (29:46).
  • Brown: “When boundaries become impermeable … systems become self-referencing … the step after self-referencing becomes atrophy.” (30:11)

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6. Gender, Power, and Command-and-Control

Timestamps: 36:31 - 41:45

• The “Mansplaining” Question (Bobbi Brown, 36:31):
  Many boardrooms still minimize female (and other) voices via coded language like “executive presence.” However, Brown is optimistic about a new generation of leaders—across race and gender—who value productive challenge, co-creation, and representation.
  • Brown: “I do see that the best leaders among us … want to be surrounded by different ideas and different people who challenge … those are the best of our leaders.” (38:01)
• Return of “White Male Power Over”:
  Brown warns against a nostalgic return to dominance models (“command and control,” “white male power over”)—these are easier but ultimately harmful to growth and innovation (39:41).
  • Brown: “White male power over is not good for growth, revenue, impact, or innovation.” (40:01)
• Masculinity & Empathy:
  Modern leadership, especially in tech, sometimes denigrates “feminine-coded” traits (vulnerability, empathy). Brown distinguishes between genuine cognitive empathy (vital to democracy) and performative or “affective” empathy, which can lead to burnout (41:44–43:36).
  • Brown: “Empathy is the source code for democracy.” (42:48)
  • On performative masculinity: “It just feels really performative to me. … I’m not convinced they believe it or know what they’re saying.” (44:01)

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7. Leadership and the AI Frenzy

Timestamps: 50:36 - 56:37

• Danger of Tech-Only Mindset:
  AI is being adopted in a panic, without proportional investment in people and alignment with business strategies.
  • Brown: “People have no sense of agency because leaders … are not … aligning AI adoption with actual business strategy and human investment.” (51:25)
• AI “Extracts” the Human:
  Brown describes feeling “hollowed out” after intensive AI use, echoing Kate Crawford’s description of AI as an “extraction technology” (55:54).
  • Brown: “There are three times in my life where I was so disoriented … I did about 60 days of heavy AI use … I felt hollowed out.” (55:21)

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8. Shame, Humiliation, and the Politics of Dehumanization

Timestamps: 58:54 - 62:25

• Leadership by Humiliation:
  Trump (and to a lesser extent, the left on social media) weaponize shame and humiliation, which research shows to be profoundly toxic and inciting of violence (58:54–61:14).
  • Brown: “We always thought humiliation was less dangerous than shame … until studies on humiliation and violence—school shooters, violent criminals—showed its real danger.” (59:36)
• Dehumanization for Power:
  Leaders seek to exclude opponents from the “circle of moral inclusion,” making it easier to justify cruelty or violence (61:20–62:25).

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9. What Makes a Good Leader—and Why It (Still) Matters

Timestamps: 63:30 - 67:58

• What We Need:
  Brown craves leaders with “the courage to put policies into effect that they must themselves follow,” grounded in accountability, honesty, intellect, and virtue (63:30).
  • Brown: “Politicians … are creating laws and policies in a very careless way because they have no intention of following them themselves.” (63:36)
• The Case for Goodness in Leadership:
  Brown insists that most people, including leaders, want to be good and decency pays off—if success is properly defined (66:13–66:21).
  • Brown: “If you define success as meeting a metric … but also being a good human being, I don’t think the style of leadership we’re seeing … is going to do that.” (66:21)
• Hope for the Future:
  Despite the “Empire Strikes Back” mood, Brown expresses a fundamental hope that “courage wins in the end.” (67:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “In order to maintain power over, you have to engage in pretty consistent bouts of cruelty to remind people what’s at stake.” — Brené Brown, (06:31)
• “There is no example of courage that doesn’t require vulnerability.” — Special Forces soldier, quoted by Brown, (12:49)
• “If you think you’re being brave … and there’s no uncertainty and no risk and no exposure, you’re not being brave.” — Kara Swisher, (13:02)
• “When you’re under the line … fear’s driving. You’re not riding shotgun—you’re hog tied in the trunk.” — Brené Brown, (18:35)
• “White male power over is not good for growth, revenue, impact, or innovation.” — Brené Brown, (40:01)
• “Empathy is the source code for democracy.” — Brené Brown, (42:48)
• “I did about 60 days of heavy AI use … I felt hollowed out.” — Brené Brown, (55:21)
• “If you define success as meeting a metric … but also being a good human being, I don’t think the style of leadership we’re seeing … is going to do that.” — Brené Brown, (66:21)
• “Courage wins in the end.” — Brené Brown, (67:46)

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Major Segments & Timestamps

• 04:41 — Power Over vs. Power With in Leadership
• 12:00 — Courage and Vulnerability: Foundational Links
• 14:40 — Soccer Metaphor for Leadership in the AI Era
• 17:11 — Above/Below the Line: Fear and Decision-Making
• 26:48 — Paradox, Binary Thinking, and Systems View
• 36:31 — Bobbi Brown’s Question: Gender Dynamics in Leadership
• 41:44 — Tech, Masculinity, and Pitfalls of “Anti-Empathy”
• 50:36 — The AI Gold Rush: Leadership Failures and Lessons
• 58:54 — Shame, Humiliation, and Political Leadership
• 63:30 — The Need for Accountability and Virtue in Leaders
• 66:13 — Why Being Decent Still Matters

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Closing Thoughts

Brené Brown and Kara Swisher deliver a timely, incisive exploration of modern leadership, illuminating the pitfalls of fearful, domination-based power and the transformative potential of courage, vulnerability, and paradoxical thinking. Brown is hopeful that despite a societal “Empire Strikes Back” moment, “courage wins in the end” for those willing to persist.

For leaders, aspiring leaders, and anyone grappling with today’s tumultuous climate, this episode offers a toolkit of self-awareness, critical theory, and grounded optimism.

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Summary by [Your Name or Tool Name]
(For all who haven’t listened—the insights here are timely, optimistic, and grounded in both hard research and lived experience.)

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

I'm fixing to change your life. Like your wife and your kids are gonna be like new Kara.

[Brene Brown]

Doubt it.

[Kara Swisher]

Hashtag Brene Brown saved us. Okay.

[Brene Brown]

Literally same person since 1962. But go ahead, try.

[Kara Swisher]

It's on.

[Brene Brown]

Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swish. My guest today is Brene Brown, a professor at the University of Houston and the University of Texas, the author of six number one New York Times bestsellers and the host of the podcast Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. Brene has a new book called Strong Ground that explores what courageous and collaborative leadership looks like during these turbulent times. Her work is grounded in rigorous academic research and work she's done Consulting Fortune 500 CEOs and leaders around the world. And I'm excited to talk to her because I just love Brene Brown. We met many years ago. She was a fan of Pivot and she contacted me and she. We've done several interviews. She's interviewed me and I just think she's such a fresh thinker about a lot of things we disagree on a lot of things, including being vulnerable. She thinks I am. I disagree with her vehemently. But before we get into our interview, on with Kara, Swisher is nominated for a Signal Award in the News and Politics category. Today is the last day to vote, so go to vote.signalaward.com and help us win. I'm also doing a live Pivot tour with my co host, Scott Galloway. The live tour runs November 8th through the 14th and it hits Toronto, Boston, New York, D.C. chicago, San Francisco and LA. Alright, let's get to the interview. Our expert question comes from the other bb Bobby Brown, so stick around. Support for this show comes from smartsheet. Your team is innovative. Your team is ready to achieve the impossible. Innovative teams use Smartsheet to defy expectations, spur growth, and make the impossible possible. Smartsheet is the work management platform that allows teams to automate workflows and seamlessly adapt as their work evolves. Whether you're managing projects or scaling operations, Smartsheet gives you the tools to cut through chaos and reach your team's full potential. With smartsheet, the extraordinary is just another day at work. Smartsheet Work with flow see how Smartsheet can transform the way you work at smartsheet.com that's smartsheet.com.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Brene Brown]

I'm sorry, we've got very little time left.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Kara Swisher]

It is on.

[Brene Brown]

Brene, thanks for coming on. On.

[Kara Swisher]

Thanks for having me on. On. Anytime that I have the opportunity to get vulnerable with you, I'm in.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, God. You need to stop with the vulnerables.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm tough.

[Brene Brown]

I'm resilient.

[Kara Swisher]

Have you ever watched yourself talk about your children?

[Brene Brown]

I know it's true. I'm vulnerable about my children. We're going to talk about Strong Ground, which is a book about leadership, which comes at a perfect time, actually, because what a leader is, is really changed. And even if they're leading, they may not be leaders, et cetera. It's chaotic. Social media has upended how we communicate. AI is threatening to upend how we work. And President Trump is reshaping both the presidency and the country in ways that can be very difficult to undo. You could argue that we're in a leadership crisis and Trump is leading America down a treacherous path. And the country's most powerful CEOs line up to flatter him, presumably so that he doesn't regulate their products. It happens every day. It just happened the other day with Google. In terms of payoffs, it happens with pretty much everyone. But talk about your assessment of the CEO state of American leadership right now, and you can go global if you want to.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. I think when I think about leadership today, the first word that comes to my mind is power. And kind of Mary Parker Follett's work. She was an early mother of leadership and organizational development work, and she talked about different types of power and how power on its own is fairly neutral. But the use of power kind of falls into different categories. Power over, power with and to and within. And I think politically around the world right now, what we're seeing is power over. And power over operates from the belief that power is finite, like pizza. So if I give you a slice, I only have seven left. Power with and power to work from the idea that power is infinite and grows when shared. I think this is. I've written about this for probably 15 years. These types of power. What I never really fully understood until right now was one of the tenets of power over is that keeping people afraid is very difficult because neurobiologically we're not hardwired to stay in fear. So when you make us afraid, our nervous system reacts. We make terrible choices from fear, but then we settle in and we either hyper normalize or we kind of get complacent. So this is the part that has been shocking to me to watch reality completely mirror theory, which is in order to maintain power over, you have to engage in pretty consistent bouts of cruelty to remind people what's at stake.

[Brene Brown]

Watch out, Daddy is watching. As Saturday Night Live said this week, Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, God, that was. It was so good. And I gotta say, I'm such a bad bunny fan that, like, I'm already practicing my Spanish for the Super Bowl. Yeah. So I think again, and this doesn't have to just be on a political stage, even in organization, if you wanna maintain the power over the team you're leading, occasionally you have to demonstrate a deep capacity for cruelty.

[Brene Brown]

If you want that format, if you.

[Kara Swisher]

Want to maintain that format of power. So I think it's the coward's path because it requires very little discipline, very little accountability, and very little courage.

[Brene Brown]

So listen, this is not a new thing. This has gone on since the beginning of time. So why is it sort of more powerful now? I guess why is largely because of Trump. Correct? Because that's how he practices scarcity. Not. Or maybe not.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think so. I think, you know, I'm big. I'm avid listener of your podcast and your podcast with Scott. And sometimes I find myself just violently agreeing. And sometimes I want to come through my headphones and be like, I don't think so. I think we're susceptible to power over right now, uniquely, because we're in uncertainty and pain. And so I think when you have a citizenry who's lonely, economically unstable.

[Brene Brown]

And.

[Kara Swisher]

Riddled with uncertainty because of technology and social media, I could never get into the chicken egg argument. I'd Be curious. What do you think? Do you think driving power over. No. No, I don't actually think it comes first. I think what comes first is geopolitical instability, uncertainty, social media, AI and income inequality. Right.

[Brene Brown]

I think it's always attractive. I think a strong man is always attractive, even if you didn't have those things. And when you're in a vulnerable position, it's more attractive because it has answers to very complex questions. You know what I mean? I think it's just easier if someone tells you Bill Clinton said, when people are insecure, they would rather have strong and wrong than weak and Right. Right. That's better.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And here's what's really interesting. We're not wired in our DNA and in our brains to handle nuance and paradox. Even though intellectually we know it's right. We know the ability to hold two competing ideas at one time and straddle that tension until something clearer emerges is the right path. Or when we're in fear, worn down, can't pay our rent, have a kid who's, you know, struggling with addiction, opioid addiction, you're like, fuck the paradox, right?

[Brene Brown]

Let them take over.

[Kara Swisher]

Just. Just tell me the next thing and give me.

[Brene Brown]

Or I don't want to think about it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Or give me an enemy to blame for my pain, preferably someone who doesn't look like me. Right, Right.

[Brene Brown]

Which is classic. So your book is about leadership, though. It tells leaders to slow down and do the work to ensure their personal foundation is strong. And only then they can transform their organizations by having a courage and clarity to break down old systems that don't work while remaining true to their core values. Talk about how you think about where executives are right now, if they're in the leadership positions in corporations or any organization, political or otherwise.

[Kara Swisher]

I think what's helpful for me is I'm surrounded by great leaders. I work with great leaders in organizations all over the world right now. And I see people who are showing up, despite what the zeitgeist says is popular, in terms of leadership and doing the next right thing every day, even when it's tough. And I think that's so hard right now because I'm gonna ask you a question. This is always my favorite part when we talk. When I turn it on you, how do I balance the paradox of being a tech optimist and feeling completely hateful about what's happening right now with tech leaders, social media, I mean, I really think this stuff is the devil. How do I straddle that?

[Brene Brown]

Well, let me Use a different technology, a knife. You can really like a knife. It cuts an apple really great. It does all kinds of things that'll help you throughout your life as a tool. And you can also say, I hate those fuckers holding that knife, shoving it into my ribs and killing me and cutting off my head, and da, da. I think the issue is that the people who are in control of it without any ability for you to control it, have no responsibility and are the first to take a dive from a leadership perspective when things get going. And they use excuses like shareholder value, et cetera, because they don't have any core values of their own. I mean, that's. That's the thing. But let's talk about some of these key leadership concepts that you identify in Strongground. The first is vulnerability. You spent your career researching it. You call it a source code for courage because the word sounds touchy feel it can cause people, especially men's eyes, to glaze over, and mine, too. So explain what you mean by vulnerability and why it's so fundamental for your understanding of leadership.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, vulnerability has a really. We have millions of pieces of data at this point, and the definition holds. Vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we're in uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure, which is every day when we wake up, we're in uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And I had to spend a lot of time convincing people about the relationship between courage and vulnerability until a singular day when I was at Fort Bragg working with Special Forces troops, and I asked the soldiers a simple question. Give me an example of courage from your life. One example that you either did yourself or you witnessed. One example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. And this heavy silence fell over the room, and people started putting their heads down, and then hands came up. And then finally, one soldier actually stood up and said, there is no example of courage that doesn't require vulnerability. Three tours, right?

[Brene Brown]

But they didn't want to use that word.

[Kara Swisher]

And then a week later, I was with Pete Carroll and the Seahawks. I asked the team the same question. Give me an example of courage that doesn't require vulnerability. They huddled up, they came back, and they were like, not on the field or off the field. If you want to be brave, you're going to have to be vulnerable. So, look, I'm not advocating for taking pleasure in vulnerability or seeking vulnerability. What I'm saying is that if you think you're being brave in your life or your. And there's no uncertainty and no risk and no exposure, you're not being brave if you know how it's going to turn out. That's not courage.

[Brene Brown]

No. And it doesn't require courage. Because you know the outcome. Correct? I mean, you know the outcome. You also don't take a riskier risk.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

If you're not. If you're not, you tend to play it safe. That tends to be. When you're like that, when you're playing it safe, you don't get the rewards, the risk reward profile. Presumably, as a business leader.

[Kara Swisher]

As a business leader, and what I see right now is that not just as a catchphrase or the leadership theme of the moment, we're backsliding on vulnerability. We're backsliding on courage. Because of the level of complexity and uncertainty, this tech super cycle has everyone panicked. I mean, we're seeing from MIT, Sloan and some other researchers that 90% of early investments made in the Q4 of 2023, first couple quarters of 20, 90% of the ROI has been negative on AI investments in companies. Why? It's very simple because people are not settling the ball. Have any of your kids played soccer? Like at 5?

[Brene Brown]

Yes, I was a soccer coach. Renee.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, great. Walk me through this metaphor. Let's go.

[Brene Brown]

It was like herding cats, but go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

It was so fun, though. I would look for Ellen. I couldn't find her, and she'd be sitting crisscross applesauce, making a daisy chain on the field next to where we were playing. It was so great. But here's the leadership metaphor for right now. Out with AI encourage. It sounds a lot like this because I work predominantly with C suites and then their level of direct report leaders. Cara, get me an AI strategy. I want it on my desk next week. Okay. Brene, what do you want it to do? I don't give a shit what it does. Just get me one. You know, that's. So when five year olds are playing soccer, the ball comes in at head height, right? The kid receiving the ball puts their foot up to head height and tries to kick the ball. A good soccer player, a skilled soccer player, takes the ball into the chest, lets the ball hit the ground, puts their foot on the ball to maintain possession, settles the ball, looks down the pitch, understands what play they're running, and then kicks the ball to where the striker is going to be, not where the striker is. So if you take that set of skill sets that I just talked about and you translate them to leadership skills, here's what we're talking about. Leaders today. Anticipatory awareness, situational Awareness, temporal awareness, self awareness, strategic thinking, systems thinking. These are the skill sets. This is the collection of skill sets that emerge from our data as necessary today. It is no joke. It will require massive relearning and unlearning. And so what do we do when we're faced with not having the answers?

[Brene Brown]

We just kick the ball.

[Kara Swisher]

We just kick the ball.

[Brene Brown]

We just.

[Kara Swisher]

Wherever, wherever.

[Brene Brown]

Right, right. And so like a bunch of five year olds. That's right. Let's just. Give me the ball, give me the.

[Kara Swisher]

Ball, give me the ball.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, and so I don't know where it's going.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I mean, and just think about that. Like if you coach soccer, what age do you think a player would have to be to take a high ball into the chest, settle it, put their foot on it and look down the field and guess where it's going?

[Brene Brown]

Over seven, Right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah. They're going to have to have a lot of new cognitive skills.

[Brene Brown]

Right?

[Kara Swisher]

We don't have them today. Kara in the C suite. Very few leaders. Paradoxical thinking that we started our conversation with the ability to hold competing ideas and not tap out because it's uncomfortable.

[Brene Brown]

Well, a lot of that is fear obviously, because there's a fearfulness not just from Trump, but fearfulness of missing out the whole all this. It's an inescapable emotion for all leaders. But according to your book, the goal shouldn't be avoiding fear, even overcoming it. It's just the self awareness to recognize it when they're afraid and make rational decisions. Because then if not fear hijacks judgment and makes decisions emotional without even realizing. Get me an AI strategy. And you call this the above below the line pract. Talk about how that works and how anger intersects with fear.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm fixing to change your life. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like your wife and your kids are going to be like, new Kara.

[Brene Brown]

Doubt it.

[Kara Swisher]

Hashtag Brene Brown saved us.

[Brene Brown]

Literally same person since 1962, but go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, try. So I get on the phone with my coach after a particularly shitty meeting and I was like, oh my God, Courtney, I was such an asshole. I'm like, I was so out of my integrity that I don't like circle back and apologizing from my first book is not going to cut it. Like I am embarrassed by my behavior. And she said, it sounds like you were really under the line. And I said, what does it mean? And she said, the line is fear and we're in fear all the time, every day. And she said, when you're above the Line in fear. You know, you're in fear. You can name, you're in fear, but you're driving. You're driving right. You're making good decisions.

[Brene Brown]

You're okay.

[Kara Swisher]

You're okay when you're under the line. She didn't say this because very Texan, but I think of it as fear's driving. You're not riding shotgun. You're hog tied in the trunk.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yeah, like Texan.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, fifth generation. What. What can I do? Since 1965.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

So I said, how do you know when you're under the line? And she said, listen to your language and look for one of three characters that emerges from you. The hero, the victim, and the villain. And I said, what does that sound like? And she said, well, a lot of times what I hear you say when you're under the line is, fuck it, I'll do it myself. The hero. Or I'll say, no one gets how hard this is on me. Like, my name's out there, the victim, or I don't care if everybody hates me. This is what we're gonna do. Oh, the villain. And she said, when you're above the line. And this actually tracks to the drama triangle. When you're above the line, there are three different kind of Personas. Not Personas, but three different actions you take on coaching, co creating, and challenging productively.

[Brene Brown]

All right, so what do those sound like? Cause right now I'm the villain just all the time, but go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, no.

[Brene Brown]

I don't.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know, but I. When I see. Like I see dead people, I see squishy, Kara. Like, I see mom.

[Brene Brown]

Okay, all right. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

All right.

[Brene Brown]

But what is the three of the positive above the line? What do they sound like?

[Kara Swisher]

Can we figure this out together? Co creation or coaching? You know what, Kara, you worked your butt off on this. It's slightly off. I don't think I set you up for success. Let's talk about how we get there.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, okay.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, co creating, coaching, and then challenging. I'm not tracking, but you seem sure. Can you help me get there? So productive, challenging.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, I see.

[Kara Swisher]

And so now it's really interesting because when Steve and I will get into a crunchy place, especially about our kids because I can get panicked really easy. I don't think you do this. You're not fearful about your kids as much, right?

[Brene Brown]

I'm not, no.

[Kara Swisher]

But I'm always like, oh, my God, is that dangerous? What's going to happen?

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yeah, that's my wife.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's usually one. Yeah. And so he'll say, well, I can be anxious. I just don't know that I have enough information or that I'm taking from the information we have enough to panic. And I'll say, am I under the line? He's like, maybe, you know, and so now I bet five times a day I'll be in a meeting with my leadership team and someone will say, you know what, I'm under the line.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, okay.

[Kara Swisher]

And then we'll just take a 10 minute break and come back and I'll say, thanks, Kara, for calling the timeout. Do you want to talk about how you got under the line? And the last time I did that, that the person said, yeah, I can tell you how I got under the line.

[Brene Brown]

Is there any plus in leadership to say, fuck it, I'll do it myself? Like that's a hero and a villain. Villainous hero, essentially. Right?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it is. It's like, it's, it's like the best, it's like the best Voltimore that we have. Yeah, I'll do it myself.

[Brene Brown]

What if you're actually better at doing it yourself?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I think that's great. As long as you want a tiny little impact in a tiny little company where you can do all the tiny little shit your tiny little self.

[Brene Brown]

Right, Got it. Okay. That's why I'm asking for a leader, because a lot of leaders do have exhibit that. Right? That's a very classic. Both of those things are classic.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, you know who they're classic for? What they're classic for? Founders.

[Brene Brown]

Founders, right. Yeah, founders. That's right. Right, you're correct.

[Kara Swisher]

I am going to check your email. I am going to pick the fonts. I, you know, this is my company, right? Yeah, they are.

[Brene Brown]

That's exactly right. And the victim one is very classic. Now for tech people, they always feel that they are being victimized as leaders and therefore they react to in that way.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince. Sweater weather is coming. And sweater weather isn't just about sweaters. It's all about the layers in your fall outfits that keep you warm and comfy as the days grow colder. From sweaters to premium denim to luxe outerwear, Quint says they have everything you need to stay cozy and comfy. This autumn, Quince partners directly with top tier factories and cuts out the middlemen so they can deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. I've tried a lot of Quint's projects and I really like my comfy cozy puffer vest and all kinds of things that are warm. A little sweatshirts. I like all the soft stuff and the soft pants and the soft shirts and everything else to keep me warm in cold weather. I actually wear it in the winter too because it feels so comfortable. I don't like being cold and so Quint's is both comfy and cozy, and they're easily priced compared to lots of others. Find your fall staples at quince go to quince.comcara for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Canadians it's very cold up there, so order some comfy clothes. That's Q-U-I-N-C.com Kara to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Cara support for this show comes from Smartsheet did you know there is one human experience more universal than death and taxes? What do you think it is? Take a guess. Okay, I'll tell you. It's creativity. I know you're probably thinking, yeah, right, I'm not that creative. Or maybe you're thinking, I am creative, but I have just so much trouble tapping into my creativity. And in that, my friend, you are not alone. Perhaps because there is actually one thing more universally human than death and taxes and creativity. It is distraction. That's where smartsheet comes in. Smartsheet is the work management platform that helps clear clutter, break down barriers, and streamline workflows to allow your creativity to, you know, flow. Its innovative platform lets your team find its rhythm no matter the obstacles. When roadblocks emerge, smartsheet empowers teams to chart a new course, one where innovation thrives. We all have the power to tap into creative flow. We just need some help clearing away distractions. And Smartsheet knows exactly how to do that. Smartsheet Work with flow. Learn [e-mail] support for On With Kara Swisher comes from Groons. Your body is your home. Of course, that's not your actual home, but it's a good metaphor because like the home you live in, you can tell when something is off. Diet and exercise are, of course, a great way to realign yourself. But what if you wanted something more? Something that can improve your skin, gut, health and immunity? It might be time to try grunes. Grunes are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a daily pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic. It's all those things and then some at a fraction of the price. In Gruins daily snack Pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, 6 grams of prebiotic fiber, and more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient dense and whole foods, all of which help you out in different ways. And now Grunes has launched a limited edition Gruny Smith apple flavor for fall. You get the same full body benefits you know and love, but this time they taste like you're walking through an apple orchard. Stackable and packable and a flavor that tastes just like sweet, tart green apple candy. On top of it all, Groons are vegan and free of nuts, dairy and gluten. Grab your limited edition Gruny Smith Apple Groons, available only through October. Stock up because they will sell out. Get up to 52% off. Use the code. Tara. You zero in on what you call the tenacity of paradox and you write that quote. Paradoxes embrace ambiguity, expose our intolerance for uncertainty, push our boundaries, and if we hang on long enough, often force us to deny the comfort of our ideologies for a deeper wisdom that is more honest reflection of the human experience and the human spirit. Talk about this in a practical sense. How can leaders embrace paradoxical thinking when they're constantly faced with the binary, the zero sum, this or this. Budget priorities, spending money, giving in to Trump. You know, everything feels binary in a paradoxical world, right?

[Kara Swisher]

So what's interesting is I'm going to use your metaphor to talk about this. So the knife that you talked about, I need this knife. It's a tool for my life. It can keep me alive. I can cut food, I can do, you know, I need this knife. This knife is getting shoved into my stomach by people. So if you can hold on to a knife as a tool, it's being misused. A knife is a tool. It's being misused. What people, how we tap out is we say, oh, it's good and bad. That's the tap out. Hold on longer. Hold on longer. Oh, it's a tool. It's being used to hurt people. We've got a knife holder issue, right?

[Brene Brown]

Exactly.

[Kara Swisher]

But you have to hold on to that paradox long enough to know it's like fire. You can keep yourself warm or burn down the barn.

[Brene Brown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

And so I think I would say this with the most senior leaders that I'm around today, all over the world, if there were two, maybe three things that I say that they have that a lot of leaders are struggling with right now, the ability to hold paradox until Something new emerges. Systems thinking, which I don't know how systems thinking fell out of favor. But now, given the complexity inside and outside of organizations, if you can't see things in terms of systems that are connected in inescapable ways, you're gonna fail.

[Brene Brown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

And then the third one, which I'd be interested in your take on this. Self awareness.

[Brene Brown]

Well, yes, that's, that is, yeah, that was ominous. I often, I often. Just recently I was with some tech people and they started saying things. I went huh? And they're like, what? I go, are you even listening to yourself? Do you have any amount of self awareness, like victim, victim, victim mentality? And I was like, you don't look victim to me. You could have me disappeared in five minutes if you really, you know, put your mind to it. And it was, it was really interesting. The second one though, I think is systems thinking. You're right. They don't see beyond the bigger picture or that things can be confusing in wait. The sort of lack of ability to wait for things. And I think that's hard. I mean I actually think I do this very well when people are like, what's going to happen? I'm like, I don't know yet. I got to think about it. Like it's very complex. But when you think about that, why are there fewer people doing that? What has happened into our brains that. Because a lot of the famous business leaders that was part of it is seeing a network, seeing a. Seeing the bigger picture. I guess that's sort of the old version of it.

[Kara Swisher]

Here's how I think this is going to play out. And this is why I'm optimistic for those of us who want something different and want more power with, to and within.

[Brene Brown]

Systems.

[Kara Swisher]

In order to survive, whether they're cellular systems or organizational systems, team systems have to have permeable boundaries. And they need permeable boundaries for feedback to flow in and out.

[Brene Brown]

Sure, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

When boundaries become impermeable, which you're seeing across the tech world, especially right now, systems become self referencing. Like we just are by ourselves.

[Brene Brown]

Right. Or with enablers that agree, violently agree with us. Right, right. Which is tech people to a T. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

And so impermeable systems that are self referencing. Yeah. Are we great? I think we are great. Well, I think we're great too. Those impermeable boundaries, the step after self referencing becomes atrophy.

[Brene Brown]

Right. But you call it armor. You said the various defense mechanism that leaders use to avoid doing that. So according to your research, it's the main impediment to strong and effective leadership. People who are hardwired to self protect. It's very difficult to let go of armor. And you've talked to a lot of leaders. How do you get them to put down their armor?

[Kara Swisher]

It's really interesting. I hypothesized early when we started this research on leadership 17, 18 years ago, that the biggest barrier to courageous leadership was fear. I was wrong. And in fact, some of the most courageous leaders that we interviewed, political leaders, NGO leaders, corporate leaders, when I said, here's my hypothesis, they said, listen, if you're going to put together a list of daring leaders who are not afraid, don't put me on it because I wake up afraid. I go to bed afraid. I'm afraid every day. And I was like, but what I learned is it's not fear that gets in the way of being brave, it's armor. When we're afraid, what armor do we put on to self protect? And so the way we help, you know, over the last six years, we've taken 165,000 leaders through Dare to lead 45 countries. The quickest way to have people understand who they are when they're afraid or feeling vulnerable is to have them identify their armor. And it's a really painful exercise. So for me, I micromanage. I get perfectionistic and I get completely overly decisive. So if we're in a meeting, I'll be like. And I get fearful. I don't get analysis paralysis. I say, shut it down, move her to this team. Don't do this. Reinvest here. Then I'm like, shit, I think I'm afraid. Don't do any of those things. And my team's always like, we don't write anything down when you're like this, you know, like, we don't, don't worry, we're not moving on anything when you go into the space because we know you're under the line. So I think identifying the armor, if you're really ballsy, you can ask someone that loves you. Who am I when I'm afraid?

[Brene Brown]

Ah, interesting. Interesting.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

I ignore things. Oh, you do pretend they aren't happening.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, yeah. I just.

[Brene Brown]

And then they change. Like you outweigh them. I do. I'm like, huh? Like someone says something like, I don't know, I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Huh?

[Brene Brown]

Like that kind of thing.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I like it.

[Brene Brown]

It's different.

[Kara Swisher]

It's a skill set.

[Brene Brown]

It works. It actually is a very good skill set. And with the fear thing, it's interesting because people do Put up armor either. Armor. You can armor fear with fear. Actually, I was talking to my daughter and she was scared of something that wasn't scary. And I said, it's okay to be scary. And some things are scary. You should be fine with it. You should be fine with it. And then I taught her my famous line, which is, the dark is afraid of me. When she was scared of the dark, I'm like the darkest. And she laughed and it was fine. But one of the things that I think is difficult, that we sort of. We bleach out of kids is fear of the dark. Fear of the. It's okay to feel those. Like, you're not. Most parents go, don't be scared. Like, don't be like. That's a thing I've said as a parent many times. Don't be scared of that. Or this week, my daughter was scared of. She loves all the music from K Pop Demon Hunters, loves it, but can't watch the movie that scares her. So it's a really interesting problem because she loves it so much but can't watch it. Cause she's so scared, which is somewhat.

[Kara Swisher]

But I think you just said something that's really important. I'm always cautious to draw lines between parenting and leadership because I don't want to infantilize adults. But some things just hold, which is, it's okay to be afraid. Just don't be an asshole to other people when you're in fear, especially if you have power over those people. If you have some kind of influence over their jobs or their pay or their job security. Like, somebody asked me an interview. I think it was Dan Harris, I can't remember, but they said, if you wanted to go back to yourself in your early 20s, what would you say to yourself? I think what I would say to myself is it's okay to be afraid. Watch it, because you're going to become scary when you're scared.

[Brene Brown]

Ah, that's a good line.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, scary. And I can become scary when I'm scared. But I grew up in a family where you could always be angry. Anger was always okay. You could never be afraid, and you could never be in pain. Have your feelings hurt.

[Brene Brown]

Well, anger is scared, right?

[Kara Swisher]

When anger is scared and anger is having your feelings hurt. But the expression of that was only. The only thing allowed for that is you can be pissed off. And so when I ask a group of leaders, how many of you find it easier to be pissed off than hurt? Yes, every hand goes up, right?

[Brene Brown]

Especially men. They don't want to.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, Men and women.

[Brene Brown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Men and women. And can't.

[Brene Brown]

And men feel uncomfortable.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Because for women, I cannot fulfill every shitty stereotype you have about me that jeopardizes my ambition and my career. Right.

[Brene Brown]

I've heard from so many women leaders, especially political ones. I can't do that. Men can.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Brene Brown]

And sometimes. But sometimes I'm like, come on, just do it anyway. And they're like, we're gonna lose no matter what we do. Interestingly, I'm interviewing Kamala Harris this week live, and I think I'm thinking about that a lot because she had to live in so many different paradigms. Right. She was too tough. She was too tough. If she wasn't tough enough, she was not tough enough. You know what I mean? It's just like all of them. Did she say enough? Did she push enough? If she pushed. It's just an interesting question.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh. I mean, it's the classic double bind. And then you've got a woman, but you've got a black woman and a black Asian woman. So then you've got the double binds, and the vices become so tight on both sides that the squeeze is death. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, right. It's true. It's really hard. So every episode, we get an expert to send a guest a question.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, shit.

[Brene Brown]

Let's hear yours. It's a good one. Don't worry. Hi, Brene Brown.

[Kara Swisher]

It's Bobbi Brown here.

[Brene Brown]

You and I are both on book tours now, and I feel like we've been following each other. I hope we get to meet someday soon. My expert question for you is this. I'm a founder and entrepreneur who sold.

[Kara Swisher]

My first namesake brand to a very big corporation.

[Brene Brown]

I was often in a boardroom with a lot of men in suits who had a ton of opinions on what products we should launch to be competitive in the beauty market, and mostly how women feel.

[Kara Swisher]

There was even one executive who told me, no one wants to take beauty.

[Brene Brown]

Advice from a soccer mom. The problem was, I was a soccer mom, and I just didn't agree with him. Let me tell you, it was interesting times. Your new book is based on the work you've done in Fortune 500 companies and the conversations you're having with CEOs.

[Kara Swisher]

About how leadership styles need to change as we navigate through rapid and destructive change.

[Brene Brown]

I'm guessing you've been in a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

Of corporate boardrooms with these same guys. And my question is, are you seeing any real change? Because I'm still seeing a lot of mansplaining.

[Brene Brown]

How are you hoping to shift this dynamic. And what kind of changes are you seeing that makes you feel optimistic about.

[Kara Swisher]

The leaders of the future?

[Brene Brown]

Thanks, Brene. And I'll see you on the book tour circuit. I wanted to get a Brown.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, but wait. My whole face. Brought to you by Jones Road.

[Brene Brown]

Me too.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm like a huge fan.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, she was talking about Estee.

[Brene Brown]

Lauder there, where they started to take over her brand. Her name, actually.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Bobby Brown, of course. And then that no compete was like, oh, my God. I was so excited when Jones Road came out. Cause I was like, thank God. A woman at the helm of Stuff that Women wear. Right.

[Brene Brown]

Which is what her original company was.

[Kara Swisher]

And I mean, raise your hand if you've been a soccer mom.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, me too. Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So I'm still in those rooms on occasion. You know, it's interesting that. Cause in strong ground, I really take down the idea of executive presence and say, you know, I don't know. That is really covert, often covert language for diminishing the talents of women, people of color, introverts, shy people, people who process longer. I am hopeful because I do see that the best leaders among us, across gender, across race, understand that the key to innovation and impact revenue growth is productive challenge on teams. And those leaders, despite their discomfort, want to be surrounded by different ideas and different people who challenge and represent the market segments that they serve in different ways. Those are the best of our leaders. Has this new administration given a green light to returning to old ways of working?

[Brene Brown]

The command and control.

[Kara Swisher]

The command and control and the. And look, if you do anything with this clip, make sure that this is hyphenated. Don't take these words apart from each other. White male power over. Not white male power with. There are tons of great white men leaders that are saying power with productive challenge, inclusivity. But a very specific model of power, which is white male. Power over is not good for growth, revenue, impact, or innovation.

[Brene Brown]

But it's easier.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's definitely easier. That's the definition of privilege.

[Brene Brown]

But you said you felt optimistic. She was asking, what are you seeing? Give me an example that makes you feel optimistic about future leaders.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm seeing leaders across multiple different industries across the world having the option to return to a way of leading that's in the zeitgeist right now. And saying, I'm not doing that.

[Brene Brown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Not for moral reasons, because it's bad business. Right.

[Brene Brown]

Even if it might be personally satisfying.

[Kara Swisher]

Even if it's easier for me.

[Brene Brown]

But interestingly enough, speaking of this masculine Energy. The values you write about, like vulnerability and empathy are often coded as feminine in our society. But a lot of say tech CEOs right now invested in performative masculinity. Same thing with Pete Hegseth's speech to the military. It was all about looks and manliness and which means only one thing to me is that it's very small on Pete Hegseth. But Mark Zuckerberg telling Joe Rogan that he wants more masculine energy in corporate America is the obvious example. It goes beyond that. Elon Musk talked about so called civilizational suicidal empathy. The idea that excessive compassion undermines societal cohesion, values and security. From US point of view, the west has become too accepting and empathetic and it's a weakness. Talk about, you know, a lot of it right now comes from tech.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I'm not going to pretend to understand the smallness from which this comes. You know, what I can say is empathy is a very nuanced thing. And I think for me there are two explanations why you'd be anti empathy. One, if you want to hurt people and you don't want any collective pushback, I think empathy would be a problem. Two, I think there's two different kinds of empathy as we think about it in social science. There's cognitive empathy and affective empathy. You call me and you say, shit, I'm in a hard place, here's what's going on. And I listen and I connect with what you're saying. I reflect it back to you. You feel seen and heard and believed. And I, not for one second, I don't take on your emotion. I just let you know you're not alone. I see you, I believe you and I understand what it is. Right. That is actually the frickin source code for democracy. Right? Right.

[Brene Brown]

And that is a classic psychiatrist thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? Well, it's just, it's cognitive empathy. Everybody can do it to everybody. You say to your daughter, I love this music and I really want to watch it, but I'm scared. And you say enjoy the music and it's okay to be scared of it and when you're ready, you can watch it, but enjoy the music. There's nothing wrong. It's probably exactly what you said, except.

[Brene Brown]

Now I'm hearing it every single day, five or seven times a day. But go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the mom tax.

[Brene Brown]

If I hear takedown one more time.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh yeah, no, that's the mom tax.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

If you called me and you said you were having a hard time and then I'm like, tell me all about it, and then I start feeling it with you, and then you're sad. I'm sad. That's affective empathy, and it's not productive. It causes burnout. It actually ends up causing compassion fatigue, but two different kinds of.

[Brene Brown]

And then you get mad about talking to that person.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, Right. Right. Now you're enmeshed. That's not empathy. That's enmeshment. I don't know where you end and I begin. And now we're just both in the shithole. So that's not good. But I think the masculine energy, it just feels. It just feels really performative to me. I don't even know. I'm not 100% convinced that they believe it or know what they're saying and they're not just trying to pass the fidelity test. Like, I don't. I don't know, but I can well explain.

[Brene Brown]

When you watched. You watched the P. Texas thing, Only part of it.

[Kara Swisher]

I actually.

[Brene Brown]

That's a leadership moment. Right?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't. This is really a painful. I have not talked about this. Like, this is a really painful thing for me. I think over the past 15 years, I've done a ton of work with the military and all pro bono, just as part of what I feel like is my. Just something I care about.

[Brene Brown]

Your duty. It's your duty. Patriotic duty.

[Kara Swisher]

It's just. I mean, I think. And I have a lot of conversations with who I believe are amazing military leaders.

[Brene Brown]

There's many.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Oh, there's so many. I probably can't even engage in a conversation where I joke about it because I find it to be very heartbreaking.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Although they weren't buying it either, Brene.

[Kara Swisher]

You can see it.

[Brene Brown]

No.

[Kara Swisher]

No, they weren't. And look, there are great military leaders, and there are dangerous military leaders. There are great corporate leaders and dangerous corporate leaders. There are great NGO leaders and dangerous. Great faith leaders. Dangerous faith leaders, absolutely. The industry in which you work does not define your goodness. Who you are every day in a room when you have more power over other people, that defines who you are. And so I can't joke about that because I find it heartbreaking. And because I've done so much work with the military, I find it as a citizen to be frightening.

[Brene Brown]

It is. And at the same time, it was a leadership fail. Like, I don't think it worked. I think it was a performative clown. Like, it didn't. I don't. I don't think it sunk in. I would say. I think most people across the Spectrum had the same reaction, including the Trump people, by the way. I don't think anyone thought that worked.

[Kara Swisher]

You gotta remember, if you just want the easiest source code for understanding leadership and evaluating leadership, there's a very simple question. When you look at a leader, is it clear to you that they know their job is to serve the people they lead and not be served by them?

[Brene Brown]

Yep. We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara swisher comes from LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn jobs when you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you couldn't manage all in one place. LinkedIn's new feature allows you to write job description and quickly get your job in front of the right people. With deep candidate insights. You can either post your job for free or pay to promote in order to receive three times more qualified applicants. Let's face it, at the end of the day, the most important thing for your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. That's why LinkedIn claims that 72% of small business owners who use LinkedIn find high quality candidates. So find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Kara that's LinkedIn.com Kara to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply.

[Kara Swisher]

The world is changing faster than ever. Now with the Economist Insider, a new premium video offering, we're giving you unprecedented access to the debates shaping our world.

[Brene Brown]

I have sat around that table at NATO. There is an incoming missile attack.

[Kara Swisher]

Now could you answer the question?

[Brene Brown]

I'm sorry, we've got very little time left.

[Kara Swisher]

With a few surprises along the way. I can't promise we'll have a cocktail every time, but we'll try. So don't just be an economist reading get on the inside track with the Economist Insider. Go to economist.com to join the conversation.

[Brene Brown]

Support for this show comes from Deleteme. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Deleteme does all the hard work of wiping your and your family's personal information from data broker websites. You can sign up and provide Deleteme with exactly what information you want deleted and their export experts take it from there. And Delete Me is always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the Internet. I have used Deleteme many times and it's a really easy experience. The dashboard is easy to navigate. You can see what people are doing with all your information, how they're bringing it together. See why Wirecutter named Deleteme their top pick for data removal services. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and use the promo code CARA at checkout. The only way to get 20 off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and enter the code Cara at checkout. That is K A R A. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Kara code Kara1 of the things you mentioned, humanity, human spirit, human experience throughout the book and you emphasize the importance of taking that human centered approach to leadership. At the same time, lots of CEOs, CTOs in every industry are feeling the need or pressure to incorporate AI into their organizations, which is something you also talked about. Talk about the rapid adoption of AI in the workplace and how leaders can deploy it without sacrificing the human connection you say is foundational. Let me just read what you wrote about AI. I think we're witnessing one of the most dangerous, unresolved time paradoxes in modern history when it comes to AI. And it's basically framed like this in the United States. We can't slow down and worry about ethics and safety. We need to beat China. The risks and rewards of putting untested technology into the market have never been more serious. And we're not seeing the level of daring leadership. We need to address these paradoxes related to AI. So talk about what daring leadership would look like and about what's happening right now in this space because it does remove human and connection in a lot of ways.

[Kara Swisher]

I have a lot of thoughts on AI. I have a lot of thoughts from the research and I have a lot of. I had a really hard personal experience with it. I'll talk about the research first, which is, you know, I think about Linda Hill from Harvard who has studied digital transformation for decades. My favorite quote by her is the most difficult part of Digital transformation is never the technology. It's always the human beings who are using the technology. And so one of the things that scares me right now is the platform attitude. Don't worry about our relevance. What makes us human will keep us relevant. We are terrible at what makes us human. We are terrible right now at discernment, empathy, connection, courage, because it's, you know, Welchian leadership taught us 30 years ago.

[Brene Brown]

This is Jack Welch.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. What makes us human is a liability to growth, revenue and performance.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, he's one of the most damaging leaders.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And so we kind of bought that. That even though there have never been data ever to support it.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, sounds good.

[Kara Swisher]

It sounds great. So right now we find ourselves in a situation where we're not good at what uniquely is us. So we need to skill up and relearn and unlearn on that. I think the idea that we're not using AI, it's happening to us in the workforce, is killing agency. People have no sense of agency because leaders are not, you know. Show me your AI investment and I'm going to ask two questions. Tell me exactly how this is aligned with your business strategy and show me the line item where the human investment on using AI is proportional to the tech investment.

[Brene Brown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

It doesn't exist right now. We'll get there, but we won't get there until there's wasted billions of dollars and traumatized workforce.

[Brene Brown]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

For me personally, we did something really interesting. I'll be curious what you think about this. For this research in Strong Ground, we ran a parallel literature review process. We did an entire literature review on AI across four different platforms. Then we did a traditional literature review with the research team that was in the stacks doing all the old school stuff. Then we hired a group of college interns. We call them the Hallucination Hunters. And their job was to take apart the lit review done by AI. 70% of the citations were hallucinations in the AI lit review.

[Brene Brown]

That's not a surprise.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, wait, it would say, like, 2024, Swisher comma K and Brown comma B. Harvard Business Review, Volume 24, AI Analysis on Manufacturing Industry. I mean, it was so legit. But that did not exist. Yeah, that did not exist. It would take a quote and attribute it to a scholar, and that scholar ended up, like, being Reddit user at I like my bike.

[Brene Brown]

Ah, wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's very sycophantic.

[Brene Brown]

Yes, very. That's the problem. I mean, it's not dependable. Certain things. It is certain things that are like, what Is this. What does this tick? What does this leave? What is this? Typically, they get it right.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, and I use it for that.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The utility stuff works. The stuff that requires analysis or any kind of reporting, as you would say, is. Is problematic. So do you see the rush to CEOs doing this as a big problem of leadership? Is it just kick it down the road or this will save me money or anything else?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I think it's more simple than that. I think it's like, hey, wait, look over there. Johnny's got a new toy, right? And my board is breathing down my neck because I don't have that new toy. And there's no thoughtful adoption tied inextricably to business strategy and leveling up the people who are going to use it in effective ways. And I'll tell you the other thing that's really weird. Have you. Like, I use it, I love it, but I use it for, like, weird things. Like, probably more utility things. There are three times in my life where I was so disoriented and kind of this weird, depressed anxiety feeling that I had a hard time getting out of bed. One was 28 years ago. When I got sober, I thought sobriety was going to bring massive clarity to me, but it really jacked me up for like, two or three weeks before I understood, wow. There's no clarity because I don't know who I am. And that's what I'm doing this for. Two, I took a social media sabbatical a couple years ago for a year. It changed my life. It was so disorienting. It was great. I did about 60 days of heavy AI use. I felt like shit. I felt hollowed out. And Kate Crawford and I did a talk on AI at Aspen Ideas Festival.

[Brene Brown]

Amazing.

[Kara Swisher]

I love her. Do you like her work?

[Brene Brown]

Yes, I do. I love Kate.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And I think I learned about her, actually, from you. And I think I heard about Atlas of AI from you, and I read it. And when she and I did this talk, I told her I was like, I felt hollowed out, like, empty on the inside. And it lingered past my usage of the instrument. And she said, it's interesting that you say hollowed out, because AI is an extraction technology. We extract minerals from the earth, we extract water, we extract people's data. It's an extraction technology. So there's something poetic about the fact that when you use it for long periods of time, you feel hollowed out. You feel hollowed out.

[Brene Brown]

Well, one of the things that I was just noting was years Ago, the first technologies of the Internet were push technology. Push stuff at you.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

And it was too much for the bandwidth at the time. And so then it became a pull technology. As you asked for something, it gave it to you. Right Now, AI is a push technology. God, that push pushes, think about that. There was a company, look it up, called Pointcast, and it was the first hot company, one of the first. And it just collapsed because the bandwidth was too much of them pushing. Or think about Clockwork Orange. They're flooding you with information. It's just as bad. A destination is better than a flood really. In many ways, it's an information flood. So let me get back to actually leadership. You said earlier, as part of your job, you end up in the room with a lot of these CEOs. And I know you do talk to a lot of tech CEOs. I'm just using them because they're the top CEOs these days. Obviously I do too. Were you surprised by the kowtowing, given these are the most powerful people and richest people on Earth? At the White House dinner, the leading luminaries took turns going around groveling before him as the cameras rolled. You've worked with these, these leaders. And again, I'm only using them because they're the current top leaders with the top companies. Did you expect this kind of groveling behavior? Because you can be arrogant all you want, but it was what they become is more groveling in a weird way. What is the North Star for CEOs? If there's North Star is shareholder value, everything else comes in second.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's a temporal decision. I think it's a time based decision.

[Brene Brown]

Okay. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Even if your North Star is shareholder value and you ultimately see your sole responsibility being stock price value, market cap, I'm wondering if, and I don't know the answer, if these folks are taking a long enough view. Even if that's your North Star, I don't know the answer to it.

[Brene Brown]

I've had one CEO say, actually it's the worst thing you can do for shareholder value over the long term. That was the only one who said it to me, which was really interesting. And others are like, I have to do it kind of thing, but it has to do with humiliation too.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Brene Brown]

And you wrote a lot about humiliation in your book. And according to Dr. Linda Harding, whose research you include in the book, humiliation may be the most toxic social dynamic of our age. You write about shame and humiliation are not effective tools, especially around social justice and cruelty, obviously. And humiliation are part of Trump's leadership style. But some on the left have weaponized shame on social medias.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh my God. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

So talk about, I mean it's more irritating than what Trump is doing, right? His is very quite serious, I think. But it's the same, it's the same coin. Like this idea of humiliation as a tool in American politics, in companies, it can infect the way leaders are.

[Kara Swisher]

Presumably this is one of the biggest change, unlearn, relearn moments in my career because for a long time we've always taught the four self conscious affects. Shame, guilt, humiliation and embarrassment. Shame I am bad. Guilt, I did something bad. Shame's a focus on self, guilt is a focus on behavior. Super important difference the outcomes for shame based people. You get an F back on your test. You say to yourself, God, I'm so stupid. That's shame, guilt. You get an F back on your test and you say, man, going out last night and partying was really stupid. I should have stayed home and studied. Then you've got humiliation and embarrassment. And we always thought humiliation was less dangerous than shame. Because let's say somebody says your leader at work in front of your colleague says, God, Bernard, you're such an idiot, right? If my self talk is I'm such an idiot, I'm such an idiot, that's shame. But if my self talk is, screw her, I don't deserve that, that's humiliation. Someone attacked who I am, but it was undeserved. We always thought that was less dangerous than shame, right? Until like probably the last five or six years when we've done these in depth studies on humiliation, where there are studies of school shooters, violent criminals, humiliation's role in violence. And so when we start using humiliation and shame as tools, it's fundamentally dehumanizing. And I don't care whether it's from the left or the right, it's dangerous, right?

[Brene Brown]

As a leadership tool. And obviously political violence has resulted and all kinds of violence, all kinds of violence.

[Kara Swisher]

And that's, you know, when you look at dehumanization and you think about, you know, dehumanization researchers talk about moral inclusion. That very close to us is this idea of here are all these people that are morally included in what I think it means to be human and to hurt people within our circle of moral inclusion is actually, we're not neurobiologically wired for it. To kill, rape, assault, attack. People whom we believe are morally included in humanity for us is fundamentally dangerous for us and for them. So what happens? And this happens at the hands of very expert leaders is we think I want to hurt them or we want others to hurt them. So how can we push them beyond moral inclusion to be outside of the circle of people we see as human and deserve be to? So if you're morally excluded, it's easier. It's easier.

[Brene Brown]

That's classic. In a recent interview, you referred to the person you hate the most as someone who's in politics. Let's assume it's not Pete Hagseth that you're referring to Trump, but he's someone who seems to reject most, if not all, of the findings in your book. He leads by appealing to negative emotions, primarily feel. His power is very clearly coercive control, to borrow a phrase from management theory pioneer Mary Parker Follett. In Strong Ground, you quote from her 1924 book where she he wrote, coercive power is the curse of the universe, coactive power, the enrichment and advancement of every human soul. So talk about that. And what effect does his style of leadership have on us, on our broader culture? And then alternatively, Democrats are effectively leaderless right now. Whatever you think of Minority Leader Chuck Schumer or House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, they're not inspiring the masses. So what would be the key characteristics of a successful Democratic presidential nominee or a Republican one who's going to counter Trump? But that's a more difficult situation because they seem to like his style of leadership at this moment.

[Kara Swisher]

I think what I'm looking for, and I can't speak for this citizenry, but I think what would be very appealing to me, and I think the majority of people, is someone is a leader who has the courage to put policies into effect that they have to follow. Right now, we have built in this country, politicians on both sides are creating laws and policies in a very careless way because they have no intention of following them themselves. There's one group of rules for the citizenry and one group of rules for the politicians. And as long as that remains the truth, I don't think either side is going to be successful in making this country what it can be. I mean, I believe in the democratic ideal. I believe in the experiment of democracy. I believe in a multicultural democracy. I'm not sure that that is the goal on the far right or the far left. I'm not sure that either side on the extremes, a standard deviation out, is interested in democracy as an idea deal. I really don't think that's true. And so to me, I don't think character can be underestimated. I don't think truth telling and intellect. I mean, if you go back to. I was able to interview Ken Burns for the new 12 part special on the American Revolution. And I was so struck by this idea from the founding fathers and mothers because as it turns out, there was a collective group of mothers right behind those fathers. I was so struck by the idea that the core pillars of democracy are virtue and education. I think the citizenry deserves honest, strong, disciplined leaders, accountable leaders. And I think if you put that in front of us, we're going to to support it wildly.

[Brene Brown]

So at this most basic level, this is my last question. You've written a book about being a good and decent person. That's what you just described. You know, it says leaders are grounded, open, honest, empathetic. Instead of acting like defensive jerks who try to scare people into submission, they'll get better results. And yet, as we discussed, there are countless examples of leaders in business politics who aren't honest and decent, but are still tremendously successful. You're a researcher, so give us the data. Why is being good and decently are actually more effective or successful than the alternative?

[Kara Swisher]

I've been thinking about this a lot, especially given the climate that we're in globally. This is going to sound so naive.

[Brene Brown]

That's okay.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it depends on how you define success. And I don't really believe in my heart that the majority of people want to hurt other people, want to leave the world worse than they found it. I think people care about their legacy. I think people care. I mean, you look at Trump who's like, you know, just really crazy about the Nobel Peace Prize, like, I think people want to be good. So if you define success as meeting a metric that could be shareholder value, but also being a good human being to other human beings, I don't think the style of leadership we're seeing right now in this administration is going to do that. So I think by the metric that really matters to the majority of people in the world, if you think that you have to choose between being a wholehearted leader and driving growth and revenue and impact, if you think that's the choice, you are missing skills. Because it's not. It's not. It's a false dichotomy.

[Brene Brown]

Right. And do you imagine they will return? That there will be a backlash against that, which is. You're pushing here a different kind of leader?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I think courage wins in the end.

[Brene Brown]

Vulnerable courage again.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, there's no courage without vulnerability, so I'm for it.

[Brene Brown]

Brene, thank you very much.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you, Carrie.

[Brene Brown]

This is a fascinating book. It's well worth reading. I kept reading and going, I wish people would behave like this. And then they never fail to disappoint.

[Kara Swisher]

But there's so many people who are so I think that's true. That's the hope.

[Brene Brown]

100%. But it feels like we're in the Empire Strikes Back.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, we are definitely in the Empire Strikes Back, but we know how that saga ends.

[Brene Brown]

Badly for everybody. Stick with Star Trek. Everything is good. Everything is good in Star Trek.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it is bad. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro, Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Michelle Eloy, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester and Najib Amini. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are good and decent and vulnerable. If you not, the K Pop Demon Hunter soundtrack will take you down. You'll understand once you listen to it. Go wherever you listen to podcast, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit Follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

[Kara Swisher]

The world is changing faster than ever now with the Economist Insider, a new premium video offering. We're giving you unprecedented access to the debates shaping our world.

[Brene Brown]

I have sat around that table at NATO. There is an incoming missile attack.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, could you answer the question?

[Brene Brown]

I'm sorry, we've got very little time left.

[Kara Swisher]

With a few surprises along the way. I can't promise we'll have a cocktail every time, but we'll try. So don't just be an Economist reader. Get on the inside. Sidetrack with the Economist Insider. Go to economist.com to join the conversation.

[Brene Brown]

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