Podcast Summary: “Brené Brown on the State of Leadership in America Today”

Podcast: On with Kara Swisher
Host: Kara Swisher (Vox Media)
Guest: Dr. Brené Brown (Research Professor, Author, Podcast Host)
Air Date: October 9, 2025

Overview

In this engaging conversation, Kara Swisher sits down with Dr. Brené Brown—renowned for her research on vulnerability, courage, shame, and leadership—to discuss the crisis of leadership in America and beyond. At a time of political polarization, rapid AI advancement, and shifting social norms, they dive into Brown’s new book, Strong Ground, and what authentic, courageous leadership truly requires today. Their discussion is laced with personal candor, humor, and critical reflection on everything from “power over” dynamics to tech CEOs, societal fear, and the complicated realities of leading with empathy and vulnerability in an unstable world.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The State of Leadership Today: Power and Fear

Timestamps: 04:41 - 09:26

• Power Over vs. Power With:
  Brown invokes Mary Parker Follett’s ideas of “power over” (zero-sum, scarcity-driven control) versus “power with/to/within” (generative, collaborative forms). She argues the current global political zeitgeist favors “power over”—maintained through fear and periodic acts of cruelty to remind followers of what’s at stake (06:31).
  • Brown: “In order to maintain power over, you have to engage in pretty consistent bouts of cruelty to remind people what’s at stake.” (06:31)
• Why Are We Vulnerable Now?
  Uncertainty, instability, loneliness, and technological change make people more susceptible to “power over”—it’s comforting in chaos (07:22–08:29).
• Nuance and Paradox:
  The human brain struggles with nuance, especially when under duress; many just want simple answers or an enemy to blame (08:53–09:26).
  • Swisher: “When we’re in fear … you’re like, fuck the paradox, right?” (09:06)

2. Strong Ground: Vulnerability as Leadership

Timestamps: 10:10 - 14:37

• Personal Foundation:
  The book’s thesis is that leaders must firm up their personal foundation before transforming their organizations, staying true to core values amid chaos.
• Vulnerability as Source Code for Courage:
  Brown defines vulnerability as “uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure,” the essential precondition for courage (12:00). She shares stories from military and sports settings to demonstrate that all acts of courage require vulnerability.
  • Brown (quoting a soldier): “There is no example of courage that doesn’t require vulnerability.” (12:49)
  • Swisher: “If you think you’re being brave... and there’s no uncertainty and no risk and no exposure, you’re not being brave.” (13:02)
• Backsliding on Vulnerability:
  Due to complexity and rapid technological change (esp. AI), leaders are backsliding—opting for safety and certainty rather than courageous, vulnerable leadership (13:54).

3. Leadership and the “Soccer Metaphor”: Developing New Skillsets

Timestamps: 14:40 - 16:58

• The Soccer Ball Analogy:
  Many executives, faced with AI and other changes, act like five-year-olds playing soccer—kicking the ball wherever, rather than “settling” it and making strategic plays.
  • Brown: “Leaders today [need] anticipatory awareness, situational awareness, temporal awareness, self-awareness, strategic thinking, systems thinking…” (15:32)
  • “It will require massive relearning and unlearning.”
• Holding Competing Ideas:
  Leaders rarely practice paradoxical thinking or hold space for discomfort; they default to action or avoidance.

4. Fear, The “Above/Below the Line” Model, and Armor

Timestamps: 17:11 - 21:26; 30:33 - 32:34

• Above/Below the Line:
  Leaders need self-awareness to recognize when they’re acting out of fear (“below the line”), versus when they’re managing fear productively (“above the line”).
  • Brown: “Above the Line in fear: You know you’re in fear … but you’re driving. When you’re under the line … fear’s driving. You’re not riding shotgun—you’re hog tied in the trunk.” (18:35)
  • Drama Triangle:
    • Below the line: Hero (“I’ll do it myself”), Victim (“No one gets how hard this is for me”), Villain (“I don’t care if everyone hates me, this is what we’re doing”).
    • Above the line: Coaching, Co-creating, Productively Challenging.
• Armor vs. Fear:
  The true barrier to courageous leadership isn’t fear itself, but the armor people put on to avoid it—micromanaging, perfectionism, over-decisiveness, ignoring problems (30:51–32:34).

5. Paradox, Systems Thinking, and Self-Awareness

Timestamps: 26:48 - 29:57

• Embracing Paradox:
  The ability to hold two conflicting things (e.g., “A knife is both a tool and a weapon”) is rare but critical—tapping out into simplicity leads to blame/shame cycles (26:48).
• Systems Thinking’s Decline:
  Leaders today struggle to see complex systems and instead build impermeable boundaries, self-referencing their own greatness until the system atrophies (29:46).
  • Brown: “When boundaries become impermeable … systems become self-referencing … the step after self-referencing becomes atrophy.” (30:11)

6. Gender, Power, and Command-and-Control

Timestamps: 36:31 - 41:45

• The “Mansplaining” Question (Bobbi Brown, 36:31):
  Many boardrooms still minimize female (and other) voices via coded language like “executive presence.” However, Brown is optimistic about a new generation of leaders—across race and gender—who value productive challenge, co-creation, and representation.
  • Brown: “I do see that the best leaders among us … want to be surrounded by different ideas and different people who challenge … those are the best of our leaders.” (38:01)
• Return of “White Male Power Over”:
  Brown warns against a nostalgic return to dominance models (“command and control,” “white male power over”)—these are easier but ultimately harmful to growth and innovation (39:41).
  • Brown: “White male power over is not good for growth, revenue, impact, or innovation.” (40:01)
• Masculinity & Empathy:
  Modern leadership, especially in tech, sometimes denigrates “feminine-coded” traits (vulnerability, empathy). Brown distinguishes between genuine cognitive empathy (vital to democracy) and performative or “affective” empathy, which can lead to burnout (41:44–43:36).
  • Brown: “Empathy is the source code for democracy.” (42:48)
  • On performative masculinity: “It just feels really performative to me. … I’m not convinced they believe it or know what they’re saying.” (44:01)

7. Leadership and the AI Frenzy

Timestamps: 50:36 - 56:37

• Danger of Tech-Only Mindset:
  AI is being adopted in a panic, without proportional investment in people and alignment with business strategies.
  • Brown: “People have no sense of agency because leaders … are not … aligning AI adoption with actual business strategy and human investment.” (51:25)
• AI “Extracts” the Human:
  Brown describes feeling “hollowed out” after intensive AI use, echoing Kate Crawford’s description of AI as an “extraction technology” (55:54).
  • Brown: “There are three times in my life where I was so disoriented … I did about 60 days of heavy AI use … I felt hollowed out.” (55:21)

8. Shame, Humiliation, and the Politics of Dehumanization

Timestamps: 58:54 - 62:25

• Leadership by Humiliation:
  Trump (and to a lesser extent, the left on social media) weaponize shame and humiliation, which research shows to be profoundly toxic and inciting of violence (58:54–61:14).
  • Brown: “We always thought humiliation was less dangerous than shame … until studies on humiliation and violence—school shooters, violent criminals—showed its real danger.” (59:36)
• Dehumanization for Power:
  Leaders seek to exclude opponents from the “circle of moral inclusion,” making it easier to justify cruelty or violence (61:20–62:25).

9. What Makes a Good Leader—and Why It (Still) Matters

Timestamps: 63:30 - 67:58

• What We Need:
  Brown craves leaders with “the courage to put policies into effect that they must themselves follow,” grounded in accountability, honesty, intellect, and virtue (63:30).
  • Brown: “Politicians … are creating laws and policies in a very careless way because they have no intention of following them themselves.” (63:36)
• The Case for Goodness in Leadership:
  Brown insists that most people, including leaders, want to be good and decency pays off—if success is properly defined (66:13–66:21).
  • Brown: “If you define success as meeting a metric … but also being a good human being, I don’t think the style of leadership we’re seeing … is going to do that.” (66:21)
• Hope for the Future:
  Despite the “Empire Strikes Back” mood, Brown expresses a fundamental hope that “courage wins in the end.” (67:46)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “In order to maintain power over, you have to engage in pretty consistent bouts of cruelty to remind people what’s at stake.” — Brené Brown, (06:31)
• “There is no example of courage that doesn’t require vulnerability.” — Special Forces soldier, quoted by Brown, (12:49)
• “If you think you’re being brave … and there’s no uncertainty and no risk and no exposure, you’re not being brave.” — Kara Swisher, (13:02)
• “When you’re under the line … fear’s driving. You’re not riding shotgun—you’re hog tied in the trunk.” — Brené Brown, (18:35)
• “White male power over is not good for growth, revenue, impact, or innovation.” — Brené Brown, (40:01)
• “Empathy is the source code for democracy.” — Brené Brown, (42:48)
• “I did about 60 days of heavy AI use … I felt hollowed out.” — Brené Brown, (55:21)
• “If you define success as meeting a metric … but also being a good human being, I don’t think the style of leadership we’re seeing … is going to do that.” — Brené Brown, (66:21)
• “Courage wins in the end.” — Brené Brown, (67:46)

Major Segments & Timestamps

• 04:41 — Power Over vs. Power With in Leadership
• 12:00 — Courage and Vulnerability: Foundational Links
• 14:40 — Soccer Metaphor for Leadership in the AI Era
• 17:11 — Above/Below the Line: Fear and Decision-Making
• 26:48 — Paradox, Binary Thinking, and Systems View
• 36:31 — Bobbi Brown’s Question: Gender Dynamics in Leadership
• 41:44 — Tech, Masculinity, and Pitfalls of “Anti-Empathy”
• 50:36 — The AI Gold Rush: Leadership Failures and Lessons
• 58:54 — Shame, Humiliation, and Political Leadership
• 63:30 — The Need for Accountability and Virtue in Leaders
• 66:13 — Why Being Decent Still Matters

Closing Thoughts

Brené Brown and Kara Swisher deliver a timely, incisive exploration of modern leadership, illuminating the pitfalls of fearful, domination-based power and the transformative potential of courage, vulnerability, and paradoxical thinking. Brown is hopeful that despite a societal “Empire Strikes Back” moment, “courage wins in the end” for those willing to persist.

For leaders, aspiring leaders, and anyone grappling with today’s tumultuous climate, this episode offers a toolkit of self-awareness, critical theory, and grounded optimism.

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(For all who haven’t listened—the insights here are timely, optimistic, and grounded in both hard research and lived experience.)