Cartoons, Capitalism & Censorship: Alison Bechdel & Ann Telnaes on Politics in Art

Summary

Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher

Episode: Cartoons, Capitalism & Censorship – Alison Bechdel & Ann Telnaes on Politics in Art

Date: August 25, 2025
Host: Kara Swisher (Vox Media)
Guests: Alison Bechdel (cartoonist, graphic novelist) & Ann Telnaes (editorial cartoonist)

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Episode Overview

Kara Swisher hosts celebrated artists Alison Bechdel and Ann Telnaes for a deep dive into the particular power of cartoons, comics, and satirical art within political discourse. The conversation ranges from the distinct roles of graphic novels versus editorial cartoons, personal and professional choices in the age of censorship and capitalism, the evolving impact of their art, and the challenges facing creative expression—especially from political and technological pressures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Differences Between Editorial Cartooning & Graphic Novels

[04:11-06:44]

• Ann Telnaes: “Our cartoons have to have a point of view. …We are part of journalism, even though editors maybe don’t want to admit that. That is our primary role—an opinion through visuals.”
• Editorial cartoons must be pointed and opinionated, not just humorous; fundamentally, they’re part of the journalistic mission.
• Ann describes the challenge and opportunity for students and new artists, noting a preference for long-form stories among her students, reflecting contemporary reader interests.
• Alison Bechdel: Emphasizes the difference as ‘length’—single panel cartoons vs. long-form narratives. Initially produced single-panel, less overtly political cartoons, then gravitated towards stories of greater length and depth, culminating in episodic novels.

2. The Inherent Politics of Art

[06:44-07:11 & 11:33-12:29]

• Bechdel: “Just being out in those days in the early 80s was in fact pretty radical.”
• Her early comics reflected her personal life, and the act of representation itself was a form of implicit political activism. Overt politics entered organically as the cultural climate demanded it.

3. Censorship, Capitalism, and Integrity in Publishing

[07:11-11:05]

• Telnaes shares her experience resigning from The Washington Post after editorial rejection of a biting cartoon about tech moguls and Trump:
  • “I was frankly surprised when I was told I couldn't do that cartoon… So when it happened, I was taken aback and I didn't have to think too long…”
• The viral impact of editorial censorship was due to the singular power of images and the sense of a free press under threat.
• Bechdel discusses her decision to accept a lucrative publishing deal from a Murdoch-owned firm, weighing reach against values, and channeling ambivalence into her latest book:
  • “I did not struggle very long or hard. It was a lot of money… It would guarantee a bigger reach… That was my justification… And then I guess putting that little jab in is my way of trying to make myself feel better.”

4. The Portrayal of Trump: Character, Caricature, and Influence

[13:23-16:33]

• Telnaes on caricaturing Trump: “My caricatures have never really been about how the person looks… I try to show you what I think the insides of that person is more than the outsides.”
• The Trump era dramatically accelerated the news cycle for editorial cartoonists, creating relentless demand and challenge.
• Notable moments: Alison praises Ann—“You, of all the people drawing Trump, you are the one who gets him. Your drawings are brilliant.” [14:13]
• The ‘long tie’ and ‘tiny hands’ became recurring visual emblems.
• Bechdel: In Spent, Trump is more a looming presence than a visual character, akin to her treatment of Reagan in earlier works.

5. Bridging Polarization & Audience Reach

[17:31-19:54]

• The struggle between ‘preaching to the choir’ and attempting broader impact is a recurring dilemma:

  • Bechdel: “I've always just preached to the choir… But Ann, you are talking to a mass audience. And that's... that's what needs to happen.”
  • Telnaes: “Nobody on the mega side looks at my stuff unless they want to attack it.”

• Bechdel reflects on the journey from niche to mainstream—Fun Home becoming a Broadway hit—and the paradoxes of visibility and commercial success.

6. Satire’s Reach: Is South Park More Powerful Than Serious Op-Eds?

[21:51-25:12]

• Discussion about South Park’s power to shape political perception, especially among unlikely or hard-to-reach audiences.
  • Bechdel: “Who is the audience for South Park? Is it mostly young men? …Then fantastic. They need to see this.” [22:45]
  • Telnaes: “More power to them. …The only criticism I have is their Kristi Noem is not mean enough.” [23:16]
• Both agree visual satire can have greater reach and efficiency than text-heavy journalism.

7. Freedom of Speech, Book Bans, and Self-Censorship

[30:31-36:57]

• Telnaes warns about the chilling effect of silencing satirists and comedians:
  • “It’s not a big leap to go from satirists… being silenced through businesses that support them or just by people threatening them… I think eventually… we’ve seen it happen.”
• Bechdel, on Fun Home bannings:
  • “It's painful and it pisses me off. Like, my book is a memoir about my real life, and people describe it as pornographic. Like, you can't call my life pornographic.” [33:33]
• Book bans are both personally hurtful and dangerous to public culture, functioning effectively as bans on people, not just stories.
• Both emphasize that book bans are attacks on free speech and on the plurality needed for a functional democracy.

8. Social Media, Harassment, and Content Moderation

[38:51-41:57]

• Telnaes: The move from mail and email criticism to mass, misogynist online harassment—especially after her Ted Cruz cartoon at The Post.
  • Prefers not to censor, but to let bad actors reveal themselves and to let other readers weigh in:
  • “Rather than trying to shut people up… who decides what is the red line?”
• Bechdel laments the loss of earlier, friendlier Internet communities, replaced by toxic troll culture post-Gamergate.

9. Artistic Choices in the Digital Age and the Rise of AI

[49:01-52:55]

• Telnaes and Bechdel both voice concern about AI-generated art, stressing the irreplaceable value of artistic skill and authentic personal expression.
  • Bechdel: “Do not become reliant on [AI], because you'll just lose that neural capacity to make drawings once you start relying on the computer.”
  • Telnaes: “It’s lazy. It’s cheating. I always say it’s theft when you’re using AI because it’s coming from somewhere. It's coming from another artist.”

10. Process, Tools, and the Unnoticed Craft

[53:29-57:59]

• Telnaes discusses shifts from brush and ink to digital color and finally to watercolor/pencil for the freedom and speed required in Trump-era editorial work.
• Bechdel: Shifted from steel nib on paper to digital drawings midway through her newest book for deadline-driven efficiency, noting the loss of line quality but gain in speed.

11. The Role and Reach of Artists in Troubled Times

[58:13-61:39]

• Telnaes: “Where's my head? Just above water, I suppose… This one seems a little bit more urgent, obviously, because of the democracy issue.”
• Her deepest fears are cultural—attacks on museums, arts institutions, book bans, drawing comparisons to Nazi-era Germany.
• Bechdel: Reflects on the loss of rapid commentary in favor of depth, hopes to create a sequel to Spent, and to continue exploring these existential issues through art.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ann Telnaes:

  • “If there's no point of view, it's not an editorial cartoon.” [04:37]
  • “My caricatures… I try to show you what I think the insides of that person is more than the outsides.” [15:23]
  • “It’s not a big leap to go from satirists, not just cartoonists, but satirists in general… being silenced… and self-censoring. That’s where the danger is going.” [30:31]
  • “It’s lazy. It’s cheating. I always say it’s theft when you’re using AI because it’s coming from somewhere. It’s coming from another artist.” [52:52]

• Alison Bechdel:

  • “Just being out in those days in the early 80s was in fact pretty radical.” [06:46]
  • “I've always looked at how my own story intersects with larger things going on in the world.” [12:29]
  • “I feel like you captured [Trump's] monstrosity, but also his essential brokenness.” [16:15]
  • “It's painful and it pisses me off. Like, my book is a memoir about my real life, and people describe it as pornographic. Like, you can't call my life pornographic.” [33:33]
  • “Do not become reliant on [AI], because you'll just lose that neural capacity to make drawings once you start relying on the computer.” [50:24]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:06 — Introduction: Guests’ background and purpose
• 04:11 — Editorial cartooning vs. graphic novels: Defining the roles (Telnaes & Bechdel)
• 07:11 — Telnaes on Washington Post censorship and resignation, viral impact
• 11:33 — Bechdel on capitalism, the Murdoch dilemma, and decision-making
• 13:23 — Portraying Trump: Caricature, art choices, and era impact
• 17:31 — Audience and polarization: Preaching to the choir, seeking impact
• 22:45 — South Park, satire, and popular influence discussed
• 30:31 — Censorship, satire, and the threat to free speech
• 33:33 — Bechdel on book bans, personal pain, and public danger
• 38:51 — Social media, harassment, and moderation
• 49:01 — Viewer question: Art, AI, and authenticity in creative work
• 53:29 — Artistic tools: Evolving process, from ink to digital to watercolor
• 58:47 — Final reflections: How artists chronicle a democracy in peril

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Tone and Dynamics

The tone remains sincere, incisive, and lightly irreverent—characteristic of Swisher’s approach. Both guests freely oscillate between grim political realities and wry humor, finding camaraderie in their struggles and mutual admiration. They celebrate the subversive, community-building power of cartoons and art, while not shying away from the threats of censorship, technological disruption, and political backlash.

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Conclusion

A charged, insightful episode that investigates how art, humor, and personal narrative can both reflect and shape a fraught national conversation—the stakes heightened by censorship, media consolidation, and the omnipresence of AI. At its core, the episode champions the enduring necessity and impact of creative voices in times of cultural crisis.

For anyone invested in the interplay of art, politics, and free speech, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Are you in that house of yours?

[Alison Bechdel]

I am.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm so glad my children didn't break it.

[Alison Bechdel]

I found their fingerprints all over the Eames chair, though.

[Kara Swisher]

It's kind of funny. Why not? Hi, everyone From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guests today are Alison Bechtel and Anne Telnes, two artists who are chronicling our nation political chaos in completely different but equally compelling ways. Alison is a cartoonist, graphic novelist, and professor at Yale. She started publishing her comic strip Dykes to Watch out for in 1983. I've been reading it since then and then became a graphic novelist and memoirist. Her book Fun Home was adapted into a Broadway show and won five Tonys. And her latest book is Spent. Anne is a former animator turned editorial cartoonist who won two Pulitzer Prizes. She began working for the Washington Post in 2008, but after it censored her work, she quit the paper and went viral for a post explaining her reasoning. These were about tech bros, so I paid a lot of attention. She now publishes her work on Substack, where she has over 100,000 subscribers. She's the author of three books, and her latest is Trump's ABC. I'm excited to talk to him because I think I haven't actually had cartoonists, and I think today cartoonists, animators, et cetera are becoming an incredibly important part of the political conversation, of the social conversation, and they often distinguish much the way poets do, although people don't read poetry nearly enough in ways that are really important compared to reporters or any of the stuff I do on these podcasts. So I really think they're just a distilled version of some incredible thoughts and talents and ideas, and I really appreciate the impact they've had on my life. Both Ann and Alison had a huge impact on my life and my thinking and just do beautiful drawings. Our expert question comes from Hannah Rosen, a senior editor at the Atlantic and the host of Radio Atlantic. These are two really thoughtful artists whose work is capturing our zeitgeist. So stick around. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow, who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work, the work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of your business, it, hr, customer service, and more. And that means your people can focus on the work that they want to do. That's putting AI Agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get [e-mail] AI agents support for this show comes from Robinhood.

[Anne Telnaes]

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[Kara Swisher]

Broker dealer.

[Alison Bechdel]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects.

[Anne Telnaes]

Because you're not sure where to start.

[Alison Bechdel]

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[Anne Telnaes]

Clunking sound from your dryer is.

[Alison Bechdel]

With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app.

[Kara Swisher]

Download Today it is on. Alison and Anne, thanks for coming on on.

[Anne Telnaes]

Thanks for having us.

[Alison Bechdel]

I am very excited to be here.

[Anne Telnaes]

Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

You are two of my absolute favorites. So editorial cartooning and comics have a lot of obvious similarities and you're both highly political, I would say, and yet your worlds are almost completely separate. I'd love to talk about why that is. And how do you envision the role of editorial cartoonist and a graphic novelist today? Anne, you go first. As you've written, as an editorial cartoonist, my job is to hold powerful people and institutions accountable.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, I, you know, I whenever I speak about my work, I always start by explaining the difference between an editorial cartoon and other comics and cartoons. And basically the thing is that our cartoons have to have a point of view. Now, it doesn't mean that we can't be funny. There are plenty of funny editorial cartoonists. But if there's no point of view, it's not an editorial cartoon. So we are part of journalism. We are, even though editors maybe don't want to admit that. And that is our primary role is to have an opinion, but through visuals. I mean, I taught a class about editorial cartooning and I have to tell you, all those students were, of course, readers of graphic novels. And all of them did their cause. I gave them the freedom to do their final project any way they wanted. They could do a traditional one panel cartoon, they could do it animated. Cause this was an animation school. Or they could do long form. And everyone picked long form because that's what they read.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what they read. Well, speaking of which, Alison, let's hear from you about this.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah. What inspired me to start cartooning was wanting to see people who looked like me and my friends in the culture. Because I just wasn't seeing us reflected anywhere. And I began doing a single panel comics, not at all political, very much about everyday life and just silly things. I just want to say to me, the difference between what you do, Anne, and what I do is length. You know, you have to do it in one image and I can natter on for two, 300 pages to say whatever I'm getting at. And, and in those early days when I was doing single panel cartoons, I found it increasingly difficult to come up with something that was, you know, could stand on its own like that. And it was actually paradoxically much easier to write these long stories that then became a almost a sort of episodic Victorian novel over time. But yeah, I think length is key here.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think what you were doing was political?

[Alison Bechdel]

I think it was in implicitly political. Just, just being out in those days in the early 80s was in fact pretty radical. But my earliest work doesn't contain any explicit political content that crept in gradually with time. Yes, because of course I was living in Reagan's America as a 20 something young lesbian and it just became inevitable.

[Kara Swisher]

I remember feeling very invigorated by what I considered it, that. And you resigned from the Washington Post after David Shipley, the editorial page editor at the time, rejected one of your editors. It shows a group of tech titans, including the owner of the Post, Jeff Bezos, bending a knee to a statue of President Donald Trump offering bags of money. Talk a little bit about this was it? And by the way, Tim Cook just gave him a gold statue which was even more perfect in real life. Irl was it meant as a provocation to push the Post into confronting head on the limits of editorial freedom under Bezos? And we know what's happened since. You were sort of the beginning of that move.

[Anne Telnaes]

No, no, no, I didn't plan this at all. No, I, you know, I was just doing my job. I was frankly surprised when I was told I couldn't do that cartoon because you know, the way that I work is I choose the topic. I've always chosen the topic. Different editors work Differently with editorial cartoons. But I give them one rough and then usually, you know, they'll come back and say, oh, you know, can you kind of. It just, it's kind of fuzzy. Can you clear it up? Can you. That image is making me uncomfortable, which seemed to happen a lot with this editor, you know, and then. But I wouldn't go back and choose a whole different topic. So this was a surprise. Now, having said that, you know, a couple of months prior to that, we had the non endorsement happened and you know, I was part of the opinions section. So of course I got to be in on the meetings about that where everybody was quite upset, you know, with what had happened. So. But having said that, I also did a cartoon about it and they did print it took them a couple hours to figure it out, but they did do it. So it wasn't like I was expecting them to not to reject a cartoon idea. So when it happened, I was taken back, taken aback and I didn't have to think too long. But I realized that you said you.

[Kara Swisher]

Decided to quit five minutes after it was rejected.

[Anne Telnaes]

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, I mean, I thought, you know, about could I continue on? And then I thought, how could I do that? I mean, how do I know he's not going to do it again? You know, and also I have to speak to my colleagues about why I'm still there if they're rejecting, you know, what I'm trying to put out.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Anne Telnaes]

So, yeah, I mean, essentially, yeah, I basically made the decision right away.

[Alison Bechdel]

Can I just say something? I think, I mean, the excuse that David Shipley had at the time was that, oh, we've already run articles about this.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Alison Bechdel]

But implicit in that is the fact that people aren't reading the articles. Your image would have a much greater impact.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Anne Telnaes]

And that's a really good point, Alison, because that was something that I didn't think of at the time, but, you know, I've had a few months to kind of reflect on it. Is, you know, why did that create such, you know, a viral reaction? Because it went not just in the United States, it went in other countries. And I. I think it's because cartoons are images, you know, and then people, of course, have been feeling, you know, they had been feeling pressure about what was going on with the democracy in the United States and of course, the non endorsement for the Washington Post readers. But I honestly think the reason it went viral wasn't because of my particular cartoon. It was because it was a cartoon and it illustrated the fact that The Free Press was challenged and in danger. And I think that's why, by the.

[Kara Swisher]

Way, full disclosure, my wife used to work for the Washington Post and left for many of these reasons, but that was the most cockamamie excuse I've ever seen out of a person.

[Anne Telnaes]

And it was an excuse, by the way.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yeah.

[Anne Telnaes]

It wasn't an excuse because I went back and read that column that he also explained to me why. And I said, you know what? That's not a column criticizing the tech titans. It's a column warning them that Trump is going to stop. Stab him in the back.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. That's exactly right. So Alison is spent. It's a fictional memoir about a cartoonist named Alison. I wonder who it's about. She struggles with her decision to take a lucrative deal from a publisher owned by an unnamed billionaire, which is very clearly Rupert Murdoch. In real life, Murdoch owns who, by the way, I call Uncle Satan. Anytime you want to use that, it's all yours. In real life, Murdoch owns News Corp, which owns HarperCollins, which owns Mariner Book, which is your publisher.

[Alison Bechdel]

That's right. And, Carrie, you were the first person in all the interviews, reviews I've done to have mentioned that.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. Yes, no problem, no problem. But only because I won't take a contract from HarperCollins. They've offered several times. But I did work for Rupert Murdoch, let's be clear, and. And work several years, and then I quit because he's such an awful, terrible person. But talk a little bit about that.

[Alison Bechdel]

You know, to be honest, I did not struggle very long or hard. It was a lot of money that I was being offered. And also, I knew it would guarantee a bigger reach for the work. I mean, sure, I could do it at any number of small presses, but would anyone ever see it? So that was my justification. For better or for worse, that's how I made the decision. And then I guess putting that little jab in is my way of trying to make myself feel better.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Alison Bechdel]

Really.

[Kara Swisher]

It's a book about a struggle. If someone's trying to live an ethical life in a capitalist society.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Talk about why this is resonant for you.

[Alison Bechdel]

Well, I just feel like I look around at the multiple crises facing this planet, and they all boil right down to greed and money. And I wanted to, just. As a memoirist, I've always looked at how my own story intersects with larger things going on in the world. And so this was a way for me to do that, look at how my own financial life and privilege and choices, what that's been like. And just. It's a platform to talk about all this other stuff. It actually. This book started as a straightforward memoir, but then it became this crazy autofictional project about which wasn't really true to my real life at all. It was quite fun. I could make up all sorts of things like that. I would want a pygmy goat sanctuary, which I really don't.

[Kara Swisher]

You really don't? Not today, you don't. Not yet. I'm sure there's one around your neighborhood. So, Anne, Trump is a recurring character in your cartoons. He's not in everyone, but he's in a lot of them and for good reason. And spent. Trump is only mentioned explicitly twice, but his specter looms over the whole book. So I would like each of you to talk about Trump as a character. Ann first and then Alison.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yes, I do a lot of cartoons.

[Kara Swisher]

At least he's good for a cartoonist, right? He's physically interesting, presumably?

[Anne Telnaes]

Well, yeah. I mean, you know, we're all. Caricature is a big part of editorial cartooning. You can say a lot through a caricature, right? My caricatures have never really been about how the person looks. I mean, I always feel like my best caricatures are if I can portray how the person is deep down inside.

[Alison Bechdel]

Can I interject? Anne, you, of all the people drawing Trump, you are the one who gets him. Your drawings are brilliant.

[Anne Telnaes]

Because I don't like him.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, okay. Talk about how you pick the caricature, how you've decided from a drawing.

[Anne Telnaes]

Well, that's the thing is. That's the thing, and I think, you know, Alison has kind of hit on it, is I just do what I feel, you know, and I think those are the caricatures that are the best. So Trump. Yes. He's, you know, obviously always in my cartoons. He's ever present. He also changed the news cycle for editorial cartoonists. You know, prior to that, you know, you could kind of figure you're busy, especially when Congress is in session, but, you know, one big story a week, maybe. You know, during summer, we were doing stupid cartoons about reading lists on beaches because Congress was out of session and nothing was going on. When Trump got in the first time, it was 24. 7 news. And it's again, I mean, I find it incredibly difficult to keep up with everything that's going on. And I think that's a tactic or a tie.

[Kara Swisher]

It is absolutely flood the zone tactic. But talk about your caricature of Trump. What is the most important part of it.

[Alison Bechdel]

His tie gets longer and longer.

[Anne Telnaes]

That's a great. The tie is a gift to cartoonists. You know, you can do anything with that thing. You can, like. I saw somebody else use the tie as, you know, the Putin carpet that he just came in on, I've used it to try to basically hang him. You know, that kind of. You can do great stuff. You know, it's funny, my readers are the ones that always point out to me because I never notice. I'm changing every time. Time they're like, okay, he's starting to look like a big mouth bass now. And I'm like, okay, I can go with that. Or, you know, they say he's a pig. And I'm like, well, I like pigs. Don't tell me that. You know, so, you know, like I said, it's just really. I try to find out. I'm trying to show you what I think the insides of that person is more than the outsides.

[Kara Swisher]

Is there one particular body part that you think is besides the tie?

[Anne Telnaes]

Little hands.

[Alison Bechdel]

Tiny, tiny hands.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. He's now obsessed with cankles. So get on that.

[Alison Bechdel]

I just want to say one thing, Anne, about your drawing, which is that I feel like you captured his monstrosity, but also his essential brokenness. Like, not necessarily in a compassionate way. He doesn't preserve compassion for that, but we can see that there's something really wrong with this person.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah. Well, good. Thank you. I hope I keep doing that.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Alison, you don't draw Trump, but we feel his presence in Svent very clearly. Talk a little bit about that, because Reagan was a real presence in Dykes to watch out for.

[Alison Bechdel]

You know, I struggle with how much of my anxiety and doom to put into my stories, but eventually that sort of became inescapable. Like, you know, we're all living under the cloud of the sky. And so I'm not going to pussy foot around. I'm just going to talk about it. I feel like in the context of the book, Alison becomes less filled with doom and understands that she needs to have a better attitude. Because our attitudes are all that we have, and there's lots of good reasons to be optimistic. And so she eventually arrives at that place.

[Kara Swisher]

But your alter ego, Alison is living through an existential crisis in this book, one that's caused by environmental health, political chaos we're living in. But one of the things the Allison character also is very clear about, the worries about echo chambers. Her partner tells her. Quote, you get all your information from beautifully written and cogently argued Essays in the Atlantic and the New Yorker. We're all in our bubble. And you've talked about trying to bridge the polarization gap. How do you do that? How do you create something that has a mob and snob appeal?

[Alison Bechdel]

Well, I don't know. I mean, this is the big difference between me and Ann. I have always just preached to the choir. That's what I do. But, Ann, you are talking to a mass audience. And that's. That's the thing. That's what needs to happen.

[Anne Telnaes]

Not really. Not really. Nobody. Nobody on the mega side looks at my stuff unless they want to attack it.

[Alison Bechdel]

Well, well, perhaps, but they're still looking at it.

[Kara Swisher]

Fun Home certainly had crossover appeal. Alison became a hit Broadway musical, et cetera.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah, that was a weird thing to leave the margins and move a little closer to the mainstream. And that's, too, as a theme of this book. Like Allison, in the book book, it's just puzzled by how did she go from being this, you know, outsider lesbian character to actually having her book taught in colleges and stuff and making money from it. So that's something I've been struggling with myself.

[Kara Swisher]

So how do you deal with that, bridging this polarization gap? Because presumably you want to reach a lot of people, not necessarily preach to the choir.

[Alison Bechdel]

I do. I mean, when I first started out, I knew I was just writing to other lesbians, maybe some gay men who were reading these gay newspapers. Not even alternative weeklies. Those were still street audiences. And it took me until the mid-90s to break into those papers.

[Kara Swisher]

So how do you then try to deal with that polarization grip? As a graphic novelist.

[Alison Bechdel]

I try to draw cuddly, progressive characters that will appeal to people. I feel like we get such a bad rap. And I just. It was fun to write about these people who I just find quite lovable and endearing, and they're trying so hard to make a better world. Like, can't people see that? But again, the people who need to see that, I doubt, are picking up a copy of Spent. I don't really know how to bridge that gap.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, Ann, after leaving the Washington Post, your substack has over 100,000 subscribers, although they're not all paid. Seems like quitting your job might have been a smart financial decision. The Post does have millions of subscribers, and when you work there, your cartoons were seen by people who disagreed with their message. Grapple with that tension. I just asked Allison.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, it's absolutely. It was. It was a surprise that I could actually make a living doing this. But you know, I also had the benefit of having a cartoon go viral. I have a lot of colleagues on Substack and I think they're doing okay, but I don't really know if it's a viable way to make a living. It is a platform. You know, I've been through various platforms. Twitter used to be my home. You know, obviously it's not anymore, you know, so I'm not. I'm waiting to see how this works out. I think right now it's fine. I do not invite comments. I don't open my comments. It's the one thing I give my paid subscriber. I figure they get to talk. You know, I have enough trouble dealing with people that find me elsewhere. So that's the only thing that I really do different in terms of limiting my audience. I'm kind of with Allison. I don't really know how you bridge this. And I'm not trying through my cartoons. I'm just speaking what I believe. And, you know, that's all we can do. You know, I'm not here to fix the country's problems. I think that's a big, deep seated problem. I mean, I, you know, I have all these plans to do long form pieces that are going to explain why we are where we are. Because I've been doing this. I've been doing editorial cartoons from the early 90s, published ones. And, you know, things started then, if you remember, all the way back, you know, we had the religious right and you know, the Ralph Reeds and all that, and we had the so called moderate Republicans not speaking out. And they're still not speaking out. And, you know, we are where we are because of things like that.

[Kara Swisher]

So right now, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the creators of south park, seem like they're getting their cake.

[Alison Bechdel]

And I haven't seen this episode yet.

[Kara Swisher]

The new one is great. The tech moguls speaking. You should watch that, Anne, because it's all the tech moguls sucking up.

[Anne Telnaes]

Okay, I've only heard of it. I haven't seen it yet.

[Kara Swisher]

This is quite good. They were in a recorded $1.5 billion deal with Paramount. And they mock Trump's alleged microp. Again, they're back with a micropenis this episode. Kristi Noem's plastic surgery, Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg's bribes. Their sense of humor is very sharp edged, often mean spirited. It's very funny. Much of the time. In this case, they're really punching up. It's not always that way. What do you think about this right now, them being at the center of sort of the Trump pushback, which is interesting because I never thought of them as having any side. Just like, they just punch everywhere. Do you think it affects things, this satire? Alison, you start, and then Ann, you know, I don't.

[Alison Bechdel]

Who is the audience for South Park? Is it mostly young men?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Alison Bechdel]

If it is, then fantastic. They. They need to see this. I only have watched sporadic episode. They don't really have a sense of what it's like or the characters or anything. But I say more power to them.

[Kara Swisher]

It's.

[Alison Bechdel]

It's fantastic. I mean, it's. It's. It's like they. Maybe this is their. Like, they have so much power and influence and money that they don't care at this point. I mean, that's a wonderful use of it.

[Anne Telnaes]

I'm like, Allison, I don't follow it all the time. I've only seen sporadic stuff. But, yeah, good for them. They were at Comic Con in San Diego, and they basically said. When somebody asked them first about that first episode, they said, oh, we're really sorry. Very sarcastic voice. I thought, oh, good for you. I mean, the only criticism I have of them is their Kristi Noem is not mean enough.

[Kara Swisher]

Not mean enough.

[Anne Telnaes]

She does show puppies, and I need to show them how to draw her.

[Kara Swisher]

Because, oh, what would you do? They had her face melt off. You don't think it's quite mean enough.

[Anne Telnaes]

She needs bigger lips and bigger hair and bigger thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't know. Their face melted off and wandered away for a minute.

[Anne Telnaes]

But Alison is right, you know, more power to them. I mean, I'm glad they feel that they can do this.

[Kara Swisher]

Does that have more impact? Because this is speaking of cartooning and cartoons and this kind of thing than writing long articles in the Atlantic or.

[Alison Bechdel]

I think that's still probably true. I mean, that's my own excuse for continuing to do it. Like, I'm. It's just true that people are reading less and less, and if you can find a way to draw them in and get them to read and, you know, read something substantive, even though it's got silly drawings connected to it, I think that's a good thing.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, I think it. I think, like she said, it's something that maybe people will follow up and read something afterwards. But, you know, image. I mean, it's pretty simple. Cartoons are images. Everyone likes to look at cartoons. It's not just, can you read or can you not read? It's, you know, the rich, the poor, everyone liked to look at cartoons, and they can be impacted by them.

[Kara Swisher]

Like Thomas Nast or her block.

[Alison Bechdel]

Oh, yeah, I was thinking of Thomas Nast. Like, here's the thing, though. Our culture is so saturated with images that it's hard to have the impact of Thomas Nast to Who took down Tammany hall with his caricatures. Like, I don't know if that can happen anymore. Cause there's so much competition for our eyeballs.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah. Because at the time, they didn't use photographs in newspapers. They basically put that editorial cartoon on the front page. And that's actually how he was apprehended and jailed, by the way, is because somebody recognized him from the caricature.

[Alison Bechdel]

I didn't know that. That's great. Wow.

[Anne Telnaes]

So, yeah, it's. But I just think. I agree there is a lot out there. And, you know, there's always the competition for eyeballs. But, you know, as I said, we're the image people. We're not the words people. I think that's where. And we can reach, you know, across countries now with, you know, the Internet, we can go all over the place, which, of course, creates problems sometimes. But. But yeah, it's. I just think in cartoons. Everybody loves to look at cartoons.

[Kara Swisher]

They do. I do think they. I would say south park is going to have more impact than any hundred articles in any of these newspapers, but we'll see. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from DeleteMe. Here's what data brokers do. They compile things like your name, contact info, Social Security number, home address, even information about your family members, and sell it online. This can lead to identity theft, phishing attempts, and harassment. But now you can protect your privacy with DeleteMe. DeleteMe says they make it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. I can attest to this. I use Delete Me. I take things down all the time, and I was shocked to see how much of my information was out there, especially since I'm so careful about privacy. I love their dashboard. I think it's very easy to use, and I get lots of updates for all the things they found. And I have to say, data brokers are very creative. I wish they would apply their skills to something nicer than stealing your information, take control of your data, and keep your private life private. By signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and enter code Kara at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com K A R A code Kara Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Upwork. Owning a small business means you gotta wear a lot of hats, but sometimes you really could use an extra pair of hands. Upwork is how good companies find great and trusted freelance talent. With Upwork, you get access to a global marketplace filled with top talent in it, web development, AI design, admin support, marketing, and more. Posting a job on Upwork is super simple. There's no cost to join. You can browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation. From there you can connect with freelancers that get you so when you bring them into key projects and initiatives, you can move your work forward. Hiring shouldn't be a hassle, and it also doesn't need to put a strain on your budget. Upwork makes the entire process easier and more affordable with industry low fees. Post a job today and hire tomorrow with Upwork, visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent.

[Anne Telnaes]

Ready to help your business grow.

[Kara Swisher]

That's upwork.com upwork.com support for this show comes from Sixpenny in life, there are times to be frugal and there are times to invest in pieces that you'll love for years to come. If you're in a stage of life where you're outgrowing the cheap, prefab furniture that you've had since your roommate days, consider Sixpenny. Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with extraordinarily comfortable slip covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces, plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. Their furniture is completely customizable and made by hand at their own factory using all natural linens and cottons, lofty cushions overstuffed with ethically sourced feathers, leathers or recycled fibers, all without the use of harmful chemical coatings, perfect for spending an entire weekend. And because they design and produce their furniture in house at their own factory, it's truly a direct consumer operation. Since launching in 2017, Sixpenny has been featured in Architectural Digests, the New York Times, Wirecutter, Time and More. And now through September 4th, you can visit sixpenny.com carriage enjoy 20% off your orders over $1,000 using the code BRIGHTSPOT. That's S I X P-E-N-N-Y.com Kara K A R A code BRIGHTSPOT. Let's pivot a little bit and talk about freedom of speech. After Parama announced it was canceling the Colbert show and you drew a cartoon of a court jester hanging limp from a noose, you've said in an interview it's not a great leap to go from editorial cartoonists being silenced through threats to regular people being reported and questioned about their political belie beliefs. And doing something innocuous is making fun of a politician. Do you think we're headed in that direction? And what would you do if you felt like your freedom of expression was under threat? Obviously you were able to quit the Washington Post, which is a dramatic thing to have to do. But talk a little bit about this.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, I do believe that it's not a big leap to go from satirists, not just cartoonists, but satirists in general, stand up comedians being silenced through either their, you know, the businesses that support them, you know, or just by people threatening them, you know, and self censoring. And I think that's where the danger is going. I think eventually, I mean, we've seen it happen. You don't have. I mean, we're all older, but, you know, it happened in East Germany. People were talking, were reporting on neighbors, you know, for saying things they didn't think they should be saying. So I could see that happening. Yeah. Look how much has happened in the, the eight months since he's become president. So, yeah, I think it's a valid threat. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Allison, your book Fun Home has been targeted by various book bands because of its LGBTQ themes. I mean, completely in spent the fictional Alison moderates a banned books panel and as a sister who's going quote, full Hitler as a member of Liberty Moms, which is a very thinly veiled reference to parents rights slash book banning group Moms for Liberty. Why do you think real life conservative parents are so worried about books will turn their kids gay? Or what happens when gay kids can't read books alternately that don't reflect on their experiences. I, they still become gay because I didn't read a lot of books that reflected on my experience, but they still, still.

[Alison Bechdel]

It's crazy. I don't, I don't know. I, I have a feeling, although I don't have proof for this, that that whole movement was not at all grassroots, but was engineered from the top down by Some. Someone somewhere. Because it's just ridiculous. But, yeah, and I mean, it's ridiculous and it's very dangerous. They, They're. They don't like books with LGBTQ characters. They don't like books with people of color who are protagonists. And of course, it's not the stories, it's the people themselves that they're trying to ban. That's the ultimate message. They don't, they don't want.

[Kara Swisher]

They don't want to see adorable gay people, I guess, if that meant you dropped.

[Alison Bechdel]

So it just feels incredibly clumsy and brutal and crazy. And are they that stupid or are they that deliberate and mean? I can't tell.

[Kara Swisher]

Talk about the experience. I mean, it definitely feels like you were astroturfed, as they say. But did it have a real impact on your book sales?

[Alison Bechdel]

I don't think so. I mean, some people say, oh, well, at least you sold some books. But I don't think that has a huge impact on anyone, you know, getting censored here or there. It certainly puts you in the conversation. I feel like the book has gotten a lot more attention than it would have if no one was trying to ban it.

[Anne Telnaes]

But, Alison, just real quick, how did you feel personally? Because I find book banning chilling. I just, I think just because of the historical thing. How did you feel personally when one of your books was being banned?

[Alison Bechdel]

Because, yeah, I mean, I almost don't like to talk about it because I don't want to give anyone the satisfaction. But of course, it's terribly painful. It's painful and it pisses me off. Like, my book is a memoir about my real life, and people describe it as pornographic. Like, you can't call my life pornographic. I mean, which is essentially what they're doing. And that's just, just. It just makes me crazy. Especially because at least, at least in one of these cases, the man who brought my book to the school board meeting with the giant blown up pictures of the one sex scene in the book was, like, arrested for child molestation a few weeks later.

[Kara Swisher]

But when you, when that happens to you, is it, I mean, have you ever met people who think that and talk to them?

[Alison Bechdel]

I haven't. And I, you know, if I had more time and more like, like, personal strength, I would go there. Dave Eggers organized a trip to somewhere, South Dakota, somewhere where his book and my book were both being banned. And he said, do you want to go? Let's do it? And I just, I didn't, I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to put my resources into that, partly because I really didn't have time, but I didn't want to expose myself to that anger and was very impressed to me that he did it. You know, that was a wonderful, you know, Ally kind of thing to do that he could as a white man. White straight man. Like, I think in some ways it was easier for him to do. I don't know, maybe, Maybe not. But I was very grateful that he did that. And. And he had some very meaningful, interesting conversations with people.

[Kara Swisher]

He probably did. He probably did. Have you tried that, Ann, with people who didn't like your drunk cartoons or.

[Anne Telnaes]

Oh, yeah. I mean, just through email, you know, because, yeah, I. I actually have had good conversations with cons, conservatives, but this is all prior Maga stuff. You know, this was a while back. I mean, I, you know, and. And I have no problem. I think. I think for me, it's just the time element. It's really kind of hard to put aside so much time when you're working to have these back and forth. Nowadays, I just get trolls. I get a ton of trolls.

[Kara Swisher]

And they just say terrible things.

[Anne Telnaes]

They just say shitty stuff and they pop up once in a while and, you know. But, you know, the thing about Allison's experience, I think, is it's important on two different levels is one, obviously, the banning of the book, which I think is horrific historically, as we all know who else banned and burned books. But on another level, it's also an attack against free speech because you're silencing voices. And if you're banning these books and nobody has exposure to a different opinion or, you know, just your fellow man that you know nothing about. Fellow human being. Excuse me. You know, then. Then that's dangerous. That's dangerous on whole, a lot of different levels. And I think the book banning is. I mean, I don't have children, so, you know, I'm not. I'm not coming at it from that point of view, but, you know, I. I just don't understand how it kind of goes back to the way I think about free speech. If you don't. You don't know what you're arguing about, then how can you argue? You know, it was like, I think that's fair.

[Kara Swisher]

I think. I think they think that the exposure is the issue. Right? The exposure to the idea was gonna. And it doesn't. Of course, it doesn't keep them warm.

[Anne Telnaes]

It doesn't. And it's the same thing with the Danish cartoonist. You know, there were no American newspapers, I think, except maybe one or Two that actually printed those cartoons that everybody was having a big old fit about. How do you discuss, how do you sit there and argue what is appropriate and what isn't if you can't see them?

[Kara Swisher]

You're talking about the cartoons that depicted Muhammad.

[Anne Telnaes]

Muhammad, yes, exactly.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they just do that. I mean, I've had people, I do talk to these people all the time. They end up as fans. That's how I get new fans, because I talk to them and I think they just desperately need to be talked to in some weird way. But I have a lot of kids and I had one right wing person saying to me, you people make gay people. I said, I make straight people. I think not unable to make gay people. But you make all the gay people. Not me. Like I can't. I can give them so many visits to, you know, Lucretia Mott's home and it just doesn't work. And trust me, my ex wife used to take them always to the Suffragette Museum. And they're very straight. No matter how much we try, we don't try at all. We don't care. But one of the things you were both inspired to make your art by your experience as women in a male dominated society. In the tech world, content moderation is supposed to make the Internet and social media less toxic for women and minorities. But conservatives and the tech people themselves successfully undone all these efforts at content moderation. Talk about the importance to balance free speech and the right to be free and harassment online. Because there is something to say is like let. As you just were noting, Ann, let it all out. And you've written about how your Twitter feed was flooded with online harassment and death threats in 2016 after the post published a cartoon of yours criticizing Ted Cruz for having his young child read a political attack ad. So let's hear from you on this one.

[Anne Telnaes]

So first of all, I mean, I have editorial cartoons are very used to getting criticism. I mean, it all started with, you know, letters, letters and calls to the editors. And then we went into emails and. But boy, once we had the Internet access, I have never received so much misogynistic crap as I have actually over that cartoon, the Ted Cruz cartoon. Having said that, I do think that it's better to let these idiots talk. When the Ted Cruz thing happened, I was still working for the Post. I didn't respond. I see that differently now. I respond. I also let my readers respond. So I have found that all I do is I just repost what people are sending to me and I say have at it. And you know, it's sort of like that's great. Yeah, I think it's a very good way of doing it because I think that rather than trying to shut people up, because the one thing that I have a problem with about, about limiting content is who decides that? You know what I mean? It's like I did a long form piece about, you know, especially after Charlie Hebdo when the conversation went from, you know, just Sweet Charlie to wait a minute, you know, they shouldn't be doing that, those kind of cartoons. Who decides what is the red line? You know. So I guess I'm a little bit more on the side the of that let the idiots talk. But that doesn't mean you can't challenge them. As long as somebody isn't threatening to kill you. That's different. Right. You start talking about killing me, then yes, you should be.

[Kara Swisher]

Because it's happened especially with cartoonists.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah. So yeah, I'm kind of of that, I mean, Allison, you, I don't know. How do you feel differently?

[Kara Swisher]

Let me note, Allison has spent your alter ego worries about political violence and you yearn to learn how to shoot a gun in order to protect yourself from the proud boys. Since you. Censorship can come in many forms and fear is obviously one of them. Governments aren't the only ones that target artists. So do vigilantes. How do you think about censorship in that context? And how much do you personally worry about political violence? You may not be speaking through this person, but you kind of are in a way.

[Alison Bechdel]

I don't feel consumed by that anxiety, but certainly it's running on my back in my background all the time. I mean there's so many guns floating around this country and who's got most of them? You know, it's a little frightening, but you know, I, I, I miss the old Internet. I had such a wonderful community of readers back in the like the aughts when I had a blog, like a blog and people would just log on and make comments and I didn't have to moderate it because there was no trolls there. I mean eventually they came game and, and then I had to stop. And then everything got so shitty after Gamergate and I was, then I was really out. But I miss, you know, that good aspect of the Internet which is now a thing of the past.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely. But when, why does this character want to shoot a gun? I mean, I have a lot of friends who had, when I read it, I was like, I just had a friend send me a picture who was Liberal shooting an AK47, it looked like. And I was like, oh, oh, don't get a gun. Please don't get a gun. And at the same time, I thought about it. I'm like, oh, well, I.

[Alison Bechdel]

You know, to research that scene, I tried shooting a gun. It's actually my partner's brother has a lot of guns, and he agreed to take me shooting and brought his Glock. And it was like. At first it was just this abstract idea, but then we were really doing it. We were going into this shooting range with all these guys and. And then I was holding this lethal weapon and it kicked like mad. I never felt anything like the jolt that went through my body. And it just scared the shit out of me. Like, I'm not messing with this. But I. But it was. I feel glad that I tried it, you know, just to get a sense of it. But, yeah, you. You. You study war, you get war. So I. I don't need to learn to shoot.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't need to learn to shoot. So you didn't. It's not. The real Allison's not gonna yearn to shoot a gun to protect herself.

[Alison Bechdel]

No. But we do have a.22 for scaring the bears.

[Kara Swisher]

FYI. It's here sitting just anyone, Just so you know, we'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Groons. If you've ever gone down the Internet rabbit hole of trying different nutrition solutions, you likely found a bunch of weird conspiracy theories that range from eating everything you can find to starvation. Thankfully, there is a product that can help improve your skin, gut health and immunity without the crazy ideas attached to them. It's called Grunds. Grunds are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a daily snack pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy, or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some for a fraction of the price. In a Groons daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, 6 grams of prebiotic, 5 fiber, and more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient dense and whole foods, all of which help you out in different ways. For example, Groons has six times the gut health ingredients compared to the leading greens powders. It contains biotin and niacmi, which help with thicker hair, nails and skin health. They also contain mushrooms, which can help with brain function. And of course, you're probably familiar with vitamin C and how it's great for your immune system. On top of all, Groons are vegan and free of nuts, dairy and free Gluten. Gluten. Get up to 52% off when you go to Gruns Co and use the code Cara. That's G r u n s.co using the code Kara K A R A for 52% off. This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you. You've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet, fashionistas, you'll find it on eBay.

[Alison Bechdel]

EBay.

[Kara Swisher]

That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top?

[Anne Telnaes]

Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway.

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[Anne Telnaes]

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yet, here are 15 reasons why you should.

[Anne Telnaes]

One, it's $15 a month.

[Alison Bechdel]

Two, seriously, it's $15 a month.

[Anne Telnaes]

Three, no big contracts.

[Kara Swisher]

Four, I use it.

[Alison Bechdel]

Five, my mom used to say, are.

[Anne Telnaes]

You, Are you playing me off?

[Alison Bechdel]

That's what's happening, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.

[Anne Telnaes]

$15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only.

[Kara Swisher]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com let's end up talking about something that is a bit more uplifting than gun shooting. The art itself. Every episode we get an expert to send. Hey, it's Hannah Rosen from Radio Atlantic of the Atlantic magazine. Hi, Alison. Hi, Anne. So this is a switch places kind of question. Allison, to you. Is there any public official, politician, someone out there who you look at and you're like, oh, I would love to draw that person. I have the exact image in my.

[Anne Telnaes]

Head of how I would do it.

[Kara Swisher]

And then, Ann, to you, I have the opposite question, which is, do you ever think, oh, I'm gonna do a kind of graphic memoir now? Now that my life has taken this turn that's really internal and about my life and my experiences and draw something in that style. That's my question.

[Alison Bechdel]

Thank you, Hannah.

[Kara Swisher]

Alison, you first.

[Alison Bechdel]

Well, I'm gonna have to go with Kristi Noem after. After hearing Ant's story about her face. You know, I, I think this whole, like Republican ultra femininity is such an interesting trend and it would be fun to try and find a way to represent that, that sort of showed through it.

[Kara Swisher]

You Know what would be the image in your head, how you would do it, where would you start, what part of the face?

[Alison Bechdel]

I guess it would have to be the hair. Which will be challenging for me because I have a hard time drawing long hair. But I will learn to do it.

[Kara Swisher]

Why do you have a hard time drawing long hair here?

[Alison Bechdel]

Because it moves and stuff. Like it takes a shape that's different from the head. I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, so the hair. You'd start with the hair, the extensions.

[Anne Telnaes]

Let me correct you.

[Alison Bechdel]

Okay, thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. What about you, Anne?

[Anne Telnaes]

Yes, I have actually thought about it. Editorial cartoonists don't tend to do personal stuff in their work, obviously, because we're dealing with policies and, you know, political issues. But, you know, I've lived long enough now that maybe I would. I mean, it's. I have to say, I'm very. I admire the fact that Alison can do these long form. I mean, that's a lot of work. You know, I mean, years sometimes people take. But yeah, I've thought about it. I mean, I. I've created before during COVID I created an idea for a Covid related but human story as an animated short. Which of course, nobody was interested in. Cause nobody wanted to talk about COVID But yeah, I do try to. I would like to do some more personal work. Unfortunately, I was gonna do that full time until Trump became president again. And then I thought, I have to do this again, so might just take a little longer.

[Kara Swisher]

And you feel like you have to do this now, the Trump stuff.

[Anne Telnaes]

I do. I do. I feel like as an editorial cartoonist, I can't just stop. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

He definitely has a lot of content. He gives you a lot of content every week. All right, let's do something different to have each of you. You guys have been great asking each other questions. Actually, you're both excell experts in your field. Allison, I'd love to hear what question you might have for Ann.

[Alison Bechdel]

I feel like we've already asked all my questions.

[Anne Telnaes]

I have something that we could discuss a little.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Ann, let's hear your question for Allison.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah.

[Anne Telnaes]

Okay. Because since you do create such personal art, how do you feel about AI in art? Because it's all about you. Right? It's a. Not the. It's not. It's. It's. It has to be your experience. It has to be how you feel, how you know what you've done in your life. It's not just about prompts. Right. So tell me what you think about AI Just.

[Kara Swisher]

Just as. Follow generative AI is making it easier for someone with no artistic ability to draw, etc. And some of it's called AI slop. But it's going to get better. Allison.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah, it's funny because I. I actually am teaching comics right now, and I have to put my little statement on my class website about plagiarism and stuff. And now I have to say, please don't use AI to make your drawings. I mean, AI can't yet draw in their sketchbooks that I'm aware of, but they can certainly use AI to generate sketches that they can then draw from. And I just feel like that is maybe fun to play with a little bit. But do not become reliant on it, because you'll just lose that neural capacity to make drawings once you start relying on the computer. Just as you can lose it for finding your way in the world if you only use a gps.

[Kara Swisher]

Maps.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

I just gave my sons a map lesson.

[Alison Bechdel]

Oh, awesome.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's so important.

[Alison Bechdel]

People are losing whole quadrants of their brains.

[Kara Swisher]

So would you read a graphic novel or editorial cartoon from someone who used AI to make drawings and couldn't actually draw themselves if they were expressing? Expressive.

[Alison Bechdel]

I would look at it, but I can't imagine it would be expressive, you know, because it's got to express one. One person's self, and it wouldn't be doing that.

[Anne Telnaes]

And it's not just the whole personal part of, you know, your work. It's also, you know, art is something that you have to learn. I mean, you have to learn if you. If you really do want to draw well and compose well. It's. It's something you learn in school. I mean, we had. At CalArts, we had basic classes even before they let us animate a thing. You was before computers. You know, I. I see now them putting people on computers, you know, in their first year, which I think is crazy, because you have to learn the fundamentals, frankly, in order to. To do anything like that. And I'm with Ellison. I think you're kind of losing. I mean, you doing art is. Is. Is a constant thing. You have to keep working at it. I mean, I still take life drawing classes because I want to keep my skills up.

[Alison Bechdel]

Wow. That's important. Impressive.

[Anne Telnaes]

Well, it's just. It's. It's so invigorating. I love it. I mean, I'm just. I. I just. I think it's great. And plus shows in your.

[Alison Bechdel]

In your work and your figure. The figures are so amazing.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, well, it's the love of Drawing, you want to do a good, you know, you want to do a really good job.

[Alison Bechdel]

If you don't want to do the drawing, you shouldn't be a cartoonist.

[Anne Telnaes]

Exactly.

[Alison Bechdel]

And have you ever, have you ever asked AI to generate a Telnes cartoon?

[Anne Telnaes]

No, but I've seen it them and it's like, really? That's not my work.

[Kara Swisher]

Really? Tell me, tell me, what did you see? What did they do?

[Anne Telnaes]

Oh, it was like, you know, obviously what the AI used was the fact that in my earlier work I used a pen and brush. I'm sorry, a brush and ink. So it's very clean lines, kind of Hirschfeld. Like that was my earlier work. So what they did is they created this piece of art that had very clean lines and women that were like profile and black and white. And I'm like, well. And not even close, you know. So, yeah, it's just, it's. And it's lazy. It's cheating. I always say it's theft when you're using AI because it's coming from somewhere. It's coming from another artist.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Somewhere. Have you seen yours, Alison?

[Alison Bechdel]

No, I have never asked that question and I don't think I ever will.

[Kara Swisher]

No. Then I'll do it for you. I did it. I actually did it one year when I was writing my book and it was terrible. And I then did it for the paperback and it was so much better. And it was quite close, I would have to say. I think text is easier. Right. In some ways. And that leads me to two more questions. I would love to talk about some of the artistic choices you're making. For example, why you switched to digital drawings halfway through the book. Allison. Or why you use watercolors to draw Trump. Anne. Anne, you go first and then Allison. Yeah.

[Anne Telnaes]

Like I said in my earlier work, when I first started editorial cartooning, I was using. Using a brush and ink. And the reason for that was because I started out doing cartoons, cross hatching, like every other single editorial cartoonist did in the old days. And I realized I couldn't do them fast. And you have to work fast. You know, Allison mentioned that you're always, you gotta do these things fast every day, you gotta do a new one. And I discovered, well, you know, I knew how to use a brush and ink because I had done licensing art for Warner Brothers, as a matter of fact, and I was really good at it, in fact. So that's why I use that. So that's where the, the look came. Right. But once Trump got into office, I just, I don't Know, I had to change. I had been doing a little digital color because of the animated pieces. You know, I still drew by hand the line art and scan it in. But, you know, because there's so many drawings in animation, I use digital color, which I use it pretty sparingly, so it's not like oversaturated, but. But yeah. So I just thought, you know, just the way he's beh and the way his administration is going, I needed to just kind of scribble it out. So I switched, I went to Prisma pencil, which is very soft pencil you can grip and color. Watercolors was so immediate and I don't know how to use watercolors, frankly. And it'll just go off on its own, so you can't control it very well. So it just seemed to be the right way to do trunk watercolors.

[Kara Swisher]

So, so funny. It's such an interesting choice, but go ahead.

[Alison Bechdel]

Are you saying you use the pencils like watercolor pencils or actual watercolors?

[Anne Telnaes]

No, no, I used for my line instead of the brush and ink, I used a Prismacolor black soft pencil. So scribbles not a one line all the time. Right. And then for the color, I just went to real, real watercolors. So I don't even do except for scanning it in to get it ready to go. Go and correct spelling mistakes, which I always seem to be doing. Then that's all I do on the computer now.

[Kara Swisher]

What about you, Allison?

[Alison Bechdel]

Well, I, as you say, I did make a very big switch from drawing on paper with a steel nib to drawing digitally.

[Kara Swisher]

Tip of the nib. Right. What do you say?

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah, that's right. Yes. I would often give tips of the nib to people who like, gave me ideas. Now I guess I can't do that. Tip of the stylus, I guess doesn't have quite the same ring. But yes. Halfway through, through this, my newest book spent, I was falling behind in my deadline and I realized how much faster digital drawing could be. Where I'm making my sketches on a tablet and it's very easy to layer stuff, bring in drawing references, do it all in one place instead of having to scan things and resize them all the time. And it was so much faster. But lack of lacks the beautiful line quality that I used to have. Now I just have this kind of. You can see it if you look closely in the book. We go from a nice, very smooth line to a kind of rough, crappy looking line.

[Kara Swisher]

Didn't notice. Sorry.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah, most people won't notice. And Ann, actually, this is the thing I was going to say to you. Like, I feel like our actual drawings often don't get a lot of attention. It's the content that people often always are responding to. There's often not much of an aesthetic discussion of our drawings. I mean, I find that in my stuff. I don't know if you feel that too.

[Anne Telnaes]

I occasionally have people who obviously geeky readers that kind of notice certain things. The one thing that I've noticed always, it seems like my worst drawings are always the one that go viral. You know, it's never that beautiful drawing you're talking about that goes viral or it's always, always those horrendous sketches of tech titans on their knee.

[Kara Swisher]

But you did depict them rather well, I have to tell you. Really did.

[Anne Telnaes]

If they had given me a chance to do the final.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it wasn't the final. Oh, I didn't realize.

[Anne Telnaes]

No, no, no. That was the. That's only a rough. That goes to the editor for approval to go to final.

[Kara Swisher]

I will tell you. What a putz move on his part. Alison, I'm sorry, you were finishing up with digital. So you. So you like doing it this way, correct?

[Alison Bechdel]

I kind of do.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, you can say you don't like the typewriter anymore and you like the computer.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah, it's. Say you don't have to grapple with gravity or humidity, all the things that are constantly affecting the drawing process, but it, it, there's slightly less soul in it. You know, I, I'd like to find some kind of compromise between maybe digital sketching and then actual drawing with a pen again, but I haven't figured that out yet.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, neither of you churned your butter anymore, so it's okay. So, last question, spent ends and a spoiler for listeners. I'm about to say how it ends with Alison emerging from her existential crisis and realizing you have to live one day at a time and that community is still what really matters. And your work is non narrative. It has no end. And as a journalist covering Trump, you never know what fresh horror awaits you every day. So where are your heads right now? How do you feel about the ability of America's artists in general, and yourselves in particular, to CR Chronicle and examine our current reality? Anne, you start and then Allison finish up.

[Anne Telnaes]

Where's my head? Just above water, I suppose. You know, I'm just hanging on. I did that in his first administration. This one seems a little bit more urgent, obviously because of the democracy issue. I'm just Kind of just plowing ahead and trying to keep up. I think editorial cartoonists are just doing. Frankly, I don't think anybody has a plan.

[Kara Swisher]

And you just take what happens every day.

[Anne Telnaes]

We have to. That's what we deal with every day.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Is there anything that animates you right now, in particular of all the various horrors that he unleashes?

[Anne Telnaes]

Oh, you know, I think because we're, because we're artists. This whole cultural Smithsonian, Kennedy center stuff, this is so horrifying to me. It's like it's the same level as book banning. It's like, I mean, I've read, I've gone back and read a lot about, you know, the Nazis and how they control the German people. And, you know, that's what they did. They took over things. And I, I see it.

[Kara Swisher]

And the depictions of Jewish people as animals and stuff was all artistic because Hitler himself was an artist.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, not just that, but also just the whole, you know, you know, the degenerative art stuff. You know, there were all kinds of people, artists that were, were banned and forced to leave and arrested because of, you know, just doing it differently than what they saw as German proper art. And I just am horrified by this because it's continuing. I mean, it's hilarious on one level because his style and his tastes are basically low level Las Vegas, but, you know, it's horrifying on a different. On another level.

[Alison Bechdel]

A friend of mine was just joking that next Baron Trump will be appointed to Pulitzer the committee.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, I, I think you're absolutely right. I think this idea of, you know, slavery being not as bad, you know, or maybe how bad. Don't, don't focus too much on how bad slavery was is sort of. It's a shocking thing for him to have written, but not because it's him. Right. On some level.

[Alison Bechdel]

Well, I, I personally miss the, the quick turnaround time that I had when I used to write a bi weekly comic strip. Still nothing like a daily thing when I could really comment on what was happening. I don't have the chops to do that anymore. But I would like to continue this world that I've set up and spent. I'd love to do a sequel and show all these characters living through this current moment. I was trying to think, could I put it out serially in little segments and maybe that's a possibility. But, but so far I think I'm just going to try to tell another long story.

[Kara Swisher]

I really appreciate this has been really. I love that your interaction together too. I knew this would work out.

[Alison Bechdel]

Yeah. This was so fun, and I'm so happy I got to meet you.

[Anne Telnaes]

Yeah, I'm really glad to meet you. I hope we can talk again soon.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that would be great. Anyway, you're both doing a great service. Absolutely. Even though you think. I think you do know, but you do. Just so you know. I'm telling you, telling you that.

[Alison Bechdel]

Thank you, Kara.

[Anne Telnaes]

Thanks for having us. All right.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro Wisel, Kateri Yocum, Michelle Eloy, Megan Burney, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, Allison doesn't need to buy a gun. If not, get ready for Anne's version of Kristi Noem. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.