← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:01]
Sponsor Announcer
Support for the show comes from Crucible Moments, a podcast from Sequoia Capital. What is a Crucible Moment? It's a turning point where we face a tough decision and our response can shape the rest of our lives. These decisions happen in business too, and Sequoia Capital's podcast Crucible Moments gives you a behind the scenes look, asking founders of some of the world's most important tech companies like YouTube, DoorDash, Reddit, and more to reflect on those critical junctures that defined who they are today. Tune into season two of Crucible Moments today. You can also catch up on season one at cruciblemoments or wherever you listen to podcasts. Support for the show comes from Chevrolet Artificial Intelligence Smart Houses, Electric Vehicles we are living in the future, so why not make 2024 the year you go fully electric with Chevy? The all electric 2025 Equinox EV LT starts around $34,995. Equinox EV a vehicle you know, valued you'd expect and a dealer right down the street go EV without changing a thing. Learn more at chevy.com Equinox EV the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment dealer sets final price.
- [01:20]
Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty if you ever wondered what happens when a boardroom is a majority women, look no further than Elf Beauty. Out of about 4,100 U.S. publicly traded companies, E L F is the only one to have a corporate board of directors that is 78% women and 44% diverse. They're making the best of beauty, accessible to every eye, lip and face, and changing the board game while they do it. Visit elf.com changetheboard game to learn more.
- [01:51]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's on.
- [01:59]
Sponsor Announcer
It is on.
- [02:02]
Kara Swisher
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Lenard Larry McKelvey, also known as Charlamagne Tha God. He's one of the hosts of the Breakfast Club, a bestselling author and a podcaster, media critic, media mogul, and mental health advocate. He's also a the Radio hall of Fame, has hosted multiple TV shows, and he's interviewed a raft of politicians, including Vice President Kamala Harris, President Joe Biden, and President Barack Obama. I wanted to talk to Charlamagne for a lot of reasons. I was on his show once. I thought he was excellent. I just find it really interesting all the directions he goes in in media. I don't agree with him all the time. But what he's doing is really creative and interesting for a media figure these days, and I always like to talk to those people. And he also had some impact on the election in both positive and negative ways, no matter what you think of, and he doesn't care either way. By the way, Charlamagne has tremendous sway in the world of politics and pop culture, and he always has a sharp opinion. He's also a great entrepreneur, which I always love. Our expert question comes from Nicholas Kwa, a staff writer for Vulture and New York Magazine, who's been writing about podcasts for about a decade. So let's get to it.
- [03:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
It is all.
- [03:25]
Kara Swisher
How are you doing? I haven't seen you since I was on your show.
- [03:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
I know. I see you all the time. I see you every Sunday morning or Saturday morning. Saturday. Saturday morning.
- [03:34]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, thank you so much. I'm actually glad we're doing this after the election. It's actually a lot better. And I know you hate small talk, so let's just dive right in. So just overall, how are you liking the Trump transition Cabinet choices? Alonia Musk, Matt Gaetz, making RFK eat a Big Mac and fries. What stands out? What are you surprised by?
- [03:56]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? As of right now, it looks like he's making all the wrong choices, but I guess that is feeding into his whole outsider thing. You know, it's like the whole drain, the swamp thing that he ran on in 2016. And, you know, if they're a administration that's looking to make major change, they don't want to have any of the, I guess, old DC type around, so they're trying something new. But, you know, the interesting thing for me is, like, I'm not wishing on them to fail.
- [04:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, you said that on Daily Show.
- [04:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, I hope that this works. I don't think it will, but, you know, I'm hoping that it does. I don't know.
- [04:40]
Kara Swisher
Is there anything you're surprised by? I mean, RFK eating the Big Mac was my moment of favorite because it's sort of like a drug dealer's making the cop take the drugs so that they know if they're a cop or not kind of thing?
- [04:53]
Charlamagne Tha God
If we're like on Training Day when Alonzo was like, smoke it, smoke it, smoke it. Yeah. For me, man, if we're still surprised by anything concerning Donald Trump, then we have really, really, really normalized Trump in ways that I can't even explain anymore. So, I mean, there's no such thing as, like, being surprised. Like, this is what we expect. The surprise is gonna come when he does something relatively. Like I said on the Daily show the other night, like, if he just plays golf. Yeah. Do the opposite of everything your political opponents say you're gonna do. Like, just completely do the opposite. Don't prove them right. Just be a regular Republican, you know, president who, you know, ruins the economy, leads us into recession. I can deal with that.
- [05:42]
Kara Swisher
Do you have any reason to believe he'll do that, or is it just wishful thinking on your part, or hope?
- [05:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
That is a great question. I think it is just wishful thinking. I think it is just hope. I think it is just optimism, because I think the things that we have all felt. Oh, no, forget the things that I'm about to say. The things that we all feel like he's gonna do. No, the things he's actually said he's going to do are too terrifying for any American to even wrap their brain around. So it's like, I have to have optimism. I have to have hope, because anything else is too terrifying to even think about. And people love to say that. We have Trump derangement syndrome. We only have that because of the things that he said.
- [06:24]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Cause he's deranged. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:27]
Charlamagne Tha God
He said things. He's done things. We watched him lead an attempted coup in his country. Like, you know, we've heard him say he wants to jail his political opponents, he wants to jail journalists. Like, we've heard him say these things. I was having this conversation last week with somebody, and they was like, he just says all of these things to Rao. You know, voters up. He stirs up waters to catch fish. I hope so.
- [06:49]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [06:51]
Charlamagne Tha God
You got everything you want now, right? You got all three branches of government. You got the presidency. Hopefully that's enough.
- [06:57]
Kara Swisher
But you asked him not to be a fascist, Right? I mean, is there a worry that they will actually? I mean, I'm a Maya Angelou girl, so I'm like, if someone says they're.
- [07:05]
Charlamagne Tha God
Somebody, shows who they are, believe them.
- [07:06]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I'm that person. I've always thought about that with him. Is there one worry you have the most or not at all? Or is there many multifaceted worries?
- [07:15]
Charlamagne Tha God
I mean, many. I don't even know what that. I only have a history to look to when we're talking about authoritarian regimes. Right. And I haven't read one that I can say to myself, oh, you know what? This will be okay.
- [07:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [07:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like, this is something I want my kids to Grow up in, like, yeah, no, this is America. Like, the reason that you have people risking their life, you know, to come across the border is because this is supposed to be the land of milk and honey. Like, you know, there's a certain creed that this country, you know, has. That has benefited so many of us. And to see that taken away or the potential. To see the potential of that being taken away is, like. That's terrifying. Yeah.
- [07:56]
Kara Swisher
You know, on this week's show with Andrew Schultz, he's like your Scott Galloway. It's interesting, but what he was saying is he wanted you to admit you were wrong, but you said, I still like. Meaning you want everything to work out. Right. You said, I like America, not him. Essentially, that's what was the message you were trying to put out.
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Charlamagne Tha God
And that's how I feel.
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Kara Swisher
Yeah. So once the election was over, though, you did criticize Harrison Biden for dropping their rhetoric about Trump being dangerous and fascist, but you were also calling for peace and unity. Talk about why that's different from what they did. And I know you said, they're politicians. You're just a guy, you know. Well, you're a powerful guy. But.
- [08:32]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, I'm not in a. I'm not the President of the United States of America, and I'm not the Vice President of the United States of America, and I'm not a former joint Chief of staff. Like, I feel like when they say those things, you know, it holds a heart, whole lot of weight. And the problem I have a lot of times with the Democratic Party is like, you know, they don't stand for nothing, and they don't stand on anything. So it's like, if you went, so hard date, he's a fascist. You know, he's a threat to democracy. I'm talking about literally a day before the election, and then right when the election is over, it's like, welcome back to the White House. You know, peaceful transition to power. It's like, so what happened to all of that fascist talk? And see that that's part of the normalization of Donald Trump, because there's people who already didn't believe any of the rhetoric that they were spewing, and now that they backed up off of it, like, they definitely don't believe it.
- [09:26]
Kara Swisher
So what would you have him do? You were joking about giving him kombucha instead of Diet Coke, but what would you have him do?
- [09:33]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, I would have President Biden say, hey, look, I am a person who still believes in the Constitution. I believe in democracy. This is what the Constitution says we should do have a peaceful transition of power. But, but please, let me remind you of who this person is. Like, they should have took that time while they were in the White House. He should have been having that conversation to Donald Trump like that, publicly, publicly. He's still Trump's elder statesman, Right. And he's been in government for so long, he should have, I don't want to say scolded, but, yeah, he should have at least lectured Trump on the things that he's been saying and the things he does not want to see him do. You know, when he becomes the 47th president of the United States of America.
- [10:19]
Kara Swisher
Like, yeah, and you just saw Joe and Mika Brzezinski go down to Mar A Lago.
- [10:24]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'm not mad at anyone who's covering the president elect. I'm not mad at anybody who's covering the president of the United States of America. I think we should. You should be covering him. You should be having conversations with him. Because if you were the people that have been on the air or on TV or on radio or on podcasts challenging him, you should be challenging him to his face. I do not like people who have conversations about folks, but don't have conversations to folks or with folks, especially when you have the opportunity to do so. So I think that any of those individuals, especially in media, yes, you should be sitting down there having conversations with him, but you have to challenge him, and you have to continue to remind people and remind him of the things that he said and tell him, hey, we didn't forget you did this.
- [11:14]
Kara Swisher
Right?
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Charlamagne Tha God
And we don't want the American people to forget you did these things and said these things either. But it's up to you to prove us wrong.
- [11:20]
Kara Swisher
What's the line between covering and kowtowing, though? You know, in terms of there's all kinds of things. He threatened networks, for example.
- [11:27]
Charlamagne Tha God
I think it's impossible for them not to kowtow because they were kowtowing before he won. That's why you see, you know, FOX News, they've been on the trumpet, you know, gravy train forever, right? And then, you know, MSNBC has kind of. They're completely on the other side. CNN has really tried to toe the line in a lot of ways. And I think everybody was dreading this moment. Like, everybody was trying to play nice just in case he became president of the United States of America again. And, you know, now that he has, I don't know if there, if anybody's going to ever truly cover him honestly on cable News, what would you do.
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Kara Swisher
If you get an interview? What would you want to focus in on? Depends on what he does, right?
- [12:11]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, no, I think if I was to interview him now, I think you still have to. You have to question him on everything that he said that caused people to label him fascist, that caused people, you know, to say he is an authoritarian. Like, you have to just bring all of those things to the forefront. You have to ask him about these statements that he made. What did you mean when you posted on Truth Social you wanna terminate the Constitution to overthrow the results of the election? If that wasn't a coup on January 6, what do you call it? What do you mean when you say you wanna do mass deportations? Like, you know, like you have to question him on all of these things. Like, don't you think mass deportations will cripple the economy in a lot of ways? Don't you think that's, you know, cruel and unusual punishment? What did you mean when you said you wanted to, you know, turn the guns on Liz Cheney? Like, there's a bunch of different things that you could be questioning the President about.
- [13:03]
Kara Swisher
So you went hard at CNN on Anderson Cooper. You said, we talk about him, meaning Trump being a threat to democracy. We don't treat him like one. And you said, journalistic integrity has been lost. I'd love you to just. After this, I saw it and everything else, but I saw a ton of great reporting all over. Maybe not by Anderson Cooper, but a lot of great reporting. Susan Craig, all these things on Bad acts, bad behav. It didn't make a dent. As good as it was, some of it was quite excellent.
- [13:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
I want to, I'm glad you asked me about that because that wasn't personal towards Anderson. I was just speaking about the media as a whole and I even, you know, me and Angela Ryan, we were on, we kept saying that to Anderson. Like we're not necessarily talking about you.
- [13:47]
Kara Swisher
But you're sitting here.
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Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. You know, so for me, it's just something that I've seen over the almost last decade when it comes to Trump. Like, it's a normalization of him. Like, nobody ever speaks to Donald Trump, like the threat that they say he is, like, ever. Like, they talk about him like he's just a regular run of the mill presidential candidate.
- [14:11]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
- [14:12]
Charlamagne Tha God
And he's not. And it's interesting to me how we know they can villainize and demonize people when they want to because it's easy for them to do to the others. Like they'll villainize and demonize. You know, the vice president for, you know, somebody else saying that she's not black.
- [14:29]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
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Charlamagne Tha God
For somebody else saying that she's a DEI hire. And they'll have those conversations, you know, ad nauseam, are another thing that I see on CNN a lot. Sometimes they'll have a conservative on a panel and they'll be having a discussion that they need to have about something, but then this conservative will just come with something so wild and crazy just to derail the whole conversation.
- [14:55]
Kara Swisher
You speak of Scott Ch. I believe you speak of Scott Jennings.
- [14:59]
Charlamagne Tha God
Scott Jennings, the Kevin O'Leary. I think Kevin from Shark Tank.
- [15:04]
Kara Swisher
He's the less smart. He's the less smart version of Scott Jennings.
- [15:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
But it's like, yo. And you know, it's interesting. Cause I think Scott does bring a lot of good points sometimes, but sometimes I'm just sitting there watching and I'm like, yo, you just threw a grenade on the table for no reason. Or the guy that was on there when Mehdi Hasan was on there and he just like, you just throw in a grenade to throw one.
- [15:22]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's exactly right.
- [15:23]
Charlamagne Tha God
It just derails the whole conversation. So a lot of times there's conversations that need to be had amongst smart people who are there in good faith. Right. Cause you can't have bad faith conversations. You can't have bad faith arguments. If you wanna have a good faith debate, sure. A lot of times y'all are there having good faith debates and then boom, boom.
- [15:41]
Kara Swisher
Right?
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Charlamagne Tha God
Well, that's the point.
- [15:42]
Kara Swisher
It's entertainment. Scott told me in a break, this is like wrestling. And I said, step away from me before I smack you across the face. You know what I mean? I was like, wrest. Oh, God, I hate you. Anyway, I don't hate him. But one of the things is there has been great reporting. It just doesn't make a dent. I mean, I'm thinking of a wide range of reporters I've interviewed that had devastating accounts that didn't matter. I mean, the same thing with Matt Gaetz over and over again. It doesn't seem to touch him in some way.
- [16:12]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, I think that, you know, Donald Trump, he really is Teflon Don. And, you know, I think he's unique in the sense that he's more sincere about his lies than Democrats are about their truth. And I think that he speaks to people's grievances in a way that, you know, Democrats don't necessarily. It's not that Democrats don't care about the things he cares about, of course, Democrats care about the economy. Of course Democrats care about, you know, the border. They just don't speak to it in the way that Trump does. Trump will straight up be like, hey, the reason y'all don't got no money is because the money's going over here to all of the illegal immigrants.
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Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [16:46]
Charlamagne Tha God
Hey, the border. Y'all need to build the wall. They're coming over here. They're bringing their worst. They're raping you. They're killing you. It's like, whoa. It's just. As crude as it may sound. It's simple.
- [16:56]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
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Charlamagne Tha God
And it sticks.
- [16:58]
Kara Swisher
It's also a grain of truth and everything.
- [17:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
And he says it over and over and over and over. I think that's one thing that you're speaking to. It's like, you can have this great reporting, but number one, who's amplifying it, and number two, who's saying it over and over and over, so it sticks.
- [17:12]
Kara Swisher
Talk about that. The normalization, though. You've said Trump is dangerous because he's funny. On your podcast, you have a comedian co host who is funny and does a great job selling Trump as a great patriot. But is there something wrong? I listen to podcast. I was just listening to this last one you just did. And there's distinctly both sides are corrupt vibe. Right. Everybody sucks. Why talk about being a professional contrarian? Because a lot of these podcasts are that, you know, it's sort of this cynical attitude, like, you all suck.
- [17:46]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't think Andrew's being a professional contrarian.
- [17:48]
Kara Swisher
Okay, tell me.
- [17:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
I've known Andrew long enough to know that's truly how he feels, like he's a liberal from Manhattan who, over the years, you know, who has gravitated towards, you know, some of the rhetoric that's coming from the right. And I think a lot of it, especially when you're a comedian, a lot of it has to do with cancel culture. Because, let's be honest, liberals do have a way of eating their own. Right? And liberals do have a way of, you know, taking the one worst moment from a person and then amplifying that and just trying to, you know, do everything in their power to. To get that person out of here. And I think that turns a lot of people off. And I think sometimes in a lot of ways, our common sense has been threatened. Right. Like, I saw something that. What's the. Seth Moulton from Massachusetts.
- [18:40]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
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Charlamagne Tha God
I saw what he said about how, you know, Democrats were easily offended by everything. And, you know, he spoke. I'm paraphrasing Here. But he said something like I should be able to say, hey, I don't want my daughter playing sports against a male athlete getting run over by a male athlete. I should be able to say that and not be crucified for it. I'm paraphrasing what he said. That's essentially what he said. And I think a lot of people feel like that.
- [19:05]
Kara Swisher
Here's my issue is they make it a bigger issue than it is. Why is this suddenly the biggest issue of our lives? Right? And it's not. They're not doing it cuz they care. They're doing it cause it works. That's you know what I mean? It's like.
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Charlamagne Tha God
Well I would say this. Are they making it the bigger issue or did Democrats make it the bigger issue? Cause when you have somebody like Joe Biden tweet out trans rights is the civil rights issue of our lifetime. Right. Like he said that.
- [19:27]
Kara Swisher
So he did. But like then you have Jim justice over in West Virginia. When asked, you know, after they spent all this time passing laws on these issues, asked how many instances there were, there was zero. So it's kind of, I think it gets used. The bathroom thing didn't work and so they moved to this. Obviously a fairness issue is an important issue. I just, I think it gets. This isn't the biggest issue of our time and it's become that. But I think it represents something else. Right? It's that you don't get to say what you want. Right. Without a price. Correct.
- [20:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh, I'm fine with, I'm fine with that. I believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe that you're not free from the consequences of that speech. But I just feel like. And that's actually one of the reasons I wrote the book Get Honest to Die, why small talk sucks. Because we just live in a world that makes these micros macros. And everybody always, they listen to me when I talk about the micros turning into macros. But the other part of that is we don't even know how to discuss macros anymore.
- [20:24]
Kara Swisher
Right.
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Charlamagne Tha God
We don't know how to discuss the economy. We don't know how to discuss, you know, the border issue. Like we'll label certain things liberal or republican based on what the issue is and what the talking points are. I remember back in January I was doing an interview with Fox News and the digital guy over there at Joseph asked me a simple question. He said, do I think the border is going to be an issue come November? And I said yes, hell yes. Because for the first time in my life I'm hearing people in my community complain about what's going on at the border. I got activist friends in Chicago who are telling me, man, it's crazy out here. Like, you know, not only are they taking over our neighborhoods, they're getting resources that we've never even gotten. You know, when I got a parking attendant in New York City who I see every day come to me in tears, talking to me about, you know, MF13 taking over his neighborhood, and he knows it's because of the border. This isn't a. These are white MAGA people. These are black and brown people in the hoods of America having these conversations with me. So when I expressed that and said to, you know, Fox News, what I'm hearing, MSNBC runs the headline, charlamagne tha God is pushing MAGA messaging. That's not MAGA messaging. And I think that's where, you know, a lot of Democrats failed on that issue. Well, I do.
- [21:41]
Kara Swisher
Although, you know, everything is like a headline versus a real thing. Right. They don't want to talk about the actual issues. One of the things, though, I have noticed in the last couple of weeks is this. I call it a sore winner kind of tendency. Did you see the NFL players doing the Trump dance?
- [21:56]
Charlamagne Tha God
The Trump dance?
- [21:57]
Kara Swisher
Oh, you know, when Trump does that weird dance, it looks like he's jacking off two dicks.
- [22:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
Bill Maher. That's what Bill Maher says. Yeah, he's jacking off two dicks.
- [22:04]
Kara Swisher
It really does. It kind of fits it. There's a lot of that. There's a lot of running around saying, you know, absolutely. I argue this, but this was Scott Galloway. They won. And then the right places, but the numbers keep getting tighter and tighter. Right. It's 49.2 versus 48.7. Right. It's not a huge difference. It's half and half, which creates a problem. Right. Do you think there's gonna be overreach on that part? Like, sort of the idea of it?
- [22:32]
Charlamagne Tha God
No, no. Cause the win is a win. And, you know, Democrats would've been doing the same thing if Vice President Kamala Harris won. Yeah, they would've been.
- [22:40]
Kara Swisher
It's like sports.
- [22:41]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. They'd have been spiking the football, too. They would have definitely been celebrations because it would've been historic. Right. The first woman president. The first woman of color president. Like, they would have. Absolutely.
- [22:49]
Kara Swisher
Better dancer.
- [22:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
Better dancer, probably by far. There would have definitely been a celebration if the vice president. One people would have been celebrating the end of the Trump Era, they would have, like, we know that's over. Like, yeah, the democracy still restored. There would have definitely been a lot of reason to celebrate. Vice President Kamala won. So I'm not mad at them for that.
- [23:08]
Kara Swisher
But the manosphere is having a good time these days. You know, Joe Rogan, Theo Vaughan, Andrew, stuff like that. Are you part of the manosphere? Do you consider yourself part of the manosphere?
- [23:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
No, I'm not part of the manosphere. I am a man, but I'm not part of the man. I'm aware I'm not part of the manosphere. But you know what's so interesting about those three that you named? I don't even think you should put them in the manuscript.
- [23:30]
Kara Swisher
Oh, all right. Okay.
- [23:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
I really feel that way. I feel like Andrew, I don't know Theo Vaughn personally. Of course I know Andrew personally, is a good friend of mine. Joe, I know pretty well because of Andrew. But just listening to Joe over the years, he's really just a curious person. Like, if you've listened to his show consistently every week for the past 15 years, he's really just a curious individual. He doesn't really have, like, a particular ideology about anything. He's really just a person that likes to sit down and ask questions. He was a Bernie bro.
- [24:04]
Kara Swisher
Yes, he was.
- [24:05]
Charlamagne Tha God
He was back in Bernie Sanders at one point.
- [24:07]
Kara Swisher
He's also curious about conspiracy theories. But go ahead, Go ahead.
- [24:10]
Charlamagne Tha God
I think. But we all are. And then he. There was a time, and this was something I was even telling Kamal Harris campaign. The same way Donald Trump, you know, manipulated me and used me in his ads. Yes. You could have did the same thing with Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan said that Trump was a threat to democracy. Joe Rogan said he felt like Trump might be unstable and, like, why didn't you use that.
- [24:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- [24:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
In your ad? So I think Joe is a. I think he's a fair person if you sit down and have a conversation with him.
- [24:40]
Kara Swisher
So you don't think they had any responsibility for that? I mean, this idea that everything was up to the manosphere, that Trump won because of that.
- [24:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh, no. I think that Trump doing that podcast run on all of those different podcasts definitely impacted because. And I said this on Brilliant Idiots last week, Trump went after a demographic that people never talked to, which is poor white people. I'm from South Carolina. My first white friend. His name is Thomas Evans. That's still my friend to this day. We didn't know black and white. We just knew poor. We grew up poor on a Dirt road in Mons Corner, South Carolina. I know those type of people. He spoke directly to them, right? And then this go around, he spoke directly to young males, in particular, young white males, and both of those different demographics, right? The poor people in rural areas and the young white males in 2024, like, they don't. Those are blocks that people say, don't vote. So he energized enough of them that I think that, you know, it caused impact. So I don't think. Yeah, you gotta give the Manosphere credit for this election cycle.
- [25:47]
Kara Swisher
One of the things you wrote in Get Honest or Die Lying, you had a quote that says, change culture and you change lives. Right? And the Manosphere podcast helped, for lack of a better word. I'm not gonna say the word again. Help change culture and make Trump seem cool to young guys. But is there a responsibility beyond just being curious or not?
- [26:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
Not in those spaces, I don't think. I'm not looking to Theo Vaughn to challenge Donald Trump. I'm looking for Theo Vaughn to be Theo Vaughn with Donald Trump. I'm looking for Andrew Schultz to be Andrew Schultz with Donald Trump. I'm looking for Rogan to be Rogan with Donald Trump. I think that is why legacy media still matters so much, because legacy media is the ones that have to challenge Donald Trump and hold Donald Trump accountable.
- [26:34]
Kara Swisher
So not these guys.
- [26:36]
Charlamagne Tha God
I don't think so. That's like saying going on late night television, do you expect like, Jimmy Fallon to hold him? I remember when Jimmy got in trouble because Jimmy shook his hair and everybody was saying, oh, you're normalizing Trump. But it's like, I don't look for Jimmy Fallon to do that.
- [26:52]
Kara Swisher
Like, yeah, I see. That's a fair point. So that it's into the question, can we get an expert to send a question for our guests? And let's hear yours.
- [27:01]
Nicholas Kwa
Hi, Charlamagne. I'm Nicholas kwa, a staff writer at New York Magazine and Vulture. I've written a bunch about the podcast world over the past decade. One of the bigger narratives from this election cycle is a sense of conflict between traditional and non traditional media. The Trump campaign seemed to understand more intuitively that they were working with a media environment where no one consumes the same things any longer. Much more so than the Harris campaign, at least, which seemed to operate with the assumption that the old media institutions still held the bulk of power. As an old school broadcaster who's also a podcaster and who generally practices a full court press approach to your profession, to what extent do you share the interpretation that what we saw this cycle is the continuing decline of mainstream media in general and the rise of a media culture where there is no mainstream. Or do you see it differently? Do you see podcasts like the Joe Rogan Experience as a new mainstream, something else? Thank you for your time.
- [27:56]
Kara Swisher
That's a good question.
- [27:58]
Charlamagne Tha God
It's a fantastic question. I think that there's multiple screams. I think there may not be a main scream. There might be a legacy media scream, then there might be a new media scream. And I don't even know if you can call somebody like Rogan new media. Rogan's been around for 15 years. Me and Andrew Schultz, we've been doing our brilliant Ideas podcast for 12 years. So we've been around. I think that Kamala Harris and I disagree with something that he said. I feel like the vice President actually did what you should do, which is meet people where they are. Like, we live in a world now where back in the day we would say if you build it, they would come, but now you gotta meet people where they are. I feel like she met people where they were. Maybe she didn't go to enough places. But you saw her on the. Call her Daddy podc. But then you also saw her on the View. You saw her on Club Sh Shay with Shannon Sharpe. But then you also saw her on Fox News with Bret Bear. I feel like she did. She tried to do it all. Trump was exclusively with the podcast. But I think that what we fail to realize is Trump has been campaigning for a decade.
- [29:01]
Kara Swisher
Yep. Well done.
- [29:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
And prior to that, he's just been a big star since the 80s, so he doesn't have to necessarily do the mainstream press, but he still does because he still taps in to Fox News. He still taps into conservative talk radio. So it's not like he wasn't doing both as well. And I think that's what we. That's what we're gonna see moving forward. You just gotta find people who know how to do a healthy balance of both. Like I take my radio show, for example, the Breakfast Club. We do broadcast every morning on terrestrial radio. We have 8 million monthly listeners. We're in 104 markets, if you're just listening on the radio. But then we take that show and put it out as a daily podcast, and that show goes out on YouTube and that show goes out on social media. So you have to meet where they are. So in the future, that's what you're gonna see. You're just gonna see people, more people meeting folks where they are. You can't be a presidential candidate and have, you know, a bunch of people telling you, just go to the View, just go do Stephen Colbert, just go do Fox News, which for whatever that was a reach for them. I thought they should have been doing way more Fox News, honestly. But I think you're gonna see people mixing it up and I think that's the best way to do it.
- [30:13]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [30:22]
Sponsor Announcer
Support for this episode comes from sas how is AI affecting how you learn, work and socialize? And what do you need to know to make responsible use of it as.
- [30:31]
Kara Swisher
A business leader, worker and human in the world? Find out when you listen to Pondering AI, a podcast featuring candidates conversations with.
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Sponsor Announcer
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- [30:55]
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- [33:11]
Kara Swisher
There'S been endless punditry on the Democratic's failure. If you had to like I don't wanna retread old grounds. It's worth getting your thoughts though, cuz you end up having an unintended, as you noted, role in Trump's media strategy. Despite being somewhat of an unofficial surrogate for Harris. You've said that she talks like a politician. I do believe people didn't get to know her as well and he's so well known, so I thought she did pretty well given the situation. Who sounds authentic to you? Do you think anyone would have had a better chance of beating Trump?
- [33:41]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh yeah.
- [33:42]
Kara Swisher
Such as?
- [33:43]
Charlamagne Tha God
Well, I want to say I think that the VP showed a lot of flashes of her authentic self while she was running. You know, I just think, you know, people didn't see it enough. But I think there's a lot of people, I think Gretchen Whitmer, Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Big Gretch, you know what I'm saying? If you read her book, which I have upstairs, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's a quick read. And the thing that she starts the book off letting you know is she likes dirty humor.
- [34:16]
Kara Swisher
She does.
- [34:17]
Charlamagne Tha God
And you hear it throughout the book. And if you've ever sat down and interviewed with her, like she's just, it's just, she's just kicking it like, you know, she's clearly the governor, but you can just tell like there's a various authenticness about her that's just, that's just, that's just very relatable. I think, I think Governor Shapiro too, I think he's very polished. And you know, we make the joke that he's Baruch Obama, but it's like, but he's still like there's an authenticness to him. I think Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, I think Governor West Moore. I think Governor West Moore to a certain extent. I like Wes too But I think that there's a lot of people who really do speak the language of the people. And I think Democrats cannot be afraid to do that moving forward. I'm not a fan of Gavin Newsom, but I'm a fan of his Scratch. Oh, one more. Secretary Pete, too. I think Secretary Pete. And he's been one thing I give Secretary Pete a lot of credit for. Secretary Pete has never stopped coming to Breakfast Club. He comes to Breakfast Club when it's not election season.
- [35:25]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [35:26]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I think that's something that the audience likes. They're like, okay, this person isn't just coming around when they're trying to get us to vote for him. You know, he's coming around because he really cares that we care about what they're doing. But back to Gavin Newsom. I'm not a fan of him. I'm not a fan of any politician. But I like his media strategy. I like that he goes on Fox News. I like that he has a podcast with Marshawn lynch right now. Because I think those are the things that help a person build an audience outside of the bubble of the Democratic Party.
- [36:01]
Kara Swisher
You're almost like a boxer. You gotta get out there. He called me when he was doing this. I said, just get out there and start talking.
- [36:06]
Charlamagne Tha God
That's it.
- [36:06]
Kara Swisher
And if you stay, stupid things. One of the. I like Vice President Harris a lot. And I've known her since she was a district attorney. And I never thought she genuinely got out there in the way she should, in the way I happen to know her. Cause she's very funny and other things. And I think it's hard for her to do that. She's a cautious person. So do Democrats have to take more risks? I think Donald takes risks like crazy. He took a risk on Musk. He takes a risk even when he says shitty things. That's a risk. Right. But there's no. It's very clear who he is. That's the thing.
- [36:37]
Charlamagne Tha God
I've said this for years. The language of politics is dead because Donald Trump killed it. And so when you have these people who have the experience, who have the intelligence to articulate themselves in great ways, just go out there and trust yourself to do it. Like you said, I've spent personal time with the vice president. I love hearing her laugh. I genuinely love hearing her laugh. Because she is a person that likes to laugh. Right? So it's like, you don't have to be all buttoned up anymore. That's not the world we live in. And we live in a world where people sniff that out. They know you're being a politician. They know that you may not necessarily believe what's coming out of your mouth, but you're saying it because that's what you sat around with your team and that's what y'all came up with to say, like, no, like, just go out there and have a real authentic conversation. You know, one thing about the vice president that I think that hindered her a lot. She is like the Incredible Hulk. She is at her best when she's angry.
- [37:47]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, but she can't be. She said it to me. She can't be angry at her.
- [37:51]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'm not allowed to because she's a woman and she's a black woman, and it's the whole angry black woman stereotype. But, man, was this year or the last couple of years not the time for women to be furious, Right. Roe v. Wade was overturned. Women's reproductive rights are under attack. All of these old men are trying to tell women what to do with their bodies. If there was ever a time for women to be furious publicly, now was the time. And everybody would have understood. And if they didn't, fuck them.
- [38:21]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's true. She did. Joyful warrior. I don't think there's any such thing, in my opinion. So one of the things, as you said, you were, you were an effective spokeswoman for the Trump campaign. They used a clip from the breakfast clubs in one of their ads. Let's hear it so people remember it, and I'd love to get your reaction to it.
- [38:38]
Charlamagne Tha God
Kamala supports taxpayer funded sex changes for.
- [38:41]
Kara Swisher
Prisoners, surgery for prisoners for prisoners. Every transgender inmate in the prison system would have access.
- [38:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
Hell no. I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that. Kamala supports transgender sex change in jail with our money. Kamala even supports letting biological men compete against our girls in their sports. Kamala is for they them. President Trump is for you.
- [39:05]
Kara Swisher
I'm Donald J. Trump and I approve this message. This ad was everywhere you filed, just to be clear, a cease and desist. But it didn't stop them from using it and making it one of the centerpieces of their closing messages. And you and Andrew discussed it on Brilliant Idiots. Talk a little bit about what happened.
- [39:23]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, I mean, what happened was I was reacting to the commercial, right? Because that commercial was. There was a commercial that was just like that before. There was myself and my co host, DJ Envy in it. And so what I was explaining to my listeners was what I saw that weekend. I was like, yo, did y'all See that commercial that came on during the football game that said Kamala Harris wants to support, you know, whatever with your taxpayer dollars. I was repeating what I saw in the commercial, right? And then I was like, yo, if you're sitting there watching that, when you sitting back watching football, the first thing you gonna think is, hell, no, I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that. Like, so it wasn't like we were saying, Kamala Harris supports gender reassignment surgery or wants to use your taxpayer dollars for gender reassignment surgery for mh or.
- [40:09]
Kara Swisher
Like Trump said, you go to high school one day and you come back a woman like, you know, that ridiculous, man.
- [40:14]
Charlamagne Tha God
They took it and they ran with it. And, you know, from what they said, it was the most impactful. It was commercial of his campaign.
- [40:21]
Kara Swisher
How do you feel about that?
- [40:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
Ooh, it's not a good feeling. It's one of those things where, like, you get around people and you think that they're whispering about you. That's the guy who cost Kamala Harris her campaign. Like, that's literally what people are saying. Even though that's not. I don't. That's not true. I don't. Like, there's no one thing that cost her. And also, you know, I support the vice president not just as a elected official. Like, she's somebody I really do consider a friend. Like, you know, I know her and her sister Maya. I met Maya back in 2015 when she was working with Hillary Clinton. And then I met the vice president in 2018. That's the first time I had her on Breakfast Club. And she was still a senator. So she's somebody that I. Not just interview, I have conversations with. And the thing that really bothers me the most about the commercial is they didn't do anything to combat it.
- [41:13]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [41:14]
Charlamagne Tha God
And to me, it wasn't a hard thing to combat because that piece of legislation was also legislation under Donald Trump. You know where I learned that from? From the vice president. And I learned that from other people who started writing the New York Times, did a great article about it, you know, about that ad he ran. But also how that was a piece of legislation under him. If I was the Harris campaign, I would have ran the same commercial with the same rhetoric. It would have just said, donald Trump wants to use your taxpayer dollars for gender reassignment surgery for inmates. Like, cause confusion in the marketplace.
- [41:47]
Kara Swisher
Cause it makes you seem anti trans. That's for sure.
- [41:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
I can see that. But I would've ran the same commercial. I would've literally I would have ran the same commercial. I would've just flipped it on Donald Trump if I was them. But they didn't do anything. Like, I even asked her about it when she called into the Breakfast Club, because when I interviewed her in Detroit, we were supposed to have a conversation about it, but then decided not to because I guess it was still kind of early, and people didn't realize how big that commercial would end up being.
- [42:18]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [42:19]
Charlamagne Tha God
And so when she called in the Breakfast Club, I asked her about it, and she just was, like, shrugging it off as just misinformation, you know? But I think that that was a. That was a mistake. It should have been really combated.
- [42:29]
Kara Swisher
I'm not sure anyone would believe. You know, it's an easy thing to twist, given people's feelings on this issue are more emotional than logical.
- [42:38]
Charlamagne Tha God
I mean, that is very true. But she answered it flawlessly on Fox with Brent Baer. But it's like, once again, there was nobody to amplify that and say it over and over and over and over and over.
- [42:49]
Kara Swisher
So when you think about that, when you think about your impact, then is that, you know, do you worry about you? We talked a little bit about Cancel Culture and comics. I don't think they're quite as canceled as you think. I think sometimes they overdo it. Right. Like, for example, you make a ton of gay jokes on the pod, and I love comedy. There isn't a lesbian joke you can offend me with. I don't believe maybe. I doubt it. I like them. But do you worry, for example, about that, about doing that anymore? Do you think you're hindered? You know, everybody has a different take on it.
- [43:24]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah. I make gay jokes for two reasons. Number one, cause people. I like people, for whatever reason, love to say I'm gay.
- [43:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [43:33]
Charlamagne Tha God
Which is, you know, I've heard that. Yeah. So I do that. I do that just to really mess with them. But also, man, I like to make men uncomfortable. Because if you're so secure in your sexuality, why does certain conversations make you uncomfortable? Right. Why do certain jokes make you uncomfortable? Like, you know, we like to do pause in our community. Right? Like pause. Like, pause. If somebody says something that is considered gay, you say pause. But it's like. It's like. It's like after a while, it's like, all right, I get it. But some of the pauses are ridiculous. It's like if I drink. If I'm drinking water and I take a sip, somebody goes pause. It's like, all right, come on, knock it Off. So a lot of times I do it just to really make. I do it to make people feel uncomfortable.
- [44:23]
Kara Swisher
Do you think there are some things that are finally, let's move along. Right. You certainly. I was watching, of all things, Three's Company. Remember that show a million years ago?
- [44:33]
Charlamagne Tha God
I do. Not only do I remember that show, I have a very, very, very, very fond memory of that show.
- [44:40]
Kara Swisher
Don't go watch it again then. Cause you won't. When you watch it, you're like, whoa, date rape is good, right? Like, I know it sounds crazy.
- [44:48]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh, that was the whole 80s, though.
- [44:49]
Kara Swisher
That was the 80s, right, I get it. But now, I thought it was funny at the time, too. And then when I went back, I'm like, yeah, maybe not. Maybe that wasn't so cool. But I don't know what is, because we know more or whatever. Do you think things lose their funniness or do you think there is too much of a. You should be able to joke about anything. I know the bro comics think you should be able to joke about anything. I'm using the word bro broadly.
- [45:15]
Charlamagne Tha God
I think there's an Overton window. And here's the thing about all of those comics. All of those comics got a line. They got personal things that they don't want to joke about. They act tough with everybody else, but every single one of them has something that will push a button in them to make them be like, all right, that's enough. Right. But, you know, like, the problem is they don't have that empathy with other people sometime.
- [45:40]
Kara Swisher
Right? And what do you worry about that if, say, a young gay person listens to your podcast and hears the jokes? Do you think about it or not?
- [45:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yes, because my intention is never to offend. You know, I would hope that. I would hope people are laughing with us, and I hope we're all laughing with each other. You know, if one of my gay friends or somebody gay was to come to me and tell me, hey, man, you know, I didn't like when you said X, Y and Z or that offended me. I'm not going to be like, oh, man, f you. It was just a joke. I'm going to listen to the person and I'm going to listen to the person, and I'm going to take into consideration, you know, what that person said. And I'm going to definitely think about that the next time I'll tell you. I was gonna say my Three's Company thing, but you know what? I keep it to myself.
- [46:24]
Kara Swisher
No, go ahead.
- [46:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
My father, who is an old Sovereign man. And my cousin Rel, who was another old sovereign man. Him and my father grew up together. I remember when Jack Tripper, God bless the dead. I remember when he passed away.
- [46:40]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [46:41]
Charlamagne Tha God
And I remember just sitting around my daddy's shock. And my daddy has what we call, like a little juke joint in the South, Right. So, you know, that's where they sell their beer and everything else, play pool. And we just sitting in there. And I remember it came across the news that he died. And I remember my cousin saying to my dad, ah, man, I'm glad he. I'm glad he gone. He sat in that house with them two women all them years and didn't. Didn't sleep with either one of them. And I'm like, it was a TV show, first of all.
- [47:06]
Kara Swisher
I know that's true.
- [47:08]
Charlamagne Tha God
But I just remember that. And that always. It always sticks out in my mind. Cause it always makes me realize why I have the type of humor that I have. Cause I grew up around guys like that.
- [47:20]
Kara Swisher
What is your line?
- [47:21]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh, I got a lot of lines. I mean.
- [47:23]
Kara Swisher
No, but what's the thing that offends you? That would be like. That's not funny. Don't you dare say that kind of thing.
- [47:29]
Charlamagne Tha God
What would offend me? That's not funny. I don't think that. Hmm. I think when people get. I'm just speaking. I think when people get killed and like, really gruesome, brutal ways, like, you know, over the years, I've heard some really bad jokes about stuff like that. And what I've always tried to tell comics is you do realize that person has a family, right?
- [47:59]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [48:00]
Charlamagne Tha God
So if that person's family hears this joke and decides to run up on you and beat your ass, you kind of earned it. Yeah. So it's like stuff like that. Like, you know, you got. You gotta think about people that are here. I think it's fair game to joke on anybody that's still here to defend themselves.
- [48:20]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [48:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
You know, if you're not here to defend yourself, you know, I don't think it's that. That's right.
- [48:29]
Kara Swisher
I think it would be my kids. Anything about my kids. I don't like a. I don't like a joke or about kids. A kid's in danger.
- [48:36]
Charlamagne Tha God
I agree with that. But that's the reason I don't showcase my kids. Like, I really don't know why people do that. I mean, I don't know why people put their kids on social media. Like, social media is, like the most toxic place ever. And that's why I say I'm here to defend myself. You're here to defend yourself. Kids are kids. Like, they're not asking for any of this. Like, so why put them online and then open them up to all type of scrutiny?
- [49:00]
Kara Swisher
My son calls me a Sharon. I have to stop. I stopped.
- [49:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh. Cause you shared too much.
- [49:04]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, a Sharon. I took him all he asked.
- [49:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
People are cruel. Like, I mean, so I don't know why folks would even. Yeah, I don't know why folks would showcase that.
- [49:12]
Kara Swisher
So you're not on social media at all or you are?
- [49:15]
Charlamagne Tha God
I'm on Instagram.
- [49:16]
Kara Swisher
You're on Instagram. You're on Instagram. So you're not on X? I guess you're not on X. Oh, no.
- [49:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
I got off x back in 2018. 2019.
- [49:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Oh, pre Elon.
- [49:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, I just don't feel like that's the way. I don't feel like your brain. I don't feel like your brain is wired to receive all of those opinions at once.
- [49:34]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [49:34]
Charlamagne Tha God
Like, I don't care that much about the opinions of other people to want to take them in daily. And I think we're all in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones and Twitter and X, or whatever you call it, plays a big, big role in that.
- [49:49]
Kara Swisher
It does. I'm off of it too. I had a million and a half followers and I came off. I just don't. Well, Elon also wants to kill me, but that's a different story. We'll be back in a minute.
- [50:06]
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Kara Swisher
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- [52:25]
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Fox creative this is advertiser content from Zell. When you picture an online scammer, what do you see?
- [52:35]
Ian Mitchell
For the longest time, we have these images of somebody sitting crouched over their computer with a hoodie on, just kind of typing away in the middle of the night. And honestly, that's not what it is anymore.
- [52:44]
Sponsor Announcer
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- [52:59]
Ian Mitchell
It's mind blowing to see the kind of infrastructure that's been built to facilitate scamming at scale. There are hundreds, if not thousands of scam centers all around the world. These are very savvy business people. These are organized criminal rings. And so once we understand the magnitude problem, we can protect people better.
- [53:21]
Sponsor Announcer
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- [53:34]
Ian Mitchell
We need to have those awkward conversations around. What do you do if you have text messages? You don't recognize. What do you do if you start getting asked to send information that's more sensitive? Even my own father fell victim to a, thank goodness, a smaller dollar scam. But he fell victim. And we have these conversations all the time. So we are all at risk and we all need to work together to protect each other.
- [53:57]
Sponsor Announcer
Learn more about how to protect yourself@vox.com Zelle and when using digital payment platforms, remember to only send money to people you know and trust.
- [54:09]
Kara Swisher
You founded the Black Effect Podcast Network in partnership with Iheart about four years ago during the podcast. Since then, some podcasts like this one have done very well, but overall ad revenue has slowed, although not for the big ones, that's for sure. So how is the business of Black Effect Network going and how do you look at its prospects?
- [54:28]
Charlamagne Tha God
Business at Black Effect is booming because, you know, what you said is true. Like, you know, the podcast market is very oversaturated, but there are some podcasts and some networks that do very, very well. And you just have these corporations who want to put their money, you know, on short beta for the most part. So they're gonna go where the audience is like, you know, Black Effect is. I think we're at a billion downloads, you know, total, with the 30 podcasts that we have.
- [54:52]
Kara Swisher
30 podcasts. So you just wanna make more of them, which are the top ones.
- [54:56]
Charlamagne Tha God
Breakfast Club is a daily podcast is the top one. But then all the Smoke with Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson. Drink champs with Norrie. 85 South show with D.C. young, fly Chico Bean and Carlos Miller. Horrible decisions with Mandy and Weezy. Like Sarah Jake Roberts. We got some really good ones that we've partnered with.
- [55:16]
Kara Swisher
What's the through line of what you're creating? What would you say if you describe it?
- [55:20]
Charlamagne Tha God
Amplifying black voices and letting people know that black people are not monolithic. Like, there's not one. There's not one train of thought that exists in the black community. Like, there's a lot of diversity of thought. Like, every single one of those podcasts I named are completely different. Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, their Sports 85 south show is comedy. Sarah Jake Roberts is a pastor, right? She's Bishop T.D. jake's daughter. We got people like Debbie Brown on our pod on Black Effect that we're partnered with, and she's one of the most renowned mental wealth, mental health, mindfulness experts in the country. So it's like, you know, just showing people that black people aren't monolithic and we have a diversity of thought. So, you know, I'M not telling you that you can come to Black affairs and know exactly what's going on in the black community, but you can get really close because of all the diversity of thought.
- [56:11]
Kara Swisher
Right. And you're mixing information and entertainment and something you said several times, which is authenticity or genuineness. Right. Do you think as these get infused with politics, how do you get people to get good journalistic news sources if that's where they're getting their information?
- [56:29]
Charlamagne Tha God
I think you gotta have good journalists. I think that's where it starts. It starts with, who are the good journalists and pointing them in the right direction. For me, I watch everything. I watch cnn, I watch Fox News, I watch msnbc. I can point to different journalists on those networks, different personalities, and say, that's somebody I listen to. That's somebody I trust. I also watch a lot of YouTube. I think the Young Turks Network is fantastic. I think what they do on the Young Turks Network is incredible.
- [56:59]
Kara Swisher
Like, they've been around a while, too.
- [57:01]
Charlamagne Tha God
And they've been around a long time, and I think that they're gonna end up. They're gonna be a real major player, you know, in the future, just because of the fact that they've been around so long. And I'm watching everybody try to get into that space now. Everybody's gonna be trying to run to create infrastructure like they have, but they've already got it. So I think they're going to really, really be major players over the next.
- [57:23]
Kara Swisher
I think it's the left's Joe Rogan, but I don't think there's any such thing.
- [57:27]
Charlamagne Tha God
Can we talk about that?
- [57:28]
Kara Swisher
Yes, please.
- [57:29]
Charlamagne Tha God
I hate that left Joe Rogan rhetoric.
- [57:32]
Kara Swisher
I do, too. I hate it.
- [57:33]
Charlamagne Tha God
How about just get some balls and go on Joe Rogan?
- [57:36]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Or just create a show that's not compared to something. Right. Like.
- [57:41]
Charlamagne Tha God
Or create a show that's not compared to something. But these shows exist. Like, go on Joe Rogan. Like, go on Joe Rogan. Have the conversation. You think Gretchen Whitman wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan?
- [57:50]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [57:50]
Charlamagne Tha God
You think Governor Josh Shapiro wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan? You think the Vice President wouldn't have been great on Joe Rogan? Like, just go on Joe Rogan and kick it with Joe. Have the conversation.
- [57:59]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. He never has me on because he's scared of me. I heard. That's what I heard.
- [58:02]
Charlamagne Tha God
You think so?
- [58:03]
Kara Swisher
I don't know.
- [58:03]
Charlamagne Tha God
No. You know, I remember at Andrew's wedding.
- [58:07]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [58:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
When I was at Andrew Schultz's wedding two years ago, it was the Day after I had Vice President Kamala Harris on my TV show. And that's when I was asking her, who's the real president? Joe Manchin or Joe Biden? And Rogan was there. And Rogan said to me, Rogan goes, how do they sitting down with you when they have these moments and these gaffes? Right. But they won't ever come sit with me.
- [58:30]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- [58:31]
Charlamagne Tha God
So it's not like he doesn't want to have the conversation with them.
- [58:34]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I don't know. You've written extensively about your struggles with depression anxiety in your books and how therapy and meditation helped you heal. And you're a mental health advocate. You hosted a mental health expo for the fourth time. But in your book, you write that some people see you as a fake mental health advocate. That's not like a fake HHS head like Robert Kennedy. I don't care. I'm teasing. You've been very open about your struggles and how awful therapy has been. I'd love to understand how do you look at that now? And has what's happening now in our country affected your mental health? And any advice you would have for anyone who's feeling badly about it.
- [59:13]
Charlamagne Tha God
Oh, man, I struggle every single day. Like, it is an absolute process. Like you have to wake up every day and go see, seek out joy. Like you have to make sure that you go out there and find reasons to be happy. When I say that we're all in mentally abusive, verbally abusive relationships with our phones, I truly mean that. Because I can wake up in the morning like I do every day, say my prayers, go get ready for work, read out of my affirmation books, get in my car, put on some 90s R&B or a podcast or just something to stimulate my mind or an audio book. As soon as I get on there radio and turn that phone on and got a log into the world immediately. Whatever I built up in those first couple of hours is challenged. Literally. It's literally challenged. Whatever joy I built up in those first couple of hours is challenged immediately. But that's what therapy is for. That's what meditation is for. That's what, you know, going outside and taking your shoes off and walking in the grass and doing grounding is for. That's what hugs from your significant other are for. That's what hugs from your kids are for. That's what conversations with your family and friends and people that you love are for. That's what writing is for. That's what journaling is for. That's what whatever artistic Expression, you know, you have that you use to, you know, get out whatever emotions you're feeling in the time. That's what all of that stuff is for.
- [60:38]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, you do realize. You do realize you're a white San Francisco lesbian. But go ahead, keep. I'm a straight white man, but go ahead, move along.
- [60:49]
Charlamagne Tha God
But that's why I do things like the Mental Wealth Expo, and that's why I do advocate for mental health so much. Because I just wanna show people that there's resources and tools, and I don't know anybody who's got it all together. I don't know one person who's got it all together. That's what you have these tools and these resources for. And it's like, I look like this right now. Cause I just finished working out, right? Like, me and my wife, we got a trainer. We work out three times a week. Every day I'm on my bike. I get on that stationary bike and I do 45 minutes every day. 250 calories gotta get burned every day. That's the same thing when you're dealing with any mental or emotional health issues. Like, it's a everyday thing.
- [61:34]
Kara Swisher
So how does our country get back to that, like, because there really is a mental health crisis for teens on these phones. I have four kids. Most of them, my older ones don't use their phones at all. They got off of them in a lot of ways because they made him feel bad. And my oldest son said that to me. What do you advocate then? Because people are in a state right now after this election with the social media, whether you like Elon Musk or not, he won't the fuck get out of your face. Everyone is in your face all the time. What would you say to people right now, what they should do?
- [62:07]
Charlamagne Tha God
I would say that we are in the United States of Anxiety. And you should do all of those things that I just mentioned. Because we have to have tools nowadays to keep ourselves mentally healthy. As far as social media is concerned. You know, I gotta salute guys like Frank McCourt. I don't know if you've heard of Frank McCourt.
- [62:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I do. I know Frank well.
- [62:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
Yeah, Frank's trying to buy, you know, TikTok because he just wants to make social media a healthier place. And, you know, when you listen to him talk, he's doing it because he's thinking about the future of our kids. And he's absolutely right. And it's like, you gotta have healthier options. Like, we don't have any healthier options. When it comes to social media right now, like, none. Like, there's no healthier option. Like, you have your Facebook, you have your Instagram, you have your TikTok, you have your Twitter. But all of these spaces are the wild, wild west. You can curate, you know, I'm on Instagram because you can curate it a certain way. You can mute certain words and, you know, you don't have to follow certain people, which is great. But you do need healthier options. So, you know, we need more guys like Frank McCourt who have the money and who have the resources and who aren't just trying to. To capitalize off people's time and capitalize off people's attention. Like, he's actually trying to use these platforms to better people.
- [63:20]
Kara Swisher
Or their anger.
- [63:22]
Charlamagne Tha God
Or their anger.
- [63:22]
Kara Swisher
I always say enragement equals engagement.
- [63:25]
Charlamagne Tha God
That is a fact. So, yeah, I just think that we just all gotta find these different tools that we have to make ourselves more mentally healthy. And we need more people like Frank McCourt trying to buy social media platforms to make them healthier space.
- [63:40]
Kara Swisher
Well, the business plans don't call for that. They call for constant attention deficit disorder, I think, on people's part. Anyway, this has been fantastic. I appreciate it. This has been a wonderful discussion. And keep doing what you're doing.
- [63:53]
Charlamagne Tha God
I appreciate you. Thank you very much for having me.
- [63:57]
Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro Roussel, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney and Kailyn Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Claire Hyman. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a San Francisco lesbian. Like Charlamagne. If not, too bad for you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Lingo by Abbott. Talking about healthy habits is a lot easier than actually implementing them. The key is finding out what works for you and your body. That's where lingo comes in. It's a new biowearable that tracks your glucose in real time. It gives you personal insights and recommendations that can help you learn to eat in the way that works for you. What I like about Lingo is the ability to track a lot of different things in your day, whether it's the stress of dropping off your kid or putting too much sugar in your coffee, which is I do every day and I'm going to continue to do it in any cases. Knowing about the effect is really important and understanding it in a discreet, water resistant way that lasts two weeks and then is available on an app is really helpful so you can really see things in real time. So don't just eat right. Eat what's right for you with Lingo. The Lingo Glucose System is for users 18 years of age or older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases including diabetes. For more information please visit hello lingo.com.
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Charlamagne Tha God
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Charlamagne Tha God
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