On with Kara Swisher

Episode: Defending Trump’s ‘Enemies’ with Attorney Abbe Lowell
Date: February 9, 2026
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Abbe Lowell (defense attorney)
Special Guest Question: Jodi Kantor (NYT investigative reporter)

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation with Abbe Lowell, a high-profile Washington defense attorney renowned for representing figures targeted by the Trump administration. Lowell and Swisher discuss the chilling environment for lawyers and journalists as the Trump administration openly uses government power for retribution, examines Lowell's recent and ongoing cases (Don Lemon, Letitia James, Lisa Cook), and dig into the crumbling insulation traditionally provided by law, courts, and the First Amendment. Throughout, Swisher and Lowell reflect on the transformation of American legal, political, and journalistic institutions, threats to democracy, and whether the current pushback will be enough.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Big Law Crisis: Why Major Firms Won’t Fight Trump (03:31–11:53)

• Corporate Reticence and Big Firm Acquiescence
  • Big firms increasingly put bottom-line above principle, unwilling to risk government ire for fear of jeopardizing lucrative client business subject to regulatory approval.
  • Abbe Lowell (04:09):

    "Law firms stopped being professions and started being businesses. And that's not the way it should have been."

  • Lowell left Winston & Strawn after his firm declined cases that would challenge the Trump administration – initially regarding FBI agents' anonymity, then USAID workers, and finally Letitia James, which was the “last straw.”
• Broader Impact
  • The breakdown of traditional legal ethos: pro bono efforts for nonprofits and community agencies evaporate as firms retreat from contentious or controversial representation.
  • Lowell (10:45):

    "That was a lack of leadership across the board of lawyers in America. I understand it, but I don't agree with it."

2. Case Study: The Arrest of Don Lemon (11:53–27:45)

• Timeline and Details of the Case
  • Don Lemon, veteran journalist, was arrested in LA after covering a protest in Minneapolis at a church led by an ICE official.
  • Don Lemon's arrest was by design a public spectacle:
    • He was not a flight risk and had offered to surrender, but was arrested late at night to maximize humiliation and disruption.
    • Lowell (15:08):

      "What we know about this administration is show first, substance second, if at all."

• Administration Boasting and the Function of Fear
  • Attorney General Pam Bondi publicly took credit, and the White House celebrated on social media, escalating the intimidation campaign against both journalists and protestors.
  • Lowell emphasized the unprecedented and deliberate nature of these attacks, noting the historical role of lawyers and journalists as vital checks on power.
  • Lowell (17:32):

    "When this administration was planning their return, ... their first attack ... was to go after the lawyers and to go after the journalists."

• Prosecutorial Irregularities
  • Both a magistrate judge and appeals court refused to issue warrants, but the administration used a grand jury—the “ham sandwich” standard—to secure charges.
  • Selective prosecution is clear, with similar protests by right-wing figures ignored by the DOJ.
  • Lowell (21:13):

    "This is the definition of selective prosecution for a political purpose."

• Broader Impact on Press Freedom
  • Even narrow or failed prosecutions create chilling effects, disrupt careers, and intimidate would-be dissenters.
  • Lowell (26:10):

    "They have said, we don't care if we win our cases, we're going to name and shame. ... That is itself unprecedented."

3. Defending “Targeted” Clients: Letitia James, Lisa Cook, Security-Cleared Officials (27:45–45:15)

• Categories of Clients
  • Journalists, fired public servants, those with revoked clearances, figures facing personal vendettas.
• Lisa Cook’s Federal Reserve Case (32:07–35:41)
  • Trump invoked Article II power and an intentionally dubious criminal referral to try to fire Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook; Supreme Court appears poised to protect her, but may also expand presidential removal power for other agencies.
  • Lowell (34:17):

    "He has said, like Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland, that 'for cause' means whatever I say it means whenever I say it means."

• Whistleblowers and Security Clearance Retaliation (41:23–43:21)
  • Revoking clearances as a tool of intimidation (Mark Zaid, Miles Taylor) is unique, with judges issuing injunctions but cases expected to reach the Supreme Court.
• Letitia James and the Perpetual Threat (43:31–45:15)
  • Administration repeatedly launches new, baseless investigations for the sake of harassment:
    • Lowell (43:56):

      "If you don't care if you win and if you keep investigating somebody over and over again ... it's wearing."

4. The Judiciary: New Dynamics & Prognosis (35:41–41:23)

• Jodi Kantor’s Question:
  • How have judges and judicial appointments changed?
• Lowell’s Assessment:
  • Political litmus tests pervade all levels, not just SCOTUS; trial court experience is rare, benches draw more from government (especially prosecutors) due to low public service salaries, and the judiciary is overall more conservative.
  • Nevertheless, some Trump and GOP-appointed judges have issued strong anti-Trump rulings, pushing back on executive overreach.
  • Lowell (39:34):

    "Some of the most vociferous of the opinions reigning him in have come from people that were appointed ... by even him in his first term."

• Reforms Needed:
  • End lifetime appointments or limit terms, improve pay for judges to attract broader talent, restore legal professionalism and a sense of mission beyond commerce.

5. The Administration’s Broader Strategy (45:15–47:43)

• Not mere whim; deliberate erosion
  • The Trump circle’s project is to “eradicate” institutional resistance—destroying the Republican Party as an internal check, politicizing courts, weakening the press and bar, dismantling the rule of law.
  • Lowell (45:30):

    "There is a thread. The thread looks like Pre World War II Italy ... This is not random."

• Historical Parallels
  • Methods echo authoritarian regimes: criminalizing dissent, institutionalizing loyalty, targeting legal and media infrastructures.

6. Looming Legal Battles and Systemic Risks (51:21–59:43)

• Trump’s Lawsuits Against the Government (IRS, DOJ)
  • Raises the paradox of the president suing the government he runs, with the danger of “suing himself” and settling with public money.
  • Lowell (51:57):

    "This would be like ... if I was the person who slipped on my own sidewalk and I was going to sue myself ... and I would make a deal with my left hand taking money out of my pocket and giving it to my right hand from my other pocket."

• Election Interference and Federal Overreach
  • Raids on voting records and talk of nationalizing elections serve to intimidate local officials and suggest willingness to circumvent constitutional controls.
  • Local officials must be legally educated, fiercely defend their prerogatives, and trust courts as the last line of defense.
• Moving from Defense to Offense
  • Lowell’s firm is seeking proactive, offensive legal strategies (e.g., declaratory judgments for state officials, use of Federal Tort Claims Act) to preempt administrative abuses rather than merely react.
  • Lowell (56:46):

    "We have spent many weeks talking about offensive litigation instead of being completely defensive. ... Maybe there's one fewer mole than there was the day before."

7. Limited Presidential Immunity and the Role of State/Local Actors (58:57–59:43)

• Federal immunity is extensive, but not absolute
  • Presidential pardons and federal immunities cannot block state-level civil and criminal accountability. State attorneys general and local prosecutors are vital counterweights.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Legal Profession's Retreat
  • "Law firms stopped being professions and started being businesses. And that's not the way it should have been." — Abbe Lowell (04:09)
• On Chilling Press Freedom
  • "They have said, we don't care if we win our cases, we're going to name and shame. We're going to make it hard for people. ... That is itself unprecedented." — Lowell (26:10)
• On Unprecedented Judicial Pushback
  • "Some of the most vociferous of the opinions reigning him in have come from people that were appointed, by the way, by even him in his first term." — Lowell (39:34)
• On Coordinated Authoritarian Overreach
  • "There is a thread. The thread looks like Pre World War II Italy ... This is not random." — Lowell (45:30)
• On the Paradox of Trump Suing the Government
  • "This would be like ... if I was the person who slipped on my own sidewalk and I was going to sue myself ... and I would make a deal with my left hand taking money out of my pocket and giving it to my right hand from my other pocket." — Lowell (51:57)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:31–11:53 — Big law’s retreat from defending Trump’s opponents; motives and consequences.
• 11:53–27:45 — The Don Lemon case: protest, arrest, governmental showmanship, legal and psychological impact.
• 32:07–35:41 — Lisa Cook’s firing and the Supreme Court’s view on Article II power.
• 35:47–41:23 — Judicial appointment transformations and institutional effects (Q&A with Jodi Kantor).
• 41:23–43:21 — The security clearance cases and their significance.
• 43:31–45:15 — Repeated investigations into Letitia James and the psychology of administrative harassment.
• 45:15–47:43 — Trump’s strategy: not chaos but deliberate institutional erosion.
• 51:21–52:52 — Trump’s suits against the government: legal and ethical paradoxes.
• 52:52–56:20 — Raids on voting records, election interference, and barriers for federal overreach.
• 56:46–58:35 — Offensive litigation and future defensive strategies.

Final Notes

• The episode delivers a vivid, insider perspective on the erosion of legal and journalistic independence in the U.S. today—but also charts the spirited, if embattled, resistance.
• Both host and guest maintain a tone that balances outrage, urgency, dark humor, and resolve.
• The conversation concludes with a call to action for independent journalists and attorneys: flooding the zone is possible, and vital.
  • Lowell (60:01):

    "There are so many of us out there now. ... There are lots of people that are now flooding the zone to push back against the abuse of power."

For anyone seeking a clear, detailed understanding of how legal and democratic guardrails are being tested—and defended—in the Trump era, this episode is indispensable listening.