From The Office to SNAFU: Ed Helms on History, Politics & Comedy

Summary

Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher – "From The Office to SNAFU: Ed Helms on History, Politics & Comedy"

Release Date: April 28, 2025

In this engaging episode of "On with Kara Swisher," award-winning journalist Kara Swisher sits down with actor and comedian Ed Helms to explore his multifaceted career, his new book "SNAFU: A Definitive Guide to History's Greatest Screw-ups," and his deep involvement in political activism. The conversation seamlessly weaves through themes of history, politics, media influence, and the evolving entertainment industry, providing listeners with a rich tapestry of insights and reflections.

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1. Introduction to Ed Helms and His Ventures

Kara Swisher opens the episode by highlighting Ed Helms' diverse career—from his early days on "The Daily Show" and his iconic role as Andy Bernard on "The Office," to his portrayal of Stu in "The Hangover" trilogy. She also introduces his latest endeavors: the book "SNAFU" and the accompanying podcast. Swisher praises Helms for his cerebral and heartfelt approach to comedy, setting the stage for a deep dive into his inspirations and motivations.

Notable Quote:

"I'm excited to talk to him. I always think he's such a cerebral and interesting comedian and plays a variety of characters incredibly well. All of them with a heart." – Kara Swisher [00:14]

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2. Ed Helms' Political Activism

Helms discusses his active role in the political landscape, particularly his support for the Harris-Waltz ticket in Reno and Scranton. He shares that his involvement stems from a genuine belief in the importance of the moment and his upbringing in a politically engaged household.

Notable Quote:

"I grew up in a very politically engaged home, and so I've always been a little bit of a politics junkie and a news junkie." – Ed Helms [04:58]

Swisher probes into Helms' motivations, questioning the efficacy of celebrity involvement in politics. Helms responds by emphasizing his straightforward approach—stepping in when the cause feels critical, rather than overanalyzing the decision.

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3. Advocacy for Ranked Choice Voting

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on ranked choice voting (RCV), an electoral system Helms advocates for through his role on the board of Represent Us, an anti-corruption organization. Swisher highlights the challenges RCV faces, including its rejection in several states and opposition from entrenched political factions.

Notable Quote:

"It's the system that best represents the largest number of voters sentiment." – Ed Helms [07:05]

Helms elaborates on the benefits of RCV, arguing that it tends to elect more reasonable and less extreme candidates by allowing voters to rank their preferences, thus reducing the influence of entrenched minority power.

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4. Media's Role in Political Polarization

Swisher and Helms delve into the media's impact on partisanship and division. Helms critiques mainstream media outlets like CNN and Fox News for their sensationalized coverage, which he believes diminishes the integrity of political messages. He contrasts this with the role of satirical shows like "The Daily Show," which he views as essential in keeping the public entertained and engaged while holding the media accountable.

Notable Quote:

"The mainstream media… is the horse race of election coverage is so sensationalized that it dramatically diminishes the integrity of the message of the candidates." – Ed Helms [11:48]

He also discusses the differing comedic approaches between liberal and conservative late-night TV, highlighting how progressive comedy often employs irony and analysis, whereas conservative shows lean towards fear and ridicule.

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5. Exploring "SNAFU": History's Greatest Screw-ups

Helms introduces his book and podcast, "SNAFU," which examines historical mishaps ranging from government overreach to human arrogance. The conversation touches on specific stories, such as Project Iceworm, a failed military endeavor to build nuclear missile tunnels in Greenland, and the CIA's bizarre schemes involving cyborg cats and surveillance pigeons.

Notable Quote:

"SNAFU is a term. It's actually an acronym that emerged during World War II. It stands for Situation normal, all fucked up." – Ed Helms [14:59]

Helms emphasizes the importance of recounting these stories to provide context for current events, suggesting that understanding past mistakes can guide present and future actions.

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6. Government Overreach and Historical Parallels

The duo examines instances of government overreach, such as the addition of poison to industrial alcohol during Prohibition, leading to thousands of deaths. Helms draws parallels between historical missteps and contemporary issues, expressing concern over intentional harm and institutional chaos.

Notable Quote:

"When you're developing a show or a movie, you're like, well maybe this streamer will like this, but those three won't… There is no really the birthing to tell and that's a little bit scary." – Ed Helms [52:25]

He underscores how such historical events reflect a darker side of governmental intentions, highlighting the enduring relevance of these stories in today's political climate.

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7. Personal Reflections and Overcoming Challenges

Towards the end of the episode, Helms shares a personal anecdote about his struggles with feeling different and the eventual diagnosis of ADHD, which provided clarity and understanding of his past challenges. This candid moment adds depth to the conversation, showcasing Helms' vulnerability and resilience.

Notable Quote:

"I finally read a book called Driven to Distraction, which is one of the original sort of academic texts on the ADD or ADHD phenomenon. And I wept reading that book because there was so much about my life that I saw and understood in this book that was just this epic awakening." – Ed Helms [53:52]

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8. The Evolving Entertainment Industry

Helms and Swisher discuss the dramatic shifts in the entertainment industry, particularly the impact of streaming services like Netflix and Peacock on traditional television models. Helms expresses both confusion and excitement over the new dynamics, noting the challenges of pitching content and the fragmented nature of media consumption.

Notable Quote:

"The simplest answer is, I am confused and a little bit scared of the industry that I have come up in, because the rules that I came up with and these structures that I came up through have been so dramatically altered and dismantled." – Ed Helms [49:14]

He reflects on the necessity of adaptability and entrepreneurial spirit in navigating these changes, highlighting his own ventures into podcasts and independent projects as ways to stay relevant and creative.

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9. Concluding Thoughts and Final Reflections

In the final moments, Helms humorously relates "The Office" to real-world political incompetence, drawing parallels between fictional characters and figures from the Trump administration. The conversation wraps up on a hopeful note as Helms emphasizes the importance of understanding history to foster positive change.

Notable Quote:

"When you have entrenched minority power, as we have in this country, it's very hard to sell someone on ranked choice voting." – Ed Helms [07:05]

Swisher commends Helms for ending the episode with a personal and uplifting story, reinforcing the episode's overarching theme of learning from mistakes to build a better future.

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Key Takeaways

• Ed Helms leverages his platform and diverse talents to engage in meaningful political activism and historical discourse.
• Ranked Choice Voting is presented as a solution to political polarization, albeit facing significant opposition from established interests.
• Media Influence plays a critical role in shaping public perception and political narratives, with satire acting as a necessary counterbalance.
• Understanding History's Mistakes through Helms' "SNAFU" book and podcast offers valuable lessons for contemporary society.
• Entertainment Industry Shifts require adaptability and entrepreneurial approaches to thrive in a fragmented media landscape.
• Personal Resilience underscores the importance of self-awareness and addressing mental health challenges.

This episode serves as a compelling exploration of how historical insights, media dynamics, and personal experiences intersect in the pursuit of a more informed and equitable society.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

This is a long podcast, so you're gonna have to talk a lot.

[Ed Helms]

Oh boy.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Ed Helms. He's an actor and comedian best known for his work as a correspondent on the Daily show in the early and mid aughts, and especially for playing Andy Bernard in the Office and Stu in the Hangover trilogy. You know who Ed Helms is, but he's also the author of a new book called Snafu, A definitive guide to history's greatest Screw ups. It's smart, funny, and full of little known stories about human arrogance, government overreach, and in some cases, plain old stupidity. I'm excited to talk to him. I always think he's such a cerebral and interesting comedian and plays a variety of characters incredibly well. All of them with a heart, which is what I am always attracted to when I'm talking to comedians. And of course, I love talking to comedians. At a time when the Trump administration is trying to sanitize our history, it's good to talk to someone who isn't afraid to get real about the mistakes that are a big part of who we are as Americans and as humans. Our expert question comes from Dr. Lindsey Chervinsky, the Executive Director of the George Washington Presidential Library. So stick around.

[Ed Helms]

This podcast is supported by Google. Hi, I'm Dave, one of the product leads on Google Gemini. We just launched Gemini Canvas. It's my new go to for real time collaboration with Gemini. Write docs, edit code, get feedback, iterate all in one new interactive space from a blank slate to a built out prototype. My favorite part? Ask Gemini to leave feedback and suggestions just like you would with a teammate. Check it out for free at gemini.google.com Growing a business can feel impossible. But with HubSpot's built in AI, you can get more done than ever before. Which means anything's possible. Breeze agents help you do things in seconds that used to take hours. Providing the customer support of 5 yous generating the content of 10 US and Breeze Copilot keeps you two steps ahead, giving you the right insights at the right time to close more deals than ever. HubSpot Impossible growth made impossibly easy. Get started [e-mail] AI support for this.

[Kara Swisher]

Show comes from ServiceNow who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work. The work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of your business. It, hr, customer service, and more. And that means your people can focus on the work that they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get [e-mail] AI agents.

[Ed Helms]

It is on.

[Kara Swisher]

Ed, thank you for being on. On.

[Ed Helms]

I'm so excited to be on. On.

[Kara Swisher]

So you're a man of many talents. Obviously, you're an actor, but you're also a producer, musician, podcast host, author, and I don't know if I'd call you a political activist, but you're very active politically. So we're going to start with that and get to your book and everything else.

[Ed Helms]

Great.

[Kara Swisher]

You.

[Ed Helms]

Let's dive in.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's dive in. So you campaigned for the Harris Waltz ticket in Reno and Scranton, by the way. My family's from Scranton. Talk about why you decided to get involved. I mean, obviously when you're famous, you get a platform, so why not use it? On the other hand, one of the knocks on Democrats is that they use too many celebrities or stuff. What's the calculus in your head as you thought about how to engage publicly in the election?

[Ed Helms]

I don't overthink it. It's not a complicated calculus, honestly. I had been posting some things that supported the campaign, and then they reached out and I was like, anything I can do, this feels like a critical moment and I'm there. And they said, well, can you be in Reno in, like, two days? And I was like, actually, I can. That works. And so I bounced out there, and I met Tim Waltson. I was incredibly impressed and charmed. He's just a lovely guy, and that sort of galvanized me more. I grew up in a very politically engaged home, and so I've always been a little bit of a politics junkie and a news junkie. And my dad collected campaign memorabilia, which was really fun. We just always had old. I grew up in Atlanta, and he was a big Jimmy Carter Southern Democrat, my dad. And so we had all this, I don't know, just campaign paraphernalia around the house. So it was always something.

[Kara Swisher]

Why was that? Tell me about your parents. Why were they politically engaged? What was his?

[Ed Helms]

It's a good question. The why of it all, which I haven't. I don't know that I ever. I never kind of buttonholed him on that question, the why. But he's someone that has that, I think always had a sort of, like, justice streak, you Know, someone who wanted just to see fairness around him in the world and growing up in the south, really enduring civil rights, you know, he saw so much social injustice around him and, and this is me speculating somewhat, but I think that that sort of galvanized a desire to see a better world and affect change and however he could. And, you know, he worked hard on Andy Young's campaign for mayor of Atlanta. And I can remember Andy Young coming to our house when I was a little kid and just being like, wow, wow.

[Kara Swisher]

He was the star.

[Ed Helms]

He really was. And then for some reason, I had that too. I grew up with a kind of like, preoccupation with fairness. And I would get really frustrated and confused and angry as a kid when I felt like bullies were getting the best of somebody or like, oh, I've.

[Kara Swisher]

Got lots to talk about. There's something going on in this right now.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

It's interesting because you're a board member of Represent Us, an anti corruption organization that advocates for systemic change and political structure. There's a huge amount of corruption happening right now in real time. But one of the big changes you're pushing for, speaking of fairness, is ranked choice voting. Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska recently spoke out in favorite. And that's how Alaskans elect their leaders. But the state almost repealed ranked choice voting in a ballot measure last year. Voters in at least six other states rejected it. And Missouri passed a law banning ranked choice voting. I'd love you to talk a little bit about this idea. Why I am very enamored with ranked choice voting, although it has its critics. And why don't voters like it? Because it sort of tends towards electing reasonable people often like Lisa Murkowski.

[Ed Helms]

Well, you just answered your question. Why don't people like it? It's because it's. It's the system that best represents the largest number of voters sentiment. And when you have entrenched minority power, as we have in this country, it's very hard to sell someone on ranked choice voting. I have this feeling, I get into these debates. I have a family member who's very conservative, and I've gotten into these debates, debates with him about ranked choice voting. And I. Everything that he comes back to me with, I'm just like, this is just Kool Aid like you have. Definitely. You're not citing to me. There's no intellectually honest argument against ranked choice voting. There's only cynical propaganda messaging. And unfortunately, that's been incredibly effective.

[Kara Swisher]

What's his best argument?

[Ed Helms]

That it's confusing which is a canard. Like it's not confusing. Ranked choice voting is just when you, you know, you rank all the candidates based on your favorite.

[Kara Swisher]

They did in San Francisco for the mayor. And it's fair. People think it's fair because if you have your choices and your favorites and your second favorites, it makes it, it's just harder for the voter, I think, is the difficulty. The voter has to think harder, which they don't tend to want to do sometimes.

[Ed Helms]

And I think there are very, there are real questions about how do you do this transparently? Because it's a multi step process. So like what are the, how can you be the most transparent in the process of calculating ranked choice results? And that's a fair question, but I think there's answers to that, you know.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it tends to vote in people who are more reasonable.

[Ed Helms]

Right. And the reason for that is that every candidate is actually now answering to every voter.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Ed Helms]

Because every voter has a say in where a candidate will rank in on their ballot. So if you're a far right candidate or a far left candidate and you're just like throwing red meat at your base, then most voters are going to look at that and be like, ah, that's a little extreme. So I'm going to put them lower in my ranking. So then the most extreme people tend to get marginalized. And that's not a bad thing.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna move on to the idea of using the media in affecting this cause a lot of it is the media, I don't think, has done a great job explaining things. And you said you're fascinated by partisanship and division. How much blame does the mainstream media deserve? And specifically, since you're, you know, you're in comedy when it comes to political satire and your comedy alma mater, the Daily show, still one of the best. And what do you think its role should be? Something like the Daily show and Jon Stewart's protested that he's not a journalist, but he clearly is more than just entertainment.

[Ed Helms]

People would say to me when I worked on the Daily show, they're like, you know, I get all my news on the Daily Show.

[Kara Swisher]

And I was like, my kids do.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. But I was like, that's kind of like doing your grocery shopping at the candy store. Like you're not getting any vegetables. But, but I think you need both. I think you need the, the establishment media sort of doing their best and, and they've dropped the ball quite a lot. But then you need the sort of peanut gallery, which is the Daily show and comedians Just lobbing satirical bombs at the media that just kind of keep them honest, but also keep the public entertained and engaged and reflecting a little harder on these things. That's what I think John always did so brilliantly, was like, was just be a funny gadfly that would make you or make audiences laugh. But then later on they're still thinking about something like, oh yeah, that thing that he pointed out that, you know, Mitt Romney said, that was so hypocritical. Like what? Yeah. And then, then, then they're thinking about it more. But I do think the mainstream media where, where I get the most frustrated with. Well, I mean, I don't first of all, like what is the mainstream media, but sort of our bigger institutions like CNN and Fox News and the New York Times, et cetera, is the horse race of election coverage is so sensationalized that it dramatically diminishes the integrity of the message of the candidates. And then of course, with Fox News, Fox News was really blossoming while I was on the Daily Show. And I remember just being feeling kind of heartbroken that this thing was emerging. And their slogan at that time, they since abandoned it, but, but their slogan was fair and balanced. Do you remember that?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

Literally just fair and balanced.

[Kara Swisher]

I used to say neither fair nor balanced.

[Ed Helms]

It was just so cynical. Like this is. They're so overtly unfair and unbalanced. But to say that seemed almost like a snark. Like they're just kind of, they're laughing at us.

[Kara Swisher]

Although they may believe it. Interestingly, a political scientist named Dr. Dana Young studied the difference between Liberal versus Conservative late night TV. And there's a lot of comedy on Fox. Well, I don't think it's funny, but it's there in a nutshell. She found most liberals mostly watch comedy shows that use irony to create humor. And conservatives generally watch shows like that that use fear to create outrage.

[Ed Helms]

Sure. Or I would also, I would add ridicule.

[Kara Swisher]

Ridicule? Yeah, ridicule. You're absolutely right. Irony usually signals some level of detachment. Is there something to be found in these right wing. I'm thinking of Greg Gutfeld and the others to start cultivating this idea of outrage. And why does that work better in some forms of comedy? It does.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. I think this is, you're getting into a question about a fundamental difference between progressives and conservatives. And I think that progressives tend to think too hard and analyze and even navel gaze a bit. And that's a great landing pad for irony. And conservatives tend to love things that are very simple and black and white and clear. And the more you analyze something or get into the nuance something, the more frustrated they're likely to get and they're gonna wanna cling to the simpler ideas. And that's a more primal response in some ways, which I think also speaks to the fear, you know, gravitating towards fear.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you surprised that something like Gutfeld, which is billed as a comedy show, is as popular as it is comparatively?

[Ed Helms]

No, I don't think I'm. I used to be surprised at how, at the sort of rise of Fox News, but I understand, you know, looking back through history, it just feels like we're at a moment where the, the American population is severely lacking in general sort of civic education and economic education. A lot of people are, are struggling with economic opportunity and that has people on edge. And when people are on edge, they're likely to be gravitate towards simpler and or fearful fear based messaging.

[Kara Swisher]

So speaking of history, it's interesting because it sort of dovetails into your podcast and your book, which is called snafu. Let me read the bottom one. Here it is right here. History is the definitive guide to history's greatest screw ups, which are happening in real time. So you'll be able to have a sequel.

[Ed Helms]

Oh my gosh.

[Kara Swisher]

Pretty easy. I know.

[Ed Helms]

I was trying to write a fun, like a book that's just sort of a fun, cheeky look back and all of a sudden we're in this moment where it's like, yeah, so this is.

[Kara Swisher]

What can we fuck up today? It's like an hour by hour fuck up for people who don't know. What does SNAFU stand for?

[Ed Helms]

SNAFU is a term. It's actually an acronym that emerged during World War II. It stands for Situation normal, all fucked up. So it's basically like, you know what? Everything's fucked up, but isn't it always? And it's, it kind of describes the moment we're in right now.

[Kara Swisher]

And you have a podcast? You have a podcast?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, so I have a pod. I started a podcast a couple years ago called snafu and season three just came out. Each season is a deep dive into one big sort of major historical snafu. But we tried to kind of find things that are off the beaten path. Some things that you may not know.

[Kara Swisher]

About, not well known snafu.

[Ed Helms]

Exactly. And same with the book, by the way. There's a reason there's no chapter in the book that's just like World War II, you know, the curation of the book is much more about Vietnam.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. All right, so one of the threads running through is projects is government overreaching, government stepping all over American civil liberties. There's so many of them like that. And this is actually often a conservative talking point. But why are these so good for this, for this kind of idea?

[Ed Helms]

Well, I think it goes back to the whole reason I engage with represent us and why I engage with politics to begin with. There's just something so frustrating and unnerving about institutional chaos or hypocrisy or even just downright dastardly behavior. And. And yet there's just no shortage of it. It's been all around us for centuries, if. Well, for thousands of years, but in American history. It's fascinating to look back and just call attention to these things that. That I think make people think and also give people a little bit of context for the present moment.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So some of the stories actually feel relevant today. For example, in the 1960s, the US army tried to secretly build a nuclear missile launch site under Greenland's ice sheet. Speaking of Greenland, without Denmark's permission. And of course at the time Greenland was part of Denmark. Continues to be. By the way, it was called Project Iceworm by the army. Can you explain?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, this is an incredible story. So Project Iceworm was this insane idea to build tunnels underneath the ice sheet of Greenland so that they could maneuver nuclear missiles all over the island nation undetected and then launch them from wherever they wanted to missiles. So this was the plan.

[Kara Swisher]

It wasn't like one.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it's kind of a. It feels like a crazy harebrained plan. And so to test this as a possibility, they built basically like a fort on Greenland and they started digging tunnels just to kind of experiment and see if this would work. And they also added a nuclear reactor there for power. And it didn't work. It did not work at all. Basically, they were tunneling into the ice and it was caving in around them and on top of them. And over time they realized this is just not. Not a good idea.

[Kara Swisher]

All attack payer expense, by the way.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And also no one in Greenland was aware of this. And the president of Denmark was like, you know what? Just don't tell me. Do what you guys want, but don't tell me and I'll. And it's fine. But then, of course, because of nuclear waste, people in a nearby village were getting sick. And then it was revealed and it just is. And now, even now, there's nuclear waste frozen in the ice there along with like years of human waste from the fort that they built there. And that's all going to thaw in due course with global warming and be exposed and just be a terrible hazard once again.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is why the perfect time for Donald Trump to buy it. That's the perfect time.

[Ed Helms]

There you go.

[Kara Swisher]

Steal it or take it or whatever. You have a lot of stories about the CIA too, which is always full of these kind of schemes. They're schemes, really kind of wacky schemes. One involves a cyborg cat, another involves pigeons. There's a story, there's about a. A lot of lsd, which I think is relatively well known. But tell us your favorite one. And also, why did the CIA come up with so many of these harebrained schemes that seem doomed to failure, at least in retrospect?

[Ed Helms]

Great question. I think probably the cat one is one of my favorites.

[Kara Swisher]

Go ahead, recount it for people.

[Ed Helms]

So basically, the CIA is always looking for ways to surveil, always looking for ways to be sneaky about getting intel. And so basically the idea was we're going to insert. Insert a microphone surgically into a cat's ear because cats have directional ears and they always. They're incredibly sensitive and they're perfectly shaped to capture sound and. Isn't this a great idea? And then we'll train the cats to go and sit next to bad guys in parks or wherever and listen to their conversations and we'll be able to hear it and record it.

[Kara Swisher]

Cause cats are so well trained that. Exactly. It's called herding cats.

[Ed Helms]

How. Who needs to research whether or not you can train cats? We all know this. You cannot train cats. Siegfried and Roy, unfortunately learned this very hard way.

[Kara Swisher]

Very much so.

[Ed Helms]

It's.

[Kara Swisher]

They tried.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. So it was obviously a debacle. The other one you mentioned that is very funny too is trying to put little backpacks on pigeons with surveillance equipment. Now, what's crazy is like with drone technology, this is happening in kind of a whole new way.

[Kara Swisher]

But little drones, baby drones.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, but micro drones. There's something, you know what cracks me up about these things is they just feel like something that a 10 year old thought of, right? Like maybe one of these CIA guys was just like over dinner, like, how are we gonna listen to the spies? How are we gonna listen in on em? And the kid's like, oh, you could strap a microphone to a cat. And he's like, you're onto something.

[Kara Swisher]

This is great. Talk about you spent some time with a tiger on hangover, obviously too. Speaking of cats.

[Ed Helms]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

I thought about joining the CIA at one point, but it was the whole gay thing they didn't like at the time. Now, I'm sure they'd be thrilled. But did it make you feel differently about the agency? At the end of the day, would you say it's been a net positive or negative, or you thought, oh, no.

[Ed Helms]

I've never had a particularly good impression of the CIA. I mean, there are so many examples of just malfeasance. Yeah, I mean, but I don't know. Season two of the SNAFU podcast goes really deep on the FBI in an incredible story about a group of activists outside Philadelphia who broke into an FBI office in Media, Pennsylvania, stole all the files, and be and leaking them to the Washington Post in 1971. But the reason that they broke in is because they could tell that the FBI was surveilling and harassing people in very illegal, threatening ways, but there was nothing they could do about it. They couldn't go to the FBI and say, hey, some of your guys are bad. It was like they were caught. And this is part of why this moment that we're in right now feels kind of scary, but also familiar in a sort of. In a J. Edgar Hoover way. But these activists, feeling that they had no recourse, broke in and at massive risks to themselves and their families. And these weren't criminals, but they staged an unbelievable heist. And I strongly encourage your listeners to listen to SNAFU Season two. It's a very thrilling and heroic story, but it basically uncovered so much of the corruption within the FBI, so much of what they were doing that was explicitly illegal and some of it evil, you know, like trying to sending letters to Martin Luther King to try to get him to kill himself and all these things. And that led to the church hearings, which is the only reason we now have any congressional oversight over all of our intelligence institutions, the nsa, the FBI.

[Kara Swisher]

And the CIA, and the misbehavior. Season three of SNAFU podcast is about prohibition, by the way. You go all over the place here. Specifically how the government killed thousands of Americans by adding poisons to the industrial alcohol, which bootleggers were turning into alcoholic beverages. It sounds crazy, but the idea is to scare drinkers into sobriety by killing them. Explain what happened, and then tell us what parallels you see today, if any.

[Ed Helms]

That's a wild one. So during prohibition, of course, there's still industrial alcohol that needs to be produced and distributed around the country. The industrial alcohol supply is also what bootleggers are stealing to then turn into Consumer alcohol. The government knew this, they understood this, and they started adding. For a long time, they'd been adding chemicals to alcohol to make it basically gross, like unpalatable, undrinkable because it just tasted so bad. And that process is called denaturing alcohol. And during Prohibition, they thought, well, what if we add some poison to this so that people aren't just getting, you know, a little bit nauseous or that it tastes bad, but it's just starting to kill people and thousands of people died as a result. It's an incredibly tragic story. It's darkly. Also weirdly funny in some ways. It's an example of how the most holier than thou intentions can result in some of the most despicable behavior.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right, right. Yeah. No, a lot of your stories end in despicable. You're like, oh my God, this is another movie. It's like I'm feeling like I'm listening to Erin Brockovich over and over again. Like, what did they do?

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, and then they got away with it. That's the, that's the part that's.

[Ed Helms]

They basically got away with it. There was. They were exposed, but there. But no one really.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what I mean. Yeah, there were no exposure is not getting. Is not. Is still getting away with it if you're not put in. You're right. So is there any parallel to today? Because there's a lot of snafus again happening in plain sight right now. Now it's explicit. What was implicit is explicit. Now it's like they're doing the corruption or the criming in plain sight.

[Ed Helms]

Sure. In the broadest sense, I would just say government overreach is the. Is sort of the biggest parallel. But gosh, where do you start? There's so much going on right now that feels like it's mean spirited and harming people during prohibition. It's. I don't think that this behavior was. That adding poison to alcohol was necessarily mean spirited. It wasn't. Didn't come from a place of like, we want to punish these people. It was more like, this is going to help us get people to stop drinking. It was an incredibly flawed logic. But now it does feel like we're in a moment where pain and suffering are an objective or intentional. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Smartsheet. You know that frustrating feeling when you're getting really into the flow of a work task and then you hear that little ping of a message notification. Then you switch your screen. Then you open a new application, then check the message, then click the link in the message. Whoops. That opened a new application and your flow is totally broken. But you're definitely not alone here. On average, this toggling between tasks and applications adds up to about 9% of time spent working each year. That's five whole work weeks. This distracting task squishing is what Harvard Business Review called the toggling tax and increases stress hormones, decreases focus, and makes it impossible to tap into the state of flow. That's where smartsheet comes in. Smartsheet is the work management software where workflows where you and your team can plan, track and deliver their best work without toggling back and forth between multiple applications. Imagine what you could do with those five extra work weeks if your work happened all in one place. Smartsheet Work with flow. Learn [e-mail] support for today's show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's a quick jaunt or a long journey, no matter where you're going, the all electric Equinox EV allows you to travel with confidence, comfort and connectivity. Equinox EV comes equipped with a standard 17.7 inch diagonal color display touchscreen, making it the largest center screen among EVs in its class. Its sleek lines and a commanding stance define the exterior of Equinox ev, while the no Compromises interior has a cargo room and storage that you do you at a starting price of around $34,995. Equinox EV, a vehicle you know, value you'd expect and a dealer right down the street, you can go EV without changing a thing. Learn [e-mail] Equinox EV based on latest competitive data, the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price support for on with Kara Swisher comes from the NPR Politics podcast. Keeping up with politics means processing a whirlwind of information on the daily the NPR Politics Podcast can help declutter it all for you. Every day, the NPR Politics Podcast team focuses on one thing and boils it down to 15 minutes or less. Each episode makes it easy for you to understand what's going on in politics, from the complete restructure of the federal government to immigration policy, tariffs and trade, to unpacking the first hundred days of Trump's presidency. They explore whether the president has lived up to his early promises and how his executive orders and spur of the moment decision making are changing the nation and your life. In the long term, you can Tune in and hear about what's being done, what's to come, and what might change, and, of course, what it means for you. I really enjoy listening to this NPR program. It does everything in a very short time. I know we're all pressed for time, and it's really important to have a really smart politics podcast like NPR Politics Podcast. In order to do that, you can listen to the NPR Politics Podcast only from npr, wherever you get your podcasts. Okay. So every episode we get an expert question from someone. In your case, we got one from a very serious person, Dr. Lindsay Chervinsky, a presidential historian and executive director of the George Washington Presidential Library. She's author also of Making the Presidency. Let's hear her question. Hi, Ed, Congratulations on the book. In your podcast and in this book, you are sharing history with a public audience. And that is amazing. Anyone who loves history always wants it to be available to the maximum number of people and the maximum number of places. But there are so many options. Museums, books, classes, materials, online podcasts. How do you see yourself in conversation with those? Are you a part of the history community? Are you a conduit, sharing information from other places and trying to get it to new listeners? I'd be really curious to know how you think about that and how we can get people more interested in history in lots of different types and spaces. Thanks so much.

[Ed Helms]

Great question.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you a historian?

[Ed Helms]

Honestly, I've felt a little bit like I'm in a bubble with a lot of this stuff, and I'm eager to engage more. I've been doing a ton of podcasts over the last couple of years as a guest to help promote my podcast and this book. And that's opened me up to a lot of what's going on out there more. And I'm really hoping on this book tour I have coming up that I get to meet a lot of people from that space. My brother is a history teacher in Washington, D.C. yeah, middle school history teacher. I'm insanely proud of him, and he's been an inspiration and someone that I feel like is part of my connection to history on the ground.

[Kara Swisher]

But in her question, how do you think people should learn about history going forward? Obviously, certain things like podcasts, Roman history podcasts are booming, for example. Right. Because for some reason, men love to listen to Roman history. I do, too. Let's be clear. But how do you get to people when you want to talk about history, especially in the current partisan environment? And certainly Trump is doing his best to rewrite history. It's probably fair that Americans aren't particularly well informed about world history? For sure. American history. Also, how do you get people to understand history in a way that's obviously you're doing it in a funny way, but it's also dark too.

[Ed Helms]

Sure. Well, history at its best is great storytelling. I think it is incumbent on people who are passionate about history and whether it's a professor at a university or a teacher in an elementary school or someone with a podcast to convey these narratives, these historical narratives in incredibly engaging ways. And especially in this moment, we're in that. Where we're so just awash with distractions and insanity. It feels like, especially with the way that Pete Hegseth is like, you know, washing the Pentagon websites of female or African American or like any. Any prestigious accomplishments, it just is insane. Like, this is a moment where, where we have to be extremely skeptical of our sources of history as well. So, like, if you're looking at, at a government website for history right now, you need to be asking, am I getting the full picture? And really assuming that you're not, what do you.

[Kara Swisher]

Are there period of events, of history that you find yourself thinking about now and. And what piece of history do you wish Americans knew really? Well, if you had to go back, is it different things you've looked at?

[Ed Helms]

I feel like that J. Edgar Hoover's sort of reign of terror of the FBI for so long is incredibly instructive to this moment, in part because the DOJ and the FBI have become basically just political arms of the president. And it happened so quickly. And it's very. I think that is scary. But also looking back at J. Edgar Hoover, we're able to see, yes, that was also an extremely scary time. And it took a lot of courage for a lot of people to bring that to light. And like I say in the introduction to the book, part of what looking back at Snafuz does for us is with distance. Like, looking at these horrible things from a distance gives us at least a little bit of a high altitude sense that we move through these things, we get through them. And there are generally some heroes to these stories, and we can look to those heroes. As fucked up as a situation might be, we can look to those heroes for examples on how we can do better in the present moment.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely. So I'm gonna switch a little bit and we're gonna talk a little bit about news. And to finish up, we're gonna. Let's go back to the Daily show for a minute. You are known for doing field pieces because this is how to communicate this stuff to people. You've said the formula was find the news item and then just take the dumbest possible stance. Here's a clip from a segment you did called Mass Hysteria about gay marriage becoming legal in Massachusetts. I love this one.

[Ed Helms]

Now that gay marriage is legal, Massachusetts ranks dead last in illiteracy, 48th in per capita poverty, and a pathetic 49th in total divorces. Somehow, Don and Robert, one of the state's first married gay couples, don't see the problem.

[Kara Swisher]

A lot of things that affect the.

[Ed Helms]

State of Massachusetts far more profoundly than.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, two people who love each.

[Ed Helms]

Other and getting married. Name one thing in Massachusetts that's not ruined.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I, I, I guess I look.

[Ed Helms]

At it the other way around. I mean, I can't think of anything that gays marriage has actually caused other than letting people get married. Easy for them to say.

[Kara Swisher]

It still stands up.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, my gosh. Blast from the past.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, I know. If you were doing that now, what would you go for? Pick one dumb news event that you would go and then be dumber.

[Ed Helms]

Gosh, it's hard to say. But you know what's interesting? Listening to that and hearing the sort of the angle of attack that we used as correspondents on that show, purely in the service of satire and comedy, is also what you're seeing unironically with Jesse Watters or, you know, some of these guys. And it's that I think in some ways we may have paved the road for some of those guys.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. It's like network.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. But I think. What was your question? Oh, about something today that would be worth diving into.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Ed Helms]

God, it's, it's overwhelming.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, let me help you here. Elon Musk said he's going to spending less time in D.C. after Tesla fell drastically compared to a year ago. The public seems to be turning on a most too much power. Most people think Doge hasn't done a good job, which is actually factual.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, that's a great one. You know, I think you can, you can just take the dumbest possible take, which is that Doge is a massive success and that it is that it's doing amazing work and you butter up Elon Musk and, and that he's not leaving for like, how, how cynical is it to think he's leaving because Tesla is tanking or that Doge is failing. That's a cynical take. The right take is that this is a, he's taking a victory lap and he's.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's what he's doing. That's what they're actually doing. Right. I don't know why they're doing it, but they're saying everything was great. I'm like, except it wasn't, you know, and the numbers keep falling.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, God. It's Orwellian. It's fully Orwellian at this point.

[Kara Swisher]

If it wasn't so stupid. That's the problem. And it's stupid and Orwellian at the same time.

[Ed Helms]

I would argue that's the saving grace, is that it's stupid.

[Kara Swisher]

That's stupid. I'm just curious. It's totally unrelated, his Internet sense of humor. As a professional comedian, what do you make of it? It's. I think it's odd for someone his age to be obsessed with 4chan style jokes. They're unfunny. Correct.

[Ed Helms]

It's sad. To me, it's sad. It's like, I mean, trolling is so. It's such a window into, like, primal darkness in humanity. I feel like trolling behavior in general. And it's one of the things that the anonymity of the Internet has just shown us in this, like, black mirror. Oh, this is really who we are. Like, we're pretty awful. Humans are pretty awful. And I think it's really sad and disgraceful that someone who has built such an empire has so little gratitude and so little of a sense of wow. A lot of people have contributed to my success. A lot of people still work hard in my factories and buy my products, and I rely on those people for my wealth and. And. But it's my wealth and I'm not going to. I don't know. It just is it. There's. There's so the lack of gratitude, the lack of perspective, the eagerness to troll and harm and hurt. You know, when he tweets about someone, they get. Their lives can completely unravel. They get doxxed and stalked and death threats and everything.

[Kara Swisher]

So he said my heart is seething with hate. Just so you know. It's not.

[Ed Helms]

I feel that. I feel that from you.

[Kara Swisher]

Right now. I'm seething right now.

[Ed Helms]

You're seething.

[Kara Swisher]

He's just. I'm funny.

[Ed Helms]

People who can't see Kara right now, there's actually smoke rising off of her body.

[Kara Swisher]

Honestly, you're just not funny. He's just not funny. If he was funny, I would say so. You've said that Trump has a fragile little ego like Andy Bernard. There may be more parallels if you indulge me just for a second. The office was full of lovable incompetence and some venal incompetence. The Trump administration kind of resembles that, except it's not funny and it's not lovable. I'm just curious if you had to put people from the Trump administration into a character from the office, if they remind you of. If you don't mind, I'll ask you a few.

[Ed Helms]

That's really interesting. Well, part of what made the incompetence on the office so funny and lovable is that the stakes are so low.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Ed Helms]

You know, when. When somebody messes up something huge in the office, like it's a paper company, like it's not. There's no reverberations across the globe. But, gosh, let me try.

[Kara Swisher]

Pete Hegseth. Try.

[Ed Helms]

Okay. Pete Hegseth would be a little like Packer.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Someone thinks Meredith, actually, because alcoholism.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, interesting.

[Kara Swisher]

J.D. vance.

[Ed Helms]

J.D. vance. He's a little Dwightish. I think he's a little Dwight fruity, maybe.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, absolutely. Karen Levitt.

[Ed Helms]

You know what? This is a. She probably is. She's like a cross between Angela and Ellie.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Marco Rubio.

[Ed Helms]

It's hard because I love the characters in the office, so it's hard to compare them to people that I struggle to like. But he's a little bit Oscar Nunez because you never see Marco smile. Like, he's so. He feels so tense.

[Kara Swisher]

To me, he's living in hell.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, it feels like you're right. He's living this. Like he's just signed up for a life that is so against who he is at his core. And so he's living a lie. And in some ways, that was Oscar's sort of thing.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, two more. Kash Patel, speaking of the FBI.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, what was Zach Wood's character? There's something about something there, like intense loyalty, subscribing to a hierarchy with dedication and like actually being well spoken in the midst of all that. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Gabe. Gabe.

[Ed Helms]

Gabe. Of course.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, last one. RFK Jr.

[Ed Helms]

When will Ferrell guested on the show, that was he. That. That had RFK vibes.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara swisher comes from NerdWallet. Folks, if you're anything like me, your day is a non stop balancing act. You've got things to do, places to be, and honestly, hunting for the best auto insurance deal is not exactly the top of the list. That's where the nerds at NerdWallet come in. They've already crunched the numbers so you don't have to. You want a lower auto insurance rate, right? But you've also got your life. You've got to write that speech for your friend's wedding, your new business to grow. And in between all of this, you've got to figure out when you're taking your dog to the vet. NerdWallet makes it easy. Answer a few quick questions and boom. Your best insurance match right then and there. Looks like you have the time to hit up the vet and grab a nice leisurely cup of coffee while you're out. Using your brain power on what Actually smart Letting the nerds use their brain brainpower on helping you find the right financial products. Genius. Get matched with lower auto insurance rates [e-mail] not all applicants will qualify for the lowest monthly payments. NerdWallet Insurance Services California resident license number.

[Ed Helms]

OK92033 right now the Home Depot has spring deals under $20. So what are you working on? If you're planning on cooking out this season, head to the Home Depot so you can fire up the grill with deals on charcoal. Right now, get two 16 pound bags of Kingsford charcoal for only $17.88 was $19.98. Don't miss spring deals under $20 now through May 7th at the home Depot, Subject to availability valid on select items only.

[Kara Swisher]

This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Everyone has a reason to change. Growing old, heartbreak, a fresh start.

[Ed Helms]

Whatever it may be, Peloton is here to get you through life's biggest moments.

[Kara Swisher]

With workouts you can do on your time and motivation that keeps you coming back. Peloton's tread and All Access membership help you track progress in classes from runs to Pilates, making you stronger and your fitness goals a reality. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton visit1peloton.com we're going to finish up talking about the entertainment industry in general. You're currently executive producing and starring in a film called Smudge the Blades about Canadian youth hockey team on an indigenous reservation. It's your second project that deals with issues faced by indigenous people with co star Jana Schmieding. You also starred and executive produce in a series for people called Rutherford Falls. They're not obvious choices for you. Explain why you're doing these.

[Ed Helms]

Rutherford Falls emerged as Mike Schur was one of the writers on the Office and also went on to create amazing shows like Parks and Rec and Others. And he and I have always been close and always sort of like when are we going to work together again? What's it going to be And a bunch of years ago, we just started having these open ended phone calls, long conversations or visits. We'd go to each other's offices and just hang out and just explore, like, what's activating us right now. And this was during, I think the first Trump campaign, around 2015. And we were sort of wanting to tell the story of a guy who didn't understand historical context and had a lot of beliefs and an obsession with his own family origin story. And we wanted to sort of like pull the rug out from this character. Like, what if he learns that he always felt like his family was like a very noble and courageous family that did the right thing thing through the Civil War, and he's built his entire identity around this. He's created a museum about his family and so forth. We were talking about this with another friend of ours, Sierra Ornelas, who's a Native American comedy writer. And then it was like, oh, you know what, there's a deeper story to tell here. Maybe this is a guy who believes his family did the right thing by the Native American community. And. And then we roped Ciara in and she became a showrunner and co creator with us. And Jana became my co star on that show. And it really emerged into what it became, which is really a story about reflecting on the narratives that we cling to then, the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what happens when maybe you're wrong or those things fall apart. And I think, and weirdly, in this moment, I think a lot of people have. We've all. I know for myself, we've all been telling ourselves that America is a certain way or has a certain story to it, and suddenly things are shifting and like, oh, maybe I didn't understand things the way I thought I did. Anyway, that's the origin story.

[Kara Swisher]

In a lot of ways. You're reclaiming history, right? You're reclaiming it the way it's told.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah. And I think looking at past mistakes is like a triumphant exercise. It's like, look where we are. Look what we've. Look how we got through that thing. Look how we emerged. You know, this new executive order about the Smithsonian. And yeah, that's very unnerving because it does seem to be like we don't want to or we're scared of our history. It's such a fearful posture. Like, no, no, history is inarguable. History is not something we can. And we either reckon with it or we don't. And if you don't, then you're just living A kind of this false kind of like cardboard cutout of a.

[Kara Swisher]

Some people want to do when some people do it. Okay, I have two more quick questions. Streaming has revolutionized the entertainment industry. The Office, they're starting to actually be profitable. Obviously, Netflix is killing it. YouTube is also killing it. By the way, the Office was once the most streamed show on Netflix, where NBC reclaimed the show to put it on Peacock and thank God, because it was a big success for them. It's also in syndication, in cable, and stuff like that. How does that work for you? How do you think of your career? Because I'm assuming you're not getting paid every step of these ways with that, they're. That they're taking the Office and taking advantage of the finances around it. But you also had a hit Netflix film called Family Switch, for example. How do you look at the industry right now?

[Ed Helms]

The simplest answer is, I am confused and a little bit scared of the industry that I have come up in, because the rules that I came up with and these structures that I came up through have been so dramatically altered and dismantled that it's confusing. And at the same time, of course, there's tremendous opportunity also. And so it's a matter of trying to focus on that. There used to be a sense of like, I know how to get a movie made. At least I know the steps I needed to take to get a movie made made and. Or a TV show. I know that I'm going to pitch to this person, and then if they like it, they're going to take it to this studio and so forth. Like, there was a way of understanding things that has largely evaporated, and now there's a much bigger emphasis on kind of building something holistically and then presenting it to a buyer. The other hard part is you used to be able to rely on this idea that something successful would become part of the sort of. Of zeitgeist or some. Or part of the popular conversation. And now so much consumption of media is so siloed that, you know, if you're really deep on a TV show and excited about it and want to go to work and talk about it, you can't be sure that the person in the cubicle next to you even knows that show exists.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. You know, because you're in your asylum.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah, that's a.

[Kara Swisher]

Unless it's one or two things. Like, my son just called me and says, did you watch Severance? I'm like, yeah, I did.

[Ed Helms]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Of course, certain things break. Right. Still. But not in the same way, you're absolutely right.

[Ed Helms]

But also like the severance numbers aren't. And I don't know what, they aren't big, but they're not the numbers of a hit, you know, of like ER or the Office or like a big network show from 15 years ago. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

So what does that mean for you as an artist? Do you think there's an opportunity to be. This is the same thing as happening in the media industry and I've embraced it for a long time. And so I'm like, great mess. I like it. And some people are very entrepreneurial. You seem very entrepreneurial. You're doing the podcast and stuff like that is. Do you have to be entrepreneurial now? Is it a good thing? Or do you like the old paternalistic kind of ways where they just give you the town car and the multi million dollar salary and then just go over there and be funny?

[Ed Helms]

Well, I miss it only because it was it, I understood it and now I'm a little bit. Now I feel like everyone's a little more adrift and figuring things out. And I think maybe the hardest thing in this moment is it's so unclear what buyers want. So when you're developing a show or a movie, you're like, well maybe this streamer will like this, but those three won't and is there something. So whereas you used to be able to take something to the town with a pretty decent idea that like these movies are working or these kinds of TV shows are working and that's what people are buying now. It's so hard to tell and that's a little bit scary.

[Kara Swisher]

But yes, or they don't buy what you think they were going to buy. A very well known friend of mine was like, I can't believe I pitched this and nobody wanted it.

[Ed Helms]

And I was like, we all have those stories. I have almost a very similar story with lots of big stars in a big funny TV show with a famous creator didn't get picked up and no one wanted it. It. And it's like. But we did the math on that. But it is. So that's scary and unnerving and a little frustrating. But at the same time, always like any. Anyone with an entrepreneurial spirit is going to be just looking for those avenues and, and it's still fun. I mean it's still. It just, it reinforces the core of the process which is to focus on what you love. Like what do you love to create and make and what's going to inspire you. And it's what's I'M so lucky to have had the. To work on things that I love and to now have, like, the expansion of the landscape has allowed me to kind of, oh, take this hobby, like an interest in history, and make a cool podcast. And there's infrastructure, there's money for that we can get. You know, iheart and Film Nation are our partners in my podcast, and, like, they help. They give us money to make this thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, they're making money, in case you're interested.

[Ed Helms]

Wait a minute, Wait a minute.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, my last question. Give me one of your snafus.

[Ed Helms]

Oh, boy. I think for me, a personal snafu that I can point to. This is. This is a little heady, but I moved through life for a very long time feeling a little detached from the world, feeling like I didn't quite understand the world around me and that people operated differently from me or thought differently from me, and that that was a little. Always this kind of unnerving feeling that I had. And I always. I could always get along well and move, and I had close relationships. I'm lucky to have had wonderful people in my life who I love dearly. So I wasn't really necessarily adrift, but I always felt like I didn't. There was things I didn't understand. I didn't understand how people did certain jobs or how certain things came so easily to people. And some of these things are maybe like, managing just aspects of one's life. Right. Logistics of life always confounded me and has always been a struggle for me. And this is a. I'm not unique in this sense, but I went to therapy for many years in my 20s, again in my 30s and 40s, and I still couldn't sort of crack this feeling that I'm different and that I wasn't clicking in some way. I finally read a book called Driven to Distraction, which is one of the original sort of academic texts on the ADD or ADHD phenomenon. And I wept reading that book because there was so much about my life that I saw and understood in this book that was just this epic awakening. And also, this was just a couple of years ago. And so for me to think back on so many of the things that were so hard for me or so confusing or scary or unnerving for me, both socially and in terms of, like, just steering and navigating life, my heart breaks for that younger me being so confused and isolated in those feelings. And I sort of think of that as like a snafu in the sense.

[Kara Swisher]

That, well, I really wish the opposite of a snafu.

[Ed Helms]

Well, the, the, the awareness now. But, but had, but just had I had an earlier intervention of some kind or, or the awareness or curiosity to kind of like take that tack a little bit earlier or a lot earlier that some things could have gone differently. That said, I have very little to complain about.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, don't do that. Don't do that sentence after. Don't do it. Don't do it. I appreciate it. That's a wonderful story. That is actually a wonderful story, and it's a good thing to end on. Ed Helms, thank you so much.

[Ed Helms]

What a pleasure. Thank you. Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro, Rousselle, Kateri Yochum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney. Megan Megan Cunane and Kaitlin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Special thanks to Eric Litke. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're one of the lovable, more competent office characters, a Pam. If not, well, that's your snafu. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.