← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
Scott, you are smirk free, so that's good. Hi everyone From New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. Today I'm sitting down with someone you've probably seen me spar with on cable tv. CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings. You heard that right. As the Wall Street Journal puts it, he's the conservative explaining Red America to CNN viewers. And for some CNN viewers who are not in Red America, he is the villain. Jennings has been in Republican politics for more than two decades. In the mid aughts, he worked as a special assistant to President George W. Bush and later advised Senator Mitch McConnell in multiple campaigns. He was openly critical of President Trump before and during his first term, especially after the January 6th attacks and as recently as 2023. But at this point, it's fair to say that Jennings is a Trump man. And that's very clear if you read his new book, A Revolution of Common How Donald Trump Stormed Washington and Fought for Western Civilization. In it, Jennings argues that Donald Trump's second term is not just a political comeback, but a transformation of the presidency itself. I wanted to talk to him about that and how his positions have shifted dramatically over the years on all kinds of talking points. I also wanted to hear what he thinks of the current MAGA infighting and what the post Trump future of the Republican Republican Party will look like. Our expert question today comes from former Republican political strategist Tim Miller, host of the Bulwark Podcast and a former colleague of Jennings. He has done the opposite. He'll turn to Jennings and is a never Trumper. This is gonna be a spicy one, but I also think it's really important to talk to people you disagree with. And Scott and I have had a really rocky relationship and it's on television, but I wanted to have a substantive discussion with him and I think that's really so stick around. Support for this show comes from Smartsheet. If you want to optimize your workflow, it's important to have all of your documents in one place. But it doesn't just stop at documents. You should have everything you need in one place. That's where Smartsheet comes in. Smartsheet is the intelligent work management platform that embeds AI powered execution to drive the velocity of work. With AI first capabilities, you can make work management your superpower. Getting personalized insights automatically, creating tailored solutions, and streamlining workflows to elevate your work. Plus, this intelligence layer unites people, processes and data, helping you tackle any work management challenge, visit smartsheet.com Vox support for the show comes from Crucible Moments, a podcast from Sequoia Capital. Every exceptional company story is defined by those high stake moments that risk the business but can lead to greatness. That's what Crucible Moments is all about. Hosted by Sequoia Capital's managing partner, Roelof Botha, Crucible Moments is returning for a brand new season and they're kicking things off with episodes on Zipline and Bolt, two companies with surprising paths to success. Crucible Moments is out now and available everywhere. You get your podcast and@CrucibleMoments.com, listen to Crucible Moments today. Support for the show comes from AT&T, the network that helps Americans make connections. When you compare, there's no comparison. AT&T. Thanks for coming on on. We clearly disagree on a lot of things. We've had some beefs on cnn. I'm just curious, when you're deciding on these interviews, who are you trying to reach particularly?
- [03:58]
Scott Jennings
Well, I wrote it because as I told the president in February that I thought 100 people would write books about this period of time attacking him and that one person who kind of got it and wants him to succeed and generally agrees with what he's doing should write a book about it from our perspective. So, you know, I think there's an audience out there for people who either like him or, you know, feel like they're Republicans or feel like they're center right, but they don't often feel like there are books about these kinds of things that are written for them. So that was the initial impetus for it. And I interviewed him. I interviewed a good chunk of the cabinet and the staff. And also I just observationally, I hung around. I watched him operate. Truthfully, Cara, I didn't know him before February. I had not really even met him. And so a lot of this was new to me too.
- [04:47]
Kara Swisher
I'm going to talk a lot more about the specifics of books. It's about the first hundred days or so of the administration. Ish. Yeah. But let's talk a little bit about you. I'm really interested. I'm fascinated by you in some ways, somewhat horrified occasionally, and I'm sure you feel the same about me. But one of the things you said to me that struck me is that you compared the panel you're on with Abby on Newsnight on cnn and it's really elevated you in many ways to wrestling. And I found that horrifying in some ways and also accurate at the Same time. So talk to me about how you think of yourself as a character right now. I guess in some ways.
- [05:29]
Scott Jennings
Well, I have compared it to wrestling somewhat because it's the only show on television that is, in my opinion, a true debating show. It is truly a show built around conflict, the conflict between conservatives and liberals, Democrats and Republicans on the issues of the day. I'm actually somewhat shocked that other cable channels don't try this because I go around, I talk to a lot of people, I hear two things. I love you and I love the debates or I don't like you, but I love the debates. And everyone tells me the debate format to them is informative and it's entertaining and I, I think there's a hunger for it. So I actually think CNN deserves a lot of credit for creating the space for it. I think we're better for it. I think a lot of conservatives who had stopped watching CNN are at least now consuming some of the content via social media and it's generated by that show.
- [06:22]
Kara Swisher
So when you say wrestling, wrestling is fake, you know, Right. Is that fake to you? I mean, one of the things I did is I went and talked to some people I believe to be your friends and once said, we are friends. He's not that smirking jackass he plays on Abby's show. He's a good guy. And also added that the real Scott is thoughtful and compelling and some of his critiques of the Democratic Party are fair. But noted that Trump is antithetical to some of your basic beliefs and that you were carrying water as a business proposition. I'm sure you've heard that.
- [07:00]
Scott Jennings
Oh, I hear all the criticisms. And look, I'm trying to give people an authentic view and a fighting view of how most Republicans and most conservatives are absorbing either the breaking news of the moment or the issue of the moment that we happen to be going over. So I am somewhat of a press secretary for half the country or sometimes more than half the country on any of these issues. And I'm trying to give you an authentic representation of how all this is being absorbed by non liberal America.
- [07:37]
Kara Swisher
Right. And is that what I mean to ask you is that is authentic to you? Almost everyone I talked to said you're not like that off screen. Not like I think I'm the same.
- [07:46]
Scott Jennings
A conservative.
- [07:48]
Kara Swisher
No, of course that's not what I'm telling you. Not as pugnacious, not as performative, not, you know, you've perfected. I have a smirk too. Scott's. Well, you know, you've perfected the smirk, for sure. You know, it's an expression. Does a drunk agree with the sober kind of thing?
- [08:04]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think the show and the format of the show is. Lends itself to conflict. I mean, it lends itself to, in the moment, fast debates. You know, most conversations you have in real life, you're not on a clock. It's not adversarial. You know, there isn't a moderator sitting there going, okay, here's the issue now. Fight, which is essentially what we do. So I guess I would just say conversations you have off of a television debating show out in the real world are just, by their nature, constructed differently. But I'll tell you this. I don't say anything on TV I don't believe in or can't defend. And I, and I do think I have a responsibility to represent to the audience how the vast majority of Republicans or conservatives are viewing something at any given time. That's kind of the point of the show, is to show both sides and let people react to that.
- [08:52]
Kara Swisher
Sure. Do you feel like you always have to agree with Trump to play that role?
- [08:56]
Scott Jennings
No, I don't agree with him all the time. And there's been moments when I have disagreed with him. I'll give you an example. The other night when we went over the story about the $230 million lawsuit that he had filed regarding wrongful treatment by the Department of Justice, I said on the air, look, if it were me and I were advising him, I would tell him to table this until he leaves office, because I don't think it's right for the sitting president, United States, who oversees the Cabinet, which includes the Justice Department, to be involved in litigation against his own government. So that's a really recent example where I thought, you know, tabling this is the correct answer. And I said so on tv, you.
- [09:32]
Kara Swisher
Know, half the people who watch it, or more than half, probably think you're the villain. Right? There's always a villain on a show. As you said, you're the press secretary. You're channeling people. Is that a positive thing for you, being seen that way? Or I guess, a hero among those who are conservative like you?
- [09:50]
Scott Jennings
Well, that's what I was going to say. I guess it depends on your disposition. I mean, to some people, maybe I'm a villain. To some people, I'm a hero for being willing to stand up on a network that isn't known for platforming conservatives or conservative views, to a table full of people who are hostile to worldview. So I don't necessarily think of it that way. I try to make it entertaining. I tend to think political conversation can be somewhat boring, but that it's possible for it to be entertaining. And you can be quippy and funny at times and show a little personality. I tend to think that draws in audiences and it's one of the reasons that show's working.
- [10:26]
Kara Swisher
Is that good for America, given how polarized we are as a society?
- [10:32]
Scott Jennings
I think it's good for America for them to be more engaged with politics than less. And I think politics and conversation about politics can be extremely boring and off putting and frankly not feel very accessible to a lot of people. And one of the things I do think about is what makes this informative but also engaging, like, do I want to watch this or not? And I do think that's an important question. Can we draw people in? But I don't say things out there that I believe to be false. I don't say things out there like I would never misrepresent something that I know or that I've heard someone say. But I think if you can present your arguments in a way that attract more audience, that's, I think that's ultimately a good thing for civil discourse. You don't have to be super boring or super off putting just because it's politics. And I. And that's, you know, that's kind of, kind of what I'm trying to accomplish. I think it's. Look, I think it's one of the best shows on cable television. I think it's informative. I think you get to hear some authentic representations of how the right and the left are seeing the world. I also think it's illuminating to the fact that we don't really have a shared reality often in this country what people sitting out there who oppose me see the world as and what I see it as maybe very far apart. This is one of the only times we're interacting with each other. I tend to think there's something good that's going to come out of that, even if it comes out of some kind of a conflict at the table.
- [12:00]
Kara Swisher
And you think you're helping in that regard. Helping versus hurting.
- [12:04]
Scott Jennings
Yes.
- [12:05]
Kara Swisher
Okay, we're gonna discuss your book in a minute, but there's too much news right now not to ask you about these things. This is also a news podcast, obviously, starting with the Epstein files. The House voted this week to demand that the Justice Department release them. President Trump did an about face on Sunday and told Republicans to vote for the bill. The White House had been trying to block it Georgia Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene was asked on Tuesday whether she really believed that Trump would sign the bill and the DOJ would release a file. Let's play a clip. I only take people's actions seriously. No longer words. And I'll. I'll tell you because I'm. I wasn't a Johnny come lately to the MAGA train. I was day one, 2015. And there's a big difference. And those Americans and those that. That decided to support President Trump later on, and I'll tell you right now, this has been one of the most destructive things to MAGA is watching the man that we supported early on. Three elections for people that stood hours, slept in their cars to go to rallies, have fought for truth and transparency and to hold what we consider a corrupt government accountable. Watching this actually turn into a fight has ripped MAGA apart. And the only thing that will speak to the powerful, courageous women behind me is when action is actually taken to release these files. And the American people won't tolerate any other bullshit. That's where we are today. Trump is calling her Marjorie Traitor Greene now. But this is a big moment. It's one of the first times that Trump has bent to the party instead of holding the line. Now, you were not on the Trump train during those times. You were quite critical of Trump at that time. Explain why the Epstein files have become such a divisive issues, and do you think Trump will actually release them?
- [14:11]
Scott Jennings
Well, I do. I think they'll follow the law. You know, I would be lying if I told you I knew what that meant specifically. But the way I understand it, they have to put out everything that they can put out on this, and I don't know what that means. Is that 20 boxes, is that 2,000 boxes? I have no idea. I think it's been a little divisive because the President has been frustrated by the narrative around this. And I think Democrats want people to believe he had something to do with.
- [14:39]
Kara Swisher
She wasn't a Democrat. She's not.
- [14:40]
Scott Jennings
No. I'm explaining Trump's position, and I spoke to him about it the other day. I think he believes Democrats want folks to think he had something to do with criminal activity that he had nothing to do with. And there's no evidence that he had anything to do with it. And I think it has further frustrated him that some people in his party that are his supporters have, I think, in his mind, sort of aided and abetted the proliferation of a narrative that is. Is incorrect about him. And so I think, you know, he's used the Word hoax. The hoax is not what happened. Obviously something happened and these women are victims and they were taken advantage of, but not by him. And he had nothing to do with it. And so I think it's been highly frustrating for him to have this perpetuation of a narrative that he thinks has been completely incorrect as it relates to his involvement in what Epstein did.
- [15:30]
Kara Swisher
Right. You use the term Democrats, but this is actually, I spent a lot of time in right wing areas of talk and stuff like that. This has been a foundational issue with them, certainly a QAnon one, a Maga one. It's been a foundational issue among his supporters, which is, I think the heel turned by Greene is not a surprise to me.
- [15:50]
Scott Jennings
I agree it has been a big deal to some chunk of his base. I don't know what percentage, but it's not insignificant. I concur with you. I think they believed that this was always going to reveal that powerful people, elite people, and probably people on the left, most likely Bill Clinton, that's what they think we're showing to somehow be implicated in this. The Democratic counter argument has been, oh, but Trump was friends with him, therefore he must somehow be involved in it. And so to the extent that that is the narrative that has been perpetuated, I think he got quite frustrated with the issue in general. Now it's come and gone. They're going to release the files, I don't know how quickly and we'll see what's in there. I know some documents have already been released. I assume it won't take that long.
- [16:36]
Kara Swisher
Sure. No, to be fair, he's done the same thing to others. There's no evidence of Reid Hoffman, absolutely zero, no evidence had been released that you're talking about. But when you, when you talk, why do you think it's. I want you to stick with a MAGA base. Why is it such a divisive issue with that? I don't think it's. They, let's get Bill Clinton. That is not what I, what I perceive from these people.
- [16:59]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think the general perception is that elites, political elites, you know, institutional elites, financial elites did get away with something here. And I don't think Trump actually ever personally fully made this the core argument of his reelection. But there's no doubt that some people who strongly supported him did do that. And I do think they've been highly disappointed that this didn't happen right at the beginning, that the files or the list didn't come out right at the beginning. So, you know, I think for Trump.
- [17:29]
Kara Swisher
He also did say he would release the files.
- [17:31]
Scott Jennings
Well, he got asked about it and answered a question. But if you listen to his speeches during the campaign, it was about immigration and inflation, not about the Epstein files.
- [17:40]
Kara Swisher
He was fully aware of the importance of this issue to his base.
- [17:43]
Scott Jennings
Oh, I don't, I'm not, I'm not disputing that, but I don't think he would tell you it's why he, you know, returned to the White House or that was the issue that put him over the top.
- [17:50]
Kara Swisher
So you, if you were advising him, what would you advise him right now?
- [17:53]
Scott Jennings
Oh, now. Well, I mean, the die is cast. I mean, sign the bill, get the documents out and, and let the, Let the chips fall.
- [18:01]
Tim Miller
There's.
- [18:01]
Scott Jennings
There's really nothing else to do. We're at the end of the line here in terms of the fight. The only thing that will happen now is when the documents hit, people will read them and, you know, start to form opinions or narratives about what's in. I guess it's hard to advise when you. When you don't exactly know what you're dealing with. I mean, without having read it.
- [18:17]
Kara Swisher
Some people do in the Justice Department. They certainly know what's there.
- [18:20]
Scott Jennings
Yeah. And I, I'm not one of them. So it would be hard for me to formulate advice without knowing.
- [18:25]
Kara Swisher
I think this has a lot of staying power myself. Marjorie Taylor Greene was a Trump diehard. Speaking of which. And I know you've said the falling out is because Trump sent her a poll that wouldn't endorse her for Senate run in Georgia. She dies at Trump. Told her not to run, by the way. What do you think of her transformation? And do you think they could make up after this?
- [18:45]
Scott Jennings
Oh, look, I think a lot of people have come and gone from Trump. I mean, look at Marco Rubio. I mean, they had some knockdown drag outs when they ran against each other, and now I think he's one of his most trusted, if not the most trusted member of the Cabinet. Look at Elon. You know, they were together, and then they were estranged, and now Elon's at the Saudi state dinner this week, and they look like they were somewhat chummy. So.
- [19:06]
Kara Swisher
Somewhat. He was in the wall in the back. The seating was interesting, but go ahead.
- [19:09]
Scott Jennings
Well, I mean, he was there, and, And a lot of people took note. So, you know, I would. I would think people, you know, have come and gone in the past. I will say I. I do think they, the folks in the White House believe they tried to do her a favor by Showing her information to save her from a humiliation of running statewide in Georgia. And they believe since they did, that she has become, frankly, a policy and a political opponent of the president, even up to. And running to, you know, places like the View to attack him. And I think he finally had enough.
- [19:41]
Kara Swisher
You're on cnn. She should go on the View. What's wrong with that?
- [19:44]
Scott Jennings
I guess there's nothing wrong with it, but if you're asking me how they're reacting to it, their reaction to that is, well, she's no ally of ours. She's become a policy opponent. She opposes on the Middle east, she opposes on immigration. She's been a thorn in our side on Epstein, and now she's running to the View to complain about the president. This. This doesn't sound like someone who is our friend. I think that's how they're interpreting it.
- [20:06]
Kara Swisher
Why do you think she made this transformation? Honestly? Do you think she's running for president?
- [20:11]
Scott Jennings
Oh, running for president? Gosh, I don't know, but I don't know how in the world she would ever be. J.D. vance, a sitting vice president.
- [20:17]
Kara Swisher
What does that tell you about the future of the MAGA movement? There's a lot of this happening, a lot of disagreement, a lot of fractures. Trump has been the only one to hold it together, and I doubt JD Vance has the ability to do so the way he has. I think almost no one can. He's a unique political creature. What does it say about the future of where this is going?
- [20:37]
Scott Jennings
Well, you raise a great question, and I agree with you. I don't think anyone can replicate Trump. I mean, it's very unique. His force of personality has held together people from disparate wings of the Republican Party and people from outside of the Republican Party. I mean, RFK is now in the Republican Party somehow. So it's an ideologically diverse coalition, and Trump is uniquely positioned to hold it together. But the nature of a presidency is that it's built around that person. I mean, who replaced Barack Obama? Nobody, really. I mean, the coalition he built was for him. And so the challenge for JD or whoever comes next is how do I carry forward knowing I can't replicate it, but I still have to keep enough people in the tent to win.
- [21:23]
Kara Swisher
So you think he is the natural inheritor of this?
- [21:26]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think it would be quite unusual. If the sitting vice president is in good stead with the president and people seem to think he's doing a good job, it would be historically unusual for him not to inherit the nomination, and particularly if he were to team up with a Marco Rubio, who everyone by the way is quite happy with. I think it would be difficult to beat them from the outside.
- [21:52]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Smartsheet. Look, everyone wants to go faster. Whether you're stuck in line standing at the DMV or you've got a huge to do list at work that doesn't seem to go away. But usually when things are rushed, mistakes tend to follow. That's where Smartsheet steps in. They can get you the speed you need and the productivity to go alongside it. Smartsheet is the intelligent work management platform that embeds AI powered execution to drive the velocity of work. With their AI first capabilities, you can make work management your superpower, getting personalized insights automatically, creating tailored solutions and streamlining workflows to elevate your work. This intelligence layer unites people, processes and data, helping you tackle any work management challenge. Plus, smartsheet AI turns intent into guided workflows and smarter outcomes by generating tailored solutions and personalized insights through intelligent AI assistance. The result is an environment where humans plus AI work collectively to anticipate needs, remove barriers and enable greater impact so you can move faster, think bigger and drive greater business growth. Visit smartsheet.com Vox. Support for on with Kara swisher comes from LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7, so when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do. That hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. LinkedIn's new feature allows you to write job description and quickly get your job in front of the right people. With deep candidate insights, you can either post your job for free or pay to promote in order to receive three times more qualified applicants. Let's face it, at the end of the day, the most important thing for your small business is the quality of candidates. And with LinkedIn you can feel confident that you're getting the best. That's why LinkedIn claims that 72% of small business owners who use LinkedIn find high quality candidates. So find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Kara that's LinkedIn.com Kara to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. Support for this show comes from Twilio Twilio's Customer Engagement Platform is the ultimate toolbox for developers, designers, business leaders and everyone in between. Whether you write code or shape strategy, if you build, you belong looking to create truly memorable customer experiences. You bring the vision Twilio brings the platform. Think of it as your digital workbench where you can tinker, play and ultimately create a product you've been dreaming about. Twilio provides real time messaging, AI driven insights, personalized customer journeys. It's all there, ready for you to build with. And their Customer engagement platform is flexible, open and designed for builders who want to create unforgettable customer experiences that drive impact. If you're scaling a startup or transforming an enterprise, you need a customer engagement platform that can keep up. And with Twilio you get the power to build, test and scale with confidence. You can create without limits, without workarounds and without compromise. Just the freedom to build your way. Bottom line, Twilio is the ultimate builder's toolbox. So what will you build today? Learn more@Twilio.com that's tw I l I o.com be a builder with Twilio. Trump welcomed Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman to the White House this weekend, called him a very good friend. This was the first time NBS has been on US Soil since Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi was murdered by Saudi agents in 2018. ABC's White House correspondent Mary Bruce asked Trump whether MBS visit is a conflict of interest given the Trump family business with the Saudis. She also asked about Khashoggi's murder and said that 911 families were also furious that MBS was there. Trump, instead of answering the question, lashed out at Bruce, calling ABC fake news and one of the worst business, denied any conflict of interest related to family business and said about Khashoggi, things happen. He later said he thought ABC's license should be taken away. He kind of added that on at the end. Are these politically good moves at this point, or how do you explain what's happening here? These are seeming legitimately fine questions.
- [26:23]
Scott Jennings
Yeah, that's probably true. Although Trump's perception of how he's treated by the press, of course, is that it's not good and he believes he is mistreated by them.
- [26:32]
Kara Swisher
He's an open wound. He's, he's quite a delicate flower.
- [26:35]
Scott Jennings
You know, I think his view would be, look, I give these people more access than virtually Any other politician or president ever. And this is the way they treat me. And so I don't think it's anything new that he has his sparring sessions with the press. Now in the case of the Saudis, look, he is doing something big ticket here. He's trying to get them to join the Abraham Accords. He's trying to strengthen the relationship between the Saudis, the rest of their partners in the region, and the Israelis. And he has, you know, this was his idea, and somebody coming in and trying to throw sand in the gears, I think would be offensive to him. And I think that's what you were seeing there.
- [27:14]
Kara Swisher
Again, if you were an advisor, you think these are good things or just let Trump be Trump sort of playing on the West Wing idea. Is that a good thing necessarily for this particular goal?
- [27:25]
Scott Jennings
Is it a. Is it a good thing? I mean, I think it's a Trump thing. I mean, when has he had warm relations or warm reactions to, you know, the, the press gaggle that has followed him around for the last 10 years? I, I can't think of a moment that he did. So I guess I didn't, I didn't think anything of it because it's, it's situation normal. He believes they're hostile to him. I think they are largely hostile to him. And he reacts to them in a way that you would if someone was constantly hostile to you.
- [27:51]
Kara Swisher
They're not friends like, you know, you at the beginning said, you know, you feel like a PR person, they don't feel like a PR person and they should be tough on any president. Very quickly, I was gonna ask about the Zoran Mamdani. He is asked to talk to Trump about affordability. Around 2/3 of registered voters say Trump hasn't lived up to his promises to improve the economy and to bring down the cost of living. Trump has dismissed the polls saying prices are coming down when clearly they aren't. How do you think this idea of Anamdalani Trump meeting is? You said he likes to hear opinions from Ran and people he talks to. And obviously Mom Donnie has hit on something really strong around this.
- [28:28]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think the president should have a relationship with the mayor of New York City. I mean, it's one of the most important cities in the world. Now, the way Trump sees the world and the way mom Donnie sees the world obviously couldn't be farther apart. And Trump, being a New Yorker, I think he feels, you know, like he knows more about New York City than mom Donnie will ever know. And so that it's not like, he's coming into the end of the conversation cold.
- [28:51]
Kara Swisher
You know, it's not a contest.
- [28:53]
Scott Jennings
So I think that'll color their relationship, obviously, because of Trump being from New York and having strong positions on New York, but it's New York City. It's an important place. It's a financial capital of the world. And. And so should they have some kind of relationship? Yes. Do I think Mamdani intends it to be adversarial? I do. And. And, you know, we'll have to see how he's going to play that.
- [29:12]
Kara Swisher
How do you look at his campaign and his focus on affordability, which I think really was the winning message in that case?
- [29:20]
Scott Jennings
Oh, really? I think the winning message was that he got to run against Andrew Cuomo twice. I mean, he. I mean, he got to run against the worst candidate twice. Not once, but twice. And that was really helpful to him. I mean, look, he has never had a real job. He has never managed anything approaching.
- [29:37]
Kara Swisher
You don't have to do this. I want. He is. He ran a fantastic campaign. You, as a campaign person has. Have to look at that.
- [29:42]
Scott Jennings
And he lost a third of his own party to a guy who was disgraced when he left office just a couple of years ago. I don't know whether that's true or not.
- [29:50]
Kara Swisher
Famous Governor. That's not a surprise. That's not, to me, a surprise.
- [29:56]
Scott Jennings
Look, I'm as hopeful as any Republican is, which is to say, not very much. I don't have a lot of utility for people who are quoting Eugene Debs in their acceptance speeches.
- [30:06]
Kara Swisher
Okay. He also quoted Mario Cuomo. When you look at him as a force, how are you looking at that?
- [30:12]
Scott Jennings
Oh, look, I think in politics, you always have to be careful what you wish for. I remember Democrats licking their chops at the thought of running against Donald Trump in 2016. Oh, this is a good thing. Be careful what you wish for. And I think the ascendant energy in the Democratic Party is with people like him. The socialist energy in the party is clear. It's reflected in the polls. He's a great actor. He's well produced. So I, you know, I. I take it very seriously what he was able to do. I do think he had a terrible opposition and he had a fragmented field, which also helped him. And I think he may run headlong into the governing realities of the way being mayor of New York City works. But I think it did tell us something about where the Democrats are, which is.
- [30:55]
Kara Swisher
You kind of just described Donald Trump, but go ahead. At the beginning of his beginning of his ascent upwards.
- [31:01]
Scott Jennings
Well, look, I, I think one thing is true. To succeed in politics these days, you do need a level of showmanship. You do need a level of production. You, you do need a level of being able to communicate in a modern way. And, and I concur with you. Mamdani knew how to do that. Now, whether there's any substance underpinning all that production, we'll have to find out. I'm dubious, but we'll see.
- [31:21]
Kara Swisher
Well, they thought the same of Trump. I mean, I remember how they looked at him for sure. Let's talk about the book Revolution of the Common Sense, which is about Trump's first months in office. The conflict between Trump and the mainstream media, which we talked about already. His recurring theme though in your book in Trump is in one of the, through lines of your book, for example, you reiterate the Hunter Biden laptop story. Quote, the media colluded with more than 50 so called intelligence experts in 2020 claim that Hunter Biden's laptop was classic Russian disinformation campaign. You and I had a fight about that last year on cnn. Let's play that. There is no proof that tech companies colluded to do this. This is nonsense and he knows it.
- [32:00]
Scott Jennings
No, I'm sorry, there was a majority institutional effort.
- [32:05]
Kara Swisher
No, there was suppress. Listen, I have been one of the biggest critics of tech. This is nonsense. I think the issue is this word collude. I think one, I mean, you might say Trump colludes with tech people now, like they're at his dinners, etc. Etc. And he's applying a lot of pressure and influence to them at the same time. Explain what I think is an obsession with collusion.
- [32:26]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think in that, that particular case, what Republicans were exercised about was that they, you, this Hunter Biden story was emerging. There was something there and there was an immediate attempt by media outlets to say this is not a huge deal. I remember NPR saying we're not going to cover this because it's not important to the American people, which I totally disagree with. And then you had tech companies and platforms literally not putting the story on their platform and they were actively censoring it on the doorstep of an election. So the general criticism is. And then on top of that, the Democrats go out and recruit 50 people with fancy titles, intelligence backgrounds to all say, oh, this is classic Russian disinformation. So you had a number of things going on. And what did we find out later? It was real. The information on it was real and it was valid stuff. About whether the Biden family was, you know, involved in things that, you know, you and I might agree would be considered corrupt. And so why was there such an effort to keep this information from broad distribution to the American people on the doorstep of an election? Republicans were mad about it then, and they're still mad about it today. What were they so afraid of? I mean, the story was true. There wasn't really any dispute of that, other than from these 50 people who come from government, who are in and out of government when Democrats are in power.
- [33:52]
Kara Swisher
That's politics to me, Scott. I mean, you're not naive. Come on. They were making their case just like you would say Trump just did with whatever issue he has.
- [34:02]
Scott Jennings
Well, I, I don't agree that it is just a simple matter of making your case. When you use your government title and you use your intelligence bona fides and you use all your credentials to flat out lie to the American people. They didn't know that that was a political argument, but they were saying this is Russian disinformation. What you're reading is directly out of the Kremlin. It was one of the biggest lies that was told to try to get Joe Biden over the finish line. Do you think that's just politics as usual?
- [34:33]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I do, actually. I think it's. I do you like it? I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like Trump meddling with intel. I don't like Trump meddling with the tech companies. I don't like the paper play that looks like it's available right now for these companies. I know why they're doing it. I know why they're paying this money. I know why they're giving the money. This is not a new and fresh thing. And I think the tech companies will go wherever their bread is buttered. That's really pretty much how I look at them.
- [35:00]
Scott Jennings
I guess my point is this. There is a general feeling that if the elites make a decision about what the narrative is going to be, they can crush you. And they can either coerce tech companies into crushing you, they can coerce media into crushing you. But the crushing of opinions and dissent in this case, I think, left a bad taste in people's mouth.
- [35:21]
Kara Swisher
I guess I could just say Brandon Carr right now, making threats against Disney. I guess I could say lawyers. But let me talk about this idea of common sense approach through the book. Like, for example, common sense to rip down the East Wing feels not so common sense. Or to throw a great Gatsby party I think these are largely distractions, honestly. And the snap benefits fight, that doesn't seem like common sense to me. So I wanna understand what you mean by common sense and putting America first.
- [35:46]
Scott Jennings
Yeah, great question. So the book title is A Revolution of Common Sense is a phrase that I stole from Trump.
- [35:52]
Kara Swisher
I thought it was a Thomas Paine.
- [35:53]
Scott Jennings
Reference, but, well, common Sense was his pamphlet. Trump, in his inaugural address said, we are having a revolution of common sense. And when I heard it, I thought, oh, that would be a great book title. And so I. That's where I got the germ of the idea. But, you know, I think there's been a lot of issues in American politics over the last few years where it felt like we were, you know, dealing with uncommon nonsense. And Trump comes along and, you know, he has a pretty good instinct for picking up, you know, the 80 of a lot of 80, 20 issues, boys and girls. Sports is a good example. I even mentioned I was in the Oval Office today. I think he signed the executive order banning paper straws. You know, some things are big, some things are. Are large, but they're all just what an average person would say. Oh, yeah, that, that's common sense. I think that's how he has rebranded his political movement.
- [36:38]
Kara Swisher
Ripping down the East Wing doesn't seem like common sense to me. I, I don't know. If I was on that side, I'd be like, oh, what a stupid move. A Great Gatsby party when government workers are furloughed, that doesn't seem like common sense. And if I want to go to Elon, throwing around a chainsaw when people are losing their jobs doesn't seem just mean. Pretty much just mean. But talk. What isn't common sense? Those I just gave you three.
- [36:59]
Scott Jennings
Sure. Well, I'll give you the Republican eye view of that. I don't think it was common sense to shut down the government. I don't think it was common sense to, I think, effectively hold federal workers and all these people in their SNAP benefits hostage just to keep your base gender up for an election. And that's why they cave when the election ended, because they didn't know how to get out of it. They knew it was a political tactic in the beginning, but I don't think any of that was common sense for the Democrats. I guess they got their political outcome, but I don't really put any of that on Trump. They were the ones who voted against the Biden budget levels that they themselves had just supported. What was common sense about that? Absolutely nothing.
- [37:36]
Kara Swisher
What about his administration going to court to fight against giving Americans SNAP benefits. Was that common sense?
- [37:41]
Scott Jennings
I mean, the Congress specifically did not appropriate money for this. And then you want them to spend money that wasn't appropriated. They just had no kings rallies, and then they want him to act like a king and spend money that wasn't appropriate, but they wanted king for a day.
- [37:55]
Kara Swisher
What is not common sense that's going on here? Because Trump doesn't have a problem using funds that weren't appropriated for his own purposes. That has happened several times.
- [38:05]
Scott Jennings
Without you giving me an example to react to, I don't know what I would conjure up. I'll give you one. From early in the administration, I, I personally thought the Doge effort to cut wasteful spending, the principles and the impulses were correct, but I don't think the PR and the public communication was right. And I think when you're going to make major changes like that and you are going to go in and, and, you know, take a wrecking ball to certain things, you have to have a PR strategy that matches the magnitude of it. And so to me, it made sense to do it, but it, it didn't make sense to do the PR the way they did it. So there's an example from. If I had a criticism of something that was handled or mishandled this year, that was one of them. I like the concept of it, but I think the PR of it could have been handled much better, and I think the American people would have approved of it if more communication efforts had been made, not just directly, but also with the Congress.
- [38:58]
Kara Swisher
Speaking of Doge, you write about it in the book. So the reality is that Congress doesn't even know how much of the budget has been spent because of Elon Musk and the Doge slash and burn. In your book, you called what Elon did with Doge extraordinary. I think you're. That's not what most people think, including Trump. People I talk to. Something else stood out. You wrote about the U.S. digital Service. You wrote, crucially, the office was able to reach every layer of the federal government was exactly what Elon Musk had in mind when he mused about having access to the government's servers. I'm curious as a conservative, because I certainly, I'm not a conservative, but I'm certainly concerned that Elon has access to a trove of government data of America's information, especially with AI models that consolidate that information. That sounds like Big Brothers, not limited government that conservatives want.
- [39:44]
Scott Jennings
Well, I, I think that if you were going to start to examine how we're spending money and where it goes within our vast bureaucracy. You have to have access to the systems that would tell you where it's going. I don't have any reason to believe Elon had any nefarious purposes whatsoever other than to tell you what he told me when I interviewed him. I said, why are you here? And he said, I'm trying to find a way to make America not go bankrupt. And he was sincere in that he had strong feelings about a lot of other issues, but that was the first thing that he told me when we sat down. And so I interpreted all of his moves as this. I've been given a mandate by the president to find wasteful spending and to cut it. And I want to move fast, and I may need to break some things along the way, but how do I actually get access to the information that I need to find the things to cut? I mean, they did it, and in some cases it was successful, and in some cases they ran into roadblocks, but I think they were feeling pressure to move quickly. And Elon told me he believes our fiscal situation is dire. He thinks the amount of debt in the country is devaluing the currency.
- [40:54]
Kara Swisher
That's where he broke with Trump.
- [40:55]
Scott Jennings
Yeah. He believes that that, combined with the mass migration crisis and the low birth rate, is sort of. All these things are aligning to really threaten the future of the country. And then. And he was very sincere about that when I spoke about it.
- [41:08]
Kara Swisher
I don't believe everything comes out of his mouth that you might, given I've known him for 30 years and was a fan, and no longer, when you look at Doge, because you talk about it a lot in the book, you consider it successful.
- [41:19]
Scott Jennings
Well, yes, I think the impulse to cut wasteful spending, which is not a.
- [41:23]
Kara Swisher
New impulse, Scott, cutting spending. The Bush administration had one. The Clinton. Every administration has one of these things.
- [41:29]
Scott Jennings
And then, look, I wrote about this as well. When you look at what the President laid out in his speech to Congress in March, you know, going through that line item of all the sort of ridiculous things, I think those are the nagging things that drive people crazy, and no one ever seems to do anything about it. So, yes, I liked it very much. As I said, though, I think the future of this is you have to have more cooperation with the Congress, because ultimately they are going to have to be the ones to decide to spend less and enforce less spending and enforce less ridiculous spending on the executive branch. So that. That, to me, is what's missing right now, is the evolution where we're working with Congress to make it stick and make it get, frankly, more expansive over time.
- [42:11]
Kara Swisher
So are you actually pushing for a stronger Congress in the face of executive authority?
- [42:16]
Scott Jennings
Oh, look, I think it would be great if Congress would take up their responsibilities to exercise a little more fiscal responsibility in this country. I think most Republicans believe that.
- [42:26]
Kara Swisher
And how do you think they're doing right now?
- [42:29]
Scott Jennings
I think some things are good. I like that they executed the biggest welfare reform in a generation in the big beautiful bill. I think that is good. But I think the, the enduring question and the most important question is, you know, we're spending 54% more money today than we were just before COVID Do you feel like Your government is 54% better today than it was just before COVID I don't. And we have, you know, trillions upon trillions upon trillions in debt. I, I think Elon's alarm that he raised to me is quite real. And, and I think that sentiment is held by a lot of people. And so eventually we're going to have to reckon with this and we haven't done it in a serious way yet.
- [43:06]
Kara Swisher
Which is why he broke with Trump. But when you get to the idea of Congress having more power, do you think this Congress, which is in lockstep with Trump is a good idea and people pushing back like Marjorie Greene should be welcome, presumably? Right, correct.
- [43:24]
Scott Jennings
Well, look, I think that the Congress is largely in step with Trump on his policy priorities. And it's because when he ran for president, they were all running at the same time and they all basically ran on the same platform. They didn't run their campaigns to say, well, I know you love Trump, but I'm going to go up there and oppose him even though I'm also a Republican. I mean, that's kind of ridiculous. And so I think they've done what their voters expected them to do, help the President execute. I think the long term fiscal health of the country, though, is troubling and it needs to be dealt with. And it, and it, you know, look, 70 something percent of our budget is non discretionary. And so, you know, we are going to have to reckon with some long term structural issues if we're going to get the fiscal health of the country in order. And that, that has not been dealt with yet, but it will have to be someday.
- [44:17]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from AT&T. Wireless companies love to make bold claims like they have the best coverage or how you'll never lose a call on their networks. And yet we've all had the experience of being stuck with spotty service or missing out because we couldn't connect well. One provider actually has the goods to back it all up. AT&T Based on third party metrics, AT&T has the rest beat. While the other guys are busy making claims they can't keep, AT&T is making connections on America's fastest and most reliable wireless network. So no matter if you're out at a concert, a huge sporting event, or out enjoying nature, you can post when you want to post, call when you want to call, and rest easy knowing no matter where you go, AT&T has got you covered. When you compare. There's no comparison. AT and t based on RootMetrics United States Root Score Report 1H 2025 tested with best commercially available smartphones on three national mobile networks across all available network types. Your experiences may vary. Root metrics rankings are not an endorsement of AT and T. Support for this show comes from upwork. So you started a business, but you didn't expect to become the head of everything. Now you're doing marketing, customer service and IT with no support staff. At some point, doing it all becomes the reason nothing gets done. Stop doing everything everything. Instead of spending weeks sorting through random resumes, Upwork Business plus sends a curated shortlist of expert talent to your inbox in hours. These are trusted top rated freelancers vetted for skills and reliability. And with Upwork Business plus you can get instant access to the top 1% of talent on Upwork in marketing, design, AI and more, all ready to jump in and take work off your plate. Upwork Business plus can take the hassle out of hiring and the pressure off your team. That way you can stop doing everything and instead focus on scaling while the pros at Upwork can handle the rest. Right now, when you spend $1,000 on Upwork Business plus, you get $500 in credit. Go to Upwork.com SaveNow and claim the offer before December 31, 2025. Again, that's Upwork.com Save Scale Smarter with top talent and $500 in credit terms and conditions up apply.
- [46:48]
Scott Jennings
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- [47:14]
Kara Swisher
All right, so every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours.
- [47:19]
Tim Miller
Hey, Scott, it's your old buddy Tim Miller with the Bulwark podcast. When I was asked to submit this question, I just thought about what a long, strange trip it's been since we worked together for Jeb bush back in 2015. And that made me just think of this little thought exercise. I wonder what you think would have happened if I went in a time machine from today back to our old office there in Miami in 2015. And I said to you, so you know, guess what? You won't believe this. Donald Trump's been elected twice after he was elected. The first time, he lost his reelection, threw a temper tantrum and then sicced a mob of violent super fans on the Capitol where they attacked police officers, menaced Mitt Romney, our man, and other politicians. And yet somehow he came back, got elected to the presidency again, and then instituted an insane Smoot Hawley style non conservative tariff regiment, trampled all over the rule of law. One example, sending Venezuelans to a foreign prison camp to be tortured with no due process, just based on their tattoos. And that after all of that happened, you, Scott, my Jeb colleague, would be for him, not only for him, enthusiastically for him, simping for him on a podcast. And I think If I told 2015 Scott that you would say, that's crazy, Tim. A, there's no way that could have happened, but B, there's no way I'd be for it. But here you are, you're for it. And so I wonder, does that make you think that 2015 Scott was wrong about something? Or does that make you think maybe some of the people that you thought had TDS when they talked about all the crazy stuff Trump would do, had a point. Let me know what you think.
- [48:47]
Kara Swisher
All right. 2015 Scott, don't worry, I sic difficult questions on everybody.
- [48:52]
Scott Jennings
I thought you were going to get a question from an expert, but you got Tim Miller instead when you get the expert question.
- [48:57]
Kara Swisher
Entertainment, Scott, entertainment.
- [48:59]
Scott Jennings
Yeah, he's neither export nor entertaining, I can assure you. Look, here's what I think. 2015 Scott would have been totally shocked to have learned early on anyway that Donald Trump was going to get elected twice. I will tell you a quick story that I tell in my book. And you know the first person to ever tell me Trump was going to be the next president was my dad, a garbage man and a factory worker from Kentucky who was the biggest Clinton Democrat that I knew and of course I told him he was full of shit and you don't know what you're talking about. And he was right and I was wrong. And so I think a lot of people who had been trained in normal politics didn't take it seriously at first. I learned very quickly during that primary not only should it be taken seriously, but that it was quite likely to happen. I did campaign in 2016 for Jeb early on, and I was out on the road and I was running into people thinking, he's got something going on here. And. And that's when I realized there was a big change coming to the Republican Party. So I think in many ways, Donald Trump has executed like any Republican would. Taxes are low, the Supreme Court is conservative. You know, these are basic Republican things. The number one departure on policy orthodoxy has been tariffs. No question about it. It's not been a tariff party. You know, Bush did a little tariffs briefly, Reagan did a little briefly. But we've not been a tariff party. But interestingly, it is the. I think in. And I don't know what you think, but it's the longest held view of Trump. It's his most closely held view.
- [50:30]
Kara Swisher
I think it's his view. I think it's idiotic. Go ahead.
- [50:32]
Scott Jennings
But it's his most consistent view, and he has never, ever shied away from it. And yet he did win two elections on it, and he did implement it. I personally think the Supreme Court may take away some of his power here based on what I heard in the arguments. I guess what I would say is that every president puts their own policy and premature on their own party. Bush did a few things that weren't are particularly conservative either. But what I have come to believe is that we're not just arguing about the daily politics anymore. I do believe the future of the west is at stake. And whether Trump knew he was signing up for it or not, I believe he believes in the future of the west, and I think he's fighting forces that don't. And so I guess I sobered up a little bit about what's really at stake in this world. And it's not just daily policy fights, but it's about ideologies, and it's about whether we're going to have an American future or something much darker.
- [51:23]
Kara Swisher
That's the dark idea of it. But you write as if terrorists were a flex. I don't think most people think tariffs are a flex. Most conservatives in the. In the old School and 2015, Scott certainly wouldn't have thought it was a flex, correct?
- [51:35]
Scott Jennings
No, no. Republicans for my whole career did not believe in tariffs. We were not a tariff party. Some of our presidents had dalliances with it, but they didn't believe in it the way Trump did. And so there's no question and no quibble for me that this is, in my opinion, the biggest policy departure from the traditional conservative or Republican movement.
- [51:57]
Kara Swisher
But you support it?
- [51:58]
Scott Jennings
Do I support it? Look, I think he won the election on it, and he's our president and he's allowed to, he's allowed to operate.
- [52:05]
Kara Swisher
But do you agree with it, Scott Jennings?
- [52:07]
Scott Jennings
You know, I think some of it is working already. I think some of it is tbd, and I think I would probably rethink some of it. But I guess I have a bit of a nuanced answer on it, but, yeah. Do I support his general theory that manufacturing needs to be stimulated, that workers have been left behind, and that we have let some other countries take advantage of it? Yeah, I agree with all that.
- [52:28]
Kara Swisher
Okay. The things you don't write in the book are also revealing to me. You didn't talk about Trump pardoning or commutations of January 6th protesters. And you wrote in 2021, which is only four years ago, that Trump betrayed his oath of office. That was the nicest thing you wrote then. Why you decide to leave those things out?
- [52:46]
Scott Jennings
You know, my view is this. People who commit violent actions should not get pardoned. I don't agree with it. I do think people who were there, some of them may have been overcharged. That's certainly the president's view. I haven't reviewed every single case. You know, I'm not somebody who necessarily believes in large class action pardons. I didn't like it when Biden did it to the drug offenders at the end of his administration. And I don't think it's correct that these people didn't pay a price. Most of them were convicted, most of them suffered severe consequences and like, so they were punished. But, you know, my view of January 6th is that it was a terrible day. I wish it not had happened. I hope it never happens again. And it was, it was, it was hard to watch. And I think it was a. It was.
- [53:32]
Kara Swisher
And you stand by what you said about him then? Do you stand by that, what you said about him, which was pretty tough.
- [53:38]
Scott Jennings
Yeah, Look, I, I think, I think there was a lot about the run up to January 6th, what happened that day and what happened in the aftermath that, that, you know, there's not a lot to be proud of. There. And I think it was, it was, it was a dark moment. I hope we never, ever, ever see anything like that happen again. The, the transfer of power in this country is a sacred thing, and we need to respect it. And by the way, at the time, I was thinking, gosh, is this going to be the norm now, no matter who wins the next election? Then we get to 2024 and Trump wins and, and, you know, we kind of went back to normal in some ways. We had a normal.
- [54:16]
Kara Swisher
Well, Democrats don't, don't take over the Capitol illegally, but okay. And people died in the, in what happened on January 6th. I think you do agree with me that that was a stain on his legacy. So I want to see if there are limits. For your love of Trump, let's do a lightning round. Yes or no answers. Would you support President Trump if he launches a war to take over Greenland or Canada or Venezuela by force?
- [54:41]
Scott Jennings
I don't have any problem with military action against Venezuela. I don't think we'll be having any wars with Canada in Greenland. The. And I write about this in my book, the Impulse to Possess. Greenland is a good one.
- [54:52]
Kara Swisher
Would you support President Trump if he uses the FCC or another federal agency to shut down or bankrupt a media outlet?
- [54:58]
Scott Jennings
Shut down a media outlet. I think the SEC should just enforce the law as directed by Congress. That's what I think they should be doing.
- [55:09]
Kara Swisher
Meaning?
- [55:11]
Scott Jennings
Well, I mean, they are the regulatory agency over the Communications act under which we still operate for some reason.
- [55:17]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [55:18]
Scott Jennings
In this country. So I think their mandate is to.
- [55:20]
Kara Swisher
Just a news distortion rule that Brendan Carr used.
- [55:23]
Scott Jennings
Well, I. Look, my personal view is that he is. He is only able to do what the law or the Congress has created the FCC to do. If the Congress wants to change that, that's up to them.
- [55:35]
Kara Swisher
Would you support President Trump if he finds a loophole in the 22nd Amendment and runs for a third term?
- [55:39]
Scott Jennings
No.
- [55:39]
Kara Swisher
Would you support President Trump if he uses the National Guard to block polling sites in 2020? 8?
- [55:45]
Scott Jennings
Block polling sites?
- [55:47]
Kara Swisher
He could do it.
- [55:48]
Scott Jennings
I don't know anything about that.
- [55:49]
Kara Swisher
But you don't think he will?
- [55:50]
Scott Jennings
I think everybody has a. Has a right to. Every legal voter ought to have a right to vote.
- [55:54]
Kara Swisher
All right, last one. Will you support President Trump if the GOP loses in 2020 and he refuses to leave the White House and we have another incident?
- [56:03]
Scott Jennings
I mean, look, I think the president's gonna have a successful term, and when it's over, we'll put a new president in there, and we ought to have A peaceful transfer of power just the way we had in 2024.
- [56:12]
Kara Swisher
Before I go, just very quickly, you're a political commentator on cnn. That could be part of Warner Brothers discovery sale. You've been reportedly approached to join CBS Outright. They've been reaching out to many conservative pundits like yourself on CNN panels. Clearly you're the odd man out, but it does give you a unique selling point, for sure. Have you been contacted?
- [56:32]
Scott Jennings
Contacted by who?
- [56:33]
Kara Swisher
By CBS Outright?
- [56:35]
Scott Jennings
Oh, I'm not going to comment on that. I have a lot of conversation with a lot of people.
- [56:40]
Kara Swisher
That would be a yes, I think. Would you rather be surrounded by other maggot Republicans like on Fox or maybe CBS in the future? How do you see your future here?
- [56:50]
Scott Jennings
Oh, I think I was put on this earth to debate and to do so in a hostile environment. I think I have found the absolute correct job for me in this business. And I think CNN creating this environment for these debates has been one of the best things that's ever happened to me and I think it's one of the best things ever happened to the network. And so I quite like what I'm doing right now.
- [57:09]
Kara Swisher
And do you have political aspirations? Obviously, it's been talked that you might run for office in Kentucky, where you were, you were. I mean, I believe Mitch McConnell is like a father to you in some ways. Correct? Grandfather has been. Grandfather, okay.
- [57:24]
Scott Jennings
He's been my mentor. I've known him since I was 16 years old. And if it weren't for Mitch McConnell, I don't know if I would have been able to go to college, to be honest with you. So in the short term, no medium or far term, maybe. We'll see.
- [57:37]
Kara Swisher
Does it affect you that your mentor had broke with Trump? How. How has that affected your relationship?
- [57:43]
Scott Jennings
Not at all, really. It's interesting, actually. In Kentucky, everybody assumed McConnell was going to be a thorn in Trump's side, but it's really turned out to be Rand Paul and Thomas Massie that have been the thorns in Trump's side. And McConnell has, I think, actually been. He's been quite helpful to Trump in, I mean, he helped, I know, internally in the Senate lobby, internally to get the big beautiful bill passed.
- [58:04]
Kara Swisher
But he's been publicly, he's been publicly critical too, though, of course. Has that been difficult for you?
- [58:09]
Scott Jennings
No. I mean, look, I, I don't think, I'm not one that believes everybody has to get along or be golfing buddies. You know, politics means that sometimes you have people on your team that you don't personally get along with, but you're still fighting largely for the same things. And I will tell you this, McConnell and Trump are forever linked in history by what they did to change the Supreme Court. I mean, but for both of them, it is their big, one of their biggest. For McConnell, certainly, and for Trump, it's one of their biggest legacy points, the changing of the court. And it was McConnell and Trump that teamed up to do it. And I, whenever conservatives come up to me and complain to me about McConnell, I say, oh, do you like a 6:3 Supreme Court? And they always say yes. And I say, welcome to Team Mitch, because that's what the results of that was.
- [58:53]
Kara Swisher
Okay, last question. If Trump does indeed stick to the 22nd Amendment, as we all hope he will, another Republican will be candidate in 2028. I think you're saying it's going to be J.D. vance.
- [59:02]
Scott Jennings
Likely, yeah.
- [59:03]
Kara Swisher
Will you push back if they take on policies that are different from Trump's, which you've embraced, I think pretty wholeheartedly, or do you think you will go along with that, whatever that happens to be?
- [59:15]
Scott Jennings
Well, I think, you know, every nominee of the party has every to put their own imprimatur on our platform. I think if it's J.D. vance, you know, as the sitting vice president, he'll largely be running on the general policy direction that Trump has set. I mean, after all, he has been helping Trump implement that policy direction. I think it'd be quite weird if he took the party in a totally, radically different direction. I'd be quite shocked if that happened.
- [59:39]
Kara Swisher
I mean, I think I'm asking you, would you be a windsock? I think, I think I'm basically asking you that. But if there's another candidate, it. How do you react to that, given you're kind of all in on Trump in this?
- [59:48]
Scott Jennings
You mean a different nominee?
- [59:50]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [59:50]
Scott Jennings
Oh, wow. Gosh, that would be a, an interesting outcome. Look, I, I think some people might run. I think it's unlikely they would win. But look, I'm a Republican. I've been a Republican my entire life. And if somebody becomes the nominee of the Republican Party and they do what I want them to do 90 or 95% of the time, and the Democrat nominee, who's gonna be a socialist, does what I want them to do 0% of the time, it's a pretty easy choice for me.
- [60:16]
Kara Swisher
All right, we'll end on that. Scott, you are smirk free, so that's good. Come on, you use a smirk. There's a smirk happening. I can see it coming. You've got like a Grinch like smirk.
- [60:29]
Scott Jennings
I hear people say this and I don't know what they're talking about, but I'll take a word.
- [60:32]
Kara Swisher
Oh, come on. That's like Jessica Rabbit. I'm not smarking, I'm just drawn that way. I'm just teasing you. Anyway, I appreciate it. Very interesting con. And again, your book is called A Revolution of Common Sense. Thank you, Scott.
- [60:48]
Scott Jennings
Thank you, Kara.
- [60:49]
Kara Swisher
Today's show was produced by Christian Castor, Roselle Kateri Yocum, Michelle Aloy, Meghan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Andrea Lopez Cruzado and Bradley Sylvester. Aaliyah Jackson engineered this episode and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're welcome. This is your Thanksgiving dinner to come. If not, wipe that Grinch smirk off your face. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. And of course, us. We'll be back on Monday with more. We are officially heading into Thanksgiving season, which back in the day when we were growing up was a time to take pride in our American history. But nowadays, what kids are being taught is very different. That's why I Love America's History by Tuttle Twins. Grab the family starter pack because it covers those pilgrims who came over here in a way that's not going to poison your children's minds and will actually make them thankful for this wonderful gift that we have been given. Pick up America's history and the whole starter pack@tuttletwins.com.