Gov. Wes Moore Talks Trump, Democrats, DOGE — and Running in 2028?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Gov. Wes Moore Talks Trump, Democrats, DOGE — and Running in 2028?"

On with Kara Swisher
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Governor Wes Moore of Maryland
Release Date: May 5, 2025

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of On with Kara Swisher, host Kara Swisher sits down with Maryland Governor Wes Moore to discuss a range of pressing topics, including the impact of the Trump administration, the challenges facing the Democratic Party, and Moore's potential future political ambitions. Governor Moore, a former combat veteran and investment banker, brings a wealth of experience and a compelling personal story to the conversation.

---

Assessing the Trump Administration's Impact

Kara initiates the discussion by addressing President Trump's 100-day mark in office and his declining approval ratings. She inquires about Moore's perspective on the current political landscape compared to Trump's inauguration.

Governor Moore emphasizes the tangible effects of the Trump administration on Maryland:

"Donald Trump was a vessel for the frustration, but he is not a vehicle for the solution. [04:15]"

He highlights issues such as economic instability, rising prices, and the retreat of allies, underscoring the administration's ideological leadership devoid of actionable solutions.

---

Due Process and the Rule of Law

The conversation shifts to the deportation case of Armando Abrego Garcia. Kara references a YouGov survey indicating Republican opposition to complying with Supreme Court orders in this case.

Governor Moore simplifies the debate to the core principle of following the law:

"Do you believe that we should follow the law? Right. It's just basically that simple. [06:49]"

He staunchly defends due process, insisting that decisions should be left to judicial authorities rather than unilateral executive actions by the President.

---

Impact of DOGE and Federal Cuts on Maryland

Maryland's significant reliance on federal jobs makes it particularly susceptible to administrative changes under Trump. Kara probes into how Governor Moore is addressing these challenges.

Governor Moore outlines Maryland's proactive measures:

"Maryland has been the most aggressive state in the country in being able to make sure that our federal workers are protected and actually streamlining our federal workers into occupations where there are available jobs within the state... [10:50]"

He details initiatives to retrain and redeploy federal employees into sectors like healthcare and education, mitigating the adverse effects of federal budget cuts.

---

Partnership vs. Transactional Politics

Kara questions Moore's evolving stance on partnership with the Trump administration, noting his shift from seeking common ground to a more confrontational approach.

Governor Moore responds by rejecting transactional politics:

"I have a real distaste for the transactional nature of politics. I don't do transactional like that. [34:33]"

He emphasizes the importance of reciprocal partnerships and criticizes one-sided political agreements that undermine state interests.

---

Achievements and Initiatives in Maryland

Highlighting Maryland's successes under his leadership, Moore discusses significant policy reforms and investments.

• Tax Reform:

  "We've been able to give the middle class a tax cut that for 94% of people in our state they either got a tax cut or saw no change in their taxes at all. [25:05]"

• Budget Cuts and Investments:

  "We ended up cutting around two and a half billion dollars, the largest cut that Maryland has made in its budget in 16 years, while making historic investments in public education and public safety. [25:39]"

• Public Safety Improvements:

  "Baltimore City, Maryland now has amongst the most impressive drops in violent crime that we have seen over the past two and a half years. [23:01]"

These initiatives demonstrate Moore's focus on delivering tangible results for Maryland residents.

---

Engaging Young Men and Bridging Cultural Gaps

Addressing the Democratic Party's struggle to connect with young men, Governor Moore shares strategies to bridge this cultural divide.

Governor Moore explains his authentic engagement approach:

"When I'm out talking to young boys, it's because they know it's authentic. They know it's real... [28:42]"

He emphasizes genuine interactions and addressing specific needs through programs like Thrive, which supports young men in the juvenile justice system, and incentivizing male participation in healthcare and education sectors.

---

Comparing Approaches of Fellow Governors

Kara prompts Moore to comment on the strategies of other Democratic governors like Gavin Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer.

Governor Moore offers candid feedback:

"I didn't listen to it. [31:34]"

He maintains his distinct approach, focusing on results and authentic leadership rather than adopting styles that may not resonate with his constituents.

---

Crisis Management and Infrastructure Projects

Discussing the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge, Moore highlights Maryland's effective crisis response and bipartisan support for infrastructure rebuilding.

Governor Moore praises the swift action taken:

"We were able to clear the federal channel in 11 weeks, completing a task that was initially projected to take 11 months. [41:09]"

He assures that the reconstruction will adhere to updated safety standards, emphasizing Maryland's leadership in managing such crises.

---

Future Ambitions and Project 2029

While initially clarifying he is not running for president, Moore reflects on Maryland's accomplishments as a potential blueprint for national progress.

Governor Moore outlines key priorities that could influence a broader political agenda:

"Increase housing options, have a strong public education system, increase economic opportunities and apprenticeship programs... [47:09]"

He advocates for bold actions to address systemic issues, urging leaders to focus on delivering substantial results for their communities.

---

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Governor Moore reaffirming his commitment to Maryland and his vision for impactful governance. Kara Swisher wraps up the conversation, acknowledging Moore's dedication and the insightful discussion on navigating political challenges and delivering state-level successes.

---

Notable Quotes:

• On Trump's Administration:
  "Donald Trump was a vessel for the frustration, but he is not a vehicle for the solution." [04:15]

• On Due Process:
  "Do you believe that we should follow the law? Right. It's just basically that simple." [06:49]

• On Partnership in Politics:
  "I have a real distaste for the transactional nature of politics. I don't do transactional like that." [34:33]

• On Authentic Engagement:
  "When I'm out talking to young boys, it's because they know it's authentic. They know it's real." [28:42]

• On Crisis Management:
  "We were able to clear the federal channel in 11 weeks, completing a task that was initially projected to take 11 months." [41:09]

---

Conclusion

Governor Wes Moore offers a comprehensive perspective on the current political climate, Maryland's resilience amidst federal challenges, and strategies for effective governance. His emphasis on authentic leadership, rule of law, and delivering tangible results paints a picture of a leader committed to meaningful progress. This episode serves as a valuable resource for listeners seeking insights into contemporary political dynamics and state-level policy successes.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Do you work out with Pete's at Hegseth because he likes.

[Wes Moore]

Oh no, no, I don't think he wants to work out with me.

[Kara Swisher]

I'd like to see a push up contest. Hi everyone From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Governor Wes Moore of Maryland. Moore is a former combat veteran, investment banker and nonprofit CEO who's charismatic and photogenic and he has a great personal story. Moore was raised by a single mom, got in trouble with the law as a kid, and then became just the third black person ever elected governor in the United States. Not surprisingly, he's on the short list for potential Democratic candidates in 2028 and more than a few Republicans seem worried about him. He is the name I hear from them more than anyone and having recently spent some time with him, I can see why. He's compelling, well spoken, just sharp as attack everything you want in a politician. And he's also very funny. People also, I noticed over this dinner stare at him, which is really interesting. You don't see that a lot with politicians, but he seems to be somewhat of a star. But of course, politics is complicated. Maryland has had to raise taxes and cut $2 billion in spending to close a $3 billion budget deficit. And with one out of 10 workers on the federal role, Maryland is particularly vulnerable to Doge cuts and the Trump administration. I'm excited to talk to him because I really do think new, fresh voices are needed in the Democratic Party, especially younger ones. And he's definitely at the top of that list. Our expert question today comes from another Democratic governor who is my favorite. Honestly. Sorry, Wes Moore and the rest of you, Maura Healey from Massachusetts. So stick around.

[Wes Moore]

Foreign.

[Kara Swisher]

Message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. With E Trade you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, zero dollar commissions and a wide range of investments. And now there's even more to love. You can get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to a thousand dollars or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.

[Wes Moore]

This podcast is supported by Google. Hi, I'm Dave, one of the product leads on Google Gemini. We just launched Gemini Canvas. It's my new go to for real time collaboration with Gemini. Write docs, edit code, get feedback Iterate all in one new interactive space. From a blank slate to a built out prototype. My favorite part, ask Gemini to leave feedback and suggestions just like you would with a teammate. Check it out for [e-mail] support for.

[Kara Swisher]

Today'S show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's just a quick jaunt or a long journey, Chevy's all electric Equinox EV has you covered with a massive 17.7-inch diagonal touchscreen. And starting at around $34,995, you can hit the road and still afford snacks. Equinox ev, a vehicle you know a value expect and a dealer right down the street. You can go EV without changing a thing. Learn [e-mail] Equinox EV the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price.

[Wes Moore]

It is on.

[Kara Swisher]

Governor Moore, thank you for coming on on.

[Wes Moore]

Oh, it was my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this.

[Kara Swisher]

I know you were, you said that. We said we were at a dinner the other night and I don't know why you said that to me to accept that you're charming because it's true. Anyway, there's a lot to talk about. Let me start by getting you to set the scene. President Trump recently hit 100 days in office. His approval ratings are cratering. His response was to call for pollsters to be investigated. So I'd love to know how you would assess where we stand today compared to what you envision when Trump was inaugurated.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I, I actually, I don't, I don't even need the poll numbers to, to know the kind of performance that he had because I'm, I'm in my neighborhoods every single day. You know, I'm going around my state and I'm seeing where we've had thousands of people laid off. And by the way, like, we're talking about people who do things like make sure that our food is safe, you know, make sure that we're not getting cyber attacks, make sure that veterans are getting their PTSD medication when they're coming back home. So it's like, so I see the impacts of this administration every single day in my state. So I'm glad the poll numbers are now kind of keeping, are now giving quantitative evidence to what we are seeing every day in our neighborhoods is that Donald Trump was a vessel for the frustration, but he is not a vehicle for the solution. Because if anything, the only thing that has now happened since he has come on board is we have watched prices rise, we have watched economic opportunities compress. We've watched our allies retreat, and we've watched people who had good, good, good jobs, good jobs that are now being challenged and being complicated because you have, you know, have an administration that's. That's leading by ideology and nothing and nothing else.

[Kara Swisher]

So I like that vessel. You practice that one vessel for frustration, but not vehicle for solution. That works.

[Wes Moore]

That's right. Like. Like, I get it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I got it. Why people were like, oh, man, you know, let's give Trump a shot. Because people are upset and they're pissed off, and they should be like, I mean, like, there's a whole lot about the system that was not worth defending, because you cannot defend the indefensible. Like, people like, I came up in a system that continued to remind me of my family how broken the system is. So, like, I get the frustration that people had, but I think people are just very quickly realizing that Donald Trump never had a plan nor an intent on actually fixing those issues.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's go through some national news items because there's been so many. One thing you have to say about them, there's been lots of news. Our Armando Abrego Garcia had been living in Maryland for over 10 years before he was deported to El Salvador. You've said this is a case about due process. It's a case about, are we gonna follow the Constitution or not? But according to a recent YouGov survey, there are more Republicans who think the administration should not comply with the Supreme Court order to facilitate his wreaths than there are those who think they should. If a large percentage of Americans don't care about due process, and it's a difficult word. It's not an easy word. I think snatch him off the street without due process. You know, a judge is probably an easier way to put it, but that's the word. Due process is the word. Where does it leave us, though, if a lot of people feel that way?

[Wes Moore]

I think the way you can really strip this down for folks is, do you believe that we should follow the law? Right. It's just basically that simple. Or do we believe in anarchy? Do we believe that everyone should just do their own thing and there are no consequences for being able to follow the law or not? This is not a question about Mr. Abrego Garcia's past. It's not a question of what happened with him and his wife. It's not a question of any of those things. It's just simply yes or no. Do you believe that we Have a rule of law that needs to be followed. Because what we're basically saying is, what I'm saying that I believe in due process, is he needs to be brought home and he should stand trial and then let a judge decide what his fate is. And if a judge says he should be sent to another country, he should be whatever. Whatever the judge files, we will follow that, because that is basically the rule of law.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you see that happening?

[Wes Moore]

No. And what does not make sense is Donald Trump unilaterally getting to say he stays, he stays, he leaves, he leaves, she leaves, he stays. Like, that's not the way this is supposed to work.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think he's coming back ever?

[Wes Moore]

We're going to keep on pushing for him to come back because I believe in the rule of law and I believe in due process.

[Kara Swisher]

And you think you'll be successful? This guy's not letting him go unless Donald Trump tells him to.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, I do. I do.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Wes Moore]

I do. I do. Because I think. Because I think that that pressure and the will of the people does matter in all of this. I think that, you know, one thing that people will continue to realize is that. That, yes. Is the President powerful? Absolutely.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Wes Moore]

Is Washington powerful? Absolutely. But right now, this is a moment where people are realizing the President's powerful. They're also realizing so are states, so are governors, and so are the people. And so I do believe that the power and the will of the people, and by the way, the will of the courts, are gonna end up winning this, winning the debt.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll see. I mean, ultimately, he wears people down. But Elon Musk, even though he's spending less time in Washington and government spending has actually gone up since Trump took office, and it looks like most of his savings are non savings and costs. He's incurred costs. Even if he leaves D.C. what they're gonna say, Doge is still active and it's closed a lot of agencies. It's created havoc everywhere. As you know, you have a lot of federal workers in Maryland. Both Maryland, Virginia have a lot of federal workers across different agencies. How do you put the impact of him on that?

[Wes Moore]

Well, you know, I mean, and there is no. There's no state who has more exposure to what's happening right now with this federal government. Exactly. Than with this DOGE project of Elon Musk's. DOGE project. NIH is in Maryland. Social Security is. Is in Maryland. We have over 260,000 federal employees in the state of Maryland. We have over 160,000 federal jobs that are housed within the state of Maryland. So the what they are doing, these are not glancing blows at Maryland. These are direct hits at us. These are direct shots that they are taking at. At my state and they're taking at my people. And so there is nobody who is experiencing this more than Maryland. No one is. No chief executive who's experiencing me. And the thing I was very clear on from Jump street is that I get the relationship between state government and federal government, and I will work with anyone, but I will bow down to no one ever. And I do think it's important for people in this moment to say we understand what they are doing and how they are trying to undermine, in many cases, not just democracy, but also legacies and livelihoods. But that does not mean that we just sit there and kowtow.

[Kara Swisher]

So what do you do is I think, I mean, this is real. I mean, even if they're ineffectual and performative and illegal, it's closing. I talk to people, and my kid goes to a public school every day. He's like, I may have to move to the Midwest. Person who works for the Agriculture department lives in D.C. in this case. But it still affects you. It is effective. You are a soft target in that regard.

[Wes Moore]

It is. But no, we're not. And here's why. Because while people are understanding the power of the presidency, they're also now seeing the power of governors. And I'll tell you a perfect example. So we have lost thousands of jobs in the state of Maryland because of these arbitrary and in some cases, illegal firings that have taken place of our public servants who work for the federal government. But what did then we decide to do? Maryland has also been the most aggressive state in the country in being able to make sure that our federal workers are protected and actually streamlining our federal workers into occupations where there are available jobs within the state of Maryland, jobs in healthcare, jobs in education, and making sure we're reducing the red tape. So if you have a person who's qualified and interested, unlike, get rid of the red tape, get them trained up, get them their certification, and get them in a classroom.

[Kara Swisher]

How many fire federal employees have you become teachers so far do you expect to become teachers?

[Wes Moore]

Oh, we know for a fact that with the portal that we've had opened up, we've already had well over 2,000 entries into it. So whether it's education, whether it's healthcare, whether it's also the private sector, we're creating pathways into the private sector, where, you know, for example, I was talking with a Tech CEO. And a Tech CEO said to me, he's like, listen, if there's a person who has a PhD and has a top secret clearance and is now unemployed, I'd like to know their name because I'd like to bring them on. And so we've just been very aggressively working with the private sector, with the public sector to make sure that our people are going to be okay. And frankly, having to get really thoughtful and aggressive when it comes to, you know, when it comes to making sure that, that we can weather this storm that we know has come on board, which is the Trump administration.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you work with Governor Youngkin of Virginia? I mean, obviously that's the other. Besides the district and I guess both. Mayor Bowser of D.C. we have, I.

[Wes Moore]

Mean, I have, I have a good relationship with, with both the mayor and the governor and a lot of my other governor and you know, the governors from around the country, Democrats and Republicans, we have not, we do not have a joint, a joint agreement arrangement with them, but I have a good relationship with these other governments.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you've smirked when you mentioned Governor, Governor Yuckin, just so you know. Why the smirk?

[Wes Moore]

Well, you know, I mean, well, listen.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, he's a Republican governor.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, but, but also, it's more than that. We're competitors, right? I mean, like, you know, it's not even just Republican. Like, I, I actually don't get into the whole Democrat Republican thing because I, that's not my background. I don't come from that. But he's a competitor and I don't like losing. So.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, so. Yeah, none of you won. Bowser won the one. The won all the, all the sp sports stuff. So sorry. So sorry.

[Wes Moore]

Oh, well, that's a whole nother story.

[Kara Swisher]

The lady ran up the middle, just so you know, from both of you, but he had more egg on his face than you certainly did.

[Wes Moore]

I actually think this is going to end up becoming a big win for the people of Maryland and a big win for the people of Prince George's County.

[Kara Swisher]

It's closer to Maryland. You're right. We're building this new stadium. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. She got everything, didn't she?

[Wes Moore]

Well, yeah, she's got a lot she's got to figure out.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, okay, fine. Whatever. She won. Trump ran on his. You would love to have that stadium, but you do have a lovely baseball stadium. The have.

[Wes Moore]

We have a fantastic baseball stand. We have the Orioles, we have the Ravens. But I completely get that the commander, the Washington commanders, when they bought the team for over $6 billion. They came in and bought the team saying we want to move back to our spiritual home of the Washington commander should be at Washington D.C. like I get it, I understand it. But when you look at the deal that we also carved out to where they are paying for the deconstruction stadium, they are paying for the. Their underwriting and serving as master contractor for the redevelopment of the area, which is going actually end up bringing even more attention and more support for the people of the community. I actually think this is gonna end up being a big win for Prince George County.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. Okay. Trump.

[Wes Moore]

And better than the situation they have right now.

[Kara Swisher]

Good runner up speech. Trump ran on his supposed economic. They weren't gonna go to Maryland. Trump ran on his supposed economic.

[Wes Moore]

And you're right, they said it when.

[Kara Swisher]

They voted Leonsis and go to Virginia. Chad Leoncis. And then he's in D.C. again, Trump ran on his supposed economic expertise. But so far as trade war, let's move to that. You used to be an investment banker with Citigroup and Deutsche. What are your colleagues in finance actually saying about this and the long term consequences of the prolonged trade war?

[Wes Moore]

I mean, some of the most colorful language that I've heard about what is going on have actually been from people who I used to work with in finance.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, tell me some of those.

[Wes Moore]

Words because they're like, this is not economics. This makes no sense. And you cannot tell me that you care about the long term deficit when you are continuing to spend at historic rates.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Wes Moore]

You can't tell me that a way to create real measurements of economic growth is by going to your core allies and partners and creating this dynamite stick of instability that you're then throwing into all negotiations. And it's hurting real people. Right. Who is actually going to be the real economic engine for our communities. It's hurting for us. It's hurting our farmers on the Eastern Shore who are now seeing that their prices are so out of whack that we have farmers who have been around for over 100 years who have now told. Told me that they're not sure if they can survive the next six months for sales. Exactly right. And we're talking our poultry farmers, our, our corn farmers, our barley farmers. Right. People who. And agriculture is Maryland's largest industry and it is directly impacting our farmers. If you think about things like our port workers who are working at the Port of Baltimore, where the Port of Baltimore really serves the entire country. Baltimore is the largest roll on, roll off port that we have in the entire country. And so when you're watching this, this huge decrease in goods that are now coming to the United States, that's less hours for our port workers, that's less reliability for our port workers. So this is hurting real people. So I'm not sure who's looking at what's going on right now and saying this is a good thing. And the problem is is that we have a policy that is not as not just ideological, it's stubborn and it's not paying attention to what people are actually seeing right now because it's an ideology that is, that is bait.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from indeed. Your business is only as strong as the people who work there and Indeed can help you find your A team. Indeed Sponsored Jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster and it makes a difference. According to data from Indeed, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Plus with Indeed sponsored Jobs, there is no monthly subscription fees, no long term contracts, and you only pay for results. How fast is it? According to their data in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed across the globe. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners on this show will get $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com on just go to Indeed.com on right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com on terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Foreign.

[Wes Moore]

This episode is brought to you.

[Kara Swisher]

By On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist. And I'm Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience studying the indicators that drive the economy and how they can have a direct impact on your investments. We know that investors have a lot of questions about the markets and the economy, and we're here to help. Join us each week as we explore questions like how do you evaluate corporate bonds? And what sectors of the stock market are outperforming? So Kathy will analyze what's happening in the bond market and at the Fed, and I'll give you our latest analysis of the equities market and the U.S. economy. And we often interview prominent guests from across the world of investing and business. So download the latest episode and [e-mail] oninvesting or wherever you get your podcast.

[Wes Moore]

Podcasts Growing a business can feel impossible. But with HubSpot's built in AI, you can get more done than ever before, which means anything's possible. Breeze Agents help you do things in seconds that used to take hours, providing the customer support of 5us, generating the content of 10us. And Breeze Copilot keeps you two steps ahead, giving you the right insights at the right time to close more deals than ever. HubSpot Impossible growth made impossibly easy. Get started today at HubSpot.com AI Democrats.

[Kara Swisher]

Are not doing very well still, even if Trump's numbers are down, Democrats are not up. And let's talk a little bit about your stance to Trump evolved very quickly in November. You were talking about finding common ground as many were emphasizing partnership with the administration. By February you said we're in full crisis situation and that it's time for all us to take a moment seriously. What made you change your, your tone? Obviously your hope for the best and prepare for the worst. But. And again, Democratic Party's favorability is at a record low. The party itself is almost completely powerless. At a federal level, maybe perhaps diagnosed the illness happening here.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's a good question and I've always believed that, you know, it's not my job to help the Democratic Party find itself. That's not why a little bit. No, no. And I don't, because, you know, I remember when I first, you know, when I was first, you know, go running for office, I ran against people who are statewide elected officials. I ran against the former head of the dnc. And then there was me, right, the person who'd never been involved in politics before. And the thing that I was telling people is, listen, what I believe in is common sense. And what I believe and what I've always been able to do is to be able to, you know, bring real solutions, you know, to real concepts. And I remember when I was, you know, when I was first running for governor, you know, my family, I had to convince them to vote for me. And it's not that we're not cool, it's just that I had to convince many members of my family to vote in the first place. So I don't come from a political background or a party.

[Kara Swisher]

So you were in this partnership mode. First of all, what made you change your tone? And you've said Democrats need to be Careful about defending the status quo because the system wasn't working. As you just noted, if you leave policy on a purely rhetorical level, what's the message they need to send? And why did you shift your message, for example?

[Wes Moore]

Well, part of it is because I think partnership actually means it goes both ways, right? It's not. If you're giving all the giving and you're not getting anything, return to be clear and to tell everybody, that's not a partnership, guys, because there's no. There's no. It's not reciprocal. And the thing that I continue to see is, you know, in our first weeks, in our first months of dealing with this, you know, I. I was literally finding out announcements about my people with news alerts. I found out that the President of the United States at a press conference said the FBI building is not going to go to the state of Maryland, which, by the way, this was a building that we had worked for a decade on, worked independent of politics through the gsa. And Maryland won that competition fair and square. A building that's going to be worth around $4 billion of economic activity, be about. Worth about 7,000 jobs. And the President of the United States said during a press conference, it's not going to go to Maryland. What am I supposed to do with that? Right. That's not a partnership. And so part of the thing that I continue to realize was that I believe deeply in partnership, and I believe deeply that you can work together with people to create better results, and partnerships do produce progress. But what I do know is this. If you're the only one given, like, dude, that's not a partnership. And so I think the thing that I am continuing to focus on is that I just want to make sure we're continuing to deliver results for the people of my state. Because I think more than anything else and more than any political talking points or whatever like that, like, I think people are exhausted by that. I'm exhausted by it. Right. And so I think you gotta be able to deliver results.

[Kara Swisher]

What's the message then? What's the met would be. You need to at least illuminate them in some fashion emotionally.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah. So the message is this, is that who's actually producing results that are better in your life and who cares? Who cares when you're thinking about that leader and you look at yourself in the mirror, does that leader actually see you? Do they want the best for you?

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Wes Moore]

Are they thinking about you and your family and your future? And so I just. I think that the thing that we've continued to learn from Trump is that the slogans are only going to go. But so far in all this, and it's why we've really continued to focus on what are the things that we can deliver for the people in our state. So for example, we talk about how, you know, we've been driving people into the workforce and specifically people, and not only, but also specifically people who arbitrarily and illegally have lost their jobs. And we've now driven Maryland to not just, you know, we've, we've increased around 100,000 new jobs since I've been the governor Maryland now that there was an epidemic, a crisis of violence that our state was dealing with. The homicide rate had nearly doubled in the eight years before I became the governor. The non fatal shooting rate did double. Baltimore City went eight straight years of 300 plus homic. Baltimore City, Maryland now has amongst the most impressive drops in violent crime that we have seen over the past two and a half years in Baltimore City. Right, right. So we're watching results that are actually happening in people's lives.

[Kara Swisher]

So results would be a word you'd use. Now you've also said the economy is the number one issue everywhere. When it comes to economic policy, though, Democrats will always be torn between the left and the center. Always. The system is broking the moderate approach, which you seem probably to represent, that doesn't promise a revolution and largely defends the economic system. Or someone like Bernie Sanders who's out with the Fight Oligarchy tour, drawing huge crowds and making the case for democratic socialism with Representative Ocasio Cortez. Like it or not, it's a bold message. What's the, what is the counteroffer that does excite people?

[Wes Moore]

Results, I think. I think in Maryland you're seeing bold results. I mean, think about it. Just in this past year we did a complete reform of our, of our tax code. And the way we really structured our entire tax code is by making sure that we were able to give the middle class a tax cut that for 94% of people in our state they either got a tax cut or saw no change in their taxes at all. And so I think what people are seeing in Maryland is you're actually having bold and bold, bold changes, but that are producing real results.

[Kara Swisher]

You also had a slash spending, correct?

[Wes Moore]

No, we did. And we ended up cutting around two and a half, you know, two and a half billion doll, which is the largest cut that Maryland has made in its budget in 16 years. However, we were able to have two and a half billion dollars worth of cuts, the largest cuts in 16 years. And still make historic investments in public education and still make historic investments in public safety.

[Kara Swisher]

So your message would be results versus kill the billionaires, essentially. So, you know, a lot of billionaires, I know you probably don't want to kill them. As we know, you ran for people who don't know you ran a. You had to deal with billionaires quite a bit. As we know, Democrats did very poorly with young men in November, Trump won Men under 30 by 16 points. Since then, you and a number of other Democratic governors are making a point to highlight initiatives to help boys and men. How do you close that cultural gulf between Democrats, the party, and young men? MAGA has positioned itself as fun, aggressive, anti censorship, anti establishment movement, while Democrats are often seen as weak, condescending, humorless. Again, putting policy aside for a moment, because a lot of young men probably understand culture intuitively, but don't necessarily know about policy. How do you reach out to them? Obviously, by being you. And there's a bunch of. There is something to that. How do you look at winning them back?

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, well, you know, essentially he's like, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not new to this. Right. Like, this is work we've been doing for. Throughout our entire administration. This has been an area where I've said, this is not a. This is not a lane. It's a lens where I have every member of my cabinet and every agency now being able to focus on this exact issue. And it includes everything from, how are we rethinking the ways we're supporting young people who are involved in our juvenile justice system? We have a program called Thrive, which is a remarkably effective program which is helping the young people in our communities, urban, rural and suburban, who have the highest propensity of either being the victim or the perpetrator of violence. What we know about them is this, is that over 98% of the participants in Thrive are boys. Right? So we've been able to put a real focus on saying, what are we doing to rehabilitate the young people that are involved in our juvenile justice system and get them reentered back into society with a better chance for success that we've been able to streamline getting more men involved in healthcare and education places where there's often been a dearth of men inside of these occupations, and actually both incentivizing and creating support systems around them as well. And so we've looked at from every single angle within our state government of saying show me the solutions and show me the investments on the things that we can lift up everybody but make sure that our young men are not being left behind.

[Kara Swisher]

So those are more troubled youth, but it's a broader cultural issue. How do you meet young men where they are culturally? Because Obama was cool. They felt an affinity for him, but the affinity is for the Joe Rogan gang. Maybe less so than recently, but.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, I think about. I think about the people who helped me, you know, become the governor. Like, again, I didn't become the governor because of the traditional political folks. I became the governor because we had this unbelievable swell of young voters and frankly, young men who, who came out and supported us. And that is still remained a core part of my base.

[Kara Swisher]

Tell me why. Policy aside, what was it? How do you meet them culturally?

[Wes Moore]

You know, why.

[Kara Swisher]

And it's look like, like, besides.

[Wes Moore]

No, and actually, I do think it's. It is. It is more than that. Even though I think it does matter that people can look and see something, not just, you know, when they can look out and see something outside of a mirror that reflects their future, it helps them to be able to look. And outside of a window, it helps them to almost feel like they can look in a mirror and see the same thing. But I do also think there is. There's something. There's something bigger than it than that. It's. It's that we actually go and see them and they know it's authentic. Like, when I'm out going out talking to young boys, it's not because I feel like it's going to gain me a couple points on my approval rating. Right. When I'm out there going out and talking about issues with young boys, it's because they know it's authentic. They know it's real, and they know it's not the issue of the day, and they know it's not because the Democrats lost men in a last election. Like, I don't give a shit about that. You know what I'm saying? Like. Like this is something that's very real for me. It's something that. It's part of the reason why I got in this thing in the first place. And so I think people can suss out authenticity and they can suss out when it's real. And that's why I think it's working here in a lot of other places where people are like, oh, yeah, me too. I'm gonna focus on young men. And it doesn't have the same kind of. It doesn't have the same kind of resonance. Sure.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean, it is the issue of the day. Of course, Democratic governors, there's a lot of them, are all seeming to be potential presidential candidates. Governor Gavin Newsom of California, Jay Pritzker of Illinois, Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan are potential presidential candidates who are different approaches to governing than you might do. Let's do a mini lightning round for a couple of them to give us your take on their different approaches. Newsom recently launched a podcast where he's having friendly conversations with people on the extreme right like Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk, and Michael Savage. I should note, it's not all MAGA guests. He also had more white guys, people like Scott Galloway, Ezra Klein, and Tim Walls. He keeps threatening to have me on, but as yet not. So you should go. He has asked and then totally ghosted me. So. Thanks, Gavin. What do you make of this kind of approach?

[Wes Moore]

I mean, I don't know. I mean, listen. I mean, I think that however people are going out and trying to, you know, reach people or talk about the things they're doing, I mean, that's cool, right? I think everybody's going to. Everybody's going to each their own.

[Kara Swisher]

I want a review of that. What did you think of that?

[Wes Moore]

Of which part?

[Kara Swisher]

Him interviewing the way he interviewed them. I mean, specifically Bannon or Kirk.

[Wes Moore]

I mean, I didn't listen to it. Oh, wow. I wouldn't do it, and I didn't listen to it.

[Kara Swisher]

So, no, I wouldn't do it. Okay, all right. I didn't listen to it. Oh, ouch. Pritzker has been very adversarial. On the other hand, a recent speech he told an audience. Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption, but I am now. These revolts cannot know a moment of peace. That's a totally different approach. Yeah, protests. What do you think of that?

[Wes Moore]

Well, you know, I mean, I think about what's happening in my state. State, right. Where my people have been under attack for these past 100 days. And it's. And it's all across the state, like, we've been setting up these job fairs for Marylanders who have lost their jobs over the past 100 days. And I'll never forget, man, I went to one in Frederick, which is a purple slash red part of Maryland. And I was walking around, I was talking with people, and there was. Someone came up to me, and he told me, he introduced himself and he said, I just want to let you know I'm a Republican.

[Kara Swisher]

Him.

[Wes Moore]

And he said, I voted for you. He said, I'm Republican. And he told me he's now been laid off. And he said he gets up every morning and he puts on a suit so his kids don't have to know that he has been laid off.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a classic. Yeah, that's crazy, right? Yeah.

[Wes Moore]

Like he's ashamed to tell his children that he's been laid off. And what I was telling, like, you have nothing to be ashamed. You did nothing wrong. This administration did. And so I just have, I look.

[Kara Swisher]

At protests, job fairs or versus protests or what?

[Wes Moore]

Well, no, I think that everybody needs to find their way of being able to mobilize. And I think in some cases it means that some people are going to go out there and they're going to hold signs on Saturdays. Some people are going to go out there and do letter writing campaigns and tell their friends not to buy Teslas. Some people are going to go out there and write letters to their representatives and tell them to actually grow a backbone and do their job. Some people are going to go out there and making sure they're supporting food pantries. And this past week I was in Montgomery county, another part of Maryland, working at a food pantry, you know, who by the way, have now saying that they are now seeing just as many requests as they saw during, during the initial moments of COVID So it's just like. So I think everybody is finding their way to be able to stand up.

[Kara Swisher]

Now. Governor Whitmer has gotten in a lot of trouble for being in that Oval Office. I think she just got caught there. But she does help secure funding for a military bas Michigan saying she's working for this Michiganers just the way you're working for Marylanders. She had to cozy up to Trump. She's getting pushback from Democrats because of it. Is that the price of getting things done? I mean, is acquiescence like that in order to get something very important, by the way, not unimportant as the governor.

[Wes Moore]

Well, listen, I will always fight for my people. Right. I will always fight for Marylanders no matter where in the state that they call home. And I know. And while I did not see what happened with Gretchen, what I do know is partnership does not work one way.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Wes Moore]

And I am not willing, if you are not willing to be my partner in the work, it makes it very difficult for me to stand up and say I'm going to be yours.

[Kara Swisher]

What if he had said, if you appear with me, I'll give you that FBI building.

[Wes Moore]

I don't do transactional like that. I just don't. I mean, like, if we are really going to build a partnership, we can build a partnership. I think one of the things that I've, I have a real distaste for in this, in this political thing that I have just recently entered into is the transactional nature of politics. I don't do that and it doesn't sit well with me.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Upwork. As a business owner, there are times when you have more things to do than hours in the day. You need a freelancer or five. But looking for a freelancer shouldn't be harder than doing the job yourself. That's where upwork comes in. Companies at every stage turn to upwork to get things done. Upwork allows you to access a global marketplace filled with top talent in it, web development, AI, design, admin, support, marketing, and a lot more, all while staying flexible. Posting a job on upwork is easy. There's no cost to join. Once you register, you can browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation. From there, you can connect with freelancers. You can take your business to the next level. Upwork makes the entire process easier, simpler, and more affordable with industry low fees. Post a job today and hire tomorrow with Upwork. Visit Upwork.com right now to post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's up w o r k.com upwork.com.

[Wes Moore]

Right now the Home Depot has spring deals under $20. So no matter what you're working on, the deals are blooming at the Home Depot with savings on plants, flowers, soil and more. Then light up your outdoor space with Hampton Bay string lights was $34.97, now only $19.99. And get the grill going with two 16 pound bags of Kingsford charcoal was $19.99, now only $17.88. Don't miss spring deals under $20 now through May 7 at the home Depot. Subject to availability, valid on select items only.

[Kara Swisher]

Ladies, you'll end up shopping for your guys deodorant, right? So try Degree's original Cool Rush. You see, last year, Degree changed the formula and men were mad. One guy even started a petition so Degree admitted they messed up and brought the original Cool Rush scent back. It's clean, crisp and actually smells like someone you want to cut. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores now. For under $4. So toss one in your cart and find out why it's the best selling men's antiperspirant for the last decade. Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory. So a broader question. Who do you think is making a compa. Not you. Doesn't have to be a Democrat. Who's making the most compelling, coherent case for American values in the face of Trump's onslaught? It could be anyone. Politicians, intellectuals, someone from pop culture. Who do you think is someone you look at and you go that.

[Wes Moore]

You know, it's. Listen, it's a good question. I don't know if I'm as up on all of it. And I honestly, like, I don't have a. I don't have a punditry answer.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Kind of punditry.

[Wes Moore]

Honestly, though, like, real talk, I love what we're doing in Maryland. No, like, I really do. Because I think.

[Kara Swisher]

Because I think in Maryland. No, no, no.

[Wes Moore]

I mean, like, I mean, like, like team Maryland. You know what I mean? Because I think we're actually producing results for the people of our state, despite.

[Kara Swisher]

I like Steve Kerr. I like Steve Kerr and his basketball team. I mostly like Steve Kerr. I don't really care about sports.

[Wes Moore]

You know, he's.

[Kara Swisher]

He's a.

[Wes Moore]

He's. He's a good dude. I mean, I like him. I like him a lot. And you're right, his team is looking good.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So every episode we get an. You need to come up with an answer for that one. Okay. Every episode we get an expert question. For this one, we got fellow Democratic governor. Let's hear it. Hey, Governor Moore, it's your friend Maura Healey, and I just have been dying to ask you this question. You're somebody who works hard, plays hard. You go late, and yet every morning you're at the Naval Academy 5:30, doing God knows what and torturing your body. Anyhow, where do you get your energy? And how do I get me some of that?

[Wes Moore]

Yo. So first, can I tell you how much I love Maury Healey?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, she's the best.

[Wes Moore]

She's.

[Kara Swisher]

No, she's like governor of Massachusetts for people who don't know.

[Wes Moore]

Sorry. Yes. Governor of Massachusetts. She's not just. She's not just, you know, one of my absolute, absolute fave. Fave governors. She's just such a good human being. She really is. So, like, I'm a huge. I'm a huge Maury Healey fan. You know, it's interesting because when I. For me. And she is right. It is true. At 06 every morning I'm at the Naval Academy and I'm thankful that even despite being an army guy and I'm a former combat veteran and I have to. But I go down to the Naval Academy every morning to go work out with the midshipmen and go work out with the team there. And it's great because for me, it's not just physically testing and physically trying, but also what it is for me, it's, it's, it's, it's mental health. It's one of the only times in the day when I'm not like tethered to a phone or tethered to a briefing or whatever like that. It's just like, it's just you and it's them and it's your body, right? And you're just going after it. And it has been one of the. When people have said, like, kind of. What's the, what's one of the really cool joys for you about being a governor? Real talk. For me, it's been the fact that I start my morning every morning at 06 in the Naval Academy. That has been one of the great joys for me of being the governor of Maryland.

[Kara Swisher]

So how do. She wants to know your workout schedule, but that's okay. We'll move on, so.

[Wes Moore]

Oh, no, but that's the thing. It's like every day, every day they gonna give you something else. You know what I mean? Like some days we're gonna go out, we're gonna go do a, you know, do a multi mile run. For some days we're gonna go hit the weight room. For some days we're gonna go push sleds for some days, you know, we'll, we'll go out and do the Versa machine like it is, it changes every single day because actually one of the strength coaches is the person who puts it all together. So shout out to Fitz who keeps me straight.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, so the Francis Scott Key bridge collapsed after it was hit by a container ship. And now new bridge is scheduled to be, very briefly, an update on that. Is the Trump administration helping or hurting? Is there any way to rebuild it faster? Where is that right now? Very briefly.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, well, you know, I'm really proud that Maryland really put on a case study on how to respond in a time of crisis. Because you're right that, you know, two or two in the morning, when my phone rang on it, you know, we were told that morning that just clearing the federal channel would take 11 months. And we got it done in 11 weeks. And we are still able to find all the bodies of the individuals who we lost and return them to their families and make sure they got the closure that they needed, make sure we took care of all the port workers and their families and the small businesses. So that was a true crisis that I think the state of Maryland really navigates way through remarkably. And we're thankful that even the support that we got from Congress, it was bipartisan support for the 100% cost share because I told them that it took over 10 years to build that bridge initially. Right. And I told them we've got to get it done faster. We've got to make sure we're producing a result that's going to be safe and we're thankful that Congress has given the support. So we set on track now.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't anticipate any problems?

[Wes Moore]

There should be no issues because this has already been codified by Congress. And so we are moving full steam ahead to ensure that we can get the Francis Scott Key Bridge built as quickly as possible with all the safety parameters that are going to be required. Because we also know that the bridge that was built in 1975 is going to require new safety parameters there for a bridge that's built in 2025. So. But we're going to make sure we do that.

[Kara Swisher]

And so you don't feel that there's any. There's going to be any pushback on that.

[Wes Moore]

We are very thankful that Democrats and Republicans in Congress have said that they want to get this thing done.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. We're going to wrap the interview by talking going back to national ambitions. Obviously, we can't ignore them. You're on the short list for Democratic presidential candidates in 2028. George Clooney says you're his new fave. I don't know if you know that Stephen Smith said he'd campaign for you. If he's not campaigning for himself, he might run against you. Plenty of other party bigwigs think you have what it takes. I do know Republicans are worried about you. As I told you at dinner, they seem to be focused on you quite a bit. Obviously, Maryland is one of the bluest states in the country and there's lots of issues they can push out. One of them that you and I discussed was the New York Times report about the Bronze Star. The paperwork hadn't gone through.

[Wes Moore]

The Bronze Star that I received that.

[Kara Swisher]

You did receive that. Now you have, correct? Correct.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah. Oh, that is correct, yes. In fact, the United States army, once they realized that there was a mistake within the paperwork Corrected it in last November. What ended up happening was when I was told about it by a person who's now a three star general, that I was going to receive it, he had all the authorizations that he thought that were going to be necessary and required. And frankly, I just know I just focused my time when I got home. I was just thankful that I was able to get home and that I got home safely. So.

[Kara Swisher]

And are you worried about being turned into a weakness, fairly or not?

[Wes Moore]

No, no, no. I, I'm, I'm thankful for my service. I'm thankful for the service that I did. I'm thankful for the service I did with the other paratroopers, you know, when I was leading paratroopers in Afghanistan in a combat zone. And, and if any, you know, people want to have conversations about my service, I am, I, I'm very ready for that conversation.

[Kara Swisher]

But you're aware they've done it, John Kerry and Tim Walls and everyone else in some fashion, correct?

[Wes Moore]

I'm aware. But I'm very thankful for my service that I was able to make at home and I'm thankful for the work that I did with the other soldiers in Afghanistan.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, so last question. What should Project 2029 be? I mean, you don't have to call it that because it would be stealing from the Republicans, which is fine, I guess. So the best case scenario for you and the Democrats take back the White House and both chambers of Congress. What would be the priorities for you, even if you were president, to undo the damage done by the Trump administration or something fresh and new. So if you had to say Project 2029, what would it be for Wes Moore? What are the most important things?

[Wes Moore]

You know, it's not a real focus because I'm not running, but I'm running for reelection in 26. But the thing that I do know is.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you say you're not running for president? You don't know if you're running?

[Wes Moore]

I'm not, I'm not running. But, but I mean. But, but I am running for reelection in 26.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Wes Moore]

But the thing that I do know is if you look at what we've done in Maryland, I think it's actually an important roadmap.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Wes Moore]

That people are going to be paying attention to because. And I think the people in Maryland seem to like our numbers are strong. People in Maryland seem to like what we're doing. The fact that we've been able to raise the minimum wage. Right. The fact that we have driven Maryland to the lowest, to historically low unemployment. Rates. The fact that we did the largest mass party in the history of the United States of America, 175,000 pardons for misdemeanor cannabis evictions. The fact that we followed up with expungement reform and being able to clean the records for individuals who are sitting there and still being punished for something that in some cases happened decades ago for misdemeanors. The fact that we've been able to create the first service year option in the history of the United States where every single Maryland high school graduate now has a chance to have a year of service to the state of Maryland. The fact that we now have created the first state legislation, first ever state led place based investment strategy when it comes to combating childhood poverty and making childhood poverty history within the state of Maryland. I think we have done some things that have been really thoughtful, really creative and we've been able to drive real results in people's lives. And I think that's what actually resonates with the folks in our state.

[Kara Swisher]

So what's the through line in that? Is what if you were. I mean, you're saying you're not running. I assume that's yet, but you don't have to answer it. It's fine, I don't care. This is a stupid game.

[Wes Moore]

I'm not running.

[Kara Swisher]

What is the through line? You're not running yet, but what, okay, you're not running. What is the through line in that? When you say that, that's my last question for you. What is the through line of what's happening in Maryland that has implications that could be rolled out across the U.S. be bold.

[Wes Moore]

Be bold. You know, we only have but so long in these seats. You know, I, I have a clock that sits on my desk and it tells me right Now I got 638 days left until the end of my first term. And I'm gonna run it back, I'm gonna ask the people for a second term. But, but, but you only have but so much time here. Don't waste a single day. Go. Be bold, right? And if there are things that you know that you can address, if you can actually focus on things like increasing housing options and making sure you're getting rid of this dearth of housing that our communities continue to deal with. If you can actually focus on things like having a strong public education system and making sure that we're not completely condemning our children because the neighborhoods that they live in, about the schools that they're going to attend, if you can actually do things like increase economic opportunities and apprenticeship programs and give people a better pathway to long term economic success. If you're not in the seat focusing on that every day, then why are you in the seat in the first place? What are you there for? And so my whole thing is be bold.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, Governor Moore, thank you so much.

[Wes Moore]

Thank you so much. Good to see you again.

[Kara Swisher]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor, Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Special thanks to Annika Robbins. Our engineers are Requon and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get results. I still don't think that's quite the message we want to send. If not, you don't get a stadium. You're the runner up. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.