← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:00]
Tarek Panja
Just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing. Because nothing like the World cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and your incredible diaspora you've got there or the fans who will be traveling there when they get together. This is a magical thing.
- [00:33]
Kara Swisher
Hi, everyone from New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. The US is just days away from hosting the equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in the span of a month. I'm talking, of course, about the FIFA World Cup. The US Is co hosting alongside Mexico and Canada. It's the world's largest sporting event and this year's is the biggest in history, with 48 teams playing more than 100 games across the three countries. It's also arguably the most controversial. That's saying a lot, given FIFA's reputation for corruption and scandal. Exorbitant ticket prices, the war in Iran and fears of immigration sweeps are so far getting more attention than the upcoming games. And President Trump, the winner of FIFA's cynical Peace Prize, is all but guaranteed to insert politics into the picture. I've got three experts here to talk about the drama around this year's World Cup. Rachel Bachman is a senior sports reporter at the Wall Street Journal, where she's been covering the lead up to this year's tournament. Will Leach is a contributing editor at New York Magazine and the founder of the sports blog Deadspin. And Tarek Panja is a global correspondent at the New York Times with a focus on where money, geopolitics and crime intercept with sports. He's also covered six prior World Cups. I think it's really important as a business story. I think FIFA has been one of the more appalling international organizations, especially giving Trump that peace prize. But the corruption, the ticket prices, everything else has sort of been riveting. And I'm really interested why fans who are at the heart of this, especially fans that don't have the means that more wealthy people have, can't just go and enjoy this stuff in the way they should. All right, let's get into our conversation. Our expert question comes from my Pivot co host and noted soccer fan. He never stops talking about it. Scott Galloway. Don't go anywhere.
- [02:29]
Rachel Bachman
Ready to soundtrack your summer with Red
- [02:31]
Will Leach
Bull Summer All Day Play?
- [02:33]
Rachel Bachman
You choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best.
- [02:35]
Kara Swisher
Are you a festival fanatic, a deep
- [02:38]
Rachel Bachman
end dj, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen
- [02:42]
Kara Swisher
playlist and put your summer on track.
- [02:45]
Will Leach
Red Bull Summer All Day play.
- [02:47]
Rachel Bachman
Red Bull gives you wings.
- [02:49]
Kara Swisher
Visit RedBull.com BrightSummerAhead to learn more.
- [02:52]
Rachel Bachman
See you this summer. When it comes to home improvement, even the most experienced DIYer has a limit.
- [03:02]
Kara Swisher
I'm not going to come in here with the blowtorch and get it hot and solder and put the copper pipes. I'm not doing it. I called a very nice man to handle it, when to call the experts and when to do it yourself.
- [03:15]
Rachel Bachman
That's this week on Explain it to Me. Find new episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts.
- [03:26]
Tarek Panja
Lyme disease is one of the fastest growing threats to human health around the world. It's often difficult to diagnose. It may be difficult to treat. And now we have a vaccine that is safe and effective in preventing it. That is, we had a vaccine back in the early 2000s, but then the Lyme vaccine became a cautionary tale. That's this week on Unexplainable. Wherever you get your podcasts, It is on.
- [04:02]
Kara Swisher
Rachel, Will and Tarek, thanks for coming on on.
- [04:05]
Rachel Bachman
Great to be here.
- [04:06]
Will Leach
Thank you for having us.
- [04:07]
Tarek Panja
Thank you for having me.
- [04:08]
Kara Swisher
So American soccer has come a long way since it last hosted a World cup in 1994. It's a very long time ago. But for the uninitiated, uninterested, why is the World Cup a great news story from a cultural, geopolitical and business point of view? Rachel, then Will and then Tarek.
- [04:24]
Rachel Bachman
One of the most interesting things is the World cup is the biggest event in, you know, the headquartered country is the US this year and it's not the number one sport in the US but it is the number one sport in the rest of the world. So that alone makes it interesting. Well, yeah.
- [04:38]
Will Leach
And you know, this is a sport that's watched everywhere, right? Like there's nothing niche about soccer. If anything, the only place that's niche is here in a lot of ways. I watch this in the fjords of Norway or the, you know, the deserts of Egypt, really across the world. Every eye is going to be on this event. No matter what your political circumstances or your demographics or everything, everyone is always watching the World Cup.
- [04:59]
Tarek Panja
All right, Tarek, Nothing is as big as this thing. I was just watching a video of Kerala in India and there was a 50 meter banner for the Argentinian national team that's been created there and thousands of people getting to work. Just a little glimpse of how big this thing is. I don't know where you guys are Sitting there in the United States of America, you think the Olympics is big. It has nothing on this. The emotion, the passion and just the virality of this is gonna be at a different level to anything that American sports fans are used to.
- [05:34]
Kara Swisher
There's always controversy around FIFA and the World cup, and that was especially true the last two tournaments hosted by Russia and Qatar. Tarek, what's different about the buildup in criticisms this time? Cause here they are again, differences.
- [05:47]
Tarek Panja
This is the United States hosting, ostensibly a democracy, so different to Qatar and slightly different to Russia. But there's been a lot of controversy here. We have issues related to the ice actions in the US and the people they've been targeting. A lot of those people will be soccer fans, will be football fans, as we call them here. They'll be coming from all over the world, all be in the United States hoping to go to games. I remember last summer the US Hosted the Club World cup and there were Brazilian teams there, for example. And I talked to some fans of Flamengo, which is Brazil's most popular team, who were living in Boston. Now. They were going to go in convoy to watch the games last summer. And at the last minute they thought, hang on, this might not be a good idea. We don't want to be so visible driving in this big convoy of Brazilians to this soccer match. That tells you that's one of the controversies. Sure, the others will get into them. Of course, Iran is coming to the World cup. At least we think they are. This is the first World cup in history where a host is at war with one of the participants right now. So we've got the issues over visas and not just for Iran, but for, for other nations. I'm hearing other nations are struggling to, to get their visas in time for the World Cup. That's another one. And I'm sure the guys can talk about ticket pricing and sundry other issues related to this World Cup.
- [07:13]
Kara Swisher
So fans, of course, are complaining around the world about the cost of tickets. Rachel, for the first time ever, FIFA is using demand driven or dynamic ticket pricing. The result is even nosebleed seats for some early games cost more than $1,000. That's many times more expensive than previous World Cups. How do we know about how FIFA decided on these record high prices? What do we know about it?
- [07:35]
Rachel Bachman
We know very little. And that's part of the mystery of fans and part of fans frustration. Right. So one of the distinctive qualities of this World cup is that FIFA didn't issue a list ticket prices. It just simply started dropping them on its website in these drips and drabs. And when fans, if they were lucky enough to gain access at early times on that website, they didn't know how many tickets would be left. They didn't know if that was all they were looking at, was going to be all for the entire tournament, or if there would be future tickets dropped. They didn't know if the prices would rise or fall. So fans have expressed a lot of frustration about just the mystery surrounding even the sales process of these tickets.
- [08:14]
Kara Swisher
Now, you wrote that FIFA is, quote, leveraging the potent cocktail of American World cup to pack its war chest with money. Talk about who controls this organization, because we're talking about a projected $11 billion in revenue for what is a notoriously corrupt organization. And of course, the president, FIFA's president, called the US the most developed entertainment market in the world and said ticket prices had to be priced accordingly. Meaning we can take your money. I assume that's a version of that.
- [08:39]
Rachel Bachman
I mean, ostensibly who controls FIFA is the 211 member federations, the countries around the world who belong to FIFA. But effectively it's the FIFA Council headed by Gianni Infantino, the president of FIFA. So he and a handful of top FIFA leaders really make most of the decisions. The war chest they're packing, as I mentioned, will eventually be spread out among many of those nations. And that's one of the reasons why Infantino has enjoyed a lot of support during his administration, because he's increased that amount of money that he's been spreading around the globe. And that's one of the opportunities he sees, among others, is the ability to leverage the US's incredible buying power, which is far outstrips what it was even in 94, to increase those disbursements around the world even further.
- [09:29]
Kara Swisher
So it's a money grab, essentially. Now, Tarek, FIFA has also set up its own ticket resale market where it gets 30% cut on all transactions. Other countries have very strict laws about reselling tickets, especially in Europe. The US does not. That's why you're seeing million dollar price tags for tickets. The final game, for example. So how is FIFA's second market exacerbating frustration from fans?
- [09:50]
Tarek Panja
This thing's remarkable. I think the word cash grab was used. And FIFA's justification for this is because, as you said, secondary markets are not only legal, but promoted and popular. In the United States, they are. In Mexico, for example, you can't do this. So tickets were taken off their secondary market for games in Mexico. Mexico has strict laws. One of the co hosts. Now FIFA is saying, well look, if this is happening, why should people outside of the game be making all of this money? We will do it, but they've done it and they've done it on steroids. Because of the 15% charge from this seller, 15% from the buyer, 30% of those ticket fees will be going to FIFA, this non profit organization in Switzerland. Now, the kind of rapaciousness, this need for all of this money. Rachel has described how FIFA works. I guess that they've got these 211 members. I would argue that FIFA has too much money already. It doesn't know what to do with it. It made seven and a half billion from the last cycle with Qatar and it's dispersing this money, not on a needs basis. The same amount to every country, whether you're Brazil, whether you're San Marino, whether you're the Democratic Republic of Congo, you get the same amount of money. And every four years, hey, there's an election. Who are you going to vote for? This is not for the benefit of soccer. Gian Infantino and FIFA say 90% of this money goes into football and into soccer. But is it going to soccer in the right way or is this just a way of sort of feathering the nests of football associations and I guess other fat cats? And just one final point in terms of the power Rachel mentioned, the FIFA Council. This is a completely toothless body. It meets three or four times a year, often not in person, maybe a zoom meeting. Each of those members gets a minimum of $250,000 a year just to show up at this virtual meeting or in person meeting. Nothing is really discussed in any meaningful way. Decisions have already been taken by the most powerful people, probably a handful of three, five men outside of this with Gianni Infantino and the regional soccer heads. And that is how soccer works. And then the show rolls on.
- [12:16]
Kara Swisher
So will FIFA is right that Americans are used to big markups to resale tickets and dynamic pricing for live events. We also see dynamic pricing for airline tickets, ride sharing prices, hotel rooms, even grocery stores. This seems like a tipping point in some way. According to the Athletic, there are still thousands of tickets for sale. The US opener against Paraguay. If market isn't bearing the higher ticket prices, then why are prices so high? And I'd love you to compare them to games in Canada and Mexico, for example.
- [12:44]
Will Leach
Yeah, one of the interesting things about this too is, you know, FIFA is also controlling the supply of these tickets. And so I'm based out of Athens, Georgia, so I'm covering the games in Atlanta. There is a game at like 2:30 in the afternoon on a Wednesday that has a 450 minimum pricing. I feel comfortable saying that is not the market even look at a lot of these resale sites. There are not actually that many tickets even available. There are big open swaths of the stadium where you couldn't buy tickets if you wanted to. That makes a lot of people think that FIFA still artificially not unleashing these tickets, not putting out a lot of these tickets to make it look like there is this massive demand. The problem is, is you can try that for a while. Eventually they're not going to let these tickets, theoretically anyway, not actually let these venues be empty. That's why when people keep asking me that, the number one question people ask me about the World cup is, seriously, why is this so expensive? I they just want to say, just wait, wait.
- [13:40]
Kara Swisher
They're officially quashing spaces so that it seems like there's more space.
- [13:44]
Will Leach
And part of the reason they can do this too is because, you know, this is not like the NFL has to come back next year, Baseball has to come back next year, then he has to come back next year. FIFA is showing up and they're like, they're getting their money and they're getting out. And I think that, you know, as Rachel kind of spoke about before, a lot of this is FIFA. This has been the World Cup. They've been waiting for. They've been waiting to get this US Market. They've been waiting to get everything they can out of this. They are going to milk every single penny out of this that they can because they're not worried about, oh, well, I hope the US Soccer fans don't get ingress and don't buy tickets. In four years. They're going to be all, all onto the next thing. And I think, I think that that's the strategy.
- [14:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. New Jersey and New York have subpoenaed FIFA over the prices, whether it misled fans about ticketing categories. By the way, California is also looking into the ticketing schemes and European fans have lodged a formal complaint in Brussels. Rachel, we're just a few days from the kickoff and could these have any impact on the tournament, on the prices and FIFA more broadly?
- [14:43]
Rachel Bachman
Well, I think in the short term on the tournament, no, I don't think anything's going to happen before the tournament. On the prices, probably no either. I mean, it's quite possible there might be some settlement over the long term. And in terms of FIFA's behavior, you know, they claim that they've sold 90% of the roughly 6 million tickets available. Which, you know, at the prices they're offering them, sounds pretty good if that is the case. So I don't see them short of some massive injunction. And especially since, as Will pointed out, they're not coming back here anytime soon. I don't see them necessarily altering their behavior.
- [15:23]
Kara Swisher
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- [19:27]
Tarek Panja
It's important because what the World cup is is not just what happens on the field, it is the backdrop. It's the pageantry of a World cup game with these supporters who are coming from wherever they come from all over the world. Particularly. I found recently tournaments have been enlivened by the presence of South American fans. For example, Argentines in Qatar were magical. That World cup obviously had a real tough backdrop to it. With the build up, we don't need to get into all of the various issues with Qatar. Europeans stayed away in ways that they didn't in Russia four years earlier, and there was a worry that the atmosphere would suffer. And then here come the Argentines. Thousands upon thousands of these people. Their team made it to the final and won it. And the sound of Argentines all over Doha is still ringing in my ears. In fact, where they were staying in Doha, they stayed in this migrant worker residential zone, I think it was called Al Wakra, outside of Doha. And they are so fondly remembered there that the neighborhood has been renamed Argentine Neighborhood. So that's what it's still called.
- [20:43]
Kara Swisher
Oh, wow.
- [20:44]
Tarek Panja
The fans are a big part of the story.
- [20:45]
Kara Swisher
You also profiled Argentinian fans who are taking on thousands of dollars in debt to come to the US So when you spoke to them, some still hadn't bought their tickets yet. They're hoping to find some when they get there. What does it say not only about the true cost for international fans, but also the depth of passion that FIFA is able to monetize?
- [21:04]
Tarek Panja
Yeah, there's a sense that their kind of passion and their almost obsession with this thing is being abused by FIFA. One of the things that separate this from, say, hotels and airlines is FIFA is a monopolist. There's no other official seller of World cup tickets. It's this or nothing. And these people, they feel like their protagonist, their team needs them in the stadium to do well. They come as a package deal. Messi on the field and his friends and us on the sidelines. And I couldn't believe some of the things people are doing, like maxing out as many credit cards as possible, borrowing from friends, neighbors. The guy's holding a raffle. A woman was talking about selling her car, like, live for today, live for this World Cup. It happens every four years. We live in a topsy turvy country where everything is possible anyway economically. Let's just try and do this, because guess what? This is one of the things that we are known for. This is one of the things that Argentina is known positively for around the world. And we gotta go and represent. And there were some people who were saying, look, look, even if I don't get a ticket, I need to be near there. I need to be with my people. And that's part of it as well, the journey.
- [22:31]
Kara Swisher
Well, one of the things, I don't feel like we're gonna name something in Argentine neighborhood in this country for Right now for international travelers, there's a lot of confusion about, as you said, visa requirements and steep fees imposed by the Trump administration. Of course, ICE agents will be at stadiums. DHS is offering to send agents to help local police departments with security, but it's denied plans for major sweeps. How real is that fear of coming here?
- [22:55]
Will Leach
I think it's kind of undeniable. You know, they, for the record, this was also a concern with the club World cup and it didn't really turn out then. But the fact is, is, you know, it speaks to among one of the we haven't even gotten to the issues of how the United States is currently seen around the world. Right now it's going to be hosting the World Cup. But I mean, this is at the center of it. Right. The idea of. Sure. The administration says that ICE will just be helping out and they won't be actually doing enforcement. I would not blame anyone for perhaps being having a touch of skepticism. I think about that along with a lot of other things. But also, even if they don't, the fact that that is something that is at the centerpiece of any world traveler that would want to come to the games that were supposed to, like this was the World Cup. That was supposed to be the one that went smoothly. Right. There was so much worry about Qatar. There was so much worry about Russia. This was supposed to be the US not just like taking its place.
- [23:46]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. We weren't supposed to be the problematic country.
- [23:48]
Will Leach
Yes. And also this was we talked about 1994 earlier. This was supposed to be the culmination of the American soccer mom. Like, this was something that they've been building for such a long time. You remember, the MLS started after the 94 World Cup. And so a lot of that was all based in this notion that this was supposed to be one of the best generations of the U.S. men's team. This is supposed to all be building up for this culmination moment. And the US Is, I think, perceived as perhaps not at its best right now.
- [24:17]
Kara Swisher
No, we're not the best world citizens. So, Rachel, speaking of that, a recent survey found that 80% of hotels in host cities are not seeing the bookings they forecasted international tourism to the US which was also way down last year. 4 million fewer people visited than the year prior. The first drop since COVID Trump and his policies are the big reason why cities and local businesses have been promised a windfall from global tourism during the World Cup. And if it doesn't materialize, what are the knock on effects?
- [24:43]
Rachel Bachman
Well, one of the immediate knock on effects is a lot of the host cities are not going to turn a profit or at least pay for their expenses, which are pretty considerable. One of the reasons why you're seeing, for instance, in Boston and in New York, these really high train costs that have made all the news, you know, 150 doll, $100 for train rides that usually cost, you know, 12 or 13 bucks, is because the host cities are trying to recoup whatever money they can. So that's sort of the immediate knock on effect. And longer term, of course, you know, there's the tourism effect, right? I mean, America is usually a very attractive place to visit. It's pretty unwieldy to visit. But this certainly had the promise of something that had a pretty rosy glow to it. But given the backdrop, I think, I think it's fair to say that that glow hasn't quite materialized. Sometimes when the games start, it changes. But, you know, I spoke with one fan in Amsterdam who had been to a couple previous World Cups, and he said, you know, I'm going to watch in the street, put a TV out and have my neighbors come and watch because I just don't want to go to the US Right now.
- [25:42]
Kara Swisher
So do you sense is the cost or is it Trump?
- [25:45]
Rachel Bachman
I think it's a variety of factors. I mean, I think the number one reason is the cost because if people are hardcore enough soccer fans and they really want to come here, I think most people will try to make it. But certainly, you know, Trump is not terribly popular in Europe. And the Dutch fan I talked to said that was his line in the sand. He didn't want to go to an event on American soil given the political backdrop right now.
- [26:09]
Kara Swisher
So the US Is also in the middle of a war with Iran. As you noted, the Iran men's team is set to play as three group stage games in the US as of our taping late Wednesday, no one with the team has been issued US Visas that reported they may get them Friday. Their training base was also moved to Mexico. Tarek, as you said, this marks the first time in World cup history the host country has been at war with a qualified nation. How complicated do you think this is going to get?
- [26:32]
Tarek Panja
I think it's extremely complicated. I was with the Iranian team last week in Turkey where they've been at a training camp, and my overwhelming sense was I was feeling very sorry for these players. So the World cup happens every four years. It is such the high point of, of their lives. And this fog of uncertainty will remain over their presence until the ball is kicked in that first game against New Zealand for them in Los Angeles. So you, you've mentioned they're now in going to go to Mexico, they're going to Tijuana. They were supposed to be in Tucson, in Arizona, where they were going to train. Logistically, it's closer to la, but that is across the border. They almost have a black mark against them. There's 48 teams at the World cup, but this one is going to have to go through all of these hurdles. Meanwhile, we're having so many comments, both from American officials and Iranian officials, that are contradictory. Like the same guy who says, we won't be coming. Then we'll say, well, of course FIFA will have to create the conditions because we qualified on merit. We should be playing. This is FIFA's competition, not the US's competition. Now, the next stage, as you said, there is these visa issues. They need to be issued. What I understand is it's not player by player. They've applied as a group. They'll get these visas as a squad of players, both for Mexico, multiple entry for Mexico and the us because of the nature of the tournament and their tournament. And, yeah, it just feels very much a dampener. Right. For them, their people.
- [28:27]
Kara Swisher
We saw some players on staff of the Iranian women's soccer team apply to defect to Australia during this year's Women's Asia Cup. Most of them withdrew those applications and two players chose to remain. Could that happen here?
- [28:39]
Tarek Panja
Of course it could. Of course it could happen. Because what we're talking about with the women in Australia was they were overseas at an international soccer tournament and
- [28:55]
Will Leach
it
- [28:55]
Tarek Panja
happened straight after the war. And there was, in their case, it was about how they behaved during the national anthem. I think they didn't sing the national anthem. There was. There was uproar on social media in Iran, and I think there were people in Australia, human rights groups, et cetera, who were talking to them. And that led to a group of them deciding to stay back and apply for asylum. And that number then was reduced to, I think, maybe only two or three. By the end of it, some decided to go back. Now, can you imagine the pressure on these people? People, if, yes, you're going to claim asylum, you're overseas, but guess what? Most of your family is still in Iran.
- [29:36]
Kara Swisher
Right? Exactly right.
- [29:37]
Tarek Panja
There's huge pressures on these people and to try and almost make them political figures. I can understand exactly why they would be seen that way, because they're wearing the shirt, they're seeing, they are the Symbol of this country at war with the United States in the biggest event in the world. This is hard.
- [29:57]
Kara Swisher
Although I suspect a lot of Americans are not as angry as Iran as Trump is. Will, you had a piece in New York magazine how conversations around politics and sports are about to get a lot louder. This will be a Trump World Cup. He will put himself at the center of it. What does it mean for the average American athlete to have to navigate US Politics on the world stage? And also casual fans who just want to root for their home team.
- [30:20]
Will Leach
Yeah, I actually think we got a pretty good example of this with the hockey team, actually, in the Olympics, where the idea of not it was. I think it was a lot about Cash Patel, you know, pounding his drinks, his beer in there. But the thing that actually, I think hit a lot of people even harder was when Trump called in and essentially insulted the women's team and kind of mocked the women's team in this moment, where instantly, you know, one of the things that was really interesting is, you know, think about these American hockey players. They had not won gold medals since the famous Miracle on Ice team. You'd have to imagine all of them like, oh, my gosh, we won the gold. We are going to never have to buy a drink in this country again. And a week later, people were, like, barely cheering for them on Saturday Night Live. And it became this instantly polarizing thing. And what's interesting, too, is this is a casual fan event. Like, certainly the hardcore fans. I love soccer. Everybody here on this panel, we're all into soccer. We're really into it. But, like, the Olympics, the World cup is kind of for casuals, right? That's part of the fun of this, is you can kind of come in, people can kind of pay attention, really, really get into, and then move on. The Olympics are similar in this way. And we saw that with the hockey team. I think there were, frankly, a lot of new hockey fans minted from heated rivalry, and then came over to go watch the men's team, got really excited and then learned, oh, no, they're not actually fictional characters from this show that I like. They actually have their own opinions, and they're gonna react differently in these situations. That kind of test that I wouldn't say the hockey team failed, but it was an impossible one to pass. I would say is the sort of thing that is undeniably something you're going to see with members of this US Team. If they. That's. If they advance, you've got to keep
- [32:01]
Kara Swisher
Cash Patel out of the room. Is really, what has to happen?
- [32:04]
Will Leach
Well, I, I, I, I feel pretty confident that Cash Patel's probably not watching a lot. He's more of a hockey guy, I think. He's more kind of more.
- [32:11]
Kara Swisher
Is there beer there? He'll be there. Rachel. All of this raises obviously a big question about security around the stadiums. The US is hosting equivalent of 78 Super Bowls in about a month. But DHS Officials admitted that 75 day shutdown early this year had a disruptive preparations for the tournament. How prepared is the US to protect fans and teams at these games at this moment?
- [32:32]
Rachel Bachman
Well, this is part of the federal responsibility of hosting the tournament. And you know, the proof is when the games start, right. An example of this was in 2024, the Copa America soccer tournament, where some fans really overran the stadium in Miami, one of the stadiums that also will host World cup games. That absolutely cannot happen anything like that this time because the stakes are even higher. And you know, as was the case with, with that match, there might be situations where there are, you know, thousands of fans that don't have tickets to the game but are just caught up in the moment and, you know, celebrating. And I don't know that we'll really know what the prep is like until one of these huge group stage games happens. Like for instance Portugal, Colombia, which is also actually at that stadium in Miami. That's a group stage game that I wrote about that has now a get in resale ticket price of starting at $2,500. That's not FIFA's fault, that's purely demand driven. But you know, a game like that will be an early test of just how ready the US security apparatus is.
- [33:33]
Tarek Panja
And then they have the Scots rolling in, of course against Brazil. So again, that stadium is going to get a lot of, lot of tests. Just on this though, I would say that tournament in 2024, that was not a FIFA tournament. FIFA, for all the criticism, one thing it's very good at is organizing World Cups. It's got a lot of history in doing this. I've always said you can host this tournament on the moon. They just pack up, they've got a book. The World cup, it works like this. The security searches the perimeter, all of this, that game. And it was remarkable. There were people clambering into the stadium, climbing through air conditioning vents to try and get into that stadium. I just don't think, however much the desire to get into this stadium is, any of these guys will get anywhere near a FIFA World cup stadium in the U.S. miami included. But I guess we're gonna have to see that.
- [34:39]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [34:42]
Will Leach
Foreign.
- [34:47]
Rachel Bachman
Hi, I'm Maria Sharapova, host of the Pretty Tough podcast.
- [34:50]
Kara Swisher
Each episode I sit down with high achieving women to discuss the pursuit of excellence without apology. This week, Model Sports Illustrated, CoverGirl and
- [34:58]
Rachel Bachman
entrepreneur Ashley Graham talks about the time she almost quit. I called my mom and I said, mom, I just, I'm not going to do this anymore. And she told me, no, you are
- [35:08]
Kara Swisher
going to stick this out.
- [35:09]
Rachel Bachman
Your body is going to change someone's life every decade. You're going to go through something different. So be really happy with who you
- [35:15]
Kara Swisher
are right now because things change.
- [35:18]
Rachel Bachman
Check out Pretty Tough new episodes on Wednesdays. You can watch it on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app.
- [35:29]
Kara Swisher
Support for this show comes from Teleport in the AI era, one of the biggest questions is how to contain agent behavior in your production infrastructure. In Teleport's survey of more than 200 infrastructure leaders, the company found that those confident in their AI deployments have more than twice the incident rate of those that aren't 72% versus 33%. Let's talk security basics. The most frequent causes of data breaches are human error and compromised credentials. But in the AI era, the challenge is that agents with broad privileges can find these credentials and gain access to sensitive data. Teleport establishes a unified identity layer for humans, machines and agents that is cryptographically bad, which enables agents to be controlled and contained with the same rigor that you apply to other actors in your infrastructure. Security is complicated, but with Teleport, it doesn't have to be. Download the free report@goteleport.com onwithkara.
- [36:29]
Tarek Panja
Big news this week for all my Gordon Geckos, my Robin Hooders, my Claude squad, Anthropic, which is newly the most valuable AI company in Svorld, announced it would be going public. That news follows reporting that OpenAI plans to go public as soon as September
- [36:45]
Will Leach
and that that news follows reporting that
- [36:48]
Tarek Panja
SpaceX, which also considers itself an AI company, will be going public in maybe just a few weeks from now. Welcome to the era of the Omega ipo. We are about to see millionaires, billionaires, and yet probably even the world's first trillionaire created overnight. And yes, it's that guy. This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy Chainsaw. But all the tech bros who are gonna make all the money, they need our money way more than we need their products and we're gonna remind you why on Today Explained from Vox.
- [37:28]
Kara Swisher
So let's zoom out and look at the big picture, the issues, what they add up to. Now, when you look at everything, there's a lot of flashing red lights around the tournament just days before kickoffs. What's the stake if this World cup falls way short of expectations in terms of attendance, revenue, local impact at this point? What can be done? I think nothing. Correct.
- [37:48]
Will Leach
Yeah, I certainly feel it'll be something that may be felt more locally than with FIFA moving forward. I think they're going to be fine. They're going to be fine out of this. I was so glad that Rachel brought that up earlier about those trains that were the buses that were going out to New Jersey because there was this big, like, how could New Jersey transit do this? But this, like, for crying out loud, I mean, they didn't ask for it for suddenly to. To have to deal with all of this massive security thing and all of these things. You talk about the different Super Bowls going on. If you remember when the super bowl happened in East Rutherford about a decade ago, it was a huge mess. It was a huge, huge mess. And I think there was a sense that they would be more ready for things now because this would be bigger. So more money was spent, more expectations were had, more things were set up and they're just not coming through. Again, not a problem for FIFA. They're going to be just fine in this. But these, so many of these, not just the hotels, but like all these local businesses, they're not the ones. It's a common mistake that a lot of sports leagues in America will love to claim. Oh, well, we're actually, you have to build us a stadium because it will actually help the community and it will give jobs to everyone. That doesn't usually pay off, but certainly with this, there is no, like this. This is where the FIFA traveling road show really, really affects because basically they come in, get came out of this and whatever happens outside of that, hey, if you can't make money off the World cup, then we'll take it. And I think that that is, I think what you've really kind of been seeing.
- [39:13]
Tarek Panja
Well, just, just, just on this is the municipalities are public money that we should really be thinking about here more than the private sector. Because these cities have spent public money to host the World cup, significant public money. And what they were promised was like, you, you spend this, but you're going to have opportunities to make money back that public money you spent. And the big one was sponsorship. FIFA had said to the cities, you know what, because you're doing all of this for us. We're going to give you a chance to do local sponsorship in your cities. And then whenever they've tried to do this, almost at every turn they've been blocked by guess who, by FIFA itself, saying, actually, no, no, no, no, that's our category. Oh, you want that one? Well, that's also ours. Yeah, you might be able to get the local pizza mattress guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So that money hasn't arrived, but how
- [40:08]
Kara Swisher
big a risk is a half filled stadiums? Embarrassing, correct?
- [40:12]
Tarek Panja
Yeah. The last time. Well, World cup stadium in my mind has been empty was kind of before this. These times we live in. I remember some games at Italia 90, for example, being MT and that football was obviously hugely popular in Europe and in South America. But travel wasn't as easy as it has become since then. Hooliganism was a thing back then. Like we are in a different paradigm. And don't forget 1994, I think still holds the record for the best attended World cup. And that was with 24 teams. It grew to 32 since then. So that's what you're competing with. So it'd be really sad if America could fill stadiums in 1994 when soccer was not popular. What are we saying about the state of this today?
- [41:06]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, we have to bring in Taylor Swift, obviously.
- [41:09]
Will Leach
And that speaks to the general, just the incredible frustration that so many people involving U.S. soccer, that this was supposed to be the one. This is something they've been working on for a long time. Again, 94 launched so much soccer in this country and in the last 10 years, there was so much buildup. And then this really kind of started when the United States failed to qualify. That shifted a lot. That shifted a lot of attention, a lot of money. And it's a shame because this U.S. soccer generation of players was supposed to be the one that was built up to have this. Tarek is right. The idea that 1994, when it was just, they're playing well, what is this tournament? This is so fascinating, this thing that was happening. United States States was such a big thing. The fact that you would have gone actually backwards, not only does it look bad now, it looks awful for the United States. A place that was supposed to be the growth industry of soccer was supposed to be the thing that was supposed to move forward.
- [42:02]
Kara Swisher
So, Rachel, the drama around the men's World cup is affecting plans for the US to co host the Women's World cup in 2031. The confirmation has been delayed because the White House hasn't signed government guarantees The Trump administration is reportedly pressuring FIFA to ban trans athletes from competing before it does. So host cities also want better deals than they're getting for the men's tournaments. Now, what could it mean for the US Led bid to host the Women's World Cup?
- [42:27]
Rachel Bachman
I think it'd be huge. I mean, for one reason, you know, this World cup is the biggest ever with 48 teams. And the women's tournament is also going to increase to 48 teams that year. 2031. I mean, that would just be enormous for the women's game, which is much younger. Men's World cup started in 1930. The women's started in 1991. So FIFA definitely has some catching up to do. And the U.S. there's no question the U.S. has been the standard bearer. I mean, it has the best women's program historically won the most World cups. And also 1999. I think that also, at least on average, that in terms of average attendance, that Women's World cup still holds the record for attendance.
- [43:02]
Kara Swisher
But is that at risk now, do you think?
- [43:05]
Rachel Bachman
I don't think so. And the reason is because of the money. Even if this World cup falls short of what people are hoping, there's, you know, the big games are still going to be full, they're still going to be sold out, FIFA's still going to make its massive bag, and there's still the promise of the American market coming out. In fact, I would argue that some people who were frustrated that they couldn't afford tickets to the Men's World cup might be thrilled to get tickets to the Women's World cup, which even in 2031 will probably still be less expensive. And of course, you have the women's team at the center of it with a chance to once again go to the final. So I would say that's still pretty attractive and us would definitely want to host it. And I know that Gianni Infantino would want to send it back here. So I think it's almost a fait accompli at this point.
- [43:49]
Kara Swisher
Point, right. Every episode we get an expert question from an outside expert. Here's yours.
- [43:54]
Tarek Panja
Hi, my name is Guy Galloway. I work with Kara Swisher and I'm an enormous football fan. I go to Premier League games probably once every other week. I've been to the World Cups in Russia and in Qatar and absolutely adore the World Cup. And I'll go to several games in America. I can't think of an organization that has a better product and a worse brand, man. Corruption. Bribery. $38,000 tickets for the final and a peace award to a president who is bombing nations over and over. Why on earth would you take the purity of this sport and pervert it so badly with politics, with extreme pricing that basically makes sure that anyone who's really loves the game has that's there on kind of a corporate outing entertained. So my question is this with respect to brand, how could you be so fucking stupid?
- [44:56]
Kara Swisher
Thanks. Well, Will, then Tarek, then Rachel. How could they be so fucking stupid?
- [45:03]
Will Leach
Well, they can be so fucking stupid because they're going to walk away with so much money in this. Like the, the purity that he's talking about is exactly what allows all this. That the fact is I was talking to Roger Bennett, who hosts the Men Blazer podcast. We'll be kind of doing a tour of the World cup and he was talking about how at a certain level when these games start, all of that just fades away. It doesn't actually go away, but when you are watching like at a certain level, the event itself is so exciting. And the things, the emotional attachment we have to this, all these pageantry and all the incredible things that come into this at a certain level, we want to think about that. We don't want to think about this other stuff. The NFL used to call this a off season problem. Like all those big scandals that would all pop up the minute they kick the game off over Labor Day. It all went away until the season was over. Then they had to all deal with it again. I think that is not dissimilar, Tarek.
- [45:59]
Tarek Panja
Simply put, I think it's the equivalent of having monopoly on water. Why do you care about the brand when you have this product that everyone wants to buy, they know people will keep buying it. It doesn't hurt them at all. They are the masters of this universe. There's nobody else out there.
- [46:17]
Kara Swisher
So that's it. Monopoly.
- [46:18]
Rachel Bachman
Rachel I think sports fans have become just masters at compartmentalization. I think all of us are very jaded about all kinds of public institutions, from politics to governing bodies, that we've become experts at separating one from the other. And I think that's what's gonna happen here. Again. It's people love the games and the pageantry and that stuff is still around.
- [46:39]
Kara Swisher
But at the same time, America, it's not just the World cup that's painfully expensive. We're also seeing four and five figure price tags for tickets, the NBA Finals for Americans. What does this say about who professional sports are for now? What happens when the average fan gets priced out of Team successes.
- [46:57]
Will Leach
I think what sports reflects the larger society. It always has the notion that always sports have always been more for the wealthy than they have been for the needy. But as that gap continues to expand, as we see particularly in the United States, sports is going to reflect that. That is independent of FIFA, that is independent of supply and demand and all of the things that they're doing and the corruption of these things. At a certain level, sports, whether it wants to or not, whether people want to keep politics out of sports or not, these things reflect the society that they exist in. And I think that you're seeing that in the world, you're seeing that specific very much in the United States. And so therefore you're seeing it in sports.
- [47:41]
Tarek Panja
Yeah, I mean, as someone who's not an American, I do, I do find it strange. I mean, like Will, you said, like sports has always been for, for the wealthy first in, in Europe or in South America. These sports clubs, they grew from working class roots, is for working class people. This is where they sprung up from really. And it was the only thing, after being, say, in a mine, that will bring everyone together and watch the local football team. And now we're seeing the inverse of this with these ticket prices flying up. Yes. For the World cup, we're also seeing it in the Premier League. I mean, Scott Galloway there, I'm sure he's not short of a few quid going to a Premier League game every other week, he's going to go to a few World cup games. But I mean, that is also, I guess, a reflection of who the modern stadium attendee is. So we're seeing here in the Premier League almost an attack on season ticket holders because those tickets are cheaper. And then clubs are trying to pry those season tickets back so they can start selling them at higher prices for tourists who will attend, pay more money, buy product. So it's getting removed from the actual roots of what these community clubs are, what these clubs work to an asset class, I guess.
- [49:00]
Rachel Bachman
And I would add actually that unlike in Europe and in some cases in South America, the US really has no organized fan opposition. There have been cases in Europe, from what I understand, that fan groups have organized and successfully beaten back season ticket price hikes and so on. And that just doesn't happen in the U.S. i mean, very rarely. So for whatever reason, if it's because our sports didn't necessarily evolve the same way, fans are just sort of powerless, are not using their power or they
- [49:29]
Kara Swisher
throw things, that's how we take care of it. They throw things at the people. So we talked a lot about the negatives around the World cup, but there'll still be a lot of great soccer to watch and get excited about. It's also expected to be the final World cup for some legends of the game, like Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Let's end there. When it comes to the actual games, what are each of you gonna be watching for? And for fans who still wanna watch, you can't justify the headaches of going to a game. How can they still find ways to enjoy the tournament if you're not actually, actually going to it? Let's start with Tarek, then Will, then Rachel.
- [49:59]
Tarek Panja
I think this tournament represents the end of an era. You mentioned those two gentlemen there, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo. It's been a privilege for us to be around while they've been around. This sport is century old. Almost 100 years of the World Cup. These two guys coming together at the same time and giving us this quality is something that we may never see again. And. And this is.
- [50:25]
Kara Swisher
Oh, we will stop it. Go ahead.
- [50:28]
Tarek Panja
Just. Just the idea of these two guys. So maybe the final curtain on. On these guys. But then the. The beauty of this is this tournament gives a platform to the new generation who are the next ones. And. And for me, I'm very much looking forward to see if Lamin Yamal of Spain, teenager, precociously talented, already already done many things. If he steps up and dominates the World cup, that'll be incredible to see. And there are many others. Michael Alise from France, Kylian Mbappe, of course. And I can go on and on and on, and I won't. But this is, as Will said, once the ball gets rolling, we will get captivated by this tournament. There's going to be incredible storylines, players who emerge, and for people, people who don't want to mortgage their house to buy a ticket to Jordan versus Uzbekistan, whoever, they could just step out of your home, go into the streets and enjoy this thing. Because nothing like the World cup brings people from all over, whether it's within the United States and the incredible diaspora you've got there, or the fans who will be traveling there when they get together. This is a magical thing where humanity comes together for this one moment. And it is absolutely wonderful. If anyone was in Moscow the night before the start of the 2018 World cup, they would have seen an incredible sight near Red Square. A parade of fans. You walk 10 meters, you see Argentinians, Brazilians, Mexicans, Egyptians going crazy about Mohamed Salah. It was something that you won't find anywhere else and we'll have to wait another four years to see it again. So if you're in one of those towns, just open your front door, get out there and soak it all up
- [52:20]
Kara Swisher
and see the human, oh the humanity will.
- [52:25]
Will Leach
One thing that seems very clear that will happen from this is this thing's going to get excellent TV ratings. And one of the reasons, and I think you're going to hear a lot of stories about like wow, the ratings are up from Qatar and Russia. And a lot of of that will be simply because these are perfect television times. And I think like the start times for these games until the World cup final. The biggest most watched American soccer game ever was the in 2015 in the Women's World cup when the US won and that was a great team full of big personalities. It was also helped out that the game literally started at 6:30 Eastern Time on a Sunday. It became like this. And that is one of the beautiful things about the World cup as from just from a purely not going to the game and just a consumerist sort of casually enjoy perspective. They're gonna be going on all the time. You're not gonna be able to walk through any downtown in any city in the United States or really obviously any city in the world and not have there be a game on somewhere and some sort of clamor and activity happening. And I think that that's one of the really, really fun things for the world.
- [53:26]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, they've done a great job on and online too by the way. You can consume a lot of online.
- [53:29]
Tarek Panja
Well, they're gonna make a lot of money Fox, aren't they? They got these World Cups for three times less than they should have paid. So someone's walking away to the bank there, eh?
- [53:37]
Kara Swisher
I always feel so sorry for Rupert Murdoch if he's okay. You have to, you have to. You just gotta be like this old man needs some dough. Rachel, why don't you finish up?
- [53:46]
Rachel Bachman
So the US is great at most sports, right? Except in this one in men's sports. So I actually am rooting for the men's team. And in fact the entire US Soccer Federation was in huge disarray just several years ago, you know, open warfare with their flagship women's team over this equal pay lawsuit. You president resigned over several conflicts. They now, their president is now one of the few women to head a soccer federation globally. Cindy Parlo Cohn, a former player on the women's team and I would argue it's in the best shape of its life. I mean, revenues are way up. They just opened a massive training center in the Atlanta area. So the US Is actually on an upward arc. And, you know, this will be the final test to see if the men's team can come through, but it's been an incredible comeback already for American men's soccer General.
- [54:38]
Kara Swisher
All right, any predictions who's going to win? Any of you going to dare it?
- [54:41]
Tarek Panja
Give me France or Spain?
- [54:43]
Kara Swisher
France or Spain? Will.
- [54:45]
Will Leach
Spain sounds right to me, Rachel.
- [54:49]
Rachel Bachman
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if this has ever happened. Tara can tell me, has the men's and women's, have they ever had back to back similar winners? Spain is the reigning women's champion. So if, if Spain won the men's World Cup 2, this would be quite the. The twofer.
- [55:04]
Kara Swisher
Spain.
- [55:05]
Tarek Panja
It's a good question.
- [55:06]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [55:06]
Will Leach
Well, the US has won too many in the women, so don't forget for.
- [55:10]
Rachel Bachman
Right. And us Men certainly haven't won back to back, so. Yeah, certainly the likeliest of Spain. And following up with the women's title would be remarkable.
- [55:19]
Tarek Panja
And another important prediction, Messi and Argentina, I think, will go out against the first good team that plays them.
- [55:25]
Kara Swisher
Wow.
- [55:26]
Tarek Panja
Ciao, Argentina.
- [55:27]
Kara Swisher
Oh, whoa. They're going to be very mad at you right now. They're going to come in their convoy.
- [55:31]
Tarek Panja
Please write to Kara Swisher.
- [55:35]
Kara Swisher
Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Rachel. Rachel, Will and Derek. Thank you.
- [55:39]
Tarek Panja
Thank you.
- [55:40]
Rachel Bachman
Thanks.
- [55:40]
Will Leach
Thank you.
- [55:45]
Kara Swisher
Today's show was produced by Christian Castro, Roselle, Michelle Aloit, Catherine Milsop, Madeline LaPlante, Dubie, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamonn Whalen and Max Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're watching Messi and Argentina. If not, you're watching Uzbekistan play the Democratic Republic of Congo. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.