← On with Kara Swisher
Loading summary
Transcript347 lines
- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
I do a lot of comics and so I'm very excited to have you.
- [00:03]
Gerard Carmichael
Who's been your favorite?
- [00:05]
Kara Swisher
Oh, don't do that.
- [00:05]
Gerard Carmichael
I'm competitive.
- [00:18]
Kara Swisher
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Emmy Award winning stand up comedian, writer and director Gerard Carmichael. Jarrod has been making comedy for nearly 20 years. In 2014, his first stand up special, Love at the Store, was directed by Spike Lee. From 2015 to 2017, he wrote, produced and starred in the NBC sitcom the Carmichael Show. He has executive produced, directed and acted in TV and film, including the Oscar winning romp Poor Things. And despite having mined his personal life for comedy for all of Those years, his 2022 HBO special Nathaniel was full of secrets he hadn't revealed before, his family's and his own, including that he's g. It was standup as therapy and it won him an Emmy. But Jerrod didn't stop there. Last year he came out with the Jerrod Carmichael Reality show, an eight episode series documenting his attempts to come out to his friends, make peace with his father, and find common ground with his deeply religious Southern Baptist mother and her notions of heaven, hell and unconditional love. It's also about trying to be in his first open relationship without falling back into those lies. It turns out to be harder than it looks. Gerard's latest standup special, Don't Be Gay, came out last month and I thought it was fantastic. He's really mining a lot of his personal things, but it's actually still funny. I like a storyteller more than anybody, more than standup. That just goes for joke after joke. So he's incredibly thoughtful in the genre of a lot of comedians today who are doing a lot more than just telling jokes. Our expert question today comes from another very thoughtful comedian whom I interviewed a few months ago, Michelle Buteau. So happy. Pride to everyone and enjoy support for.
- [02:07]
Michelle Buteau
On with Kara Swisher comes from WhatsApp, a personal chat on WhatsApp is a place where users share everything from everyday mundane things to the memories that mean everything. It's a place that can truly feel like your own. WhatsApp wants to make sure everything stays protected from outside eyes, even theirs. No one, not even WhatsApp, can see or hear your personal messages. That includes personal calls, plus any documents, photos or media that you share in your personal chat. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.
- [02:42]
Gerard Carmichael
It is on.
- [02:43]
Kara Swisher
I want to start with talking about your special, which I loved. It's a new HBO special called Don't Be Gay. I think it's your fourth or fifth.
- [02:50]
Gerard Carmichael
It's my fourth.
- [02:51]
Kara Swisher
Fourth of them. Right? Yeah. Just in time for pride. Do you do pride?
- [02:54]
Gerard Carmichael
I do pride in my own way.
- [02:56]
Kara Swisher
Tell me why.
- [02:57]
Gerard Carmichael
I just don't like crowds. I don't want. I don't like. There's no parades.
- [03:01]
Michelle Buteau
Right?
- [03:01]
Kara Swisher
There's no parades. Parades are scary, right?
- [03:02]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I understand. Here's the thing. After coming out, I didn't come out till I was 30. And then after coming out, I have, like, Google alerts for myself, obviously.
- [03:12]
Kara Swisher
Obviously.
- [03:13]
Gerard Carmichael
And there's like, all these. I'm on these lists in these countries. It's like, basically, like, lists of gay celebrities. Oh. Like, guess who's gay.com? like, we hate you.net or whatever. And I understand pride. Cause, like, I'm a terrified traveler. I will not go to your country unless you have a pride parade. I don't want to participate in a pride parade. Right, but you better show me a faggot with a shirt off on a float going down a busy street.
- [03:40]
Kara Swisher
Other than countries that are not friendly to gays, it's still also, like, there's a lot of both at least.
- [03:45]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, I need at least that.
- [03:47]
Kara Swisher
You need at least.
- [03:48]
Gerard Carmichael
You better. I want flag. Like, show me that. Like, that he can safely make it from one end of the street to the other.
- [03:53]
Kara Swisher
Same thing with the state. Like a state in the United States. Most of them have a pride parade.
- [03:57]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. I guess they have Pride Parade. I mean, the places I would. That's more a culinary thing. Like, places I don't visit for the most part. Yeah, yeah.
- [04:05]
Kara Swisher
I don't like parades either. The only thing I enjoy is every now and then, a dyke march is kind of cool. Cause they're frightening.
- [04:12]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. But it's for the show. I understand it. For the show. A show of safety, a show of support. I totally understand that.
- [04:19]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. There was just an interesting interview with Richard Grinnell. You know, he works for Trump. He's running the Kennedy Center.
- [04:24]
Michelle Buteau
He's there.
- [04:25]
Kara Swisher
Gay.
- [04:25]
Gerard Carmichael
Oh, he's their g. They found a gay. They found a gay who hates himself for the arts.
- [04:31]
Kara Swisher
Normal gays don't like pride parades. And I was like, normal gays do.
- [04:35]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, normal gays.
- [04:36]
Kara Swisher
Abnormal ones.
- [04:37]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, normal gays don't program for Donald Trump.
- [04:40]
Kara Swisher
Right. That's exactly right. That's right. So let's talk about the special. You Talked about being raised straight. When you came out in Rathaniel, and you talked about you kept part of your life secret, you said 30 years old.
- [04:51]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. I'm giving, like, a rough estimate.
- [04:53]
Kara Swisher
30. That's late.
- [04:55]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah.
- [04:55]
Kara Swisher
Especially in this day and age.
- [04:57]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was scared of my mom, and then, like, it could probably be reduced to being that simple. Like, when I came out, like, that was the biggest fear. It was also a change of perception. Something happens, I think, if you wait, I think you can come out in, like, these windows. Like, I think, like, you know, when you're really young or, like, college is a chance to form a new identity so you can come out then. And then, like, I kind of slipped into this thing where I moved to LA and I met all these new friends and close friends, and so now I've just been lying to them for years and years and years. So it was like, I want to tell you something, but I also don't want to tell you that I've been lying to you for this long. And then there's this. The religious fear, the fear of God's punishment, the fear of my mother as she represents God. All these things just, like, compounded and made me wait.
- [05:47]
Kara Swisher
What were you fearful of with your mother?
- [05:49]
Gerard Carmichael
Judgment. Like, judgment. Not being the person that, like, my mother has the best idea. I'm trying to think of how to explain this. I would love to be able to see myself as my mother sees me. She birthed a son that she prayed for, that she wanted, and he came, and she has nothing but the best hopes and wishes and has this beautiful idea. It's a really beautiful idea of what her son is supposed to be and how he's supposed to be in the world. And I love most of it. Like, most of it I'd love to accept.
- [06:27]
Kara Swisher
Successful, happy.
- [06:28]
Gerard Carmichael
Successful, happy. However, like, being gay didn't align with that idea, and so I was afraid of shattering it. Like, both for her. For me, it was a.
- [06:39]
Kara Swisher
Was it explicit? Was gay explicit in.
- [06:43]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, well, yeah, that kind of came with the Southern Baptist package. Right.
- [06:48]
Kara Swisher
And they're more aggressive than ever today.
- [06:50]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah.
- [06:50]
Kara Swisher
They're hoping to overturn gay marriage. The Baptists have said it explicitly when they had.
- [06:56]
Gerard Carmichael
That makes sense. I mean, it makes sense from their perspective. Like, of course, it's always, like, they're.
- [07:02]
Kara Swisher
Just not gonna stop. But one of the things that you did, though, is even though you came out then, you did drop breadcrumbs all over the place. It seems like to me, watching your stuff in 2015, you had your NBC sitcom, the Carmichael Show. Fourth episode was about a teenager coming out to you. First is gay, then is transgender. Your fictional parents in that show, Joe and Cynthia, same names as your real parents, by the way. Handle the situation pretty well. So it was kind. Wishful.
- [07:30]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. I was, like, writing. Like, writing how you'd like them to tell you.
- [07:33]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [07:33]
Gerard Carmichael
How I like the future to go. Yeah.
- [07:34]
Kara Swisher
You also made references in your 2019 home videos. Talk about that. Were you consciously aware you were. I assume you were doing it.
- [07:41]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, well, Home Videos. Home Videos was, like, that was my soft launch. Right. But it was. I was so terrified. That was the whole reason I did it. I had just come out to my closest friends maybe, like, a couple weeks before that.
- [07:54]
Kara Swisher
Which they knew, right?
- [07:55]
Gerard Carmichael
Some knew. Some were gracious, some, like. Some were shocked. I got, like, a kind.
- [08:01]
Kara Swisher
Oh, really?
- [08:01]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. Like a range of realities.
- [08:03]
Kara Swisher
I got a lot of no shit, Sherlock. But go ahead.
- [08:05]
Gerard Carmichael
I'm having a soft launch where I, like, built up enough courage to tell my best friend, and then I do this thing where, like, it's like, a real floodgate type of mentality where I'm like, okay, well, now I guess I need to tell everybody in the world, starting with my mom. And I made this documentary, went to North Carolina reality show. Before that. It was called Home Videos.
- [08:28]
Kara Swisher
Home Videos.
- [08:28]
Gerard Carmichael
Right. Okay. And that was where, like, really, it was all built around this moment in the living room where I was gonna tell my mom, but I couldn't say I was gay. I couldn't. I think I was bi for, like, two weeks.
- [08:40]
Kara Swisher
Oh, okay. Right. I think I, like.
- [08:42]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. You know, I could go. No, no. I could go both ways. I could still have a wife. Yeah, yeah. Like, just, like, lying to myself or whatever. But I. I was so nervous. I was just on the couch, and my mom had just gone through a lot, finding out about my father's, like, other family. So I, like, was, like, having this heavy conversation with her. And, like, on top of that, I was like. And I hooked up with dudes before. It's, like, in camera pants to her. Cause she's. My mom's. My mom is cool, unfortunately, and just actually, like, cool to the point of being cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just, like. That's your preference?
- [09:17]
Kara Swisher
Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a killer.
- [09:19]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [09:20]
Kara Swisher
Ooh. That's your preference?
- [09:22]
Gerard Carmichael
Ice. Yeah.
- [09:23]
Kara Swisher
That's what you want to do?
- [09:24]
Gerard Carmichael
That's what you want to do?
- [09:24]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. So not a screaming kind of thing? No, I got a screamer.
- [09:29]
Gerard Carmichael
Really?
- [09:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Which was easier, I suppose, in some fashion.
- [09:32]
Gerard Carmichael
I actually, like, I provoke arguments in my relationship because I think I associate, like, screaming with, like, truth. People usually aren't, like, screaming a lie.
- [09:43]
Kara Swisher
Right, right, right. Unless they're narcissists.
- [09:45]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, maybe.
- [09:46]
Kara Swisher
Right. So you. Is it strange to look back at those moments when you look at them?
- [09:55]
Gerard Carmichael
Not strange. That was actually probably the beginning of, like. I can look back at those moments now knowing that I was doing the best that I possibly could. This is the best at the time. This is the best I could do at the time. This is as brave as I could be. This is the most I could say. And I can look back at it then. What's difficult is looking back at, like, even, like, old standup before coming out, because I could see how much of it all was a performance.
- [10:27]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [10:27]
Gerard Carmichael
I could see.
- [10:28]
Kara Swisher
Do you remember a joke that was.
- [10:30]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, just all I was doing, you know, just jokes about, like, really, like, aggressive, like, tearing down marriage. A lot of that was with my. Because of my parents and, like, seeing, you know, the lies and stuff that my father told, but then also, like, a lie I was telling myself, like, made me very cynical and skeptical about marriage as an institution. Well, it's all built on lies anyway. And that's also. It's, you know, you're in your 20s and you got all the answers and, like. So for different reasons, it's hard for me to look at that time in my life with, like, pride and confidence. I can't. I wasn't recording any sets. I wasn't, like, posting anything online. Like, I was a very. I was like a club comic, just going up, performing my jokes, having this antagonistic exchange with the audience, and then I leave and go off to my own private life.
- [11:22]
Kara Swisher
Did that make you a less good comic when you weren't yourself? Some people think that if you're not your genuine self.
- [11:29]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, that's kind of. Yeah, I think for me, yes, I think I found something in the truth and found something in revelation that was really necessary and not just cathartic, but necessary for the skill and the craft, like, to be able to write uninhibitedly and to be able to, like, articulate a flow. Cause I find that really rewarding things that I was hiding are actually what a lot of my act is about now. So for me, yes, I think there are some people who have built characters that are funny and it works. And, like, you know, like, Sebastian Maniscalco doesn't need to have, like, some type of, like, deep revelation about his relationship with his father. Cause, like, he's found like a stage character that works. Like, I think there's a lot Seinfeld or like, that have felt like a Persona on stage that really.
- [12:20]
Kara Swisher
It's different. Yeah, but you used the material from your life in the Gerard Carmichael reality show. People call it a Truman show esque. It's more of a documentary. You had the camera team follow you around, capturing lots of hard coming out conversations with friends, your parents, and your relation with your current boyfriend, Mike. One of the scenes that I really liked was when you agreed to pray with your mother. You had a very strained smile on your face. That's just heartbreaking. Talk a little bit about that moment in the religious and your relationship now. Cause you're pulling her into it.
- [12:52]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. Well, so I invited her to New York. I come out, our relationship was strained. I invited her to New York, and it was a lot of, like, me go to therapy, family therapy with me, you know, listen to my perspective. And I tried so hard to, like, hammer it. And I was being really, really aggressive. And it was a moment where I was like, hey, what? What if I actually listen? What do you want? Like, what is a solution that you feel comfortable with? I realized I wasn't listening to her. Like, I'd flown her to New York just to kind of like, bully her into, like, my perspective.
- [13:27]
Kara Swisher
Right, right. You will like me in Mike.
- [13:29]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. You will like me in my gay kingdom. Yeah. Yeah. But I didn't listen to her. And so. And I wanted to listen, and she wanted to pray. She wanted to, like, actually pray and, like, have. And it's funny, it's a strange feeling because, you know, I've kind of taken this long route back to, like, understanding the necessity of, like, ritual of prayer, of hope, faith. And I admire that about my mother. I admire her, like, very steadfast, unmovable faith.
- [14:02]
Michelle Buteau
Right.
- [14:03]
Gerard Carmichael
And I actually think that's a practice.
- [14:04]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [14:04]
Gerard Carmichael
It's a practice. And I think that, like, that part of her personality that I've gotten, and even just in a spiritual level, I think I've reaped benefits from that. Right. Like this woman who, like, prayed for her son that's going thousands of miles away to Los Angeles to this, he knew nobody with a dream. And this belief that God did have, like, was gonna bless a path of purpose in my life. Like, these things, I can't just, like, take the good.
- [14:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Right.
- [14:32]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, like, take the positive. Yeah. And so there's something really beautiful about that and something. And I have kind of found the necessity for that again. In my life, I've been trying to rebuild God. Like, I realized, like, I grew up Southern Baptist, singing on the choir. You know, people thought I was gonna be a minister. Like, saltines and grape juice, having communion at home. Then, you know, moved out and got too smart for the religion and have kind of now, in my 30s, like, come back around to understanding the need for. And especially I understand my mother's need for it.
- [15:08]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
- [15:08]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, like, God is the only man in her life that wasn't lying to her. My mother, her father, and her husband. And as much as I've found myself trying to protect her, was lying about, you know, like, God's the only. The only man in her life that was.
- [15:26]
Kara Swisher
That sticks with it.
- [15:26]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah.
- [15:27]
Kara Swisher
Do you think it's a need for spirituality on your behalf or a belief in Christianity? Which one is it? Every now and then, I wander past the church and want to go in.
- [15:35]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Something, you know, something higher. Something bigger. Something bigger than yourself. And going back to potential, like, seeing that in myself and seeing that in others, that takes practice. To be able to look someone in the eyes and say, look someone who may be having a frustrated moment and say, like, no, you're bigger than this moment. To have a system in place that is grander.
- [15:57]
Kara Swisher
Do you use that system anymore, given you grew up in it? It's hard to move away from practices.
- [16:02]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Yeah. I still find myself, like, singing and playing gospel on Sundays, not even realizing it's Sunday. It's just, like, finding myself. That's the music that moves me. Can cry. Listening to spiritual music. I definitely need it, and I've accepted it again, I've let go of, like, being too smart.
- [16:22]
Kara Swisher
What do you mean you're too smart for.
- [16:24]
Gerard Carmichael
Because I could break down, like, my spirituality and maybe, like, three steps. It's just like, okay, believe everything's good. Step one. Step two. Hey, that's fucking stupid. Open your eyes, look around. And then step three is. Yeah, but believe it anyway.
- [16:41]
Kara Swisher
I see. Yeah, that's fake.
- [16:42]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, going. Yeah, going past that. Like, that step. I've read too much. I know too much to.
- [16:48]
Kara Swisher
It's obvious that things aren't all good.
- [16:50]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. There's a part of me that wants to believe that, but there's a part of me that, like, wants to smother that.
- [16:57]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [17:06]
Michelle Buteau
Support for on with Kara swisher comes from WhatsApp. WhatsApp is committed to keeping your personal chat safe. So the things you want to keep Most private, they're kept private even from WhatsApp. You can share graduation photos with your cousins, aunts and uncles and they're the only ones who will see that your eyes are closed in a quarter of the photos. Or you can use the app for a catch up call with your long distance childhood friend. And when you know you're secure, you might recount embarrassing teenage fashion choices and may even send each other photo proof. No one, not even WhatsApp, can see or hear your personal messages. That's the promise of their core design. So when it comes to sharing everyday personal messages, milestones and meaningful moments, the only people who see your messages are the people you send them to. That includes personal calls, plus any documents, photos or media that you share in your personal chat. No one's listening in, not even WhatsApp. And all WhatsApp sees of your personal messages is gibberish. That's how WhatsApp works. Your personal messages stay yours. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.
- [18:12]
Kara Swisher
Watching Rally's show with all the home video footage of your childhood mixed in. You were using cameras from a young age.
- [18:19]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah.
- [18:20]
Kara Swisher
Were you performing or what did you think about it? And did you see yourself in the third person as like the character in the play that is Jarrod?
- [18:29]
Gerard Carmichael
I think psychoanalysis would say yes. That's what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing, but I liked a show. I love putting on a show. It was all a show. The church was one of my favorite shows in wrestling. Grew up watching wwe. I loved that show. And home was a show like in the performance of my parents marriage, the performance of myself as the good son. It was all a show. So I loved when life seemed to make sense when we were putting on the show, when the camera's rolling or the curtains are drawn back. Now actually the show at least makes sense. It gives purpose to the show that I was already performing anyway. So yeah, yeah, I do have a love for the camera.
- [19:12]
Kara Swisher
When you look back at those home videos, what do you think?
- [19:15]
Gerard Carmichael
Oh yeah, I think I hear my voice and I go like, oh, you poor gay boy, you knew. Yeah, like I hear my voice and I hear the need to be a good son to be an entertainer. You know, I see that and kind.
- [19:35]
Kara Swisher
Of a need to be seen, right?
- [19:37]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is the thing that I was most terrified of.
- [19:41]
Kara Swisher
Right. So in reality show you have an anonymous friend. People guessed it's fellow comedian Bo Burnham.
- [19:46]
Gerard Carmichael
Who has directed a couple I'LL never tell.
- [19:48]
Kara Swisher
You'll never tell. Okay. He kind of calls you on the bullshit, the idea of the show being reality, and warns you treating the camera like it's God.
- [19:55]
Michelle Buteau
Right.
- [19:55]
Kara Swisher
He was a stand in for the criticism. You think you're gonna get and you're taking the wind out of those sails. Talk about this anonymous character and how you were thinking of it in the narrative structure of that show.
- [20:07]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, you know, the Greek chorus.
- [20:09]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, sure, yeah.
- [20:11]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, foreboding and wise and plays that role in my actual life. So that made sense for the structure of the show.
- [20:18]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [20:18]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, it's funny because it's a.
- [20:20]
Kara Swisher
Real choice that you made there, you know, to have that.
- [20:23]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. Well, because it's interesting. I come up, like I said, came in with my first references, like Dick Kavik and all these things. I come up thinking television and the cameras and all these things are a miracle. And I learned to put on a show and I learned a skill at a time when a lot of my friends were leaning into, all right, well, you gotta put your set on YouTube and you have to be on Twitter. And Dane Cook had just had a million followers on MySpace and that kind of thing. Like, everyone was leaning into that type of technology. I was still trying to develop, like this specific craft of connecting with an audience, like a live audience and even. And developing it. And television is a miracle. So, like, all right, you have to craft the show. Like this very well written, well crafted show. And so I was developing this skill while it seemed like the world was going in a different direction. By the time I did reality show, I'd done the five camera NBC.
- [21:28]
Kara Swisher
Right, The NBC Carmichael Show.
- [21:29]
Gerard Carmichael
And I'd written my parents response and how it should be and the father Knows Best and we hug at the end of the episode. Like, I'd written all of it. I'd done all of that. Like, when it was time to do, like the deal with hbo, I was like, well, I could write another. I could do that, but I've done that already. And the world seems to be moving in this direction where it's like, reality is, like, strange. Like, everybody's got a camera and everybody's kind of got their own show and everyone's putting on a performance in their bedroom. Like, the world is this now. So I was like, well, what if that's my show? What if I, like, kind of take everything I've learned up until this point and meet the world where it is and just like, instead of like writing my mother's response to my Coming out. Cause I was gonna do the autobiographical comic thing that comics I told my.
- [22:20]
Kara Swisher
Mother I was gay.
- [22:21]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Yeah. And so. But what if it's. What if instead of casting Loretta Devine this time, we get actual Cynthia Carmichael to come and have her response, and we make that into the show. And a lot of the craft was in the editing, and a lot of what I needed to be was just, like, open.
- [22:37]
Kara Swisher
What did she think of it?
- [22:38]
Gerard Carmichael
My mother? Yeah, my mother doesn't change for the camera.
- [22:42]
Michelle Buteau
Right.
- [22:43]
Gerard Carmichael
So she thinks exactly what you see. That's another part of it.
- [22:48]
Kara Swisher
What does she think of you doing that?
- [22:51]
Gerard Carmichael
She'd prefer if I not. But because she's unchanged, it's. It's like, all right, if this is what you want to do, fine. You want me to say it again for the camera? Like, if we were having a private conversation, and then I said, hey, I'm gonna bring in an entire crew and a camera. I'm gonna mic you. Do you mind repeating that? She'd go, yeah, sure. I could say it again. She'd be more burdened by repeating herself than by the cameras coming into the room.
- [23:15]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. But every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Yours is another maudly, hyphenate comedian. I've interviewed Michelle. I know. Let's go with that. As a creator. Co creator, starring in, executive producer. Whether it is a sitcom or a standup special or a reality show, how do you find the line? Like, the fine line, the balance between giving too much of yourself or not enough? Do you feel it in the moment? Do you plan ahead about what you're gonna share? Are there consequences with sharing your mind, body, soul, and spirit and stories with people? That's my question. Which she does too.
- [23:55]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. No, for sure. I don't really think about it. I don't think it's because there's two lines. It's like, I want to continue to evolve and change and grow on all these words as a person, and I also want to be able to craft something entertaining. Sometimes it's like I think those two things align, and sometimes they may not. The reality show was just. And Rathaniel, where, like, specials and pieces of art, where those things align. And that the me that I was, the show that was the show. There are times, like my most recent special, don't be Gay, where it's like, all those jokes and ideas aren't necessarily just me in that moment, but it's like a crafted idea.
- [24:45]
Kara Swisher
Right. In an edit, you think about it.
- [24:46]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, in an edit. Yeah. And it's all edited and it's all. So it is in some ways, like, sacrificing all of it for the art. Yeah, yeah. Just like. Yeah.
- [24:55]
Kara Swisher
Are there consequences? Do you feel consequences with doing that?
- [24:59]
Gerard Carmichael
Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure.
- [25:01]
Kara Swisher
Yes.
- [25:01]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. There are people in my life that are very angry about the cameras. There are also people. I think there's consequences to just being truthful.
- [25:12]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, Right.
- [25:14]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, all right, remove every camera. Like, you go around, like, telling the truth, people are gonna hate.
- [25:18]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah. Yes, they do.
- [25:19]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, people are gonna get really upset.
- [25:20]
Kara Swisher
They secretly, like, you see.
- [25:22]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah.
- [25:22]
Kara Swisher
But you talk about some of the consequences in your recent special, Don't Be Gay. It's more like a regular standup.
- [25:27]
Michelle Buteau
Right.
- [25:28]
Kara Swisher
It's pretty sexually explicit. You talk about your open relationship. You talk about sex with strangers from Grindr. You talk about race and racial dynamics, how people reacted to your boyfriend who was white. You got a lot of vitriol on black Twitter after reality, but you repeatedly say you're focused on hobophobia, that you forgot about the racism. Which one shall we pick? Talk about the reactions to your specials in various communities. And does that play a role in your creative process?
- [25:54]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, my friend jokes and says that I'm at too many intersections.
- [25:59]
Kara Swisher
You are. You're very interested.
- [26:01]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, like race and race and money and class and sexuality. Just religion. It's just. I do feel like I'm, like, standing at the. On the nose. Like, key art for any of my work could just be like a man with an umbrella at another section. So it is kind of for any reaction, there's like, another side that disagrees with them. Like, I don't. I wouldn't know where to turn or where to be pulled. You know, I want to make people happy. I really. That's a lie. I want people to be entertained because that's my job.
- [26:40]
Kara Swisher
That's correct.
- [26:41]
Gerard Carmichael
That's really what I want. I'm also. Now, I've been in the business long enough, I've seen the value or your value as an entertainer change. There was a time when there was a wall, right, where the celebrity, the person, the personality was someone to be like, they put on makeup and they went on the show and you wondered what their life was and they were to be admired. And you see what they present and then they go. And now everyone kind of has that for themselves. You can put out your opinion, your thoughts, your face.
- [27:16]
Kara Swisher
You can expose yourself.
- [27:17]
Gerard Carmichael
You can expose yourself constantly. Like, everyone's the news. Everyone is their own 24 hour news channel.
- [27:25]
Kara Swisher
Right?
- [27:25]
Gerard Carmichael
So the best you could be as an artist is like the O.J. trial, right? Maybe not, but kind of just like. Oh. But unfortunately, everyone's watching. Everyone's watching, and everyone's gonna have an opinion. But that's. That's. The art is for people to go. Like, some people are gonna hate.
- [27:40]
Kara Swisher
It is to change the creative process. When you get reaction. I try not to let it, but I can tell you it does.
- [27:48]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. I mean, my last special is, like. Is talking about my reaction to reactions. And so it's not just like a snake eating itself. Like, you kind of. I have to step away from it for a little while. Like, now you. You only stop searching your name on Twitter. Cause you've been hurt.
- [28:07]
Kara Swisher
Right, right. I don't do that anymore.
- [28:09]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:09]
Kara Swisher
That's the word conscious there.
- [28:11]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah.
- [28:11]
Kara Swisher
You on Twitter now?
- [28:12]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, Everyone does it. At most, you can just not do it anymore.
- [28:17]
Kara Swisher
Right? That's right. That's true. That's true. That's true.
- [28:19]
Gerard Carmichael
But you had to stop. It was like. Oh, that was like.
- [28:21]
Kara Swisher
That was. Yeah, well, it changed. It changed that particular platform changed. Can you go back to class for a minute? It just stuck my head. That was a theme in your earlier work and kind of the third rail. In America, no one talks about class.
- [28:33]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:34]
Kara Swisher
Now, again, since you're at the intersection right now, you're talking about don't be gay, but talk a little bit about the class stuff that was in your earlier work. Cause I thought that was really interesting.
- [28:43]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, just. Cause, I mean, it's a. You know, I grew up in a place in an environment where people didn't have money. So, like, you think about money all the time. You, like, you're upset, you know, or lack thereof. One of the first things I remember when we got the Internet, there was this website that broke down Bill Gates wealth into, like, little pieces of, like, bits of information. I remember one that said Bill gates makes over $300 per second. So if he's walking down the street and he drops $100 bill on the ground, it's not worth his time to bend over.
- [29:19]
Kara Swisher
Right. Just leave it.
- [29:22]
Gerard Carmichael
Imagine being nine. Like, what the fuck are you even talking about? Like, an obsession with, like. Well, how do I get this? How do I get this? That church, Like, I talk about that in a special, like, church because it makes me. I understand people's need for, like, Trump. If you're poor, Trump represents, like, this.
- [29:39]
Kara Swisher
He's an aspirational.
- [29:40]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. And the way. Cause I grew up, like, around people that went to, like, mega churches. Like, poor people, like, they just couldn't pay, like, medical bills that had, like, pointed to a minister in a mansion with a Mercedes. But I understand the need for that. Rappers did that for me. Like, I'm like, I couldn't afford the things they were talking about. But, like, through proxy, I'm like, oh, I feel confident. I feel that. And so then my life is strange. Cause then, oh, now I'm thrown on the other side of that.
- [30:10]
Kara Swisher
Right, right, right, right.
- [30:11]
Gerard Carmichael
And now it's just a completely different perspective that I'm still learning. I'm learning how to talk about, learning how to deal with. Comedians don't usually talk about money. It's kind of like it's supposed to be more relatable in the every.
- [30:23]
Kara Swisher
To everyone.
- [30:24]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. But I just find it interesting.
- [30:27]
Kara Swisher
So one of the things that you talk about a lot also is who you. You mentioned Dick Cavett. You mentioned others. I know.
- [30:32]
Gerard Carmichael
I don't know why. Dick Cavett's come up a lot today.
- [30:33]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, Dick Cavett was amazing. That's. Cause he was. Or Tom Snyder or Merv Griffin or. There was so many of them. But you often say also you love Norman Lear and so many others. Who influences you now. And is there LGBTQ work you admire or. Or not?
- [30:51]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, no. For sure. Well, here's the thing. The funny thing is out or closeted, if you are an artist, you are heavily influenced by LGBTQ work.
- [31:01]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that's true. That's true.
- [31:02]
Michelle Buteau
That's right.
- [31:03]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Like, if you're in the church anyway, that's a good thing.
- [31:06]
Kara Swisher
What was the most important previously as a young woman?
- [31:10]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, Jay Z was like my role model. Somebody who I looked to for emotional guidance and practical guidance and to be like, you know, how to walk, how to speak, what to wear, how to be in the world. He was my role model more than any comment because he came from a place that was similar to where I was, and he made it out. And he carried himself with such confidence. And he never lost touch, lost a sense of who he was. And I needed that. I still need that. I'm so lucky to have the big brother who chose Jay Z as his favorite rapper, because Jay Z's one of the only rappers that grew in the form and talked about things that rappers just never talk about. The person who made Big pimpin also made 444. That just usually doesn't happen in an artist's career. Any genre of anything. Yeah, yeah. An evolving artist. So they're so rich and interesting.
- [32:09]
Kara Swisher
He also talked about his gay mom.
- [32:11]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deep personal things. Like, it was incredible. And, you know, but as far as comedians, I still. I mean, you know, I love Louis. I think Louis CK May be one of the more brilliant minds. And I wish I could do what he does. I can't. I think I'm closer to, like, Cosby, like, in storytelling. Like, I think that's just where I've found myself.
- [32:36]
Kara Swisher
Storytelling.
- [32:36]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. And, like, telling stories and, like, using my life as the material and, like, stretch. But like, Louis, he's very meta, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, obviously we're adults, so I don't have to do the whole disclaimer thing.
- [32:51]
Kara Swisher
Don't roofie people. Don't show your people.
- [32:52]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, obviously don't do that.
- [32:55]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. So you were in the Breakfast Club. You were on the Breakfast Club a year or so ago and said something really interesting. Let me play it for you.
- [33:02]
Gerard Carmichael
Comedy doesn't grow. Comedy doesn't evolve. It's kind of stunted, like rap. And we just start getting real braggadocious, antagonistic with the crowd. And it can evolve. And we need smart people like Dave, like Chris Rock, like myself, to actually evolve the art form, because it is dying. It's so, so important for people to go up and do deep, personal stories or have a deep perspective about things going on in the world, because it's not happening.
- [33:31]
Kara Swisher
Well, that's something to say. What do you mean? About comedy being stunted?
- [33:34]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, yeah. You know, look, evolve or die. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. This probably could be even bigger statement about, like, art. Cause the word platform gets used a lot. And I'm just of the belief that. That a platform isn't a platform if everybody's standing on it. And so, like, now a lot of, like, I will take comedy. There's some very funny comedians who do crowd work. But now, like, I don't want the crowd. Like, my work isn't with the crowd. Like, my work are, like, these thoughts that I like, you know, took time to craft and think through and write through, or felt brave enough to share or, like, something that is, like, interesting, that, like, it just becomes something else.
- [34:21]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [34:21]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, like, and I watch comedy kind of take on a different form.
- [34:26]
Kara Swisher
Like a crowd source kind of thing.
- [34:27]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. And I never really believed in, like, crowdsourcing art. I don't think that. I think it's, like, part of the reason you don't, like, take the American Idol. Winners. Seriously.
- [34:37]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
- [34:37]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, oh, I voted for you. I chose you.
- [34:39]
Kara Swisher
I chose you. Right, right.
- [34:41]
Gerard Carmichael
How could I ever take you seriously? And how could you. They also feel beholden to the crowd, like, to invest it. Like, that's the difference between art and business. The CEO of the company should be beholden to. The shareholders should be beholden to themselves and like, create something.
- [34:56]
Kara Swisher
Is that hard to resist given the participation in the audience now, either through social media or comments, or they do it themselves or they have comments on the comments.
- [35:04]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, it's profitable.
- [35:05]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [35:06]
Gerard Carmichael
So there's that, like, you know, like that you say to the crowd. Yeah, yeah. Like, you kind of start sounding like the Rock. You know, it's a lot of like, we, we, we did it. We sold out this room. You know, we, like, we, we, we. And like, that's one way of approaching it. And I think I just have a different.
- [35:25]
Kara Swisher
So you're more like a chef, like, I made this for you. They're like, or not. It's up to you.
- [35:28]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, I would never. That's a great example. I would never want to go to the restaurant where I. You want me to make. I'm in charge of pasta.
- [35:36]
Kara Swisher
Would you like a little.
- [35:37]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:38]
Kara Swisher
Add a little turmeric.
- [35:39]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. Like, no, I'm gonna ruin the dish.
- [35:41]
Kara Swisher
Right?
- [35:41]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, that's it.
- [35:41]
Kara Swisher
It is interesting. A lot of people do when you have, like when you have. Especially even now we have a lot of fans now. I think it more is. And people tell you what they think. Yeah, we think you should do this. And I'm like, I'm not doing anything you say.
- [35:54]
Gerard Carmichael
And also if I do, you will hate me.
- [35:56]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
- [35:57]
Gerard Carmichael
You actually don't know that. And like, it's easy to get caught up in that. Like, no, you will, you will hate. It's the quote, like, never give the audience what they want. They'll never forgive you.
- [36:06]
Kara Swisher
That's true. That's true. One of the things that actually is easy to do too, besides low hanging fruit and not evolving, is punching down, which I think we're on a dunk culture. Trump exemplifies the dunk culture. Obviously, Michelle and you have been openly critical of Dave Chappelle and other comedians who punched down instead of. You got a bit of media back and forth with Chappelle on talking about jokes on trans folks. You've walked back a little bit. I get why. I personally just think one joke is funny. An hour of it is not.
- [36:35]
Gerard Carmichael
My argument honestly, was removed from. It's me as a fan of his as, like, a fan of his and as a fan of the art form itself. And so it was more of a critique of, like, craft. Evel Knievel is gonna jump over 13 buses, right? He revs up. He's about to do it. So he's like. He's getting nervous. The crowd's like, is he gonna make it? Is he gonna live or die? He goes over. He lands on the other side. He does it. It's a miracle if he circles around and does it again.
- [37:14]
Kara Swisher
Correct.
- [37:15]
Gerard Carmichael
Oh, it's easy.
- [37:16]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:18]
Gerard Carmichael
Then add more buses. Yeah. And so it's just how, like, I.
- [37:23]
Kara Swisher
Think lazy is what I had the issue with it. I'm like, it's just not funny. Like, I like a good lesbian dude, or.
- [37:28]
Gerard Carmichael
You did it. I thought it was. It is just as a spectator. It's an incredible thing to pull off. Like. And I also appreciate the spectacle and building up. Like, it's hard to make anything interesting.
- [37:41]
Kara Swisher
He pulled into it. He got pulled into the argument itself.
- [37:43]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think. But again, that's my. People seem to love it. People seem to. People seem to love it. And I even get. In some cases, like, I don't even get caught up in the punching up, punching down. If you have a thought, like, there probably is somebody with way more that can make a funny joke about somebody with way less, and I would laugh. Like, I would be guilty of that. I don't even think about that in principle. It is just.
- [38:08]
Kara Swisher
Is it funny or not?
- [38:09]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, just. Are you maximizing your own potential and your own ability?
- [38:13]
Kara Swisher
I see.
- [38:13]
Gerard Carmichael
So you're saying. And that's a personal question. Yeah, it's about craft for me more than. It's a political argument.
- [38:18]
Kara Swisher
Is it different from. From what the Trump people are doing all the. They do a lot of dunking. Dunking is a sport at this point.
- [38:28]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but then I gotta think about, like, all right, I didn't vote for Trump. Right. But I'm like, how am I complicit in his. Right? Like, I do a lot of that. Like, what am I. What did I do? Like, I paid him a lot of attention. I have laughed. He makes me laugh.
- [38:48]
Kara Swisher
He can be funny.
- [38:49]
Gerard Carmichael
There's a part of me that wants to. That is angry, and I want to punch down sometimes, too. He does do a thing that. It's not Obama and Trump kind of like Captain Planet, Captain Pollution. To me, Obama is kind of the best of our virtues. You know, Like, Captain Planet was like, Earth, fire, wind, water, heart, and like, And Trump is the runoff. Like the things that we don't necessarily. But they're both true.
- [39:23]
Kara Swisher
Right? Right, right.
- [39:24]
Gerard Carmichael
You know what I mean? They're both true. They're both coming from a true place. They both are a part of us. And I guess with Trump, he makes me interested in exploring the worst part of myself, I think, in some way to be able to think about and correct when it needs to be corrected.
- [39:44]
Kara Swisher
Well, do you do a lot of political satire? You don't cause a lot of come, and some people are going the opposite direction. The Carmichael show was focused on societal issues, not politics. Do you feel like doing more political humor, or do you think people are tired of it?
- [39:59]
Gerard Carmichael
I talk about it in my living room. As far as, like, my work, I try, and my work is about what holds my attention. I haven't felt myself having the interest in keeping up with. They're comedians who. A thing happens. They're on it just like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Immediately, yeah, here we go. Here we go. And they may have a really good take on. The things that I talk about are things that I've been, like, dealing with for, like, weeks and months and years and things that I'm like, a perspective, a breakthrough that I could bring. And to me, that's the best that I could bring.
- [40:34]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [40:34]
Gerard Carmichael
Right now. Yeah. Yeah.
- [40:36]
Kara Swisher
One of the things that was Rathaniel, which I think people are surprised. It had few jokes, right? And you've said that reality show was a sitcom. What is then comedy to you if it has few jokes?
- [40:46]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, Rathaniel was just like, I. I think it's like, this art piece is very emotional, that it's a journey that you're on with the performer, and reality show is, in many ways, a journey. My most recent special, don't Be Gay, is I think it just. It is just crafted material. It's like, I think philosophically, I like tension, and, like, breaking tension is what makes me laugh. And sometimes that's being the lone voice of truth in a room full of lies. Like, but, like.
- [41:21]
Kara Swisher
But comedy doesn't have to be funny.
- [41:23]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, to me, what is funny when I watch comedies? Like, a lot of my favorite comedies are dramas, right? Like, just like, I think, like, Tarantino, like, Tarantino is one of the funniest, like, film directors. He's not technically, you know, like, he's not writing comedy, but it's really funny. Like, Kristoff characters are funny because he breaks tension in an interest in if everybody's funny. For me, this is like, my own personal. And I've had tastes like this since I was a kid. If everybody's funny, then nothing's funny. You know the best example, I think, of my own personal taste in comedy, there's this movie that we love called Minister Society. Came out in the early 90s. The Hughes brothers, like, heavy, dark, telling story about this young man loses his parents, is raised by his grandparents, gets caught up in the streets and like, really, really heavy movie that has some of the funniest moments, like really funny scenes in it. You know, like Clifton Powell has a thing. I won't have to get into the detail, but this is a serious movie that has really funny moments. I think Menace to Society is funnier than. There was a Wayans Brothers parody of it called don't be a menace while drinking your juice in the hood, which is like, it's meant to parody. I think menace to society is funnier than don't be a menace.
- [42:52]
Kara Swisher
Oh, that's funny.
- [42:53]
Gerard Carmichael
So that's kind. That's just like my own, I guess, the way roses are hilarious. But I'm just saying, like, that's my thing.
- [43:00]
Kara Swisher
I think succession is a comedy.
- [43:01]
Gerard Carmichael
Succession is a comedy.
- [43:02]
Kara Swisher
It's a comedy.
- [43:03]
Gerard Carmichael
Sopranos is a comedy.
- [43:04]
Kara Swisher
I talk to Brian. God, I'm like, you're doing a comedy? He goes, I'm doing a comedy.
- [43:07]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, of course, yeah. Because exactly.
- [43:09]
Kara Swisher
So fucking ridiculous.
- [43:11]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's comedy to me.
- [43:15]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [43:23]
Michelle Buteau
Support for on with Kara swisher comes from WhatsApp. WhatsApp is committed to keeping your personal chats safe. The things you want to keep most private are indeed kept private, even from WhatsApp. WhatsApp can be the place you and your siblings chat to organize a surprise trip for your parents 40th anniversary. Or it can be where you message your colleague some words of encouragement before they defend their thesis. Or you can use WhatsApp to brainstorm your next book club title. And you can rest assured the only people who see your recommendations are your fellow club members. WhatsApp can be there for everyday connections and important milestones alike. And privacy is the name of the game. No one, not even WhatsApp, can see or hear your personal messages. That's their promise that the only people who can see your personal messages are the people you send them to. That includes personal calls, plus any documents, photos or media that you share in your personal chat. All WhatsApp sees of your communications is gibberish. That's how WhatsApp works. Your personal messages stay yours. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.
- [44:30]
Kara Swisher
So I want to finish talking about your career in industry. Do you doing a sitcom on NBC and a special on HBO are obviously career goals for comics. You signed an overall two year deal with HBO in 2022. Are you gonna keep working for them? What is success now for a comedian or comic? Because it's changed.
- [44:49]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you don't wanna be the head.
- [44:51]
Kara Swisher
Of late night anymore.
- [44:52]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, no, no, no. No interest in that. Right.
- [44:54]
Kara Swisher
But no one would have ever said that before.
- [44:57]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, well, I don't think like Richard Pryor never even. Richard Pryor was at the peak of Carson and he would never have wanted to do that. I, to me, I mean, it's like it is just being able to make what you want to make. Like, you know, I didn't do this because I wanted to just like work. I wanted to do it because I had ideas that you wanted to get through. Yeah. I have comedian friends who like do podcasts and they're like talking to other people about things. I'm like, man, that seems exhausting looking like you really be caring about what people be saying. Like, I don't want to throw nobody on the bus, but you ever watch people do the yawn they try and swallow the young?
- [45:36]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:37]
Gerard Carmichael
I've been watching like just sleepy people.
- [45:38]
Kara Swisher
But yeah, yeah, we were like talking.
- [45:40]
Gerard Carmichael
To politicians like, you don't give a fuck about this. Like, that seems like I'd rather make less money and not have to do that.
- [45:48]
Kara Swisher
Whatever you want to make, wherever you can make it is all your interest.
- [45:51]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah. I love my relationship with hbo. I'm thankful to have Nina Rosenstein who has meant the world to and like, has understood me. And I like gatekeeping.
- [46:02]
Kara Swisher
Me too.
- [46:03]
Gerard Carmichael
I like that HBO is a little bit smaller and that there are thoughtful people that are kind of like filtering through something. I think like ARK should be gatekeeping.
- [46:12]
Kara Swisher
With all the, well, they're breaking apart, for example. These companies are disintegrating or breaking apart and being made smaller. Yeah.
- [46:20]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, I don't know. You kind of got to let it happen. There's nothing I can do about the mergers and, and then breaking apart.
- [46:26]
Kara Swisher
And you don't go, I gotta have a YouTube show now.
- [46:29]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, no, no. I mean, if I had an idea for one, I would do it, you know, like, and I'm not against that, but it's just like, you know, I'm just saying, like. And even my idea of HBO in some ways is like a Little antiquate.
- [46:45]
Kara Swisher
No, they have taste.
- [46:46]
Gerard Carmichael
No, it's actually not. They still do. They still have the shows that are talked about in a way. Like, you know, friends talk about rehearsal or even talk about White Lotus. You know, like these things that are, like, talked about in culture. Cause it's thoughtful. It's just thoughtful art. I just want, like, you know, I want to work with thoughtful. I've been lucky enough to be able to work with, like, thoughtful artists. People that really care, people that have shame.
- [47:14]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [47:15]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, if things aren't good, I want to do something beautiful. And like, people that could be embarrassed.
- [47:18]
Kara Swisher
But you don't care where you are. You don't feel the pull of having to do YouTube or TikTok or things like that.
- [47:24]
Gerard Carmichael
No. And look, if I were younger.
- [47:28]
Kara Swisher
You're not old.
- [47:29]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, I'm just saying. But I am at a place where I grew up thinking about art. Like this way that you craft something and then you release it. It's not about constant engagement because it dilutes the art.
- [47:41]
Kara Swisher
So you're going, those young kids.
- [47:42]
Gerard Carmichael
Well, they're old. You know what I'm saying? You're right. It's not about age. Cause there are older comedians that I hear are guilty of this note too. But just like, comedians are just like, talk too much. If my job is to talk to you for an hour, I can't talk.
- [47:55]
Kara Swisher
To you for five hours.
- [47:57]
Gerard Carmichael
For five hours a week.
- [47:58]
Kara Swisher
Right? That's right. Yeah.
- [47:59]
Gerard Carmichael
And then like, it's gonna get diluted. That's just like math.
- [48:02]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that's a fair point.
- [48:04]
Gerard Carmichael
And so I just am a type of person. You're right. It's not an age thing. I'm just a type of person that, like, I would rather speak to you potently for an hour.
- [48:13]
Kara Swisher
Got it.
- [48:13]
Gerard Carmichael
And mean everything that I say.
- [48:16]
Kara Swisher
So one of the couple more things. Do you worry about streamers getting more conservative? Obviously a lot of these companies are paying off. Paramount might pay off Trump. ABC paid off Trump. And so. But are you worried about more conservatism at all in the current political environment, which will change?
- [48:33]
Gerard Carmichael
I'm probably more worried about it more broadly, just its effect that there are 19 year olds that have the same rhetoric that I heard 70 year olds have. That's a little like, oh, do you.
- [48:48]
Kara Swisher
Feel pressure to be in the manosphere even though you like men? There's so many manosphere comedians now.
- [48:54]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:55]
Kara Swisher
But many of whom aren't funny, actually.
- [48:58]
Gerard Carmichael
But like, that's what I'm saying. Like, it is separating, like anything that becomes a thing. Like, if you are joining the manosphere is over.
- [49:08]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [49:09]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, it's over. It's already. Like, it's already. It's like seeing a star that's been dead long. Like, it's over.
- [49:15]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:16]
Gerard Carmichael
Like, yeah. Just care about any individual voice, Any individual interest in voice. Like, you know, like, Theo Vaughn is funny.
- [49:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [49:24]
Gerard Carmichael
Theo Von was funny To Me in 2013 at the Comedy Store. I was like, yeah, he's funny. He's always been funny. Like, is he in the. I don't know. Like, he's just.
- [49:34]
Kara Swisher
So you don't feel any pressure to go that direction?
- [49:37]
Gerard Carmichael
No, no. And I think feeling like, again, like. Yeah. I don't know. There's a difference between the artist and, like, the used car salesman.
- [49:46]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
- [49:47]
Gerard Carmichael
You know, that's just, like, kind of following the trend and doing the thing. Like, I don't know, like, going back.
- [49:52]
Kara Swisher
To what Michelle said, you're not just a comedian. You've been an executive producer, a producer, a director, a movie and television actor. You've done reality shows, scripted shows. Is there something you haven't done that you still want to do? Obviously not. A podcast. As you said, you don't have enough interest. And you will yawn at people.
- [50:08]
Gerard Carmichael
I've been yawning, talking for hours. Like, I'm. Thank you for not yawning, but thank you for not yawning during me.
- [50:16]
Kara Swisher
You're not boring, so I wouldn't.
- [50:17]
Gerard Carmichael
No. But I've been trying to remove hyphens.
- [50:20]
Kara Swisher
Okay. Multi hyphen.
- [50:22]
Gerard Carmichael
Okay. I don't want to be multi high. I want to be really good at something I care about being really, really good at. Like, if it's one thing to be so lucky, now it's standup. I love going into a room with thoughts, with a show, with a performance.
- [50:37]
Kara Swisher
A live show with people.
- [50:39]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm also part of it is filming. I've also. I've always loved that. I've always loved how it's filmed and, like, that medium of capturing lightning in a bottle and releasing it, that's always been exciting to me. So that's kind of all a part of it.
- [50:58]
Kara Swisher
A part.
- [50:59]
Gerard Carmichael
I love the entertainment industry. I love it as an idea, but I don't need to wear multiple hats. I don't need to be a director for the sake of. I don't need to be called. I don't need to be called anything.
- [51:10]
Kara Swisher
Right. So just your work is all what you do.
- [51:12]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:13]
Kara Swisher
Last question. Do you think you're the son your mother wanted you to be.
- [51:17]
Gerard Carmichael
I think I'm the son she deserves. Meaning like that, like I care deeply about her. That, like, I think that is what she wanted. She wanted to be a good mom. I asked her once what her dream was like. Did she have any dreams? Does she have, like a career aspiration or something that she wanted to do, she never got to do? And she told me that she. She always just wanted to be like a good mom. She wanted two boys, which she got, and she wanted to love them and wanted them to love her. And I do. I love her dearly. And so that's what I'm saying. I think she got the.
- [51:50]
Kara Swisher
She got what she wanted.
- [51:52]
Gerard Carmichael
Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
- [51:53]
Kara Swisher
Well, good job, Cynthia. Yeah, she did.
- [51:55]
Gerard Carmichael
She did.
- [51:56]
Kara Swisher
All right, Gerard, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This has been a wonderful conversation.
- [52:00]
Gerard Carmichael
It's really fun. Thanks for having me. Be.
- [52:08]
Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro, Russell, Kateri Yokum, Megan Bernie, Allison Rogers and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Skyler Mitchell. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you don't have have to join the manosphere. If not, you do go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
- [52:46]
Michelle Buteau
Support for on with Kara swisher comes from WhatsApp. Chatting, event planning, consoling, catching up. However you use your messaging apps is up to you. With WhatsApp, you can do it all with the knowledge that your personal messages are secure and private by design. No one, not even WhatsApp, can see or hear your personal messages except the person you send it to. Because all WhatsApp sees is gibberish. Your personal messages stay yours. WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Visit WhatsApp.com privacy to learn more.