Jon Chu on Wicked, Silicon Valley, and Defying Hollywood’s Gravity

Summary

Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher – Episode featuring John Chu on "Wicked," Silicon Valley, and Defying Hollywood’s Gravity

Release Date: November 18, 2024
Podcast: On with Kara Swisher
Host: Kara Swisher, Vox Media

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Introduction

In this captivating episode of On with Kara Swisher, host Kara Swisher engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed director John Chu. The discussion centers around his latest film adaptation of the beloved musical "Wicked", the intertwining of Silicon Valley’s technological prowess with Hollywood’s creative endeavors, and the broader implications of these dynamics on the future of filmmaking. Featuring insights from Cynthia Erivo and insights from additional contributors like Ariana Grande and Jeremy McCarter, the episode delves into the complexities of modern cinema, representation, and the evolving landscape shaped by technology and politics.

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John Chu’s Background and Inspirations

[05:07] John Chu:
John Chu opens up about his upbringing in Los Altos, Silicon Valley, where his parents owned Chef Chu’s, one of the area's premier Chinese restaurants. "Altos is one of the best Chinese restaurants in the area. I have gone there a bajillion times," he remarks, highlighting the deep-rooted connection between his family’s culinary business and his personal and professional development.

[10:17] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia shares, "I had every Think Different poster wallpapered on my thing," referencing Apple’s famed campaign that inspired her. Her admiration for Steve Jobs is palpable as she recounts meeting him: "He really wanted to meet you. And I'm from Los Altos, and my family has this restaurant."

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The Making of "Wicked"

[03:22] John Chu:
Chu discusses the collaborative chemistry between stars Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, who portray Elphaba and Glinda respectively. "Their chemistry is off the charts," he notes, emphasizing the harmonious blend of their performances that brings depth to the characters.

[34:36] Cynthia Erivo:
Delving into the choreography, Cynthia explains, "Defying Gravity was probably the hardest thing I've ever shot in my life." She elaborates on the meticulous planning and emotional depth required to portray Elphaba’s transformation: "What story are we telling... It has to be emotionally satisfying."

[35:12] Jeremy McCarter:
Jeremy adds, "We built sets, 17 stages... We built Emerald City, we built Munchkin Land." This underscores the grand scale of production and the commitment to blending traditional craftsmanship with modern technology.

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Technology and Filmmaking: Silicon Valley Meets Hollywood

[13:59] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia reflects on her dual upbringing in Silicon Valley and Hollywood: "I was raised in two worlds... I have a very good compass of which parts of each world work for what I do."

[16:14] Cynthia Erivo:
She discusses the shift in Silicon Valley’s influence post-Steve Jobs: "When the Silicon Valley mentality came to Hollywood... I got more skeptical when it shifted from inspiration to data."

[23:16] Jeremy McCarter:
Jeremy contrasts the immersive experience of cinema with streaming platforms: "A two-hour movie and a streaming service is like nothing. It's like you're microwaving your popcorn."

[46:34] Cynthia Erivo:
Touching on emerging technologies, Cynthia shares her experience editing with Vision Pro: "Editing virtual reality changed the game for me because I could make the screen as big as the room... I love that."

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Representation and Diversity in Casting

[44:06] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia emphasizes the importance of diversity: "If you're retelling a timeless story... it should feel like all these iconic Characters are just normalized."

[44:48] Jeremy McCarter:
Jeremy highlights the inclusion of diverse characters: "We might be the first fantasy movie where we have accessibility ramps and stuff."

[45:12] Jeremy McCarter:
Discussing lessons learned from "Crazy Rich Asians," Cynthia admits, "I did not know the argument was like, do you have more South Asians in those scenes?"

[44:17] Cynthia Erivo:
She reflects on creating a diverse and authentic representation: "We are the first fantasy movie where we have accessibility ramps... It's the way the world looks."

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AI in Filmmaking: Opportunities and Ethical Considerations

[48:11] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia shares her cautious optimism about AI: "I think when we think about how to tweak that, and we don't know the answers of how you're going to make it... It's really important for us to play with it and understand it."

[49:15] Cynthia Erivo:
She underscores the sacred nature of human creativity in storytelling: "You could not have thought of in a meeting. And that is actually the power of movies. And those things will always be sacred."

[50:08] Cynthia Erivo:
Discussing AI’s role in ideation, she states, "Here are a hundred different things. Here are the five that I really like... Movies, movies, movies."

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Political Messages and Social Commentary in "Wicked"

[55:29] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia draws parallels between "Wicked" and contemporary political climates: "It's attacking anti-immigrant sentiments... We have to get ready for the uncomfortable fight."

[56:02] Ariana Grande:
Ariana comments on the film’s timely relevance: "She’s obviously pushing back against technocrats who want to spy and control Oz... It’s an important movie to see for me at the time."

[57:29] Cynthia Erivo:
She shares personal experiences of discrimination: "My sister called me and she was like, do you remember when we were walking across the street... Suddenly I was like, oh, yeah, I remember it."

[58:51] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia emphasizes the need for storytelling to confront societal issues: "We have to deal with the ugly parts... We are all roommates all of a sudden."

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Future Projects and the Role of Storytelling

[63:43] Cynthia Erivo:
Looking ahead, Cynthia reveals her versatile aspirations: "I don’t have one movie that I dream of making, and that's it... Maybe Wicked was a piece of that, but it wasn't like, once I make that, I'm done."

[63:58] Cynthia Erivo:
She highlights ongoing projects and collaborations: "I have so much in development... I’m working with Pasek and Paul, and Andrew Lloyd Webber."

[61:37] Cynthia Erivo:
Cynthia reinforces the enduring power of storytelling: "Storytelling can be done in sound... It's happening at a rate that is way faster than anything we've ever seen."

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Conclusion

In this thought-provoking episode, John Chu and Cynthia Erivo offer a nuanced exploration of modern filmmaking, where the magic of storytelling intersects with the relentless pace of technological advancement. They advocate for thoughtful integration of diversity, ethical considerations in AI, and the unwavering power of cinema to reflect and influence societal values. As Hollywood continues to evolve alongside Silicon Valley, their insights provide a roadmap for creators aiming to navigate and shape the future of entertainment with integrity and innovation.

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Notable Quotes

• Cynthia Erivo [10:00]: "I'm Chef Chu's son everywhere I go. Louisiana, San Francisco, it doesn't matter."

• John Chu [13:13]: "If you think of those three movies as my new sort of view, it's my new View trilogy."

• Cynthia Erivo [17:16]: "Movies are like a museum. People pay money to go see the museum. It's the best of the best."

• Cynthia Erivo [22:34]: "Eyeballs and views don't equate to attention."

• Cynthia Erivo [29:38]: "Redefining what beauty is, what family looks like, what a hero is, what a villain is."

• Cynthia Erivo [42:25]: "It's like they're gonna teach her and they're gonna do this together."

• Cynthia Erivo [60:27]: "Storytelling is what people need, leadership. People need something to head toward."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a beacon for aspiring filmmakers and creatives, illustrating the intricate balance between embracing technological advancements and preserving the essence of human-centric storytelling. Through John Chu's visionary approach and Cynthia Erivo's passionate advocacy for diversity and authenticity, listeners gain valuable perspectives on sustaining relevance and impact in an ever-evolving industry.

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For those who haven't listened to the episode yet, "On with Kara Swisher" provides an enriching dive into the minds shaping contemporary media and technology, making it a must-listen for enthusiasts and professionals alike.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this episode comes from sas. How is AI affecting how you learn, work and socialize?

[John Chu]

And what do you need to know.

[Cynthia Erivo]

To make responsible use of it as.

[Kara Swisher]

A business leader, worker and human in the world? Find out when you listen to Pondering AI, a podcast featuring candid conversations with.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Experts from across the AI ecosystem.

[Kara Swisher]

Pondering AI explores the impact and implications of AI for better and for worse with a diverse group of innovators, advocates and data scientists.

[John Chu]

Check out Pondering AI wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this show comes from smartsheet Is your business looking to maximize project and portfolio value? From department initiatives to organization wide goals, smartsheet can streamline processes and unite teams to deliver more impactful work. You can track projects, prioritize tasks, and visualize data, all in a flexible, scalable platform. Learn how Smartsheet can help your business manage and [e-mail] Cara that's smartsheet.com Cara support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Anthropic. A lot of AI systems out there feel like they're designed for specific tasks that are only performed by a select few.

[Ariana Grande]

So where do you start?

[John Chu]

Well, you could start with Claude by anthropic. Claude is AI for everyone. The latest model, Claude 3.5, offers groundbreaking intelligence at an everyday price. Claude Sonnet can generate code, help with writing and reason through hard problems better than any model before. You can discover how Claude can transform your [e-mail] Claude.

[Ariana Grande]

Before you were very famous when you did the dance movies?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, the Step Ups.

[Ariana Grande]

Yes, Step Ups. He showed them to me and he said my son is going to be very famous. He brought me right over and showed me the pictures. Don't you understand how big my son will be? And he goes as big as Chef Chu. You know he refers to himself in the third person.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, of course, I know, I know. I grew up in that. But I will always actually be Chef Choose Son everywhere I go, Louisiana, San Francisco, doesn't matter. I'm Chef Chuson. It's on.

[John Chu]

It is on. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm a Kara Swisher with a bad voice.

[Ariana Grande]

But my guest today is a fantastic person, so hopefully it will drown out the noise of my voice.

[John Chu]

My guest today is John Chu, the.

[Ariana Grande]

Director behind the new Wicked movie, which.

[John Chu]

Will be in theaters this Friday.

[Ariana Grande]

Wicked is a classic for musical lovers. It's a story about challenging power and.

[John Chu]

Perceptions that is always relatable, especially Important today.

[Ariana Grande]

I've been waiting for this movie and let me tell you, I have been very deeply moved by it. I think it's beautifully done because John Chu makes beautifully movies. But it really went well beyond expectations for so many different reasons, including it stars Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande.

[John Chu]

They star as Elphaba, the Wicked Witch.

[Ariana Grande]

Of the west, if you didn't know. And maybe she's not so wicked. And Glinda, the good witch. And maybe she's not so good. They are in fact spectacular and their.

[John Chu]

Chemistry is off the charts and they center a really wonderful movie and a massive production. The choreography alone is insane and Chu.

[Ariana Grande]

Did a beautiful job bringing it to the big screen. I saw the original musical on Broadway with the original cast and this is really something special. He creates a specific kind of magic in his films. He did it with crazy Rich Asians, another movie I really love and watch over and over again. It came out in 2018 and 2021 adapting Lin Manuel Miranda's musical In the Heights.

[John Chu]

I didn't like it as much, but it was sure beautiful.

[Ariana Grande]

And one of the interesting things about.

[John Chu]

John is that he grew up and.

[Ariana Grande]

Was shaped by the tech revolution in Silicon Valley. His parents own Chef Chews in Los.

[John Chu]

Altos, one of best Chinese restaurants in the area. I have gone there a bajillion times.

[Ariana Grande]

And in fact, John talks a lot about it in his memoir Viewfinder, a.

[John Chu]

Memoir of seeing and being seen, which.

[Ariana Grande]

He co wrote with Jeremy McCarter.

[John Chu]

So we're going to talk about all that. How Hollywood and Silicon Valley have merged over the years for better and worse. And what impact our current political climate could have on John's efforts to expand representation on screen.

[Ariana Grande]

Let me be clear.

[John Chu]

There are a lot of wizards out there trying to get us witches.

[Ariana Grande]

And we'll see who wins.

[John Chu]

Our expert question this week comes from Tony award winning director Bart Shear, who's currently adopting the musical film La La Land for Broadway and will be directing Dolly Parton's musical. Hello, I'm Dolly and I absolutely can't.

[Ariana Grande]

Wait for either of these.

[John Chu]

So it should be fun. Defying Gravity with John Chu, even Mo. My voice is probably going to bring me down. Let's get to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It is on.

[John Chu]

John, welcome.

[Ariana Grande]

Thanks for being on on.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Thank you very much. It's an honor to be here with you.

[Ariana Grande]

I almost went to your dad's restaurant in Silicon Valley. I was just there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh.

[Ariana Grande]

And I was like, should I go to Chef Chu's and ask him a question for his son?

[Cynthia Erivo]

You gotta go you gotta go. They would love to.

[John Chu]

I've been there 109 times.

[Ariana Grande]

Every Chinese company that was headquartered in Silicon Valley did their banquets there. So I've been there a million, zillion times. But everybody goes there. Everybody goes there. Your dad is very proud of you. What did you learn from him? He's an entrepreneur. And of course, he's surrounded by entrepreneurs and serves entrepreneurs. What did you learn from him?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, I learned a ton from watching him. Just his work ethic. And that's not just him. Him and my mom, you know, they.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Built this from nothing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

1969 is when they started it. And that's tough. The restaurant business is tough. And I've watched him work really hard in the kitchen. Like, he. If a chef was down, he would get in there and he would get.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Greasy, and he loved it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was like playing music to him back there. And he would draw his dishes, his new dishes on a napkin. So I would watch him draw these.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Dishes, and then he would go make.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Them and get sweaty and then go into the front of the house and wipe himself off. And my mom would be there, and they'd be greeting the customers, and they'd.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Be the hosts of the night.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And watching that charm, watching them tell stories, it was literally house of stories there. And I always watched them go back and forth. And what I realized is when I.

[Jeremy McCarter]

What I was really drawn to was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The guy in the kitchen.

[Jeremy McCarter]

To me, that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's where he's like, this is where the work actually happens. It flows.

[Ariana Grande]

It is like being a director.

[John Chu]

Right.

[Ariana Grande]

It's putting on a theatrical show for people who don't know what Chef Choo's is.

[John Chu]

Just.

[Ariana Grande]

It's so fantastic. It's so over the top, banquety, and a very. A classic Chinese restaurant, but super popular among Silicon Valley people. So it is like putting on theater and putting on a show every night.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Yeah. And even working with the chefs and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The busboys in the back and everybody. It was. It was chaos. It was a pirate ship in my eyes.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And he had to maneuver and get to the vision of what he wanted to do.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it was very rarely glamorous. And I would sit there at the.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Bar doing my homework. And so it was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He always included us.

[Jeremy McCarter]

He always included us in the work.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Itself, telling us what he was doing. So.

[Ariana Grande]

But you didn't want to go into it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, I didn't. And not because of anything other than. I think my parents were always like.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You'Re doing other things.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Including my mom, who, you know, they.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Wanted us to be president of the United States.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They wanted us.

[Jeremy McCarter]

They thought we were the Asian Kennedys.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They would, like, dress us up the same. We'd go to, like, etiquette classes, we'd go to dance classes, we'd go to.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Musical operas, ballet in the city. We had season tickets. And so they really wanted to immerse.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Us in American culture.

[Jeremy McCarter]

They did not want us to feel.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, I'm named after a television show. Jennifer and Jonathan.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Me and my sister, Jennifer and Jonathan.

[Cynthia Erivo]

From heart to heart. Wow.

[John Chu]

What?

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's crazy. Yeah. So media stories, what the American dream was.

[Jeremy McCarter]

That's what they wanted to achieve, and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Everything that they did, and they put that on us in not a bad way. It was just. That was the dream, and they lived it every day for us.

[Ariana Grande]

So congratulations. You've got two new babies. You missed the red carpet premiere of Wicked because your wife was giving birth to your fifth child. Is that correct?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Fifth child.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And I'm the youngest of five.

[Ariana Grande]

I have four kids.

[John Chu]

So talk with me about this.

[Ariana Grande]

It seems like a movie moment. You rush from the red carpet to that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, it was crazy. So I've been working three years on Wicked so far, and I already had.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Two babies during Wicked.

[Cynthia Erivo]

One when I got the job named Ruby over the Ruby slippers, and another one while we were shooting. And so getting all the way to.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The opening of the premiere, and we're.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In a hotel room, my whole family has flown in. My wife's family has flown in.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We're looking over the red, and at.

[Cynthia Erivo]

4 in the morning, I get a nudge from my wife, and she's like, my water broke. Of all days. Of all. And so we. We just left our suits there, left.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Our clothes, and went to the hospital.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And my family went on the red carpet, which was very scary for me because I'm usually the one managing how they talk to Jeff Goldblum or Ariana Grande. So they were off on their own. And while the movie was playing, the baby was born. Little Stevie Skye Chu.

[Ariana Grande]

Why that name?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I have some heroes, one of which is Steve Jobs, one of which is Steven Spielberg, one of which is Stevie Wonder, Stevie Nicks, and maybe even a little Stephen Schwartz in this round. So my wife said she was born on your premiere day. You get your name. And I was like, well, you have to be okay with this. And, yeah, and I was fine with it. My mom did say, that doesn't sound like a president of the United States.

[Jeremy McCarter]

President Stevie.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I said, she's going to be a rock star, Mom. Sorry.

[Ariana Grande]

Oh, okay. All right. So when you have others to give to that. That cause. So you talk about your love of Steve Jobs. I mean, I can see Steven Spielberg, obviously, great director.

[John Chu]

Why Steve Jobs?

[Ariana Grande]

You had a poster in your bedroom as a kid.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I had every poster. I had all the Think different posters, like, wallpapered on my thing. But even before the Think different, it was one.

[Jeremy McCarter]

He was our hometown hero. He was the guy who dreamed big.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we lived in a neighborhood that dreamed big and valued engineers first. And he was the great storyteller of that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

He could connect it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I watched every Mac World keynote. I would sneak out of school and go to San Francisco.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We flew to New York to go see it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We rarely got actual tickets, but we get close enough. And I just love the way he talked about the tools and creativity and almost like he was just letting you in on a secret. He was never selling anything, and I was really drawn to that connection and the tools that I actually finally did.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Get my hands on because of customers.

[Cynthia Erivo]

At Chef choose, they would hear my dad's story and give us computers, beta computers. It was sort of the dawn of digital video editing. It was video cards and things were coming into play. And so I got this stuff very.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Early, and I saw the power.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I felt the power of what that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Was doing for me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so I just looked at him as somebody who.

[Ariana Grande]

Did you meet him?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I did.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I met him.

[Ariana Grande]

Tell me about that. I knew him very well, so.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I've watched all your interviews. I've watched all your interviews. I know everything. I've seen. I've seen everything. I was very lucky.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I was at the Academy Awards, and not because of anything other than our dance company that I had was performing it. So I was there early, and he rolls in with Bob Iger into the VIP bar area. And I was like, oh, my gosh, That's Steve Jobs.

[Jeremy McCarter]

That's Steve Jobs. I can't talk to him.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I don't wanna talk to him. I hear. I know that he probably wouldn't wanna talk to me. I wouldn't be able to live with him looking at me like he doesn't want me to be there, so I'm just gonna avoid it.

[Ariana Grande]

And he could do that. He could do that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I know. And my buddy, who was in a bunch of ipod commercials like, I don't care. So he went over and talked to him, and as he's talking, he grabs my arm and pulls me over and.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Says, hey, Steve, this is John.

[Cynthia Erivo]

He really wanted to meet you. And I'M like, hi, I'm from Los Altos, and my family has this restaurant.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And I really love your stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And you really gave me the tools. And he's like, that's great.

[Jeremy McCarter]

He's like, you're from Los Altos? Like, we're neighbors.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was like, wow, that's right.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And he's like, oh, I know, Chef Choo.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was like, yeah, great. And he's like.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I was like, you know, these tools really gave me a voice.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't know what I was going to do, but it's the computers that allowed me. Now I'm making movies in Hollywood. And he's like, that's so great. And I said, you know, even your commercial, it's a mantra that I say every day. And I memorized it. And he sort of leaned in, and I was like, oh, oh, okay.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the trouble.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I start doing it, and he.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Just keeps leaning in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Every time I stop, like, I'm gonna stop, and I do the whole thing.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And by the end, he's saying it with me.

[John Chu]

Wow.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it was the most amazing time.

[Jeremy McCarter]

He shook my hand, he said, thank you, John.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That means so much. And Bob Iger comes around, and he.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Goes, hey, Steve, this is John. He directed our Step up movies. You heard of the Step up movies?

[Cynthia Erivo]

And Steve Jobs was like, no, But Laureen came over, and she's like, our daughters love those movies. And I was like, yes. And then I left them alone.

[Ariana Grande]

The first line of your memoir was, I grew up in the future. And as you said, you grew up in Los Altos. For people who don't know, it's a dead center of Silicon Valley. One of the towns. Palo Alto. Los Altos. And as I said, your parents have the restaurant there. You just talked about how it shaped you as a filmmaker, that you use these tools. You were also a tech and a drama kid. You took tap dancing 12 years, you were immersed in the theater. Talk about these two twin things and how they fit together. I think very few filmmakers have a technology love. They just sort of accept it. I mean, obviously, you're all in it now.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I mean, I think technology, it just was a lifestyle. Like, growing up, that was what you did.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And there was new things all the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Time, and change was just normal. And in fact, it was encouraged. And so for me, it always open.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Opened up a new window, and so there's always discovery.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And with the camera itself, that technology was changing so fast because I did.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Not have access to all this stuff.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So a film developing Super 8 film was.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You had to pay money. You had to get the thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I had to have lights, and that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Was just not accessible.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But the people at the restaurant would.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Give me these cameras, These digital cameras.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That were 320 by 240, 640 by 480, was, like, the big thing. But it gave me a leg up on. On all the people that. And I was young. I was like 10, 12 years old. And so those. I immediately.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I already understood the power of technology.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Or the accessibility that it gave me and the advantage it gave me. Even in school, I convinced my teachers to not write papers, but to make videos. And watching people react to what I was doing felt like I could be heard for the first time. And I.

[Jeremy McCarter]

So those two things were never separate.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I learned a lot of lessons doing that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

By the time I went to usc, they were not fully digital.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I got to learn film.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I got to do 16 millimeters on a flatbed with splicing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I finally understood, like, oh, a real bin is like a place where.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You put the frames of the thing that you actually spliced, that you actually cut something.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so I was sort of on that edge of the digital takeover and through my years of film school.

[Jeremy McCarter]

By the end, it was all digital.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But at the beginning, it wasn't.

[Ariana Grande]

But you started out as a tech enthusiast. But your memoir. It seems you've become more of a tech skeptic. Myself, also throughout your career, mostly because I've gotten to know them. I miss Steve Jobs terribly, I have to say, and his spirit, at least in terms of the mentality, especially when it comes to the idea that Hollywood should be more like Silicon Valley. Talk about when that happened for you. To me, the death of Steve Jobs was a very big moment. I remember it to this day. But it switched from think different to move fast and break things, which, you know, and I pay a lot of attention to words, obviously. Talk a little bit about that shift for you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I remember the day Steve passed as well. I was shooting GI Joe, and I.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Was working with some actors, and it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was a hard day. And my assistant came and whispered to me that he had passed and everything.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Went away that day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I excused myself, went to the bathroom.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And I just wept on the floor.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I met that guy once, but his effect on me was so deep, because.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I think even his ideas he gave.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All the employees, when he was changing the campaign to the Think different, he gave him all this book that had.

[Jeremy McCarter]

These poems of each of his heroes, and he said in that, in the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Intro of like, that it's about your purpose and about the soul of a company.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You're not just selling computers, of course.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They'Ll do the fastest computers and duh. But like, it's about what you're doing it for. And that's the philosophy that I grew up in. That's the philosophy that I. I loved. And honestly, I do believe that that is still true. I think it's more. When the Silicon Valley mentality came to.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Hollywood, I was all for it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's digital. When I went there, it was film, film, film.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Nothing will replace film.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was like, you guys are idiots.

[Jeremy McCarter]

It'll change.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you could see it coming. And every time, Silicon Valley was right. And I guess I got more skeptical only more recently when it shifted from inspiration to data. You know, Hollywood used to be run.

[Jeremy McCarter]

By mavericks and artists.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And yes, it's a business, but it.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Was like you rolled the dice to bet on culture that they were going to discover something new.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And when it became about data, it was like run over by this idea of using stories to just collect your clicks and your attention. And art and stories aren't about your attention. There is a patience to going to.

[Jeremy McCarter]

A theater and sitting in the dark.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And not having the control to skip forward.

[John Chu]

Right.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And so that's where it started to change for me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because everyone's mentality was different about what stories should be told or where the.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Money was going to be told.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because money speaks so much that it just. Everything shifted.

[John Chu]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

What was interesting is they resisted it forever. You know, they did resist it for far too long. And in terms of their own updating of them and allowed others to take control, one of which was Netflix. And that was. Was that part of your decision to turn down Netflix offer for crazy rich Asians? You took less money to stay and premiered at Warner Brothers. How much money did you leave on the table now? It was a huge box office hit. It gross $240 million worldwide. About that had been your metric for success with your previous films. Talk a little bit about that decision because you are tech forward, as am I. But there's something wrong. I agree with you. Something went wrong in the calculation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's where the fault line hit for me. Is that decision because how'd you ask me then? And is the argument of Netflix, which.

[Jeremy McCarter]

By the way, I love Netflix.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I watch Netflix. It's great. It's a different medium, though, than I think movies are. So when they approached it was. I think I really thought about what their Idea was you want everyone to see Asian as lead actors and beautiful, then you have to have as many eyeballs as possible.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And we are worldwide and we're day.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And date, and everyone will see on the same day and get it for free or get it for their subscription.

[Jeremy McCarter]

That is what your purpose is, and we fulfill that purpose.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I think what hit me was, yes, but. And I talked about this with Kevin Kwan, the author was it's movies, though, are in this. It's like a museum. And people pay money to go see the museum. It's the best of the best.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And you go there and you get people's attention. And the deal with the audience is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Different, the value is different.

[Jeremy McCarter]

They're gonna pay you money to sit in the dark and let you take.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Them on a ride, and they cannot leave. And that takes. And someone's going to pay hundreds of millions of dollars or millions of dollars.

[Jeremy McCarter]

To market these things to get you to go in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's part of the story beyond the movie. And that's what we were looking for always is. Like, when is a giant company going to market movie stars as looking like this, heroes looking like this? And in a streaming platform, again, this.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Is at that time and maybe shifting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But it couldn't change culture. In a weird way, reviewers and pundits could always determine, oh, this movie's good, this movie's bad, and it's gonna work. But what an audience can do that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

No other thing is they just show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Up and their vote is in the money. So movies like, even Oppenheimer, you're like, did you think Oppenheimer was gonna be.

[Jeremy McCarter]

A billion dollar movie?

[Cynthia Erivo]

No, but audiences showed up and proved that that could be. I mean, that's a giant version of that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

But, like.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And there's plenty of other movies that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You just don't think, and the audience changes it. So I knew that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And the real purpose of Crazy with Chasians was to change the habits of.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The world a little bit and see it differently.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so we took less money and chose that. We were in very privileged places in our lives where we could do that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And the way we saw that as the sign that we had to do.

[Ariana Grande]

That, was there a lot of pressure not to?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Oh, yeah. All the lawyers on that phone call were like, because we had 15 minutes to decide. Because everyone put down their offers at the same time. And Warner Brothers had actually put less down than they on their offer than they did the week before because, I don't know, they were being assholes. But that was hard to swallow. That was really hard to swallow because I was like, they're going to win off of trying to slight us. But I need that thing and we need to do this. This is why we're here. So I just think movies, there's a value. There was something I saw on the Internet where they're like, hey, you know when an envelope comes in and you just think it's junk mail, you toss it. But when a FedEx envelope is in the room that's never left unopened because.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The packaging is some sort of value that, you know something valuable is inside.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you pay more attention to it.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I really do think that movies have.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A framework that people pay more attention to and bring it into their lives.

[Ariana Grande]

Now do you think that's true now? Because Netflix has only gotten bigger, it's lapping everybody else. Although Disney's coming up with streaming is probably the number two player. How do you calculate these things now? You used to have a lot of power over production and distribution decisions. How do you think about that now?

[John Chu]

And I want to ask you about.

[Ariana Grande]

Project Popcorn and how it impacted you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that eyeballs and views don't equate to attention.

[John Chu]

Okay.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I have to think about where the audience's position is whenever they're watching a.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Movie or whatever they're watching.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If we're doing something for tv, I have to understand like where they are so I can meet them there and bring them into my world. And I often think that, you know, in Netflix, yes, the movies, the TV shows are high quality, great storytellers, serial storytelling, amazing. Those are like novels you can get dive into and those that's its own medium and they have some great cultural.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Shifting series, but that's because of their series. And you live with them for a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

While in terms of a movie and a two hour movie, I think a two hour movie and a streaming service is like nothing. It's like you're microwaving your popcorn. Yeah, exactly. And I see it because I see it in the movie theater when we show Wicked.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I see it when everyone's cheering at the end and they're standing up like that has an effect. And they want to bring their friends and that takes effort and it becomes.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A part of their life. I mean, look at the marketing effort in itself that we're presenting these characters. Sorry about that. You can't avoid it.

[Ariana Grande]

It's very good. It's very good. I don't think it's bad. I think that's actually brilliant, frankly.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And with a streaming service that's Just not your business. And so I think it's still the same.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I just think the quality of all these things are getting better just in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Their own islands of how you consume entertainment.

[Ariana Grande]

What was your experience within the Heights? When I'm referring to Project Popcorn, this is when they announced at the last minute it was going to be streamed at the same time as a theater release. Explain how that hit you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I found out 15 minutes before the world found out.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We had been in very close contact.

[Cynthia Erivo]

With Warner Brothers this whole time of making the movie because we got shut down during COVID We were in their final mix of it, which means we only had, like, two months before the movie was coming out. And so we all got together with Lin Manuel Miranda and the executives, and we decided we were going to hold.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And wait for a theatrical release until this thing is over.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So when I got the call out of nowhere saying, hey, we just want to let you know it's sort of over our heads. But they're doing this thing, releasing all movies on streaming. There was part of my brain that understood this.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Like, if had we had a conversation.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And they explained this, me of all.

[Jeremy McCarter]

People, understand the situation we're at. We have a movie. This could be another year. Will this movie be relevant in a year?

[Cynthia Erivo]

That's a valid question, but they didn't ask us. They just did it. And I also understand that that decision making in terms of they couldn't be bespoke to everybody. But that doesn't take away how. That takes away your trust for a studio that you've really fought for and worked with.

[Ariana Grande]

This is Jason Kylar at the time, correct? Jason Kylar?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah. I mean, I never met Jason Kylar. I met him once at our premiere, and he's a smart guy.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I get him. I get him.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I understand. I just think that the way they do it is different when you're working with artists.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We're pouring our lives into these things, and we understand. We're not idiots. We understand where we're.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that really hurt me. And that really made it see, like, oh, we're not.

[Jeremy McCarter]

They're not in charge anymore. The people that I trust aren't in charge.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's somebody above them that is driving this.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. It's making the decisions. But how did that change the way you make deals with studios? Wicked is with Universal with Donna Langley, who is impeccable taste, I would say, having a proper box office weekend release kicking off the holiday season. How did it change? And then I want to get into making of Wickedness and Everything.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, well, I mean, deal making is all different now. Now you got to figure out like, is this streaming? Is this not?

[Jeremy McCarter]

And you always have to know that there is a possibility, whether you think.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It'S theatrical or not.

[Jeremy McCarter]

They could flip the switch on you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like right now we have like trauma against this thing. And some people don't want to deal with that part of those deals, and so they just take a little bit longer. But places like Universal, who Comcast in that company, has a true investment in theatrical entertainment. I think the people who held onto this idea that you could trickle down.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The value of a property by presenting.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The story in movies and continue, like, I think that philosophy won in the end. I'm not sure, but there was a sense of like, okay, that actually could.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Exist instead of the way it was.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, six months ago, where it was like, oh, no, theatrical is totally out.

[Ariana Grande]

It will eventually go to Peacock, for example.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, exactly, exactly. And those deals are interesting because they can go on Peacock and they, they can sell it to do it to Netflix and all these places. I think that's the way we're going. But I think people like Donna Langley understand that and work. I've known Donna Langley for 20 years, so she can speak to me in those terms and not someone who's outside.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Of the storytelling business.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And especially something like Wicked, where it's.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Never, it's an IP that's never been.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Shot on stage or in movies or in animated. Those are the things I'm drawn to because I knew that we could make impact with this thing and we can make impact at a time that it.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Needed to be told.

[Ariana Grande]

It's also a big movie. Right. When I interviewed Ted Sarandos, he's like, there's either going to be the big movies and then everybody else is going to be on streaming. So let's talk about Wicked in the Heights. Wicked, both musicals, crazy rich Asians, had a similar over the top magical quality. It really did. And you said you wanted to create a delicious wizard of Oz world. Talk about your films, how they're connected creatively. And again, Wicked could have been a different movie, all green screen and cgi, but you built a set with a huge soundstage in England instead. In your book, you said you wanted to find a balance between cutting edge technology and old fashioned craft between these things. We've just been talking about. Talk a little bit about how the, how you've moved forward with these films and that to result in this one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, when I first started in the business, I was doing like Dance movies.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And I was raised in two worlds.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was raised in Silicon Valley and came to Hollywood and grew up in Hollywood. So I feel like I have a very good compass of which parts of each world work for what I do. So I'm always. I will never bet against technology. I mean, technology, when it. When it's coming, there's nothing you can stop.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I've seen it, I've witnessed it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And there's beautiful things that can come from it. And I think in my first seven.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Movies that I made, I was sort of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I was really young, learning how to make movies with a studio, with a giant company.

[Jeremy McCarter]

These weren't independent movies.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They were studio movies with franchises and fan bases. After I did Crazy Rich Asians, which was the one that I.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The first time I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Right before that, I figured out that I think I did my 10,000 hours and I was like, oh, I belong here. So I want to do something that makes me really scared. So I did Crazy Rich Asians. And when you witness something like Crazy Rich Asians, how that can change a landscape and change a group of actors and change how people see lead actors, it's really hard to go back. You realize the power of cinema. And when that bet pays off and right in front of your eyes, it never goes away. Like, okay, this is where. This is the power of movies. So within the Heights, we tried to do the same. And in Wicked, even more so. This is sort of the pinnacle of that. If I thought of those three movies as my new sort of view, it's.

[Jeremy McCarter]

My new View trilogy. Crazy Rich Asians in the Heights.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It's new view of classic stories that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Sweep you away to other lands but bring you home.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And again, redefining what beauty is, what family looks like, what a hero is, what a villain is, and actually sort.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Of kicks the tire on the American.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Story, the Americana thing that my parents grew me up on, which was very helpful.

[Jeremy McCarter]

But now for a new generation that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Now that I have kids may not be as helpful.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And what's the new story that America is?

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so that's what Wicked deals with.

[Ariana Grande]

It's also perfectly timed. We'll get that. For some reason, politically, it's propaganda. It's about misinformation. It's about the other.

[John Chu]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for the show comes from Delete me. Your data is a commodity, and data brokers can make a profit off of selling it, which can lead to phishing, identity theft, and endless spam calls.

[Ariana Grande]

Calls.

[Kara Swisher]

It's never been easier to find an individual's personal information online, even if you're not in the public eye. Well, Delete Me wants to help. Delete Me is a subscription service that removes your personal information from hundreds of data brokers. When you sign up, just provide the information you want deleted and their experts do the rest. I've tried Deleteme myself and I have to say I am very good at protecting my privacy and even I was shocked by how much was around, where it was, who had it, how they had assembled it, and the insights I've gotten is I am a little bit screwed when it comes to data and I need to do something about it, which I've done using Delete Me. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and use the promo code CARA at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Kara and enter code Cara at checkout.

[John Chu]

Out.

[Kara Swisher]

That's JoinDeleteMe.com Kara code Kara.

[John Chu]

Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Ramp. If you're a finance professional looking for a better way to maximize productivity and cut wasteful spending, then look no further than Ramp. RAMP is the corporate card and spend management software designed to help you save time and put money back in your pocket. It's the software that gives finance teams unprecedented control and insight into company spend. With Ramp, you're able to issue cards to every employee with limits and restrictions and automate expense reporting so you can stop wasting time. At the end of every month, Ramp's accounting software automatically collects receipts and categorizes your expenses in real time so you don't have to you'll never have to chase down a receipt again and your employees will no longer spend hours submitting expense reports. Now you can get started, issue virtual and physical cards and start making payments in less than 5015 minutes whether you have five employees or 5,000. And now get $250 when you join RAMP. Just go to ramp.comcara ramp.comcara r m p.comcara cards issued by Sutton bank member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.

[Bart Shear]

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[Ariana Grande]

The dance scenes are amazing. I'm going to touch on them for a second, especially the one in the library. I don't want to have too many spoilers since the movie is coming to US theaters on Friday, but talk about how you choreograph that scene for Wicked fans. It's this one.

[John Chu]

When you're dancing through the.

[Ariana Grande]

So talk about that scene and for people has this beautiful. You can see how much you love dancing. It has a beautiful element to it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I mean it's called dancing through life. It's Fiero, the prince, the rebel prince.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Who comes into the school and he's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sort of showing the other students who follow all the rules and follow the.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Story of the wizard and shiz University.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That breaking the rules is kind of funny. Sort of loosens them up. This is the beginning of what I call the wakening up of Oz. You know, Oz is this place that has.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The wizard has told the story that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You don't have to live in fear. You don't have to confront each other about anything. Happiness is the number one thing.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Follow this yellow brick road and there's.

[Cynthia Erivo]

A wizard that will give you your heart's desire. And then this is the first sort of. He comes in here and we have.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The spinning wheel, this giant spinning wheel.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Which sort of takes from like 2001 or from. Yeah, it did a Royal Wedding or things like that. We tried to take images of American cinema, not just American musicals, but American.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Cinema and put them in this movie.

[Ariana Grande]

It had a little Busby Berkeley. I'll tell you, I was very.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There's a little busby Berkeley.

[Jeremy McCarter]

There's even 80s John Hughes thing as you roll into the school.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like they're rolling into the parking lot.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Even ET at the end with the Drums. So there are all these little pieces because we are dissecting what the American.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Story is and what it means to us.

[Jeremy McCarter]

So in this scene, we have all.

[Cynthia Erivo]

These dancers and that spinning wheel. I mean, the insurance companies did not want this spinning wheel. And it took a lot of engineering to build it, and not just the tech of it, but also to build it into an actual set.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We built sets, 17 stages.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We built different sets on. We built Emerald City, we built Munchkin Land. We built a 60.

[Ariana Grande]

It looks like it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Ariana Grande]

It does not look like AI, I'll tell you that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And don't get me wrong, VFX is in this movie. We have flying monkeys, we have animated animals. But the VFX people would tell us.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Build as much as you can.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We worked with ILS and frame store.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Like, if you build as much, then we can only make it better.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And so that was really fun to just like, throw down in a way.

[Jeremy McCarter]

When we talked to Universal, we knew we were doing a moonshot.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We were like, we need to define why the movie musical is necessary now and why you can't.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You can only do this in this medium.

[Cynthia Erivo]

They would not spend this money in a Netflix thing.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You could not get the scope of the Netflix thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And this is, again, nothing against Netflix. I love Netflix.

[Ariana Grande]

It wouldn't look as beautiful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You just wouldn't shoot the. You wouldn't go to the moon in this. Like, this is a very specific thing. So I love reminding people. It's sort of a nod to the golden era of Hollywood, of Ben Hur or Lawrence Arabia.

[Ariana Grande]

It had a lot of those elements.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We can still do this.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Hands have touched this and painted. All the walls in the dorm room.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Are painted, hand painted. It's pretty incredible. The costumes, the hair and makeup. Getting 300 munchkins in hair and makeup in the morning, and they're arriving at.

[Jeremy McCarter]

2Am and they're there and I get.

[Cynthia Erivo]

There at 6 and you only have.

[Jeremy McCarter]

A portion of them ready. And each of them have to be different. They can't be the same.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So it was an enormous task by a lot of people. This was going to space.

[Ariana Grande]

Then, of course, there's Defying Gravity, the main song of the show. Although I would think there's a couple others I like even better. But it's a fan favorite and a really crucial scene, and you do it a little differently. I saw the original Broadway production with Idina Menzel and Christian Chenoweth, but Alfie is flying and singing. Talk about how you did that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Defying Gravity was probably the hardest thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I've ever shot in my life. Because it required all departments, it required our sets. When we're building it, we had like three different sections. We had the actual bottom with the staircase spinning up. We had the top, and then we had to have another top for the.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Outside because we needed room for the rigging.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because she was actually going to be.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Flown around and singing live.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So you can't do this if you.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Don'T have Cynthia Rivo.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. You sing live, even if you overlaid it later. Just for people that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, she couldn't even do it without. I had it as backup options. I think, hey, you know, we're going to be throwing wind at you. Like, if you want to just lip sync to it. She's like, I can't, I can't. So we were spitting her out.

[Jeremy McCarter]

She had to train for a year to learn how to do these stunts on her own.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And that's with visual effects, that's with costumes, because her cape plays a big role in this. And there's a huge emotional core to this because you have to be as.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Intimate as when she says, come with me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And Glinda, looking at her and without words, is saying, I can't.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And there's silence in this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So as big as the number gets.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We had to be very focused on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What story are we telling. And that intimate story of the separation of these two. And because it's the end of the.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Movie, it has to be emotionally satisfying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It has to be the thing that.

[Ariana Grande]

We'Re moving the end of the first half of the movie. It's a two part.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, yes, yes. But we had to make it feel like this was the end of a movie. So if you don't know anything about Wicked, I think you feel that's what was our intent, to feel emotionally satisfied that we were waiting for. And there's even her falling out the wind, which isn't in the show, and.

[Jeremy McCarter]

That falling out the window is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She has to earn her flight so that when she comes down, she has.

[Jeremy McCarter]

To figure out why she's flying.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And she sees her younger self and.

[Jeremy McCarter]

She grabs the broomstick and she goes up.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So when she says it's me, she.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Really means it's me. It's just taking the words that we've heard over and over again and giving.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Them real purpose and witnessing and living with that purpose so that the words.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Become even stronger and we see it in new ways.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it's interesting also, she's the. She's the dead center. I kept thinking, is Ariana Grande stealing this movie. And then I realized, no, they are so critical to get the chemistry between them. It's really astonishing chemistry, by the way.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And we never.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We never did a chemistry read between the two of them. We did chemistry reads with them, with other people, and we never paired them because I never thought they would pair. But when I realized that she was.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Galinda and she was Alphabet, like, no.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Question, then we sort of rolled the dice because we knew that they both shared this very rare power, their voice.

[Jeremy McCarter]

This ability to do something that physically.

[Cynthia Erivo]

People can't do and spiritually they can't do.

[Jeremy McCarter]

So they shared that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But they're very different people in how.

[Jeremy McCarter]

They see the world.

[Ariana Grande]

That's right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And when they came together, they actually.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I think, had a meeting together and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Said, let's on purpose, make this a beautiful experience. We had heard too many stories of when you get two divas together, like, what happens? And that has been something that we all have trusted in.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. It looks like a love fest on the print. No. So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Have a listen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Okay.

[Tony Award Winning Director]

Hi, John, this is Bart Shear, and I'm a fellow director. And I have a really wonky directing question. As you were making Wicked, what element did you plan meticulously for? Did you work incredibly hard to go a certain way and it ended up exactly the opposite of what you'd hoped for, and was it actually better in the end? I hope that's okay. It's a little wonky, but, you know, one director to another.

[Ariana Grande]

For those who don't know, I've recently interviewed Bart about his play. He was directing McNeil. He's executive producer of the Lincoln Center Theater and is currently working on the Broadway adaptation of the movie musical La La Land.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Wow, that's great. That's a good question. That's a really good question. That ended up up the exact opposite and maybe even better. I don't know if it got to the exact opposite, but there are areas that I didn't know where we were gonna end up and how deep it could go.

[Jeremy McCarter]

There's a scene in the Ozdust Ballroom.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Where Elphaba comes in and she's wearing a hat that Glinda told her was cool and actually is meant to humiliate her. And in the show, it is emotional by the end, but it's sort of.

[Jeremy McCarter]

A silly dance that she does.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She does like a witch dance.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Cause that's the conceit of the show.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And in our movie, that just doesn't work. Even Cynthia's like, I'm not a joke. I'm not gonna come in there.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And when she felt the humiliation, I.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Sent her and Christopher Scott, our amazing choreographer. And they worked out like, how does.

[Jeremy McCarter]

She find her space, her emotional space?

[Cynthia Erivo]

And what they found is it's just.

[Jeremy McCarter]

These little movements and it's not a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Defiant, like, this is who I am.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And screw.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was like instead of the control that she's being asked to have over her emotions, she surrenders to her own powers and she just barely is there and she's. It's.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And she. And the fact that it's silent, like.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I didn't think that could survive in this movie. In a movie like this in the middle of a musical number.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And the way Cynthia and Ari play.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This, of these two women finding each other in this humiliation and being totally vulnerable.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And then Glinda has to walk in and strip herself of all the things that she.

[Cynthia Erivo]

She holds dear. And they're both there not knowing what to do next. And when their hands touch, she offers her hand out and they touch. To me, that was the most beautiful. It's like they're gonna. She's gonna teach her and they're gonna do this together. And I did not think that we could retain that kind of silence and.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Emotion in this movie for that long.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it really speaks to people.

[Ariana Grande]

Right. That's not something you planned.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Not something. I mean, we didn't plan it at first. No, that's for sure.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It was only when we saw it and started.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah. It could have gone a number of different ways. So one of the things you also do. Because that was a very human moment. Right? That was an extraordinary human moment through the. Of all these films. The importance of finding and appreciating your own identity, which is what you're just talking about there. That hasn't been smooth sailing. You said you regretted the depiction of South Asians and crazy rich Asians. And there was criticism after Inda Heights that the Afro Latino community felt underrepresented. Have you changed your casting and pre production process at all to address that? And Wicked has a very diverse cast, but it's quite effortless, actually. It feels like an effortlessly. It doesn't feel like you're. I'm seeing it happen, if that makes sense.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I mean, I think that that was the intent with Wicked, that it was. That it's. If you're retelling a timeless story, a story that feels like it should have.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Been there for all these years in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Hollywood, then it should feel like all these iconic Characters are just. It's just normalized that the kids in the school are all sorts of people and shapes and sizes, and the design is made for that.

[Jeremy McCarter]

That accessibility is just a part of a family.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We might be the first fantasy movie where we have accessibility ramps and stuff.

[Jeremy McCarter]

For characters that exist there.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it's not really a big part of the story. It's just these people who live there. And I am really proud that we do that because that takes more thought in design.

[Jeremy McCarter]

It takes breaking out of the mold of thinking.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And in casting, it's like Madame Warble.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Can she be Michelle Yeoh? Yeah, she can be. And you're not compromising anything.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's the main thing is this is not some exercise to compromise anything.

[Jeremy McCarter]

This is the way the world looks.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Now in these classic fairy tales. To actually imbue that is something that was very important to me.

[Ariana Grande]

Did you learn something from the previous experience when you thought that maybe you hadn't done it quite right?

[Jeremy McCarter]

Yeah, I mean, in Crazy Rich Asians.

[Cynthia Erivo]

With the South Asians, it's hard because those are. I think. I didn't know the argument was like.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Do you have more South Asians in those scenes?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes, I would have.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I didn't know Singapore as much as.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I did eventually when I went in there. And I would have had a lot more different people and cultures that were.

[Jeremy McCarter]

In some of those scenes. And I would have treated some of.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The characters in there a little differently, give them a little more human side to them. The fact is, the book itself doesn't have those characters, so it's hard to, like, just create characters out of. Out of nowhere. So there are things that I'm much more hyper aware of that I ask a lot more questions. Because sometimes I think it's these blind.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Spots that you just are learning at the same time.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And what I really learned was you got to talk to everybody, but also, like, you got to keep going. Like, if you're on the front lines.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Of this stuff, there are things that are happening all the time that you're learning. Oh, you call them Latinx or not Latinx.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, that debate was happening even to this day. And I don't still know what to say. And I say nothing but being aware of it. Say nothing but being aware of it is really important in hearing the conversation. Thank you. So those are. Things are hard, but that's what I'm made for. I made a decision that if you're going to be on the front lines, you have to be able to take the bullets and you have to be.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Able to keep going.

[Cynthia Erivo]

If you can't, then what are you doing?

[Ariana Grande]

What are you doing here? Absolutely. So you did full physical sets, but you still are still a tech freak. I read you edited Wicked using Vision Pro. So editing virtual reality. Did you really?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, I did it when I was remote. Yeah. When I wasn't going in. Because usually if I go remote, we.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Made a whole little system at the.

[Cynthia Erivo]

House because I have all these kids now, and we built this whole system.

[Jeremy McCarter]

But once I got the Vision Pro, I found it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It changed the game for me because I put it on and I wasn't.

[Jeremy McCarter]

On a computer with my editor over.

[Cynthia Erivo]

In somewhere else, which feels very limiting. I don't get interactive with it. My blood's not pumping.

[Jeremy McCarter]

But with the Vision Pro, I could make the screen as big as the room.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And I could walk around and pace the way I do in the edit room. I could lay on the couch the way I do in the edit room.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And then I could bring it closer. We were doing visual effects on it.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And so I could give notes and use my finger to, like, mark things. And this is people in the Bay Area.

[Cynthia Erivo]

This is people in London. This is people in Canada. And 40 people are on this. And I'm on my couch and I can look at it, what it looks like 20ft wide, and what it would look like on an iPad. And I love that.

[Ariana Grande]

Do you see you doing that more?

[Jeremy McCarter]

I do see that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I mean, listen, being in person, nothing quite beats that yet. But I could see us eventually if we could see the same things in the same room. I look at monitors, physical monitors now, and I'm like, oh, that's gonna go away. That's gonna go away.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Jeremy McCarter]

As soon as these things are small.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And are in contact lenses, like physical monitors. Why do we even have the space for that?

[Jeremy McCarter]

It's crazy.

[Ariana Grande]

I know. Like, I'm always doing that. I'm like, put it there. Put your phone. Yeah. I'm a big proponent of Vision Pro. Other people aren't. I'm like, it's the future. It doesn't matter directly. It's correct. So you've played around with AI in the past. As I understand it, there's no AI in Wicked. That's correct. How do you envision using AI in movie making?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, I'm learning every day about AI, and this is just for creativity. Like, of course, AI in all other.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Walks of life are much bigger issues.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And bigger things that it's going to be doing. But in just our business alone, it's extremely powerful. I think it's a new democratization of.

[Jeremy McCarter]

How you express yourself.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And just like, you know, digital video editing or having programs like in the 3D Studio Max or things like that, it a kid in their bedroom like me would be creating stuff. And that will be a medium of something. There's no doubt that that is here. I think when we think about how to tweak that, and we don't know the answers of how you're going to.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Tweak that to make.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Make it. What we are actually thinking is really hard. So I don't know exactly where it goes. I do know it's really important for us to play with it and understand it, because if we don't, we're the only ones who know what to protect or not to protect in our creative process. And someone else is going to determine that like they did last time, if.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We don't aren't fully immersed in this.

[Cynthia Erivo]

So we can't be scared of it. And this is happening at a rate.

[Jeremy McCarter]

That is way faster than anything we've ever seen.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we've watched.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You've seen a lot of technology.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You know, this is happening.

[Jeremy McCarter]

This is the greatest. This is.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Everything was built for this moment.

[Jeremy McCarter]

The Internet, the computers, the flat screen, all that stuff goes away because it.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Was only made for these connected connections that are happening right now.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah.

[Jeremy McCarter]

No matter how many times we repeat.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That, people don't fully get that. So creativity is like one little rock in that. And we'll figure it out. And we put value on what we want. An audience ultimately puts value on what we think is valuable.

[Ariana Grande]

It'll be interesting because it's getting better. But you're going to lean into AI. You're going to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Obviously, as I said, I will tell you this.

[John Chu]

Ideas.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Where do you see using it in ideation? You know, when we're designing something, it takes me two months with artists, a group of artists, to figure out kind of the zone that we're going in. Then another two months to hone in on that zone.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I think we'll get those two months out of the system.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I'll just be like, here's a hundred different things. Here are the five that I really like. Let's start here, and let's use these artists to start here. I will say that when I'm working.

[Jeremy McCarter]

With Cynthia and Ari, for instance, you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Cannot produce, predict the things that they.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Do in this movie, even if you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Had all the information of what they've done in the past. You don't know no computer could create the moments that happened her, wink at.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Her when she ties the thing. These are all things that happen in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

The moment and that's what we mine in the movie. Our editor Myron Gerstein is very good.

[Jeremy McCarter]

At mining the things that you could not have thought of in your bedroom.

[Cynthia Erivo]

You could not have thought of in a meeting. And that is actually the power of movies. And those things will always be sacred. And I don't know how to even. Yeah, measure that.

[Ariana Grande]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Miro. While a lot of CEOs believe that innovation is the lifeblood of business, very few of them actually see their team unlock the creativity needed to innovate. One problem is that once you move from discovery and ideation to product development, outdated process management tools, context switching, team alignment and constant updates massively slow the process. But now you can take a big step to solving these problems with the innovation Workspace from Miro Miro is a workspace where teams can work together from initial stages of project and product design all the way to designing and delivering the finished product. Powered by AI, Miro can help teams increase the speed of their work by generating AI powered summaries, product briefs and research insights in the early stages of of development. Then move to prototypes, process flows and diagrams. And once they are, execute those tasks with timelines and project trackers all in a single shared space. Whether you work in product design, engineering, ux, agile or marketing, bring your team together on Miro. Your first three Miro boards are free when you sign up [e-mail]. that's three free boards at m I r o.com.

[John Chu]

Support for the show comes from Range Rover Sport. What makes a leader is a tough question, but one thing's for sure, a true leader leads by example and a.

[Kara Swisher]

True leader takes risks.

[John Chu]

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[Ariana Grande]

I cannot tell you in the many.

[John Chu]

Years I've covered corporate issues how unusual these statistics are. And to point it out is critical. A company's board should reflect a company's customers. You cannot create great products without understanding those customers, and you cannot create those products unless there is diversity of all kinds, not just gender diversity in the executive and C suite roles. It's time to change the board game. It's easy to start there. Visit elfbeauty.com changetheboardgame to learn more.

[Ariana Grande]

I want to talk about the moment we're in. Obviously, this is premiering after the election. Unusual timing for you, but Wicked has deeply political messages and they actually dovetail with today. She's obviously pushing back against technocrats who want to spy and control Oz. We're right in the middle of a surveillance economy. There's a huge misinformation campaign, and you make that rather explicit. There were also, by the way, Dreamers protests in the Heights, but we're obviously in pretty fraught political times for immigrants, for women. The day after the election, you know, everyone was like, are you scared of Elon Musk? Doesn't like Kara Swisher, but they said, are you scared of him? And I wrote, no wizard that there is or was is ever going to bring us down. And I said, and if you want to call us wicked witches, so be it. We look good in green. And I really did feel that it was an important movie to see for me at the time, because what do you think the messages are? Because they do dovetail. You know, you could see Elon Musk as the wizard, someone who became. Became mutated and toxic when starting off. Delightful. Perhaps he was never delightful, but Steve Jobs was delightful. May I just tell you, Steve Jobs would have hated Elon Musk.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Today.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Thank you.

[Ariana Grande]

I keep putting 100 fucking percent. Thank you.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I love you. I think it's all of us. First of all, a old man gaslighting a whole nation that this woman is Wicked because she's confronting him about alienating.

[Jeremy McCarter]

A whole group of people in the society.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, yeah, it's pretty clear. The issue is that didn't exactly happen when we were making this movie or when it was written. Wicked was made in 2002 where we're coming out of 911 and we're about.

[Jeremy McCarter]

To go into war. It's America in transition. Wizard of Oz came out of when America was in transition. Even the movie was made at a.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Time where everything was in transition. And I think L. Frank Baum always wanted to make the American fairy tale with American, which I think he was saying it was like optimism, self reliance and resilience. And so for me, the real timelessness of it is that this is something that as a process that we go through and we get choices, which road.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Are we going to take?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Do we rise or do we go along with it or keep walking on that road? I think we always rise, but we.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Need artists and we need people to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Then remind us of who we are. And I think, and because I grew up in this American fairy tale myself, I feel very.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And having kids now feel very defensive.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That these ideas are still on the table, that we do not have to go into fear mode in order to get something done. And I think that this movie hits on that.

[Ariana Grande]

Yeah, it certainly does. I think it's gonna be politicized, I'm sorry to tell you, but I think it is. But Trump's rallying of anti Chinese sentiment during COVID even before that, to lead attack on Asian Americans, for example, you wrote about that in your book. Are you concerned? And again, Elon Musk is anti anti immigrant, but he has a special relationship with China, largely financial. Are you worried about that returning? Do you think about that? You're making crazy rich Asians too, by the way, or developing it, Right?

[Cynthia Erivo]

We're developing it.

[Jeremy McCarter]

We're developing it.

[Ariana Grande]

We'll see how we're ln development of that movie. I know I read the ups and downs, but is that something you're worried? You wrote about it in the book itself. Are you worried about that?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yeah, I mean, I didn't think that would exist in my world until it did during COVID It was shocking. And in a weird way, I remember my sister calling me and she was like, do you remember when we were.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Walking across the street from the restaurant and that car pulled over and told us to go back to our country. And it was just you and me.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we were like, really young. We were going to the tower records. And I was like, no. And she kept describing it and suddenly I was like, oh, yeah, I remember it. But I laughed at that. I didn't think it was that. I just thought these people were ridiculous. And. And it hit me that there were all these moments that actually those things were happening all along that I just sort of ignored. And, yeah, I'm worried that because it.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Was just underneath the surface this whole time and seeing this election, you realize, oh, yeah, it's all underneath the surface.

[Cynthia Erivo]

No matter what we've tried to paint over, it's just underneath there. And in order to confront it, we.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Actually have to deal with the ugly parts.

[Ariana Grande]

Right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That feels both scary and nobody wants. Even in our movie, we have this song. What is this feeling?

[Jeremy McCarter]

And it's not loathing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

We always decided it's not loathing. It is.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You resist the person that's going to.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Change the rest of your life because nobody wants to change. And I think we have to get.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Ready for the uncomfortable fight and the uncomfortable and the yelling at each other. We are all roommates all of a sudden.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Technology has made us roommates. And we're like, you live here? Yeah, I live here. Put the dishes away.

[Jeremy McCarter]

No, that's the one.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I leave dishes there. And I think we're growing up in a way that now we have to look at our roommate in the eye.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And figure out how the fuck we're.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Going to live with each other.

[Ariana Grande]

Right? Right. Right. I wish they were as charming as Cynthia and ariana, but Hollywood and silicon valley are now intertwined more than ever. I was talking to tana hassie coates about the role of writers and journalists last week, and he said, journalists need to remember that risk taking is part of the job. At the end of your book, you write, considering what I've seen of silicon valley in Hollywood, I don't feel hugely optimistic about the future of that relationship. Relationship? I can imagine the famous old studios ending up as minor divisions of tech companies. Movies would act as a little bit of sugar to get your data for the benefit of advertisers. Not just your credit card number, but your taste, your sense of humor, qualities that lie much closer to your soul. I don't like the look of that future. But if it comes to pass, it becomes more important, not less. That we flood the system with our dreams and visions, that we keep telling new stories about who we are and who we want to be. This feels risky to me, calling out the tech bros. I like it, I don't dislike it. I do it all the time. And they do not like criticism. Are you concerned as this moves, the kind of films you want to make? Many of the movies have require big cast, big sets, big money. Do you think filmmakers can continue to play the role of truth to power? And do you feel conflicted making sugar like for this data?

[Cynthia Erivo]

Well, yes and no on all those things. I think that the storyteller has a role 100%. We've always had it. It is what people need, leadership. People need something to head toward. They need a horizon line. It's why people go to strongmen. It's because when things are not known, they go to the person that's taking the lead. And we need visionaries like the wizard.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Like the wizard.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And we need those visionaries now. I'm selling a movie right now. So of course it's like, oh yeah, movies, movies, movies.

[Jeremy McCarter]

But the reality is between you and.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Me and your listeners, it's like, I don't know where movies are going to go. But the number one thing that I always learned was I'm a storyteller and that storytelling can be done in sound. It can be done in the design of a font, it can be done.

[Jeremy McCarter]

In words, it can be done in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Many different things in podcasts. And I think that the storyteller, as someone who embraces these mediums and owns these mediums and is able to put in the dreams and hopes and the optimism of what we, I think all.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Want this world to stand for, the great experiment to still live.

[Cynthia Erivo]

I think that's where we have to.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Flood the gates on.

[Cynthia Erivo]

It may not be movies, it may just be the other things, something else. Yeah, but we have to know that that's what we're doing.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Be conscious that we are storytellers in.

[Cynthia Erivo]

All these mediums and.

[Jeremy McCarter]

And I believe that the human spirit will always live through those things.

[Cynthia Erivo]

But we have to be clever.

[Ariana Grande]

You sound like Steve Jobs.

[Jeremy McCarter]

I am indoctrinated.

[Ariana Grande]

He was always selling a phone too. Just so you know. So my very last question, then. You have part two of Wicked coming out in November 2025. We talked about the development of Crazy Rich Asians too. You also a musical adaptation of Crazy Rich Asians on stage. Another movie musical, Joseph and the Amazing technicolor dreamcoat. A Dr. Seuss animated mov of Britney Spears biopic memoir, the Woman in Me. I'm trying to figure how that fits in, but I kind of see it. How do these tie together? What do you want to make next? Because you're a maker, and so is Steve Jobs, and I really appreciated that about his life because he was a maker. What do you want to make now, given all these different things? What is your mood right now?

[Cynthia Erivo]

I really appreciate you saying that about Steve because I feel that about him. I feel him whispering. Make it, make it. Figure out what's next and make it. And also, you don't have to plan.

[Jeremy McCarter]

So far ahead either.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Like, listen, I always say we can plan as much as we want in this movie, but at some point, the movie starts to speak back at us, and you better be listening, because when.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You hear it, then you can lean into those things.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And I'm not a destination person. There's not one movie that I dream of making, and that's it. Maybe Wicked was a piece of that, but it wasn't like, once I make that, I'm done. I love process and I love starting with the idea, working with people, figuring it out and trusting that where we're.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Going, we're going to build the thing.

[Cynthia Erivo]

That we need and love, that it's precious to us and it will be precious to others. And so that's what I focus on. It's maybe why I have so much in development, because I'm like, I don't know. It could be this. It could be this. I'm going to work with these amazing people like Pasek and Paul, who are.

[Jeremy McCarter]

Amazing music writers and Andrew Lloyd Webber, and we'll see what feels the right.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Moment and what I'm supposed to be at that time.

[Ariana Grande]

It's hard to do that.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Yes.

[Ariana Grande]

It's hard to be quiet.

[Cynthia Erivo]

What my parents said to me was, you can do anything, Jon, because we have a restaurant, you'll never go hungry. We have a house, you'll never go homeless. So any decision you make, do it fearlessly. And you have the biggest advantage.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You think you don't have any advantage.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Because you don't know people in Hollywood.

[Jeremy McCarter]

You have the biggest advantage.

[Cynthia Erivo]

And it really is true. It really is true.

[Ariana Grande]

Well, in getting back to your dad when we started what I think real artists are as chefs, anyway, what you've done here is made a beautiful movie. I recommend. I have never liked a movie more recently than this one. It has a heart.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[Ariana Grande]

It's really beautiful.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you.

[John Chu]

Thank you so much.

[Ariana Grande]

I really appreciate it. And I hope everyone goes and sees this movie and you make a baedillion dollars.

[Cynthia Erivo]

Thank you. And it's an honor to be speaking with you so you don't have to.

[Ariana Grande]

Go home and stay at your parents.

[Cynthia Erivo]

House pot stickers all day.

[Ariana Grande]

Hey, they're delicious.

[John Chu]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Caster, Roselle Kateri, Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's Executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher and Corinne Ruff. Our engineers are Rickwan and Fernando Aruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you want to be popular popular and you are. If not, you are wicked. But what does that actually mean? You'll find out if you see the movie. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

[Rickwan]

Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Lingo by Abbott Talking about healthy habits is a lot easier than actually implementing them. The key is finding out what works for you and your body. That's where Lingo comes in. It's a new bio wearable that tracks your glucose in real time. It gives you personal insights and recommendations that can help you learn to eat in the way that works for you. What I like about Lingo is the ability to track a lot of different things in your day. Whether it's the stress of dropping off your kid or putting too much sugar in your coffee, which is I do every day and I'm going to continue to do it in any cases. Knowing about the effect is really important and understanding it in a discreet, water resistant way that lasts two weeks and then is available on an app is really helpful so you can really see things in real time. So don't just eat right, eat what's right for you with Lingo. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 years of age or older, not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diagnosis diabetes. For more information please visit hello lingo.com.

[Claude]

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