← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:02]
Kara Swisher
It's on.
- [00:12]
Matt Richtel
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. Today we're going to talk about adolescents and how constant exposure to technology and social media is affecting them, maybe permanently. According to SAMHSA, in 2022, more than 1 in 3 U.S. adolescents between and 25 had some sort of mental health disorder which includes anxiety and depression. There's also a loneliness epidemic. Kids and adults are more connected than ever, but somehow we are more alone. The question is, how much blame can we place on tech like smartphones? What about social media? And most importantly, what can we do about it as adults, as parents and as a society? Because we are part of the problem too. This is one of these issues we talk about on the show a lot. I also talk about it on Pivot a lot and I'll continue to because I think the impact of social media and tech on us has become amplified, has become weaponized and it's the most important issue of our day as we seek to create community and it seeks to pull us apart. My guests today have been looking at this in different ways. Lauren Greenfeld is an award winning artist, documentary photographer and filmmaker who's been tracking the lives of American adolescents for decades. Most recently she created and directed an Emmy nominated five part docu series for FX called Social Studies. About a year she more or less embedded with a group of teens in California starting right after the pandemic, including getting access to the Holy grail, their phones and social feeds. It's an eye opening look inside the relationships with social media and one another. I love this series and in fact we had Lauren on Pivot when it first came out to talk about it. It's a must watch for any parent. Matt Richtel is an award winning journalist and author who covers health and science for the New York Times. Richtel has been covering the social impact of tech industry for as long as I've been covering. We often competed with each other. His latest book, How We Grow Up Understanding Adolescence draws on neuroscience and personal narratives to explore the changing complexities of the teen brain and the role that technology plays in that. And Jack Thorne is an award winning playwright and screenwriter who has his name on way too many things for me to list off right now. But his recent hit Adolescence, which aired on Netflix, is a crime drama co created with Stephen Graham that addresses the psychological toll of toxic masculinity, bullying and social media radical after a teenage boy kills his female classmate. It is an incredibly disturbing show and at the same time another must watch and actually done incredibly thoughtfully and very creatively with one shot cameras throughout the four episodes. You must watch it if you're a parent. You must watch if you're not a parent. It's been nominated, not surprisingly, for 13 Emmys, including best limited series or anthology. This issue isn't going away, of course. In fact, it's getting faster. It's unclear if the new AI companions and chatbots that are growing in popularity will help or exacerbate the mental health crisis. I'm assuming exacerbate this conversation is real food for thought, so stay with us. Support for this show comes from Sixpenny. Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with extraordinarily comfort slip covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces, plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. You can order fully customizable furniture in an assortment of gorgeous all natural and recycled fabric, solid woods and characteristic stone. You can visit sixpenny.com kara for a leisurely browse through their impeccably designed pieces and perhaps even order yourself some free swatches. That's S I X P E N-N-Y.com CARA.
- [04:15]
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- [04:46]
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- [05:32]
Jack Thorne
It is over.
- [05:34]
Matt Richtel
Lauren, Matt and Jack, thanks for coming on on.
- [05:37]
Kara Swisher
Thanks for having us thank you, thank.
- [05:38]
Lauren Greenfield
You for having us.
- [05:39]
Matt Richtel
All right, so I'm glad to have you all you on because you've spent so much time in different ways looking at kids these days and the impact of social media specifically. You're also all parents and as you know, I have four kids, two in their 20s and two young ones. I want you to talk a little bit about how your kids have influenced the way you think about and approach this. I have two different situations. The young kids have never been on social media, they're too young. And the older ones where they're quite in the center of the white hot beginning of the social media and both of them are off of social media, which is interesting. Matt, you start then Jack and then Lauren.
- [06:15]
Lauren Greenfield
First of all, thanks Kara. It's been a long time and it's great to see you and talk to you. Watching my kids and their friends has tremendously informed me in this respect. I've looked at a ton of research and I've seen the universal and then I've watched them and I've. It's made me realize there's tremendous nuance to this subject because different young people react very differently. And so it forces you or it forces me to really dig deep and scrutinize what I'm looking at in the research so that I can account for the distinctions among young people I see.
- [06:51]
Matt Richtel
With my own eyes you've taken a science based approach. We'll get to that in a second.
- [06:55]
Jack Thorne
Jack, my child is 9, hasn't been on social media at all. So no, wasn't particularly, you know, an example for me to follow. More the fear of the place that he's going was a massive inspiration for me.
- [07:11]
Matt Richtel
And why is that?
- [07:12]
Jack Thorne
Because I didn't understand it and I wanted to understand it. And you know, our project started with a question which is why is there more violence of adolescent boys towards adolescent girls? That was the starting point for all of our thinking and our investigations were particular rather than trying to be general. And I was simply trying to understand someone like Jamie and what Jamie might be consuming.
- [07:37]
Matt Richtel
Lauren?
- [07:37]
Kara Swisher
Well, social studies was really inspired by seeing a difference in my two kids. One, my youngest was 14 when I started and my eldest was 20. And the 20 year old was a reader, had like huge focus, was on just to talk to his friends. My youngest was very addicted. We had constant battles over screen time and during COVID I started to see real mood swings from being on screens all day. Like he would be ornery and shout at us and there was like a direct relationship that you could see from being on the screens. He ended up really helping me with the project because he knew the language. So he actually ended up really advising me on it. In the show, we have access to all the kids phones and we had to figure out the technology to actually get that material. And I hired an engineer to help me and the engineer couldn't figure it out. And my son ended up hacking the socials. And I loved in adolescence, just to fangirl Jack for a second, the way the detective also has that connection with his son where he teaches him the language. Like even the. In social studies, we really tried to talk to both teenagers and young people and parents. And so using the language authentically was really important. And so like in the opening sequence, the map is very Snapchat influenced, but that's something only young people get.
- [09:08]
Matt Richtel
Absolutely.
- [09:08]
Kara Swisher
So, yeah, just seeing the change and wanting to look at, okay, how is this thing affecting this first generation that's grown up on it? And I think my younger son was also kind of like that guinea pig generation where we did just kind of give him a screen because we were busy with the oldest or, you know, we had already done it with one.
- [09:30]
Matt Richtel
Or we didn't know the deleterious effects. Let me just continue with that just for a second. Your docu series, Social Studies is a social experiment. And it's Emmy nominated, by the way. Congratulations. As with adolescents, you've just talked about how you. You convince this group of teenagers not to only let them film them and talk about their social media, but to actually give them access to their phones. Most kids won't even let adults see what's on their screens. When you came on Pivot last year to talk about the series, you told us the timing was right because you started filming just after Covid. Just expand. Why? That was a crucial moment. Just a tiny bit more.
- [10:05]
Kara Swisher
I think it was kind of the perfect natural experiment because young people were so dependent on it during COVID and their use had shot up and when they went back to school, they did it with a lot of social anxiety. I like, I think a lot of parents thought kids were super eager to get back to school. But actually what I found is there was so much social anxiety that some kids didn't even want to go back to school. And the use had gone up to 8 hours, 10 hours, 12 hours a day. But once they went back to school, it didn't go down. Like they were used to having it be part of every aspect of their lives. And I think they felt like something was Wrong. That the isolation was definitely very tangible to them. And so I think that's why a lot of them chose to do this very courageous move of being in this show, because it did mean really exposing their social. And by the way, my own son would not let me look at his phone. That was also part of my desire to get in there.
- [11:07]
Matt Richtel
Yeah, my sons show me their phones too much, unfortunately. But Jack, as I mentioned, you and your co creator, Stephen Graham have also racked up a slew of Emmy nominations for this Netflix show, Adolescence. And I thought it was very canny, especially the part where the therapist was talking to Jamie about why he was on social media even though he was not popular. Right. And why he was there lurking and putting up. It was almost cruel, the way she described it, but actually accurate. You said you were initially just aiming to write a show about knife crime, talk about how it became about social media and specifically incel culture. In the Guardian, you wrote. Let me just read this. Jamie is not a simple product of the manosphere. He's a product of parents that didn't see a school that couldn't care and a brain. It didn't stop him. So talk a little bit about this. How did it morph into that?
- [11:56]
Jack Thorne
Yeah, I mean, I don't think he's. I hope what we were doing in the show was that he's a product of many things and I hope we're not. What we're not saying is that. And there was one quote in that article that I miswrote slightly so that it seemed like I was suggesting that Jamie was solely a product of incel culture. Solely a product of the manosphere, which is a very, very complicated and not easy to understand place at the best of times. But when we were writing it, Stephen had this rule that he didn't want to make it about. Ah, it's because he had an abusive dad or, ah, it's because he had an alcoholic mum. What we instead arrived at was that there were these sorts of spheres of blame and I was struggling. I couldn't quite find enough that made it compelling for me. And then someone that worked with me, Mariella Johnson, said, I think you need to look, look at incel culture. And as soon as I started looking there, I felt like I had a story that was more interesting. And then I started to build it out, tried to understand it, tried to read as much as I could, try to lurk as much as I could in unexpected places, and ultimately found some answers to some things which I knew if I was consuming at that age, particularly the 8020 rule, which is 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men. If I was consuming at that age, if I was told, you are going to have an abnormal life because of the way you look, because of the way you feel about yourself, I feel like it would have taken me down a chaotic path. Not the path that Jamie went down, but a chaotic path.
- [13:35]
Matt Richtel
The need for self esteem and the ability to be liked, which Instagram makes that instant in a way that's very warping, I think probably.
- [13:46]
Jack Thorne
Yes, yes, yes. And isn't solely a response to this moment and isn't solely a response to the Internet, is a response to how Jamie's brain works. And it is the question that I ask in most situations I'm in still to this day, and I'm 46, but has done a lot of damage to Jamie. And all these things combined have left his brain almost destroyed by all these different elements, which is why he does such a terrible thing.
- [14:15]
Matt Richtel
Right. So, Matt, let's talk about the idea of a brain that didn't stop him, a brain that's been damaged. In your book How We Grow up, you push back against the idea championed by Jonathan Hates, the Anxious Generation, and other places that smartphones and social media are the main cause of adolescent mental health crisis. First, explain why we're calling them adolescents and not teenagers. And then talk about the biological and neurological changes you write about in the book and how you push back against this.
- [14:39]
Lauren Greenfield
Yeah. And then can I, I, can I tell Jack what my mother in law said about his show?
- [14:43]
Matt Richtel
Sure, do that first.
- [14:45]
Lauren Greenfield
Jack, for all your other successes, you scared the bejesus out of my mother in law. And this will be a segue to what Kara asked me and she called me up immediately. She said, I must speak to you. Is that real? And this goes to your question, Kara. It. It's amazingly entertaining and there's some great thoughts in it, but we have become, I think, obsessed by a narrative that's deeply oversimplified. And the way to explain why that is is to get at what adolescence actually is. It's not the teen years. Those are a specific number of years. Adolescence is the period you enter at puberty where you go from being cared for by your family to eventually caring for yourself and conceivably your offspring, should you have that them. Why is this framing important over that period? Your brain as an adolescent is highly sensitized at the moment of puberty to begin to reconcile all the things your parents taught you. That's the Known and the unknown. That's all the things that are in the world that you have to test and see if they're true. The moment that we're in right now is one with a ton of information, but the device is only part of that. I think everyone on this call would concede that we are in a very complicated world. So when you are consuming and trying to reconcile the known and the unknown in a fast moving world, it's very difficult.
- [16:11]
Matt Richtel
Meaning the brain doesn't have the ability to do so. From a scientific point of view. Correct.
- [16:16]
Lauren Greenfield
What happens to the brain in this set of circumstances, and it's been growing for some decades, is that you're introduced to a lot of information when your frontal lobe, your prefrontal cortex is not fully developed. It's tempting to say the phone has created this problem, but I would remind our listeners, and this is so vital, that in the 80s, binge drinking was explosive. Drunk driving, injury and death was explosive. Early experimentation with sex was explosive. And at that time, the coping mechanisms were drugs and alcohol. So conceivably in this time, the device is helping young people to get through this while also intensifying the problems.
- [16:59]
Matt Richtel
All right, that's interesting, Jack. Shows much more complex. It's not social media. It's gotten written about like that. But that's not the case for sure.
- [17:06]
Lauren Greenfield
For sure.
- [17:06]
Jack Thorne
I hope you're not saying the show is oversimplified.
- [17:08]
Lauren Greenfield
No, no, I'm not. I'm saying that my mother in law oversimplified your show. I thought your show candidly was. I just couldn't stop watching it this morning. Jack, some friends of my sons were over and I asked them about your show and they said, that's so exciting. We watched snippets of it on TikTok.
- [17:29]
Matt Richtel
So, Lauren, as you mentioned, you've been doing projects with adolescents for most of your career. Talk about the changes you've seen in the behavior. As Matt is saying, look, nothing is new under the sun here. It's just a different delivery mechanism. Is that true?
- [17:41]
Kara Swisher
I mean, I think in terms of what Matt was talking about, social studies is really about coming of age in the time of social media. And we see how it's affected every aspect of growing up. I started looking at youth culture and girl culture in the 90s and 2000s, and I feel like I grew up and was a teenager in the time. Matt just alluded to the kind of less than zero, like drug kind of influenced time. And yet what I saw was everything I've looked at in my Career amplified by social media My first movie was about eating disorders. It was called Thin and it came out in 2006. And at that time, one in seven girls had an eating disorder. When I was doing an interview for social studies, one girl said, half my friends have eating disorders from TikTok and the other half are lying. I think what's changed is the triggers are so ubiquitous in the age of social media that it just amplifies everything that's already going on. I mean, of course kids have always worried about fitting in, comparing themselves to other people. Are you in the popular group? Are you, you know, do you need to do certain things to be cool? But now they're comparing themselves against so many people so much of the time, many of whom are not real. And the pressures are just really overwhelming. Like when we did the THIN project, one Dr. Said, biology makes the gun, society pulls the trigger. And that's just like. I think that what's changed is the 247 triggers and also a really kind of evilly engineered algorithm. You know, one thing I really took from some of Matt's work was the way that the algorithm is looking to take advantage of the fact that teenagers want social contact and want information and want something new.
- [19:38]
Lauren Greenfield
And can I connect that to a bit of science?
- [19:40]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [19:41]
Lauren Greenfield
I don't think we're disagreeing about whether there's an issue. I think we're talking about the mechanism and the place where I, I look at the science, which is what I do, is when you give people social media, some adolescents feel worse off and some feel better off. I think the question before us is in what way is this stuff affecting young people? And Lauren, I'd be curious what you'd say to this, but my impression is that that 247 tends to displace sleep, it tends to displace exercise, which lets people work through their emotions. It tends to displace in person interact, which helps us learn about each other's faces. But I'm not clear from the research that the mere act of using a device will lead to a problem. What's your read on that?
- [20:33]
Kara Swisher
I saw huge numbers of problems and that almost every kid said they would if they had the choice, they would rather be in a world without it. That, I mean, of course they're countervailing influences. Like some people are gonna have more self esteem or more support from their family or other things that are gonna or don't biology to have an eating disorder. But I found that even the kids who got something positive out of it, like Dominic for example, was lgbtq. He found affinity groups. He was politically active on there. He had a podcast. He used it in positive ways. But nevertheless, the bullying and the criticism of him about his body was worse than any positives he got. And I just feel like, you know, we kind of look at, like, okay, we have this thing, is it good? Is it bad? And I think, you know, of course there are a lot of great things from technology that young people get. A lot of the kids in the show are makers and use it for their creativity and eventually it helps them find their voices, which I think proves to be a great antidote to this comparison culture.
- [21:43]
Matt Richtel
But.
- [21:43]
Kara Swisher
But, you know, it's made to be addictive. And I think the other thing, you know, that I took from your work about novelty, it really connected me to what a lot of stories kids told about their loss of innocence. Like, Ivy talks about getting on Instagram and being really interested in baking and having all these pastel baking pictures on her feed and loving that. And then a picture comes up with a girl lifting up her shirt and showing her breasts. And she reads the comments of people commenting on that and starts to wonder what that is, the sexualization of women and what would happen if she posted a picture. So I think. And when I had a show of this work and all the kids said that happened to me. Like, I think there's a kind of new loss of innocence that every kid experiences.
- [22:34]
Jack Thorne
Can I just say that there's one statistic that I found really telling that Smartphone Free Childhood, which is an organization that works out the UK that's trying to encourage people to restrict smartphone use for under 14s. There's one statistic that they used in their talk, which I found incredible, which is by our National Health Service. And it says that in the last 10 years, outdoor accidents for young people have decreased by 70%. In that same time, incidences of self harm have increased by 93%. And I do think that tells a story, that tells a scientific story of what these devices are doing.
- [23:15]
Lauren Greenfield
I just want to say, Jack, you're dead on it. We've seen an eclipsing of the physical by the emotional. But again, I want to add some larger context to this. Since the 1960s, the exploration of young people has happened increasingly in the internal space. For many years, it was go west, young man. And the rest of that quote is, go west, young man, and grow up with your country. And when people, teenagers and adolescents, went outside, they got physical harm. We have been looking at, who are we? What is my sexuality? What Is my identity? What is my gender? How do I fit in? Those questions are not new to the social media era. And the risks to the mental health are just the way they were to the physical health in a prior era, certainly.
- [24:00]
Matt Richtel
But one of the things that Lauren mentions is that you wouldn't have known what you didn't know when you're on a telephone. It amplifies and weaponizes in a way that wasn't possible before. So it's a different flavor of stuff.
- [24:11]
Lauren Greenfield
It is absolutely true. I'm just urging us to say that this is not a singular challenge that this generation faces. It is singular in that it's social media. But adolescents have been going through a difficult period for a number of decades for a bunch of reasons, which is why I'm going to come to this punchline. If we merely take the smartphone away, we will not get at what's challenging them. We need a bigger set of solutions.
- [24:38]
Jack Thorne
But how is it different from cigarettes? Right, cigarettes. In the UK, we restrict the sale of cigarettes till 16. We're actually now phasing that so that children now will never be given the opportunity to legally smoke a cigarette. How are smartphones these incredibly addictive devices that billionaires. Billionaires have incentivized different groups to encourage people onto their systems and that their brains are fed by these systems? How is that not an addictive device that we can protect people from? And I hear you about it, goes back to Hamlet. It doesn't go back to the 60s, do you know what I mean? You know, it goes back through time itself. But why can't we say, you know what, they've got incredibly plastic brains, as you. As you yourself say, they've got brains that are incredibly easily influenced by things. Why can't we say the best thing to do for them is to pull back this device from them until they have a slightly better understanding of themselves and can use it more safely? I'm not saying remove it completely from society. I'm saying just keep it back from the most. The most at risk from these addictive devices.
- [25:48]
Matt Richtel
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- [28:32]
Kara Swisher
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- [29:05]
Matt Richtel
Lauren, I want to go back to what you said about how women are Being hypersexualized, abusive sexual behaviors, being normalized on social media. When you were on Pivot with me and Scott, you described pornography as the new sex ad. I'd love all three of you to talk about the. A bit about how you think social media is changing the dynamic between the sexes. Because that is one thing, the availability and proliferation of porn, which has been around since the beginning of time. But it's different now. And it is. And I can tell you from having sons, they talk about it, it's really quite a very different experience. And the long term effect. Lauren, why don't you start? Yeah.
- [29:38]
Kara Swisher
I mean, even though the violence in adolescence is a very specific kind of fringe behavior, the thing that, that triggers it with the girl having nudes go around is completely common. Like at one point in our discussion, I say, who's been sent a nude? Or who's sent a nude? And everybody's hand went up. I think one of the things we see with Sydney is the way it starts. She gets on social, she starts to post pictures of her passion, which is photography. She gets no likes. Then she posts pictures of her in a bikini at the beach. All of a sudden she gets likes. So she's getting approval for doing that. And then goes further and further, starts making thirst traps, starts having engagements with men she doesn't know, starts getting excited by the level of attention, the level of likes. They even talk about. Well, Kim Kardashian did a sex tape. If I could have that many followers in that lifestyle, I would do that too. So girls learn at an early age that showing their body and their sexuality is a way to get approval. And then the other thing I saw was just about, you know, kids being exposed to pornography super early, like third grade, basically, once they get that phone or once they have a friend who has a phone, it's that gateway. And what they see there is super disturbing, like way beyond, you know, maybe like your grandfather's girly magazine or whatever people saw before.
- [31:07]
Matt Richtel
Yeah. Or what stuff that we could get.
- [31:09]
Kara Swisher
There's violence against women. BDSM was a popular trend, which I confirmed. Like even asking my own children if they were familiar with that. Even the young people in my office were familiar with that. Choking was a trend. One girl jokingly says, you know, I actually like bdsm, but it's kind of scary cause teenagers don't know how to choke properly. So these are like very common, you know, things that pornography is the new sex ed. And I think that leads to a lot of performative kind of qualities. On the part of girls. A lot of boys not knowing if they measure up. And again, like comparing. Comparing against a totally unrealistic standard.
- [31:56]
Matt Richtel
I do remember a girl sent a picture like that to one of my sons. And I have to tell you, he was so confused and upset as a boy.
- [32:02]
Jack Thorne
Right?
- [32:03]
Matt Richtel
Because of course you'd be like, oh, girl looking sexy kind of thing. But he didn't quite know. He was not at an age to know what to do with it. And it presented a real problem. Problem for me to talk to him about it. But talk about this.
- [32:15]
Lauren Greenfield
Coincidentally, I did a story for the Times called It's Time to Talk to Our Kids about Pornography. And what they're getting at is that we may have to think about what is known as a harm reduction strategy in the era we live in. It used to be, let's say that your kiddo got a magazine with some pictures in it. It didn't come across as instructional. It wasn't nearly so explicit. But to Lauren's point, once somebody gets a phone, young people are beginning to see this. And it may be that the antidote is what is called porn literacy. It's a really hard and difficult idea to get your head around as a parent, but it goes to directly what you were confronted with. Do we have to tell our kids this stuff's out there? You're likely to see is very misleading. It is not a user's manual. Please talk to me or look up the fact that this is gravely misrepresentative because it's going to be pretty hard to keep them from seeing it all together.
- [33:18]
Matt Richtel
Yeah, that's interesting. One of the things that we just talked about last night was my kids were looking at some old kids were 7 or 8 and they seemed to have a phone. I don't know how we were like, we have to start Talking to our 5 year old about what she might see on someone else's phone. And now. And so you might see things that we didn't know it was on there. We didn't know if it was Paw Patrol or something worse. Race and racism is another issue. Matt, you write about peer pressure on a global scale for teens in Africa who are comparing themselves to Americans and Europeans. Lauren, the kids of color in social studies talk about social media favoring white wealthy kids in the same way it leans into sex and Jack, you said adolescence is focused on masculinity, not race. And right wing critics have called it anti white propaganda. Elon Musk amplified that on Twitter. I'd like each of you to Talk about it. Obviously, it's absurd what he said. But, Matt, start first talking about this peer pressure on a global scale.
- [34:10]
Lauren Greenfield
Yeah, everyone is your neighborhood now. And I think once you compared yourself to everybody in middle school and now it's possible to compare yourself well beyond that. Again, there are pros and cons to this. You can also communicate with people when you feel alienated. I think peer pressure is amplified tremendously, but I do not know that we can say that it is directly responsible for mental health challenges more than it was in the past. And I think to some extent you can see it through the same lens that you look at the way people used to look at America through movies.
- [34:47]
Matt Richtel
Fair point.
- [34:47]
Lauren Greenfield
And say, that's what I want to be like. To some extent, it's really served a corporate function because it's created such uniformity.
- [34:55]
Matt Richtel
Around tastes that they can then exploit that. Lauren, what about this idea of social media favoring white wealthy kids in the same way and how it impacts them? Did you anticipate that?
- [35:05]
Kara Swisher
No. I mean, I've looked at girls and body standards and beauty standards for a long time, and what I saw was that the comparison was just making everything worse and that a lot of the kids of color talked about the Caucasian beauty standard and how. And it's so quantifiable now because of your likes, that, you know, kids who were black and brown were trying to make themselves more Caucasian, like to get likes, whether that was having less body hair or lightening skin. And there was a very real sense that a lot of the kids agreed about was that this kind of white beauty standard was the most popular. I think the other thing that's kind of new, though, is instead of it getting better for girls, it's gotten worse for boys. And boys talked a lot about, you know, the beauty standard, the racial one, but also the body one, the needing to have muscles. I've been looking at a lot of social about enhancements and steroids. I think it even came out in like the TikTok research by the 14 attorney generals that they like. TikTok itself knew that more beautiful images were being favored. So I think it's pretty intentional.
- [36:20]
Matt Richtel
Jack, you talk about this idea of anti white propaganda. Your show, which I just. It's absurd to me, but I'd love you to address it.
- [36:29]
Jack Thorne
What happened was the show started to be more talked about and then there was a movement against us. I don't know whether it was in any way constructed or whether it just happened organically. And the movement against us was that we had Basically told the story of a specific case, and then Rey swapped the character, and there was no discernible details from that case that seemed like we'd copied. It's just that once someone said it, then suddenly everyone was saying it, and it went all over the Internet. What concerned me was not Elon Musk amplifying it, because I wasn't so surprised by that, but I was surprised by Kemi Badenoch, who's the leader of the opposition, saying that we'd done that. And it was one of those moments where you just go, it wasn't, oh, God, the right wing have taken over, or the. You know, it was, what's happening to our news in this country that someone's consuming something as truth because they've been told it on social media. And when the person that's consuming it is the leader of the opposition, that surely really, really concerns.
- [37:47]
Lauren Greenfield
Jack, can I just jump in on that? I think, to my mind, you've hit arguably one of the most profound points, is the information is so unreliable that it is leaving our young people not only overwhelmed, but really uncertain about what to trust and believe. And I guess my larger concern is even if we were to remove the smartphone for a few years, and I am an advocate for the that, but even if we do for a few years, they will matriculate and graduate into a world that is filled with lies. And so I think where you see me going is not disagreeing with you guys that the smartphone is an issue. It is. I don't know how closely it's directly responsible for mental health, but I think we have to think bigger. We are raising kids in a very, very chaotic world, and how are we going to help them understand the information when so much of it is untrue?
- [38:45]
Kara Swisher
I totally agree with you. I mean, one of the things we did with the show was make an educational curriculum. And I think media literacy is the absolute most important thing because it's also affecting all of our civic discourse and, of course, adults and adults.
- [38:59]
Matt Richtel
That's the problem. Adults are addicted.
- [39:01]
Lauren Greenfield
Yes, yes, yes.
- [39:02]
Matt Richtel
So if adults are addicted, you know, there's a problem. Matt, you talked about the displacement effect, how, as you notice, screen time is a thief of sleep, exercise, in person, activity. Lawrence and the kids you talked to missed how they having deep conversations. And adolescence is all about being isolated in some way, especially between parents and kids, and not just kids who go to extremes. One of the things the last episode of adolescence was about, that what do parents not know about what their kids are doing online from each of your perspectives and what we can do about that. I wanna start with you, Jack, because that parent episode was sort of. The parents weren't understanding what was happening.
- [39:40]
Jack Thorne
What they thought was they couldn't find a passion for Jamie to pursue, so they tried to help him, you know, get interested in football, get interested in judo, get interested in anything, get interested in drawing. And then he became passionate on the computer. And their thought was, well, this world is a world that's full of computers. And they weren't particularly computer users themselves. Neither had jobs that were computer heavy. And they thought, well, you know, this might be a way of him getting ahead. And so we're not going to challenge it, we're not going to encourage it either. We're just gonna. We're just gonna help him on his way. And if it is something that's interesting him and making him happy, then maybe that's a good thing. I've gotta say, as a. As someone that's spent a long time thinking about it and researching it, I'm still really confused as to how to help Elliot, my son. When Matt was talking about porn literacy, you know, at what age do I start trying to make him porn literate? And what Matt was talking about in terms of news, how do I guide him through? You know, when I was growing up, the BBC was the answer to everything. You know, I grew up with the 9 o' clock news and then the 10 o' clock news, and what it said on those news shows was what was real and what was true. And now we live in a world of quite dangerous nuance. And so, yeah, no, I'm deeply confused by it all.
- [41:05]
Matt Richtel
Lauren, why don't you go next? And then mat.
- [41:07]
Kara Swisher
I think one of the things our work has in common is identifying this huge generation gap. And I think parents don't have any idea what's going on. Like, even there's so many cases. And this is why it was so important in our show to actually see the social media where you'll see, like, Jordan and her mother right beside them, right next to each other on the couch at home. And mom is, like, doing work and shopping, super protective, doesn't let her, like, date. And meanwhile, Jordan is talking to boys all over the country and arranging a meetup that her mom doesn't know about. There's so many cases like that Maren had a secret account where she would find her pro anorexia media. And there was even a kid who took his own life who told his mom. Two weeks before that, there was a site where People were encouraging that and she was conscious of it. She was right there and still powerless to stop it. So. So I think I've been really encouraging parents to watch this with their teenagers and talk about it. I can't tell you how many parents have said I'm scared to watch. Like, parents like Sidney's mom in the first episode are like, I don't know if I want to know. Like, they really want to put their head in the sand. And I think kids in the show are just screaming for their parents and adults to support them with this. Like, they didn't create a. They need help navigating it. They were really eager to have the discussion. People are like, why did they share their phones? Why are they so honest? I think they're really eager to have the discussion and for adults to kind of do something to help them navigate this dangerous world. And I think we also all identified like parents kind of keeping their kids at home for safety. Like the safety fetish that's happened where you're worried like if you go to the park a predator will find you. And meanwhile, like not realizing there are so many more predators online.
- [43:02]
Matt Richtel
That is online. I'm aware of that one, Matt.
- [43:05]
Lauren Greenfield
Jack, can I take a shot at answering your questions? This is how I think about it and it's why I wrote How We Grow Up. I think the first thing we do is think about this in an inverse way rather than think about what we're going to keeping them off of. I think first we need to make sure our kids do the things we know, keep them healthy and that is a certain amount of in person interaction, the sleep that they need, some exercise. After that, we're not going to be able to keep them off the devices. They're too ubiquitous and we are modeling the behavior to the nth degree. The second thing is, Jack, when do we talk about this? I think of us as parents as the original form of social media. What we tell them at the dinner table, what we tell them when we drive in the car is the original source of information they hear. And I think this is a chance to be reasonable with that them to understand this is a world they're matriculating to and help them think through it in a way that doesn't make us sound hysterical because when we are totally fear ridden, we're actually adding to that information overload. So get the good stuff done first. Have reasonable talks with your kids.
- [44:14]
Matt Richtel
We'll be back in a minute.
- [44:27]
Lauren Greenfield
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Kara Swisher
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- [46:02]
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- [46:53]
Matt Richtel
There is a double edged sword that's related to this of being a place to build community online has been and it's been a great place for a lot of people but also fostering extremist or niche voices. Jack this is clearly the central in adolescence. Lauren One of the most interesting storylines in social studies was Nina and Ivy's family with their mom Sherry. Talk about how social media impacted them and first you Jack how you think about this idea of both building community and also fostering the negativity in terms.
- [47:22]
Jack Thorne
Of building Jamie into a real character. When I was looking online, when I was talking to young people, the thing that interested me was not the big boys, if you like. I wasn't interested in Andrew Tate. The only people that talk about Andrew Tate in the show are adults, because he's shorthand for those adults to understand what's going on. What interested me was spending time looking for peers of Jamie. So people that were between 13 to 15 years old who were talking about a game or they were talking about a film, or they were talking about, you know, different things in their lives, and then they started talking about women. And that was the story that I was trying to. To build for Jamie, which is he is interested in lots of things. It's just that the overwhelming thing becomes for him because of how he's treated at school, because of the particular friendship group he's part of his. He starts to become obsessed with the idea of being excluded. And I saw it happen to my own algorithm. The algorithm then fed that dissatisfaction until it became hate, and then the hate became overwhelmed.
- [48:36]
Kara Swisher
Lauren I think there is a limit to how great the affinity is on social media. I think it's such a performative space that real friendships are challenged. I mean, Ivy and Nina is a great example. Ivy was about 17. Nina was in her 20s. Nina did find community online LGBTQ transition acceptance for who she was that she didn't find at home, but she was a little bit older. She also had real friends that she had, like, developed over many years. She got together with those friends, those friends were actually supportive. Whereas her younger sister Ivy, who had grown up on social media, really did not find connection to friends and ended up pulling herself out of school and preferring to be homeschooled because the friendships were so anxiety producing. I mean, one of the things that. That the kids said in our show was they really loved the face to face contact without devices. And, you know, just going back to your comment about race, a lot of them went to this school that was very diverse, and yet kids in it were very segregated into groups. And I think that the social media just kind of siloed those groups even more. And Keyshawn, who was black and from South Central, said that this group, he had such a bond with this group, it was like a diversity of kids that he didn't feel anywhere else. And when the kids watched the show, it was really interesting. I wanted it very diverse so everybody would kind of find themselves, but they didn't identify with the kid that was their race or their socioeconomic background. They identified with the kid that had their problem, their bullying, their slut, shaming, whatever it was. So I definitely see the affinity bond and the political activism and it's there, but it's so manipulatable. And I think the whole performative quality, you know, it has to be counterbalanced or it has to be enhanced by real world relationships. And I think that the kids of this generation, especially the ones who went through Covid, did not get that training.
- [50:47]
Matt Richtel
So, Matt, toward the end of your book, you lay out a list of guidelines for parents and kids around smartphones. Pretty standard. No phones for bed or in the bedroom, taking breaks, setting time limits. My son bought himself a box and put his phone in it for hours at a time, which I think worked rather well actually, because. But it feels like this is your brain. Everybody knows it. A majority of Americans are not heeding the advice, including adults. Some of the people Lauren interviewed tried to go off social media and ended up going back on. Jack has suggested, as I have, if you have government ban smartphones for children altogether or use of it. So what do you think about the guidelines? Bans restrictions, because restrictions are always difficult. In France, they're having a hard time with age restrictions. They've talked about doing that here. Talk a little bit about the solutions and what works and doesn't work or what you think will work.
- [51:38]
Lauren Greenfield
I think we've got to reframe this conversation so that we create the right incentives. I think community will come from in person. And that means putting some things first before you use the phone. But here's what I mean by incentives when you're on the phone. Let's reframe this. For kids. I write a letter to them in this book called essentially don't let the technology industry own your own, your own shit it. And part of it is letting them know what's actually happening so that they begin to take back some control of their own lives. The other thing I would think about is an idea called intermittent fasting for your device. We're not saying don't use it all together. And in a prior book, A Deadly Wandering, which was about the science of attention, I get at this idea. It's actually kind of exhilarating, my kids. If you let your phone go for two hours and then see what comes out, comes up, the novelty is that much more exciting. I think we've got to change how we think about the relationship to a device that up to this point where the Narrative says yes or no. It's not going to work. It's not healthy, and it's not reflective of the world we're going in.
- [52:50]
Matt Richtel
Well, it's because you need it for work, you need it for a lot.
- [52:53]
Lauren Greenfield
You need it for everything. And parents modeled this behavior. Let's find some way to acknowledge who we are, are what it is, and what is the nature of our relationship together so that we can fix the tortured relationship between phone and human.
- [53:07]
Kara Swisher
You know what Matt was saying in terms of, like, times you're on and times you're off, the assumption is that we have to accept the way the tech companies are engaging with our kids right now. And I think, you know, Jonathan said it's our lifeline, but it's also a loaded gun. And the kids talk about how they can't go off. It's existential. If you go off, you don't exist socially. And, of course, social life is deeply important for adolescents. So I think that we have to demand more from the tech companies, from the regulators. You know, Jack and I work in filmmaking and tv. We have so many regulations that we have to do before something goes on the air about what you can show, what you need to take out. What is the point of all these regulations for TV and movies and advertising when it's just a wild west on social And I think the advertising thing. I'm also really curious about Matt's look at the science, because I thought that people were not allowed to use brain science in advertising. That was traditionally verboten, and now it seems like the algorithm is deeply connected to the most vulnerable parts of the teen brain and exploiting those.
- [54:28]
Matt Richtel
So in a way, talking about social media already feels on the verge of being outdated because of generative AI. Is there anything when you're thinking about AI going forward, especially when it comes to mental health and social media?
- [54:40]
Jack Thorne
Yeah. And I think that there's, again, a truth problem. I did a show about a care home during the pandemic, and there was a. A person that worked in the care home who got advice down the phone to prone a patient, which means turn them on their front to make the breathing easier, for which I could produce lots of anecdotal evidence, but no medical evidence. And so I had to demonstrate medical evidence before I could put it in the show. Whereas I talk to ChatGPT and ChatGPT will tell me as if it knows things that are wrong, wrong. So, yeah, I think truth is going to be one of the biggest problems with AI.
- [55:21]
Lauren Greenfield
I'm glad you brought up AI because what it's proof of most of all to me is the, the, the quote unquote progress or whatever you want to call it is not stopping. And so I think we need, we need a really fundamental approach. And I like Lauren's point that just because you have the device doesn't mean you have to take everything that's on it. But. And we need an approach that recognizes and teaches young people how to think about this environment that is not going to slow down. And to really put a fine point on AI in the grand scheme, it's probably going to take a lot of jobs, which is going to have a lot of even more direct impact on our young people's lives. We need a bigger framework than the one that says just take away the phone.
- [56:08]
Matt Richtel
So my last question. Each have done a lot of research and had conversation with kids and scientists and everything else. I'd love to know lastly, what each of you are most surprised by in doing this. What is the thing that you had a preconceived notion or something that you were like, ugh, I didn't realize that. Let's start with you, Lauren, then Matt, and then Jack.
- [56:30]
Kara Swisher
I was really surprised that kids didn't want it that, you know, if they could wave their wand and get rid of it, they would rather. And what really shocked me was at the end of the series in episode five when they said, said what if we could have a space like this outside of here and just talk to each other? And I was shocked that that seemed out of reach for teenagers. Just the idea of talking face to face.
- [56:58]
Matt Richtel
Matt.
- [56:59]
Lauren Greenfield
Yeah. The thing I'm most surprised by is I think we do have some answers and I think those go to learning how to live in a world that is extremely chaotic and emotionally provocative. What I get into at the end of the book is there's a whole bunch of things young people can do when they are overwh. And it leads up to things that not everybody can afford, like cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavioral therapy. But I would suggest that if we give kids coping tools, they're going to be able to deal a little more favorably with a world that is going to be unyielding, hostile and fast moving.
- [57:34]
Kara Swisher
I totally agree with Matt, but I also feel like we put so much responsibility on the kids. It's like blaming the opiate addict for the addiction.
- [57:43]
Matt Richtel
Exactly. That's what I was going to say.
- [57:45]
Lauren Greenfield
Hardly so sorry. I just want to make sure I'm clear. Far from blaming them, this is the world they've inherited, and we've got to give them some tools, tools that we need to internalize as parents as well. Because what you see happening in society is a lot of hostility, a lot of displacement, a lot of anger, and adults are mirroring that behavior.
- [58:06]
Jack Thorne
If it's a vulnerable kid with vulnerable parents who's going through a vulnerable education system, what you're talking about might be so far out of reach for them. Whereas at least denying technology for a little bit of time might make their lives a little bit more copable with for a little longer, so that when they then get the device, they can know how to cope with it.
- [58:28]
Lauren Greenfield
I don't disagree with that at all, Jack. I wholeheartedly agree, Matt.
- [58:32]
Matt Richtel
I'm gonna jump in. I think what they're saying to you is, you know, it's like being in a place where a toxic chemical company is spewing stuff and saying what you really need to do is learn how to. To use oxygen masks.
- [58:43]
Kara Swisher
A gas mask.
- [58:43]
Lauren Greenfield
Yeah, no, no. But. But look, I'm not. I. I agree. We kept our phones away from our kids for a while. I think we're at slightly different vantage points in this conversation. There's a time we need to keep these away, and then there's a time we need to learn collectively how to understand what they are and make our own decisions about keeping them at arm's length, because this world and the companies that seek our attention are not going to get any less easy to deal with.
- [59:11]
Kara Swisher
I feel like societally, we have to ask for more. It's like, you know, we've just. Now the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is shutting down. But, like, I was so moved by hearing in the Jim Henson film about when Sesame street was beginning. They brought together people who knew what kids loved with people who knew what kids needed. And I feel like the tech world doesn't have any. It's not guided by a kind of moral compass that's looking at what is good for kids. It's just, you know, what can we sell the most? And if the government won't step in, you know, we can demand that of brands who advertise.
- [59:49]
Matt Richtel
Yeah. All right, Jack.
- [59:50]
Jack Thorne
In terms of the research, what surprised me was how different the world was. I remember talking to a young girl. She was 14 or 15 years old, and she told me, I don't talk in class. And I haven't talked in class for two or three years. And I don't talk in class because there's a great. A group of boys who intimidate me. And in each class, she was in a variety of different classes. There was a different group of boys, and the gender division seemed much more stark than when I was at school. And what it meant to be a boy or to be a girl seemed so much more problematic. Which isn't to say that there wasn't huge problems when I was a kid and that I wasn't a total mess, just that something has been fed into this world which has created quite serious damage.
- [60:42]
Matt Richtel
Okay, well, we're going to end on that. Thank you all so much. What an interesting and substantive conversation. And, you know, more to come, obviously, as this goes on. But I think the power of the tech companies, we all need to understand they are running things in ways they probably shouldn't be going forward, but doesn't mean they won't. Anyway, thanks to all of you.
- [61:00]
Kara Swisher
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [61:06]
Matt Richtel
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor, Roselle, Katera Yokum, Megan Bernie, Lissa so Up, Allison Rogers and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Rosemarie Ho. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you know when to put down your phone. If not, put down your phone. Go wherever you listen to podcast, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.