Labor Day Special: Hacks On Tap

Summary

On with Kara Swisher: Labor Day Special – Hacks On Tap (September 1, 2025)

Overview

This special Labor Day episode features an episode swap: Kara Swisher introduces a recent "Hacks on Tap" conversation hosted by David Axelrod and John Heilemann, with guest Rahm Emanuel (former White House Chief of Staff, former Chicago mayor, and U.S. Ambassador to Japan). The discussion spans Trump’s threats to deploy the National Guard in Chicago, FBI raids on John Bolton, the collapse of Ukraine peace talks, and the high-stakes redistricting battles in Texas and California. The tone is sharp, insightful, and at times humorous, as the hosts dissect political theatre, policy, and implications for the Democratic Party.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump and the "National Guard in Chicago" Narrative

• Trump's Rhetoric vs. Reality

  • Trump called Chicago a "killing field," threatening to send in the National Guard. The hosts rebuff this as political theater, emphasizing the city's vitality.
    • David Axelrod: “...I am not into this false depiction of our city as a hellscape. I'm looking out the window at the lake in Grant park and people, you know, enjoying the love, the fine lines of summer...” (04:45)
  • Rahm Emanuel: “We have made progress... but we have persistent problems, like carjacking, like recruitment of officers... Dems should articulate: we're for more police and getting kids, guns, and gangs off the street.” (05:39)

• Trap for Democrats

  • Axelrod and Emanuel agree Trump uses crime and immigration as divisive "go to" issues, preferring to stir cultural conflict rather than propose actual solutions.

• Effectiveness of These Tactics

  • John Heilemann: “He's underwater on [crime and immigration] now... the extremeness... seems to provoke revulsion in the middle of the country.” (08:07)
  • Discussion of how these strategies failed in 2018 and may backfire by making Trump the "focal point of disorder."

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2. Public Safety, Visual Politics, and Chicago

• Pritzker’s Response

  • Illinois Governor JB Pritzker’s visual show of unity (Riverwalk appearance with city/state leaders) is lauded.
    • Rahm Emanuel: “The picture is the story.” (11:18)
  • Real solutions cited: violence intervention, afterschool programs, improved technology, and police recruitment—not performative troop deployments.

• Limits of Federal Involvement

  • National Guard interventions are criticized as temporary, performative, and not an actual solution to urban violence.
    • Rahm Emanuel: “That's not a permanent, sustained effort. Invest in... after school programs so kids aren't on the street now that school's back.” (12:03)

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3. Crime Policy as Immigration Policy

• The hosts agree that Trump's crime policies in cities like Washington DC are “an immigration deportation policy masquerading as a crime policy.” (14:23)
  • Targeting cities allows ICE quotas to be met, not actually addressing urban crime.

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4. Sliding Toward Autocracy and the Use of Federal Power

• Militarization and "Fascism" Concerns

  • Discussion of Trump’s executive order for a “standing SWAT team of National Guardsmen” and the mass deployment of federal agents.
    • David Axelrod: “...These are elements of fascism, these are elements of autocracy.” (18:38)

• Political Motives

  • All panelists see a pattern of Trump centralizing power, politicizing law enforcement, and using division as a tool.
  • Rahm Emanuel: “The common theme... is division in America, pitting one American against another.” (19:27)

• Historical Parallels and Urgency

  • Comparing current maneuvers to political tactics of foreign autocrats; questioning the silent complicity of business and GOP leaders.

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5. Redistricting, Election Integrity, and Democratic Strategy

• Redistricting Battles

  • Republicans’ aggressive tactics (challenging census, attacking mail-in ballots, mid-decade redistricting) are contextualized as efforts to suppress accountability.
    • John Heilemann: “Stop the [vote] steal 2026. With all of this armed militarized stuff... it’s very, very dark.” (26:17)

• Democratic Response

  • Debate over how much Democrats should risk extraordinary measures (like California’s mid-decade gerrymander) to counter GOP maneuvers.
    • David Axelrod: “It’s bullshit for anyone to say... it's out of order and we shouldn't do that. What Newsom is doing is the right thing.” (44:15)

• Potential Consequences

  • Rahm: “If [Newsom] did nothing, he'd get killed. These are the choices you have to make.” (46:21)

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6. Mailbag – Listener Questions (58:00–65:10)

• Q1: Are Democrats too slow to fight back against "crazy" GOP tactics?
  • Axelrod: Democrats must focus on real issues (cost of living, jobs) while fighting autocracy—must do both at once.
• Q2: Are Republicans overplaying their hand with redistricting—and could they lose "safe" seats in a wave election?
  • Heilemann cites Dave Wasserman: If the national mood turns, "safe" GOP seats can fall if too aggressively drawn.
  • Axelrod: You move voters to shore up some districts but can make others vulnerable in a Democratic wave.
• Q3: Best political advice received?
  • Axelrod: "Washington’s always the last to get the news." & "The higher a monkey climbs on a pole, the more you can see his ass."
  • Heilemann (from his mother): "Don't get arrested and don't get dead."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chicago's Realities vs. Trump’s Rhetoric
  • Axelrod: “I am not into this false depiction of our city as a hellscape...” (04:45)
• On Trump's Divisiveness
  • Rahm Emanuel: “President Trump never misses an opportunity to divide Americans rather than try to figure out how to make progress on solving some real problems we have.” (05:39)
• On Politicized Crime Policy
  • Heilemann: “This is an immigration deportation policy masquerading as a crime policy.” (14:23)
• On Sliding to Autocracy
  • Axelrod: “These are elements of fascism, these are elements of autocracy. And you slide into these things. You don't just arrive there...” (18:38)
• On Democrats’ Struggle
  • Rahm Emanuel: “I am shocked at the silence and complicitness... literally make the three monkeys look like an active group. I mean they see no evil, hear no evil.” (27:44)
• On Redistricting Risks
  • Axelrod: “If you play by one set of rules and Trump plays by another, that gives him an enormous advantage.” (44:30)
• On Political Longevity
  • Axelrod: “The higher a monkey climbs on a pole, the more you can see his ass.” (66:48)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00 – 03:00: Introduction; Trump’s “killing field” rhetoric; setup of the Chicago debate.
• 05:39 – 09:00: Rahm Emanuel’s take on crime in Chicago, policy solutions, and Trump’s “trap.”
• 11:18 – 12:34: Pritzker’s Riverwalk strategy, substance vs. optics in crime response.
• 13:25 – 17:12: Immigration policy masked as crime policy; tensions in Washington DC.
• 18:00 – 22:20: Rise of militarization; slide towards “autocracy”; deeper implications.
• 26:17 – 34:17: Redistricting struggles, GOP suppression tactics, and Democratic counter-moves.
• 43:08 – 46:21: Debate on whether Newsom’s gerrymandering move could cost him in 2028.
• 49:04 – 52:27: Predictions on net House seats after redistricting and risk of GOP overreach.
• 58:00 – 65:10: Listener Mailbag (fighting GOP "crazy," redistricting risks, best political advice).

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, informed, and peppered with dry humor and political realism. The hosts blend analysis, political history, and occasional anecdotes, creating a rich context for understanding current events and their broader implications.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a sophisticated, insider’s analysis of the political battles shaping pre-2026 America: Trump’s use of crime for division, militarized federal actions, and high-stakes redistricting. It’s essential listening for anyone tracking American democracy, urban policy, and political power plays.

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For first-time listeners:
Expect punchy exchanges, a deeply informed perspective on the mechanics of American politics, and a focus on what matters for both Democrats and the country at large.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. Happy Labor Day. Today we're bringing you a special episode from our friends at Hacks on Tap. This episode is hosted by David Axelrod and John Heileman and they're joined by Rahm Emanuel, the former White House Chief of Staff, Chicago Mayor and Ambassador to Japan. I've had Ram on a couple of times and he always has great insights on on this episode, he's discussing President Trump's threats to deploy the National Guard in Rahm's hometown of Chicago, the FBI's investigation into former National Security Advisor John Bolton, the collapse of the Ukraine peace talks, and the high stakes redistricting battles in Texas and California. It's an insightful conversation with three smart guys, so have a listen. I'll be back in your feed on Thursday with a fresh new episode of On.

[Rahm Emanuel]

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[David Axelrod]

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[Rahm Emanuel]

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[John Heilemann]

This month on Explain It To Me.

[David Axelrod]

We'Re talking about all things wellness.

[Kara Swisher]

We spend nearly $2 trillion on things.

[John Heilemann]

That are supposed to make us well.

[David Axelrod]

Collagen, smoothies and cold plunges, Pilates classes and fitness trackers.

[Kara Swisher]

But what does it actually mean to be well?

[David Axelrod]

Why do we want that so badly? And is all this money really making.

[John Heilemann]

Us healthier and happier? That's this month on Explain It To.

[David Axelrod]

Me presented by Pure leaf.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Hey, up a chair. Attacks on tap with David Axelrod and Mike Murphy.

[Donald Trump]

As you all know, Chicago is a killing field right now. And they don't acknowledge it. And they say we don't need him. Freedom. Freedom. He's a dictator. He's a dictator. A lot of people are saying, maybe we like a dictator.

[David Axelrod]

So John Heilman, I'm on the record right now saying I really don't want a dictator. I'm not into the dictator thing, and I'm really not into. As a Chicagoan, I am not into this false depiction of our city as a hellscape. I'm looking out the window at the lake in Grant park and people, you know, enjoying the love, the fine lines of summer. And one of the guys who helped make Chicago great is sitting right here. Rahm Emanuel, the former mayor, collector of fancy titles, former White House chief of staff, former former congressman, former ambassador, chairman of the dccc, former ambassador to Japan. Okay, thanks for joining us today. That's all we have time for. Rahm's titles.

[Rahm Emanuel]

A couple. You missed two titles.

[David Axelrod]

What's that?

[John Heilemann]

Oh, God. Go ahead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm a senior advisor to President Clinton and father of three.

[David Axelrod]

Okay, all right, good. Great. We got them all now.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Best to last.

[David Axelrod]

The best is last.

[John Heilemann]

Somehow the Ari didn't get mentioned anywhere in there. You think like, Ari should get, like, brother of Ari should be, like, in the list somewhere.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, don't insult Zeke that way.

[John Heilemann]

Oh, okay, sorry. Brother of Zeke the third Emanuel brother. So when you guys look out the window, you're both in Chicago. Do you see scenes of, like, Nom pen in, like, 1974, Sydney Schanberg kind of Killing Field style, or is it little different what you say, so you.

[David Axelrod]

Know what I mean? I have to say this has been a great summer, and these last few weeks have been great. And you walk along the riverwalk that rom had a lot to do with no mass graves. And no, there's a lot of. A lot of people enjoying the day and drinking beer. I will say that. But.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But at 9am, the breakfast of champions.

[David Axelrod]

This is a great. This is a great and vibrant city, and it's still a wonderful tourist destination and so on. But Rahm, one of the things that, you know, just since we are hacks on tap, one of the things that, you know, I think is a trap that one has to avoid. We do have violence problems. We do have crime problems, just like every city. Some of them are peculiar to ours. You had to deal with it as mayor. I mean, there is an Element of Trump sort of baiting a trap here, isn't there?

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's why, I mean, I 100% agree. And rather than have this legal brief prepared, you should brief as it relates to the National Guard and go to court. But on the facts, you should say, look, we have, we have made progress, but we have some persistent problems, like carjacking, like recruitment of officers, somebody that actually worked for President Clinton and put 100,000 community police officers down the street. You want to permanently start recruiting officers. That's a permanent problem, not a performative problem. For performative act on the National Guard. That will be for a week. You want to get these license plate readers so you can actually crack down on carjacking, be a partner. I mean, Democrats just articulate, we're for more police on the street and getting kids, guns and gangs off the street. Invest in those areas and we will sustain the momentum we have and really build on it. But, you know, I, rather than say no, look at the data, say yes, and here's how you can help. But the problem is like the redistricting. President Trump never misses an opportunity to divide Americans rather than try to figure out how to make progress on solving some real problems we have. And there's public safety issues in the sense of, as you know, it's a mindset, a psychology. And rather than deal with it, he's, and in a permanent way and being a way to figure it out, he's actually figured a way to divide Americans and not really solve them.

[David Axelrod]

Well, it works for him, John. It works this crime. Crime and immigration are touchstones for him. They're his go to play, especially when things aren't going well on other stuff. He happily goes back there and he's got generalismo, generalismo. Stephen Miller on point. And this, this shit has worked for.

[John Heilemann]

Well, yes and no. And here's, and here's what I mean.

[David Axelrod]

If you take them one at a.

[John Heilemann]

Time, if you look at, if you look at Trump's numbers on these issues, he's basically been on a whole bunch of things. He's been underwater on the economy, on inflation, on the whole, and on crime for months. He was not underwater on immigration until mid June. What happened in mid June was he did the LA raid and you started seeing people getting plucked out of Home Depot parking lots and the most egregious ICE things started happening.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right?

[John Heilemann]

So he now underwater on all those issues. It is true that he's still in a better position on crime and immigration than he is on the economy, but he's underwater on everything now. And the extremeness, some of the extremity of what people are seeing seems to be provoking some revulsion in the middle of the country. Rom, I'm sorry, I just want to finish the point, which is, I don't think it's, it's not working. Like, it's not like, this is now his. Well, everything else is going wrong, but this is, this is really working for him.

[David Axelrod]

I guess I should have said this is his comfort zone. This is his go to.

[John Heilemann]

That's. That's fair.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know, this reminds me. Replay the tape. In 2018, the Republicans in the House are saying, go to the economy. And he went to immigration, went to all the cultural issues, and they end up the midterm was obviously the caravans.

[John Heilemann]

Closed on the caravans in 18. It didn't work for him.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Two points. One is what he, you know, I saw this thing. I don't know why, but Bloomberg put it out, but it was hamburger. Ground beef today is the most expensive it's ever been in the history of the United States. Six bucks and 12 cents a pound. He does not want to talk about this. He, he, because there's a focus on the fact that he. I'll solve inflation in a day. Like, I'll solve Ukraine in a day. Realizes he's a failure. The second thing to your point, on both on immigration and this issue, the border was a local point of chaos.

[John Heilemann]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Trump's raids, et cetera, in Los Angeles, he became the focal point of disorder. People do not like disorder. And that's why the immigration. And also, and I think on this National Guard, these issues will not turn out to be the political cash cow that he thinks they are because he's making himself the focal point of the disorder. And people do not like that dissonance and disorder.

[David Axelrod]

Interestingly, yesterday he seemed to sort of backtrack and say, well, I'll send him if. Yeah, I'll send them. I don't have the clip. But he said, I'll, you know, I want to be asked. I want Pritzker to ask me to send them. And which, which was, well, here's his answer. Here's, here's the answ.

[John Heilemann]

Earlier today in the Oval Office, Donald.

[Donald Trump]

Trump looked at the assembled cameras and asked for me personally to say, Mr. President, can you do us the honor of protecting our city? Instead, I say, Mr. President, do not come to Chicago.

[David Axelrod]

So he had a lengthy response to Trump yesterday. And Rahm, I know you guys are friends. You're also potential future rivals. Because you're both mentioned as potential candidates for president. But I thought he handled Yesterday really well, 100%. I thought he looked good.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, I will if I can. Just out of my pride is. No, I'm glad he took everybody to the Riverwalk.

[David Axelrod]

I know, I know. I know where you were going. No, and it was great. And he came in by the water taxi.

[John Heilemann]

Yeah, the water taxi. I heard that.

[David Axelrod]

Great town, folks. If you're listening, visit Chicago, especially this time of year. It's just a wonderful place to be, I think, actually.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And I compliment JB As a craftsman of politics, which is the visual tells. It's not the data about here's how much homicide's down, et cetera. Come if there's a problem. You got to inform the people on the Riverwalk. You got to inform all the people that are enjoying looking at the architectural tour of the city. The picture is the story.

[David Axelrod]

He also, he also had the entire leadership of the city, political leadership of the city and state behind him. And he, and I think that he made the points that we made earlier about, yes, we have a problem and there are ways that you can help, but not cutting every single program that has actually been effective in beginning to reduce crime in the city.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right. I mean, this is somebody that worked hard and as mayor increased our police force by over a thousand folks. Every city is facing a challenge on recruitment help there, put resources towards recruiting office. Even if you and I don't think he'll send the National Guard of Chicago, they come and go like in D.C. they're going to just flip in and out. That's not a permanent, sustained effort. Invest in license plate readers so you can deal with carjacking. Invest in after school programs so kids aren't on the street now that school's back.

[David Axelrod]

And violence intervention programs, which actually are very, very effective. But just, you know, Arne Duncan, the former education secretary. John had a great piece in the Times yesterday about his own program which he heroically runs to try and interdict violence and recruit people who were once gang members to help to help before these things erupt and they've had a palpable effect. And there are other great programs in the city that do that, all of which are being defunded. So there are things that Trump could do that don't have political currency for him, as he thinks sending troops does. How do you guys think the Washington thing is working for him?

[John Heilemann]

Well, look, look, I believe that this, this conversation has been totally devoid and devoid of, and disconnected from any substance, any policy Discussion that has anything to do with crime. I believe one of the people on this, on this show right now, our discussion or no, the discussion, the public.

[David Axelrod]

Discussion, I thought early in the show for you to start, you know, critiquing us. Rahm is very sensitive. You're citing very sensitive.

[John Heilemann]

You're citing Arne Duncan. And I'm like, yeah, sure, there's like, there's all kinds of great policy ideas, some, most of them, but inadequately funded in a lot of big cities around the country that could help with the issues at the core of the crime issues and the urban disorder issues that do exist in a lot of these places. But I heard Rahm, I think over the weekend saying this is obviously not a, these are not crime. The policies in New York, in New York and Washington and putatively in Chicago and Baltimore, these are mostly about Trump trying to pursue the immigration agenda to.

[David Axelrod]

Be able to get, yes, to be.

[John Heilemann]

Able to get ICE agents on the street quota number so they can hit their quota number. So this is really, this is an immigration deportation policy masquerading as a crime policy, partly because of what we were talking about before, which is that people are very uncomfortable politically out in the country with the way that Trump's been going after trying to make those numbers. Again. We go back to Home Depot when you got Joe Rogan against you, you got a problem if you're Donald Trump on immigration. So what do you do? You call it a crime policy thing. But you look at what's happening in Washington, David, to your question, that shows this. They're not, there's no, the people are taking into, into federal magistrate court on open container violations. They're walking in front of federal judges with people they've arrested for, for open.

[David Axelrod]

Can of swarms of federal agents arresting people with bonkers.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Here's, here's, look, I mean it really, you got to have a strategy of, as I said, putting more cops on the beat and getting kids guns and gangs off the street. They got to go back to prosecuting gun crimes, prosecuting gang members give kids these after school mentoring programs that have worked. We have a great program that Maggie Daly started called After School Matters. We plussed it up. Under my tenure, about 100,000 kids a day after the bell goes off at school have athletic, academic, artistic activity. They work and then police officers, well trained, sustain that reduction. Any one of those the president could pick and you'd be solving that. These, he's trying to get the goods through customs here, which is, this is an immigration policy. A distraction from the price of groceries and gas at the store and all the other domestic issues. And he gets to add a kicker. It's wrapped in a package of division, which he loves.

[David Axelrod]

Just I want to say once again, cuz I thought Maureen Dowd had a really good column on Sunday about this. There is crime. And I was on the El rom a couple of weeks ago and some guy was blasting his music really loud. And coming back, I was coming down.

[Rahm Emanuel]

From the air being our subway system.

[David Axelrod]

There was a guy who got off the train on one of the stops before I got off and he said something to the guy on the way out and the guy flew out of his seat and dragged the guy back in the train and it starts wailing on him and the guy starts wailing back. That, that, that's everybody on that train was discomforted by what they saw. And there's, that kind of stuff is real. Is real. We should, but let's also be real about what it takes to, to deal with it. And the fact that we haven't mentioned yet, like some of the worst cities in the country relative to crime are in red states. And no one is saying let's send the National Guard there.

[John Heilemann]

Right? In fact, the opposite, David. In fact, what's happening in Washington is that those red states are send guard to the Capitol to be part of Trump's force. I, I just before we talk, I want to actually, I want to ask you guys about the politics of this relative to Newsom Pritzker and now Wes Moore, who's been, who's now kind of emerging on this front. But before we do that, just going back to the very first clip that we played, which is Trump saying some people say might want a dictator. He goes on to say in that clip, well, I'm not a dictator. I don't think I'm a big dictator. I think I'm a guy with common sense. I think I would like to hear both of you answer the question of what you think this is all really about. Because I think all these discussions about what crime policies would be best in these cities and states are totally beside the point of what they are.

[David Axelrod]

You know, you're right, you're right.

[John Heilemann]

So the question is it goes to dictator. And again, without being hyperbolic about it, the Capitol now has 2,000 armed federal agents on the street in the Capital of Washington, D.C. carrying, carrying rifles and other arms. Okay. They're being brought in from state, from red states around the country. I am, if you saw this in another country, you know exactly what you were what? Well, at the same time, he's firing a lot of people who lead law enforcement and deprofessionalizing federal law enforcement. So what is this really about?

[David Axelrod]

He also signed an executive order yesterday directing the Secretary of Defense to develop a standing sort of SWAT team of National Guardsmen to deal with what he called civil disorder in the country. Look, you have to be sort of willfully ignorant to look at that and not say that these are elements of fascism, these are elements of autocracy. And you slide into these things. You don't just arrived there and Rob, we've gone. I've said this to you. We talk from time to time. I said we have gone from zero to Hungary faster than I ever imagined.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We are a hungry.

[David Axelrod]

Yes, exactly.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can I make two points, though? Is one, we're talking about, obviously, the National Guard on the heels of what just happened in Texas and redistricting. The common theme between both of those events is division in America, putting. Pitting one American against another. Rather than figuring out how to solve our problems, we'll have a debate about them. You say that. I actually think you're wrong on this, John, if I can. I actually think American people are hungry for a debate about how do you actually solve public safety. That put that aside.

[John Heilemann]

I don't disagree with you about that, Rob. I think they're hungry for that debate. But I.

[David Axelrod]

Straw man. Straw man alert. Go ahead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. Common theme is division and divisiveness. Just like what he's doing on the Federal Reserve number two. I actually think there's a thread here. His big military parade for his birthday was a bust. And he wants. He's going back to that first term when he swatted, he saw Bastille day in France, etc. He loves kind of the imagery and the performative of the military. It is in service of what David said. And I think this National Guard, again, is both. It's not serving one thing, it's both. The divisiveness of America keeps us distracted from dealing with real issues. And then second, it allows him to have the performative around kind of the military and him as the kind of the groom on the wedding cake of that military embellishment and the authority, all.

[David Axelrod]

Of that is true, Rahm. But when you put it together with everything else, when you put it together with everything else, when you put it together with FBI agents showing up at John Bolton's house, when you put it together with him, as you point out, sort of completely firing career military people, firing professional law enforcement people, and substituting political hacks for them. When you see what happened at the Federal Reserve where Trump had, you know, a hack who he, who he appointed to a key position in the Federal Housing Administration, rifling through the files of his political enemies and making allegations that then get shipped to his Justice Department that is completely politicized now. And at his he said yesterday I'm the chief law enforcement officer of the country. He's telling the Justice Department what to do. These are not benign ceremonial thing.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I agree.

[John Heilemann]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm about to disagree.

[John Heilemann]

And just, and just, and just to go back rom I'll say just David said strawman alert.

[David Axelrod]

Hit him again.

[John Heilemann]

Country. I think the country is hungry for a debate on crime. I don't think they're, that they're getting, I don't think that's what Trump is giving them is doing them.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay.

[David Axelrod]

Now he, what he's setting up is a faux debate on debate.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I said no. In fact, they do want to debate.

[John Heilemann]

They do want to debate. They do want to debate a real debate.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They know we're not focused on. We got real challenges, real problems and we're doing everything but dealing with them.

[David Axelrod]

Okay, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor and we'll be right back.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Rahm Emanuel]

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[John Heilemann]

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[David Axelrod]

He said it a million times here. He does not believe in rules and laws and norms and institutions. He thinks they're for suckers. The strong take what they want however they can get it and he will do anything that he can do to try and keep the House of Representatives from becoming a Democratic House because then he'll have a source of accountability and a source of oversight and he knows what happened the last time and he's worried about all of that, but just the basic oversight and accountability that the Republican Congress has surrendered. He will do anything to stop that from happening. But you know, a lot of this you can't do a lot of things he's talking John, about doing by executive order. But what he is doing is sending a signal to all of these Republican governors about what he wants done. It'll be interesting to see Rahm, how they handle, you know, mail in voting, how they handle how they handle voting machines.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I mean, look, I said this to these prominent businessman. I said I don't understand you guys. I don't understand the Republicans in the House of Senate. I don't understand the Republican governors. Literally we got screamed at and yelled at for being called socialists to God forbid to give people health care security. And you have a guy firing the dealing with the independence of the Federal Reserve, calling the National Guards into cities that you can't don't have the authority to talking about whether it's the census or other type of areas in the bail and voting, everything literally that direct and as you said, kind of like a mosaic come together. And he said it out loud. I'm not a dictator, which is what he wants you to think he is because. But the fact is I am shocked at the silence and complicitness of a bunch of voices in not only the business community Republican Party who are literally make the three monkeys look like an active group. I mean they see no evil, hear no evil.

[David Axelrod]

Speaker, you left out what is a more most recent and egregious thing that you would think would have them howling and that is that he basically coerced intel into giving the government 10% partial nationalism. When we ram. You remember when we stepped in when we were working for Obama, he stepped in and in order to save the American auto industry and to save Chrysler and gm, he took a temporary stake in those companies and made money, made a profit.

[John Heilemann]

He's taking a. He's partially nationalizing the American microprocessor industry and telling Coca Cola what kind of sugar to put in its formula. It's nuts.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They had pictures of Obama with Hitler's mustache and being called also on the other side of the political a socialist for health care for Americans. This guy's. It's. I've never seen anything. And they're all silent.

[David Axelrod]

Here's what Mitch McConnell said. I don't have the. I could find the audio, but this is what he said about the auto bailout. A government big enough to give us everything we want is a government big enough to take everything we have. And the Republicans were at one in branding it as socialism. They stopped branding it that way when those companies were SA and started flourishing and we got out of it. But, but it. Because it was a very successful intervention. But this. Now Trump's talking about taking over pieces of defense industry.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right?

[David Axelrod]

I mean, this is really profound. And you don't hear crickets.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's my point is like literally all these voices that, whether it was also on the housing stuff we did or the stabilization or as you said, the auto industry people were screaming about socialism, etc. From Nippon Steel to taking a fee for Nvidia to give China leverage over the United states to taking 10% of intel, these are, this is mimicking Xi sitting there smiling, saying, I never knew I had a compatriot. And it's kind of this economic model that I built up here in China. And we've replaced, at least I believe, in Adam Smith's invisible hand. Who knew we were going to replace it with Donald Trump's judgment.

[David Axelrod]

No, we're replacing it with, we're replacing with Donald Trump's visible hand right in their pockets.

[John Heilemann]

His visible, very swollen, puffy hand. We'll get to that. We'll get to that later. Yes. Can we, I want to come back to the politics here because we are one. Let's be hackish here, okay? Because we haven't done that yet. JB Pritzker yesterday said to the press, you guys, don't cover this as a horse race thing. Don't talk about who's up, who's down. Don't talk about politics. Just focus on the substance of this. And I say thank you for, for your, for your concern. Discover Pritzker. But we're going to focus on the politics right now, especially here. Yeah, right, exactly. So I mentioned Wes Moore before, right? So so far we've seen Gavin Newsom move from the hey, let's have Steve Ben on my podcast mode to you know, trolling Trump on Twitter, being full on in the fight, fight, fight, you know, fire with fire camp. JB has been in that camp all along when he was, I think, the earliest major player in the party to compare the Trump second term administration to the Nazis back in like February in New Hampshire. Now, as Trump considers going into Maryland, into Baltimore, we have another 2028 contender, Wes Moore, who's had A slightly different approach to this. We have a little sound. Let's play that. As someone who actually deployed overseas and.

[David Axelrod]

Served my country in combat, to ask these men and women to do a job that they're not trained for is just deeply disrespectful.

[John Heilemann]

So that was part of what he said. The other thing he did was he invited Trump to do a ride along with him to sort of say, hey, you think there's bad crime in Baltimore, Things are better here than you think they that you are President Trump. Why don't you come up here and, and take a safety tour with me. I wonder, Rahm, what you think about that as a tactic and what you think about how all of this, the ways in which the governors in particular are being put in a position to respond to Trump and how I said, I said, I said Gavin at the very top, I said, he's, you know, after Los Angeles, then he's now in the redistrict thing. Full, full in. There's a question about whether if that thing fails, that ballot initiative fails in November, whether that capsizes them. But what do you think about all that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think for each of them, given as an observation and also discuss this. My, my view is rather than say, we don't have a crime problem, say, come and partner with us in building on the momentum we have and Baltimore. But that's tactically, I think.

[David Axelrod]

Just put your hack hat on, will you?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I am. I think Governor Westmore went to his. Each of them are going to their strengths and what they think. And so my hack hat says that each of them are in their lane and where their comfort zone is. I happen to think Wes Moore operated where he has the strongest suit that nobody else could go. I think confronting, as Governor Newsom has done on the redistricting, Texas works to his kind of advantage. So I think each is playing to their A game and correctly playing to their A game, which builds their kind of profile.

[David Axelrod]

So I have been critical of Pritzker, not critical. I've suggested. I thought it was a bad idea for him to run for a third term in 2026 because you have to deal with all the burdens of the governorship. He'd be free to travel the country. He has lots of money to do it. But this underscores something. The reason that this plays well with large segments of Democratic voters, I suspect, is because right now they feel helpless and they look at their leaders and they think they're feckless and unable to do anything. And these guys have each been Handed an opportunity. I mean, Newsom is doing something, you know, Pritzker is confronting him directly and, you know, Wes Moore suggesting the same. And so it does give you a chance to play off Trump and that in a way that the people in Congress can't because they have no control.

[Rahm Emanuel]

As much as I think this is an attempt to a. What's going on is an attempt to try to really get the goods through custom. On immigration, it allows Trump to avoid dealing with the inflation, out of control, economic anxiety. All these governors also have bad choices in their own budget. And so fighting Trump also allows them to kind of push some of the other issues into the background for themselves. So it also, in a, you know, here in Chicago, here in Illinois, we have a big transportation budget shortfall that allows that to kind of recede as part of the news and this become more dominant. So there's also an added benefit for, you know, they have all three bad choices in their budgets and other things that they have to confront those go kind of and recede to the background. This becomes part of the foreground.

[David Axelrod]

It raises the question about, you know, we, we jumped ahead here, but why the business community is quiet, why the Republicans are quiet. And the answer is fear. The answer is fear. And that's where the Bolton raid, I mean, I don't know what's going to happen with John Bolton. This was looked at once. They stopped it, you know, and. But listen to what Trump said about the Bolton raid.

[John Heilemann]

Are more raids like the one on.

[David Axelrod]

John Bolton's house coming?

[Donald Trump]

More raids? I don't know. You'd have to ask the Department of Justice. They raided my house. I can tell you that. They did a big raid on my house. They took away everything that wasn't pinned down. And they took away some of that, too. No, they raided Mar A Lago. They started that. These were bad people that we had in our government before they raided Mar?

[Rahm Emanuel]

A Lago.

[Donald Trump]

They went into my wife's area, they went into my son's area, my young son. And what they did was a disgrace.

[David Axelrod]

I love it when he says, well, that's up to the Department of Justice. And in like, in the same period of time he's talking about, I'm the chief law enforcement officer. So he thinks the Department of Justice is running errands for him. You know, the other guy he targeted and just a. And then I'll turn it over to you guys. But was Chris Christie, who you ram are very friendly with. I'm friendly with him as well. You were on ABC with Him for a period of time before you went off to serve in Japan, or was it after? It was before. Before it was before. Now he's now Trump. Now they're, well, listen, what Trump has to say about Chris Christie and Bridgegate, remember Bridge gate.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You plan to investigate Chris Christie?

[Donald Trump]

Say it. What?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Do you plan to investigate Chris Christie?

[Donald Trump]

Look, Chris is a slob. Everybody knows it. I know Chris better than anybody in the room. I always felt he was guilty. But what he did is he took the George Washington Bridge, which is very serious. He closed down the George Washington Bridge Bridge. And you had medical people, you had ambulances caught up. You know, this thing was closed down and obviously he knew about it, but he blamed the young lady that worked for him and another person and they got into a lot of trouble. She ultimately was, I don't know, exonerated, but she got out of it a little bit. But she went through hell. She was a young mother, nice person. I knew her a little bit. And another man went through to jail and Chris got off. And so when I listen to Chris speak his hate, I say, oh, what about the George Washington Bridge? You know, tell me about the George Washington Bridge.

[David Axelrod]

Basically, there was an intimation that he's going to reopen that case. And the fundamental. John Bolton was with you a week ago, criticizing him on the, on the Putin stuff. The message is clear. The message is clear. We're going to use the Justice Department in anything. Yeah. All the tools.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, I do want to. I don't know, I'm about to say something I'm not sure about, but you had John Bolton write a book, how to get through clearances, a whole security apparatus, etc. That's years ago. Them going into his house and his office. You know, even paranoid people have enemies. Something tells me they've been tracking him in some way. Because this, there's actually. I mean, not that the other stuff isn't nerve wracking and nervous about the Federal Reserve person or, you know, the National Guard in Chicago, but how they decide they went to a judge with information to get the capacity to do what they just did. Radcliffe means that they were tracking something. And I say this because the ability to write a book that has national security implications has to go through a level. You're not just dealing with an editor. They are over that. All the supporting material, what did you have, et cetera. So that was cleared. So how they got to this one day, I want to find the answer.

[John Heilemann]

Rom. I believe John Ratcliffe has said that. I believe it's public that. Oh, not in detail, but that the CIA provided some intelligence to.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, but that means they're tracking it.

[John Heilemann]

I know. I'm reinforcing your point with a little, with a little bit of detail, which.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is a very troubling, ominous, scary. This is it's not just what they say on CNN and being critical. It's the other app or before they, what they how they gathered a material to go to the judge tells you that this gives Nixon's enemy list a kind of a vanilla or a whitewash painting. This is an incredible breach of not just norms, but American legal system.

[John Heilemann]

David, just given that that's the case, what Rahm said is correct, let me just again return to the hack point that we departed from for a second because, of course, these things all, again, fit into the mosaic. Both of your former colleague Dan Pfeiffer said to me the other day that he thinks that the key division or dividing line in the party heading into 2026 and 2028 is Democrats who understand the existential threat and are then willing to do things at scale to combating the existential threat that Trump and MAGA pose to American democracy. And those who are in denial about it, who are kind of basically, maybe they pay lip service to it, but essentially they are still operating as if we were in ordinary times under regular order. Do you think that's true? Is my question to both of you.

[David Axelrod]

I think that there has to be a real awareness of the stakes. But an awareness of the stakes means, yes, fighting off these incursions in the courts and wherever you can, but ultimately it means winning elections. You can't ultimately stop this without winning. And to win, you still need to be able to focus on those things that are going to move the people you need to move to win.

[John Heilemann]

Right.

[David Axelrod]

And so, you know, this is. I don't. I think that this is a deadly serious situation. I think Trump is a runaway freight train. But no, I think that it's still true that people are living their lives. And his failure on the fundamentals of the things that they had hoped he would do, particularly as it relates to the economy, is still probably more influential with people than some of this.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I agree with David on this one point. I was saying, and I think the point is what is going to matter going forward is whether you think the cost of ground beef being the most expensive I've ever been or the state of democracy. And I happen to think if you want to win elections and you want to talk to where people live their lives, it's what's affecting their lives. I'm not saying that democracy is not important. I'm just saying you have to win elections and the cost of living and the cost of housing is a more salient issue.

[John Heilemann]

I want to be clear about what I don't think Dan was saying. These people are going to foreground the democracy argument. I'll give you a tangible example of this is Newsom, right? A mid decade gerrymander. That's going to be a ballot initiative, a single ballot issue about the ballot in November when nothing else is on the ballot. Tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars are going to get spent on it is an extraordinary measure. That's like something Democrats normally wouldn't do. They have, you know, California, California has had, has had two separate votes on nonpartisan redistricting commissions. My question is that's a thing where it doesn't, it's not democracy on the ballot, of course.

[David Axelrod]

Well, I don't hear, I mean, I think it's bullshit to say, it's bullshit for anyone to say. Well, you know, we really, it's, it's out of order and we shouldn't do that. I think what Newsom is doing is the right thing to do.

[John Heilemann]

Right.

[David Axelrod]

And so I don't think that should even be up for debate. I, I, you know, I, I, there are people who are living in a different decade in a different country and you know, obviously if you play by one set of rules and Trump plays by another, that gives him an enormous advantage. Totally. So I, I, I mean, I agree. If that's the point Dan was making, I totally agree.

[John Heilemann]

I think the point is that is that Newsom is willing to do something that, with that is, that is take an extraordinary risk. And, and this is again, part of my question to both of you is do you think that that risk is basically whether he's a viable candidate in 2028 for president or not? Because a loss on this thing would be a pretty big deal. He's put a lot of chips on the table here pretty early, at least in my view. So do you guys think that if he, if he loses in November, he's toast for 28? No. When?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't think, I don't think people are going to vote in a primary based on whether he got redistricting done or not. We live in, Breathe this. That's not where the American, I think.

[David Axelrod]

Rahm, I, I think that the, the, the effort, I mean, I think there's a price and failure. I think the effort is worth something for him in terms of the platform that he's got. Well, what do you think, John? You're, you're, you're, you're an Angelino.

[John Heilemann]

I think that the amount of focus on this in the fall is going to be huge. And he has, he is not, it's not like a redistricting effort. This is like he's made this into a national issue. And as I said, it's going to be, it's going to be an incredibly hard fought, expensive race. I think it would be a big blow. I don't know if it would kill him, David. I don't know if It'll kill his 28, 28 prospects, but it will be a major hole in the hull of the ship of 2028.

[Rahm Emanuel]

John. Yeah, imagine if he didn't do it. That would be the blow. So I did not to me, look, I think is, I think he's doing exactly the right thing. I think Democrats should do deal stuff with ranked voting because I think it's going to redistricting, it's going to get us basically at best to a status quo. We got to keep pushing this because they're going to do stuff in 2028. They're going to do stuff in 2020, 30, 2030 rather. We have to be ready. That said, it's not whether this on its own is good or bad. If it did nothing, he'd get killed. So these are the choices you have to make.

[David Axelrod]

Plus, we still, we still haven't heard from Indiana, right? From Missouri, from Florida, the National Guards.

[John Heilemann]

We need to take a quick break right now, but we'll be right back with more of hacks on tap.

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[David Axelrod]

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[John Heilemann]

We have Florida. There's a bunch of states. Florida is definitely going to do redistricting. There's Indiana, there's some other Republican states. There's been discussion of Michigan, Maryland, Illinois where it'd be hard to Jerry that's not gonna happen. So what do you guys think? How do you think it nets out in the end once all the gerrymandering wars are done by the end of this year, who where do we net out? Do you ever have a sense of that? ROM FORMER DCCC Major demo I will.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I've talked to, I've talked to a number of leaders in the House in the last 48 hours and I said the pro you got a short term and long term, short term at best. If we take the states that we could do registry there's something interesting in Utah that just came from.

[David Axelrod]

Yeah, right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. But right.

[David Axelrod]

That could be a seed pickup.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right. But the fact is the Supreme Court is a horrible place on American politics and John Roberts will go down infamy for what he's done to our political system. That said, you have to start preparing for 2026, 2028 and 2030 and etc. Because they are going to keep doing stuff and to me, at best I'm redistricting. We get to kind of even or minus three from a kind of But I think this is going to be a big national election. That's going to be the verdict on Donald Trump and the Republicans. That said the best way to deal with opening up more seats than making more competitive get rid of primaries and go towards ranked voting. That gives you a lot of other seats because there's because when I was DCCC chair now a little over 20 years ago, around 20 years ago, we had like 40 plus seats. You're down to less than 20 from a competitive standpoint. We have to change this map and stop playing on their field and make them play on our field. That's what I would do.

[David Axelrod]

Just here's a shorter answer. I think that if they do all those states that they probably have. They'll pick, they'll make gains. And Democrats are going to have to win more seats than certainly the three that it looked like they'd have to win at the beginning of this process. And I'm not sure. The one thing I'm not sure about you guys is just how whether the Republican gerrymanders will net all the seats that they think. And I think I talked about this last week when we had Brownstein on, like these Hispanic voters in South Texas, yes. Are very sensitive to the economic issues. That's a lot of what led them. There were some cultural things, but that. And the border. And so there. But the border was the issue. And now Hispanics generally are being targeted by, you know, so I think that it's not to be the slam dunk that they thought it was going to be.

[John Heilemann]

So, for whatever it's worth, Dave Wasserman did a Q and A with Puck that where he says he thinks that if California succeeds, if Newsom succeeds, Republicans probably net 5 or 6, and if California fails, Republicans at 10 or 12, and he still thinks that it's possible Democrats win the House because of the overall national trends. But that's, that's kind of range that Dave Wasserman's laying out.

[David Axelrod]

Yes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[David Axelrod]

Well, I agree with him.

[Rahm Emanuel]

If you look at midterms, when one party controls both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, you have to have an energized opposition that is existing. We can see it in all the specials and in the primaries. You have to have independence break 2 to 1 for the opposition. You're seeing that happening in the specials. And you have to have a depressed turnout among Republicans. And you can see in the polling, Republicans are not engaged like the level of Democrats. So this has the makings 18 months out of a wave election. And I believe in a wave election, even if they're trying to rig the jury, it will overwhelm the wall that they're building up. It will not handle the wave. It's about the tsunami that's about to come and it has a potential to be a tsunami.

[David Axelrod]

Before we go to the mailbag, John, you had one thing you wanted to talk about with Rahm.

[John Heilemann]

I do. I don't want Rob to leave without getting a chance to talk about Donald Trump's. Well, the state of Donald Trump's apparent physical decline. And if you say it's that this is a partisan comment, I'm not being partisan at all. It's like we've noticed the hands, we've noticed the feet. And so with Alex Jones Alex Jones, not a, not a liberal last time I checked. Here's Alex Jones had to say about Trump's impending health collapse. I've seen a lot of signs of Trump declining the fear that he's getting sick, that who knows what's going on. His ankles are giant. That usually means serious heart decline. I mean liver failure too. But his eyes aren't yellow. So he's saying I don't know if I'm doing a good job. I don't know if I'm gonna get into heaven. I hear I'm not doing a good job. This is the president United States calling into Fox News in the morning saying this. The inner monologue tells a lot.

[David Axelrod]

Dr. Jones weighs in.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I would not say that he's covered that Alex has the medical capacity beyond the Obama exchange. That said, or be my cardiologist. Yeah but the fact, the most revealing thing isn't the hands or the ankles and they can't tie the shoes. That comment about I'm, you know, I want to go to heaven and I'm, I don't think I'm in good standing get there. If I were Donald Trump, not that he's going to listen to my political advice, I'd be worried about Dante's and Inferno at this point. I think it's a very revealing point, kind of introspective and he's not known for being introspective where his mind is about his own mortality and his place. It's also part of his desire for the Nobel Peace Prize, et cetera. But this thing that I want to go to heaven I think really was the one time you've seen a mirror and I wouldn't say self awareness but a reflection into his psyche and his mindset and it's not healthy both physically and psychologically.

[David Axelrod]

Alex Jones raised it, you raised it. And I don't want in any way for people to say oh this is what they're fomenting these but you look at the guy, he just doesn't look well and he's, you know, people think he's somehow immune to the same laws of nature that govern Joe Biden. He's an almost 80 year old guy and this is the hardest job on the planet. And you know, the way he does it, you know, work by day, post on truth social all night. You can, the pressures of it are. And no one who has never worked there can't fully appreciate what it is. So Rahm, you know. Yeah, I mean I think it's a non trivial question.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I used to refer to we all seen presidents, but from the first photo to the last photo and they walk out. It ages you. Every year in the White House is a dog year. It's like seven years, etc. He's an old man to start with, who doesn't take care of himself. And you're seeing the. The physical manifestations of that age and wear and tear. I think we've now seen the psychological manifestation of that physical state of being.

[John Heilemann]

I genuinely hate it when we hear. I know we all hear this occasionally. Over the last 10 years, you've heard liberals say, God, I hope Trump dies. And I hate. I hate it when I hear people say that. I hate it. I hate it. But it is the case that if you live a life where you don't exercise, you don't eat green vegetables, and you eat Burger King and Big Macs for. For 70 years, it's going to take a toll at some point. And I think that might be.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think he's past the Mediterranean diet. Okay.

[David Axelrod]

I must say, I do envy the ability to eat Big Macs every day. I gave them up decades ago.

[John Heilemann]

And you're a better man for it.

[David Axelrod]

Well, I'm a lesser man. I'm a lesser man for it. Before you go, Rom, we want to give you a question from the mailbag. It's Listener mailbag. So if you have questions for the hacks, you could send them to hacksontapmail.com or you can, and we provide, prefer this, call them in yourself so we can hear your voices at this number, 773-389-4471. I'll repeat it because who can remember that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

773-389-4471.

[John Heilemann]

Hey, David, I think it looks like Rahm has to run, so he's going to have to skip the mailbag.

[David Axelrod]

You offended him. He's running. I can't believe it. What a mess. But see her arm?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, see.

[John Heilemann]

See you later on.

[Rahm Emanuel]

All right, bye, man.

[John Heilemann]

So, David, we got two voicemails. You know, I like the voicemails. I mean, yeah, man, we take our. We take the incoming however it comes. And if you don't want to call, that's fine, but you're gonna have a better chance of getting into the show if you call so we can hear your voice. And we have perfectly. Given that there's two of us, Rom, having decamped, we have two voicemails this week. Let's play the first one for you from our friend Ryan. Hi, guys.

[Rahm Emanuel]

My name is Ryan from St. Louis.

[John Heilemann]

I've had a theory for a while.

[David Axelrod]

That Democrats put too much thought into.

[John Heilemann]

The electorate having common sense and not fighting back on the crazy stuff early enough. I was wondering about your thoughts on that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Thank you. Bye.

[David Axelrod]

Yeah, Ryan, this is akin to the discussion we were just having. First of all, thanks for calling in, and thanks for listening. And hey, to everybody in St. Louis, I think what Democrats need to do is stay close to people. And as Rahm was saying, yes, I think there's all kinds of what you call crazy, I call dangerous stuff going on, and you have to fight those fights. But ultimately, people also are living their lives, and they're struggling with higher costs, and they're struggling with a slowing economy and job situation. And fundamentally, they need to know someone's fighting on their side in the midst of all of this. And so I would not, you know, I still think that needs to be a major focus of what Democrats are doing, even as they push back on these sort of autocratic incursions of Trump, because you want to save American democracy, but you also want to save the American family that is suffering in this economy and give them a sense of confidence that you have a vision to make this country work better for them. So I think you have to do two things at once.

[John Heilemann]

I couldn't agree more, David. The challenge is, you know, crazy. You know, Trump says. I think one of the things that, that, that our friend could be, that Ryan could be thinking about here is, you know, things like Trump, you know, talking about the, the crazy stuff includes things like, you know, changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America. And, you know, Trump does throw a lot of chum in the water. I don't, I think, you know, yeah.

[David Axelrod]

You don't want to chase every bit of Chuck.

[John Heilemann]

But the key element is Democrats having to make some better distinctions between what is crazy stuff that, that no one really cares about and stuff that's crazy that actually, in a weird way, kind of somehow gets in under the skin and ends up mattering more than you think.

[David Axelrod]

I'll tell you, the, the stuff that, that should be chased is the stuff that actually raises people's costs.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Right.

[David Axelrod]

And makes it harder and not easier for people and creates more turmoil and more peril for people, be it, you know, waging a war on vaccines that we know, work to, you know, the tariffs. And so, you know, I, I think you're right, John. You got to center the stuff that someone said the main thing should be. The main thing that's such.

[John Heilemann]

Your friend, Haley Barber. The main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing.

[David Axelrod]

Now Aaron has a voicemail question.

[John Heilemann]

That's Aaron with an A2, with a.

[David Axelrod]

Double Aaron, a double A R. Hey hacks.

[Rahm Emanuel]

This is Aaron from Bellingham, Washington. And my question today is if the Republicans could be overplaying their hand and with redistricting cut their margins and in the wave election, couldn't they end up losing a lot of seats that they'd have otherwise kept safe?

[John Heilemann]

Aaron raises a good point. It's so good that we actually started to touch on it. David, you did earlier in the show today and I think, you know that it is, you know, I go back to Dave Wasserman who, who says, you know, it's, it's not that often though.

[David Axelrod]

The wizard of the wizard, the guy.

[John Heilemann]

Who'S, who's, whose Twitter handle is at Redis district. So he knows something about this and he was, he said, you know, it's not that often that these, that parties get the maps wrong, you know, and that, and that suddenly they, they miscalculate or whatever. But it is the case that they can misread some of the macro political trends. And, and one of the key one that you just mentioned earlier in the show I think is super important and there are Texas Republicans who are really worried about this is that they've redrawn these maps in Texas very much in accord with Trump's performance in the 2024 election and he overperformed so dramatically with Latinos in Texas that the combination of the fact that in midterms the party tends to underperform their presidential candidate in the previous two years earlier and the fact that the bottom is not quite cratering. But there is significant erosion happening in the Hispanic community with Trump because of the, the harshness and the capriciousness of the deportation agenda. Trump totally had their support on the border, doesn't so much have as their support on the Home Depot issue that you could see this thing coming back and if not hurting Republicans in Texas on net they don't get all five of the seats they think they're going to get. They may end up getting, you know, picking up those five seats but then losing a couple, having turned a couple of other seats into competitive seats and end up only netting one or two. So it could, there could be some kind of back bite there.

[David Axelrod]

Aaron's point that, that, that is what we were discussing. I believe that Aaron's point goes further, which is when you redistrict, when you gerrymander, you're taking, you're moving voters around and in this case, you're taking Democratic voters out of Republican districts and putting them somewhere else. And so you're making some districts less Republican and other districts more Republican. And you hope that the margins all work out for you. But if it is a wave election, there are some of those districts where you're moving Democratic voters that could become more problematical for you. So we shall see. I'm sure we're going to be talking a lot about this over the course of the next year.

[John Heilemann]

I gotta say, man, of all the things, this is such a small thing, but, you know, the idea that this, now, this kind of tactical, non census driven redistricting could become like a regular feature in our politics, I find it just, I mean, it seems like it's such a dorky thing to talk about compared to some of the things we're facing, David. But I do find it really depressing the idea that this is just going to be a partisan tool that both sides are going to use all the time.

[David Axelrod]

Well, listen, Matt, you know, here's what I believe. I agree with you that it seems small in light of large things, but this is really about accountability. This is really about oversight. This is really about whether or not there'll be guardrails. I've been plenty critical of my own party and I'm not a particularly partisan figure, despite what anybody thinks. But anybody who's followed me knows that. And so, you know, I don't wake up every morning thinking, man, I would just, you know, God, I wish Democrats controlled everything. But I do know that if the Congress continues down this road, that Trump, after a midterm election, feeling, you know, fortified. And I think that what we're going to look back at these two years as the good old days when it comes to outreach by a president. And we're going to be more down the road that we're on right now. So to me, it's more than a partisan issue. It's really an issue about whether there'll be an accountable Congress, a Congress that will hold everyone accountable, including the President or not.

[John Heilemann]

We started out this podcast with you talking about some of my favorite things. People in Chicago, the city of Big Shoulders and Windy City and all that drinking beer at 9 o' clock in the morning, as I remember them from my college days, that was such a cheerful image. And now you're like, we might look back on these two years as the good old days. I'm like, jesus Christ, no, no, bring me down, dude.

[David Axelrod]

I know. Well, you're just so gleeful all the Time. I just wanted to.

[John Heilemann]

Dose of reality into the situation. Okay, fine.

[David Axelrod]

So there's one more question that we got all really excellent, and maybe some of them can be salvaged for future shows.

[John Heilemann]

Jen, who said, what's the best piece of political advice you've ever gotten? I would say, you know, given that Rahm's not here, you know, what's the best piece of political advice you've ever given? David?

[David Axelrod]

Well, I'd like to talk about the best advice I've ever gotten. And there were two pieces of advice. One was from Gary Hart, Senator Gary hart, IN. In 1987. We met in Chicago. He was planning to run for president, and we were talking about the American political landscape. And he paused at one point and he said, just remember one thing. Washington's always the last to get the news. And that is a piece of advice that has served me so well over the years, and it served me well when I worked in Washington because I realized that I was looking at the country through a periscope and that I was stuck in this echo chamber. And that often the conversation in Washington was not the conversation people were having around their kitchen tables. And oftentimes, when people make mistakes politically at the national level, it's because they're paying more attention to the echo chamber than they are to the voices of people. And that is still true today. The other is a. A more a closer home piece of advice that I got from a Chicago alderman, an old Chicago alderman, Dick Mel, years ago. And he was talking to me about a colleague who was thinking of running in the City Council, who was thinking of running for higher office. And I said, well, what do you think? And he said, he'll never make it. And I said, why not? He says, because the higher a monkey climbs on a pole, the more you can see his ass. Meaning that the higher the office you seek, the more scrutiny you get. That is also true.

[John Heilemann]

You know, it turns out. It turns out if you look. If you get. If you see more of the monkey's ass, what becomes clear is that it's an MRI of the soul. Like, that's the thing. The monkey's ass is kind of like the way that you see into the soul. Yes, it is.

[David Axelrod]

That is. That is a piece of. It's a related piece.

[John Heilemann]

It's a related piece.

[David Axelrod]

It is. It is. It helped inform my view that presidential races are MRIs for the soul. And whoever you are, ultimately, people get to know that, especially the better you do. So.

[John Heilemann]

Best piece of political advice I've ever gotten was an advice given to me by my late, great mother, who, when I went off to college, gave me a piece of advice that has served me well throughout afterwards, which she was like, I really don't care what you do, but don't get arrested and don't get dead. That was like. That's. That's kept me afloat ever since. That's a good advice from Canada, too. Don't get arrested and don't get dead.

[David Axelrod]

Well, this don't get arrested thing may cause you to want to revise some of your comments on this podcast before we send it out. I don't know. The way things are going, you could end up in Bolton land.

[John Heilemann]

I said the advice was good. I didn't say I followed it. I got arrested three times in college alone. What are you talking about?

[David Axelrod]

I'm sure. I'm sure that that's in a file somewhere. And we'll. We'll. We may learn about it someday, so.

[John Heilemann]

I'm going to try to keep following that advice. We head to Labor Day weekend. David, I hope you have.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You're.

[John Heilemann]

You're like in the. You're like Michigan, Chicago for Labor Day. Have fun.

[David Axelrod]

All right, brother. You, too. And to everybody out there, and we'll see you on the other side. See ya, Sam.