← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
Hey, how you doing?
- [00:01]
Laverne Cox
Hello. I'm just making a jacket adjustment.
- [00:04]
Kara Swisher
Shall I take off my less attractive jacket? Like much less attractive. Hi, everyone. From New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is four time Emmy nominated actress, producer and activist Laverne Cox. I've been a fan of hers since forever. When she was on Orange and the Zoo Black, she was a promising young woman. I just think she's fantastic. I recently ran into her and met her for the first time last fall on the set of the Daily show and I knew I had to have her on and immediately asked her right there like a crazy fan. Cox has been an actress for decades. As I said, she's become a household name in her role as the in house hairstylist Sophia Bursette on Orange is the New Black. I watched the entire show. Everybody stands out on that show. But she was a particular standout. In 2014, she was nominated for an Emmy in that role. That year, she also became the first transgender person to be featured on the COVID of Time magazine. Since then, Cox has been in dozens of movies and TV shows, including, as I said, the Oscar winning film Promising Young Woman, and please see it if you haven't, the miniseries Inventing Anna and the dystopic sci fi movie Uglies that was a hit this fall on Netflix. She's also hosted her own podcast, and until recently, Cox was the host of E's Live from the Red Carpet. I love red carpet shows.
- [01:33]
Laverne Cox
Shh.
- [01:33]
Kara Swisher
Don't tell, but I love them. Cox also made it her mission to bring trans stories into the limelight. In 2015, she won a Daytime Emmy for the T Word, a documentary she executive produced that follows the lives of transgender kids all over the country. In 2020, she executive produced the Netflix documentary Disclosure about trans representation in Hollywood. And in February, her new comedy series Clean Slate is premiering on Prime Video. Cox wrote, produced, and stars as a woman who returns to her hometown to reunite with her estranged father after the series is set in Mobile, Alabama, also Cox's hometown. So I'm curious how much of her own story she's poured in there. More than anything off the screen, Cox has become a formidable advocate for trans rights. I'm thrilled to talk to her because she's such an insightful person. She's very funny. She's got a lot to say, and I don't know what a woman. We're also gonna clear up some of the terrible misinformation they're blasting about gender affirming care and kids. The kids are not. All right, we're gonna talk about that. So st support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Intuit. Are you marketing to small businesses? With Intuit SMB Media Labs, you can connect to millions of small businesses across new and established channels like Social Programmatic and ctv. With First Party, small business audiences, target by industry size, maturity, location and more. And connect with the companies that need you most. Do more with tailored insights from Intuit SMB Media Labs. Learn more at media labs.intoit.com Support for the show comes from NerdWallet. When it comes to finding the best financial products ever, wish that someone would do the heavy lifting for you, Take all that research off your plate. Well, with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, that wish has finally come true. The nerds at NerdWallet have reviewed more than 1100 financial products like credit cards, saving accounts and more to highlight and bring you only the best of the best. Check out the 2025 Best of Awards today@nerdwallet.com awards.
- [03:51]
Laverne Cox
It is on.
- [03:52]
Kara Swisher
Laverne Cox, welcome. Thanks for being on on. It's good to have you here.
- [03:56]
Laverne Cox
I'm so excited to be here. I can't wait for our conversation.
- [03:59]
Kara Swisher
When, when we met back in October at the Daily show, you looked very good in purple, by the way. And you were in a particularly fighting mood, which I thought was wonderful. But things have and you gave sort of a great essay, a spoken essay on where things were. Things have changed a lot since then for the good and bad. And I know you said election night was hard for you and it's affecting me. It's affecting you. It's affecting a lot of people. How are you feeling right now?
- [04:29]
Laverne Cox
How am I feeling? I'm feeling a lot of things. And for me, it's been very important to maintain a both and a just for my own mental health, the understanding that we are in peril in this country in a really profound way on so many different levels. And that as a trans person, there has been a coordinated, well funded campaign over the past now five years to dehumanize me and my community. That has worked. And that dehumanization has led to 26 states banning gender affirming care for young people. The Supreme Court is likely to do that when that decision comes down in June, 24 states banning trans people from sports when there's very few trans people actually playing sports. And it's likely and now there are bathroom bans in states. When we were able to defeat those bathroom bans in 2016, it didn't work the first time. Yeah, it didn't work the first time. And so I think what people should know, should understand is that what was brilliant in terms of like dehumanizing and strategy from the right wing is that they literally did focus groups on what issue around trans folks upset you the most in trans people in sports was the Trojan horse. And so then, I mean, if you look back four years ago, there were hundreds of segments run on Fox News about trans people in sports. You would think that we were dominating in sports and people weren't paying attention. And so this, they slowly created through propaganda, a permission structure to demonize trans people through sports. And sports is a great gateway as well, because we're immediately talking about bodies, performance, hormone levels. And so when we're talking about people's bodies, we objectify. And when we objectify, we can dehumanize. And so that became the Trojan horse to create a permission structure to discriminate against trans people. And then they're coming after the children. And then, so then you've already created this thing around trans people as they're unfair. They're not really human beings. They're like dominating in sports. And then we have to protect the children. And now we're in a position where, you know, during a presidential election, it is stunning to me that $215 million was spent in anti trans ads on network TV alone. So this is not including the Internet or stream.
- [07:05]
Kara Swisher
Let's talk about that. Because as you said, Trump put over $200 million into anti trans ads during the campaign.
- [07:11]
Laverne Cox
And the super PACs and all, you know, Trump. But the right way.
- [07:14]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, including feature clip from Charlamagne, the God. He and I talked about that. He was sort of. He was very irritated. It was taken out of. He thought it was taken out of context. On the other hand, Vice President Kamala Harris is very pro LGBTQ rights. It seemed like her campaign tried to ignore those ads and anti trans rhetic. Instead of addressing them. Talk a little bit about this because it worked that when you go to focus groups now, those ads are the ones that stayed in people's brains.
- [07:43]
Laverne Cox
Okay. So I think when you look at this, there's new data out that ultimately Trump did not gain a larger percentage of the voting population.
- [07:54]
Kara Swisher
No, he didn't.
- [07:55]
Laverne Cox
What happened is that Democrats and left leaning people stayed home. So what happened ultimately with the Harris campaign is that they did not turn out the base, they did not give an affirmative message, a clear message that affected the lives of people. They weren't able to communicate what happened, what the good things that happened during the Biden administration. She didn't break enough with the Biden administration as well on where she needed to break with him. So there was just a lot of strategic failures. There was her leaning towards the right with Liz Cheney and all of that. So all of that is not going to bring out your base. I think what we have to understand now is that our country is so severely divided that we have to turn out our base. So around the trans. So the question around the trans piece is that, I mean, AOC said it brilliantly, is that the end of the ad said they're for they them, Trump is for us. And so it created an us in them, literally in the ad. And Trump gives the veneer of being for the people. And they do. The Republican Party does cater to their.
- [09:09]
Kara Swisher
Base rhetorically, but it was good rhetoric for that.
- [09:13]
Laverne Cox
But then I also think that at the end of the day, what as far as the trans question or the trans part in relationship to the election, that was not the top thing that people were voting on. If you look at exit polls, people are not. That's not the top. Trans people are. It's not the top issue that people are voting on. Democrats and people on the left say that the right wing uses culture war issues and I wish we would lose that language. I think culture war is not useful. I think we should use language, civil rights and human rights. Culture war diminishes. The leftists and Democrats say that these issues are a distraction and we need to lose that as well, because it's not a distraction. If you read Project 2025, if you read this recent op ed from Josh Hawley, it is part of the program. The Heritage foundation and Lies Defending Freedom. They are deeply transphobic, deeply homophobic, misogynist. This whole idea of the unitary executive the is about a white Christian nationalism that places the man at the head of the household and subjugates everybody else. So neffing out trans people, taking away women's rights, getting rid of black people or putting them in jail is part of the program. It's not a distraction. It is part of what they wanna do.
- [10:36]
Kara Swisher
So this is a huge backslide. Civil Rights was the subtitle of your 2014 TIME cover. You were the first transgender person to be on the COVID of Time magazine. The title was the Transgender Tipping America's Next Civil Rights Frontier. Obviously you've had A lot of momentum of your life and career in the past decade. What happened? Because in 2020, in a documentary disclosure that you produced, you and a number of other people worried there would be a backlash to all the media attention for the trans community. And unfortunately, it looks like you're right. Let me play a clip very quickly from the Daily show in October where you gave an impassioned monologue about it. Let's hear a tiny bit of it.
- [11:14]
Laverne Cox
These days, the bullying is also happening from people way more immature than teenagers. Politicians. The surge in anti LGBTQ legislation across the country. With more than 500 bills so far this year, 11 states limit instruction around.
- [11:31]
Kara Swisher
Sexual orientation or gender identity in schools. 25 states bar transgender minors under 18 from having gender affirming care. 22 states banning trans kids from school sports.
- [11:45]
Laverne Cox
And you thought the government and couldn't get anything done. Great work, lawmakers. Thanks for making sure schools don't teach about sexual orientation or gender identity. Because pretending trans kids don't exist means they disappear. Just like pretending climate change doesn't exist means it disappears too. So I guess we'll never know why my tits are sweating in December.
- [12:09]
Kara Swisher
Obviously you're making a joke, but these bands are clear. No laughing ladder. Talk about what's happened from that Time magazine cover, which was widely celebrated, to now. And now it's obviously become not just a political punching bag. It seems to be an obsession on some level.
- [12:29]
Laverne Cox
The right wing has, through propaganda, really effective propaganda and rhetoric across multiple platforms have created a permission structure to dehumanize trans people and scapegoat us. And that is indeed a direct response to unprecedented visibility of trans people. That started arguably with Orange is the New Black Transparent pose. A lot of social media influences who are trans, and a media that was open and accepting and in a country that was open and accepting to trans people. And just really 2020 was when it really got going. In just four, now five years, they've done an amazingly effective job of demonizing, dehumanizing trans people. I mean, I think we have to also understand that trans people, it was just a few years, right? So there hadn't been a gender revolution in the country where people had thought differently about gender. So we were just getting started and it was a very coordinated strategy, mostly from Alliance, Defending Freedom by Heritage foundation, all these other organizations, they get on the same page, they get all the talking points and they just pound them over and over and over again all over the Internet, all over right wing media. So they've been really effective in their propaganda campaign. To demonize us, make it seem like, why.
- [14:00]
Kara Swisher
But why? You know, you had this moment.
- [14:03]
Laverne Cox
Why would they do it? Or why have they been effective?
- [14:05]
Kara Swisher
No, I know why they do it. Why has it been effective?
- [14:08]
Laverne Cox
Um, I think it's been effective because still, even with the increased visibility of trans people, a lot of people still don't personally know someone who's trans. A lot of people still, even when they were accepting, didn't fully understand trans identity. And where the right wing is focused on transition and sports, they. People don't know anything about trans healthcare. And it's really none of their business, honestly. If you're not a trans person or have a trans child, trans healthcare is really not your business. But the lack of. I actually said this to Sam Feder, who directed disclosure, the narrative around trans people since Christine Jorgensen, who was the first globally famous trans person who became famous in 1952. The headline was GI turns into blonde Jane. The emphasis was on surgery, the surgical transition from Christine Jorgensen. And the narrative really didn't change much, to my chagrin. All the work that I've done, so much of my work in the public eye has been about trying to change the narrative around trans people away from surgery and transition, because that necessarily dehumanizes us. Right.
- [15:21]
Kara Swisher
Well, what's interesting is I had. When I first had a. I have four kids, but when I had my first son and I had him, I had so many straight people ask me about how I had them. It was so strange. They wanted to understand whether my other son was related to him. They were very interested in the genetics of the whole thing. Only straight people, FYI.
- [15:39]
Laverne Cox
And why do you think that is?
- [15:41]
Kara Swisher
Cause they couldn't understand it any other way. They had to under. Well, who's related to who? Oh, phew. It's your kid, right? Oh, you had him. You know what I mean? Oh, you were pregnant. The genetic link had to be important to them. Especially when my sons, who have the same father. Oh, they're related. Then I was like, they are related. No matter what. It was really, it was fancy. And whenever they'd ask, I'm like, I said, why don't you figure it out? I'm not gonna tell you about it right now. Let me ask you in that thing is, it still works. As you were noting, bathrooms in initially didn't work, but now they are working. Which Republicans have been long obsessed with people in bathrooms. Delaware representative Sarah McBride has been the first transgender woman elected to Congress. Almost immediately, House Speaker Mike Johnson passed a bill preventing her from Using the women's bathroom pushed by Nancy Mace. Why do you. What happened? Because that didn't work the first time, and it seems to at least be a touchstone. Talk about why it shifted to be useful and what's the obsession.
- [16:42]
Laverne Cox
It is, and I said it already, and I believe this is the truth. The Trojan horse of sports. Trans people in sports. Well, that's not fair. We believe in fairness and things have to be fair, and that the people don't believe that trans women are women. That created a permission structure to demonize trans people, to dehumanize trans people. And once you can dehumanize a population, you can then take away their rights and commit violence against them. And so dehumanization is at the heart of this. When I talk about dehumanization, I love to allude to Brene Brown's work on this in her book Braving the Wilderness when she talks about dehumanization. She says that dehumanization is a process using primarily words and images, which is very important. Primarily words and images to take one, a specific group of people, and move them into the space of moral exclusion. Meaning that us, as human beings, we're not hardwired to do harm to each other. But if we can make that group of people not human anymore, put them in the space of moral exclusion, then we can commit harm against them. Then we can take away their rights, commit violence against them. And we see the dehumanization with immigrants. We've seen it with black people, you know, since we, you know, for decades. Centuries, rather, centuries, women. So even the abortion conversation. So I. What I even. I think we've faltered. I may be wrong on this, but this is something I've been thinking about, so I'll run it by you. I think it's deeply dehumanizing in reproductive rights conversations, when I see often men talking about, well, how many weeks should it be before the baby can be aborted? Is it viability? Is it six weeks? Is it 15 weeks, 24 weeks? And it's like these conversations about weeks just takes out the fact that there is a human being who is carrying this fertilized egg. Fetus. If you believe in a personhood, life begins at conception. What of the person who has the fertilized egg in them? Are they no longer a person? That language, even having the conversation in that frame, starts from a dehumanized place automatically. Once there's a fertilized egg inside of me, I no longer have control over my body. I'm no longer human. Just the way we've been talking about abortion for is deeply dehumanizing. So so much of what we must do, those who are progressive left leaning, believe in social injustice and inequality. We must not concede to right wing framing of our issues. And that's been the big struggle for me around talking about trans issues that not conceding to the way, having the conversation on their terms and their frame.
- [19:37]
Kara Swisher
Right. Well, but it is about bodily autonomy is what you're talking about. But one of the things to be clear about trans people are four times as likely as cisgender people to be victims of violent crime. This is longstanding. What does it mean in terms right now as we're moving into this era of people living or traveling through some of those states which are passing the bathroom bills, they can't do it fast enough. Like you said, good job, lawmakers. Do you feel, do you have a safety concern and how do you look at the violence has always been a part of the trans experience. It used to be a much heavier part of the gay experience. But talk a little bit about this where we stand right now.
- [20:19]
Laverne Cox
I try not to succumb to fear. I've traveled to Florida a few times in the past year for work and there's a little bit of anxiety. And I mean, the problem with the bathroom issue is the enforcement, right? Like, is there going to be sort of a bathroom monitor outside bathrooms everywhere to sort of enforce that? But it does create a system where we create. We have gender police. We used to deputize citizens to be gender police and go on transvestigations.
- [20:53]
Kara Swisher
Transvestigate.
- [20:55]
Laverne Cox
It's. I mean, the transvestigation are. It's funny, but it's hilarious.
- [21:00]
Kara Swisher
And it's scary, but it's funny. It's funny. Not funny.
- [21:03]
Laverne Cox
It's funny. And it's not funny because it's so ridiculous. Right? Like, so then what happens and what it's always happened is that then these transphobia only doesn't just affect trans people. There's so many CIS women or non trans women, whatever language you prefer. Some people have issues with the term cis, but non trans women who identify as women who might not conform to someone's idea of what a woman should look like, and they're being policed in bathrooms. They're being confronted and saying, you're not supposed to be in here, you're not a woman. There was an incident last year where a grandfather who was going to watch his granddaughter play was like, why is that boy playing? And it turns out that it was not a trans girl that she had just gotten a pixie cut and she cut her hair short. And then there was this big hubbub cuz people thought that like a trans girl was playing sports and it wasn't fair. So what happens with all of this transphobia and policing gender and banning, attempting to ban us from sports and bathrooms is that it affects all women because none of us is really woman enough. But I cannot divorce that from the fight for reproductive rights and bodily autonomy, the connecting it to the Christian nationalist agenda of making the man the head of the household, outlawing no fault divorce. That's happening at the same time that we're attacking reproductive rights. So all of these things are connected around restoring order to the sort of gender binary order that is also tied to heterosexism and tied to traditional family. So all of these things are connected.
- [22:47]
Kara Swisher
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- [23:58]
Laverne Cox
Okay, business leaders, are you playing defense or are you on the offense? Are you just. Excuse me.
- [24:04]
Kara Swisher
Hey, I'm trying to talk business here.
- [24:06]
Laverne Cox
As I was saying, are you here.
- [24:08]
Kara Swisher
Just to play or are you playing to win?
- [24:10]
Laverne Cox
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- [24:13]
Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
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- [24:53]
Laverne Cox
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- [25:06]
Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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- [25:25]
Kara Swisher
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- [25:28]
Laverne Cox
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- [25:32]
Kara Swisher
Meta is getting rid of third party fact checkers and said they're going to restore free expression. Basically they aren't going to monitor hate speech. They're particularly zeroing in on LGBTQ stuff and trans stuff. That's one they're not going to monitor anymore. It looks like their new guidelines don't allow people to insult people based on their mental health, except in one specific I'm going to read it for you. We do allow allegations of mental illness or abnormality when based on gender or sexual orientation. Given political and religious discords about transgenderism and homosexuality and common non serious usages of the word like weird, you can now call everybody weird and attack gay and trans people now.
- [26:14]
Laverne Cox
Yeah.
- [26:15]
Kara Swisher
What did you think of this? Had you paid a lot of attention? This is on Facebook, Instagram and throw.
- [26:21]
Laverne Cox
It actually reminds me of a debate that an excerpt from a debate on Tim Pool's show. This is probably like five or six years ago before the musk rule on Twitter. Now X and misgendering was something that was not allowed on Twitter at the time. Yes. And Tim Pool's argument was that that biased conservatives because conservatives didn't believe in misgendering. Right? Conservatives don't believe that some conservatives don't believe that trans people exist. So their argument was that it was a liberal bias. And so what Zuckerberg seems to be conceding is that in the language in his announcement he said often our fact checkers had political bias. And so again, that is conceding to a right wing framing around human rights and civil rights and respecting people to make honoring the dignity of LGBTQ People not calling us mentally ill, not dead, naming us, being able to just say sort of all sorts, make up all sorts of lies about us. Basically, like that. What they've been doing rather effectively to allow that is basically to concede to every single lie that the Republican Party has been telling about trans people over the past four years and say, and if you. If you have an issue with the lie and you wanna actually tell the truth, and if you want to acknowledge the humanity of LGBTQ people, you're politically biased. That is actually what's happening. If we just really look at it, that is what's happening. And ultimately, what Zuckerberg is doing is conceding to power.
- [28:10]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [28:10]
Laverne Cox
I think the difference between Trump's election the first time and Trump's election this time is that there was a resistance. There was a women's march. People were like, we're gonna fight against this. Now everybody's like, well, this is who's. And he's been very clear. Anyone who dissents, he's going to, like, you know, sort of get rid of them or, you know, sue them, you know, charge them criminally. People are lining with power. And I think the really important thing to understand about fascism is that this is how fascism rises, right? That everyone capitulates to power, where the dehumanization of large swaths of people is normalized, and they have normalized. Dehumanizing trans people, dehumanizing immigrants is so deeply normalized. And what is so sad is that the Democrats have been reactive and not proactive. The left has not been proactive enough in terms of creating counternarratives. And I really think that, for me, it's about humanizing people. It's about a rehumanizing process. If we start to look at this, at all of our politics in the lens of. Of dehumanization versus rehumanization, how do we humanize individuals and people and change the language from culture war to human rights and civil rights? Then we can start to frame these issues on our terms and on the terms around truth.
- [29:39]
Kara Swisher
How do you react, though, to some within the community itself, even that says, don't be too loud. We're being too. In your face. We're being too angry. It recalls a little bit of when the AIDS crisis was going and people were mad at ACT up. I love them. You know, some of the gay communities.
- [29:57]
Laverne Cox
Like ACT up as well.
- [29:58]
Kara Swisher
Let's be quiet. And even within the community itself, there's that movement. Like, maybe we should dial it back a little bit.
- [30:05]
Laverne Cox
There are many Trans people who are wanting to throw non binary people under the bus and saying that, like us being that it's trans people's fault for allowing non binary people a seat at the table around transness. And I completely disagree.
- [30:20]
Kara Swisher
Is it a big trend from your perspective? Because I'm hearing it more and more. I hear it from a lot of people. They'd only be a little quieter. They get what they want. And I'm like, no, I mean, that's.
- [30:30]
Laverne Cox
Not, I mean that's just not factually correct. I mean, if someone wants to oppress you, they're going to oppress you. And I think what we have to understand about the right wing now is that the truth does not matter. Kamala Harris was not this bleeding liberal. She just wasn't. She was a former prosecutor, she served in the Biden administration, which is very. Although they did some great stuff on labor. It's pretty corporate, Democrat, centrist, she's a interest. But they painted her as this communist. They painted Obama as a socialist communist. So it doesn't matter what you do. They're gonna make up stuff and they're gonna lie about you. So then what does it mean to be in the truth? What are our values? And there are lots of trans people have never been a monolith. And there's some trans people who've always had issues because of our own internalized transphobia around people who are non binary, people who don't conform to gender expectations within a binary. Those trans people have existed since trans people have existed. Right. And I, I think that's internalized transphobia and that's work that we should be doing on ourselves. But I. What? What? And I, I do believe that we should be doing the work to dismantle the gender binary because I think it harms everybody. I think those, all those white men who are in pair and you know, feeling alienated and a lot of it is about the gender binary and them not being able to what that gender binary means. None of us can live up to it. I don't care who. None of us can live up to the expectations of being the perfect man, the perfect woman. This trad wife stuff that's all over the Internet, no one can live up to that. So we all fall short. But if we let it go, if we let it go, that's where our liberation is. To answer your question more directly, though, for the people who are saying we shouldn't be as loud, I don't think it's about being loud because we're not that loud. They've painted us that way. We've been painted that way. That is proper. And we are conceding to their propaganda.
- [32:32]
Kara Swisher
So time for expert question. We have this week, we have one from someone you know.
- [32:36]
Laverne Cox
Hi, I'm Chase Strangio, co director of the LGBTQ and HIV project at the aclu. I'm also lucky to be Laverne's friend and collaborator and always an admirer of her work in all its forms. My question is, Laverne, if you could alter one major historical event that occurred in your life, what would you change? How would you change it? And why? Chase is so brilliant. He asks difficult questions. I love Chase. I love hearing his voice. It's really interesting how my nervous system shifted when I heard Chase's voice. We've been siblings in a fight, but I love him so much, and he's such an incredible human being. So it's just regulating our nervous systems right now is also really important. One historical thing that I would change and one why. Oh, my goodness, this is just off the top of my head. I've never contemplated this question before in my life. Reagan being elected, I would change. Reagan being elected could even be Nixon. But I think Reagan was really a huge, huge, huge problem.
- [33:41]
Kara Swisher
Because you think that's where it began. Newt Gingrich, Reagan, that kind of thing.
- [33:44]
Laverne Cox
A lot of this really began with Nixon. I would suggest the crime stuff when we think about the Moynihan Report, but so many things were solidified around education and, like, really defunding education. The trickle down thing, the welfare queen stuff, the war on drugs. So much happened around regulation, if you think about antitrust. Bork. I mean, just so many things. Because when Reagan was so successful, that also prompted the Democratic Party to shift more to the center. The Clinton. When we look back at the Clinton administration, it was hardly a progressive administration, Right. And so many things around his legacy, thinking about DOMA and don't ask, don't tell, but also the repeal of Glass Steagall, that happened on Clinton's watch.
- [34:41]
Kara Swisher
You're correct.
- [34:41]
Laverne Cox
The repeal of Glass Steagall was huge. And just the neoliberal sort of corporatization of everything is really. And then there's so much about money and politics, too. Some of those policies were changed under Reagan. That's what I would change.
- [34:59]
Kara Swisher
Wow.
- [35:00]
Laverne Cox
I appreciate.
- [35:01]
Kara Swisher
I appreciate a gal who references a law that separated commercial and investment banking. I appreciate that so much. But speaking of historical events, for those who don't know, last month Chase became the first openly transgender lawyer to argue a case for the Supreme Court. His team represented a doctor, parents and transgender kids from Tennessee in the United States v. Scarmetti who were challenging the constitutionality of the bans on gender affirming care for minors. It seems like the conservative led court will likely uphold the ban. Talk a little bit about this because this is after bathrooms didn't work, but sports did. And now this really is working. It seems to be working on some level, although there's a lot of parents pushing back here too, which is, let me make a decision with me and my kid and my doctor. Right? So talk a little bit about the broader implications then. I want to go through the narrative with some true or false.
- [35:54]
Laverne Cox
This case is so interesting to me on so many levels because right now, like DeSantis and the Republican Party in general want like parental rights and education, right? A lot of the don't say gay bill was about parental rights. Right. So the parents should be able to decide what their kids are being taught so they're not indoctrinated into something. But then when it comes to parents rights with their trans children, the parents should not have the right. Not right, the hypocrisy. But Republicans don't care about hypocrisy. Like they don't care. But I think that is important to note. I think again, what this does. If you read Project 2025, if you listen to conservatives and what they want to do. When Michael Noll says we want to ban transgenderism from public life, ultimately, it's never been just about the kids, right? I think this is the beginning of a national ban for gender affirming care, not only for children, but only for adults. Effectively. In Florida, there is a ban on gender affirming care for adults because DeSantis introduced a law saying that only doctors can administer gender affirming care in Florida. When 80% of trans people in Florida get their gender affirming care from nurse practitioners. So 80% of Florida residents who are trans can no longer have access to gender affirming care in that state. It's like one of the trap laws with abortion. This is what they want to do nationally. They don't want us to exist as trans people. And I believe them. And they have created a cultural climate where they're going to be able to do it.
- [37:28]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. This episode is brought to you by Shopify.
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
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Laverne Cox
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Kara Swisher
Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply this week on Prof. G Markets, we speak with.
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Laverne Cox
Ramit Sethi, bestselling author of I Will Teach youh to Be Rich and his brand new book, Money for Couples. We discuss why he recommends joint bank accounts for couples, the pros and cons of prenups, and the most common arguments couples have about money. Your $20 extra purchase at Target is is not the reason that you're stressed out about money.
- [38:48]
Kara Swisher
It almost always tracks back to two expenses and one big problem. The two expenses are people overspend on housing. They overspend on cars.
- [38:56]
Laverne Cox
They have no idea how to calculate affordability. And the real problem is they just don't have a shared vision for their rich life. You can find that conversation and many others exclusively on the Prof. G Markets podcast.
- [39:09]
Kara Swisher
So the Republican narrative is that liberal parents, teachers, and doctors are pushing kids to being trans. They're pumping them full of hormones. Trump seems to think kids are getting surgeries at school, at their lunch break. There's this idea a lot of people regret gender affirming care, and some may. I know you aren't Google and I don't think a lot of gender transition is about hormones and surgeries, but conservatives are spreading a lot of misinformation. If you don't mind, can we do a myth busting lightning round for that lightning round? Okay, just we're talking about true or false. Gender affirming care equals surgery.
- [39:40]
Laverne Cox
False, false, false.
- [39:42]
Kara Swisher
100%.
- [39:42]
Laverne Cox
Gender affirming care often is just therapy, especially for a prepubescent child. It's just therapy. And maybe it's a name and a presentation. Maybe growing your hair out or cutting your hair and affirming the gender that someone identifies with before puberty. No one's like getting any surgery or.
- [40:01]
Kara Swisher
All right, hormones therapy and surgery easier or hard for teens to access. My brother's a doctor. He screams about this issue when they say it, but go ahead.
- [40:09]
Laverne Cox
It's insanely difficult to access if it was so easy. My girlfriends and I were joking, girl, if I could go to school and then come back, I mean, where was that the act? Getting access, Getting access to healthcare in general in this country is really difficult. And getting access to gender affirming care, I mean, we can talk. I've traveled the country in rural areas. It's extremely difficult to get access to gender affirming care. Extremely difficult. And it's. And insurance doesn't often cover it. It's also very expensive.
- [40:37]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I couldn't get Tylenol in my school anyway. Being trans is just a trend. I heard this yesterday from someone. Or caused by social contagion as Republican say many people. It's not just Republicans. Trust me.
- [40:48]
Laverne Cox
It's not just Republicans. Many Democrats have prescribed to that as that idea as well. False. And what? A new study just came out this week. They looked at the children who access insurance. Less than 110 of 1% of the kids from ages I think 7 to 17 access gender affirming care. Hormones and or puberty blockers. Less than 110 of of 1%. Those who are covered by insurance. That's not a social contagion. Also, if you just look at the study, I have to say this, that like these are people who are accessing gender affirming care. Sometimes somebody may identify as non binary, but they're not accessing gender affirming care. It's not a social contagion. This is propaganda and lies that the right wing is propagated.
- [41:33]
Kara Swisher
It's absolutely true. Okay. Most kids who get breast reductions and augmentations are transgender. True or false?
- [41:40]
Laverne Cox
False.
- [41:41]
Kara Swisher
False. Most are cisgender teens.
- [41:43]
Laverne Cox
Absolutely. And if you look at how many CIS kids get gender affirming care, nose jobs, boob jobs before they're 18, like there is. That's happening a lot more than trans people having care.
- [41:56]
Kara Swisher
All right. Liberal parents are forcing their kids to be transgender.
- [42:00]
Laverne Cox
False. And years ago I shared this video from a woman I do remember, Debbie Jackson, and she talked about this. She was like, the idea is that these parents are liberal. She was like, I'm a conservative. I vote Republican. I go to church every Sunday, I'm a Christian. And there's a group of actual Christian moms in the south who found a way to support their trans kids. So there's a lot of conservative parents who have to reckon with the survival of their children and it's hard for them. And a lot of conservative parents are deciding that they'd rather have an alive trans kid than a Dead child who in denial about who they are.
- [42:40]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Many transgender people regret taking hormones or getting surgery done.
- [42:45]
Laverne Cox
False. All the legitimate data, one study says less than 1% regret transition. Another study says less than 2%. So if we. The most generous thing is less than 2% of trans people regret surgery or transition. I think it's 14% of people regret knee surgery. Right. So less than 2% of trans people regret. And this study actually came from trans young people. Right. Specifically over following them over like about a decade, I think. Was the study so False, false, false. It's again, they amplify one or two stories of people who have regret to do propaganda. But if you look at the data, false, false, false, false. And if honestly less than 1%, less than 2% is really successful when you actually think about it, when you think about just healthcare in general and all the complications that can happen from surgery or any kind of medication, medical treatment, we're doing really well.
- [43:45]
Kara Swisher
The bans on gender affirming care are about protecting kids. That's the last one.
- [43:50]
Laverne Cox
False, false, false. It actually harms kids. Policing kids and their gender, I said earlier, hurts all children. All the studies say that suicidality goes down when trans kids are affirmed, when they have love from their parents. The right wing has just done such an egregious job of saying that suicide goes up, which is insane. All the legitimate studies say that we are happier, healthier, less likely commit suicide when our gender is affirmed, when we have love and support in society, it's when we're discriminated that our lives become difficult, when we're not allowed to be ourselves.
- [44:34]
Kara Swisher
A lot of people do say that kids should wait until get this kind of care until they're adults. You didn't have access to any of these things as a child or teenagers. You're thriving. For example, they might point to you. How do you think your life would have been different if you had had access to gender affirming care as a teen? And I don't mean surgery. I don't mean hormones, therapy, acceptance.
- [44:52]
Laverne Cox
Oh my God, the first time I saw Jazz Jennings, I on TV, like 15 years ago or something. I was so jealous.
- [45:02]
Kara Swisher
Me too. I'm always jealous of the gay kids.
- [45:04]
Laverne Cox
I'm like, oh, God, I was so jealous. I was like, what would my life have looked like? I think for waiting till adulthood is a huge, huge problem. Right. In terms of, I mean, I did it is what it is. But like, what happens when you awake to adulthood? All the things that happen with puberty that the voice drops that testosterone hits the body and there's this massive masculinizing process happens for trans boys. They might develop breast tissue. All those things can, like, be. You cannot have those things happen. If you stop that puberty, that is not consistent with how you identify. My voice wouldn't be this deep. If I got to have puberty blockers as a young person, my transition wouldn't have been as difficult. I would be more feminine and probably more CIS assumed. When trans kids are allowed to transition, they're able to more effectively. I met a trans girl. She's a model. She's a supermodel, actually. I had been looking at her on the Runway for years and had no idea she was trans. And she was able to transition as a child. And so the ability to be able to go through life and be CIS assumed actually creates more safety for trans people. So we get to disclose when we want to, as opposed to people being able to tell and us experiencing violence because people commit violence against trans people. So I. That is. I think it's ridiculous. I think the quality of life of trans people who are able to have transition as kids is so much better.
- [46:42]
Kara Swisher
Same thing as gay. Same thing as gay.
- [46:43]
Laverne Cox
Wasted time later in life.
- [46:45]
Kara Swisher
Wasted so much.
- [46:46]
Laverne Cox
It's just a waste of time.
- [46:47]
Kara Swisher
It wasted. Waste of time and agony. Okay, so six states, though, including your home state of Alabama, make it a felony to provide certain forms of gender affirming care to transgender youth. Four states are targeting parents and guardians as well. In Florida and Texas, the state can even take away custody if they think the child is, quote, at the risk of being subject to gender affirming care. When you're talking to parents and trans youth, what are you telling them? How to deal with them moving, fighting. What's the one piece of advice? Some of them go stealth passes their gender without letting people know. What is your advice? Which is not a very good mental thing to do, to hide, as I know as a gay person, it was terrible.
- [47:26]
Laverne Cox
I've been advising that. I have. I know I have very close friends who have trans kids. If your child can be stealth, I would say be stealth. Oh, wow. I would say that because it's just too unsafe. I don't want. I don't want us to be killed. I don't want us to be murdered. I don't want parents to be taken away from their kids. If you can live stealth, it's safety. Stealth has always been about safety. It's not an option for everybody, though. Everybody can't be CIS assumed if that is an option for you, I would say do it until you can be safe. There are a lot of parents who are fleeing these states and access to gender affirming care is because of these bans. It's really difficult, particularly in the south. The Campaign for Southern Equality for a number of years now they have a scholarship fund to help and they have resources to help families get access to gender affirming care. What's the closest state you can go to scholarships to relocate? Campaign for Southern Equality. So if you can relocate, that's not, I mean, very privileged people can relocate. Who can relocate? You know, the trans kids who have access to gender affirming care, often very privileged. It's very few working class trans kids who are actually having access. And that's an issue, overall issue of healthcare in this country. Affordability and access for everybody across all fields of healthcare. If you can, if you can be stealth, be stealth. If you can flee, flee, Go to Campaign for Southern Equality. They have resources, they have information, they have scholarships to help people relocate or even just to travel to get access to your gender affirming care doctor if there's not one in your state or neighboring state.
- [49:04]
Kara Swisher
Okay, so you're a fantastic advocate. You also. I want to get a little bit to your work right now. Finish with your work. You're an amazing actress and producer. You have a new comedy series coming out in a few weeks in Prime Video. It's called Clean Slate. I got a sneak peek and it's very uplifting, it's very positive. Transits plays a role, but it's really about the power of love and community. You wrote, produced and star in the show as Desiree Slate, a daughter of a car wash king, Harry Slate. It's set in your hometown, Mobile, Alabama. Tell us a little bit about the show, especially your character and her dad. It's about manhood, fatherhood and how much of it was autobiographical.
- [49:41]
Laverne Cox
A lot of it. I'll leave it to your imagination. What really happened, A lot of it. And it's so this is a dream, dream of 15, 20 years. I produced a lot of documentary and non scripted work. This is the first time I've produced something that scripted my star in that I co write. So this is a realization of a dream 20 years in the making. So Desiree has moved away from home, Alabama at the age of 17 because she was being bullied and it just wasn't safe for her. She goes to New York and 23 years later she comes back home and her dad Harry has not heard, doesn't know that she's transitioned. So she sort of shows up and she's like, hi, I'm your daughter. And the show is about them reconnecting. She ends up living with him. So it's about him getting reacquainted with his daughter. She's, you know, an older woman. She's had a life in New York, but it's also about her healing her childhood trauma. She, like me, is found she was constantly in relationships with unavailable men. And. And so she, in her therapy, realizes she needs to go back to the first unavailable man in her life, which is her dad. And so it's about healing. But then it becomes a lot of the comedy comes from them trying to live together. I mean, the generational thing with two different generations trying to connect this woman who's lived in New York for 23 years and now coming back to Alabama. So this, like, you know, very urban, almost new age. She meditates.
- [51:15]
Kara Swisher
It's your version of Sweet Home album, Alabama.
- [51:19]
Laverne Cox
Yeah. So a lot of it's about generational things, but ultimately it's about family. And I rewatched the show in all eight episodes at once. And it's a wholesome show. It's really funny. George Wallace is a comedy legend, and he is hilarious in the show, but he's also really touching. This is also Norman Lear's last family comedy, the legendary Norman Lear, before he died. So we have to shut out Norman Lear and him believing in this project. And we pitched this everywhere, even with Norman Lear. We got so many nos. But he and Britt Miller pushed and got this show to Amazon prime, and we premiere February 6th.
- [51:57]
Kara Swisher
So the idea of having positive storylines. One of the most important books and movies for me was Vito Russo's Celluloid Closet. Celluloid Closet. Important you understand why people hate gay people. You do. You do. You're like, oh, I see why. You see all these depictions. And then when they changed, as you said, become human, it changes the narrative pretty quickly. So you talked about this idea of positive, wholesome storylines like clean slate versus the struggle that trans people go through, which is a lot of it, which is also true. Right? You've done both. And sometimes you've been in roles, like in the Netflix movie Uglies, which is a huge hit, you played a villainous Dr. Nya cable, where you're not defined as a trans woman. You were not defined as that and promising young woman by the. You're fantastic in that. Or Casey Duke in Inventing Anna. So is it important to have these representations? Is it important to have less negative, fewer negative ones. And what about not saying it at all?
- [53:01]
Laverne Cox
I've never been an advocate of positive versus negative representation. I've been an advocate of humanized representation. Human beings are flawed. Understanding someone's humanity means and loving them anyway means that understanding that they're flawed, that they had, that there are things that they might be struggling with, and the struggle is actually what makes us human. Just being a respectable person who's above reproach is not relatable. That's not human. Human beings struggle. So it's really about human representations and then having. And I think when it comes to trans represent representation, specifically having an understanding of the history of the tropes that would dehumanize. Like you mentioned Cellular Closet, which was a huge influence on our film Disclosure. If people are interested in, you know, what not to do with trans representation, they should watch Disclosure. But we also have ethnic notions from Marlon Riggs iconic documentary that looks at the history of black representation in cinema. And so how cinema, how media representation uses primarily words and images to dehuman. So then how can we use primarily words and images to humanize? And I think clean slate. Cause Desiree is not a perfect person, but she is human and she's struggling. And I hope people, I think we can. I know I connect with people when I understand they're struggling, when I understand how they're struggling. Because then I'm like, oh, that's me too. Like, sometimes I, you know, like I live for Beyonce, you know, and she. But Beyonce's done a good job of like being a goddess, but also saying that she struggles, that she, she has those, you know, giving birth and all the things. So it's about humanity. It's about how do we constantly move into the space of. And I would invite everybody when they're watching the news, when they're on the Internet, thinking of it, to think about is this dehumanizing or is this humanizing?
- [54:57]
Kara Swisher
Right. That's a very good point. So my last question. These attacks on the transgender community are heartbreaking. I think it's an astonishing shift, I have to say. And it must be exhausting to someone like you, who's worked so hard to humanize.
- [55:09]
Laverne Cox
It's devastating and traumatizing.
- [55:10]
Kara Swisher
Traumatizing.
- [55:11]
Laverne Cox
Yeah.
- [55:12]
Kara Swisher
You said two things. This is a double fisted question. You said that you and your trans friends were thinking about leaving the country. And then you're also an impressively positive person. You've talked about people can grow and change and become better allies. And there are Positive things. Seventeen states have so called shield laws protecting access to transgender healthcare, including California. Bans have been blocked or overturned in Arkansas and Montana. There are hopeful things happening. So talk to me about these two twin things. What would it take for you to move out of the country and what gives you hope?
- [55:48]
Laverne Cox
I have to be delicate around the moving out of the country thing. I only said I was contemplating it. And we've done extensive research about. I know what country. I'm not going to say I know what country I'm going to go to.
- [55:58]
Kara Swisher
Don't say Greenland. I just coming back, Greenland might be Panama. Don't say Panama.
- [56:04]
Laverne Cox
I know they're not on the list. I've done a lot of research on what country, Vietnam visa concern, all that stuff. So we're basically, we're getting the exit plan ready to go. And I think it's really going to.
- [56:16]
Kara Swisher
Be about, you got your go bag? You got your go bag?
- [56:19]
Laverne Cox
Yeah, I think. And I probably still work here. I think it's for me, it's about how if you read Project 2025 and I see how much and they have, it's a 180 day agenda, how much of their agenda they can get done quickly. I think if you look at again, historically, if there's a moment when they start putting undocumented or even documented immigrants in camps to do mass deportation, and then if that is coinciding with any kind of gender affirming national ban, you know, they wanted to do drag bans in certain states. So I think that'll be the moment of me needing to leave or. I mean, I think another concern that I have is as a high profile trans person, how if my identity is fully criminalized, like as a high profile person, does that make me even more of a target? So I'm gonna have to assess all of those things around when it may or may not be time to leave. I love America, by the way. I'm deeply patriotic. I've traveled all over the world and whenever I get back to America, I'm so happy. I love this country. I have issues with policy and many things, but I love America. I love America. What, what gives me hope are trans people. What gives me hope are trans people and community. I think now looking at the history of just marginalized and oppressed people in general, as a black person, we have always found ways as black folks, as LGBTQ folks, our identities have been criminalized before in this country. And we found community. We found ways to give mutual aid, to support each other. And so, so think we will find a way, we will make a way, and we will figure it out. And this is an opportunity for us to hopefully, even as we may disagree within community, to come together and understand that the right wing is not distinguishing between non binary and trans, between gay and trans.
- [58:21]
Kara Swisher
No.
- [58:22]
Laverne Cox
Between, you know, bisexual and trans. They want all of us gone. And so hopefully this will inspire us to come together and celebrate each other's human humanity and to fight.
- [58:36]
Kara Swisher
Well, you know, the lesbians have your back. I have a group called the Militia Etheridge, so.
- [58:44]
Laverne Cox
The Militia Etheridge.
- [58:46]
Kara Swisher
Don't mess with the lesbians. Don't.
- [58:49]
Laverne Cox
There are, and I have to say there are a lot of amazing lesbians and feminists, but there is a TERF movement as well, right?
- [58:55]
Kara Swisher
Yes. Oh, I agree. Oh, they're terrible. They're terrible.
- [58:58]
Laverne Cox
But again, I want to. I always want to focus on the. On the. On the. They're terrible. Cause we are what we focus on. Right. If I sort of put my energy into the. And I think that's. But I also think that's part of what Democrats have been doing is trying to focus their energy on the positive. I mean, Kamala Harris said nothing about. She didn't mention transgender people at all. Right. And I think ultimately, strategically, that was a mistake.
- [59:21]
Kara Swisher
I would've think she ran away from it.
- [59:23]
Laverne Cox
Her not talking about race was a problem as well. I think you're not going to get the. I mean, obviously she won the majority of black people, Democrats always do. But historically, the majority of white people, since LBJ, since 1964, have voted Republican. And are you running for office?
- [59:43]
Kara Swisher
Is that your next thing?
- [59:44]
Laverne Cox
Absolutely not. But I think that Democrats have to. Let me say this. The Democrats have to reckon with the relationship between campaign. How our campaigns are financed, particularly in primaries, but in general, how beholden we are to those donors. And then doing the will of the people. These things are not. They're in conflict. Getting money from corporate entities who want to deregulate and defund everything and doing the will for. Of the people who are most struggling, these things are in conflict. And so if the Democratic Party wants to win, I don't know if they. Sometimes, I don't even know if they want to win.
- [60:23]
Kara Swisher
Why don't you run? Seriously? I'm totally serious. Do you ever think of it?
- [60:26]
Laverne Cox
Politics is so grimy. And so, I mean, what they would do.
- [60:30]
Kara Swisher
I'll tell you, Marjorie Green would get out of your way.
- [60:32]
Laverne Cox
I work really hard to make sure my mental health is in a place where I can be of service and if I have been of service in my life, if I can be of service in this moment, that is. That feels like part of me fulfilling my higher powers plan for me. So I'm grateful.
- [60:50]
Kara Swisher
I think you're doing just fine and thank you so much.
- [60:53]
Laverne Cox
Thank you.
- [60:53]
Kara Swisher
I appreciate that.
- [60:54]
Laverne Cox
Thank you for this in depth conversation.
- [61:01]
Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro, Russell Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of Audio. Special thanks to Claire Hyman. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, March Marjorie Taylor Greene will get out of your way. If not, just don't be a bathroom monitor. Don't you have better things to do? In any case, go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.