← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
You know, it's okay for you to swear on this podcast. I hope you're not worried about that.
- [00:06]
Michelle Buteau
Thank fucking God it's on.
- [00:18]
Kara Swisher
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Michelle Buteau, the Hamaulti hyphenate, comedian, writer, actor and producer, and one of my favorites. Last year she made history as as the first female comic to record a standup special at Radio City Music Hall. A Beautiful Mind, her second special for Netflix, and she starred in the movie Babes with Ilana Glaser. Buteau's comedy has been described as dynamic, conversational and big hearted. I just think she makes me feel good. And I think comics right now are doing some of the most trenchant analysis of what's happening from a variety of different viewpoints. Not always things I agree with, but I'm really enjoying how much comics are really contributing to the conversation now, especially compared to a lot of people, including our politicians. The second season of our Netflix series Survival of the Thickest came out last week, the same day we talked. The show is loosely based on Buteau's memoir, Personal Essays, which she published back in 2020. It's about the size inclusive stylist who wants to change the fashion industry and not just for big girls. And she surrounds herself with friends, including friends in the transgender community that help her do that. I think it's a wonderful show. There's a series of shows right now that have a lot of political elements that aren't so obvious, but actually are about joy and friendship and community. I think it's just what we need around this time because they're also not silly and stupid. They're actually quite substantive. And this is one of those shows and it does make you feel better because everything Michelle does tends to do that. I want to talk with Michelle about her decades long career and how she thinks about representation in her work, the current political agenda that's set on dehumanizing people and what she's manifesting for the future. By the way, if you want to see someone I think is extremely funny and you're in New York on Monday, April 7, join me for a live taping of on with Kara Swisher with comedian Josh Johnson of the Daily show, one of my favorites and one of my son Louis favorites. Absolutely. The event is at Cooper Union's Great hall and it's free, but you do have to get tickets. Search for Cooper Union and Kara Swisher online to register. Okay, now let's get to Michelle Buteau. Our expert question today comes from her babes co star and good friend Ilana Glaser. It's going to be fun and thought provoking so stick around.
- [02:34]
Michelle Buteau
It is on.
- [02:38]
Dave (Google Gemini Team)
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- [03:10]
Unknown (20th Century Studios)
Episode is brought to you by 20th Century Studios. The Amateur when his wife is murdered, Charlie Heller, the CIA's most brilliant computer analyst must trek across the globe and use his only weapon, his intelligence, to hunt down her killers and enact revenge. Starring Academy Award winner Rami Malek and Academy Award nominee Laurence Fishburne. The Amateur rated PG13. Only in theaters April 11th.
- [03:39]
Michelle Buteau
PayPal lets you pay all your pals like your dinner dates.
- [03:42]
Ilana Glaser
How are we splitting the bill evenly?
- [03:45]
Michelle Buteau
Well, I only got soup.
- [03:47]
Kara Swisher
Let's Split it on PayPal based on what people ate.
- [03:49]
Michelle Buteau
Get started in the PayPal app. A PayPal account is required to send and receive money.
- [03:56]
Kara Swisher
Michelle Buteau, welcome. Thanks for being on.
- [03:59]
Michelle Buteau
On.
- [03:59]
Kara Swisher
I hear you were just in Australia filming your next movie. I was there too, just recently. How was the trip?
- [04:05]
Michelle Buteau
The trip was long. I felt like I was in a spaceship for a whole day. And then I was in the future and I didn't know who I was. And everyone kept telling me, tomorrow we have this wonderful thing called avocado toast. I'm like, yeah, I heard of it. Where do you guys live? Australia's interesting. And the running joke is that they're all convicts. I'm like, you guys gotta come up with another joke.
- [04:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, they're not all convicts, by the way. And they tell you really convict people? Yes. They're very particular about we're not the convict people. I'm like, I feel like those are people are dead. So I don't have a judgment going on there. What were you doing there? Talk a little bit about the trip.
- [04:36]
Michelle Buteau
It's beautiful. I was filming a movie called Spa Weekend, written and directed by John Lucas and Scott Moore, who also did Bad Moms. And I was filming with Leslie Mann, Isla Fisher and Anna Faris.
- [04:48]
Kara Swisher
Wow.
- [04:48]
Michelle Buteau
And me.
- [04:50]
Kara Swisher
That's a gang.
- [04:51]
Michelle Buteau
It was amazing.
- [04:52]
Kara Swisher
So it's a ladies. It's like White Lotus. Right. But funny, essentially, you know?
- [04:56]
Michelle Buteau
But funny.
- [04:57]
Unknown (PayPal)
Yes.
- [04:59]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah. It was a time. It was a masterclass. It was beautiful. I was pinching myself. I was like in my body and outside of my body. It was amazing. It was really amazing. And what I love about. I mean, I've been doing this for like 25 years. Right. I've been doing this since Taylor Swift had curly hair. That's how long I've been doing this. And to still do things that I am excited about, it feels like I'm starting all over again. It's like the first day of school is, like, really dope. Yeah.
- [05:27]
Kara Swisher
Well, that's fantastic. So you've been really busy for people to understand. We're recording this on the same day that season two of your Netflix show, which I love, Survival of the Thickest premieres. Congratulations. I think it's a wonderful.
- [05:38]
Michelle Buteau
Thank you. Did you watch it?
- [05:40]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I watched the first season and then they sent me early things. There's a series of series happening right now. Running Point is another one that I think are just lovely and they're fun and interesting and feature women. Different. Different. But the series is based on your book of personal essays that came out in 2020. Can you explain the show? You're Mavis Beaumont, an up and coming stylist. Talk to me a little bit about the show and how you conceived it.
- [06:05]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, for sure. It's so interesting that you mentioned Running Point because also co created by Mindy Kaelin. So, like, when you have women of color in positions of power, you know, to call the shots and to really, you know, as we say, put their foot in it and create something delicious, then it's only gonna sing. And so that's why diversity matters. That's why, you know, when you have a table, make sure that everybody gets a seat. But come to that table, some manners. Okay. Not Mindy. I'm just, you know, throwing strays to people who don't have manners. But. And that's the beautiful thing about working with Netflix too. It's like such an international platform. It isn't like the old school networks where you really have to fit a circle in a square. And it's just like my wife and kids and it's just giving. We subscribe to two genders. It's like, no life is wild and beautiful. And we have vocabulary to describe our feelings and our journeys in a way we never had before. And I love that Netflix is like, the more you do you, the more specific you are, the Better. It is. So I love that you said running Point, because one of my writer producers, Grace Edwards, who's amazing on my show, also worked on that show. And I'm just like, I love women of color. So I have been doing stand up for a long time. And most stand up comedians will tell you, I want to write a book. We don't know about what. We just, like, feel like it's on the list. Like, you want to go to the Montreal Festival, you want to do late night. You want to do a special. You want to do a half hour special, an hour special with, like, a maroon curtain behind you and, like, you know, just looking up at the crowd and waving and being just wearing, like, a black suit, you know, like, yeah, there's a journey. There's a journey, right? And there's like a list that every. But anyways, I wanted to write a book. I met a book agent, Robert Gunsler, who's working with Phoebe Robinson and Junior Charay, And I didn't understand what the idea was. I just was like, I have buckets of personality. I want to do something. And this is so long ago. And then I started my IVF journey, and I'm like, I'm busy. I don't have time to do this. And I was doing morning TV on VH1, and he kept checking in. He's like, what's the book? What's the book? At this point, I'm like, 20, 16, 17, 18. I'm like, I don't have time to write a book. Plus, who's gonna read it? And so I got into this. I guess it would be like imposter syndrome or something. I don't know what to call it. But I was doing that thing where I was telling myself no before other people told me no. And I was like, what's the point? Which is so, like, I think that's part of the process, and you should feel that. But, like, you gotta.
- [08:40]
Kara Swisher
A lot of people do that.
- [08:41]
Michelle Buteau
You gotta try. You know what I mean? You gotta try. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be done. And then when I finally was over this IVF journey and brought my twins home from the hospital, I'm like, I think I have time to write a book now that I have twins at home. What was I thinking, right? So I signed on, I tried, and I couldn't really get anything together. And I didn't know what I wanted to share. And I was either sharing too much or not enough. I'm like, is this funny? Is this Too emotional, too sincere. What's my place? What's my voice on paper? But I had all these stories through podcasting or storytelling shows that didn't fit into straight up standup, that I was like, these stories mean something and they're wild, but where do they go? And Phoebe Robinson gave me a great piece of advice when she was writing her book that she told me. And she didn't make it up, but someone told her, write, like everyone you know is dead.
- [09:34]
Kara Swisher
Mm.
- [09:35]
Michelle Buteau
I don't know. That worked for me. I was able to sort of get over my writer's block and just spaghetti theory that shit.
- [09:44]
Kara Swisher
How did it move into the show? Because you're not a stylist.
- [09:48]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, I mean, I was just like, get it done. I don't know who's gonna read it and who cares? You know, What I didn't realize is that, like, a lot of people were waiting for a lot of IP from me because I was pitching a lot of stuff, I was writing a lot of stuff. But I realized that I wasn't writing it in my voice. I was writing stuff for what I thought people wanted. And that's why I wasn't able to sell any of it. So when Kristin Zollner, an amazing executive that was at Netflix and now she's moved on to other stuff, she read it and she was like, this has to be a show. And this is even the name of the show. And I couldn't have imagined that that's how a show would get done. Cause I thought you'd do like a really strong standup set on Fallon.
- [10:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [10:33]
Michelle Buteau
You know, a la Roseanne Barr or Ellen, you know, and that's how you get your show. Or you just keep pitching and writing, or you go to a festival, but it's like, no pouring your heart and soul out in a bunch of essays about anything.
- [10:47]
Kara Swisher
You started your career in journalism and after 911 decided to pursue comedy. Explain to me what you're doing in this particular show. Is it. This is you, this character, but it happens to be a stylist. What's the sort of main themes from your perspective?
- [11:01]
Michelle Buteau
I thought being a stylist was such a great parallel to stand up comedy. You know, having parents from the Caribbean. They work so hard to give you everything and a good education. And when I told my parents I was doing standup, they're like, but you still have a job. Right. They couldn't wrap their mind around it. And I could see Mavis parents being like, people can dress themselves. What are you doing? And so There was that. And being a stylist is also one of these great artistic jobs in New York where you could make no money or make all the money. You could be in a back alley styling someone, or, like, in a penthouse, like, in two days. It's also one of those jobs, much like comedy, too, where you have to fight, you have to hustle, you have to listen to your inner voice, intuition's everything. You have to put yourself out there. And then also, I thought being a stylist was a great way to showcase the indiscrepancies in fashion. And, you know, and really being a stylist is serving the stories where everybody deserves to feel loved on and that we don't have to live up to some unrealistic, patriarchal standard of beauty. Like, even though we don't see ourselves in those magazines, we can see ourselves within each other. And so I thought fashion was a great way to do that, too. And then honestly, being a stylist, I was like, yeah, that's fun.
- [12:21]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, you can do that.
- [12:22]
Michelle Buteau
She's gotta wear really cute clothes, guys. We need a budget for the clothes.
- [12:26]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's funny. But what were you gonna do in journalism? What was your thought of why you wanted to do that?
- [12:32]
Michelle Buteau
Oh, my goodness. I really wanted to be an entertainment reporter. I want to be Mary Hart John Tesh. I want to wear a statement lip and have some shoulder pads and give you the news for a half hour after dinner. And that's what I really wanted to do, because my mom and I loved reading the Inquirer and just having tea time. And I went to school in Miami for TV production. And I remember we were going around the class, and my professor was like, what do you guys want to do with this degree? And I said, entertainment journalism and entertainment reporter. And he said, well, you're just simply too fat to be on camera. And I was so young. I was, like, 18 or 19. And I was taught to respect my elders and not question people, right? And so while I was, like, kind of embarrassed, I was also like, he's right. I don't see myself anywhere on tv. So I guess that's true and sort of accepted it and went into production. Cause I'm like, well, at least I still get to be a part of the process, right? But even editing people and film producing, I was so tired of telling basic people how to have fun. I'm like, where's your joy, bitch? Find it. Why are you here?
- [13:45]
Kara Swisher
But speaking about your childhood, in your book, you write about watching TV as a kid. And not seeing anyone, as you said, with your body shape, it happened way before that. You made the show. I think you were missing back then in a lot of ways. Despite the title Survival the Thickest, it's more than about survival. I mean, it's obviously a pun on survival of the fittest, but it's about the joy of being the thickest. And using thickest as a pun. Positive term. Right. For people who haven't seen it. Can you describe a scene where you feel like you really nailed that joy, or is it a more general vibe what you do and don't say?
- [14:19]
Michelle Buteau
I think it's more of a general vibe. You know, there's at no point where my character doesn't think she's sexy or worthy of love. You know, And I feel like, let's lead by example. You know, it's funny because in the pilot, when my character gets cheated on, she tells her best friend Khalil, like, how dare he leave me for, like, a skinny version of me? And a lot of people were like, uh, oh, here we go. Another big girl feeling sorry for herself. It's like, no, I. Like, she's sorry that this happened, and she's just stating what happened. But at no point does she think that her size is not beautiful. And that is the main takeaway.
- [15:01]
Kara Swisher
Please. Right. I think that was interesting. Cause you do exude that, like, I look great. I look sexy. Even the first scene with your boyfriend in the back when you're looking at clothes is like that. Which I was noticing. I was like, huh? You don't see that? It's usually the center of the top.
- [15:17]
Michelle Buteau
I'm so tired of that.
- [15:17]
Kara Swisher
I am, too. But. Although body positivity has been a thing for a while, but in the past year or so, obviously. And part of my next book is about some of these drugs, around weight loss, around psychedelics, a whole bunch of stuff about future tech, but no spoilers. But I did catch a hint of diss in season two when your characters say, look out, Oprah Gayle on the side of Ozempic. Did you ever want to use these things in the plot? Because it's called Survival at the Thickest and there are body issues in it. Although it's not the center of the plot, which I really appreciated, because, again, it could have gone that way.
- [15:50]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, I think enough people are talking about Ozempic. It was more just like. It was more just like a joke because it's so in the zeitgeist. You know what I mean? But there's a lot of like those little throwaways that, like, mean something, you know, like deep in the season, I think it's like episode seven or eight. Mavis gets into it with a fashion designer who has decided to just design skinny bodies. And I remember one of my improv lines that I fought to keep in there was like, leave dressing skinny white women to Kanye. That's his thing. And everyone's like, oh, we don't know about that. I'm like, I do.
- [16:28]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I do.
- [16:29]
Michelle Buteau
Leave it in there. You know, it says what it needs to say and we can move on.
- [16:32]
Kara Swisher
Perfect timing. Perfect timing now. I mean, he just continues to step in it, you know, we'll be back in a minute.
- [16:47]
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- [17:17]
Kara Swisher
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- [17:36]
Unknown (PayPal)
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- [17:39]
Kara Swisher
Find your road@enterprise mobility.com.
- [17:45]
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- [18:37]
Kara Swisher
This show is about flipping conversations about bodies, all shapes and sizes. You and Alana Glaser kind of did this last year with Babes, which. I love the movie.
- [18:45]
Michelle Buteau
Oh, thank you for watching.
- [18:46]
Kara Swisher
No, I know I talk to you a lot about it, but it's essentially about motherhood. But you push back against reviews that called it raunch. There was a lot of discussion about body sex and bodily fluids and stuff like that. A lot of shows are starting to enter that with women very explicitly talking about it. And I guess in some weird way, Sex and the City did it, but they did it in a clean, white lady way, I guess. I don't know what else to say.
- [19:07]
Michelle Buteau
But, yeah, fancy way.
- [19:09]
Kara Swisher
Fancy way. Talk a little bit about that idea. I didn't think it was raunchy, but I could see why people did at the same time, if I could. You know, I try hard to be like, huh? Why do they think that?
- [19:19]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, Alana and I were talking about this too. It's so crazy, because we were just like, how is this raunchy when it's just the female truth? But we realize that females aren't allowed to say things. Don't complain. Don't talk about your body. Be sexy. Not too sexy. Be smart, but not too smart. You know, have an opinion, but don't keep talking. And so it's just like, we're constantly figuring out how to take our space up, whether it's in a room or, like, on the subway. And I'm really kind of tired of it. Like, I'm not really kind of tired. I'm actually exhausted. Like, I have been tap dancing for the patriarchy way too long, you know? And we keep talking about a boys club and this, that, and the third. I'm just like, what about the gays and the theys? You know, getting back to the whole, like, Mavis is not gonna apologize for being big and being loved on. I have so much in common. When I talk to gay men and they talk about, like, being in high school and the guys that, like, always really loved him, but we were always a secret, and it's just like, we're not a secret anymore. Right. To say we're a secret is to say something's wrong with us.
- [20:19]
Kara Swisher
Right?
- [20:20]
Michelle Buteau
And I think also for women, especially since, like, our bodies are under attack, like, we are literally fighting to make decisions about our own holes. Insane. I can't. Oh, my God. Mitch McConnell and his three chins. Let's just move on. I don't want to body shame his face. But look.
- [20:39]
Kara Swisher
Go ahead, Go ahead.
- [20:41]
Michelle Buteau
But look. Yeah, and it's just like, I don't even feel comfortable having this conversation with my doctor. What? That's crazy. And I and bending over backwards, killing myself to have health insurance, which is like a luxury in America. And when I even show up, I have to make my male doctor feel comfortable, which is what I love about those scenes that Alana and Josh wrote in Babes. It's like, even though we are in our most vulnerable positions, legs up, scoot down. Why am I scooting down? Why is there even a chair? Do you know what I mean? I still have to make you.
- [21:13]
Kara Swisher
Oh, I've been there.
- [21:13]
Michelle Buteau
And your hair transplant come to. It's like so insane and so feel better, you know, I do feel like arts, film, tv, music and change. You can move the needle. It is culture. You can have a conversation.
- [21:27]
Kara Swisher
You know, it actually reminds me, it's interesting you talk about that. When I was pregnant, I have a female gynecologist, and she was away, and so someone had to check me at the very last parts of my pregnancy. And it was a guy. It was a guy. It was a male doctor. And some male doctors are great. I wouldn't pune all male doctors, but he did the checkup and he was rough. He was rough and he made me bleed right at the end of my pregnancy, right when he was doing it. And I said, what in the actual fuck? Like in the room? And he didn't say, sorry. And of course you're demented at the end of your pregnancy because you think everything's gonna go wrong, right?
- [22:00]
Michelle Buteau
I know.
- [22:01]
Kara Swisher
So I said, you and your fucking manhands. And I go. He goes, what? And I said, your man hands make me bleed. Do not have your man hands. Maybe never do that to a woman. And he was like, shocked. And I was like, manhands. He goes, I don't have man hands. I go, manhands. And this was like, it felt like Larry David episode or something. But Babes is actually a story about friendship. There is a lot of. There's not raunchy. That's not the right word. It's just explicit, I guess. And you talk about things women actually talk about. But you have a long standing friendship with Alana in your real Life. You spent 20 years working in comedy before landing. You know, you're an overnight sensation after 20 years. Before landing your first special, you were on the road with a lot of big name comedians. Amy Schumer, Hannibal Buress, Camille Nanjani, who's a lovely guy. Name a few. How do these relationships affect you? Did their work influence you? You write about A fellow comic stealing your stuff, which I think is common. It might have been Camille, actually. I don't know who it was, but I'm teasing you.
- [22:59]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah. Wait, can I just get back to Manhands for two seconds?
- [23:03]
Kara Swisher
Sure, sure.
- [23:05]
Michelle Buteau
Because I, you know, I wasn't able to carry, so we had a surrogate and so it felt so. I felt so outside of my body, like, because surrogacy was illegal, illegal in New York. So we went to the closest state, which was Pennsylvania. These surrogates are like walking angels on earth.
- [23:20]
Kara Swisher
They are.
- [23:21]
Michelle Buteau
And I remember she had to go to another doctor at the end and she started to bleed because he was rough. And she was carrying my twins and looked super tender. And so I remember this took me back. Cause I remember her crying on the phone and I was just. It felt like someone just lit me up. I wanted to run to Pennsylvania at that moment.
- [23:41]
Kara Swisher
Go and get him.
- [23:42]
Michelle Buteau
It was like a Costco sized serving of road rage.
- [23:45]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [23:45]
Michelle Buteau
Just to. You know what I mean? And I feel like no matter what, life and the universe is always telling me to share your space, share your heart, and defend people when they need it the most. And you know, if anything, being the only child and going to so many schools has taught me to collaborate well. Listen to people, be a team player. It isn't all about me. We can work better together. We're stronger together. Recognize when someone doesn't have your back and move on. Don't try to convince a bad person that you're a good person. Because I used to be like, no, no, no, we could do this. No, no, no, we could do this. And I'm just like, why am I so upset? And so saying the man hands of it all, I was like, I. I mean, I really found my inner Karen, you know? And then I stomped with Andy Cohen in New York to overturn gestational surroundings.
- [24:37]
Kara Swisher
I didn't believe when you just said it was illegal. I was like, what? Like, what are you talking about?
- [24:42]
Michelle Buteau
And even the reasons that. Because we talked to a bunch of officials and even the reasons that they were talking about, like, but is it sex work? And it's just like sex isn't even involved. Like, why are you sexualizing everything? How come, like, alternative family planning is not a priority on your list? Everyone deserves love. And this is like also the themes in my show. Everyone deserves love. It doesn't matter what they look like or how they identify, you know, it's called humanity, bitch. Look at the fuck up. Like, what are we talking about? And so like, it was so crazy and beautiful and like just heart wrenching. Meeting cancer survivors who were able to like save their eggs. Cause they want to, you know, they knew that they wanted to start a family and they knew that they were gonna survive cancer. How are you to say to them, no, like, what are you even. So all this to say Manhands not into it. In fact, I mean, I.
- [25:33]
Kara Swisher
It should be the name of your next book if you want, but tell me about your colleagues. When you're on the road with colleagues.
- [25:39]
Michelle Buteau
Oh my goodness. You know that saying, you are the company you keep. I do think it's the same in comedy. What I love about comedy is like, it's such a Motley Crue. It's such a ragtag of like fuckery. And you're really forced to be in a space with someone that you ordinarily would never. And the common theme is how do we make shit funny? We've all been through a lot. Everyone's been through a lot. But we recognize it and we talk about it, you know, and we just see the world a different way. And so I actually miss. I miss going to comedy clubs and hanging out with people. But I don't miss late nights. Cause I want to be in my bed at 9:30. Did I answer your question? I don't even know.
- [26:21]
Kara Swisher
Yes, it's fine. But this actually works perfectly into this question. Every week we get a question from an outside expert. We have a special one for you.
- [26:28]
Ilana Glaser
Oh, hi there. Alana Glaser here with a question for Michelle Buteau. Michelle, I am privileged to be close to you and to be friends with you for many, many, many years. And I've watched you always bring so much energy and life and juice and sauce to every room you walk into. Things have been very full for you from putting out your standup special. As the first woman to film a standup special on Radio City Music hall, putting out the second season of Survival of the Thickest, which worked so hard to do from the inside out. And you just finished filming a movie overseas. What is a moment you remember from being a kid or a teenager that connects to this moment of fullness for you? Sending you love, Love you. You're both my heroes.
- [27:22]
Michelle Buteau
What in the this Is yous Life Is Going On.
- [27:24]
Kara Swisher
I know this is it. So that's a great question.
- [27:28]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah. This is so ridiculous. But Maybe I was 7 or 8 and I lived in a cul de sac in Jersey and instead of just drawing, I made like a little magazine. Cause I found the stapler and I was like, oh, I could put it together. And then I decided to make a bunch of magazines, and I called it Head Over Heels. And I had, like, a severed head and a shoe. And I was very literal. And then, like, I would kind of write stories about all the happenings on the cul de sac. Like, so and so's dog pooped. So and so's like, doing their pullover. And I would put it in everybody's mailbox.
- [28:12]
Kara Swisher
Wow.
- [28:12]
Michelle Buteau
And at one point, the neighbors asked my parents for me to stop putting stuff in their mailbox. But I just remember thinking, this is so fun. I didn't understand what community organizing was then, but I was like, I'm gonna bring everyone together, and this is gonna be really fun, and I get to be artistic. And then also, I was rejected, and I was like, okay, got it. You don't wanna hear from me. That's weird. That's such, like, a moment for, like, what this career is, right?
- [28:49]
Kara Swisher
I'm gonna keep putting stuff in your mailbox.
- [28:51]
Michelle Buteau
Like, you put your heart and soul out there. And someone's like, I don't know. Not for me. It's like, you can't even appreciate the thing I made. He's very mother in law at Thanksgiving. It's like, but taste it, you know?
- [29:07]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Wow. How dare you? Did you continue? Did you keep going?
- [29:10]
Michelle Buteau
No, I moved on. And this is also telling. I was, like, head over heels.
- [29:14]
Kara Swisher
Was.
- [29:14]
Michelle Buteau
Had one issue, you know, I think around college, I came up with this, like, mantra for myself, and it was dating, but it actually applies to the industry. If you don't want to hear from me, you're going to hear about me. But. And so I moved on, and I started the Pound Puppy Cabbage Patch Kid Club, and I invited four or five girls.
- [29:34]
Kara Swisher
Oh, that's a position of power to come over. And it's interesting because community is. It's about community, I think is what you're talking about is a major theme in survival the Thickest as well. And season two, you lean into your character's connections with the transgender community. It's not overtly political, but it is. Talk a little about the community because this came up in your Netflix specials. Stand up special at Radio City Music Hall, Beautiful Mind. You tell a joke about beautiful black lesbian friend. Everybody laughs. And then you go meta and reflect on making that joke. I wanna play the clip first, and then I want you to reflect on it.
- [30:04]
Michelle Buteau
Okay. We could tell jokes and stories and not disparage a whole community. We can do that. We can make it funny. We just have to work at it, right? So if you guys ever run into Dave Chappelle, can you let him know that shit? I don't think he know that shit. I don't think we'll ever run into Dave, though. Cause he is the goat and he is the goat. If that means going off about trans people, Dave, it's not funny. It's dangerous. Make it funny, that's all. I can't believe somebody would make millions and millions of dollars for making people feel unsafe. That is so wild to me. Like, truly, I'm manifesting this shit tonight. This is a Radio City Music hall takeover. And I'm gonna tell everybody I wanna make millions and millions of dollars for making people feel safe, seen, secure, heard and entertained.
- [31:13]
Kara Swisher
You know, you're making a really salient point here. I went off on Netflix on Chappelle only because I was like, it's not funny. Like, it's also an hour of not funny. He had a bit about lesbians, also wasn't funny. But I was like, I'm up for lesbian jokes. If they're good, they're good. I'm willing to listen to him. I'm not overly sensitive. Talk about that idea of what you're doing there and you're doing it on the show again. And actually you're not just calling out Chappelle, you're making the point about what's funny and what makes money. Talk a little bit about what you were doing here.
- [31:46]
Michelle Buteau
I feel like once you're given the opportunity to speak your mind on a platform, then be responsible and do that. And so I can show up and be funny and write jokes and not offend or. But it's not about that. It's about making people think, have some thought provoking, anything. And I really had to say something because it is dangerous and people are being rewarded for that. And I'm just like. And the Internet really tried to hand my ass back to me, you know? And it's like. And the same parallel with this administration. It's just like, why do you get to say the most egregious shit? But I can't put my hand up and say, I do not agree.
- [32:36]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [32:37]
Michelle Buteau
That's dangerous too. Why would you punch down on a marginalized community constantly? That's not fun. That's not even how comedy really works. And so a lot of these comedians who are just like, you can't say anything anymore. You can just make it funny. Put the work in, you can do it. You've done it before, by the way. Y'all were woke 20, 25 years ago. Don't forget that. I think it's really egregious to say these horrible things. Not just a lot of, like, it's okay to say these really egregious things about people who cannot defend themselves, people who are trying to live their life. Stand in your truth, and you have the government saying you don't exist and you shouldn't exist. That's insane.
- [33:24]
Kara Swisher
This is where it leads.
- [33:25]
Michelle Buteau
And culture makes a difference. Look at Kendrick Lamar's halftime show. Okay? You can do that. I'm not saying everybody's gotta stand on business and be political all the time, but if you're gonna say something, at least make it funny or entertainment, you know, because these people are, like, really rich, and they get to say whatever they wanna say. Then they go on their private jets and they talk to who they're gonna talk to, and they have. Yes. People around them, and everybody works for them, and they go home and they're safe. No, we have to be out in the world. We have to walk down that street and get ourselves home. We have to be on the subway, you know, and people are, like, looking up to these people and listening to them, whether they're a politician or musician or a comedian. And so I.
- [34:14]
Kara Swisher
And you went the other way in survival, where you really integrated in the trans. You integrated them into the show, which was interesting when you just.
- [34:23]
Michelle Buteau
But it's not. To me, it's not integration.
- [34:25]
Kara Swisher
It's just your life.
- [34:26]
Michelle Buteau
It's life. Yeah, it's life. You know, I told Netflix from Jump, I want to show my version of New York City. And this is my. You know, like, I grew up in New York city in my 20s and my 30s, and now it's just like, I love sex in the city. I love friends. I love. But I'm just like, y'all don't have one Puerto Rican friend, and y'all live in New York City. That's crazy. Not one black friend, not one gay friend. What is going on? So, like. Yeah, I. I'm like, we're not going to a diner. We're going to the drag bar.
- [34:53]
Kara Swisher
Right, right.
- [34:53]
Michelle Buteau
That's. That's where we met up.
- [34:55]
Kara Swisher
Did you worry at all in both those instances about calling out someone as powerful as Dave Chappelle, given the political environment? You said the Internet handed it back to you.
- [35:04]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out my relationship with social media.
- [35:08]
Kara Swisher
Ignore it. You know, it's the loudest people in the room. It's not reality.
- [35:15]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah. And because there's, like, so many sick people in my family, I know that we're not promised tomorrow. And so I'm just like, I am who I am. I'm gonna stand on business. It's gonna be hard. It hurts my feelings. I move on. It doesn't determine my worth or happiness. And I'm doing it for those people that need it, you know, because I like that one voice, like, matters. You know what I mean? Like, if I can make someone feel better, seen, then that's all that matters. And, you know, the DMs that people send me or the stories that they tell to my bloated, freckled face at 4am in the airport, I do appreciate.
- [35:59]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, me too. There's another moment in a special where you tell a story about being high and your husband dragging you to a reptile exhibit where you have a special encounter with a bearded dragon and a Maga lady. You really don't. You go right in there. Let's listen to this.
- [36:14]
Michelle Buteau
And the tour guide was, like, so happy. He's like, she never does this. She trusts you. She loves you. And I was like, she sure do. But honestly, right now, it's giving they them just being on the real real. And then I heard a voice in the pack of camouflage saying, oh, you one of them woke ones. And so, you know, I'm a little high. And I go, what'd you say? I couldn't hear you through your four good teeth. Don't come for me unless I send for you, bitch. See, I wanna be nice, girl. I wanna be nice. But, you know, people don't think that I can be mean because it is giving jolly, you know, back fat freckles, you know what I mean?
- [37:08]
Kara Swisher
But, like, it was still a good thing.
- [37:09]
Michelle Buteau
Don't do it.
- [37:10]
Kara Swisher
Talk about what happened next. Cause your husband takes a step back and you get serious. Talk about what happened next.
- [37:16]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, it's so wild. Like, you know, it's so wild when you feel like you're an adult and, you know, you know how to protect your peace. And you're not gonna, like, you know, participate in road rage, but some people just push your button. Sometimes they get the right moment, the perfect storm. But no George Clooney, right? And I got, like, the Jersey mall parking lot in the back of my throat, and I'm just like, are we doing this? Am I a DMX song? Are you really coming for me? But it was bigger picture. Cause I knew exactly. It's just, like, woke.
- [37:45]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [37:45]
Michelle Buteau
Okay. It really felt like I Was on a Megyn Kelly podcast. I was like, let me just tell you something. And like, I can't even, like, you know, I can't even imagine what it would be like as a non binary or trans person trying to defend yourself to somebody. Like that is so insane. Because I'm lit up. I'm lit up. And as a straight woman, I'm lit up and I'm like, what is happening? And so look, do I think it made a difference in her life? I don't know, but I know I feel better about it and I wrote a joke about it. But yeah, yeah, sometimes you just gotta say the thing and know when to walk away.
- [38:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I didn't mind it at all.
- [38:24]
Michelle Buteau
And what I do too is wear the outfit the next day. Cause I need like a better memory in the outfit. And so I do that. Cause it's like, how dare you make me wear this shirt?
- [38:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I just had a debate with Scott Gallery on my podcast about whether you can say things to cybertruck owners. I'm like, yes, you can. They bought it. They made a choice. And he's like, you should be civil. I said, only white guys can talk about civility. Gay people, people of color don't have that. Have been beat upon for years. And maybe they go too far and maybe they push too hard, but it's because after years of people saying shit to your face constantly. And I was like, and sometimes you just, you've had it. You've had it. And you may be censorious, but they actually do the thing. You may be irritating. The left may be irritating, but the right actually does something about it, like banning books or taking words out. I said, the people taking words out are actually the Trump administration out of government. I was like, left wing people are irritating at the worst and they actually make things happen. So I was like, I think I'd feel good pushing back. The opposite of DEI is it's diversity, equity, inclusion is homogeneity, inequality and exclusion. So I was like, I'm for dei then.
- [39:34]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah. When I see that, I'm just like, okay, I get to have a show. It's going to be the biggest, the blackest, the queerest, the baddest, the sexiest shit you have ever seen. Cuz everything is feeling like a takeover.
- [39:47]
Kara Swisher
Which Chappelle did originally, didn't he? He really did originally with his show, did that, that very thing. The interaction feels very real. And obviously the situation has gotten a lot worse for trans people recently. I interviewed Laverne Cox earlier this year Right before her prime show, Clean Slate came out, she was talking about how to push back against fascism. The politics of cruelty we're seeing right now. Let's listen what she said.
- [40:09]
Laverne Cox
For me, it's about humanizing people. It's about a rehumanizing process. If we start to look at this, at all of our politics and the lens of dehumanization versus rehumanization, how do we humanize individuals and people and change the language from culture war to human rights and civil rights, then we can start to frame these issues on our terms and on the terms around truth.
- [40:36]
Kara Swisher
So does it resonate you like to say that is someone's child? Why do you think it's hard for most people to think start from that perspective?
- [40:49]
Michelle Buteau
I think it's because so many, I don't want to generalize, but a lot of white Americans just like saying Americans because I know some Europeans too. But let's just say that never have to think outside of themselves. They never have to think outside of their five block radius. And they will always be protected in social situations without anyone even knowing the moment before they are protected. Whether it's in a kindergarten class, whether it's on a football field, whether it's late at night, whatever it is, they are always protected. Excuse me, so sorry. I'm allergic to racism.
- [41:35]
Kara Swisher
You okay?
- [41:36]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, I have allergies. It's called Fox and Friends.
- [41:38]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah.
- [41:39]
Michelle Buteau
But yeah, it's sort of like it's this thing where you've never had to think about anybody else. And so for someone like me, a little light skinned, thick Caribbean gal in central Jersey going to an all white school, I've had to think about me. I've had to think about my family that is darker than me. I've had to think about my Chinese and Indian family and I've had to figure out how to like move in a white space since I was like in first grade and sort of explain why my hair does this. I have vocabulary about hair density at 7 and 8. You know, it was so important to me to, in season one, episode five to put in the show the first time I was called the N word because that is a story that so many people can relate to.
- [42:25]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [42:25]
Michelle Buteau
And everyone's got that story. And you definitely lose your innocence. You know, a lot of white kids lose their innocence when they find out Santa's not real.
- [42:36]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [42:36]
Michelle Buteau
But what about the little Afro, Latina and black and brown kids that lose their innocence when they've been called a nigger on the playground, when they're five or six. And so it is, it's not a shared experience, but we can, and I like to over communicate, we can talk about it and you know, and if you're open to it, we can understand each other.
- [42:58]
Kara Swisher
One of the things someone asked me why social media, for example, is so is such a difficult place for a lot of people and why there's so much ugliness in it. And I said because the people who designed it never felt unsafe a day in their lives because they don't understand lack of safety, because they don't experience it. We'll be back in a minute.
- [43:25]
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- [44:45]
Kara Swisher
You've talked about how Netflix was supporting shows that have their own voice. Of course they do it also difficult voices like Chappelle, which I do appreciate in a lot of ways. So do you think the current climate will change? What kind of shows get greenlit? You know, I was just, I was at this event last night and some of the people from SF Pride came up to me and they said, you know, all the corporate sponsors are pulling out right now because of the Trump administration. Are you seeing that at all? And after Trump was first elect, a lot of people in Hollywood did speak out, but we haven't seen as much this time around. There's a lot of jokes, I know, but I do think there's a definite Pullback. And I was just reflecting on this Atlantic story where they're really pushing the Trump administration on this signal thing. Lorraine Powell Jobs is the only billionaire owner who is just not backing down. Right. And of course, as a woman, but it's like, do you see that happening? Are you afraid of it having an impact on your career?
- [45:41]
Michelle Buteau
I can't say that I see a difference because it's always been hard. It's just always been hard trying to get shit greenlit, period. But I really hope not. I really hope Netflix is like, no, we are international. We are behind every voice, you know, for better or for worse, whatever that means. And so I really hope not. And this is the beauty of standup. Cause it's like, no matter what, like, I always have the power to do what I want to do and say what I want to say now, you know, depending on, like, what platform, like, will have me. But I'm just like. I don't even want to speak it into existence because I'm scared. I'm really scared.
- [46:23]
Kara Swisher
Does that make for you to edit yourself?
- [46:25]
Michelle Buteau
Absolutely not. I'm not working from a place of fear. Fuck that. No. If. No. No. I've worked too hard on myself and in my. No. And it's too important. No. No. Edit yourself. No. No. So many people edit themselves and they do what they think they should be doing, and then they beat themselves up when it doesn't go through, you know, when it doesn't get a second season or get greenlit. Da, da, da, da. And it's just like, no, I need to sleep at night. And if I'm not doing what I know I need to do, what my intuition tells me I need to do, then I'm not gonna sleep. So. No. Working from a place of fear is. Don't do. If you're an artist, like, get over that shit real quick.
- [47:12]
Kara Swisher
So I wanna finish up talking about your business. You've been building your career and brand for 20 years. You're an actress, producer, writer, standup comic, podcast host, TV host. You're on Barbecue Showdown, which I didn't know. It's a true multi hyphenate. And thank God you did that last one at this part. How do you decide what to take now? Cause I get that I do a lot of things myself, but what are you interested in? What's your criteria right now when you're picking? Because now you have choices. Right now you have choices.
- [47:38]
Michelle Buteau
Yeah, it's also like, how long am I gonna be away from my family? Cause I don't like that. So I'm like, then you need to.
- [47:47]
Kara Swisher
Be in bed at 9:30.
- [47:48]
Michelle Buteau
But also like, how can I make the most money in the shortest amount of time and feel inspired? I love connection. And so what I loved about barbecue showdown, it's like, you know, you see barbecue, but once you get in there with the pits, it's like people are reclaiming their ancestors stories through a recipe. You know, this guy that won firin in season two, I've never met like a black man from Appalachia. And the first time he had barbecue, his mom was so poor, she found a discarded refrigerator and learned how to smoke meat in it. What? You know, and everyone. And like even this chick Michelle that was in season two, like she started barbecuing because her father passed away and it was her and her sisters and every Sunday he would barbecue and they missed him and they missed the Sunday barbecue. So she taught herself how to barbecue. And it's just all these stories. So anyways, all that's to say connection, like if I can be sassy and friendly and a little shady, then that's like my sweet spot.
- [49:00]
Kara Swisher
You are now executive producer of your standups and TV show. How much creative control do you. As you were saying, you'll do what you want to do. How much do you get involved with everything else? Where do you, what don't you want to do and why do you want to. I think about this all the time, what I want and don't want to do. And I think the most powerful moment in my career came when I walk away from stuff or I say I don't want to do that. And I started being more successful when I got selfish. I use the word selfish in a different way where I'm not going to do that. How do you think about your career?
- [49:32]
Michelle Buteau
That's so funny.
- [49:32]
Kara Swisher
Especially as a woman and a woman of color, you know, because you don't have as many choices, neither do I. It's sort of a continuum of choices that people get in life.
- [49:42]
Michelle Buteau
That's so interesting. So there's nothing that I don't want to do when it comes to, to my shit. So being selfish for me is putting my foot in it and doing all of it. I wanna be a part of all those conversations. I wanna be a part of all those meetings. I wanna see how people are talking about, you know, black, brown and queer background, hair and makeup department. I wanna be a part of all of it. And I think especially running two seasons of my own show, which is like so amazing, right? I love Being in the rooms. Because, like, working with people, they always say, but they want. They want. It's just like, okay, we are the they. So start saying we. What do we want? What do we want to do? And so, you know, the thing I won't do for sure is try to make other people happy.
- [50:39]
Kara Swisher
Mm.
- [50:40]
Michelle Buteau
Especially when people are saying, we want you to be happy. I'm like, do you? Then this would make me happy. If I can't do that, how do we, like, you know, come to some sort of, like, happy medium? But. And if people are just like, oh, I don't get it, or that's not funny. It's just like, oh, my God. Okay, then it's my job to figure out, you know, how to make it funny and for you to get. So I don't mind taking notes and going back to the drawing board because, you know, it's not personal. It's like, you know, it's a living organism, is always gonna, like, change and grow and all that stuff. But, like, for me, I wanna be in it. I wanna know. I wanna know who you are and what you think, and I wanna be a part of the process. So being selfish for me is like getting up in it. Because people are so different when you're not in the room, you know? And I'm like, what do y'all really think?
- [51:30]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, absolutely. Wouldn't it be great to be able to read people's minds just for, you know, an hour? Not long? Because then you'd go crazy. But. So my last question. You talk about manifesting the reality you want right now. That's what you're talking about. Is there a new role, new title you'd like to add? What interests you right now? It feels like you'd be a great late night host. Although that might be not. That's not really the journey for people anymore because those ratings are going down, for example.
- [51:55]
Unknown (20th Century Studios)
Yeah.
- [51:56]
Kara Swisher
So what are you finding interesting right now?
- [52:01]
Michelle Buteau
Oh, my goodness. I just sort of had this conversation with one of my really good friends last night. A title like late night or talk show host, like daytime talk show host or movie star. I feel like that shit's limiting. And by saying movie star, then I'm, like, giving my power over to, like, a few hundred people that make movies. And it's just like, fuck that. You know, I can make a movie too. So I just feel like, for me, the thing I want to do is be working, is to be an artist, to create, to executive produce my own shit, to give people a voice to tell their stories, to uplift people, to change their resume, to make sure that people who have not had access to things, have them, get them in the room, give them confidence to believe that they can do it. And while I'm also. Hello. Making money, too. Let's go. You know, to really create some generational wealth so we can have some generational health period. So there isn't one title because the title is Michelle Buteau. Hello.
- [53:07]
Kara Swisher
I like that. Yeah, the title is Michelle Buteau.
- [53:11]
Michelle Buteau
That's the name of the episode.
- [53:13]
Kara Swisher
I'm gonna leave it at that.
- [53:14]
Michelle Buteau
Dope.
- [53:15]
Kara Swisher
Thank you so much.
- [53:16]
Michelle Buteau
Thank you. It was so nice meeting you.
- [53:19]
Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor, Russell, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan, Megan Cunane, and Caitlin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan, Fernando Arruda, and Aaliyah Jackson, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are not tap dancing for the patriarchy. If not, go check out barbecue showdown. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. And make sure you're following on with Kara Swisher on Instagram, TikTok, Blue sky, and threats not on X. Sorry, Elon. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.