← On with Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher
Miranda Is Not the Villain, with The Devil Wears Prada 2’s Writer & Director
01:00:35
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- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
I've been wearing the same clothes since 4 years old, so you're welcome.
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Unknown Male Speaker / Possibly Podcast Host or Announcer
It's on.
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Kara Swisher
Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guests today are Aline Brosh McKenna and David Frankel, the writer and director of The Devil Wears Prada 2. I'm actually in the film in a cameo playing, of course, myself, and I can honestly say it's as good or even better than the original. And that's saying a lot because the original set the bar so high. 20 years after Andy walked away from working with Miranda Priestley, the media landscape has changed completely. Brosh, McKenna and Frankel have managed to capture the sometimes bleak reality of journalism today and still make a film that's incredibly funny and it's also beautiful visually and it's just a lot of fun. But there's some very deep moments here and that's why I'm excited to talk to them. They have managed to capture the real decimation of the media. At the same time they talk about why creativity is still important and why standards matter. Our expert questions come from journalist and author Amy LaRocca and Lindsay Peoples, the editor in chief of the Cut. So stick around.
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Foreign.
- [01:36]
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Kara Swisher
It is on Aline and David, thank you for coming on on.
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Aline Brosh McKenna
We're happy to be here.
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David Frankel
Great to be here.
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Kara Swisher
So the reaction to devil wears Prada 2 has been overwhelmingly positive. Congratulations. The New Yorker called it a savvy, shiny reflection of our era. The Guardian called it good natured, buoyant. Entertainment and entertainment writer Louis Peetzman said the movie is legitimately great, not just another soulless legacy sequel. Sequels are often treated with suspicion, especially when the original is a cultural phenomenon. Fans have developed a strong emotional attachment to it. So talk about the sort of anxieties you had leading to it coming out. Let's hear from David and then Aline.
- [04:26]
David Frankel
Well, the anxieties persisted till this morning. We really resisted the idea. We mistrusted any kind of legacy sequel ourselves. So when the topic first came up in the immediate wake of the first movie's release, we resisted it. And we resisted it for 18 years. And it wasn't until a couple of years ago when the conversation turned to, should we consider this yet again? And Aline had this notion that, wow, the world's really changed around these characters and maybe there's something to explore here.
- [05:07]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah, the spark for me was that so many people who are prominent in the business world, in all these businesses had sort of gotten, you know, turned upside down and their reputations were, you know, damaged or impaired or challenged, you know, with the Internet and so much conversation about I couldn't have named that many CEOs 10, 20 years ago, but now we're really intimately familiar with these folks. And so there was this little notion of, like, what if Miranda got in trouble and Andy was the person who could help her? And that seemed like, like an interesting little notion that we started playing with. And then I, you know, our process is I pepper David with annoying emails and until he got vaguely interested. And then we found out that Meryl was interested in hearing what we had to say. So I went out to New York. And we went down and hung out with her. You know, David will tell you, her belief in the first movie. Meryl's belief in these two movies has really buoyed us in times when we felt nervous.
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Kara Swisher
So what was the thing that pushed it over for each of you and Meryl? I guess. What was that, David?
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David Frankel
Just the. I think the license for us to pursue it from Meryl was key. And then once we got into it, it became very exciting. I mean, Aline had a lot of ideas, and I kibitzed a little. And we arrived at a narrative which combined what I loved about the first movie, which is a frothy exploration and wildly entertaining and very funny exploration of the fashion journalism world and the fashion world at large. But with asking some fundamental universal questions about, in the case of the first movie, you know, what it is to be a young person and be figuring out who you are and finding out where the ethical and moral lines you draw exist. And in the second movie, figuring out what it means to be somebody who's in their 40s and struggling to survive or someone who's. Someone who's running the thing and struggling to survive. That layer of infrastructure gave it, you know, some heft to us and meant that it could really resonate.
- [07:24]
Kara Swisher
One of the things that I found interesting about the movie was the first movie was about learning to have a life despite intensity of work or learning to pull away from work. This is about loving your job to me. She says it very explicitly. Aline. Correct. You have her say it?
- [07:41]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah. Meryl says it towards the end of the movie. But you feel it from Andy from the beginning. And I think, you know, that was the first movie you see her realign her priorities and realize that she really wants to be a journalist. But the problem with that is that journalism as a way to make a living has really is petering out. And so I was always thinking about her as this was happening, that she would be in somewhat diminished circumstances. And then the world she came from, which had been so big, shiny and kind of flossy in the first movie, that was also undergoing this kind of seismic shift. So, in a way, she and Miranda were gonna be found. They, you know, it's. The movie starts with a crisis for both of them which brings them together. And that was the very first idea that we had. And then what's different about this movie is often, in terms of a sequel is often the studio is the one who calls you and says, hey, we were thinking of a sequel, and blah, blah, blah. But this Wasn't that this was the filmmakers. David and I then going to our acting team head by Meryl and saying, hey, what do you think of this idea? So we brought it to the studio. We were the ones who said, what do you guys think of this? And then we were lucky enough that the new president of the studio had only been there for 10 days. David Greenbaum. He just loved those ideas. The idea that these two people who have a history need each other and that they're both sort of, you know. Yeah, they get pulled back together.
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Kara Swisher
Yeah, they're in the same situation. So, David, you've said that movies these days, quote, have to be events. The only way to make a hit movie is somehow to make it really important. Now you've managed to do that. This thing has been marketed within an inch of its life in also very fun way. But something gets lost when every theatrical release has to justify itself as a cultural event. This is an easy one to do that. Could a mid budget film like the original Devil Wears Prada get greenlit today from your perspective?
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David Frankel
I feel like the original Devil Wears Prada may still have succeeded even today. You would have had. Might have had the same opportunity to break through and connect with the audience. I mean, the themes and the movie itself, I think is very appealing. And I think movies for women in general get undervalued and women, you know, movies starring women especially. And, you know, it even. It falls. It gets called a rom com. It's not even technically, you know, it's not a rom com, you know, so I don't know you. I was elated to see original movies breaking through last year. You know, one battle after another and Sinners and weapons. So I, I think, I really think it's. If the. There's a great movie, people will come out to see it.
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Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah. And we had the book. We had a. The first time. And that was what sort of got us through the process was the hit book. But, you know, I wonder now if it would be a streamer. That would be. The debate was like, would it go straight to streaming? You know, would it be a theatrical release? Because that's really the bar now is like, can something earn its keep as a theatrical release? But I almost named my company Big surprise because everything that's geared towards women is just always like, big surprise, you know, big headlines. Big surprise, Big surprise. Women want to see Mamma Mia. Women want to see, you know, rom com with Sydney Sweeney. It's just always. Everyone's always like falling over, chocked.
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Kara Swisher
Right, Exactly. I Mean, you bring up original films, which I think is interesting, like sinners in one battle after another. And I'd love you each to talk about this idea of originality. Because one of the themes I'm talking about, in fact I talked about it on stage the other day, was it's really astonishing how people are really reacting against an AI kind of mentality, which is a facsimile, that people's sort of sense isn't the same and are really drawn towards originals in some fashion. Aline, why don't you start first and then. David?
- [11:43]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a knowing these characters already and having a relationship with them that the audience has. I think you're right. Like, people are craving things that feel real, authentic, and that they can sort of touch and feel. And they know these characters, they know these actors. And we have that sense that this was gonna happen. Cause we got out on the street and people were like running and screaming and screaming the characters names. And like, it was pandemonium when we were shooting. And I think it's that in person thing. And I remember I was talking to one of the costume assistants and I said, what is going on? Like, why are people running out to see just like, you know, Anne cross the street? And he's like, people are craving real stuff. Like, real. It's like the rise of live events, right? Like, people wanna see something, touch something in person. And so that's why this tour that Meryl and Annie did, where they went around the world, like people really, really wanted to see them and talk to them and feel them. And I think you're right that there's this like thirst for something that feels like authentic and recognizable as opposed to something that feels uncanny.
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Kara Swisher
That's a very good word. That's an excellent word, David.
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David Frankel
Well, we went through this a little bit on the first movie because there was an indebtedness to the novel, which was at the time, you know, I don't know, it's sold, you know, just a crazy number of books. And so how faithful could we be to that? And then how much new storytelling, how original could we be? In the first one, we changed the whole third act of the movie. It's pretty faithful in its structure for the first two thirds. And we felt again, you know, this obviously is not based on any preexisting material. Aline concocted it from whole cloth. But there again, the expectation was these same characters, similar orientation. But we want to do something completely new that people don't feel like oh, it's just a retread. And anytime you're creating something from whole cloth like that, it's a huge challenge. But you know that the audience is going to appreciate it. I mean, you know, if they're seeing something new. And you know, one of the big talking points that I see online now is the nature of Miranda's character. Because we didn't. We don't launch her just, you know, full of diatribe and criticism and withering remarks. You know, we launch her into this movie in a vulnerable place. So it seems like, you know, we're seeing some new colors from that character and that some people are love that and some people resist that. It's fascinating to see.
- [14:18]
Kara Swisher
So Eileen, talk about that because the original film shaped how we think about women. Power, ambition. Miranda is very explicitly a villain, although she's a very funny one. And Andy's heroic turn comes when she realizes she doesn't need to compromise her values in order to please someone like Miranda. And yet you can't help respect her too. That last scene where she looks up and then says, that's all, of course. But she has a moment of real hope there. I have to say, I think this a lot with a friend of mine, Tina Brown, who was actually a cameo in the movie too. If she were a man, would we have called her genius instead of a devil? Obviously same thing with Tina in a lot of ways, as a big editor, I think she's the finest editor in the land. Right. And you know, other others get a very different things. And not to go all feminist on you, but it's a really interesting situation with someone like this. And of course, this is very much based on Anna Winter.
- [15:10]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Well, I think, you know, the first movie was really about how, like, even if your boss is nice, you're obsessed with them. Like, I used to work in a producer's office and everyone would be like, oh, he's running late. Oh, he ate chicken for lunch. Oh, he's going here, you know, for dinner. Like, there's an obsession with the boss that you have when you're an assistant. And I think that the movies are first person movies. So you're seeing Miranda through her eyes. And so she's terrifying in the first movie. But in the second movie, you know, Andy is middle management and you get to see your boss up close and you get to understand their challenges along with yours. So I think by definition, when you rise up a little bit in the workplace, those bosses take on a dimension. You know, like, you start, it's Almost like when you grow up and you start to understand that your parents are fallible. It's like you grow up and you understand, oh, your boss doesn't have all the answers, you know, and they have issues, too. And I think one thing Meryl has talked about is, like, Miranda lets someone help her, which, like, is. That's, to me, the most unexpected thing is less that she's at a low point, and it's more that she actually becomes open to someone doing something for her, someone unexpected, who she really didn't even want to be there. And so I think it's like that. That lens that you have on someone who's in power where you realize, oh, they're also fallible, and they make mistakes and they have weaknesses and they have, you know, bad moments.
- [16:36]
Kara Swisher
Right? Absolutely. Now, David, a few months ago, Anna Wintour and Chloe Maul did a joint interview with the New York Times. Anna, who I've interviewed, is obviously the global editorial director for Vogue. Chloe is the head of editorial content at Vogue US and Anna's successor and couldn't be more different. For example, in the interview, she talks about wanting to pay her staff more and how hard they work. David, is the approach to leadership and power less cinematic, or is there a different kind of tension in a more millennial style of leadership that, say, a Chloe represents or Andy's character would were she to take over?
- [17:09]
David Frankel
Well, it's. I think, yeah, there's this tendency to be less demanding and more understanding. And I think there's also an expectation from the new generation that they won't work as hard, that their feelings will be taken into account, which, you know, Aline and I grew up in, at a time, as I'm sure you did.
- [17:30]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, me too. Nice to meet you.
- [17:32]
David Frankel
Who cares about your feelings? Like, get the job done.
- [17:37]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's what the money's for.
- [17:38]
David Frankel
The reason I even got the job in the first place is I went into the studio and I said, miranda is not the villain here. Miranda is the heroine. Miranda is trying to achieve excellence every day, and why does she have to be nice to accomplish that? You know? And there's a long list of mostly men, of course, who are highly regarded for their superb work. I mean, they might be the goats in their business, and no one really questions how nice they are about accomplishing that. And I always viewed the movie through the lens of, you know, Miranda is the hero here. Meryl embraced that. I think, you know, she has always said, you know, that if it were a man, there would be no movie Right.
- [18:28]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I mean, I think it's funny because David is, like, notoriously the nicest, you know, and certainly among the nicest directors I've worked with. So I wonder if there's, like, a very curious thrill to watch somebody in the workplace, you know, because we are all doing our best to be polite and because the rise of a certain type of language being, you know, discouraged in the workplace and that people are, you know, you can't really say things you used to say. And so I think there is something even more titillating about this lady who's, like, kind of knows that she needs to rein it in, but doesn't really. Is not totally comfortable with that. And that was very funny in this one. Cause in the last movie, she's throwing her coats at people with abandon and wouldn't understand what the problem is. And now, you know, there's no scenes with HR in this movie. But I would love to write, like, deleted scenes.
- [19:21]
Kara Swisher
Oh, HRs all over it.
- [19:22]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I would love to write.
- [19:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Where she says things. Oh, I love that. Those are among my favorite. Where she says the wrong thing. What? And that. And the woman who plays her assistant this time, who's wonderful, just sort of gives her the side eye. That is so perfect.
- [19:35]
David Frankel
Simone Ashley.
- [19:36]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, she's amazing. Let's talk some specifics of the movie itself right now. The Devil Wears Prada 2 touches on media ownership drama. Justin Theroux plays Benji Barnes, a billionaire tech mogul resembling Jeff Bezos. There's a touch of Elon Musk, who knows nothing about the publication he wants to buy. Talk about this. Cause I was laughing my ass off because, you know, Justin, who I know, was asking me various questions, but he said he watched a lot of interviews I did and many other people did to inform him. But he has this really good sense of menacing oafishness that I think. And victimy toddlerness. Like, I called. I think I texted you toddler monster. What do you want to explore in the tension between these people?
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Aline Brosh McKenna
Well, I think, you know, sometimes I didn't really base them on anyone specific, but sometimes people are super, super, super bright, perceive the world in a different way. Like, I've been around people who are extraordinarily bright in my life that are kind of odd. They're perceptually odd. And the thing that Justin did, I mean, starting with his complete lack of vanity and the hair that he wears, which is just so extra and this spray tan and all that. But I wrote the character to be a little bit merry, like, I wrote, like, he has a weird laugh and like that Justin, he's so bouncy and cheerful that that's, I think, more scary than if he had approached it with, like.
- [21:02]
Kara Swisher
But also malevolent. He's clearly malevolent. In that one scene in Italy, he's malevolent. I hate to tell you, but you nailed Jeff Bezos with a touch of musk. And, you know, you also nailed Mackenzie Scott. Actually, Lucy Liu is playing his ex wife. And you got a sense of her because she's. Mackenzie is. It doesn't go out a lot. Right. She doesn't get seen a lot and everything. Which is interesting. Were you. And you didn't make him into a cartoon either.
- [21:31]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah. David, you want to talk about that?
- [21:33]
David Frankel
Well, I think that when Justin came on, it was a tiny part and he added some shading and some brilliant comedy that expanded who we, you know, how we understand who Benji is. His theories about replacing our necks and his desire to send a rocket ship to the sun were inventions.
- [21:55]
Kara Swisher
But.
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David Frankel
And then he and Aline really worked very hard on the speech that's in the Last Supper scene about his vision of the future. And that's where you find out, oh, this is actually someone who has thought very deeply about this and has horrifying opinions about it, but also understands the world and history and technology at its core.
- [22:20]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah, I think he's a guy who, like, polishes off a giant tome about ancient Rome or like, you know, the. The kingdoms, Venice or whatever just because he happens to be in Italy. But what Justin brought to it was like. So we got on a zoom and he took. There was things in the script that we talked about. And I said, you know, I think, like, an example is. I said, I think Benji's just, like, not drinking water right now. I think he wants to, like. He thinks water is bad. And then what came out of Justin's mouth without missing beat, he goes, yeah, yeah, he's running an aqua deficit. And I was like, thank you. And like, the same thing with the rocket ship to the sun was like, one line where it said, you know, people are going to the moon, but I want to go to the sun. And then he sat down with me before and he had, like, developed this whole thing of, like, a rocket that would go to the sun and how it would work. So I think one of the reasons that the actors, a lot of the actors in this movie loved the original movie and loved the idea of being on this, and they really thought about it, like, every single one of these Actors, I don't think I. There was a single day where Simone, Ashley did not come up to me before and say, okay, I'm doing. And she doesn't have that many lines. She's sort of like the secret, you know, she's Miranda's poly walnuts. Yeah. And so she would come and say, like, I think I'm gonna do this, or, like, I think I'm gonna play with my bracelets. Like, there was so much thought that obviously the main four, who were just these incredible, acclaimed actors, but even the supporting people, like, really thought so deeply about. And I think people feel like the world's a scary place right now. They don't know their place in it. They don't know their future. You know, people in the movie business are not immune to that. And I think everybody feels like, you gotta monetize your algo or whatever, you know.
- [24:03]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, right. No, I get it.
- [24:04]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Right.
- [24:04]
Kara Swisher
So to that point, the new movie comes, as we said, 20 years after the original. Things have changed in journalism a lot due to tech, by the way. And in 2006, Andy Sachs, played by Anne Hathaway, had to choose between a career in Elite fashion magazine or a newspaper. As my wife noted, she'd be lucky to find a job now in media at all. You could have leaned into a more glamorous fantasy world for the sequel. Instead, the film acknowledges the harsh reality of the industry has changed. David, how do. Cause it's a. I walked out of it and I said, you know, someone asked me, I said, well, it's real pretty and it's even prettier and it's more colorful and the fashion is more. And it's funny as ever, but it's very serious. It's a very deep movie. About this. Talk about why you took this approach.
- [24:50]
David Frankel
Well, we are living in challenging times. I don't need to tell you, Cara. And I think we are all living under the cloud of the future, you know, and that's just this very strange phenomenon. I grew up thinking, you know, the future was bright and rosy and, you know, go off, young man. Make your future, you know, make your way in the world. And I now, you know, I have kids who are 24 years old, Alina's kids, about the same age. And we're hard put to point them in the right direction. You know, where is and where's the right step? And, you know, especially my daughter is interested in film. And I, you know, the journalism and Hollywood are in about the same shape. You know, LA has become a very bleak place, I'm told. And the industry feels like it has shrunk dramatically in the last five years and it feels like it's destined to shrink dramatically even more in the next five years. So where do we go? And that's, you know, that's obviously true in journalism and that's true, I imagine, in law and probably even in medicine. You know, I met with the CEO of a major bank last summer and she told me that, you know, probably it could be a hundred thousand people are going to be affected by AI. So if you're making a movie that's about the world of media, it has to reflect the reality. I mean, that's, you know, one of our goals is to as light and entertaining as we want the movie to be is to also make it authentic, you know, and in the first movie we were able to pepper it with, you know, a handful of people and scenes that made it feel like, oh, this is really the world. And we, we tried again, you know, very hard to give it that. And honestly, you know, it all starts with Meryl Streep. She understands it's valuable to make an entertainment, but she also wants her work to be about something. And I think we share that ambition.
- [26:57]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [27:06]
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Kara Swisher
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- [30:43]
Kara Swisher
So every episode we get an expert to send us a question. And for you, both of you, we got two. The first one is for Aline. Let's hear it.
- [30:52]
Lindsay Peoples
Hi, my name is Lindsay Peoples. I'm editor in chief of the Cut. I am very excited because I'm actually on my way to go see the Devil Wears product two Right now with some of the cut staff. And really my question is that when I think about this film, 20 years ago, the fantasy of this film was that getting into the room with someone like Miranda was the ultimate pinnacle of their dreams and goals. Today, the fantasy, I feel like, is actually, does that room even still exist? And I'm curious about what was the hardest part in writing this film and now bringing it to 2026 with a powerful editor, when it seems that a lot of the cultural authority and dominance of that role has really moved to, you know, platforms like social media, substacks and to talent.
- [31:38]
Aline Brosh McKenna
That's a great question. I mean, who are we listening to? Like, who's Walter Cronkite? Who's Diana Vreeland? Who's Saul Bellow? Like, who are the leading public figures that we're all supposed to, like, believe, trust, follow? And that was one of the reasons that I thought this was a good idea for a movie, is because even as she's become more well known, the Miranda Priestley character, there's this incredible niche ification of all these worlds so that I'll meet somebody and mention it to my kids. And they're like, you don't know who that is. That person's huge. And then conversely, I'll be like, wait, you don't? No, like, they don't know who. They certainly don't know who Walter. I mean, my kids might know who Walter Cronkite is, but only because they're all.
- [32:22]
Kara Swisher
Madonna was just a recent one, right?
- [32:24]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Where, like, she came out and people kind of were. Yeah. So it's like those. I think, you know, a friend of
- [32:30]
Kara Swisher
mine says, who is this Madonna you speak of? Who is this Madonna?
- [32:34]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Somebody said to me, like, you know, it's important to, to dream of something that exists. So, like, for kids, like, if you don't want to set your cap at something that doesn't exist anymore, you know, like, it's going to be awful hard to be this sort of like, all encompassing authority when not just the niche ification, but also we just don't trust people the way we used to. You know, we just don't look to people as being infallible or fallible in the way we used to. And so she's on her back on her heels right from the beginning.
- [33:06]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. And her good work doesn't get much, many clicks or doesn't don't go viral, et cetera, which you discuss with her
- [33:12]
Aline Brosh McKenna
the idea of a loss leader. You know how they would always say, like, the news is a Loss leader. That's not a thing.
- [33:18]
Kara Swisher
You can't have a loss leader anymore.
- [33:20]
Aline Brosh McKenna
No.
- [33:20]
Kara Swisher
So let's get to our second expert question. David, you take this one.
- [33:24]
Amy LaRocca
Hi, I'm Amy LaRocca. I'm a writer and a journalist. But what qualifies me as an expert today is not only was I the fashion director at New York magazine for many years, I also worked at Vogue magazine at the exact same time as Lauren Weisberger. In fact, Lauren is the person who walked me back for my first job interview with Anna Winter. So I guess you could say I was an eyewitness to the devil wearing Prada and that whole era at Vogue. So my question today is, given how much fashion has moved in a much more inclusive and generous direction in the past 20 years since the original film came out, away from the idea that fashion should be gatekept, that it was only for these sort of skinny white women to see and enjoy. What do you think it is about that very sort of snotty, exclusionary culture at Vogue that people still really, really, really love to watch? They want the zingers. They want Miranda's nasty zingers and all of it and everything about that is what we're being told. Fashion has moved away from, and yet the fans can't get enough of Miranda. They're lining up dressed up as their favorite characters to see this movie.
- [34:55]
Back Market Advertiser
So what do you think it is
- [34:57]
Amy LaRocca
about fashion and bitchiness that is so appealing to audiences?
- [35:05]
David Frankel
Well, yes, I think, first of all, yes, fashion has opened up a little bit, but I think, you know, any time we get a peek into the people past the curtain of these Wizards of Oz, it's always fascinating. And the crueler they are, the more curious we are. There is something, I think, that Aline mentioned the other a few minutes ago, which is sort of that vicarious thrill, like. And honestly, it's kind of the way we probably view some of the billionaires and maybe even the way people view Trump. Boy, would I love to be able to tromp through the world crushing everything in my sight. There's some kind of vicarious thrill, and I don't know why. The fashion world does seem to attract people who are extremely opinionated and vocal about their opinions. And again, I think most of us are a little more restrained, and so we're fascinated by people who let it all hang out that way.
- [36:17]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah, I love the intense seriousness about silly things like, did you guys. Have you guys seen that Chanel half shoes that just came out? Yeah, they're half a shoe. They end at the middle of your arch and then your toes are out. And I don't know how much they are, but I'm Gonna guess they're $1,000. They're from Matthew Blaisey's. And you know, people are gonna lust after those and like resell them and get really excited. I'm sorry. And it's like cut to me buying them, by the way. But like, it's just. There's like an intense, intense seriousness about like, there's a line in the sequel where she goes, what about bow tie rodeo bow ties? And it's like the idea that you're like a very, very serious person and then you end up talking about very silly things that I think is. There's something kind of delightfully comedic about that. And so that's something I've always. That's why I think drying up the tone has always been really important and something I think David's done extremely well. So, like. Cause it can get real silly really quickly, right?
- [37:21]
Kara Swisher
Absolutely. So let's get real silly really quick. Finishing up talking about the movie. I am not a fashion person right now. I'm wearing a shirt that's called a blanket shirt. Cause it's so comfortable. I am a soft pants gal, but I loved the fashion in it. And my mom was a fashion coordinator at Bomb with Teller, so she loved fashion. And so I spent my youth in the back of a fashion show. So I know a lot about fashion, but I just never. It never stuck, as my mother likes to tell me. But talk about the fashion and its character, it worked even more in this movie. It was just astonishing. And talk about fashion as a character because it's like on 12 at this point.
- [38:02]
David Frankel
Thank you. I mean, we, you know, obviously there's. After the first movie, there's an enormous expectation. So, so much went into it. It starts with the collaboration with the stars and with Molly Rogers, our costume designer, who inherited the mantle from Patricia Field, who did it in the first movie. And I've worked with both of them for 30 years. I learned how to shoot fashion doing Sex and the city 20 years ago. And you know, when in doubt, start. Tilt up from the shoes was always our mantra. You had to make sure you saw the shoes. But I think the bar was set so beautifully high in the first movie. And Molly felt this daily pressure to raise it even higher for this movie. I mean, again, it all ties into how do we make an event, how do we make it something different and even more than. Than what fans are expecting and how do we make it something accessible and exciting for people who aren't even familiar with the first movie? So there are fashion shows in this movie that are grander and larger, but they also matter even more. I think it's making the fashion integral to the characterization. I don't know that they're integral to the plotting, but you really understand who these people are by what they wear. And, you know, Emily's character just working at Dior was, you know, we're starting with a sort of very simple idea that, oh, she mostly wears Dior. And then how within that world do we create Emily Charlton? And Andy's character was probably the biggest challenge because you're trying to create some simulation of reality for her as a journalist who's, you know, been traveling on a journalist budget for 20 years and now coming back into this world. And we rationalize it by saying, well, she, like you, she has learned. Learn, knows fashion, and now she's starting to reincorporate it into her life. And she's collected pieces over the years, and now she has access to the closet. I would never wear it, but you'd look great in it, and you'd know when you looked great. Yeah, yeah.
- [40:18]
Kara Swisher
Never.
- [40:19]
Aline Brosh McKenna
It was a really important part of the characterizations was the clothing. And I worked really, really closely with Molly. I spent a lot of time with Molly partly cause costumes is my happy place. But, you know, Meryl's character has a different look. Her look has evolved, and she works really closely with Molly on storytelling through her clothing. I've never seen an actor be more. It was almost like she was picking out armor to play a samurai or something. Like, she's very specific about it. And then Emily always has license to go over the top. And Nigel has this, like, established kind of crispness to it. And it's all updated. But as David said, you know, Annie's character, Andy, was the biggest challenge, because what I used to say to Annie was, it's like as if you lived in France for six months. So you speak some French, but not perfect French. You have an ear for it, but it's not perfect. So we blended, and then Molly sourced a tremendous amount of vintage. But apart from that, I think I just. The logistics of what Molly and her team did is so overwhelming because we had to do that huge fashion show with Gaga. Spoiler alert. There's a giant fashion show, and they pulled everything for that. And then she was pulling things that were, like, really current for the fashion montage. When you see our main characters arrive in Milan and Then they change a lot. And like, that's all very current, but it had to be current and timeless. And Molly has resources, she just has things from all over. And I'll share with you one of her fashion rules that she gave me that I've. That I've quoted a lot because, I mean, we had super high end stuff and really expensive things. But then, you know, Molly's also a magpie and like picks things from everywhere. And one time she, we were looking at something, she said to me, you know, darling, sometimes the right earrings are from cvs. And I have really taken that to heart. I quoted that to people many times because, you know, it's like that high, low, like putting. It's the styling in addition to just finding the items. It's how they're put together, you know, so it's like, I think when you watch the movie, you think it's just clothes, but the language and the storytelling of what Molly did. So we spent a lot, a lot of time talking because I'm also. I've been obsessed with clothing since I was like 12 or 13, because I used it to kind of transform my, you know, I was like, incredibly uncool. Not that I'm cool now, but I was unbelievably uncool. And then I had to figure out a way to like, get a little cooler and get some boys to like me. And it was really about like going downtown in New York and wearing vintage skirts and lace stockings and trying to craft something that was like Cher meets Madonna. That would like, make me cool. And that's what I love about fashion, is that it's a way of talking about yourself without saying anything. So I've always loved it and been obsessed with it.
- [43:11]
David Frankel
I was going to ask, what was your experience in dressing so authentically as Kara Swisher in our movie?
- [43:19]
Kara Swisher
That's a good question.
- [43:20]
David Frankel
David, did Molly oversee your costume?
- [43:24]
Kara Swisher
Yes, she did.
- [43:25]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Well, Kara's very, she's shy about this, but like, we didn't give anybody lines because if you give non actors lines, they get very tangled up in it. We just, David just kind of walked over and told you what was going on. And I gotta say, I don't know, not log rolling, but like, you just nailed like what a person would really say. And that authenticity is super, super important to David always. And like, as a collaborator, I will say, like, even just assembling those people for that party. I know it seems like we just stocked it with people cause like, to be fab. But like, Miranda's Friends had to be the best at what they do. And then the people at the party had to be, like, the chicest people who would show up at that party. So I know it seems like it's all for fun and confection, but it really had to feel like the right sorts of people. And luckily this time, because of the success of the movie, we were able to pull the clothes and the people and really populate. Like, there's no fake designer in this movie. There's Dior. And the first movie, we invented a designer.
- [44:23]
Back Market Advertiser
Yeah.
- [44:24]
Kara Swisher
I have to say, everybody, I've been wearing the same clothes since 4 years old. So you're welcome. And the Oscar goes to Kara Swisher for her fantastic portrayal of herself again. We'll be back in a minute.
- [44:46]
Maria Sharapova
I'm Maria Sharapova, and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. We'll dive into their stories stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Follow Pretty Tough wherever you get your podcasts.
- [45:17]
Unknown Male Speaker / Possibly Podcast Host or Announcer
So we are 250 years into this American experiment, and I'd say it's going okay. I give us, like, a C. There
- [45:24]
Historian (Unnamed)
is no perfect past, but there is also no exclusively negative past because humans are gonna human. That's what we do. I think the story of America is the struggle of people who have not been included in the promise of America to expand those principles to include more people.
- [45:44]
Unknown Male Speaker / Possibly Podcast Host or Announcer
What's gonna determine the next 250 years of America? And how do we write a new social contract that can give us the democracy we deserve?
- [45:53]
Historian (Unnamed)
Okay, so I'm just gonna be a jerk here because I'm a historian. So we have to have a prologue explaining, you know, we the people.
- [46:00]
Unknown Male Speaker / Possibly Podcast Host or Announcer
Oh, okay. You know, I do still remember it from Schoolhouse Rock. We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice. What is it? Ensure domestic tranquility.
- [46:11]
Historian (Unnamed)
So you're talking about a foundational document. So I'm building a document that will protect American democracy.
- [46:18]
Unknown Male Speaker / Possibly Podcast Host or Announcer
That's this week on America Acts relief
- [46:21]
Jake Sullivan or John Finer
is the U. S. China rivalry, ultimately a race to build the future. The United States and China are the two countries that are really inventing the future. The future is being financed by Wall street, invented in Silicon Valley as well as Shenzhen. I'm Jake Sullivan and I'm John Finer.
- [46:40]
Aline Brosh McKenna
And we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.
- [46:44]
Jake Sullivan or John Finer
This week, author Dan Wong joins us to discuss America's lawyerly society, China's engineering state, and why derangement might be a prerequisite for superpower stats.
- [46:55]
Aline Brosh McKenna
The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:02]
Kara Swisher
Let's pivot and talk about the intersection of. Because this is a topic in your movie. Very much so. Tech, Trump, Hollywood and media. Paramount's deal to buy Warner Brothers Discovery is causing Ajia in Hollywood. The fear is that it will lead to more job losses and fewer films. Thousands of Hollywood professionals have signed an open letter opposing the deal. Neither of you have signed. Neither have the stars of the film. Emily Blunt, Anne Hathaway, Meryl Streep and Stanley Tucci. I get that. And I've talked to a number of the people who have signed and why. But I'm wondering how you're feeling as these moguls like Paramount CEO David Ellison has cozied up to Trump taking over and changing CBS News their fears he'll do a version of that at cnn. I have publicly said I will not be working for the Ellisons. And of course, Trump this week is trying to get Disney, which is this film, to fire Jimmy Kimmel. Again, I'd love to know how you're feeling about these moments. Cause again, Disney owns 20th Century Studios, which is distributing the Devil Wears Prada. Thoughts on what's happening right now? Because Benji has won right now in this situation, and I'm not gonna say what happens in the movie, but Benji has won all over the place, whether it's Jeff Bezos at the Washington Post or wherever it happens to be.
- [48:19]
David Frankel
Well, you know, this was part of the conversation that we had 20 years ago, because at the time, Rupert Murdoch owned 20th Century Fox, which was had published the novel. You know, they, they own the, the imprint to publish the novel. And they, and Rupert was actually a driving force toward getting the movie made. And so, and there was this conflict in everybody who went ever went to work for Rupert because we knew what he was doing to the press at large and we knew that we rarely aligned with his political sensibility. And I believe that those same fears are even larger today when there's a political misalignment. And it's why are people anxious about buying anything from Amazon today? Because where is Jeff Bezos going with his money if he's supporting Trump? Can he really just keep one foot on each side of a divide? Are These guys really just neutral, or are they going to tip the scales? And again, it's part of our not knowing. I think it's the doubt we have about the future goes to the democracy, the technology. Everything seems in doubt. And I. I also worked for Rupert Murdoch. We were too busy to sign. Yeah, no, yeah. So we did not quit. We made him a hit movie. So we're probably part of the.
- [49:50]
Kara Swisher
I know I left and did my own company, right?
- [49:53]
David Frankel
No, And I admired that at the time. It was.
- [49:55]
Kara Swisher
I think everyone has to make their own choices.
- [49:57]
David Frankel
It's kind of what the movie's about. You know, it's like, I mean, it's, you know, this time around, Andy has to embrace working for Miranda and working for whoever is the billionaire who owns it, you know, and I think we're. So many of us are in that position.
- [50:13]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah. There's a line in the movie about, like being a. If you're a visionary or a vendor. And I think, you know, as a writer, young writer especially, you're sort of an entrepreneur, you know, you've got your little satchel of things you're trying to sell. And I used to tell writers, don't read the trades because honestly, the system was so stable. It was like, you don't really need to know who's in or who's out at these companies because it was so stable. And now it's like you open the trades or the New York Times or whatever. It's like, oh, that company doesn't exist anymore, you know, or has been bought or has disappeared or is, you know, we made this movie for 20th Century Fox and now we're with Disney, you know, like, you have to. Now in Hollywood, there's such seismic shifts, like every day. So for young people to break in, it's just figuring out, like, who's buying what. How can I make a living? You know, I really feel for young people who are trying to break in. And then you had this layer of, you know, what worries me is people who own these businesses where it's not their core business, because when it's not their core business, they can delete it like that. And that always scares me because they can wake up any day and go, you know what? Nevermind. This is too much trouble. These people are too annoying, this process is too unwieldy, and then it goes away. And so this instability really just was not the case. And now it's like you have to know what's going on.
- [51:35]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's very well said. One of the things is Some people are like, well, we have a good billionaire. I go, none of them are. They can change in a second. Like, that's the thing is this shifting. And also it's like, why are we relying on the kindness of billionaires? Even the nice ones, right? I was with one this weekend, and he was like, well, you like me. And I go, today, today I like you. But it could change.
- [52:01]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Well, you know, when you live in that world, I mean, you would know more than we would, but, like, when you're in that world and you're just in a thing where you're like. Like summoning your plane. Like, I remember somebody, like, there's a famous story about a producer getting on a plane and saying, like, you know, they don't give you the warm nuts anymore. Or, like, where do you sit? Where you get the warm. Like, there's just. There's. There's some quote about, like, there's no habit of the rich, which, once sampled, does not become an addiction. And it's like, once you are so accustomed to, like, you're playing your. I mean, I don't know, but I feel like there's something that changes the molecules of your brain so that things seem possible that maybe shouldn't seem possible. And that's why there's a line in the movie where she says, how long have you had a house here? And he goes, I have no idea. And just the idea that, like, you could have forgotten that you bought a house in Lake Como.
- [52:52]
Kara Swisher
A stunning house. Yeah.
- [52:53]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I think I don't know that I'll ever know what it's like to live that day to day. But it does seem like it changes people's idea of what they can and should do.
- [53:03]
Kara Swisher
Right. Well, what's interesting is I call it the Kashmir Prison. They go from the plane to the chief, and they have chiefs of staff everywhere. And whenever one of them comes up to me with one of their chiefs of staff, starts talking to me, I'm like, I'm not speaking to you. So either get the principal or move away from me. And I literally go, wasn't there a
- [53:20]
Aline Brosh McKenna
thing of rich people not having coats because they're. They don't ever. Yeah.
- [53:25]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that happened to me. And I was like, you're such an asshole. And I used to be able to do that. And now they don't want people like me around because I'm pointing out the obvious. All right, two more quick questions and I'll let you go. We obviously can't not talk about AI because everyone has to talk about AI and actually it's an important and inevitable topic, no matter where you turn. David. Directing is all about taste and point of view, something AI can't replicate. And great writing finds a way to take very personal, specific experiences to make them feel universal again. Again, something AI can't do, at least not yet. It can't mine its personal experiences because it doesn't have experiences. But will it always be that way? Can you imagine someone with real creative talent training an LLM to write and direct truly amazing films?
- [54:15]
David Frankel
I can imagine AI surprising us, yes. I think AI will be able to write jokes, and the essence of a joke is surprise. And it will learn what timing is. You know, it'll speak in a voice that we find amusing. So that's sort of the germ of it. Beyond that, storytelling, you know, I think we. The canary in the coal mine right now is music. People are listening to it and they can't really discern the distinction between something that's machine created and the human sweat poured into it. So I'm not going to be shocked when AI starts to take over first. You know, it'll be these micro dramas at first and it will slowly expand and people won't see it coming. And I think that's what's so beautifully expressed in Aline's speech for Benji near the end of the movie, which is. It'll be like the lava of Pompeii. You know, you'll. It'll just. It'll roll over us and we'll be buried in it. So I'm very pessimistic.
- [55:27]
Kara Swisher
Wow. Jesus, David. Jesus, David. All right, well, it's funny.
- [55:33]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I don't think we know because, like, when email, when we first got email, I don't know that I thought that's on a continuum to me doing the apple dance with my son's girlfriend on Instagram. Like, I don't think we know where it's going to lead. I don't use AI for anything except for like, hey, what's a good restaurant? Or like, where's the nearest anthropology? It's very unsmart. And like, one day I said, blah, blah, blah, you know, on Sunday the 19th. And it said, the 19th is Saturday. And I'm like, not very nice to my AI. And I was like, dude, it's not Sunday. And then, you know, it does that, like, super obsequious thing. Have you seen that guy in the Internet who was constantly making the chat mess up? Like, if you ask it, I had found it to be like, I have not seen this super competent stuff, I know this take is going to age poorly, but for what I use it for, which is like, what's a good place to eat? And you know, I'm in a new city, what's a cool place to hang out? And then like I was in Europe and I was like, okay, find me a place to eat right where I am. And then it's like, oh, they have great sushi hand rolls here. And then I go, and it's closed. And I'm like, my friend, don't send me to close restaurants. And it's like, you know how it does that? Obsequious.
- [56:49]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [56:51]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I'm so terribly sorry. Of course, you, blah, blah, blah. And then it, it, I don't know, I, I haven't, I'm not even tempted to use it for anything other than that, because I don't. It doesn't seem to know what day is Sunday and Saturday. And of course this is going to be, this is going to be dumb later when it's like I'm right in
- [57:07]
Kara Swisher
the middle, I'm in the middle between both of you.
- [57:09]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I'm saying this as it's going to control. Listen to me through my toaster and report.
- [57:13]
David Frankel
I mean, we already, look how much we've, I mean, look, we've been living with AI since the iPhone was invented. Basically, you know, we've all surrendered our phone numbers and our, and our maps and God knows what what other. Our photos, our tasks. You know, so much of it. We, we don't, we've lost the capability ourselves and we've handed it over to the machines. And anytime we can do that, we seem vulnerable and anything that the machine is pointed at, it will, it will eat. I mean, it's kind of, you know, I, look, it's the Borg.
- [57:49]
Kara Swisher
It is the Borg.
- [57:50]
David Frankel
Yeah.
- [57:50]
Kara Swisher
You saw that movie? Yes, it's the Borg. Yeah, it's the Borg. Yeah, it is. I keep telling people that. So, last question, the original film asked whether professional success is worth the tremendous personal sacrifice. 20 years later, has that answer changed? I think it's worth the sacrifice. But David, you go first and Aline, you get the last four.
- [58:15]
David Frankel
Yes, I, I, I, Look, I believe that, you know, if some, whatever your definition of personal happiness is the most important thing and work be damned. But it's really where, where you set your priorities, you know. But I personally have, I feel like I've made the sacrifices that Miranda Priestley has made at times. She talks about missing so much of her children's lives and I Feel that. And at the same time, there are just enormous rewards and gratifications that come with it. You know, I imagine you feel the same way. And you can't imagine your life without it. And so I hope that Andy, the character going forward, continues to aim high and uses Miranda as a model and doesn't compromise.
- [59:08]
Aline Brosh McKenna
I can only speak for myself that, you know, I feel that you have to make. The system doesn't care about you and it's not going to offer you choices. And that's very much the way our country is. Like, we're not going to make an accommodation. Like, that's just not the way we are. But for me, like, I decided to stick to screenwriting instead of TV writing when I had little kids. Because screenwriting allows you to sit at home and tv, you have to go where someone tells you when you can pee and eat and go home. So the system is not gonna care about you. If you wanna maintain a balance, you have to do it. And that's why I say to my kids or young people, think about what you love to do. But also think about, what do you want your days to be? Like, how soft do you need your pants to be? Like, do you need someone to tell you where to go to lunch? Do you wanna sit at a desk? The only thing about making choices is make choices for yourself and try not to have choices be made upon you. And the only way you can do that is by educating yourself about what the day to day of it is. And so that's something that I don't think we talk about a lot. Which is, like, literally, are you a person who needs to take a nap? Are you a person who wants to get up and walk around? And I think one thing that the pandemic showed us was that we could do this from home. Where I'm in my office, David's in Miami, and just making it work for you. But there's always gonna be things that you miss. And my very first work trip after my kids were born. Cause I didn't go anywhere. Was the first Prada table read. I went to New York. And my son, it happened to fall, of course, on his first day of preschool.
- [60:47]
Kara Swisher
Oh, no.
- [60:47]
Aline Brosh McKenna
And I have a picture of him holding a pink prince. A fuzzy pink pretend princess phone. Trying to call me from the preschool. Yeah.
- [60:57]
Kara Swisher
Oh, you're killing me.
- [60:58]
Aline Brosh McKenna
That my friend sent me. And I was, like, devastated because he just didn't understand where I was. And then now I always ask them, like, it was fine, it was good. You liked it.
- [61:07]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [61:07]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Like, you like having a mom who you. Yeah. Any. Any room to say. I don't. I don't want to know.
- [61:14]
Kara Swisher
Otherwise, it's fine.
- [61:15]
Aline Brosh McKenna
It's fine. You make your choices. You. Yeah, you say where. Yeah, Andy. Andy. I mean, by the way, I just will end with this. And he doesn't have kids, and she's not married. And that was really important to Annie. And that was something she said to me right away, was like, that I. She once said to me, like, there's a way to be in your 40s that we're not talking about. And I thought that was really cool. Like, she's not made the choices that are dictated to her. And that's why the love relationship in the movie is like, just seeing her meet someone and go out on a date. She can do that, you know, but showing women that there's anyone really, that you can make choices for yourself, and
- [61:55]
Kara Swisher
I certainly won't ruin the movie, but the last picture, they're all where they want to be. They're all where they want to be. And that's a fantastic picture.
- [62:03]
David Frankel
Oh, thank you.
- [62:04]
Kara Swisher
I'm not going to say what it is, but, yeah, it's really powerful, actually. The very last image that you get of them. I have to ask this. Is there going to be a sequel to the sequel?
- [62:15]
David Frankel
We have a stock answer, if you want to hear that.
- [62:17]
Kara Swisher
Sure, I'll hear your stock answer, which
- [62:19]
David Frankel
is that we love these characters and we love these actors, and any opportunity to work with them again, we would embrace.
- [62:29]
Aline Brosh McKenna
So 20 years from now, though, I think I'm going to be a little tuckered out. What about you, David?
- [62:37]
Kara Swisher
A little faster.
- [62:38]
David Frankel
It's going to have to come around. Yeah. We're not getting younger.
- [62:41]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I think there's one more go here. There's one more chapter, but that's just me. Anyway, I hope it works out. It's a wonderful movie. You guys are such talents. And one of the things I said to someone, you know, Scott was arguing with me about sequels, how sequels are so tired before. And I went to the movie and I said, no, you're wrong here. What happened is these people were astonishingly talented. They made an amazing movie 20 years ago, and now they're even better. Like all of them. Every single person involved in this movie, the music people, the costume people, they're different costume people. But the director, the actors, I said, they're just better at it. Even more so. And so this is why this movie, this is a perfect sequel in that regard.
- [63:24]
David Frankel
Thank you. That means everything to us.
- [63:26]
Aline Brosh McKenna
Yeah, that means a lot. Thank you.
- [63:28]
Kara Swisher
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
- [63:30]
David Frankel
Thank you for having us.
- [63:36]
Kara Swisher
Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roselle, Michelle Aloy, Kathryn Milsop, Megan Burney, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Korwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Sam Lee, Katherine Barner, and Roella Rouf. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, that's all. If not, by all means, move at a glacial pace. You know how that thrills me. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.