← On with Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher
“Mountainhead” Writer/Director Jesse Armstrong on Tech Bros, Murdoch and AI
00:56:51
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- [00:01]
Jesse Armstrong
I'm more eager to hear what you think about all this stuff than to hear myself.
- [00:04]
Kara Swisher
I have a lot of thoughts about your show.
- [00:06]
Jesse Armstrong
Can I interview you back?
- [00:07]
Kara Swisher
Yes please. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Oscar nominated, Emmy award winning screenwriter, producer and director Jesse Armstrong. He's best known as the creator of Succession, the series about a family that's strikingly similar to the Murdoch clan. I did a podcast about Succession and I had a great time cause I love the show and I talked to Jesse a lot throughout the process and interviewed him many times about his work. I've always thought it's amazing and the teams he brings together are top level. Jesse's film directorial debut, Mountainhead was just released on hbo. It's about four tech bros whose poker weekend turns into a life or death battle of the whales. Corey Michael Smith plays Venus, a tech renegade whose AI is allowing users to create undetectable deep fakes. Venus is desperate to convince his buddy Jeff, played by Rami Yousef, to sell him his quote good AI to flag the deep fakes before Venus's app gets shut down. Meanwhile, Randall, the philosopher wannabe investor Papa Bear, played by Steve Carell, is fighting cancer. He's willing to do anything to help Venus so that his AI will help him stave off death. And the host and poorest friend, super, played by Jason Schwartzman, just wants them to invest in his meditation lifestyle app so he can finally cross the $1 billion net worth mark the friends watch on their phones. While Venus's AI deepfakes lead to massacres and political assassinations around the world, spark imperialistic fantasies along with some unfriendly intergroup competition. It's very funny, very dark, and a sharp analysis of how founders think about their role in society. Any resemblance to current tech founders like Marc Andreessen or Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Sam Altman is completely intended. I'm going to talk about all that with Jesse and whether the techno oligarchy has replaced legacy media giants like Murdoch or not. This is a fun romp with a very smart, smart man. So stay with us. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow, who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work, the work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of your business. It hr, customer service and more. And that means your people can focus on the work that they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get started@servicenow.com AI agents support for the show comes from Trinet. Getting a business off the ground is no easy task and there's no substitute for a tight knit, trustworthy team. That's why Trinet wants to empower your small and medium sized businesses with industry leading HR solutions. From payroll to compliance to access to benefits. You can join innovative and purpose driven companies like Good Culture, Van Leeuwen Ice Cream and more who trust Trinet to provide industry leading HR solutions so your team can stay focused on what matters most. Learn more@trinet.com Vox to see what's possible for your business. That's t r I N-E-T.com Vox to get started. Trinut your path Their Purpose Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Virgin Atlantic Trains, Planes and Automobiles Besides being a good movie, they are an essential part of our travel experience. But we don't want just essentials, we want to have a bit of luxury doing it. Virgin Atlantic takes the VIP treatment to the next level with a private wing to check in and your own security channel at Lyndon Heathrow. You can glide from car to clubhouse lounge, a destination in its own right, in 10 minutes or less. On board you'll find a dedicated bar and social space and your own private suite to stretch out in with lots of space to store all your bits and bobs, a lay flat bed and delicious dining from beginning to end. Just be sure to leave room for dessert. Their mile high tea with all the little cakes and sandwiches is a Showstopper. Check out VirginAtlantic.com for your next trip to London and beyond and see for yourself how traveling for business can always be a pleasure.
- [04:51]
Jesse Armstrong
It is on.
- [04:53]
Kara Swisher
Let me start by saying thanks for coming on on. I know Jesse. For people who don't know, I did the Succession podcast and Jesse was on it several times which was wonderful.
- [05:02]
Jesse Armstrong
A total pleasure for me too.
- [05:04]
Kara Swisher
We're going to talk though about your latest HBO film, Mountainhead, which is also about the very wealthy this time the Tech Bros. Which I call Technically Broken is what it stands for and that is what this show is about. Technically Broken people. I think the strongest, and I'll get into more specifics about the movie itself, but I think the strongest line of the entire movie, of which there are many amazing lines, is do we believe in other people? I know it's not the flashiest line, but it really got me. It got me because they don't. Because they don't believe in other people. You also really created this antiseptic world that they live in, and you did that on succession cushions of wealth like Cashmere Prison, essentially, is what it felt like. And they live in this universe apart. It's essentially a horror movie, cabin in the woods, comedy. Somehow. Talk about, do we believe in other people? That line.
- [05:57]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, good. Yeah. You packed a lot in there and I'm glad you picked up on that and felt it was real. I mean, the phrase I didn't use, which is very current. Right. Is npc non playable characters. And that's almost. It's almost too on the nose to put in to see the world. A version of the world where you. Where there are people who are playing and people who aren't and the people who aren't don't count is. Well, that did feel beyond satire. So I didn't put it in. But the. Do you believe in other people? I think is a sort of more direct expression of it. I guess I'd also say it's a little bit of a more sympathetic version because I think it is a problem that all of us face to a certain degree is really believing in the reality of the whole rest of the world. And, you know, the challenge, I guess, is do I really, really believe that? And if I do, do I act in. In that way? And I think the tech guys probably don't act in that way. But I'd have to point the finger at myself as well and say, yeah, could I give some more money to charity? Did I need to spend everything I spent on my meal last night on it? So, yeah, I have some charitable feelings about these guys, which I'm eager to hear. Whether there's. How much of that remains in yourself.
- [07:19]
Kara Swisher
I agree with you. I think they're far too. Cause I don't think they are charitable. I don't think you were char. They were empty vessels and non sympathetic, actually. Even though they were trying for it. And including the most possibly sympathetic character, I suppose, the Sam Altman type character of Jaffer, in that I think he's one of the worst characters actually, because we'll get into that in a second. But talk about this idea of creating. Though you do create a layer, you create sort of a Bond look to it, you know, that could be the beginning of any Bond movie. Separateness, this creation of separateness from everything.
- [07:57]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. Finding the location was an absolutely crucial part of the film. And until we got it, nothing really felt like it worked. Also, nothing could happen. We couldn't hire anyone. We made this on a really tight schedule because I kind of wanted the audience to be in the same bubble of time as I was when I wrote it, which is just earlier in the year. In January, I started writing Amazing. And with this really tight time schedule, it was kind of hard for me and the rest of the people making the film to believe it was gonna happen until two things. One was us finding the location, which was tough to find. Somewhere that would have. You know, it's kind of like a play in that most of it the action happens in one house. So I knew with a little bit of my developing director's brain that I needed a lot of different spaces to be able to shoot. And the other thing was when Steve Carell said yes, which was another moment when I was able to sort of convince myself and people who were trying to bring on as everything from caterers to cinematographers, but you know that this is actually gonna happen in like four weeks or whatever crazy timeframe we were suggesting.
- [09:02]
Kara Swisher
Where was it set? Where did you.
- [09:03]
Jesse Armstrong
It's set in Utah, where, same as we shot it. There's reference made to Snowbird, which is a resort just over from Park City.
- [09:09]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, so when you think about that idea of you just said that I was gonna ask you about it because it's a play, all the horror happens off stage and it's in a contained space. Talk about writing it like a play, because that's really what's going on here.
- [09:29]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I grew up with those kind of TV plays in the 70s, 80s and 90s in the UK that would be, you know, play for today. It was a, you know, venerable tradition and where a lot of great writers worked. So I admired it. I knew that I wanted to for the production requirements. I wanted to try and make it fast. I selfishly didn't want too much of a burden of budget on me. Although we do have helicopters and some scale. So the budget grew. But that scope I found thinking of it as a low budget movie took the pressure off me a little bit. And I just like by temperament, a condensed time frame and a condensed geographical frame. It's gets my kind of creative juices going to feel you're gonna be in the space and see something develop there. So, yeah, a bunch of things conspired and also exactly as you said, which hasn't been mentioned that much as I've been chatting to people. It is sort of a horror movie. And the camera Peeking around pine trees to see a gang and seeing who's gonna survive is. Yeah. Something everyone will be familiar with, Right. From other kinds of work, right?
- [10:37]
Kara Swisher
Absolutely, absolutely. And the antisepticness of the place, you know, go to. I've gone to so many billionaires houses and not all of them are. They're all beautiful, but most of them feel like a Four Seasons. And I always go, ah, the Four Seasons again, like here I am. Because they're comfortable.
- [10:54]
Jesse Armstrong
It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And they're interchangeable. Right. And 100% and you know, it's called Mountain Head and references made to Ayn Rand. We did a lot of location scouting and Ayn Rand, a little bit like NPCs felt almost too on the nose. But the amount of places that that was the only work of fiction on display was truly odd. So it's like Ayin is busting her way in here whether I want it or not.
- [11:22]
Kara Swisher
She is, she is. I'm always. I'm often at some of these people's houses earlier in the year and they're like, have you read the Fountainhead? I'm like, no. Like, of course. I'm educated person. And it's not a good book. So your four main characters here, Randall, Venus, Jeff and Hugo, also known as Soup for Soup Kitchen cause he's the poore, are very much Silicon Valley archetypes. The philosopher king kind of thing who doesn't know a lot, honestly, or mutates history. Who I've dealt with, I would say that would be Marc Andreessen or Peter Thiel feels very like that. The main character is Venus is a Mark Zuckerberg Elon Musk character. The manicness of Musk and the ridiculous lecturing of Zuckerberg. As I recall, the tech for good Guy who is not maybe so good is Jeff, sort of an Altman kind of character maybe. And then the wannabe, of which there are so many. That's who I think they remind me of.
- [12:20]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. Great. And it's good to hear your versions of them and it's. It's fun to. To figure out their different attributes and divide them up. And yeah, there's a lot of people and I've read plenty. Including your own work. In fact, I think with There Must Be a Pony and Burn book, I think you're probably been a leading research font for two projects, so that's notable.
- [12:49]
Kara Swisher
Talk about the writing process a little bit. Did you piece it from real interviews? I mean, the word salads are fantastic. You know the word salads you make that these people go on. And actually what was striking for me was often I would tune out when they were doing those, when I was talking to them. And then I was like, I'm back like this, like, oh my God, I'm sitting here across from Mark Anderson listening to him lecture me about history when he took no history courses, which is always a pleasure. Or having the Holocaust told to me by Mark Zuckerberg when I was a Holocaust studies minor. Like, oh really? You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Nor did you read the source material, nor do your analysis is flawed in so many ways. But where did you get this sort of word salads in research? Do you know tech billionaires?
- [13:36]
Jesse Armstrong
No, I've got just a passing acquaintance with a little bit of tech personal knowledge, but very little. And almost everything from this was secondary reading. I'm a real secondary reader. Like a lot of writers, I'm scared of other people, so I prefer to encounter them through the page and on podcasts. Yeah, books were amazing, long form journalism, amazing. Podcasts were the thing which meant I couldn't get these guys. And as you know, they're mostly guys, voices out of my head. And so a bunch of the vocabulary I find fun to mess around with, but it's particularly a tone of voice and as you know, there's like bitter, bitter rivalries and different approaches, philosophical disagreements, as you know. But you do know so well these people. There seems to be a philosophical kind of maybe pleasingly can do approach, but that can do confidence as I guess their cultural centrality and the amount of money that they control has I would say moved into a kind of arrogance, cultural and political and financial arrogance that feels, you know, really palpable in the world increasingly to everyone. Right.
- [14:47]
Kara Swisher
So they were like that at the start, just they were Ed Gates.
- [14:52]
Jesse Armstrong
They knew it was all coming in my book.
- [14:53]
Kara Swisher
I noted the first word I wrote down when I met Jeff Bezos was feral. He's feral. He was wandering around like a wombat throughout this. He wore khakis at the time, pleated khakis and had no muscles. That's very different from what he. I mean they just, they manifest themselves physically now the way they were mentally, which I think is really interesting. The physicality, I think you have that actually down the fitness. They're obsessed with fitness at this point. Did you use AI at all? I'm just curious.
- [15:20]
Jesse Armstrong
No, no, I don't think so. I don't think we have any AI in the film. No, I mean the Visual effects. You'd have to talk to the studio what tools they use nowadays. But that's all people doing.
- [15:30]
Kara Swisher
But you didn't dabble in it for putting like.
- [15:32]
Jesse Armstrong
No, I've not. I've sort of had a bit of.
- [15:34]
Kara Swisher
A self denying audience give me a Marc Andreessen speech. No, not at all.
- [15:37]
Jesse Armstrong
The only thing I've ever used it for is writing. It's sometimes nice to write a resume in the third person because it can be a little bit embarrassing. Right, right, right.
- [15:44]
Kara Swisher
That's true.
- [15:45]
Jesse Armstrong
It's a suitable task for the AI.
- [15:46]
Kara Swisher
Okay, all right. Well, you'll see there's more coming. The constant dunking and one upsmanship that you mentioned and the lack of real relationships is a really interesting thing. And I think you nailed that perfectly. And a lot of it has to do with wealth because it changes once they become wealthy. Everybody's licking them up and down all day. And it creates a very different dynamic. Even the inability to hold a B was really. That was possibly one of the more disturbing scenes. It's something I've seen. I saw Sergey Brin hold a baby and I coming up the stairs of my house and I was like, put that baby down. What are you doing? And he was trying to make a baby go to the bathroom over a toilet when it was a baby, like saying it could happen. And I was like, give me that baby now. Taking it away from you. And then I should have put that in the book. I didn't do that. Nature also, the way they relate to nature is to say something like so beautiful you could fuck it. Which is like, I couldn't believe. That line was spectacular, by the way. So it seems to me that they're deeply and fatally insecure in that regard. I mean, is that what you're going for there? Because the lack of relationship ability, including with staff, was really quite striking.
- [16:57]
Jesse Armstrong
I think I'm gonna end up like defending these guys to you. Carrie seems like you're much more dyspeptic. I guess I've been over. I'm just going to ask. I feel critical of them. I feel scared of the world which we live in with them having so much power over it and a lack of interest from the political sphere. I guess I would say one of my initial impulses was reading the Michael Lewis Sam Bankman Fried book, which I enjoyed.
- [17:25]
Kara Swisher
Sure. That's a sad book.
- [17:26]
Jesse Armstrong
A sad book, right. And I guess I do think that although the effect of altruism became just some kind of bullshitty part of his. I think he was Interested in it as a way through the world. And I do believe Sam Altman is scared about AI and that might have been his initial impulse. And Elon too.
- [17:51]
Kara Swisher
I like Sam.
- [17:51]
Jesse Armstrong
Just so you're aware, what do you think about their moral impulses, which I do believe are in there? Do you see them as being completely hollowed out?
- [18:00]
Kara Swisher
I think that they shouldn't be in these decision making roles. I think they're inadequate to the task as anyone would be. But they in particular, they have no sense of history. They have no sense of.
- [18:10]
Jesse Armstrong
They have.
- [18:10]
Kara Swisher
So many of them have difficult relationships and should have sought therapy a long time ago. And they're. I think Peter Thiel is very smart. That is someone who I do think is very smart. I remember talking to one of them who was lecturing me about politics and I kept thinking libertarian lite. You have no sense of what a libertarian is or Rand or anybody else, but you've just decided to do Cliff Notes version of it or, you know, politics for Dummies. So I think I don't really care if they're sympathetic or not. They're in a position to really hurt people.
- [18:42]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah.
- [18:43]
Kara Swisher
Ultimately. And that's why I'm not sympathetic.
- [18:45]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. And I guess I'm talking sympathy on the more general human level. I have human sympathy for them. I feel pity on both sides. I feel pity for the politicians who. Well, the ones who would. Who might seek to create a framework that could help us manage these incredibly powerful technologies. And I feel a bit of pity for the. They make it increasingly hard, but they themselves, right up until 18 months a year ago, seem to be saying, regulate us. Like help us with this fucking stuff, which we know how potent it is. And so I do have a degree of pity. I think the money has become so available and the sense of your own abilities become so overweening that they stop maybe wanting those guardrails, which is a dangerous moment.
- [19:37]
Kara Swisher
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- [21:15]
Jesse Armstrong
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- [21:46]
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- [22:36]
Kara Swisher
One of the best scenes which I think people probably comment on, is this dick measuring scene on the top of the mountain where it's about money. It's clearly a ritual. They put the mount they have on their chests with lipstick essentially. Explain that. And the hats, the laurel wreath, the captain's hat, the sailor cap, and of course the thick hip hop chain with a soup ladle.
- [23:02]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I mean that's craft, that's exposition. You know, I needed To I wanted to make sure. Cause there's a sort of somewhat pivotal moment in the film where there's a reversal of fortunes and the sort of usurper takes over from the old king in financial terms, which, as you say, are really important or is a big measuring stick for these people. So that was just a craft job of like, how can I make this? How can I feed some medicine to the audience in a more palatable fashion? And I guess if you get a really successful version of that, you end up forgetting that you're giving any medicine at all and it becomes its own piece. And yeah, as you've mentioned, there is a desire to have a relationship, especially to imperial monarchies. And you know, Rome is often there. Right. As you know, wearisomely. So and so the diadem and that this, the ranking, the mixture of sort of high and low culture appealed to me as something which I didn't actually read about, but seemed very plausible.
- [24:03]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, the soup ladle was my favorite soup. And the lipstick writing on the thing. I could see them doing that. I could see them. They would do that. They would do something like that, which it's more about. They talk less about money, but they're always aware of the money they have, which is interesting. They pretend they don't care about money. And one of the first articles I wrote for the Wall Street Journal was how much they talk about not caring about money. And then they all had the most expensive hoodies, which were cashmere. And they're like, oh, I just wear hoodies. I'm like, that's a $400 cashmere hoodie or 600. Like, I don't know what to say to you. That's not a hoodie, it's something else. So one of the things that in that regard of sympathy is the lack of aw. And I think that was sort of very clear throughout that the lack of self awareness is rather significant in these characters and in real life. And lack of relativism. I think you had a scene that was really interesting to me, which was Venus was talking about the benefits of his new system of creating content that was just information overload, fake information. And he was talking about a horny Snoopy, you know, with a heart on. Except there was also murderous imagery too. And he was putting them as relatively equal. Like, well, you get the murder, but you also get the horny Snoopy. Isn't it fun? And you said everything is a moment. And you could not ask for better marketing. Talk about that lack of like the comparative relic. Because it even applies to the good AI person. I'm sitting on a cure for info cancer when everyone is dying. But that's also he sees as an opportunity. Right. It's like I can make a killing stopping the killing.
- [25:42]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. You know, I guess there's different spheres in the movie of stuff. I'm positing the crisis in the world, the killing that's going on in the world is the most sort of black mirrory and hypothetical. Right. We know about Myanmar, we know about a certain number of other instances where social media has been implicated in flaming bad situations. But what I paint hasn't happened and hopefully won't. So that in a way is a backdrop. And it could have been replaced with a 2008 financial crisis or a different geopolitical crisis. I guess what I know is I really believe that this is how these people talk and this is how they see the world and this is their philosophical approach. We wrote for Rami's character for Jeff. He says, you know, he compares Venice's tech to 4chan on acid. And because he's a brilliant young actor and had totally imbibed the part, Corrie let that hit and looked to the side and just said awesome. And that to me, spoke to him. Having fully imbibed these characters, which is that kind of bright eyed mad zealotry for the possibilities of the future. And also, you know, a phrase that has been used for a book title. You know, that vast carelessness, which feels very scary.
- [27:21]
Kara Swisher
How do you think these overlords compare to previous oligarchs and leaders? Because this has happened.
- [27:26]
Jesse Armstrong
It's a great question that the. Practically speaking, from my point of view, the big difference is that, you know, Redstone, Murdoch and Rockefeller and JP Morgan did not go on each other's podcasts the whole time, giving me their whole vocabulary and sort of a pretty rough and ready version of their philosophy. So from my point of view as a writer, satirist, comedy guy, it's just a gift that they're out giving. You know, they're taking a lot of my material for free, so hey, fuck you. I take some of your material for free too.
- [28:00]
Kara Swisher
It's true. But in comparison, you're right, they didn't. Although Murdoch was on Twitter for a New York minute there and they pulled it away. They pulled his iPad away from him for what I understand. Cause it was crazy. You do get a vision into people's personalities. This week, Elon is on another PR tour. As much as he hates media, he won't get off of it. Which really means he's got an addiction. One of the characters, Steve Carells, as you noted, he was critically to get to it. And he's been playing a lot of pretty heinous characters recently, which is great. He's good at it. In the morning show, he was just in the four season. Not a great guy in that one too. But he's perfect here because one of the things he does, and there is a person like this, the Papa Bear, the way you talk about this guy. And there's several of them in Silicon Valley like this Bill Campbell, who is lovely, by the way, would be one of them. But there was a lot of people they rely on. But he uses these philosophical quips to justify anything and everything, including murder, you know, and he says, I know everyone and can do anything. Which is something. Which is absolutely true. Talk a little bit about using this character. Cause he's a critical character and an influence on all these other characters. And he's sort of a bad mentor, a bad teacher.
- [29:09]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, yeah. There were a few things that were crucial for me. Some of them are drawn from life. And you know. Yeah. Andreessen and Teal. We thought about a thing which, as far as I know, doesn't apply to either of them, was that I also wanted this flavor of mortality. And you know, it's obviously a thing, especially in tech world, the hope that you might be able to defeat death. I just find that very, very funny and very, very human because. Yeah, great. Who wouldn't want to do that? So he's a vessel for that anxiety and it provides a plot motor in that he's trying to beat the clock. So there's that element to him. There's also. It was Andreessen, wasn't it, who talked about the deal going wrong and that there was a certain point between R and the culture, this kind of philanthropic. We give you this and we get that. Which would be like a claim, or if it was in the uk, a knighthood, or if it's in the us, maybe it's a wing of the Met or some other museum. And somewhere along the line, I don't exactly see when this happened, but he apparently feels that they stopped getting their dues. And that's a strong. That's a strong feeling for Randall. You know, he. And it's expressed in the negative. You know, someone says to him, you never got your flowers. And he demurs. But I think you can see from Steve's performance that he strongly believes like some. Somewhere he didn't get his due, that he's changed the world.
- [30:34]
Kara Swisher
Cause he wasn't a founder, he was a funder.
- [30:37]
Jesse Armstrong
I think that's part of it right in the micro level of the plot. But maybe culturally on a wider level he feels he hasn't been rewarded. So yeah, there was that personal thing. There's that very precise non founder, but more vc kind of advisor y combinator kind of accelerator guy. Yeah. And then, you know, you get the brilliant thing of you cast Steve Carell and he brings his Steve Carell ness to it and the character shifts in another direction. So that was a. You know, as a director, that was an exciting part for me.
- [31:11]
Kara Swisher
One of the things there is a death element here and there is a big death element. My next book is all about the longevity movement among tech people and what it means and the lack of understanding of what they're doing here. But. But I've talked a lot about how AI, especially artificial general intelligence, is a means to avoid death at all costs. Larry Ellison has an institute and they all have like moved into this space. You can see them morphing their bodies in ways. And I'm gonna explain to you what they've been doing and where it's going. It's also a lot about birth to me. These are all men, as you noted, and they can't have children. This is their version of pregnancy. I feel like this is my new theory. Talk about that idea of death. Obviously, the death of Steve Job hung very heavily over a lot of Silicon Valley. The early death of Steve Jobs, who talked about death quite a lot in his life. Why make it that idea that this guy wants to upload his intelligence into the brain grid? I think that's what they called it, right?
- [32:12]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I guess it's almost too banal to say how much of a fear it is for all human beings. The sense of. Of going and you know, like the Woody Allen joke. I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it through not dying. They are that joke made real flesh and blood. And who wouldn't? The moment you start considering that you might not have to die. I can see if you see a pathway, however small. You know, there was a scene that we cut where Steve was talking to Corrie's character about how it just seemed of overwhelming importance not to die. And I think I like the basic five year old plea like I don't wanna die, don't make me die. And so something about philosophizing around it. And also, you know, I think. Right, you tell me. But so far biologically no one is living forever. The idea of some kind of digital. You tell me whether you fancy it being, as they say, hung up on a stairmast while your brain's on the grid, it doesn't strike me. It strikes me as much more Charlie Brooker than sort of.
- [33:31]
Kara Swisher
I think they wanna print. Well, I'm just starting the journey of this book, so I'm gonna start doing.
- [33:36]
Jesse Armstrong
What do they wanna do?
- [33:37]
Kara Swisher
Lots of things. Print livers, create new bodies, put your head in a different Frankenstein y kind of stuff, you know.
- [33:46]
Jesse Armstrong
I wish I'd had print me a liver when I was doing the film. If only we'd before had made the film print me a liver would be in there.
- [33:53]
Kara Swisher
I met with someone just recently and they're talking about senescent cells. And I'm like, well, as Scott Galloway says all the time, biology is undefeated, you know, so far. And so you could see. I think you see it manifested in their bodies right now. Whether it's Zuckerberg doing the fighting or Bezos doing whatever he's doing, I have a sense of what he's doing. But, you know, they all have some hack body hacks, you know, and I think that's why it's attractive to them. And it started with Soylent efficiency eating and stuff like that. But one of the things is, even though they're trying to constantly be living or doing or creating or dominating, they're in terror of being overshadowed and overtaken in this movie. And every friend is a competitor and even worse, a mortal enemy. They have to screw each other over in a lot of ways. The very last lines of the movie are about screwing each other over. Talk a little bit. Because this was a sense in succession too. Like, who knew who your friend was? There was a constant, constant topping, essentially. So talk about that. Because as much as they wanna live and create and own and dominate. To what purpose?
- [34:57]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I guess part of that is, you know, I've written. The thing that me and Sam, my old writing partner, wrote, Peep show, was two guys living in a flat in Croydon. And so I'm a bit of a connoisseur of male friendships and the complexities of them. You know, all friendships, you get different things, and they're not. Who would remain friends with the person who never asked them how they were doing, who never called them, who never invited them out for dinner. Right. There is a transaction involved in those relationships. I guess most of us feel sad about that or would dream of the kind of a platonic version of friendship where you would Be there for your best friend forever, whatever happened and whatever they did for you. I guess this is just a bit of a. It's rather a tough version of friendship where the sort of contract is rather clear and rather near the surface. And the bit of men, maybe all people, but you see it, especially in men of competitiveness, is just coded right into the very form of the relationship. So, I mean, I just find it funny and interesting and sad to a degree.
- [36:17]
Kara Swisher
Very much so.
- [36:18]
Jesse Armstrong
Men's failure oftentimes, I think it's culturally being remarked upon a bit, this sort of sadness that men have about sometimes.
- [36:26]
Kara Swisher
Not making good friends, that's also the next level. Cause Carell's last look, he knows they're gonna fuck him, right? He sees it, he knows it. They have to. Cause that's what he's taught them to do, right? He's the father figure, presumably.
- [36:38]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah. And also the thing that most of us don't have, most men don't have, most people don't have, is the extraordinary excitement of feeling that this moment is, you know, like Sam Altman told the ft, I've got the maybe the coolest, most important job in the history of the world. Most of us don't feel like that most days. And to feel it and for there to be a 4% chance that it's true is pretty remarkable. And therefore, if you feel like the hug that you give this guy, it's not just you hugging him, it's like this is, you know, Pompey and Julius Caesar. It's like it's world historical. That's, that's pretty exciting for a mere mortal.
- [37:22]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute.
- [37:37]
C
Support for this show comes from pure leaf iced tea. You know that point in the afternoon when you just hit a wall. You don't have time for self care rituals or getting some fresh air. So maybe you grab a beverage to bring you back, but somehow it doesn't do the trick or it leaves you feeling even worse. What you need is a quality break, a tea break. And you can do that with pure leaf iced tea. Real brewed tea made in a variety of bold and refreshing flavors with just the right amount of naturally occurring caffeine. With a pure leaf iced tea in hand, you'll be left feeling refreshed and revitalized with a new motivation to take on what's next. The next time you need to hit the reset button, grab a pure leaf iced tea. Time for a tea break. Time for a pure leaf.
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Kara Swisher
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Jesse Armstrong
Paint, finish and satin or what that.
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Kara Swisher
Clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be.
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Jesse Armstrong
A home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see.
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Kara Swisher
Price estimates and read reviews all on the app.
- [38:50]
Jesse Armstrong
Download Today.
- [38:52]
C
Support for this show comes from pure leaf iced tea. You know that point in the afternoon when you just hit a wall. You don't have time for self care rituals or getting some fresh air share. So maybe you grab a beverage to bring you back, but somehow it doesn't do the trick or it leaves you feeling even worse. What you need is a quality break, a tea break. And you can do that with pure leaf iced tea. Real brewed tea made in a variety of bold and refreshing flavors with just the right amount of naturally occurring caffeine. With a pure leaf iced tea in hand, you'll be left feeling refreshed and revitalized with a new motivation to take on what's next. The next time you need to hit the reset button, grab a pure leaf iced tea. Time for a tea break. Time for a pure leaf.
- [39:43]
Kara Swisher
I want to ask you in sort of a creative sense, AI generated video is getting good, is getting very good. And you've seen these Google releases, you've seen the OpenAI releases. How worried are you about these implications of generative AI, not just for the real world, but also what you do? Because they just made a commercial that looks like pretty much most of the mundane commercials that are made by just about anyone. What, what saves people here being super creative like you or what?
- [40:13]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I've been asked this a bit a lot. And I refer them to you because it's a sort of journalistic question, a tech question. It's a forefront of what's happening question. I've I informed myself enough to be able to make the movie and partly I pour my anxieties into jokes and scenarios. That's that I could, that I could play out. Not the ones that I don't know how to answer. I have no, I have no answer. It's just going to get better and better and better and better. And any limit you set on what it can't do I think will be surpassed. So there is no limit to what the creative material it will be able to create. I suspect maybe something will break and the hallucinations will go out of control. But I think that even those kind of things will get fixed eventually.
- [41:02]
Kara Swisher
Correct.
- [41:03]
Jesse Armstrong
As long as things are clearly labeled. You know, I'd watch a Volkswagen ad by AI and I would watch a certain amount of cgi, as you already do. Done by AI I will read once every five years a short story or a poem by AI to see what they're doing and what they're thinking. But I don't want to read more than one and I don't want to read more than a few pages. I want to know what you think and what my friend thinks. And the friend who I imagine knowing who's the author of. Of the book that I'm reading. I'm only interested in other humans, and I think most humans are. But we may. That may change. So I have no consolation to offer for someone.
- [41:45]
Kara Swisher
I think the very talented people are fine. I think the marginally talented are fucked. And I think the medium talented people are fucked. Because. But in your case, for example, what if they said, you know what, Jesse, you don't own your stuff anymore. We're gonna make many more seasons of succession by feeding in the past seasons of succession. And they'll be able to do it and it won't be bad. Right. So let's have. Jesse doesn't want to do them, but we do. That's something you're going to face at some point.
- [42:12]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I think contractually now the WJ would still have my back and they wouldn't. Or they offer me a new contract or the next thing. What do I think?
- [42:22]
Kara Swisher
You don't have to do it. It will do it based on your work.
- [42:25]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I think that's going to happen. I don't have a good answer to that. I think one thing is, you know, I already, with my fellow writers, I have like six alts for a funny line that we're gonna throw in. And in the end, I need to choose which is the best and which fits with the rest of the show. I mean, an AI will be able to do that and make a choice. I think you hope the tone of this movie is of a piece. Everything I'm saying an AI will be able to do. But I guess the multiplicity of available options means that you might be interested in the taste of a human being. I don't know. I'm unwilling to offer any.
- [43:07]
Kara Swisher
I think you'll be fine. I think you'll be fine. By the way, as an aside, one of the funniest things is the Supe character running Argentina just never really went anywhere. But I loved it. Cause they do think this just the way Elon thought he could run the government. Ooh, aircraft carriers.
- [43:24]
Jesse Armstrong
I think they only really want him to invest in a power station. But yeah, they definitely give him that impression.
- [43:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, exactly. So a couple more questions. We've seen our citizen Savagers mess with Tesla speaking of Elon Musk, and there have been protests around the country. It's certainly affected his business, although I think the real reason his business is suffering is because he makes shitty cars and he should make good ones. That's all. There hasn't been very much large scale anger at Tech Bros. Yet, although Musk has certainly become very disliked and in a very short time. Do you see that happening? Any kind of people being angry at this power these people have. Have?
- [44:00]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I mean the, I guess Musk has been very unusual and the people in my film are different, right. In that they don't have Doge. Kind of weirdly I wrote, started. I pitched this in December, wrote it in January and we've been making it, but Doge actually didn't exist when I pitched it. And when I first started writing it was before the inauguration and now it's or Elon's involvement in it and effectively it feels like it's popped as a, a political moment. So that's unusual. His visibility was unusual and it's had unusual level of effect. Right. He's more famous than anyone, partly because of his Twitter usage, but he's put himself in the forefront of the popular imagination and I think people will be reluctant to do the same. He's a very particular individual, isn't he? Who as you said, like, seems to feed on it. So I think if. I think people will be wary about taking such sort of political slash cultural dominant position. You know, Jobs obviously was a, was. Had a much, much, much, much, much different public Persona. There may be, there may be people who deserve as much opprobrium. I don't think they'll draw it unless they're, unless they go down the Musk route. But he's been probably pretty salutary to people who've been, think. Who think about going into, into the public sphere. Don't you think?
- [45:18]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, it didn't work for him. But you know, he's irritating. I think even the Trump people initially they called me and said, oh, you're just mean to him. And he's great. I'm like, you'll see. And they called me later and was like, he's a fucking irritating person. I was like, I don't he's just a person and he's irritating and he talks too much and he doesn't know what he's talking about. But, you know, good for you. You got the money. So speaking of succession, who do you think now has more influence over politics right now? Murdoch or your average tech billionaire in that regard?
- [45:49]
Jesse Armstrong
I guess there is no average tech billionaire, is there? But that's a really great question. I mean, I still think most Americans get most of their news from local news, that the balance is gonna go. And Facebook is obviously unbelievably important in that. Twitter less so. But culturally, because of all the journalists on it and also less so right now I'd still plump for Fox power over, over any other power. But in its where we're going and in its generality, yeah, we're in a tech age, we're in a social media age, aren't we? That's where it's happening. That's where people's, where everything's forming. But the Twilight is still quite strong, I think the Murdoch, the agenda setting of print and the viewing numbers of tv.
- [46:36]
Kara Swisher
Do you have any thoughts what'll happen post Murdoch? Although he's got, I gotta tell you, killed off Logan Roy. You can't kill off him. I literally would not turn my back onto him until I saw him in the ground. That's my feeling.
- [46:49]
Jesse Armstrong
I think his mum was. 107. 109.
- [46:51]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, something like that.
- [46:54]
Jesse Armstrong
So have I got any? No. I mean, I did think, forget AI, they were writing an extra season of succession for us out in the desert in Nevada. The reporting out of that trial was. I get a bit bored of like, oh, you couldn't write it. I often feel like, hey, give us a try. I think I could write it. But the meetings that had gone on and the family movements behind the scenes were pretty extraordinary. But it's, it's. I think it's going to be a mess, isn't it? And dynasties often crumble when that, when there's a contest for power.
- [47:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's how they go. It's so funny. I love that they all pretended. Several of them pretended to me. They never watched succession and they all did. Like, that was my favorite. I almost wrote you. Like, see, I told you. They read. They were. Oh, we don't, we don't pay attention. They paid complete attention to succession, which was very funny.
- [47:44]
Jesse Armstrong
I don't think Rupert.
- [47:45]
Kara Swisher
Why wouldn't they?
- [47:45]
Jesse Armstrong
I don't know.
- [47:46]
Kara Swisher
Oh, I bet he did. Oh, I bet he did.
- [47:48]
Jesse Armstrong
He watched everything I Bet he's halfway through. I don't think he gives a fuck.
- [47:52]
Kara Swisher
Well, that's true also, but he pays attention to everything. I've never seen someone who pays so much attention to gossip and everything else. So, last two questions. Are rich people inherently more interesting narratively in a story because they have more choices? What is about the. Especially the American ultra rich in particular. That's interesting to you? And would you ever make a TV show about poor people or do you.
- [48:14]
Jesse Armstrong
Think, yeah, I would.
- [48:15]
Kara Swisher
Why is it interesting to you?
- [48:18]
Jesse Armstrong
You know, I try to be honest about this because, you know, rich people have helicopters and fancy windows that you can shoot big mountains out of. So there is some attraction to it maybe. Particularly actually, for a director, even more than a writer.
- [48:32]
Kara Swisher
You love a helicopter.
- [48:33]
Jesse Armstrong
I don't. I've never gone in a helicopter and I hope never to. I'm scared of them.
- [48:37]
Kara Swisher
But you love having them. They're always in you.
- [48:40]
Jesse Armstrong
Maybe I do. They look, they. They. They have a certain thing on camera, and I don't. I don't know what. What to do about that, but I honestly, my. What I claim, and you tell me if you're calling on it, is I. I really don't think I particularly am interested in rich people. I'm just interested in power. I think power. And you are, you know, you. You writing about poor, poorer people. You know, the stakes are actually much higher and easier to write. In some ways. These people who you. Who were portraying, in some ways, they don't care about much. Right. Everything is kind of gonna be fine for them. And that was. I mean, some people felt that about Succession when they came to it, and some people continued to feel it and tuned out pretty fast. It is a challenge to make people care about them because the worst things. Well, a bad thing happens in this film that could have impacted their lives, but most of them, nothing. They're gonna be unbelievably rich forever, even if the economy goes into recession.
- [49:38]
Kara Swisher
And, yeah, they had their New Zealand plan at the end.
- [49:41]
Jesse Armstrong
They can't get poor. And that's a bit of a challenge for a writer. So I really think it's power. I wouldn't care to write just a bunch of rich folks.
- [49:49]
Kara Swisher
No, I think you're right. I think you got it. I think one of the things Is the loneliness that they have was really very clear. And one of the. The resonance from Succession was the last scenes of Succession where I was so obsessed with the antiseptic nature of the cushions they were in and the sealed environments, which I think they got smaller and smaller over time. And so the last scene of Tom and Shiv was in a sealed car with them. Like they're protected. And then you have the other character by himself by the river. And then every character was by themselves except for one who was in a bar with people. You never saw them with other people. And so I think one of the things that carried over for me was, was that these people were alone, which I thought was very. I don't know if you meant it or not.
- [50:35]
Jesse Armstrong
Yeah, I mean, and I think it is tough to form connections. I think rich, rich kids of very rich people have particular problems, right. Figuring out what their friendships mean, who they should be friends with and why, and why people want connections with them. I think that's a particular form of insanity inducing paranoia and double thinking that they're subject to these guys. You know, they. The one thing that they have going for their friendships are. And why I think there is something to this group is years. You just get those years, right. Accumulating a bit. Like in Mike White has his character say at the. In, you know, the three women in the White Lotus and they sort of mean something. And even when everything else is a load of bullshit, the fact that they have known each other and have known each other when they were a little bit less successful, that is the one thing that is true about their relationship.
- [51:32]
Kara Swisher
True.
- [51:32]
Jesse Armstrong
And so that's something I have for them to play with.
- [51:35]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. And they need each other. Like the last two, the two, when they're merging their companies, they kind of need each other.
- [51:40]
Jesse Armstrong
They need each other because who do you call? Who do you go and have a drink with? Who do you invite to your fucking barbecue? You need a list, Right?
- [51:47]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [51:48]
Jesse Armstrong
Often people.
- [51:49]
Kara Swisher
I won't say there's a billionaire who's having a wedding soon, but several people have been invited who they don't know. And they called me. They're like, why was I invited? I've never met them. I'm like, it's so sad. So sad. Like people you would invite. I know, right, right.
- [52:03]
Jesse Armstrong
That's great.
- [52:04]
Kara Swisher
That's great. I was like, do you. They're like. I was like, do you know them? They're like, met once. I was like, oh, wow, ouch.
- [52:11]
Jesse Armstrong
I've got the liver printing. I've got the holding a newborn over a B day, hoping for it to poop. And I've got inviting people to your wedding you've never met.
- [52:20]
Kara Swisher
Take it all.
- [52:21]
Jesse Armstrong
I've got another episode. Let's take it to kc.
- [52:23]
Kara Swisher
That's true. All right, my last question. Is tech a winner take all? Is life now winner take all game? And if so, who wins?
- [52:32]
Jesse Armstrong
Huh? Well, I guess, I guess that's the. It feels like the economy is a winner take all economy. Right. And that's one of, that's part of the reason for the wave of populism we got all over the world. And tech it is, right? I mean probably one of the AI firms or AI arms with within a tech firm is gonna do it and is gonna come up with a model which is world beating and they probably will be the monopolist. Don't you think so?
- [53:04]
Kara Swisher
I do. That's why they're sucking up to Trump. Because it matters right now.
- [53:07]
Jesse Armstrong
It matters right now. Yeah. So I am scared of that kind of world.
- [53:12]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't want any of them to run. At one point, Mark Zuckerberg was talking about. You did references in China about China. They always use China's excuse, right? Always. And Mark Zuckerber, he was doing that. Oh, if the Chinese get ahead, if this and this and that. And I said, oh, is this a Xi or me argument? And he goes, well, it is. I said, I don't like either choice. I mean I guess you if I had to pick, but I really don't wanna pick. But yeah, you're right, one of them is gonna be the most powerful and that's troubling. Cause they're so flawed as people as anyone would be. There's not a person who should have that power and they're worth, unfortunately. Anyway, on that happy note, it was wonderful, wonderful movie. Are you happy with it? Are you happy?
- [54:00]
Jesse Armstrong
I am, yeah. I'm sort of wary of looking at the response. I'll be interested once it cools down and I feel able to check it all out. I'll be really interested to see perfect timing you make of it. But the way you talk about the movie is how I hope people would think and talk about the movie. And you know this world as well as anyone, so. So I'm very. That's nice and lovely to chat to you right now.
- [54:21]
Kara Swisher
I'm a little meaner to you because. But I've had it with them. I've had to deal with them in real life. What are you working on next?
- [54:27]
Jesse Armstrong
Going back to the things I was trying to write before this sort of sideswiped me. So a bit of prose and a movie that I promise 90% won't be about rich people.
- [54:37]
Kara Swisher
Oh, okay, great. I don't really care. It's fine as long as it's flawed people who are sad and troubled. I like it and funny. Anyway. A comedy about the end day of the the world. Thank you so much.
- [54:49]
Jesse Armstrong
Thank you so much. Really lovely to chat.
- [54:55]
Kara Swisher
On With Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro, Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Allison Rogers and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's Executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Anika Robbins. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you wear the Laurel crown. If not, it's the soup ladle chain for you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
- [55:37]
C
Support for this show comes from Pure Leaf Iced Tea when you find yourself in the afternoon sun lump, you need the right thing to make you bounce back. You need Pure Leaf iced tea. It's real brewed tea made in a variety of bold flavors with just the right amount of naturally occurring caffeine. You're left feeling refreshed and revitalized so you can be ready to take on what's next. The next time you need to hit the reset button, grab a Pure Leaf iced tea. Time for a tea break. Time for a Pure Leaf.