On Trump’s “Day One” Promises: Former DHS Sec. Alejandro Mayorkas Talks Immigration, Terrorism, and Cybersecurity Threats

Summary

Podcast Summary: On Trump's “Day One” Promises: Former DHS Sec. Alejandro Mayorkas Talks Immigration, Terrorism, and Cybersecurity Threats

Episode Details:

• Title: On Trump’s “Day One” Promises: Former DHS Sec. Alejandro Mayorkas Talks Immigration, Terrorism, and Cybersecurity Threats
• Host: Kara Swisher
• Release Date: January 20, 2025
• Podcast: On with Kara Swisher by Vox Media

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Introduction and Context

Kara Swisher opens the episode on the day of President Trump's inauguration, contextualizing the discussion around Trump's "Day One" promises, particularly focusing on immigration. She introduces her guest, Alejandro Mayorkas, the outgoing Secretary of Homeland Security (DHS), highlighting his historic role as the first immigrant and first Latino in the position. Swisher sets the stage for an in-depth conversation about the challenges and controversies Mayorkas faced during his tenure.

---

Personal Impact of Natural Disasters

Discussion on California Wildfires

• Timestamp: 05:20

  Swisher inquires about the recent devastating wildfires in Southern California, particularly in Mayorkas’s hometown of Los Angeles. Mayorkas responds with personal empathy:

  "It is devastating... It is heartbreaking. It is not, though, the first disaster that I have been exposed to in this job." (05:20)

• Analysis:

  Mayorkas emphasizes his long-term experience with disasters, noting the increasing frequency and severity but also the consistent human toll they take.

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Misinformation and Disaster Response

Challenges of Misinformation

• Timestamp: 06:25 - 09:39

  Swisher challenges Mayorkas on former President Trump's claim that lack of FEMA funding led to uncontrolled fires. Mayorkas counters by stressing the necessity of unity and accurate information:

  "Historically, tragedies have actually driven unity... That unfortunately has not held true in recent times." (06:25)

  He elaborates on the department’s efforts to combat misinformation, especially during disasters, highlighting the complexity of the modern social media landscape:

  "It is an uphill battle in the social media environment... But we have a responsibility to undertake that fight." (08:05)

---

Handling Security Threats and Extremism

Terrorism and Domestic Extremism

• Timestamp: 13:07 - 15:37

  Swisher shifts focus to national security, asking about the rise in terrorist activities and extremist ideologies. Mayorkas categorizes threats into foreign terrorism, domestic extremism, and cyber threats from nation-states:

  "We have both the persistent threat of foreign terrorism, we have a domestic violent extremism, and we also have the malevolent actions of nation states." (14:42)

• Analysis:

  Mayorkas underscores the multifaceted nature of current threats, indicating a high danger level due to overlapping and concurrent threat vectors.

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The Drone Dilemma

Regulating Unidentified Drones

• Timestamp: 15:37 - 18:08

  Addressing recent drone sightings, Swisher questions the effectiveness of current DHS authority. Mayorkas responds by advocating for responsible regulation rather than indiscriminate actions:

  "I would not advocate shooting down drones indiscriminately." (17:31)

  He criticizes Congress for inaction despite escalating drone-related issues:

  "Congress has not acted. That is most unfortunate." (17:23)

---

Immigration Policies and Political Fallout

Facing Bipartisan Criticism

• Timestamp: 22:16 - 32:24

  Swisher probes into the intense political attacks Mayorkas faced, including impeachment efforts and lawsuits. Mayorkas defends his record by contextualizing immigration trends and systemic challenges:

  "The world is experiencing the highest level of human displacement since World War II... The fentanyl crisis was a crisis that was building for years before our administration." (29:41)

  He rebuffs claims that his policies directly led to political shifts favoring Trump, emphasizing broader global and pre-existing issues.

• Notable Quote:

  "Immigration has always been an electric and a divisive issue politically." (22:16)

---

Response to Proposed Legislation

House Republicans' Lake and Riley Act

• Timestamp: 36:39 - 38:17

  Swisher discusses the recent passage of the Lake and Riley Act by House Republicans, which seeks to grant states more authority over undocumented immigrants. Mayorkas expresses partial support while highlighting potential logistical challenges:

  "Certain elements I support... but there's going to have to be additional resourcing of the government to bring this act to life." (36:39)

  He warns against unintended consequences, such as overwhelming detention facilities with individuals accused of minor offenses.

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Personal Reflections and Empathy

Mayorkas’s Background and Empathy for Migrants

• Timestamp: 38:17 - 40:21

  Swisher delves into Mayorkas's personal history as the child of immigrants fleeing oppressive regimes. Mayorkas shares how his upbringing fosters a deep empathy for migrants:

  "I understand that very important human question and the consequences of fear and the materialization of the reason for that fear." (38:48)

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Cybersecurity and CISA

Threats in the Cyber Realm

• Timestamp: 42:08 - 44:19

  The conversation moves to cybersecurity, specifically the potential dismantling of the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA). Mayorkas emphasizes CISA's critical role in protecting national infrastructure:

  "It is a critical agency run by professionals." (43:04)

  He warns that dismantling CISA amidst rising cyber threats would be irresponsible and detrimental to national security.

---

Department of Homeland Security Structure

Arguments Against Breaking Up DHS

• Timestamp: 46:57 - 49:28

  Swisher raises calls from both political spectrums to break up or significantly reform DHS. Mayorkas defends the department's integrated structure, arguing that the convergence of homeland and national security functions under one roof enhances efficiency and responsiveness:

  "I disagree with the interest in breaking apart the Department of Homeland Security... I do not support breaking it apart." (46:57)

  He provides examples of inter-agency collaboration during emergencies, underscoring the benefits of the current organizational framework.

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Looking Ahead: Transition and Legacy

Challenges and Transition to Successor

• Timestamp: 50:54 - 52:29

  In the final segment, Swisher asks about the transition to Kristi Noem, Trump's pick to lead DHS. Mayorkas outlines the ongoing challenges Noem will face, including heightened security threats and the need for cohesive multi-agency efforts:

  "I think that is a primary area of focus for the incoming administration." (50:54)

  He expresses confidence in Noem's substantive engagement while reiterating his own commitment to public service as he explores future opportunities.

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Closing Remarks

Kara Swisher wraps up the interview by thanking Mayorkas for his service and contributions to the Department of Homeland Security. She highlights the breadth of topics covered, from immigration and natural disasters to cybersecurity and departmental reforms, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the complex challenges faced by DHS under Mayorkas's leadership.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Immigration has always been an electric and a divisive issue politically." – Alejandro Mayorkas (22:16)
• "The truth is not an enemy. I have found it to be a tool of progress." – Alejandro Mayorkas (09:39)
• "I am a relentless optimist, so you will not hear the word hopeless from me too often." – Alejandro Mayorkas (09:45)

---

Conclusion: This episode of "On with Kara Swisher" offers an in-depth exploration of Alejandro Mayorkas's tenure as Secretary of Homeland Security. Through candid discussions, Mayorkas addresses the multifaceted challenges of immigration reform, national security threats, misinformation in disaster response, and the structural integrity of DHS. His insights provide valuable perspectives on the intersection of policy, politics, and personal experience in shaping U.S. homeland security strategies.

Transcript

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

The breaking news is that I've decided to stay.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll inform the Trumps. Hi, everyone. From New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. Happy Martin Luther King Jr. Day. And happy inauguration. Depending on who you are. Yes, depending on who you are. And keep warm there in Washington. I'm actually in Miami right now taping this. I had to get out of Dodge. Today is in fact the first day of President Trump's term, at least starting at noon. I'm not gonna say how I feel about this. I think I'll just reflect in the content we create here at on and at Pivot. I have no advice for people except hold on. But all incoming presidents make big promises of everything they'll do on day one. Of course, immigration has been at the top of Trump's promise to close borders, begin mass deportations and more. And reporting on that has already started about actions he could be taking almost immediately. But what does that really mean? My guest today is one of the few people who can answer that question. Outgoing Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas. Mayorkas is the first immigrant and first Latino to be confirmed in the position. After many years of public service, in the late 1990s, he became the youngest U.S. attorney in the country in his home state of California. In 2009, President Obama brought him on as director of the U.S. citizenship and Immigration Services. In Obama's second term, Mayorkas became Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security. And he was President Biden's pick to lead the department. To be clear, DHS is a $115 billion federal agency that oversees a lot immigration, the border disaster response, federal protection, cybersecurity, and anti terror. Some have advocated for its dissolution. And as a man tasked with overseeing some of the nation's most contentious issues, Mayorkas has been under pressure more than most in Washington, including becoming the first cabinet member to be impeached by the house in nearly 150 years. Our expert question today comes from one of the few Republicans who voted against that impeachment, former Colorado Congressman Ken Buck. Just a note. We recorded this interview on Thursday, January 16, the day before Mayorkas potential successor, South Dakota Governor Chris Noem, had her Senate confirmation hearings. So he didn't get a chance to ask Mayorkas about what he thought of Noem's comments about dhs. For example, her claim that it has a reputation of being broken and dysfunctional. I'm not sure what to say about Noem, but Mayorkas, as you'll see was very kind to her and is hoping for the best. And there was a lot of ground to cover with the outgoing secretary besides Kristi Noem's various and sundry insults, including what he makes of the feasibility of many of Trump's proposals. So stick around. Nerds Support for the show comes from nerdwallet when it comes to finding the best financial products, have you ever wished that someone would do the heavy lifting for you? Take all that research off your plate? Well, with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, that wish has finally come true. The nerds at NerdWallet have reviewed more than 1100 financial products like credit cards, saving accounts, and more to highlight and bring you only the best of the best. Check out the 2025 Best of Awards [e-mail] awards this episode is brought to you by Shopify. Forget the frustration of picking commerce platforms when you switch your business to Shopify, the global commerce platform that supercharges your selling Wherever you sell. With Shopify, you'll harness the same intuitive features, trusted apps, and powerful analytics used by the world's leading brands. Sign up today for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com tech. All lowercase. That's shopify.com tech this episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, Lifelock's restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals with Lifelo. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply. It is on Secretary Mayorkas, welcome. Thanks for being on on.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Thank you so much for having me, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

So I don't know if you know this, I'm doing all the exit interviews for the Biden administration. No, I'm. No, not necessarily. But I have wanted to talk to you. We met before and we're speaking on January 16th, one of your last few days in office. While other folks may be tying up loose ends, as head of dhs, you've had some big events to deal with in your final weeks, including w fires in Southern California. Los Angeles is your hometown, by the way. I just would love to hear about your thoughts on the fires there. What's it like for you seeing, say, Palisades ablaze?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Kara, it is devastating. I know many people who have lost their homes, not only in the Palisades but in the Eden fire in Pasadena and the Altadena area, I see and speak with people who've lost all their possessions, their mementos. It is heartbreaking. It is not, though, the first disaster that I have been exposed to in this job. While it is closer to home, if you will, the impacts elsewhere have sometimes been even more devastating.

[Kara Swisher]

So the fires have been called the most destructive in California history. And we've had some very destructive fires. I recall the ones up in the north a couple years ago were terrifying. I have a home up there. Incoming President elect Trump falsely claimed that one of the reasons they're out of control is there's, quote, no money in fema. I'd love to know what's your opinion of what's to blame and if you could have done more to buffer this.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Frankly, I'm not aware, Kara, of anything to blame right now. I will say the following. Historically, tragedies have actually driven unity of a perspective of care, of effort, and of words. That unfortunately has not held true in recent times. And I think it's very, very sad, number one. Number two, it's not the time for inaccurate information that only corrodes confidence in the services that are being provided and can be provided. We really do need a level of return to a level of unity.

[Kara Swisher]

Talk to me a little bit about what you do when you're in an environment. You're in a misinformation environment, a propaganda environment, a basic lies environment, which does erode people, and especially when people are particularly vulnerable.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Yes. And we saw that quite powerfully in North Carolina where there was disinformation.

[Kara Swisher]

These are the floods.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Yes. Where fema, we had to draw people, FEMA people from the field because they were at risk when in fact they were sacrificing themselves for the benefit of others. What we do is we disseminate accurate information as most effectively as we can so people understand that there is a reliable source of information upon which they can base their important life decisions. At a time of tragedy, that is.

[Kara Swisher]

What we can do, but it doesn't work. I mean, even you've been overwhelmed by social media. I think another Cabinet member has said that it's impossible to push back on. Do you find that to be the case?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I would say that it is an imperative to push back on it, to disseminate accurate information. And the effectiveness of our efforts varies considerably according to a number of factors. And it is an uphill battle in the social media environment. The digital literacy of the audience, which is obviously not monolithic, but Quite, quite varied. I mean, there are a number of different factors. It is a tough landscape on which to fight, but, I mean, we have a responsibility to undertake that fight.

[Kara Swisher]

What if the owners of these social media sites are either allowing the information to proliferate or pushing it out themselves? I'm speaking of Elon Musk and X or over at Facebook, which now they've sort of removed all the guardrails.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I have never thought the truth to be an enemy. I have found it to be a tool of progress. And I will say within the Department of Homeland Security, what I say is, do not shrink from criticism. Just work very hard not to deserve it. Criticism that is valid drives accountability. Accountability should drive progress. But to be a vehicle of mis and disinformation, I find it to be irresponsible.

[Kara Swisher]

Does the government have any ability not to be in an uphill battle of this? Is it hopeless from your point of view?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I am a relentless optimist, so you will not hear the word hopeless from me too often. This now gets into a broader issue, Kara, but you know, the government needs to more swiftly and effectively harness technology and modern tools in order to be effective in an increasingly technological and modernized world. And so I do not say it is hopeless. I just think, for example, we need to be more nimble and more present on social media, and we need to really discover new ways to reach people who right now we find ourselves not accessing.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, but someone who's good at this. Governor Gavin Newsom still, and he's very active, and of course, he's quite nimble at these things. He still, I think, believes he's fighting a losing battle here. He said he's worried the President Elect Trump will withhold disaster relief. Talk about what impact that would have. And a lot of congresspeople are talking about it and saying, well, hurricanes you can't prevent, but forest fires you can. They've all kinds of nonsensical ideas around bringing disaster relief in. Can you talk a little about what impact that would have?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Well, if disaster relief is withheld, there is a micro impact and there's a macro impact. The micro impact could be, for example, that individuals do not receive immediate needs funding, whether it's $770 to be able to buy clothes, a baby formula, or whatever the immediate needs are, then we have the more widespread point of an inability to rebuild entire communities. That has an extraordinary human impact as well as a national impact in terms of the economic prosperity of a community and how it contributes to a broader economic prosperity of our country. If FEMA does not have the funds, we are not removing. And when I say we, the government, state, local, federal government, the ecosystem is not removing hazardous debris, non hazardous debris, clearing the areas and rebuilding entire communities, homes, businesses, schools, institutions of different faith denominations.

[Kara Swisher]

What's your reaction to these, these threats?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I actually, I don't believe that they will materialize. I think the outstanding question, according to the rhetoric is will strings be attached? Then the question is what are those strings and how responsible are they from a policy perspective? Are they political strings? Are they other strings? I just, I don't know what to expect.

[Kara Swisher]

What if they're political? Like we don't want you to use they them anymore. We don't. We want it to attach it to.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Whatever Relief in response to human tragedy should not be politicized, full stop.

[Kara Swisher]

And how do you feel about people who do that?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Personally irresponsible government to do that.

[Kara Swisher]

To do that, yes. So you've also had to deal with potential terrorist attacks. On New Year's Day, 14 people were killed in New Orleans by a U.S. army veteran claiming for his support of ISIS. DHS is dealing with combined threats from foreign terrorism, adverse adverse nation states, and increasingly over the past 10 years from homegrown violent extremism. Are you concerned about an ISIS resurgence abroad and in the us we are.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

And let me break those two apart. So the situation in Syria, for example, has the potential to fuel an ISIS resurgence in that country. And of course that has a potential to metastasize. So yes, indeed we are concerned. Then there is the issue, Kara, of individuals already resident in the United States radicalized to violence by the ISIS ideology, which we see evidenced in the tragic attack of January 1, 2025. And by the way, when we speak of a radicalization to violence domestically, it is not just foreign terrorist ideologies, as we have observed most unfortunately and tragically, we see ideologies of hate, anti government sentiment, false narratives, personal grievance, different motivations that have driven people to radicalize the violence domestically.

[Kara Swisher]

So in leaving the office right now, how do you assess the danger right now from all these various and sundry directions?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Essentially extremely high. Extremely high. Because what we have is a convergence of different threat vectors, in other words, the simultaneity of them. We have both the persistent threat of foreign terrorism, we have a domestic violent extremism, and we also have the malevolent actions of nation states. Whether it's the cyber attacks emanating from the People's Republic of China, whether it's Iran's persistent effort to Avenge the assassination of Soleimani, whether it's Russia's interest in retaliating for American support of Ukraine, an important ally. So those are three what I would describe as primary, but not certainly exclusive, threat vectors. Coexistent.

[Kara Swisher]

So let's not leave out the drones. You've had quite a busy last few months. There's been a large number of mysterious drone sightings, especially in New Jersey, in recent months. In December, Trump posted on Truth Social that the drones should be shot down if the government doesn't know where they're from. You've been calling on Congress to expand DHS's authority to deal with drones for years. There's all kinds of issues of people being hurt on the ground. But why hasn't the Biden administration been able to get this done? Do you think Trump is right? Is shooting down drones the way to go?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Well, a couple things. First of all, with respect to the drone sightings in New Jersey, actually, the existence of drones flying in the airspace is not an anomaly. Drones are being flown all over the country, all the time. And so I think that that was a, if you will, a non event. And I will say that it is a fair question to ask whether the government communicated robustly enough and swiftly enough to tamp down what became a phenomena. A phenomena.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Number one. Number two, we have advocated to Congress to expand authorities to align with the expansive use of drones as well as the increasing sophistication of them. Congress has not acted. That is most unfortunate. Third, when one shoots down a drone, one better be sure that one is shooting down a drone in a responsible and safe manner, because, quite frankly, certain drones are heavy, are big, and if they fall to the ground, they can cause a lot of damage, including a loss of human life.

[Kara Swisher]

So you would not advocate shooting down drums indiscriminately, Correct?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I would not advocate shooting down drones indiscriminately.

[Kara Swisher]

Why hasn't Congress passed that? The ability for you to regulate drones in a more responsible way?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Well, we're not at risk of overstating Congress's inability to act in areas that require action. Be that as it may, some concerns have been expressed about an invasion of privacy in our seeking drone authority, and I think that is actually a misperception.

[Kara Swisher]

That you want to use the drones to spy on people, presumably.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Correct?

[Kara Swisher]

Correct.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Correct. I. I just think it's a mistaken concern.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Nerds.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Alejandro Mayorkas]

First of all, immigration has always been an electric and a divisive issue politically. So I did know going in that it would be so that this would not be an anomalous time. I was prepared for a divisive issue. I will say this, that the extent of the divisiveness and how that divisiveness manifested itself did surprise me. But nevertheless, I stayed the course. And I will say that my ability to endure it is predicated on a very simple fact. And when one has 100% confidence in the integrity of one's decisions decision making, then one can take the heat.

[Kara Swisher]

Take the heat. Did either side bother you more than the other?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

That's an interesting question, Kara. I would say that there were times when both sides, if you will, crossed a line of decency.

[Kara Swisher]

Any particular thing you would point to?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Well, I think that there were certain things said and propagated on social media that were extremely pernicious and of course, absolutely false. And that has been on one side of the equation. On the other side of the equation, an invasion of my personal life is unacceptable.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, let's talk about the decision making though You've been touting positive immigration numbers in your other ex interviews. That number of migrants at the border have been declining for the past six months. And ICE deportations reportedly jumped to a 10 year high last year, over 270,000. But President Biden waited until last June to address the broken immigration system through executive actions after Trump tanked the bipartisan border bill, which Kamala Harris talked about quite a bit. Was it too little, too late? Were you frustrated it took too long? And were you pushing for Biden to act sooner?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Gary, let me first on the number of removals. The term used to be deportations, but the number of removals and returns, 270,000 is from ICE custody. But if one takes a look at.

[Kara Swisher]

I said ice.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Yeah, yeah, we had over 700,000 removals and returns, the most in I think 14 years. A couple things. The president took executive action in June of last year, in June of 2024, and we swiftly and effectively executed it. Let's think about where we were in 2021. We were in the midst still of the pandemic and the public health authority that sprung from that outbreak of the pandemic. A public health authority that President Elect and former President Trump actually instituted was under Title 42, the United States Code, an authority held by Health and Human Services. Everyone was advocating that we continue to enforce that public health authority. And we did so. And we actually lifted that authority in May of 2020. And then we turned immediately to seeking supplemental funding for what everyone agrees is a broken immigration system. We sought supplemental funding for that broken system from Congress. Didn't get it. We tried again, didn't get it. Entered into the bipartisan Senate negotiations which yielded a transformative piece of legislation that was then politically torpedoed. And the President moved swiftly with the executive action. So that's one leg of the stool, if you will. Secondly, our ability to effectively and swiftly implement the President's proclamation, the executive order that he took in June of last year, was built over time. We did not have the system, did not have the capacity to effectively implement it in 21 and 2022. And we're speaking of the ability to remove or return individual to countries all over the world swiftly. The ability to have the transportation assets, the soft sided facilities that we built, modernizing our systems, building safe and lawful pathways. And why that last part is so important, because as we restrict asylum at the border, we still have to adhere to our country's proud traditions and values of providing humanitarian relief to those in need who qualify under our laws. And so we built those pathways, whether they be labor pathways, negotiated with Canada and Spain, whether they be parole processes for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans and Venezuelans, whether it be safe mobility offices in a number of countries in Latin America, whether it be rebuilding our refugee system so we can admit 100,000 refugees into the United States, a system by which I and my family benefited. So it is a mosaic of factors that really have to be considered when one looks at the timeline.

[Kara Swisher]

So you didn't want him to act sooner. Did you feel like the Biden administration should, did not see this coming? I mean, Trump tanking the bipartisan border bill should not have been a surprise, I mean, especially in an election year.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I'll leave it to the political scientists to speak of whether it was too little too late. And the reason I say that is because there are different theories about the importance at the end of the day of the immigration issue in the presidential and other downstream down ballot elections. Many pundits believe that the economy was the single most important reason, full stop, but politically too little, too late. I think it'd be fair to say from a political perspective.

[Kara Swisher]

Speaking of that, how interesting you say that, cuz there were three House Republicans that broke ranks to vote no in the final impeachment vote. One of them was former Colorado Congressman Ken Buck. He sent us a question for you. Have a listen. Secretary Mayorkas, during your tenure as the Secretary of Homeland Security and as a result of your policies regarding border security, the number of migrants crossing our southern border increased dramatically. And the placement of those migrants into the interior of this country put an enormous burden on cities and states. The number of migrant children brought into the country by human traffickers increased dramatically. The amount of fentanyl brought across the southern border increased dramatically, resulting in a severe increase in 18 to 40 year old deaths. The lack of border security and the related immigration issues were the primary reason that President Elect Trump used to win the November election. Will you accept responsibility for Trump's popular vote victory in November?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Okay, so Kara, let me, it is.

[Kara Swisher]

Ken Buck, but I think it's a fair question. I mean he's saying use, you were saying economy. He's saying no, no, it's the, it's these. No, I'm not migrants in the middle of cities.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I am, I am not going to posit what led to a Republican victory and a Democratic defeat. That is for political scientists and as I mentioned, some have opined that the economy was the most important reason. But let me break down, let me break down former Congressman Buck's statements. First of All. Let me put immigration and what we have experienced in its proper context, okay? The world is experiencing the highest level of human displacement since World War II. And what our border experienced is not exclusive to our southern border. It is a phenomenon that countries around the world have experienced and are experiencing, number one. Number two, the trend in displacement did not begin in 2021. In 2018, there were approximately 500,000 individuals encountered at our southern border. And in 2019, that number almost doubled. The path of increasing displacement because of events in countries of origin was underway. And then, of course, the COVID 19 pandemic broke out, which changed human behavior in a myriad of ways, including the behavior of individuals willing to flee their home countries, number one. Number two, the fentanyl crisis was a crisis that was building for years before our administration. And we have seen more than 70,000 overdose deaths in a single year. I believe in 2019 or 2020, there were over 50,000 overdose deaths. And let's not conflate migration with the scourge of fentanyl. Fentanyl smuggled into our country predominantly through our ports of entry in vehicles, commercial or passenger. And so let's not conflate the two.

[Kara Swisher]

That is an inaccurate migrants coming over with drugs.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Yes, yes. And so I take issue with former Congressman Buck's statements in at least those regards.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, he is not the only one who, though, wants to hold you personally responsible. I've never quite seen anything like this. On January 14th, the Oklahoma State School superintendent filed a lawsuit against you and Peter Flores, the deputy director, for $474 million, which is that he claims failed border policies have cost the state. Any comments on this? Oh, yes, this is somewhat unprecedented. This is somewhat.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Look, the rhetoric of politics has been descending for years now. Regrettably, we continue to see that trend. And the reality is that because of my position, I've been out in front as a representative of the administration. And so those two forces combine, and we see the results. But, Kara, Congressman Buck also spoke of what the cities and communities in the interior of the United States experience. Where a focus should be, is and should have been at an increased level, is the fact that a governor of one state.

[Kara Swisher]

Florida.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

No, no, actually Texas.

[Kara Swisher]

Texas. Okay, Texas.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

And it's true of others. You are correct to cite Florida. You're absolutely right. I had one particularly in mind because of unmatched scale and scope of this, deliberately refused to communicate, collaborate and coordinate with interior cities and communities and instead unilaterally used migrants, vulnerable individuals, as political pawns and bus them to those interior Cities for the express purpose of wreaking havoc. That is not a model of governance.

[Kara Swisher]

Did it work?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

It seems to have worked to a degree in terms of the political impact that the governor sought. However, when you ask me if it worked from a societal perspective, from the perspective of national interest, from the perspective of responsible and rational governance. Calamity.

[Kara Swisher]

Calamity. I don't think that was. I think that was not his concern. This episode is airing on the day of President Trump's inauguration. Trump has made a lot of promises for day one, including closing the border, reinstating travel bans, suspending refugee admissions to the country, ending birthright citizenship, beginning mass deportations. Which of these policies is most concerning to you? Are there any you think are good that would have been useful for you?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Well, look, the last pre pandemic year of President Trump, Trump's administration, the numbers at the border are averaging lower on a daily basis than they than they were in 2019 and at times in 2020, even during a pandemic year. So the border is more secure now than it was then. You referenced a series of policies. I am deeply concerned about all of them. In certain regards, I'm unclear as to what actually will materialize.

[Kara Swisher]

I was going to ask that next.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Because, for example, I have also heard statements that, for example, they are going to focus their deportation efforts on individuals who pose a public safety or national security concern. Well, that is precisely what we have done. So that would be status quo. And something tells me that the status quo will not prevail.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So Republicans also now control Congress. Last week, the House passed the Lake and Riley Act. The bill would give states more authority over undocumented immigrants. It would mandate federal detention without bail for immigrants arrested of even petty crimes like theft over $100. This is not what you were talking about, including immigrants who have visas and other authorization. And it restates the ability to bring immigration lawsuits against dhs. What are your thoughts on this bill?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

So certain elements I support. As I mentioned, people who present a public safety threat should be removed. Individuals who have committed crimes in certain circumstances should absolutely be detained pending their immigration enforcement proceedings. I have concerns about some of the authorities granted to states in terms of litigation efforts. I also. There's going to have to be additional resourcing of the government to bring this act to life. Otherwise it could actually create a law enforcement weakness. So, for example, if individuals who have committed minor offenses have to be detained, unless that is a funded mandate, we are only funded for 35 to 40,000 detention beds. So are we Going to displace people who have committed worse crimes.

[Kara Swisher]

So this is individuals who are accused but not convicted of petty crimes. Yeah. Meaning you're putting, putting non dangerous people.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

In nonviolent people and perhaps that could displace an individual who has in fact committed or is accused of committing a violent crime. It's a zero sum game with 35 to 40,000 detention beds. And so a mandate to do X must be a funded mandate. And so I expect that Congress will fund the federal government to actually fulfill the mandate, which has not been the case for decades now.

[Kara Swisher]

So on a personal note, you were the first immigrant to head dhs. Your mother fled the Nazis to get to Cuba and your parents then fled the Castro regime to come to the US when you're just a baby. My grandfather came here as a baby also. From your perspective, what has it meant for you to overcome? Oversee immigration? Do you empathize with what migrants are going through right now as they wait for these policies to be enacted? And has that been, I hate to say this, a weakness for you because you've been attacked for it, which has been unusual in my estimation.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Kara, it has not been a weakness at all. I was instilled. My parents instilled in me a deep sense of understanding of what it means to be a refugee, of what it means to be displaced from one's home, what it means to lose everything. I understand that. I will tell you that there are farm workers in my home state of California, parents that are breaking their backs to earn a living, however modest, to be able to present opportunities for their US citizen born children. Opportunities that the parents never had. And those parents very well may have been doing that backbreaking work for decades. And it is they who help put food on our tables. And will those parents now fear returning to the fields and picking crops under arduous conditions and making their modest living to deliver a better life for their children. I have an understanding of that very important human question and the consequences of fear and the materialization of the reason for that fear.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. All signs seem to indicate that one week from today, the United States will break from recent tradition and have a peaceful transition of power. It felt like a good time to assess Joe Biden's presidency, which his staff would have you believe is one of the most consequential in American history. FDR esque. I admire their loyalty to their boss, but I think Biden is a pretty mid tier mediocre president. I don't think he's awful I don't think he's he's a horrible threat to freedom. The way that you might hear on Truth Social, the main way I would describe Joe Biden is that he was an unusually weak president and he was, in many important moments, loathe to decide when we really needed a president to decide. And I think that that ultimately made him less effective than he could have been in the moment. The good, the bad, and the Biden. Vox's Dylan Matthews is going to help us assess on Today Explained Monday to Friday, wherever you listen. This week on Prof. G Markets, we speak with Andrew Ross Sorkin, editor at large of DealBook at the New York Times and co anchor of CNBC's Squawk Box. We discussed the key economic trends he's watching for Trump's second term, the evolving landscape of the AI market, and the rumors that China is considering selling TikTok to Elon Musk.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

If China is prepared to sell to Elon Musk and only to Elon Musk.

[Kara Swisher]

What does that say about the leverage.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

And influence that China must think that they have over Elon Musk by dint of his factories? And Tesla business is in the nation state that is China.

[Kara Swisher]

You can find that conversation and many others exclusively on the Prof. G Markets podcast. So I want to switch gears a bit. Cisa, the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Security Agency, is one of the agencies you're responsible for as Secretary of homeland security. Project 2025 calls for dismantling it. Obviously the person coming after you is Kristi Noem. What. What impact would that have on our ability to confront cyber threats? And just for people, CISA was widely criticized by Republicans for allegedly colluding with social media companies about disinformation on their platform. This is untrue. They claim that Americans, especially conservatives, are being censored. This is also untrue. As we talked about, X and Met have basically ended their voluntary third party fact checking system and content moderation programs. So what is the danger for CISA being dismantled? Essentially, to me, it's a critical agency run by professionals.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

You are 100% correct. It is a vitally important agency run by professionals. And to dismantle that agency now at a time when cyber attacks have only increased in frequency and gravity, at a time when the telecommunications industry is trying to climb out of the impacts of salt typhoon.

[Kara Swisher]

These are attacks by the Chinese government.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Yeah, attacks by the Chinese government that has exposed the personal information of American citizens to when ransomware is on the rise persistently cyber hacks that are undertaken for profit when our critical infrastructure is under attack, not just from a cyber threat, but a myriad of other threats by adverse nation states. What an irresponsible measure that would be. All predicated, by the way, on, as you noted, false narratives.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So from a national security press is very dangerous. Cuz they were helping a lot of state and federal officials also. So speaking of China, as you said, we're recording this on jail January 16th, as said just ahead of the TikTok ban going in. It's a law and it's going to be in effect. Reportedly Trump is considering executive order to extend the deadline. To me, that's just a press release on better letterhead. The TikTok CEO plans to attend his inauguration. I think he has very little moves here. It's a law and the companies will either abide by the law even if he doesn't enforce it. It's they could be held liable later. Things may take a different turn by the time this the Biden administration is even looking for a way to delay it. At least you've maintained. I wrote a column five years ago talking about this, that TikTok is a national security threat. But a lot of users don't seem to care. They're flocking to another Chinese social media app, RedNote. Is banning TikTok just a game of whack a mole? How do you look at the TikTok ban right now? It should have been broader in my.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Estimation, but I think the TikTok ban is a national imperative. A national security imperative. What will actually materialize? I have heard President Elect Trump's statements that he actually wants to go in a different direction. I don't know what that means. For the collision course.

[Kara Swisher]

He was against it before. He was for it.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, he used the John Kerry phrase.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

So I don't know what will be the outcome of this collision course of intent versus statutory authority. I think to some extent the pivot to a different Chinese app does seem to reflect a whack a mole phenomenon. And then the question is, do we continue to whack the moles or do we take a step back and say, okay, what could we do more holistically to address this challenge? And I don't know what the answer is.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't have any. What would you do if you could waive your wand?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I will need to get back to you on that. I don't want to answer precipitously, but I will tell you for right now, a whack a mole it is.

[Kara Swisher]

So, last few questions, the Department of Homeland Security encompasses two dozen agencies with around 260,000 employees. As we already highlighted with all these very different things, we're talking about immigration, drones, everything, emergency services, fema, Secret Service, cybersecurity. What do you make of calls to break up or at least significantly reform the department that are coming from both the right and the left? And how would you do it if you had to?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Kara, I disagree with the interest in breaking apart the Department of Homeland Security. It was brought together very quickly in the aftermath of the 911 tragedy. However, what I have spoken of over the past four years is an increased convergence of homeland security and national security, especially in a far more globalized world. I actually think that the department is more fit for purpose now than ever before. There is increased need for the different agencies to be under one roof because so many different equities are brought to bear when we have to address certain challenges. There's a greater level of symbiosis between and among the different agencies.

[Kara Swisher]

Some see it as a turducken. It's like too complicated. And of course before 911 they were too separate. Right?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

That's right. That's right. But there's an intertwinement, there's a symbiosis and there's a cohesion between and among different agencies within the Department of Homeland Security depending on the events and depending.

[Kara Swisher]

On the efforts like FEMA and Secret Service. I don't necessarily see.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Well, let me give you an example. The hurricanes and tornadoes that have struck different parts of our country. FEMA is on point in supporting the state and local authorities as they address extreme weather events. The United States Coast Guard lends tremendous search and rescue capabilities. TSA is able to pivot as it needs to recalibrate some of the processes it follows in the travel environment. Those are three agencies. Quickly, I just rattle off the bat. When the Secret Service is on point for the security of an incredibly complex international event, the UN General assembly in New York City. We draw upon different resources from the Department of Homeland Security to secure that effort.

[Kara Swisher]

Sure.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I can continue to describe the cohesiveness of our department. I think these agencies belong under one roof and I do not support breaking it apart.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I ask you one follow up and then I have a final question. You were under attack after the assassination attempt on then candidate Trump. An independent panel found there were deep flaws in the agency. The head of Secret Service, Kimberly Cheadle, resigned. Do you think, as some have said, that FEMA and the Secret Service should report directly to the White House?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

First of All I think those are missions that are not political. And I think the apolitical nature and chain of command should remain number one. Number two, I do not think it to be efficient for the White House to oversee operational agencies, which those are. The Secret Service, by the way, not only has its protective mission, but also has an important investigative, criminal investigative function. I do not think that the further balkanization of government serves efficiency or justice.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, last question. We talked of a variety of threats facing the U.S. let's be clear, they aren't your problem anymore. At the time of this taping, Trump's pick to lead DHS is South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem. We'll see if she gets approved of everything we talked about. What are the biggest challenges you're handing off to her? What do you think she should focus on first? And based on your conversations with her, I'd assume you've had them. What do you think she will focus on? And then what are you doing? You spent 30 years in government service on and off under both Obama and Biden. But first the first part and then the last part.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Kara, I would return to where we started. The greatest responsibility of this department is the safety and security of the American people. I think the threat landscape is dynamic and is a heightened one, as we discussed. And I think that is a primary area of focus for the incoming administration, not just the new secretary, but the entire federal government because it's a multi agency effort. I have been very impressed and encouraged by my conversations with Governor Noem in terms of her substantive engagement on the issues. We have discussed the January 1st terrorist attack. We have discussed the wildfires in California and we have spoken a number of times. And I am rooting for success. That is not to say that I embrace all of the policies as they have been expressed publicly, but I root for the success of the mission of this department.

[Kara Swisher]

And what are you going to do?

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I am going to explore my opportunities.

[Kara Swisher]

Back to California.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

I don't right now have that plan. That is not my plan right now. I will be geographically mobile. We'll see what the future brings. But I'm very proud of what we've done over the past four years.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Secretary Mayorkas, thank you so much and thank you for your service.

[Alejandro Mayorkas]

Thank you, Kara. Thanks so much.

[Kara Swisher]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor, Russell Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Birney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are geographically mobile, like the secretary. If not, you're playing Whack a Mole on Red Note. Go wherever you listen to your podcast, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.