← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:01]
Kara Swisher
I'm starting to agree with Tucker Carlson on this fake gay thing. No, I don't. No, I don't.
- [00:06]
Pete Buttigieg
Chasten has threatened. My husband has threatened to have my gay card revoked so many times. This is just gonna be the latest.
- [00:12]
Kara Swisher
We're gonna definitely have to report you after this one.
- [00:26]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Sw. My guest today.
- [00:33]
Kara Swisher
Is Pete Buttigieg, the former US Secretary.
- [00:35]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Of Transportation and former Democratic mayor of South Bend, Indiana. Buttigieg burst onto the national scene as.
- [00:42]
Kara Swisher
A 2020 candidate for the Democratic presidential.
- [00:44]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Nomination, and he's on the short list.
- [00:46]
Kara Swisher
Of Democrats expected to make a White.
- [00:48]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
House run in 2028.
- [00:50]
Kara Swisher
But if he chooses to go for.
- [00:51]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
It again, he'll face a much more.
- [00:53]
Kara Swisher
Fractured Democratic electorate than he did five years ago. The party is still divided over the.
- [00:57]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
War in Gaza and US Support for Israel, the reasons behind the Democratic Party's waning support among rural and minority voters and the continued fallout from Biden's decision to run again in 2024.
- [01:10]
Kara Swisher
I've interviewed Pete Buttigieg several times, including when he was on the upswing and also post his run when he was Transportation Secretary. So I've had a lot of insight into his development over time, and he still remains one of the most interesting candidates around in the Democratic field. He's also found a way to reach across the aisle in a way very few others have. We recorded this interview on Wednesday, September 17, just hours before the ATLANT reported on a second excerpt from Vice President Kamala Harris's upcoming book. In it, Harris says Buttigieg was her.
- [01:43]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
First choice to be a running mate.
- [01:45]
Kara Swisher
But she decided it would be, quote, too big a risk for a black woman to run with a gay man. Speaking to Politico Thursday, Buttigieg said he was surprised by Harris's comments and added.
- [01:55]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
That he believes in, quote, giving Americans more credit than that.
- [02:00]
Kara Swisher
Ouch. All right, let's get into my conversation with Pete Buttigieg.
- [02:04]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Our expert question comes from former Democratic turned independent West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin.
- [02:10]
Kara Swisher
The interview with Buttigieg was recorded in.
- [02:12]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Front of a live audience at the University of Michigan's Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy. Thanks to them for being such great hosts.
- [02:20]
Kara Swisher
So stick around.
- [02:29]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Support for this show comes from Smartsheet. Your team is innovative. Your team is ready to achieve the impossible. Innovative teams use Smartsheet to defy expectations, spur growth, and make the impossible possible. Smartsheet is a work management platform that allows teams to automate workflows and seamlessly adapt as their work evolves. Whether you're managing projects or scaling operations, Smartsheet gives you the tools to cut through chaos and reach your team's full potential. With Smartsheet, the extraordinary is just another day at work. Smartsheet Work with Flow See how Smartsheet can transform the way you work at smartsheet.com that's smartsheet.com Support for this show comes from Sensor Tower. Smart marketing teams use Sensor Tower to outperform their competitors. Do you? While you're stuck waiting on results, your competitors know what ads are working and where they're seeing, which apps are growing and which audiences are converting and which trends are exploding. Sensor Tower gives you digital advertising, mobile app, and web insights so you can move faster on your way to take market share. You can join global leaders like Procter and Gamble, Duolingo and Activision to get insights that make an impact on your marketing strategy. Learn more@sensortower.com Vox.
- [03:46]
Pete Buttigieg
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- [04:14]
Kara Swisher
Thank you for coming on on. I really appreciate it. I have lots to talk about. We're talking about the state of the Democratic Party, gerrymandering President Trump, the recent assassination of conservative commentator Charlie Kirk, and a range, a range of things. And there's a lot to talk about. So we're going to dive right in and I will say I'm really enjoying your train, daddy. Look, those of you who know know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking about.
- [04:42]
Pete Buttigieg
You're setting a tone for our whole time together.
- [04:43]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Exactly.
- [04:44]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about?
- [04:47]
Pete Buttigieg
Actually, no.
- [04:47]
Kara Swisher
Sorry. Oh, my God. It's the Gilded age train, daddy.
- [04:55]
Pete Buttigieg
Okay.
- [04:59]
Kara Swisher
He's an icon for gay men. Just so you know.
- [05:02]
Pete Buttigieg
Okay, I believe you.
- [05:03]
Kara Swisher
Okay, so let's get into serious issues. I'll send you. I'll send you something. Okay, so it's been a week. I'm gonna get more serious. Since Charlie Kirk was killed, you've condemned his killing as most leaders in the Democrat party have done. And you talked about the need to turn the rhettic around. But the opposite has happened, especially because including President Trump, Vice President Vance are sort of ginning up anger continually. So give us a sense of where you think the country is right now and where it's headed, or is it noise that is not really where the country is?
- [05:42]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, I think in the days since it happened, and first and foremost, we still have to begin with the fact that a man was killed, that a family was robbed of a father, and that should never have happened, and that should never happen to anyone. And I think that's. That's the only sane place to begin. I will say that we did see a truly bipartisan response, not a universal response by any means, but we saw leaders ranging from a conservative Republican like Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah, to Bernie Sanders on the left saying things that really rhymed with each other about why and how political violence is unacceptable, how terrifying it is that America is at this fork in the road. And I do think that what's happened next in terms of the response out of the White House, tees up a really challenging problem for those on my side of the aisle. And the problem is how do we authentically live up to the things all of us, or most of us are saying about doing our part to reject the use of violence and to turn down the temperature. And at the same time, you got to stand up to this stuff. If the White House is saying that they intend to use this as a basis for cracking down on their political opponents, you have to stand up to that. But I also think that that's less of a contradiction than it seems, that there are ways to be politically forceful and reject the use of force. And I think the way to think about it is that both of those things, our opposition to the way the White House is approaching this and our opposition to political violence come from our commitment to freedom. Part of what makes political violence crime, not just against the target, but against the country, is that it deprives our whole country of the freedom to have open, honest, safe, free political debate. And, of course, that's also the harm of any government, and certainly our government, using this or any other pretext to use the powers of the state to go after people not because. Or groups, not because they are physically dangerous, but because they are politically opposed to those in charge.
- [07:58]
Kara Swisher
So I think those things sit together by the reaction.
- [08:02]
Pete Buttigieg
Which reaction? The White House reaction.
- [08:03]
Kara Swisher
The first I happened, when I heard it, I thought, okay, good beginning. And then, oh, no, this is not.
- [08:09]
Pete Buttigieg
I mean, I wasn't exactly Getting my hopes up for him to suddenly transform into a unifying leader who would bring us all together. I mean, the simple fact is, even though the most important job of the President of the United States is to hold the American people together, he does not view this as part of his job description. He said as much. It's not important to him. And so we saw what we saw. Now, the other thing, of course, that I think is important is that he didn't talk about the fact that there has been so much political violence directed against people who are left of center. This same summer that is ending in September with the horrific killing of a conservative activist in Utah. Charlie Kirk began in June with a nationalist madman running around with a list of Democrats he wanted to kill. And he found some and killed them. Melissa Hortman and her husband in Minnesota and shot others. So a partisan response to something that should horrify us on a bipartisan basis is wrong. It's bad, and sadly, it is unsurprising on the part of the president.
- [09:17]
Kara Swisher
Why? From a political point of view, why do this? Because it's continuing. And advance has continued to pretty much spew inaccurate statistics and just keep repeating it over and over again. What is the strategy, from your perspective, if you were them?
- [09:37]
Pete Buttigieg
I'm doing my best to get into their heads and imagine what they're trying to do. I think, for one thing, it's easier. It would be difficult for them to acknowledge just how much political violence has been inspired by the right, or to even acknowledge just that this has happened in ways that have aligned with either side. But also part of their project is to assert total control over this country. Not just lead the government, but control everything. And this is something that is enabling them to try to do that even more. We've seen that sort of thing before. I mean, history teaches us some provocative incident then leads those in power to have a way to consolidate their power. And every step, if there's any cohesion, any pattern in what this president does, everything he does is about consolidating his own power.
- [10:39]
Kara Swisher
Will it work?
- [10:40]
Pete Buttigieg
It could. I mean, if he's actually able to use this as a pretext to undermine groups and people who are politically difficult for him that are not in any way associated with this or any other act of violence, but are a political problem for him. Given that you have a court that's unwilling to check his power and a Congress that is unwilling to check his power, that could happen. Having said that, it's also possible that something different happens, probably from the bottom up. Among the American people before it gets to Washington, rather than the other way around. But I'm thinking about the people that I was arguing over beers with in college who were libertarian or conservative. Maybe we're arguing about guns, maybe we're arguing. Sometimes we'd be arguing over something like, you know, the Clean Water act. And they would say, we can't have. That's tyranny. It's too much power for the federal government to have. Right. And then, and I can be a little sarcastic about that, but then they would say something like, look, you go down this road and sooner or later, someday you're gonna have masked federal agents walking down the street nabbing people because of op eds they wrote. Well, joke's on me, right? It didn't happen in the way they said it would, but something like that is happening right now. So I'm trying to appeal to folks of that turn of mind and say, this politically ought to be your Super Bowl. It's actually happening.
- [12:02]
Kara Swisher
Well, except that a lot of people are calling for cancel culture, like the people that originally had been so opposed to cancel culture, such as Attorney General Pam Bondi.
- [12:14]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah, it turns out they're against cancel culture selectively, which you just can't be. In the same way that you can't be against violence selectively. It's either right or it's wrong.
- [12:24]
Kara Swisher
You recently said social media is clearly part of the problem in a big way when it comes to political violence. Governor Cox from Utah said the same thing. He used the term cancer. It's obviously something I've talked about for, I think about 20 years now. I think you're both right. But we're not gonna see any tech regulation anytime soon, especially since they've spent a lot of time coddling President Trump with golden statues and million dollar donations and things like that. And putting your phone down puts the onus on the individual, not the companies themselves. So talk about how you change the social media equation.
- [13:02]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, we can't let the companies off the hook, but we also, just before I get into that, I would say can't let ourselves off the hook. So, yes, we are being manipulated down to the brain chemistry level by companies and algorithms, but we do have some level of agency that we ought to be smart about, in the same way that lots of things had to be done around tobacco, but one of them was labeling and education and other things that then helped people to make choices that were healthier. I'm not saying you should have left it on the individuals. Obviously the companies were responsible, but if you're just thinking about a broad spectrum, what are all the things we could be doing at the same time that would make a difference? One of them is certainly, let's think about anything and everything that we ourselves can control. But I agree that it's not fair to just expect the user, the individual, especially young users, to just shoulder that on themselves. I'm not as pessimistic as you are about the possibility of some kind of regulation or rules here. I get what you're saying, that they probably have a protector in the president.
- [14:06]
Kara Swisher
They had a protector in President Obama, too.
- [14:09]
Pete Buttigieg
Yes, in a different way and for different reasons, but. Yes, but back then it was that idea. Okay, we don't know where this is going to go. Let's let a thousand flowers bloom. Now we know. Right. And I think a lot of us who had really high hopes for the democratizing power of social media 20 years ago or even 10 years ago have been humbled by what's actually happened. But look, I actually think there's a really interesting, I'm not going to say consensus, but a lot of strange bedfellows coming together around think somebody like Josh Hawley, I can't imagine agreeing with him on almost anything, but you have figures like him on the right, Spencer Cox himself. Right. The law they passed in Utah, now the companies are fighting it, but a law that would do something about that. So I think if the American people turn on these companies, it won't be because of what they've done to harm our politics. It'll be because of what they have done to harm our kids.
- [15:06]
Kara Swisher
Correct.
- [15:07]
Pete Buttigieg
But either way, it could happen.
- [15:08]
Kara Swisher
What would you push? You can't sue them. There's no regulation against them. They have unlimited power, unlimited money, unlimited access. Now, the attempts by the Biden administration to push back on them were met with loss.
- [15:20]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah. I don't have all the answers, but something's.
- [15:23]
Kara Swisher
Which one of those many things would you do?
- [15:25]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, the Utah approach is to have some controls on exposure. I think that's a good place to start. The rules that again, are getting really interesting bipartisan support around phones in schools, that's just things that can at least get some measure of control for the most susceptible and vulnerable users. I do think whether it's returning to the now, I think, beaten to death conversation about Section 230 or some new frontier on that, we still have to talk about formal responsibility that companies bear liability. Yeah, yeah. Which is how America, for better, for worse, solves most problems related to irresponsible behavior and I think we should think about it. Sounds less like it has less teeth. And it's not. Doesn't work on its own. But I do think, like, naming or labeling things can have a lot of power, too. I learned this as somebody who was a watchdog on airlines. We had rules that airlines had to follow that we came up with. We had enforcement actions for violations when the airlines didn't follow the rules. But actually, one of the most powerful things we did in terms of changing airline behavior was we just put a bunch of information out about, like here, red X's and green check marks on a website that let everybody know, here's the airlines that will take care of you if you get delayed or need a meal or a hotel or something. And here's the ones that want. I couldn't believe how powerful that was. So I think all of these things have to travel together.
- [16:45]
Kara Swisher
Did you. When you think about doing that, are you surprised by the shift of tech companies toward Trump given the hostility they had towards the administration you worked in?
- [16:59]
Pete Buttigieg
I think the shift was well underway by the time the Biden administration was in office, or at least by the middle of that time. So by the end, I wasn't so surprised. Early on, I was. I mean, there were people who 10 years ago, I met when I was running for chair of the dnc, which means they weren't just Democrats, they were Democrats who cared enough about being a Democrat to care who the chair of the DNC is most people don't even think about on a regular basis, and went on to be Trump supporters or Trump fundraisers, I mean, that did shock me. I think I overestimated the extent to which they were serious about being libertarian, because I always knew they weren't maybe quite where I was politically, but I imagined that what they really cared about was freedom. And so to suddenly get on board with an administration that has stripped freedoms ranging from the freedom to choose that they destroyed the first time around to the freedoms of speech and association that they're going after now and over what, because we did too many DEI trainings? Maybe we did. That doesn't make it okay to turn against free speech if you're a libertarian.
- [18:10]
Kara Swisher
So how would you bring them back? They're powerful in every single aspect. And right now, Larry Ellison, he just bought CBS via his son. They're likely to try to buy CNN and Warner Brothers. He's getting TikTok. Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, et cetera, et cetera. They are consolidating power across many things. How do you get them back. Pretend I'm Elon Musk for a second.
- [18:38]
Pete Buttigieg
Oh, geez.
- [18:40]
Kara Swisher
What would you say to.
- [18:41]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, let's. Let's.
- [18:43]
Kara Swisher
Because you did make fun of Elon Musk. You said he's really sensitive. Too bad he didn't get to go to the CAR summit that set him off.
- [18:49]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah, look, we probably should have invited him to the car thing, but I want to bookmark the question of whether what we really need to do is to win them over or whether what we really need to do is have a policy framework where they can't dominate us. Ah, but I do think there is a case to be made, at least for the rank and file of Silicon Valley that's like. Wait a minute. Part of it's about the rule of law. You're riding a tiger that sooner or later will eat you too. Like, yeah, maybe you think you're benefiting right now because the President's too busy going after the easiest pickings, like universities or law firms that employ people who were inconvenient to him or broadcasters. But you can't imagine that you're going to play his game, and sooner or later he won't turn on you too.
- [19:32]
Kara Swisher
So that's the leopards will eat your face argument.
- [19:35]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah.
- [19:35]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [19:37]
Pete Buttigieg
I think there's also a case to be made that. That you can't have a functioning business in the long term, because I think part of the answer to why they turned is that they are business people, first and foremost, sometimes more interested in their business than. Than in the citizenship that. That I would hope would.
- [19:58]
Kara Swisher
Well, they want to live on Mars, so there's that.
- [20:01]
Pete Buttigieg
But I do think the other question is, okay, what else has to change for it just not to be like, remember, we've been here before. I mean, we haven't been here before with social media, but 100 years ago or 120 years ago, we would have been reading newspapers that were dominated by certain people who own newspapers and railroads at the same time. Train, daddy, train, if you will. Apparently so. And even I really got some. I got to Google some stuff after this.
- [20:31]
Kara Swisher
You need to chatgpt. But I'm not going to go on.
- [20:34]
Pete Buttigieg
These problems aren't, like, completely. Some of these things that feel unprecedented are more precedented than we might think.
- [20:41]
Kara Swisher
Okay, what is not precedent is this idea. Maybe it is. It is precedent that there's a vast domestic terror movement on the left and promised to use the federal government to crack down on. What are you most nervous about in that threat? Sometimes they're just Yammering on. Other times, they do have the power of the government.
- [21:00]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah. I mean, what I'm worried.
- [21:00]
Kara Swisher
They seem very enthusiastically going through their list.
- [21:04]
Pete Buttigieg
I mean, it's not hard to imagine a roadmap that goes from here where any 501C4 that challenges the president is described as a terrorist organization. And again, we see that. I mean, other countries, the ones we worry about becoming, like Russia, for example, this is what they do, right? Putin doesn't say, like, I'm going to shut you down because I don't like you. He says, okay, I don't like you. I'm going to shut you down because you are a terrorist organization or because you didn't pay your taxes or whatever. They come up with something that, at least on its face as a fig leaf, is defensible, and we are fast on a road toward that. And again, that should horrify every conservative and every libertarian just as much as every progressive.
- [21:47]
Kara Swisher
It doesn't. Well, what are you most nervous about right now? They're attacking the University of California, one of the greatest education systems in the history of the world, actually, in terms of educating people, and many other institutions here, everywhere. There's not a university not under siege. There's not a media company not under siege. There's not a law firm not under siege. Is there a line for you? Is there somewhere where you'd be like, oh, no, no, no, now they're going after George Soros, which I thought they'd get to that first, but they haven't.
- [22:20]
Pete Buttigieg
I think there's a lot of people waiting for some line, like some what's yours indicator that goes off or has it been crossed? I don't think it works that way. I think a hundred lines have been crossed that are already really bad, and I think there's more where that came from. Nobody's going to just come down and tell us, hey, you just had an authoritarian breakthrough. It's underway. And the real question is, does it get consolidated right or does it get redirected and disrupted?
- [22:49]
Kara Swisher
Right?
- [22:49]
Pete Buttigieg
And you know, what most worries me is that the American people don't understand their own power. I mean, obviously Congress is just completely incapable of standing up to this president. So the only thing that'll really change is if people, especially people in Congress, who now believe that their political survival depends on going along with things that they know deep down are wrong, is replaced by an awareness that their political survival depends on doing things that are right.
- [23:23]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
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- [24:00]
Kara Swisher
I use it a lot.
- [24:02]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
I use it. I think its dashboard is really easy to understand. And of course, when you're hearing about data breaches, every day it becomes ever more important to do so. I have been aware of data breaches for a while. It's not something new to me, but it seems more than ever most of our information is vulnerable. The way I use it is I go and find out what people have done, what information they put together, and then I delete it. Delete me, right? Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and use the promo code CARA at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Kara and enter code Kara K A R A at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Kara code Kara.
- [24:52]
Kara Swisher
Support for.
- [24:52]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
On with Kara Swisher comes from the FIFA World Cup. When you tune into this podcast, you probably aren't expecting to hear me give you a breakdown of anything regarding sports. However, there's something particularly exciting when the world comes together for one singular event, and next summer you'll be able to have that experience in your own backyard. The FIFA World Cup 2026 is coming to North America, where you can get close up and personal with some of the best athletes in the world. You can get closer to the beautiful game with a hospitality package that's closer to the action in the best seats and suites, closer to match day with world class food and entertainment, and closer to the experience of a lifetime. All to see the ultimate celebration of sports and culture right in your own backyard. Not much can beat that. And by the way, did you know that I was a soccer coach for my son Louie's soccer team when he was 4 years old? I was. Excellent. Book a hospitality package@fifaworldcup.com Hospitality.
- [25:57]
Kara Swisher
Support for.
- [25:58]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
On with Kara Swisher comes from Live It Up Super Greens Moms. We know how much work you do for everyone in your orbit. I'm actually just talking about myself. But that can also mean your own wellness gets bumped to the bottom of the list. That's where Live It Up Greens comes in. It's a daily habit that actually works. No hassle, no fuss, just scoop, mix and go. Whether you're tackling school drop off, which I did this twice this morning. Conference calls, 53 of them, or a laundry mountain, I'm never getting to it. This is one easy win that supports digestion, energy and immune health. Live it up sent me some of their product and I have to say, it actually was really good. I've tried lots of different stuff greens mixtures. I put this one in. I drink kefir every morning and so I put it into the to the mix along with a little honey and.
- [26:41]
Kara Swisher
It was delicious, actually.
- [26:41]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
It was really good. It wasn't too much. I use it in all kinds of smoothies and I feel great right now. I didn't have coffee this morning and I feel really energetic. It's an all natural blend of over 20 superfoods formulated with organic vegetables, probiotics, digestive enzymes and naturally derived ingredients. Live it up is offering you 15% off your first order, including subscriptions with with code KARAKARA. Plus shipping's always free. Head to letsliveitup.com kara and use the code KARA for 15% off your first super Greens order. These statements have not been evaluated by the fda. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
- [27:22]
Kara Swisher
Let's pivot to the state of the Democratic Party because one would imagine this would be the counterweight and specifically its credibility deficit. I would call it fecklessness. Others would use other terms on Meet the Press. Let's go back a little bit. You said that President Joe Biden, quote, should not have run. It's been almost a year since the election. You waited until Vice President Harris said the same thing in a book excerpt, said it was reckless. I'm not gonna say no shit, Sherlock to you, but I'm thinking that in my head.
- [27:52]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, first of all, I didn't. I said something along these lines before that book came out. But also, like, yeah, look, everybody got to that conclusion, including, by the way, President Biden, who took himself out of the race.
- [28:01]
Kara Swisher
Sure. Belatedly we can say, okay, is it a position you've recently come to or did you feel it at the time? I'm gonna be interviewing Vice President Harris in two weeks. What about during it? You were in that administration, and I know that Scott and I on Pivot were talking about it a full year before that, and got attacked really relentlessly by Democrats saying we needed to get on board. And I was like, not on that train. I'm not getting on that train. Or you didn't understand the assignment. Talk about from inside. What took so long for people like you and Vice President Harris and others to unequivocally say that he shouldn't have run?
- [28:39]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, look, people like me were not consulted on the decision about whether he should run.
- [28:44]
Kara Swisher
Sure. But you have eyes.
- [28:45]
Pete Buttigieg
And what my eyes told me was that the sitting President of the United States and the leader of my party had made a decision that he was going to run, and that our country faced a choice between President Joe Biden or President Donald Trump. And it was not hard for me to know not just who I was going to vote for, but who I was going to do everything in my power to make sure won. And while there's lots of things that hindsight tells you about how and when he made his decision to change course and the hundred or however many days it was of the Harris campaign and I continued just as enthusiastically backing the Harris campaign and then the Harris Walls campaign as I did the Biden Harris campaign, and anybody who was part of making sure that they and not Donald Trump would want. Anybody who tried to do that, I think should have their head held high because it was the right thing to do.
- [29:37]
Kara Swisher
Was there a moment in that time period where you thought, oh, no, he should quit sooner?
- [29:42]
Pete Buttigieg
I mean, obviously, all of us who saw the debate immediately began asking ourselves tough questions. And I knew that he was asking himself tough questions and eventually stepped aside. I think that was a turning point for you all.
- [29:59]
Kara Swisher
I mean, even before the debate, polling showed a majority of voters were worried about his age. Yeah, I'd love to understand from the inside, like, what happened. I get like, okay, I don't know.
- [30:07]
Pete Buttigieg
Which inside you mean, because when they're, like, inside the room where he's deciding whether to run again, they're not calling.
- [30:12]
Kara Swisher
As a Cabinet member.
- [30:13]
Pete Buttigieg
The Secretary of Transportation is not invited into that room. But.
- [30:18]
Kara Swisher
But you're nearer than I was, potentially. Yeah, definitely.
- [30:22]
Pete Buttigieg
But to the extent that I was involved in the campaign, it was, how do we make sure that this campaign and not the Trump campaign is the one that wins?
- [30:28]
Kara Swisher
How does the party, though, then regain credibility with voters who are skeptical by just blaming the Bidens? Because that seems to be. I get why the Bidens did it. I understand it.
- [30:39]
Pete Buttigieg
I think the answer is to tell.
- [30:40]
Kara Swisher
The truth of what happened.
- [30:43]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah. And why we believe what we believe. Right. So again, the truth, at least the truth that I lived, was that we had a choice between two candidates, two presidents. It was not close who should be president between those two presidents. And then we had a different choice when he stepped aside. And it still was not close to me who should win and who should lose.
- [31:06]
Kara Swisher
I get that. But during, I think I'm trying to say very specific question. During that time period when there were worries, why didn't someone quit? Why didn't someone say, go to him and say, listen, love ya, but you gotta get out. Is that impossible to do in the current, the way things are?
- [31:26]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, it's not like you can just like book a meeting and go in and tell him not to be president anymore. Or maybe there's some people who could, like people in his family. I don't know. I don't know how that worked, but I know that enough people did that eventually he made that choice.
- [31:37]
Kara Swisher
Well, it was Nancy Pelosi, which is on brand for her. But I'm just interested in why that didn't happen sooner. So then what happened is it was very quickly. Vice President Harris, probably many people think far too quickly. So every episode we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours.
- [31:57]
Pete Buttigieg
Hello, this is Joe Manchin and I would like to ask my friend Pete Buttigieg a question. Do you believe, Pete, that the Democrats should have had a mini primary of at least 30 days when Joe Biden decided not to run? And do you think it would have.
- [32:13]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Helped or it had been more harmful?
- [32:15]
Kara Swisher
It's a good question. That's former Senator Joe Manchin. I just interviewed him this week and he kindly provided that.
- [32:22]
Pete Buttigieg
I think it probably would have helped. I didn't think that then why? I think I felt that we were so under the gun, that every day mattered so much and that she was prepared to not just come out running, but to take the organization that had been built over years and immediately carry it forward that we just couldn't lose one day. I think with the benefit of hindsight, if there had been, if we'd invested those 30 days, then had she been the nominee, she'd have done so after consolidating the party in a competition. And had she been unable to do that, then almost by definition there would have been a stronger nominee. But it's one of a million things that's a lot easier to say now, looking back with the benefit of hindsight than it was in the moment.
- [33:21]
Kara Swisher
Is there too much cautiousness in the Democratic Party? Obviously Trump doesn't have any caution.
- [33:26]
Pete Buttigieg
Awfully, yeah. I mean, not to dance, which is an asset. Yeah. I mean, I don't think the answer is to emulate Trump, but yeah, I mean to take one example, like most of my Democratic colleagues still hesitate to go into venues and spaces that I think we need to be in where people might not be exactly on our side or even on the level. But it's. Although it's happening more and more. Like I remember getting like not just feeling like I was one of the only ones who would go on Fox News, but having to defend going on Fox News. Like people said I was, you know, contributing to their business model and all kinds of reasons why I was actually people. Some people said it was actively harmful to go onto Fox News now. I think it's relatively uncontroversial in the party that we should be there. Well, it's funny, they're not booking me as often as they used to.
- [34:18]
Kara Swisher
They're obsessed with Gavin, just so you know.
- [34:20]
Pete Buttigieg
Oh, okay. Well, as long as somebody's doing it. But also into the kind of the online look, most people younger than me aren't getting the majority of their news from any tv. And so obviously there's kind of an online expansion of that same principle. But the principle is there. And I think I would take the podcasts. So, you know, I've started doing some of these podcasts that are like three hours long. And even if you intended to be on talking points for three hours, it is just not possible, which is risky. It's a risk. And it's the kind of risk that a lot of people in the consultantocracy in the party tell you you shouldn't take because you will definitely put a foot wrong in three hours. You just will.
- [35:01]
Kara Swisher
Do you think you're risk averse?
- [35:03]
Pete Buttigieg
I think I'm less risk averse about that than others who wouldn't do it.
- [35:07]
Kara Swisher
Okay, let's talk about a topic then. You have a well earned reputation as an effective communicator. 100%. You got blowback for equivocating when you asked about Gaza in an interview on Pod Save America. You now say you would recognize a Palestinian state as part of. Go ahead.
- [35:21]
Pete Buttigieg
Go ahead.
- [35:22]
Kara Swisher
As part of a 2. If I'm wrong, you can correct me. As part of a two state solution. And the US should not pass another 10 year agreement with Israel on foreign military aid. Did it take getting dragged online to clearly state your position on this issue and please, more clearly state it for us.
- [35:38]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah, so on the specific issues, there were three things that I spoke to. One was a resolution about offensive weapons going to Israel. And I believe, like a lot of Senate Democrats who voted for it, that that was an important step, something that I would support even though I'm not in the Senate, because it's one of the few things I could think of that would get the attention of Netanyahu in the conduct of the war. So that's number one. Number two, on the recognition of a Palestinian state. I think that if you believe in a two state solution, then by definition you believe in the recognition of a Palestinian state. But that does not mean that you just turn around tomorrow morning and do it while Hamas is still in charge and with no security guarantees for Israelis who are living surrounded by countries and organizations, including Hamas, that are dedicated to wiping them out. So, yes, it has to happen, but it has to happen as part of a negotiated, credible and enforceable agreement. And then on the third policy issue, the mou, in the past we've had our security relationships defined by a. I think it's happened three times now by a ten year, non binding but important MOU between the US and Israel. I'm not sure that's the right answer going forward. I'm not saying, I'm sure structurally what all the technical details of it should be. What I am saying is by 2028 or 2029, we don't know what we're going to be looking at in terms of how the security relationship is structured. I can tell you for sure right now that there should be a security relationship that, that should include the US maintaining its historic commitment to making sure that Iran or anybody else is not able to achieve their aims of destroying Israel. But that is a defensive goal, which is different from some of the things that the Israeli government has expected the American taxpayer or requested the American taxpayer to continue to support.
- [37:35]
Kara Swisher
One of my students here named Zach wants to know, he asked me and sent me a note if you still consider Israel a strong ally of the United States, and if so, what line would Israel have to cross to lose your support?
- [37:48]
Pete Buttigieg
So Israel is not behaving obviously as a good friend, but that's past the point, right? The problem is that the Netanyahu government is perpetrating atrocities in Gaza.
- [37:57]
Kara Swisher
Atrocity is the word you want to use. Would you use the word genocide?
- [38:01]
Pete Buttigieg
I have a lot of respect for not just the moral weight of that word, but the legal definition it represents. And so, out of deference to that, I'm not going to jump into that semantic fight. But the important thing is that the killing has to stop, the starvation has to stop, the war has to stop, and of course, the hostages need to come home, and Hamas needs to not be a threat to the people of Gaza. Let me tell you why I equivocated.
- [38:29]
Kara Swisher
Okay, because you're good at it. But go ahead.
- [38:33]
Pete Buttigieg
Thanks. I guess you're a good argument. Anytime I talk about this issue, I'm mindful of the pain that people experience, even if they're not. It's not quite accurate to say they're on opposite sides of it, because so many people I know who are really, really concerned about protecting Israel's ability to exist, and separately, I want to say that separately, really concerned about the explosion of antisemitism on American campuses will experience when you say things, even things that I think they too would agree are inarguably true about what's happening in Gaza. If you say it in a certain way or you say certain things in a certain order, their worst fears about the abandonment of Israel or of American Jews facing anti Semitism are confirmed. So one of the reasons why, as somebody who does a lot of talking and a lot of politics, I have rarely felt closer to my limits in terms of the tools that are available to build consensus and talk forthrightly about these issues than on this, is because I'm conscious of the pain that comes with talking about this, even when we are saying things that are clearly true. Because it turns out if you say certain things that are true and don't say all these other things that are also true, some people are inclined, for very understandable reasons, to assume the worst, certainly.
- [39:56]
Kara Swisher
But when Democrats talk about building back credibility as voters is actually framed around bringing back working class voters, for example. But we're in Michigan, a state Harris lost in part because of Arab and young voters who are furious about the Biden administration's support of Israel. How do you win back credibility if you're worried about. I mean, a recent poll found 77% of Democrats think Israel is committing genocide in Gaza, and a UN inquiry concluded that it had. How do you bridge that gap, then? Because again, like I said, same thing with Biden. We have eyes we can see. How do you do that as a Democratic Party?
- [40:36]
Pete Buttigieg
By naming all of the things that are all true and that collide with each other in messy ways, but are still definitely true. And by the way, this is one. And who knows, even just between when we're sitting here, and when people are listening to this podcast, what else will have happened on the ground? But in the face of this ground invasion, you see a lot of Israelis standing up and saying, this is not, certainly not helping the hostages. This is not helping our security as the Israeli people. And it is wrong. And so I think part of what we have to do, and it's been hard in the US Politics for all kinds of reasons, but. But to speak about this as freely as frankly, is possible in Israel. There are sometimes things that I have read on the pages of the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz Israeli papers that in the past, people weren't willing to say in US Politics, and we have to, because they're true.
- [41:32]
Kara Swisher
What would you state now if you were in a position of authority, you would do. What would be one of the first things you would do?
- [41:40]
Pete Buttigieg
It would be to make clear that the US Is not going to subsidize just anything. We're not going to let the Netanyahu government take American dollars and the credibility that comes with being an ally or partner of the United States and use it to, for example, use starvation as a tool of war. This is wrong. And it's one of those things that is so wrong that all of the other things which might also be true just cannot possibly make it right. And that does mean taking a look at the things that. Which is why that resolution, even though I think it was symbolic, was important. So I don't have all of the answers to something as vexing and as just repeatedly brutal as the Middle east conflict. But I think that the next president needs to be more willing to do that than any previous president from either party.
- [42:35]
Kara Swisher
You do understand young. But where young voters are. I've watched the shift happen in real time right now. And the Democratic Party has to respond to that, presumably.
- [42:44]
Pete Buttigieg
Yes.
- [42:46]
Kara Swisher
So I'm going to move on to something else. The federal government is set to run out of funding and shut down at the end of the month. In March, Chuck Schumer decided to avoid a showdown with the administration. He corralled enough Senate Democratic votes to help Republicans keep the government funded. What about this time? Should Democrats help Republicans keep the government open, or should it shut it down again? And what are the strategic benefits to both approaches?
- [43:07]
Pete Buttigieg
Well, first of all, I don't want to buy into the premise that it's the Democrats who would be shutting down the government.
- [43:12]
Kara Swisher
I get it. But they might be.
- [43:14]
Pete Buttigieg
The Republicans are in charge, Right. They have the House, they have the Senate, they have the presidency. And if there's anything we know about this presidency, it's this attempt to assert and then expand its control over everything. So if there is a shutdown, it will be because of Donald Trump and the Republicans. I'm just going to insist on that. If they want to ask for Democrats to vote for a Republican budget, there are certain things that Democrats are not going to be able to do. Even if Republicans are saying, if you don't do this for us, it's all going to shut down. And I think right now there are different answers from different voices in, in the party, in the House, voices like Pat Ryan and Jake Hawkencloss have been part of a group that has laid out a pretty specific set of things. The biggest. Well, I wouldn't say the biggest, but one certainly big one. Right. Is that I don't see how you can tell Democrats the government will shut down unless you vote to strip away access to health care from Americans. So I think that's likely to be a clear line. But there are many others. And look, if we're going to go into that, we have to know what it is we hope to do to have a less bad outcome than if Republicans just get to.
- [44:39]
Kara Swisher
Is there a strategic benefit to just saying, go ahead, shut it down?
- [44:43]
Pete Buttigieg
Not one to be taken lightly.
- [44:45]
Kara Swisher
Why not? It's theirs. You know, they're holding the bag.
- [44:49]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah, but the reason you can't take it lightly is because of how many people will get hurt. And if their goal is already to wreck the federal government and they're well on their way, a lot of there's just going to be a lot of damage left in the wake of this. So I'm not saying that I don't believe Democrats should roll over on this. I think it's different than it was in the spring. And I think that frankly, the unpopularity of the Republican proposals that they've jammed through is becoming clearer and clearer, too. And again, just philosophically, I think the Republicans are in charge. And if you're asking Democrats to actively cooperate with you, you can't demand that we support.
- [45:31]
Kara Swisher
You don't see a benefit. I hate to use a Mel Robbins term, but let them.
- [45:36]
Pete Buttigieg
Look, there's been this theory.
- [45:37]
Kara Swisher
You know who Mel Robbins is, right? She's real popular. Anyway, look it up.
- [45:45]
Pete Buttigieg
There's been this theory from day one that if what Democrats need to do is just let Republicans screw everything up, burn everything down, and then they'll screw it up and then they'll get blamed and then we'll come back into power.
- [45:57]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that's the.
- [45:58]
Pete Buttigieg
I think that theory is wrong. I don't disagree that they'll screw it up. I am not so sure that they'll just get blamed. One thing they're really good at, much better than actually running the government, is apportioning blame, and that's even more so as they're dominating some of the ways people get their information. So, again, I think there really needs to be a really forceful response this time. I just don't want to assume that it's going to be easy or that it should be done lightly.
- [46:31]
Kara Swisher
Is Chuck Schumer fit to do that?
- [46:34]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
He.
- [46:35]
Pete Buttigieg
I mean, one thing I've experienced is that he is exceptionally aware of what the dynamics are to actually get anything done or to stop anything from actually getting done in the Senate. And I would also say the virtues of a caucus leader in the Senate or the House and the things you expect from them might be different than what you expect from a presidential candidate or a person playing a different role or a governor or a different person playing a different role in the party. I do hope, though, that he recognizes how much has changed, how much the toolkit has changed, how much the relationship with the public has changed since some of the defining fights that might still be shaping his muscle memory.
- [47:23]
Kara Swisher
Yes. I would suggest he not do social media anymore, actually. Take a look, please. You'll understand. You've seen it.
- [47:29]
Pete Buttigieg
I know what you mean.
- [47:30]
Kara Swisher
It's a problem. It really is. You need to speak to him. I'm sending you, not me. Like, stop it, Chuck. You're hurting my eyes. Even if Democratic states also gerrymander their congressional districts, it's likely you can't match these Republican gains, who are much more willing to do so, let alone pick up more seats than the gop. It's not a realistic tit for tat, from what I understand. How do you feel about gerrymander, and.
- [47:59]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
What do you think?
- [48:00]
Kara Swisher
Democrats are putting their energy right now to make sure the party isn't permanently shut out of power?
- [48:05]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah, I mean, look, I do think there's a chance that some of these redistricting plans will be too clever by half because there's only so many Republicans to rearrange and that might backfire on them. But I don't. I wouldn't hang my hat on that as a strategy. How do I feel about gerrymandering? It's terrible. I mean, in Indiana, for example, where.
- [48:24]
Kara Swisher
You'Re headed next, Correct?
- [48:25]
Pete Buttigieg
Yes. Yeah. As we. As we speak, I'm getting ready to head to Indiana to. Among Other things do a rally around gerrymandering. They are openly saying, we want a nine zero map. Indiana, obviously I grew up there, I served there as mayor. It is a conservative place, but it is maybe a 60, 40 kind of place right now. So in addition to just the basic obvious unfairness of a place where if you get five people off the street at random, probably two out of those five will be Democrats, or let's say nine, maybe four of them would be Democrats. But the nine members you're going to send to Congress are going to be 100% Republican. But it's more than that. It's the contempt for the voter. To just even go around saying it's going to be 90 means you are saying to the voter, we're going to decide who's going to win that election before you even bother to vote. Which is so insulting to every voter, Democrat, Republican, independent, in the state of Indiana. And I don't know how good our chances are of pushing back on that in a state House with a Republican supermajority. Although you can tell from the body language that they're a little bit embarrassed that Trump is pressuring or requiring them.
- [49:41]
Kara Swisher
To do this, that doesn't seem to have stopped them.
- [49:44]
Pete Buttigieg
No, because they're more afraid of him than they are of either their own conscience or their own constituents. But at the very least, I think we can make sure that there is a political price to be paid for expressing that level of contempt toward your own voters. So what do I think of gerrymandering? I hate it. Also, if they're doing it, which shouldn't be possible, but if they're doing it, we can't just sit here with our high minded ideas and not respond.
- [50:10]
Kara Swisher
So you support what Gavin Newsom's doing in California or anywhere else?
- [50:13]
Pete Buttigieg
Yes. I think if this is going to be how they, how things work, we can't just sit there and let them do it. But that's not a long term answer. What we need is widespread, durable, actual reform. We've got what, 435 House districts, right? Fewer than 1 in 10 are competitive in a country that's basically 50. 50. That is nuts. Obviously we need a comprehensive structural solution to that. And that shouldn't be partisan. I mean, it is, but it shouldn't be.
- [50:47]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
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- [53:11]
Kara Swisher
Support.
- [53:11]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
For On with Kara Swisher comes from LinkedIn. As a small business owner, you don't have the luxury of clocking out early. Your business is on your mind 24 7. So when you're hiring, you need a partner that works just as hard as you do that hiring partner is LinkedIn Jobs. When you clock out, LinkedIn clocks in. LinkedIn makes it easy to post your job for free, share it with your network, and get qualified candidates that you can manage all in one place. LinkedIn's new feature allows you to write job description and quickly get your job in front of the right people with deep candidate insights. You can either post your job for free or pay to promote in order to receive three times more qualified applicants. Let's face it, at the end of the day, the most important thing for your small business is the quality of care candidates. And with LinkedIn, you can feel confident that you're getting the best. That's why LinkedIn claims that 72% of small business owners who use LinkedIn find high quality candidates. So find out why more than 2.5 million small businesses use LinkedIn for hiring today. Find your next great hire on LinkedIn. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com Kara that's LinkedIn.com Kara to post your job for free. Terms and conditions. Conditions apply.
- [54:22]
Kara Swisher
Speaking of respect for voters and what people they choose, in July, you were asked if you would endorse Zoran Mambame for mayor of New York City. You said at the time he hadn't asked for your endorsement, which sounds rather quaint and you're not a player in New York City politics, but you would talk to him about it now. It's now September, and Governor Cuomo just said he couldn't name a single living Democrat he admired besides his other incredible attributes. That was facetious, given the choice between these two candidates and Eric Adams, the hot mess that he is, who would you rather see win? And do you need an invitation to endorse him? Governor Hochul just did, for example.
- [55:04]
Pete Buttigieg
It's not a.
- [55:04]
Kara Swisher
Because the voters picked him. Young voters. And one of the. I'll just make a little moment. We tell young people to vote, and then they vote and we tell them their vote sucks. I'm sorry, that's their vote. And so we should respect it.
- [55:18]
Pete Buttigieg
Yeah. So again, I'm not getting like, you know, formally involved in a New York City mayor's race, but between those choices you laid out. Yeah, it's not close. I mean, the ways in which Andrew Cuomo has disqualified himself, in which the current mayor has disqualified himself. And don't get me started on the Republican candidate. It was not close.
- [55:42]
Kara Swisher
He likes cats.
- [55:45]
Pete Buttigieg
Okay, that's.
- [55:48]
Kara Swisher
I'd put him at number two in my choice list, but.
- [55:50]
Pete Buttigieg
Okay, everybody's got something. But. Yeah, I mean, I Think that's very clear. Right. And by the way, I also think, even though I sit in a different place in the Democratic coalition than he does, I think that he has been absolutely right to be relentlessly focused on affordability. And I think that we could learn a lot. Like some things obviously are not as useful. Some things that worked in a Democratic primary in New York City may not be particularly portable or useful here in Michigan.
- [56:25]
Kara Swisher
Sure, but he's not running in Michigan.
- [56:27]
Pete Buttigieg
Right. But in terms of what we could learn in Michigan or anywhere else from his campaign.
- [56:32]
Kara Swisher
So why not just endorse it first and foremost? Why not just. Just say I like the cut of his jib, Say it just like that.
- [56:43]
Pete Buttigieg
I'm not planning to get formally involved in that race.
- [56:46]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [56:47]
Pete Buttigieg
But again, I think those things are really impressive. I also think he has a real challenge, though. And the challenge is in the same way that the most important job of the President is to bring the country together. One thing I learned very quickly as mayor and as a very policy minded mayor who came in not terribly interested in anything but the specific policies I wanted to implement. The job of a mayor is to bring everybody together. Doesn't mean everybody's going to support you politically, but you are a walking symbol of what people in your city have in common and what he will need in order to succeed as mayor. And what I think he, from what I can see, has recognized in terms of the campaign too, is the importance of moving on from some of the things that were more divisive in past statements or past positions. And that's not about necessarily even changing a policy, but making sure that he positions himself to bring people together, including people who might not support him politically.
- [57:48]
Kara Swisher
What do you think his biggest asset and as big as the negative from your perspective, Just from yours, I mean.
- [57:54]
Pete Buttigieg
I think in terms of assets, again, the focus on affordability, now that sets a high bar because some of those things are really intractable in New York City. But you win, you get to work those issues. I would add to that his kind of go everywhere strategy on social media, I believe, and practice the same strategy, not just on social media, but just being out and about. I think in terms of campaign tactics, I think that's smart. I think it's the right thing to do. And also, again, in recent weeks, it seems to me that he has recognized, probably thinking not just as a candidate but as a future mayor, he's recognized the importance of finding ways to bring people together.
- [58:34]
Kara Swisher
Meeting with Bloomberg, biggest problem for the.
- [58:39]
Pete Buttigieg
Democratic Party, I think it's look, specifically, obviously various positions or statements he's taken that would be pretty toxic here in Michigan or a lot of other places. But I don't know. I don't want to say for the Democratic Party, like every Democrat, wherever they are, needs to decide what they're going to do and say that makes sense, where they're from. And for us to be one party, all of that has to cohere into a bigger set of things that we care about so that we can be in coalition with each other. And I think that's okay. I don't expect to ever be on the exact same page as the most conservative Democrat, or, for that matter, Bernie. But there's a reason why we are in coalition together.
- [59:18]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. So let's wrap up by talking about how you approach both these elections. Coming up, the midterm elections, the 2028 presidential election. You decided not to run for Michigan's open Senate seat. Next year's midterms. You might have been a shoo in. Does that mean you're gonna run for president again in 2020?
- [59:33]
Pete Buttigieg
There's no such thing as a shoo in.
- [59:35]
Kara Swisher
Well, you probably would have won.
- [59:37]
Pete Buttigieg
Thank you.
- [59:37]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [59:41]
Pete Buttigieg
Sorry, what was.
- [59:42]
Kara Swisher
What was the. Are you gonna run for president again in 2028? Oh, I don't know. Please don't be coy. Come on.
- [59:48]
Pete Buttigieg
I don't know.
- [59:49]
Kara Swisher
Really.
- [59:50]
Pete Buttigieg
It's 2025.
- [59:51]
Kara Swisher
That's not very long.
- [59:54]
Pete Buttigieg
Have you lived through the last nine months? Long.
- [59:55]
Kara Swisher
Yes, that's true. I got to tell you, that was better than the Gavin answer. Oh, that said, he said I could sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom, so we know where he is on that. It's my greatest goal. Will you let me sleep in the Lincoln Bedroom?
- [60:14]
Pete Buttigieg
Sure.
- [60:14]
Kara Swisher
Okay. There we go. He's running for president, ladies and gentlemen. Apparently, Trump's changed it, by the way.
- [60:22]
Pete Buttigieg
Oh, is it the Trump Bedroom now?
- [60:23]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [60:24]
Pete Buttigieg
Great.
- [60:24]
Kara Swisher
There's a lot of gold happening. It's going to take a lot to fix that, so. But if not. Or if not, name three Democrats who you think should run for president, if not you, and then tell us their strengths and weaknesses.
- [60:47]
Pete Buttigieg
You're just going to put that in front of me?
- [60:48]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I am.
- [60:52]
Pete Buttigieg
You put it in front of me, but I just don't think I should eat it.
- [60:54]
Kara Swisher
Come on.
- [60:56]
Pete Buttigieg
Look, there are great people in our party, okay? Some of them are thinking about running for president. Some of the most interesting ones are ones who are not maybe immediately being mentioned as 2028 contenders, but are just really interesting people providing a lot of leadership. I mean, I'm mostly interested in people in my generation who are. I mean, you got folks in the Senate like Andy Kim, who came out of very trumpy district in New Jersey and is now a very modern US Senator. My senator right here, Our senator right here in Michigan, Alyssa Slotkin in the House.
- [61:32]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Right.
- [61:36]
Pete Buttigieg
I think in the House. Again, I was very impressed that Pat Ryan from New York was pretty much the first to the punch to say if we were going to do a shutdown, if we're going to be forced into a shutdown by the Republicans, here's what we would need before we would be ready to give Democratic votes. And he named specific things that also, very wisely, I think, tied together the things that we're all going to feel in everyday life, like health care costs to the militarization of our cities and how all of that is part of one big picture. So people like him, some are coded more center or more left. People like Marie Gluzen. Camperez is a very original thinker who, because she has a body shop, I mean, that was her career, just has a regard for people who work with their hands in the trades. That has always historically been so core to who we are as Democrats, but weirdly, is not how we're thought of since this education gap has opened up. And she's very true to her district in a way that I really respect, having worked with her on getting this big bridge fixed that affects her district. Others are really not talked about very much, and maybe because they're not craving national spotlight, but leaders like Gabe Vasquez in southern New Mexico, who I think is just a remarkable leader. So my point is we have Jake Hockenclass, who has provided, I think, some of the most interesting and intellectually ambitious ideas.
- [62:58]
Kara Swisher
Those are all great. Sarah McBride. Greg.
- [63:00]
Pete Buttigieg
Sarah McBride, another person who's been so.
- [63:02]
Kara Swisher
So no one that could run against you for president. Correct. Love them all.
- [63:09]
Pete Buttigieg
Love them all.
- [63:12]
Kara Swisher
How do you like Gavin? You're just behind him in the numbers.
- [63:17]
Pete Buttigieg
Great infrastructure work in California that we did together.
- [63:19]
Kara Swisher
Okay, okay. Do you like all his social media stuff?
- [63:25]
Pete Buttigieg
We all have our style. Oh, I'm very glad that someone is doing what he's doing. It's just not, you know, it's not my style, but I'm glad he's doing it.
- [63:35]
Kara Swisher
Okay. You made history as both the first openly gay person to win the Senate confirmation to a cabinet position and first openly gay presidential candidate when you ran. But on a recent episode of his podcast, conservative commentator Tucker Carlson called you a fake, fake gay Guy, he said he wants to ask you some, quote, really specific questions about gay sex. I would like to know your response, but I'm having moments here now, too, so I made two references. You don't get both.
- [64:08]
Pete Buttigieg
First of all, I do not think I want to discuss anything with Tucker Carlson.
- [64:13]
Kara Swisher
Okay. Same, same, same also.
- [64:19]
Pete Buttigieg
But I cannot think of a topic I would like to discuss less with Tucker Carlson than that. Even though I will admit some level of morbid curiosity on what in the hell he thinks his. No, actually, no. I just. I suppose it's a sign of progress that the. Their idea of a conspiracy is that I'm actually secretly straight.
- [64:41]
Kara Swisher
Great.
- [64:43]
Pete Buttigieg
And. But yeah, I just. Where do you even. I don't know. We are in a postmodern. We are through the looking glass.
- [64:52]
Kara Swisher
Now, do you know what you have to say? You have to say, tucker, I'm not interested. Okay.
- [64:57]
Pete Buttigieg
That's one way out.
- [64:58]
Kara Swisher
It's worked with people who attacked me. I'm like, stop flirting with me. They go away really quick. So I have a last. Let's end on a positive note. In your interview with Pod Save America, you said President Trump's dismantling of the government also presents Democrats with an opportunity. Opportunity to rebuild on better terms, build back better. So you also say arsonists present homeowners an opportunity to rebuild, which is not.
- [65:23]
Pete Buttigieg
The best way to rebuild.
- [65:24]
Kara Swisher
You did not say that. Did you sort of say that?
- [65:27]
Pete Buttigieg
No.
- [65:28]
Kara Swisher
Okay, all right. You could also.
- [65:29]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Oh, I say.
- [65:30]
Kara Swisher
I am saying that. Sorry, I'm reading it wrong.
- [65:36]
Pete Buttigieg
But okay.
- [65:38]
Kara Swisher
Phoenix, Phoenix, you got the.
- [65:40]
Pete Buttigieg
No, no, but look, this is really important.
- [65:41]
Kara Swisher
Paint a picture of what this is really important. America looks like.
- [65:45]
Pete Buttigieg
I think whether we're talking about people in political practice, elected leaders, people like me, but also people like the policy scholars here at the Ford School at the University of Michigan, and a whole lot of other people have an opportunity to invent some things from first principles. And I use the word opportunity very advisedly because it's a bad thing that we are here. But it means that a whole set of fundamental questions that were just being assumed as asked and answered because we had this big, rickety status quo. We actually get to start over, or have to start over. We're forced to start over. It was so wrong, like, criminally wrong, to dismantle usaid. Like, one of the ugliest things I've seen in this parade of horribles is not one of the most famous things that happened in Washington, but it was the Secretary of State lying to Congress by saying that nobody lost Their lives in that. When we know from good journalism the names of some of the people who lost their lives from that. Having said all of that, talk to anybody who's been involved in international development aid, including at usaid, and they would not say that the status quo that we had in 2023 was exactly where we needed to be. So if we're going to have to start over, not it's not okay that we do, but if we do, or the Department of Education that they are burning to the ground, or who knows, we might have to think about tax policy on a clean sheet because they're going to plunge us into a debt crisis with all these giveaways to billionaires. So many things where we might find ourselves starting from scratch. There is an opportunity that rests in that and it's to build a different way of doing things, socially, economically, politically, that actually supports your ability to live a life of your choosing and to have a good life. Look, the government never gets decides that you're going to have a good life. But we can make it easier or harder in so many ways. And we shouldn't be wedded to all these institutions, many of them built in the 40s or 50s that we kept because it was what we had going the way they were going, but frankly were really showing by the 2000s that they were not well adapted for the future.
- [68:07]
Kara Swisher
Where would you start? Name one thing. Getting rid of the Electoral College, expanding the Supreme Court, ending gerrymandering.
- [68:13]
Pete Buttigieg
We should totally do all three of those.
- [68:14]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, okay. What else? What's the one thing? The first thing you do, day one.
- [68:22]
Pete Buttigieg
I mean, those three sound great. Maybe we could do those three in one day. Not really, because you need a constitutional amendment, by the way. Another thing we need to do is revisit the most important. Jill Lepore has a new book about this. The most important attribute of the Constitution is that it can be amended. And we just stopped. We like for the last 50 years we haven't had a substantive amendment. We used to do that. Not all the time, but we used to do it often for whatever reason. Maybe because we were there first. Among presidential democracies, ours is one of the hardest to update. And I think that is costing us. Thomas Jefferson himself was the one who said we might as well require man to wear the jacket that fitted him when he was a boy as to require future generations to live under the regime.
- [68:59]
Kara Swisher
What's the next amendment?
- [69:00]
Pete Buttigieg
I mean, look, we'll get to the Electoral college. I don't know if that's my day one thing. I mean, really, if we had to pick one to start with, how about something that corrects the harm of Citizens United and the idea that money should just freely flow into our politics? There you go.
- [69:14]
Kara Swisher
Perfect way to end. Secretary Buttigieg, thank you so much for your time.
- [69:23]
Podcast Announcer/Producer
Today's show was produced by Christian Castor, Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Special thanks to Rosemary Ho. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're a train daddy. If not, Tucker Carlson has some sex questions for you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more far.