Rahm Emanuel’s Tough Love Intervention for the Democratic Party

Summary

Summary of "On with Kara Swisher" Episode: Rahm Emanuel’s Tough Love Intervention for the Democratic Party

Release Date: February 20, 2025
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Rahm Emanuel, Ambassador to Japan, former Mayor of Chicago, former White House Chief of Staff, and prominent Democratic leader.

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Introduction and Background

In the episode titled "Rahm Emanuel’s Tough Love Intervention for the Democratic Party," Kara Swisher hosts Rahm Emanuel to discuss the current challenges facing the Democratic Party and explore strategic pathways for its resurgence. Emanuel, renowned for his frankness and extensive experience in various high-profile roles, provides candid insights into the party's internal dynamics and external pressures.

The Influence of President Trump and Elon Musk on the Government

Kara Swisher opens the discussion by highlighting the significant impact President Donald Trump and Elon Musk have had on reshaping the federal government.

• Elon Musk's Governmental Role: Emanuel criticizes Musk's burgeoning influence, particularly regarding access to sensitive taxpayer data. He remarks, “[07:56] Elon Musk is getting access to the greatest concentration of data... It's like the California gold rush,” emphasizing the dangers of concentrated data power in the hands of individuals.

• Trump's Repercussions: Discussing Trump’s recent tweet, Emanuel states, “[04:59] They gave him a green card and a get out of jail card...," suggesting that Trump is leveraging judicial protections to defy legal constraints, thereby exacerbating frustration among Democrats.

The Role and Future of Inspector Generals

Emanuel underscores the critical role of inspector generals in combating government inefficiency and corruption, advocating for their restoration and empowerment within the Democratic framework.

• Effectiveness of Inspector Generals: “[07:08] If you're building an AI company who has more data than anybody else, the federal government... must protect American data,” Emanuel highlights the need for robust oversight to prevent misuse of sensitive information.

• Challenges Faced: He notes the ongoing legal battles inspector generals are encountering, stating, “[08:10] But this is a very short interview,” pointing out the systemic obstacles that impede their function and effectiveness.

Democratic Party Strategy: Prioritization and Key Issues

Emanuel critiques the Democratic Party’s current focus, urging a shift back to foundational issues such as education and economic accessibility rather than peripheral advocacy topics.

• Education Crisis: “[16:50] Eighth graders have the worst reading scores since the early '90s... we need to work to cure it,” Emanuel stresses the urgency of addressing educational shortcomings as a cornerstone for the party’s strategy.

• Reclaiming the American Dream: He proposes that the Democratic Party should center its efforts on making the American Dream attainable for all, stating, “[19:25] The American Dream is unaffordable, inaccessible, and it's unacceptable to us as Democrats.”

• Policy Over Advocacy: Emanuel advocates for prioritizing substantive policy discussions over niche advocacy issues, emphasizing that foundational educational achievements should take precedence.

Recruitment and Geographic Prioritization

Responding to Amanda Littman's inquiry, Emanuel reflects on the Democratic strategy post-Howard Dean's 50-state approach, defending its long-term benefits.

• Long-term Success: “[53:15] The idea is the messenger is part of the message... we need to find a messenger that gives the donor class in Upper West Side comfortable,” Emanuel argues that targeted recruitment in battleground states has yielded successful senators and governors, such as Chris Murphy and Tim Walsh.

• Expanding the Party Base: He emphasizes the need to broaden the party’s reach beyond battlegrounds to prevent the loss of key demographics and states, advocating for diverse candidates who resonate with local constituencies.

Foreign Policy: Countering China's Influence and Deterring Taiwan Invasion

As Ambassador to Japan, Emanuel addresses strategies to counter China’s growing influence, particularly concerning Taiwan.

• Strengthening Alliances: “[65:45] The U.S., Japanese, French, and others standing together... strength deters aggression,” Emanuel underscores the importance of robust military alliances and a strong presence in the South China Sea as deterrents against Chinese expansionism.

• Economic Measures Against China: He proposes economic strategies such as banning stock buybacks for major defense contractors and investing in small businesses and Ukrainian drone industries to bolster American defense capabilities.

• Export Controls: “[60:54] Why would you ask the American nowadays... they’re willing to be part of this... it adds credibility to deterrence strength,” Emanuel supports continued export controls on high-tech products to China, ensuring allied nations collaborate effectively to prevent technological advancements that could empower adversaries.

Relationship with Arab Allies and Israel-Palestine Conflict

Emanuel discusses the complexities of maintaining strong relationships with Arab allies amidst tensions arising from policies towards Israel.

• Endangering Partnerships: “[66:48] The president is endangering the Arabs that were going to be a partnership in confronting Iran,” Emanuel criticizes Trump’s policies for straining ties with Arab nations, thereby undermining collective security efforts against Iran.

• Balancing Alliances: He highlights the necessity of maintaining strong alliances with Arab nations to effectively counterbalance adversaries like Russia and China, ensuring mutual support and collaborative security measures.

Democratic Party's Internal Challenges and Future Directions

Emanuel addresses internal challenges within the Democratic Party, advocating for a focus on core issues and rejecting divisive advocacy that detracts from essential policy discussions.

• Rejecting Divisive Advocacy: “[44:12] ...we are allowing a generation to have failed… we need to focus on reading, writing, math,” Emanuel argues that the party must prioritize educational reforms and basic economic accessibility over contentious social issues that alienate voters.

• Building the Party’s Identity: He emphasizes the importance of defining the Democratic Party around the American Dream and reformative policies, stating, “[36:36] I kind of think of us now... we have to stop digging, stop it and start growing again.”

Future Political Ambitions

When questioned about his future in politics, Emanuel conveys a continued commitment to public service without committing to specific roles.

• Ongoing Commitment: “[67:11] I'm not done with public service, and I'm hoping public service is not done for me... we'll see how that plays out,” Emanuel expresses his openness to future political opportunities while maintaining a focus on his current role.

Conclusion

Rahm Emanuel’s conversation with Kara Swisher presents a robust critique and strategic roadmap for the Democratic Party. Emphasizing the return to foundational issues like education and economic accessibility, strengthening alliances to counter global adversaries, and adopting a long-term recruitment strategy, Emanuel calls for the party to evolve and realign with core American values. His insights highlight the necessity for the Democratic Party to prioritize substantive policy reforms over peripheral advocacies, ensuring a resilient and inclusive path forward.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• On Elon Musk’s Data Access:
  Rahm Emanuel [07:56]: “Elon Musk is getting access to the greatest concentration of data... It's like the California gold rush.”

• On Trump's Legal Shield:
  Rahm Emanuel [04:59]: “They gave him a green card and a get out of jail card... And he's running with it.”

• On Education Crisis:
  Rahm Emanuel [16:50]: “Eighth graders have the worst reading scores since the early '90s... we need to work to cure it.”

• On Reclaiming the American Dream:
  Rahm Emanuel [19:25]: “The American Dream is unaffordable, inaccessible, and it's unacceptable to us as Democrats.”

• On Democratic Recruitment Strategy:
  Rahm Emanuel [53:15]: “The idea is the messenger is part of the message... we need to find a messenger that gives the donor class in Upper West Side comfortable.”

• On Strengthening Alliances Against China:
  Rahm Emanuel [65:45]: “The U.S., Japanese, French, and others standing together... strength deters aggression.”

• On Future Political Commitment:
  Rahm Emanuel [67:11]: “I'm not done with public service, and I'm hoping public service is not done for me... we'll see how that plays out.”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and strategic insights shared by Rahm Emanuel in his interview with Kara Swisher, providing valuable perspectives for listeners and those interested in the Democratic Party's future trajectory.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

I think last time I saw you were mayor in Chicago at that Apple event and you met my kids. One of them's now six.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Five, Six, five.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Now one of them is the other six. I know lesbians have big kids. We need them. Hi everyone. From New York magazine and the Vox Media podcast network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. President Donald Trump and Elon Musk continue to remake the federal government in their image, which isn't a very good one. And the opposition party continues its search for an effective response. So I want to talk to a Democrat who has a track record of winning and speaking his mind. I'm speaking, of course, of the one and only Rahm Emanuel. I interviewed Ambassador Emanuel almost exactly a year ago. At the time, he was busy strengthening America's alliances with our Asian allies as Japanese ambassador, and he seemed optimistic about President Biden's chances to win re election. A lot has changed in a year. Rahm is back in Chicago. He briefly flirted and then discarded the idea of running for DNC chair. He wrote a series of op EDS about what Democrats need to do to find their way out of the political wilderness. And he joined CNN as a senior political and global affairs commentator. Besides being ambassador to Japan, Rahm was the mayor of Chicago, White House chief of staff, chair of the House Democratic Caucus, and chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, just to name a few jobs. He is the kind of person who inspires passionate defenders and also critics among fellow Democrats. But even his detractors will admit that Rahm says exactly what he thinks and he's never, ever boring. Our expert question today comes from Amanda Littman, president and co founder of Run for Something. So stick around. Foreign.

[Rahm Emanuel]

This episode is brought to you.

[Kara Swisher]

By On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist. And I'm Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience studying the indicators that drive the economy.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And how they can have a direct.

[Kara Swisher]

Impact on your investments.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We know that investors have a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

Of questions about the markets and the economy, and we're here to help.

[Amanda Littman]

So download the latest episode and [e-mail].

[Kara Swisher]

Oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow, which is enabling people to do more meaningful, creative work, the work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of a business. It, hr, customer service, and more. And that means your people can focus on the work they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get [e-mail] AI agents.

[Unknown]

Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That take credit cards nationwide. And and every time you make a.

[Unknown]

Purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, Ambassador Emmanuel.

[Kara Swisher]

I like calling you Ambassador. Do I have to keep doing that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

You don't. You know what, there is actually a fact on this.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And I thought, given I'm from Chicago, that the mayor was higher in the hierarchy because your Senate confirmed it's actually the ambassador.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, so it's higher.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. I think that will come as a rude shock.

[Kara Swisher]

Would you prefer mayor or ambassador?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I answer to schmuck.

[Kara Swisher]

Schmuck. Okay, I'll do that. Okay, perfect.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Your Excellency. Schmuck.

[Kara Swisher]

Schmuck.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Ok, just kinda warm me. Put some foam on the Runway before you hit the hard note. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Your fine excellency, Mr. Schmuck. Okay. Anyway, thanks for coming on. On. So I recently did an episode on Elon Musk's hostile takeover of the federal government, which is what I called it months now, Doge is apparently going to get access to personal taxpayer data at the irs. This information that IRS commissioners don't even get access to. I did an episode on the constitutional crisis we seem to be hurtling towards, although people aren't clear if that's the case. Last week Trump did tweet that he who saves his country does not violate any law. I'm not sure what he meant by this was a signal to others or what his intent is. So how do you feel about the situation? Is it a five alarm fire for the country?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, there's a couple things. I mean first, responding to what you said about what just Trump tweeted last week, it's basically. I mean, he has reflected. He has reflected exactly what the Supreme Court told him.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They gave him a green card and a get out of jail card basically. And he's running with it. And so at one level you can get Very angry and frustrated. On the other level, this is on the Roberts court and I do, you know, there's kind of two theories and we're going to find out very quickly. One is that there's three equal branches of government. It's based on a division and diffusion of power with a checks and balance system. Or you have this theory that has been promulgated by a number of people out of the Federalist Society that the president is the first among all equals. Just kind of summarize the arguments. That's not a legal argument. I'm not a lawyer, but that's basically the case. And the court's going to have to decide. Do you actually, as argued out by Madison in the Federalist paper and argued out, this diffusion of power, which was set up so that no one center of gravity became more powerful or in fact, we're going to concentrate a huge amount of power in one in the executive branch. And let me. I mean, I mean, they're doing things as a former chief of staff and former senior advisors, two different presidents. I mean, you know what's good for the goose. So there are things that obviously.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you saying you'd have liked to have been able to do them or.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I don't know if I would have liked to. But there's no doubt in the future things that would have been a checkmate mentally will no longer be a constraint. And people have to think about that and the consequences. Now, to the issue, the second part of your question, which I think is very, very relevant because I have seen not one. When I was a member of Congress, one of the first bills I introduced dealt with the privacy of financial records. I was on financial services. People do not like the government or anybody. They don't like the consumer, any agency or any corporation rummaging through your medical records, your financial records or any other type of records that can then be used almost against you. And the idea that. Forget that he's not.

[Kara Swisher]

Neither do corporations, presumably because he'll have access to that, too.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, you know, this is a question. I know I'm supposed to be doing the answer part, but, you know, in the talmudic fashion, I would like to go for it.

[Kara Swisher]

Go for it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, if you're building an AI company who has more data than anybody else, the federal government.

[Kara Swisher]

I've said this many times.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Then it's on me not to then.

[Kara Swisher]

To me, it's never been unified, I'll tell you that. That's what's interesting about Elon Musk is.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Getting access to the Greatest concentration of data anywhere, which is the building block of AI data is core.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. And they feel like they're running out of it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And he is now getting. He himself and people who are software writers are getting access to a quantity of data that is. You don't. It's like a gold mine. It's like the California gold rush.

[Kara Swisher]

It is.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And so to me, this is. That's where I think there's a massive, massive protection should be put on American data even before this. But definitely now, because you are getting.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that's not what's happening though. Correct. I mean, in a recent court file.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I didn't come all the way here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, no.

[Rahm Emanuel]

My insight is that those guardrails are not happening in those cases. This is a very short interview.

[Kara Swisher]

So in a recent filing, the White House said Musk, as a senior adviser to the President, is not official administrator of doge. That's flatly contradicted by their statements so far. So how do you assess his role in this? Because he's been the cudgel for President Trump.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, well, there's two things. One is the show Shiny Bobble and it's working. Here in the interview, we're talking about Musk. We're not talking about Trump.

[Kara Swisher]

He is doing a lot of stuff.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, there's no doubt Trump wants him to do that because he's a distraction from. Look, I rather personally. And this gets into topic too. I mean, we can talk about the price of Greenland or we can talk about the price of groceries. And so this is. No, there's real consequences to what he's doing. It's not about waste, fraud and abuse and it's not about corruption. Because if it was about that, you wouldn't fire every one of the cops, meaning inspector generals or other people that have actually protected and built in it. Some adequately, some better than adequately, some below adequately. But there is. There, I mean, look, 2023, all the inspector general reports together identified $93.1 billion of savings. Now those, as a former mayor, former inspector generals are a pain in the. Okay. The fact is though, they do good work and they've identified all these savings. I think at this point of this interview, we're talking about maybe 8 to 9 billion under Musk. 93 billion DOL. So it's a 10 to 1 variation. If I were the Democrats, one, I would take the court. The firing of the inspector generals. It's clear based on the law, on 30 day notice, none of it was given, not even three hours was given, two simultaneously in real time. Put all $93 billion of the reports on the table. Make it very clear these will be amendments on the appropriations process and we either gonna find the waste, fraud and abuse or were not. One, it would put the Republicans back against the wall. Two, more importantly, it would make sure the Democrats are not defending an institution but there to find the ways for other abuse. It cannot be the party of bureaucrats. Well, a, the party of bureaucrats, the party of the status quo. And also if you're a progressive party, you can't be in the conservative preservation role. You have to be in the promoting role. And so to me it has a lot of benefits. And the other thing is, I think you will expose the emperor who wears no clothes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I think you know this. Inspector generals already fired a federal lawsuit. So that's. It's ongoing, which is of course slower.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm for the inspector generals. I want the Democratic Party to do.

[Kara Swisher]

It to be for them and not be standing in front of them.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They don't have a brand.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they don't have a brand. We'll get to that in a second.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's diminished.

[Kara Swisher]

But one of the things that Ezra Klein, who you recently talked to in a video essay just did, called Congress non player Congress, which is a video game reference, which, you know, Elon's a big video game player. Do you consider them NPCs?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I'd be a little ruder. I know that comes as a shock. Please. I know. I think there's a number of Republican senators and members of Congress who I consider serious. I don't agree with them, but I served in committees with them, et cetera. They have put, and don't get mad because of the gender specific. They have put their manhood in a lockbox. I mean, I'm sorry, I faced off against public sector unions, had people call me names, protest outside my kids schools.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you can't. It's called dick in a box, but go ahead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm glad we got. I'm glad we're so quick. We're only four minutes. I hope the FCC's not listening right now. But I mean, they put their manhood in attack and then they said, we're huffing and puffing. You gotta be strong. What happened to you? You sit here and this is against your conscience. I know what you've said because you said it to me privately and you've said sometimes in other speeches when you've disagreed with President Obama, you disagreed with Senator Biden, you've had the ability to speak up I mean, so it's clear your strength has limitations and your kind of care and your conscience has limitations. So, you know a lot of people, we will get to this about the Democratic Party. Well, I want to have my discussion about the Republican Party. Where are these people? What happened to them is your throat.

[Kara Swisher]

They're worried about getting primary. They're worried about getting attacked online.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, you get a primary. Well, let me say this. Either you get a primary or a lot of people, you know, you talk about safe districts. Well, work your district men. Okay? That's what this process is about. And so I think that when you say you video game as an analogy, it is. You ran for Congress, you ran to, you know, if it's only about getting a good table at a restaurant. Got it. If it's, you know, if it's about doing something, I mean, there's a lot at stake here. Doesn't mean you and I are going to agree about what the solution is. But your role in the US Congress, I mean, you raise every weekend, you're doing a fundraiser, every weekend, you're doing a parade every weekend, you're running around, you're missing your kid's soccer game, you're missing that so that you could be a pawn. That's what this is about. Well, if you're gonna do brain damage, there's a lot of other things to do for brain damage.

[Kara Swisher]

Fair point. Now someone else said that Congressional Democrats engage in a political equipment of ASMR videos which is, you know, sand cutting or, you know, things like that. Democratic lawmakers say their phone lines are flooded with calls from angry constituents begging them to fight back. But so far, a lot of Dems seem like they wanna make nice with Trump while he steamrolls them. Others are standing outside of buildings and yelling and going on traditional television, etc. How do you. What's the Democratic response so far?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, so first of all, I don't think it's one or the other. I mean, there are places you are going to fight and draw a line. It doesn't mean you fight on everything because then you don't get hurt on anything.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And it doesn't mean you fold like a cheap suit on everything and don't fight on anything. Now there's a take the court battle on the 14th Amendment. There was a victory. I think there was also a victory on the spending. I would go to the inspector general because the law is very clear and you'll have a victory there. I would not let the inspector generals just do it themselves. I would do that because it also puts the Republicans, specifically Senator Grassley, Lindsey Graham, who used to be the biggest cheerleaders for inspector generals until they lost their vocal cords and put them in the uncomfortable position of either standing by, 30 years of profile building, exercise, or not. And then I would build that out, because nothing beats. In politics, winning begets winning. That's a rule. And a third win would start to build momentum and give confidence again to the Democrats. And you don't want to go into the midterm election, although there's a long period of time with a depressed base. That is not an election you want to go in with a base depressed. You want to show them you can win, et cetera. I would immediately. Second item is we're either going to talk about the price of Greenland or we're going to talk about the price of groceries. Now, I advocated to one leader, and I'm not saying this is a great. I do think it was a good idea. But in super bowl, what happens before the Super Bowl? Everybody's in the grocery store. Flood the zone, Go to a grocery store, hold a press conference in front of the eggshells. They're empty. Or they're up to seven bucks. They used to be three dollars. You have avian flu everywhere. And say, while you're shopping, post your own video. Engage the public of what the price of your groceries are. What's the price of your eggs today? Go back a week later, get the engagement with the public. On super bowl, you have everybody at every grocery store across America buying stuff and show them inflation and say, tell me what the price of eggs are in Greenland. If you wanted to kind of get. I think that was like, a really a missed opportunity. So is there a place to fight? Absolutely. Is there a place to not say now, like on Doge? You can sit there and focus on Elon Musk. Okay. My view is we need to be the party of reform, not of the status quo.

[Kara Swisher]

So you said. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries has talked about finding common ground. He tweeted, presidents, common presidents, go through it all, God is still on the throne. And complained that Democrats don't have the leverage. At the same time, you said that Democrats basically need to pick their spots when it comes to, say, usaid. That's not the hill I'm gonna die on. When you think about him talking this way, like, let's find common ground. Are you in the fight mode or pick your fights like you suggested? Democrats draw a line in the sand when it comes to the department of education.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, here's what I. Yes. So let me talk. Since I'm here, let me tell you what I'm saying.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. All right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, first of all, I mean, I, I'm also a product of my own experience. I remember President Obama's tenure. Senator minority leader Mitch McConnell, with 41 votes said he gets nothing. He's a one termer. That's my number. Okay? So Mitch McConnell, you know, in the Senate now we have 47. And I know one thing, I'm not a senator, never have been a senator. I think it's a constitutional mistake called the U.S. senate. But 47 is a bigger number than 41. Okay. And if that could be the mindset now, we did a lot, Even though Mitch McConnell fought us every step of the way over broken glass, I do think that there's leverage in the House and Senate. Yes, we don't have a gavel, yes, we don't have the White House microphone. But you look at your assessment of where your power is and then you exercise it. That is what politics is about. Now, to the point is I was, as you know, Ambassador to Japan. I think we had a regional office for USAID there. They do tremendous work. I just don't think. If you're going to. Since you don't have the gavel and you don't have the White House microphone, I think I would pick fights that are closer to home, to the kitchen table, to the living room and the family room of a house, to the neighborhood and community. We just got a report and this shows both my concerns, but I think it brings unity to the Democrats and brings independents over. Eighth graders have the worst reading scores since the early 90s. Okay, Matt, we have some culpability because of what we did during COVID There's no doubt about that. We should get back to the basics about reading, writing, math and the crisis in our schools. It builds a profile. Not about bathroom access, not about the name of a school, but what the function of a school is with education. Kids don't get a do over. You fail third grade, you failed. And it gets worse, Worse incrementally. You cannot be a party discussing equity and allow a generation to have failed. And I think what they're doing or not doing on education is both a political and a policy opportunity.

[Kara Swisher]

Because they're just saying, just tear it down.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Essentially they're saying, tear it down. But again, for what? Let me say this. Look at it this way, Kara. From a political standpoint, not a policy. How many articles, how much discussion and airtime has been around USAID and how much has been around the 9th. The report on the fact that 8th graders have the worst reading score in 30 years.

[Kara Swisher]

Very little.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's like a 20 to 1. Now, do I care about the health care and feeding of kids across the globe? Yes, I do. But not at the expense of our own kids. And I think you know, when you're trying to both do the future of this country as well as you're building the party back up, you gotta pick and choose your fights.

[Kara Swisher]

And in this case, from a practical point of view, say the Department of Education, how much I'm using.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't mean to interrupt you. It's not about the Department of Education. It's about eighth graders not being able to read.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm asking you a tactical question. When you mentioned Covid, where backsliding happened rather significantly, it was a disaster. Test scores backslid during the Bidens. How do you then credibly say that to people that that's what you're doing?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm sorry. Yeah, we screwed up.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Now, first of all, I was against this. We had many Emanuel brother fights about the. Anybody within first six months knew exactly that young kids were suffering. Anyone was tested, they were suffering academically. This was a shonda, as my grandfather would say and my grandmother on the American people. And we owe you an apology that what happened here is a consequence and we need to work to cure it. Everybody was part of it. There's no doubt about it. And where do you do it? You start by just acknowledging you screwed up and you screwed up in a big way and we're not getting better. Having arguments about the name of a school, building, access to a bathroom. The core function of a school is the basic educational building blocks for your success for the rest of your life. And we are failing on math. We are failing on reading. And because we got one thing wrong doesn't mean we get everything wrong right. And we get. We start there.

[Kara Swisher]

So what other topic besides education you think should be focused on like that? Is there another area that Democrats need to be aggressive into while being somewhat obstructive in the Senate and. And the House?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, this also. It's both an issue, but also a narrative. The American Dream is unaffordable, inaccessible, and it's unacceptable to us as Democrats. It can't be the American Dream when only the Swisher and Emanuel children have access to it full stop. Two thirds of the American people's families cannot afford the American Dream. That is unacceptable. Period. Pin. I'll Come right back to that. President Obama ran with hope. You can believe in. Yes, we can. President Clinton ran on being a new Democrat. That basically is the economy stupid. Not a lot of policies after that. I mean there were policies, but they were thematic arguments. The American dream, basically owning a home, saving for your kids, education and your retirement, affording health care. I mean there's other pieces to it, but that's the building blocks of an American dream. And it has over the last 30, 40 years, through Democrat and Republicans become restricted and restricted and restricted to one third of the Americans whose kids are because of their own lifestyles and own economic position, their children are going to be okay. And I'm for the fact is it's going to take a generation to build this up. Don't be false that we're going to do this in two years or on a single issue. And that should be the core North Star of the Democratic Party.

[Kara Swisher]

The Democratic Party.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And whether it's groceries today and inflation, whether it's the cost of not just college education, but anything your children need going in the future, that the health care accident doesn't put you one, you know, one visit to the doctor into the poor house or whether the fact that your retirement is less secure today than when you started working 20 years ago, however you want to approach it and it's going to take a generation and that to me is the North Star. And then you drive towards that and making people understand. And I think what having now worked for the two presidents since Franklin Delano, Democratic presidents since Franklin Delano Roosevelt got reelected, elected and reelected in periods of times dominated thematically by the other party is you have a North Star that organizes around this, around this.

[Kara Swisher]

So is there an immediate thing you need to do? For example, Republicans need Democratic votes to pass a spending bill to avoid a shutdown. One should Democrats help Republicans pass the bill? They're not in a current position to change any policies to make the American dream affordable. You're talking about talking about it. So let me just finish. So what they've been spending a lot of time doing is attacking Elon Musk. Is that a mistake to do because you can't or how do you do the American dream affordable part? While. Or is it a waste of time to attack him and get in the way of spending bills?

[Rahm Emanuel]

So my. Let's go to the spending bills first. Okay. And there's a premise underneath this question, not your question, but in the debate we're all having about this is a building process, especially when the brand of the Democratic Party, et cetera, is so bad. This is a building process, and you're not gonna. It's not one and done. So each piece has to be kind of building upon itself, et cetera. Now, part of the Democrats, and this may be a bad Gene of mine as a former congressman and chief of staff, thinking like this and talking like this, but my approach is not, oh, this is on you. You're the majority. And fold your hands because they will blame you if there's a government shutdown that you didn't come. So my view is lay out your five principles. Now, I'm not here to tell them exactly the five things, but on the funding of government, here are five principles, or here are our five policy goals. However they want to do it, I would do principles, because whatever the Democrats say is going to cost them somewhere on the other side of the Republican Party. And if you need. And the goal, which is what we did in 06, speaker, and I say we, meaning Steny Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi, et cetera, was bring unity to the party and division to the other party. And my view is, you want us, you need us. Okay, we're ready. But here are the five principles. Now, Democrats can then organize and rally around those, but that is not going to be a cost free. Yes, you're going to have to choose. And the goal is to put both Donald Trump and the Republican leadership in that famous, infamous Yogi Ber comment. When you get to the fork in the road, take it. You want us. We're on an expensive date. Ready, but here's our price. Otherwise, go find unity among yourselves. And I would be very. Rather than fold your hands and say, well, you're the majority. It's on you. You're gonna own that suit. Because if they can't get unity, say.

[Kara Swisher]

Democrats never came because it puts the blame on you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The one thing you have to know in government, et cetera, is the White House microphone is bigger than anybody else's, and they're gonna do that no matter what. So you gotta prepare yourself to be both offensive and defensive.

[Kara Swisher]

Mm.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We told you up front. Here it is. You never took us seriously. Right. Now, let's say you're one week out and there's no agreement. What do Democrats say, except for you're the majority. Now, that's an inside beltway argument.

[Kara Swisher]

Mm.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, that's not what they elected you. So the position is. We told you months ago we were ready to talk to you. You just never wanted to talk. Here was the goal. So you give yourself Both the protection as well as posturing for the offensive kick. Because here's what we were for. Be very clear, you didn't want to do any of this. You had no interest in talking to us because you weren't interested in 8th grade's reading ability. You weren't interested in making sure that the price of eggs were coming down rather than continue to go up. You weren't interested in the scientists who protect the quality of our food, but the air that we breathe and the water we drink. You weren't interested. We were ready to talk. You didn't wanna talk cuz it was.

[Kara Swisher]

Not part of your plan. So they're spending an enormous amount of energy focused on Musk, which is to me is a heat shield for Trump.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I call it a shiny bauble.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's shiny over here. So you just.

[Kara Swisher]

But he can do that stuff. And then they are busy catching up to him with the mess he makes as he walks around and does things. They're now on the irs, which is troubling. And at the same time, if you don't defend against it, you look weak, presumably. Correct?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

So how do that to be obstructive?

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's not about Musk, it's about what he's getting access to. If you're comfortable having your tax returns looked at, then you should just put them on your front door. We'll pick them up, don't worry, you don't have to put them in an envelope. I don't know if a single American is comfortable having their taxes exposed and looked into. I don't know if a single American who's comfortable, especially when you think about healthcare costs or Consumer Reports, et cetera, any of their private information. There is privacy for the American people. That is a core concept. And you defend the privacy of the.

[Kara Swisher]

American people, which is one of these.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Principles, not the rules. Look, this gets to a bigger subject and now I'm closing my eyes in a moment of prayer. Less about the rules and more about the results. That should be. When you think of your criticism, your attack or your fight. We are defending rules, we are defending processes. When we should be defending the end results. Whether that's about reforming government or whether that's around. Whether you want to make it. On this argument. On the. It's not that Musk is getting access to the irs, it's. He's getting access to private information of private citizens. That's unacceptable. And we're going to protect the citizens. Not from an unelected official or somebody Elon Musk personality. The Elon Musk glimmer is blinding.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's about the fact that your own tax returns cannot be used against you.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Deleteme. We all strive for that feeling of security, but some of the threats on the Internet are those you can't see. Data brokers that collect and sell your personal information can lead to your data falling into the wrong hands. But now you can protect your privacy with DeleteMe. DeleteMe sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. I've used Deleteme for a while now, and I have to say I'm constantly surprised about how much information is out there on me and how it's collated together to form a situation where they really could do a lot of identity theft, even when the information is inaccurate. So you can take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount to our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Cara Enter the code Kara at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Cara Code Kara Support for today's show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's a quick jaunt or a long journey, no matter where you're going, the all electric Equinox EV allows you to travel with confidence, comfort and conical connectivity. Equinox EV comes equipped with a standard 17.7 inch diagonal color display touchscreen, making it the largest center screen among EVs in its class. Its sleek lines and a commanding stance define the exterior of Equinox ev, while the no Compromises interior has a cargo room and storage that let you do you at a starting price of around $34,995. Equinox EV a vehicle you know, value you'd expect and a dealer right down the street, you can go EV without changing a thing. Learn [e-mail] Equinox EV based on latest competitive data, the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price support for on with Kara Swisher comes from the NPR podcasts. Up first what you focus on and what you think about those things can add up and eventually they become a huge part of your life, do you really want to spend it all on your phone doom scrolling? If you'd like to use your time more wisely and stay informed, you might want to check out the NPR podcast Up First. Up first covers the three most important stories of the day in just 15 minutes so you can learn what you need to know and then move on with your day. Every episode gives you what you need to be informed without compromising your sanity. I listen to up first quite a bit to find out what's going on in the day and I really like how short the episodes are because I can figure out what's important to focus on as I move forward and then dive deeper. I like getting essential stories without getting sucked into doom and despair. And at the same, I get the information I need quickly so I can get in and get out and get on with my day. It's important to be informed, especially at this difficult time for our democracy. So if you're looking for more news and less noise, the way to start your day off right and stay informed, you can listen to the up first podcast from NPR today. Let's move on to the Democrats strategy for winning elections then, because that's really where it has to get to, right?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Meanwhile, as elections are kind of unimportant, right?

[Kara Swisher]

So when I, when I last interviewed you exactly a year ago, you said Biden should run on keeping things calm and just back to norm that people are seeking. But in your post election assessment, you've criticized Harris for not being a change agent, as you put it. Campaigns of joy in an era of rage don't win elections. Great line, by the way.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Wait a second, can you put up a smiley face on my homework assignment?

[Kara Swisher]

That was a really good line. What do you assess now? How do you look at it now, how to move forward from that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I mean, the part that's jarring, and I'm not saying that I have the answers, is Trump's negativity because it's not been the ethos of the United States both about itself, its self, reflection of itself or its culture. Now as it relates to Kamala Harris, I still believe, I mean, one of the things I talked to her campaign people about, and I'm not saying I was perfectly right, but it, and I think I was closer to the hoop on this, that the future begins today. It had a break from the past. She needed a moment without being aggressive against President Biden to find that degree of separation without being disloyal. And also positing Trump because of 2016-2020 in the past. And it doesn't mean you replicate his anger. But change should have and needed to be her calling card. And it wasn't. If you really look, she runs a very good campaign to the debate. She did not have a. If you kind of break it up, the closing argument. And the closing argument became closer and closer when it came to democracy, et cetera, to actually replicating President Trump. Biden's earlier on themes when he was running. And I think that was when proven out not to be correct.

[Kara Swisher]

Meaning that the calm down is not what you need.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The future begins today had a demarcation. I respect the loyalty. I do. I'm somebody that was loyal to two presidents and I will continue to be, and I respect that. But for her own interests, she needed a way to find her own identity outside of the shadow and between those two goalposts. Loyalty to President Biden and your own candidacy and charting your own future. The future begins today.

[Kara Swisher]

Did you bring the future begins today to them?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Short answers to people in the campaign. Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

And what did they say?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, obviously, I think you know the answer.

[Kara Swisher]

They didn't use it. Right? They didn't answer.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think you know the answer.

[Kara Swisher]

So who represents that? Is there a candidate that reflects that from your perspective?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, that's what a primary. I mean, you got a bunch of people running around being shadow candidates right now. They're governors and they're senators, and that's. And I don't say that. And that's exactly how it should be. I think there's an apparatus for them is individuals, both governors, senators, congressmen, mayors, et cetera, to all kind of start to figure out their voice and their ideas. And then there's the apparatus where we start. I think one of the. When I look back, trying to understand not just the mistake of 2024, in the early 2000, there's this concept that demographics is destiny and that the Democratic Party, the country, becomes a majority minority. We will be the majority party by Faita Co. It will be delivered like Uber eats. All you gotta do is do a tip at the end.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. And we became intellectually flabby. And I kind of think of us now, while we should focus on defining ourselves vis a vis Trump and what we disagree with and with the purpose of building back the party, not only brand, but the capacity second, there should be another initiative in and around the policies and the actually working document of what the party stands for and how it will rebuild both. Not only the American dream, but build the party as a Party that gives voice to the middle class, working class.

[Kara Swisher]

Of the country, which Gallup polls are showing they want a more Democratic Democrat leaning independents want the party to become more moderate or focused on.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't think the American dream's moderate. I think it's a radical idea. But my view is that's what we should be doing. And rather than just, you know, counterpunching now, the counter punching against Trump needs to happen, but happen in the context while also over here, because this part's defining you.

[Kara Swisher]

The counter punching is all that's defining you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, I mean, think of it this way, for lack of a better way of saying it. Yes, I'm not. And counterpunching is defining us. To me, the Project 2025. While everybody else was doing whatever they were doing, running for president, running for senator, et cetera, there was people intellectually thinking about the day after.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Who is that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. And that should be the party. And.

[Kara Swisher]

Who will render us non flaccid. I like all your dick references. Who will.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, first of all, I don't. I think you seem to have no.

[Kara Swisher]

It'S your talking point word intellectually flacc. I use the word limp a lot.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I do think the party looks and look, there is, you know, people like strength.

[Kara Swisher]

So who looks hard? Let's keep on.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I think there's a lot of people with a lot of talent and I think it's early to talk about any individuals right now. And you know, there's some people not just on the policy side, but also because I talked about this early and I find some affinity to it, but the sense of it's not just the hollowing out of America, but we have a generation of Americans who've incorporated and internalized a sense of self doubt in themselves. And I think the first Chicago was the first city back in 2014 and I'm proud of this. When we sued the pharmaceutical industry over opiates, I gave President Obama then a book about what was happening with opiates in America. And we've lost a generation that are destroying themselves. And it's not just the soul of America, it's individual souls that have incorporated this level of I don't know if it's self hatred, this darkness about themselves. And we are letting cavalierly a generation that can't read, a generation that is inflicting hopelessness. It is a hopelessness, but it's also self destruction. That hopelessness is. And we can't do it. It's not just about what new drug will work that will be part of it. But to believe again and not give in and give up on themselves. And that has been.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is why Trump's negativity works well with this country.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yes, it's very fertile to ground.

[Kara Swisher]

It's very fertile. So one of the things that you had said was the Democrats had become the party of advocacy and that they needed a sister solsja moment where the publicly repudiate someone on the left in order to distance themselves from progressive positions that are unpopular with voters. I'd love to know what you cause you've written that crime, immigration, homelessness and fentanyl crisis are issues that people have worried about. Even though statistics show violent crime is down, people don't feel that way. What do you think the most three most harm. Let me ask what three most harmful progressive advocacy positions associated with the Democratic Party right now? And who exactly should Democrats publicly reject in order to show independent vot they're not captured by special interest groups?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, you didn't. If we're reading lines of myself against myself here in my court case here, one is we did look like the substitute teacher and we looked like we were taking the side of the kids throwing the spitballs.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. And the data is very clear that the country thought in this case that we were more controlled and more sensitive to quote unquote, using it as a shorthand, the woke left than we were about mainstream. I wasn't just doing it tactically, although I'll play out the tactics. I do think there's a difference between 100,000 community police officers and defunding the police. And even I said it. When people are advocating defunding police or cutting police budgets. I mean, I think the biggest example, there's a state senator in New York right now running for mayor who, who three years ago, four years ago, wanted to expunge everybody's criminal record. Today, he's at talking about 3,000 more police officers. You can't run for office anywhere locally on a defunding police or even cutting the budgets. That's not where the American people are. And you're telling me the data says X, Right? Okay, Let me just tell you.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I get that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. On crime, I'm just saying this look very fair. We gotta appreciate this. Nobody walks around saying, I feel 22% safer. It's a sad agree.

[Kara Swisher]

I had this argument in San Francisco when they were arguing and I said, there's murders down. I said, people don't like their cars being broken into. You don't have to choose between Them.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They don't like cars broken into. And let me tell you what, other than they don't like carjacking right now, not to relive something. Some of us advocated also focusing on the carjacking when the data was coming out about murder and shootings and try to argue with people about how they felt. That's not a place to go in politics. So. And I, you know, at that time, when Sister Soulja came up or when President Obama talked about fatherhood, I mean, this happened to Pat Moynihan. President Obama got yelled at. We should be able to have a discussion about family. I say this in our. You know, you have two kids. We were starting 4. 4.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm the Elon Musk of lesbians, but go ahead.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I'm gonna build you a statue in a park. Do you want wood or bronze? What kind of material do you want?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't need a statue.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I have three.

[Kara Swisher]

Someone will take it down 100 years from now, and it'll be an issue.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, you know. Well, look, first of all, whatever one person feels like that should be. That is core. It may have a political point, whether it's sister soldier or, in President Obama's case, parenting and fathering. As I think he used to say, it's easy to father a child. It's harder to be a dad. That shouldn't be a topic. Off topic now, people yelled at him about it, and people yelled at President Clinton about that time when he was a candidate. His comments on sister soldiers become now a shorthand metaphor. And I think the fact is there's opportunity. And I said in this piece that you're quoting from, I think President Biden, when at the State of the Union, missed an opportunity when he said illegal immigrants did not actually achieve the political goal, let alone the policy goal. If you're an immigrant and you cross the border illegally, it speaks to itself and people get it. You want to use undocumented, that's up to you. I used what I said. I'm comfortable with what I said. That would. It's a character piece, and it happens to be something that people would have looked at all the data. Now Democrats are flipping over themselves to talk about what they do at the border. He had the slowest pitch over politics I ever saw. And there are going to be opportunities. Classic example. I am. I think the idea that you have open drug markets, ridiculous. I think it's crazy. I think it's a bad example to set out for kids that there's an open drug market or the Idea that you're going to let people walk by, whether it's a homeless shelter or a drug market. Now, you want to have different policies. You want to have different discussions about how to deal with a war on drugs that have not succeeded over 50 years. I'm open to that, but I'm not going to have an open doc that gives you a permission slip and a permissiveness to a culture in which we're trying to ensure that children actually don't.

[Kara Swisher]

So that's a progressive advocacy position. You think they shouldn't be.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think it's. I would not have, as a former mayor, I was not for it. I wouldn't have done it, and we didn't do it. Now, I think there's a lot of different ways on homelessness, on this idea that you have tent cities everywhere. I mean, we started. I mean, I believe in these little tiny homes. And I know in big cities in America, you have a lot of empty lots. Okay, well. And not just individual lots. You have areas where you have other factories that have been closed for 30 years. That's a way to handle homelessness. And the tiny homes that are very, very.

[Kara Swisher]

These are the Schwarzenegger homes.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, we had some in Chicago. But there's a lot of ways to go correct the idea that you are permissive to homeless tents and homeless tent cities and calling them cities within a city that are homeless. To the.

[Kara Swisher]

When I was thinking of running for mayor of San Francisco, I said, one of the platforms is, nobody gets to sleep on the streets, period. That's it. And I got killed.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I have to tell you, I was.

[Kara Swisher]

Like, it's not good for the people on the streets. It's not good for the people who live there. It's not good for children. It's not good.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, this is.

[Kara Swisher]

People did go crazy, though.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm sure they went crazy. But today you'd probably get a ticker tape parade. But to me, those are examples. And I also, you know, I will say this. The people that said defund the police doesn't mean that. Well, then don't use the English language. Try any other language, but not that. So to me, you know, I gotta be honest. I mean, maybe this will be the end. We have always been a tolerant party and an accepting party. We became an advocacy party. Now I get discussions about bathroom access. It's just. Problem is, it is literally shutting down a discussion about reading, math and writing. And that is why you send kids to school. And there's a discussion here and an argument that is consuming what should be a discussion. And it is literally silencing a discussion which is core to 99 point to winning. Not just a note, not just winning. Winning the future, not just winning an election. I'm sorry. Kids are being sent to school for basic academic accomplishments and that conversation is not happening. That is unfair. You know, one of the things about politics is sound is not always fury. And I'm sorry, it is an important conversation. It's just not more important than reading, writing and math. And the schools are failing in their primary task.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think that happened on topics like trans issues was another thing that worked for Trump. Ads that highlighted Harris support for government funded gender affirming surgery for inmates were very effective. A strong majority of voters think that trans women shouldn't be allowed to play women's sports. They just passed that rule. How do you thread that needle? By being tolerant, like you say, which is a civil rights issue. Trans rights are. And the moral one. And also meeting voters where they're at. Does that come later or do you abandon.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It's your job to kind of put these in stark terms for that purpose. But it's not that you abandon it. You just don't let it be the only thing you're identified with and or more importantly, I mean, you got four kids. I guarantee that the priorities on. When you were thinking of school, you did not sit at the kitchen table or the living room or the family room or up at night with your partner and your wife and say, you know what, let's discuss what bathrooms are used. You probably said we were going to pick this school because we like the principal, we like their academic background, we like that. I'm not against. And again, I'm trying to say this because I don't want to go into a witness protection plan in our party. I'm not against a discussion about bathroom transgenders and a culture of acceptance. That's for the principal to do. And I'm for that and an extent of acceptance because a child going through transition is difficult. It cannot, though, silence a discussion about education and the best way for us politically. And not just there's a policy part, but since we're talking about the politics, to then have a discussion by proposing ideas.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Unknown]

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[Rahm Emanuel]

They're more loose fitting than form fitting, so they're not the most attractive. They're tight. They still fit.

[Unknown]

Maybe my thigh, one thigh, it's stretched.

[Kara Swisher]

Out because like I do a lot of squats.

[Rahm Emanuel]

If I am wearing this in public, I am at my lowest of low.

[Unknown]

I'd be very embarrassed if anybody saw these old underwear. Okay, we can admit it. We all have that one undergarment stashed in the back of the drawer that's just a bit past its prime. And maybe they are hot pink.

[Kara Swisher]

They're definitely hot pink.

[Unknown]

Rainbow polka dots.

[Kara Swisher]

They're white, they have a red trim.

[Unknown]

And you've probably had these ancient undies longer than you care to admit. Like maybe since middle school. August 7, 2016 20:12 they are very old, but I feel like I've literally just never thrown them away. And maybe there's a reason your faded boxers or your stretched out bra has survived decades of closet cleanouts.

[Rahm Emanuel]

They remind me of a time when, you know, I was just getting started. Beginning adulthood. There's a sense of nostalgia.

[Unknown]

I get it. Change is hard, but you are constantly evolving and it's time to let your underwear drawer evolve along with you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So I think in order to toss them out, I'd have to find a replacement that fits my current style.

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[Rahm Emanuel]

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[Rahm Emanuel]

That's BetterHelp.

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[Kara Swisher]

So every episode we get a topic expert to send us a question. This is slightly off this topic we're talking about, so let's Hear yours.

[Amanda Littman]

I'm Amanda Lipman, co founder and president of Run for Something. We recruit and support young diverse leaders to run for state and local office in all 50 states states which is connected to my question for you Mr. Ambassador. Back in 2006, un then DNC chair Howard Dean quite infamously got into a fight about a 50 state strategy. And in the short term your hyper focus on targeting exclusively battlegrounds helped flip the House. In the years since Dems and especially Democratic donors have failed to build long term infrastructure basically everywhere outside of the battlegrounds. Now while I'm not sure that would have won Kamala the election in 2024, it absolutely leaves us behind as we look to make up ground nearly everywhere and as we try to re expand the Senate map in the next few years and consider how the Electoral College map will change post 2030 census. So I'm wondering if in retrospect you think that kind of hyper targeting was a little bit short term thinking and how you think Dems should think about geographic prioritization and resource allocation moving forward. Thanks.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I don't think it was short term because you now have have senators from the in the US Senate from the I mean Chris Murphy out of Connecticut. 06 baby. Kristen Gillibrand out of New York, Governor Walsh in Minnesota. 06 I mean I can go down Governor Paulus out of Colorado. I think that was 08 but same period. So no I don't think it was short term because a lot of the people in fact we also had people in North Carolina, we had people in Georgia, we had people in Kentucky, we had people in Indiana. Three Democrats in fact seats that flipped and one of them became a US Senator, Joe Donnelly and then he became ambassador to the Vatican. So I don't want to sit here and go through it, but I think I gave you enough to work with. So the idea and you know Governor Dean when and you got to go put it in context but since you decided to give Me PTSD again about 06, I'll do it. We had lost in 2000, 2002 and 2004 and donors walked off the field, candidates walked out the field and my job was to both recruit candidates in districts and to give Nancy Pelosi the gavel. That was my job. The party was broken. We ran candidates across the country in the districts and we picked the lock to a electoral member that was designed to prohibitively elect Democrats. We picked a lot. Now we happened to do it because it was after President Bush's war in Iraq. The country and the beginnings of the financial scandal and housing problems were beginning to take a toll. We developed the 6 and 0 6, but no, I don't think it was short term because when you look at the long term, there are governors and senators, ambassadors there. So second, second is I'm on a roll, I just got a tax, so I'm going.

[Kara Swisher]

It's not a taxing. What do we do now? I think that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, but well, I still believe so.

[Kara Swisher]

It had its payoffs. Is your point?

[Rahm Emanuel]

A. It's had its payoffs. Thank you for the shorthand. The second piece is I still believed since it worked in 06, 08, 2018 and 2022, we had developed something that had not been worked on, which is that the recruitment, the messenger is the message, the idea, and I'll never forget this, I had to defend the strategy in the caucus very early on and I was attacked for not recruiting Democrats. That's what I was told. These aren't real Democrats because they were Iraq, Afghanistan veterans, they were sheriffs, they were football players, they were small business owners. And I said the idea is in that district to elect a Democrat who reflected that district. The Upper west side of Manhattan is not South Bend, Indiana just isn't. And we could find somebody that makes the donor class in Upper west side of New York comfortable. But that's not going to make the voters of the South Bend, Indiana. Now at the end of the day, are they going to vote right on the gavel? Are they going to support the 6 and 0 6? They all voted for the minimum wage increase. They all voted for Nancy Pelosi to be speaker. I'm good with that. That was my job. And I think it's the right thing to do. Because when you go back and then start looking at 08 and start looking at 2018, our successful, not just midterm elections, but elections of getting some of the most promising people. And Tim Walsh is a good friend. The governor of Minnesota, when you look at his case or you look at the senator from Michigan that just got elected, they have a military background, they have a profile that brings in a set of voters that culturally, not policy wise, culturally were blocked from seeing the Democrats. And because there was a comfort level, there was a segment of voters that then became open. Now one of the things, if you look at where the party was post2024, etcetera, etcetera. Politics is about addiction, not subtraction. You take a 20 year look at the Democratic Party, we have now lost Silicon Valley, we're losing black men Hispanic men. We are actually doing subtraction. You gotta stop digging, stop it and start growing again. And to me, the messenger is part of the message. When you want to bring independent voters, weak Democrats back into the fold, you have to find a messenger that gives them a comfort level of listening to everything else. That shouldn't be so hard.

[Kara Swisher]

And for a congressional now, right now, what should they do about geographic prioritization and resource allocation? You thought about running for the DNC head. You did not?

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I have in my life won election. And that wasn't. I mean, I care about it. It just wasn't the election. I wanted to run as like mayor and congressman, caucus chair or something like that, I think. So look, you have to take an assessment. So I'm not doing this. But at least on the congressional level and somewhat true on the Senate level, and you look at it and say, okay, you have to have some sense, okay, this is where we're going to be in 2025. And when I say 2025, because you're going to have both New Jersey and Virginia governors races open, you have good candidates there. All came out of military. Yeah. And some midterm elections. Look at Virginia. The congresswoman, if she's the nominee, has a military background, came in one of the midterms, 2018. And I would make sure the recruitment and the testing, not only for governor, but for the other constitutional officers, state legislative, that's a laboratory that should be informative to where you're going to go in 2026, even though that process is starting already. And it's not an accident. I mean, you think about the Virginia governor's race last time, schools became the issue. Youngson ran about schools and as did Terry, and it became the issue. It led something to what Governor Den DeSantis started to talk about in other governors because they're laboratories politically for what has saliency. And so that's how I would look at it.

[Kara Swisher]

So I'm going to wrap up with some foreign policy questions. One of your main goals as ambassador to Japan was countering China's influence. You and I talked about this. Both of us very concerned. When we talked last time on your way out, you said the big five defense counterfeiters Ms. Deadlines, go over budget, spend way too much money on stock buybacks, and have zero sense of urgency or understanding how America's deterrence and security commitments are being undermined. Very quickly, what do we do right now about China, especially deterring President Xi of attempting to take Taiwan by force?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay, there's like six things. One, I would ban the big five from any stock buyback for the next six years until they get back on track full stop. Raytheon and Lockheed together did $19 billion in stock buyback and 4 billion in capital expense for new plants. That's just unacceptable. And it's the only business model I know of where failure is rewarded with no kind. You're not going to get new stuff until you fix. Second, for affirmative action for small businesses and startups in the defense industry. And third, I would give Ukraine's drone industries huge amount of investment from the United States government and you get to. That would be the way we stand up the defense industry. 40% of their weapons today are self made. That wasn't. I mean made in Ukraine.

[Kara Swisher]

They're going to be enormous force once they get back on their feet.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, the creed. I hate to say this because it's a horrible way to talk about it, but they have a frame between idea and production of one month. We couldn't do it in 10 years on a drone. It's ridiculous. And that's an opportunity. Second Tiji and this gets to what's happening today in the news when we're talking about this. The idea that you are going to empower your adversaries and endanger your allies is crazy. Now one of the things I worked on with Gina Raimondo, the former I'm sorry Commerce Secretary and Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor and Tony Blinken was export controls on high tech to China. Why were they effective? Not totally effective, but better than what we had. Japan, Korea, South Korea, Taiwan and the Dutch all stood with the United States. Now you tell me how an ally is going to stand with you on export controls to prevent prevent the Red army from the next generation of technology when you just told your allies to go pound dirt. What's happening in Ukraine and with Russia is going to massively destroy the United States greatest foreign policy strengths. Look, Russia and China have two principles. Spheres of influence and power. Might makes right. We believe in e pluribilism alliances out of many 1. And our economic and physical security come from our values, ideals and our alliances. What is Greenland, Panama and Canada as the 51st state all have in common? We have now adopted the geographic the idea of spheres of influence. We've always believed our values have no geographic limitations. Now all of a sudden we're going to adopt the principle one that spheres of influence exist. And the way we're working is that might equals right. But if you're a small country or A minor country. Sit on the sideline, we'll tell you about your sovereignty and independence. So think about what's going on in Ukraine. We said to Russia, you get all the geography you want. You also get no Ukrainian navy, NATO, we get the minerals and Ukraine gets to give their sovereignty up. That's basically what we said. And to me, China's looking at this, saying, you're pissing off the allies. Now, how do you look at this? You talk to me about Taiwan or anything on China. I always say this to everybody. I've said it for the last two years. What are you talking about? Taiwan. Talk about the South China Sea and Philippines. Philippines is a nation. Taiwan is not a nation. Philippines is a treaty ally. Taiwan is not. We just finished a military exercise. The United States Navy, Japanese Navy and the French Navy in the South China Sea as suddenly very clear deterrence to China. This is not just the Philippines. There's this thing called the cavalry right behind it. We're sending a signal if you're another country, both either in the Indo Pacific or in Europe, that has been now focused on the South China Sea. And the Italians were. Aircraft carrier was just in the South China Sea as well. You're sending a signal that there would be no American allies. Why would we ask the American. And I'm saying this as a father with two Navy children, why would you ask the American kids to not do something when the Japanese, the French, the Australians, the Italians were willing to be part of this? It not only adds credibility to deterrence strength. Strength deters aggression. Weakness fights it. And I think so this is linked.

[Kara Swisher]

To what's happening in the South China and what they're doing in Russia when these.

[Rahm Emanuel]

China is all over this.

[Kara Swisher]

It's watching this very much.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Not just watching it, they're interpreting it and they have interpreted. Now, I say this also. The Russians are referring. You're doing this interview today just after Saudi Arabia, they're referring this as negotiations. The Americans came out and referred to as it as mediation. Well, negotiations, mediation are not the same thing. I don't. Maybe it happened while we were in here in this studio. Did you see the similar conference with the Ukrainians? Because if we're mediating, that's what you do. That's what that's correct. We did. They got literally a phone call with.

[Kara Swisher]

A readout which then China is paying attention to when it comes to Taiwan.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And China cares. And I keep saying this, I'll say it again. They care about the South China Sea. They have called it their back pond and you have Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, and the Philippines who now trust us as allies. Why would you.

[Kara Swisher]

Why would you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And Philippines is a treaty ally. Vietnam just raised the United States as a strategic partner.

[Kara Swisher]

What is the end game here, then, with him?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, well, I do think. I don't fault Putin. I've written about. This is the one article you didn't quote me on. I mean, Putin and Xi, they're gonna use his vanity, so we should use his vanity. And my view is the president has two motivating factors, his own vanity and looking like he won something. Use the vanity against him, because that's what the president's North Star is. It is not the United. Let me say this. If you're worried about ensuring that there's no young men and women dying in Europe in the future, we have done the worst set of things to do that.

[Kara Swisher]

Agreed. So, last two questions. You've been involved in multiple rounds of negotiations with Israelis and Palestinians. You panned Trump's plan also to ethnically cleanse Gaza, which is, I think, what it is. What do you think Democrats who love Israel do to prevent Trump's plan from poisoning our relationship with Arab allies, the other allies who are now looking at askance and emboldening the extreme right in Israel?

[Rahm Emanuel]

The president is endangering the Arabs that were going to be a partnership in confronting Iran. That's the danger of what he said in Gaza, is you are on the precipice of finally isolating Iran, not just losing Syria, not just losing Lebanon. And that's the danger.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, last, very last question. So you don't seem afraid you're not done with politics. Will you be running for office or joining a president?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, as I said before, look, you.

[Kara Swisher]

Sort of mentioned it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I'm not done with public service, and I'm hoping public service is not done for me. So we'll see how that plays out. It's very early.

[Kara Swisher]

Very early. Senate Congress. No, Senate's too small for you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

We'll see how it plays out.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

All right.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll leave it at that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Bye. Bye.

[Kara Swisher]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor Wisel, Kateri Yochum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Caitlin La Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher and Annika Robbins. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get to visit your own CNN Green Room with me and Ram, but not Scott Jennings. If not, you're stuck with getting drinks and dinner with not sexy MAGA youth. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.