Sarah Silverman on Being Wrong – and Treating Trolls with Kindness (from ReThinking with Adam Grant)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Sarah Silverman on Being Wrong – and Treating Trolls with Kindness"

Podcast Information:

• Title: On with Kara Swisher
• Host/Author: Vox Media
• Episode: Sarah Silverman on Being Wrong – and Treating Trolls with Kindness (from ReThinking with Adam Grant)
• Release Date: December 26, 2024

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1. Introduction to Sarah Silverman and Her Career

Timestamp: [02:07] - [04:23]

Kara Swisher introduces the episode by highlighting that it features Sarah Silverman, a multifaceted comedian known for her roles in Saturday Night Live, Seinfeld, Broadway, late-night TV, and Disney animated movies. Adam Grant, the host of Rethinking, expresses his admiration for Silverman's ability to blend humor with deep thought.

• Adam Grant: "Her latest HBO special, Sarah, Someone You Love, cracked me up. I was excited to talk with Sarah about courage, compassion, and her shockingly effective approach to engaging with jerks." ([02:38])

Silverman reflects on her comedic journey, emphasizing the importance of finding joy in life over legacy.

• Sarah Silverman: "My experience of life is more important to me than the idea of legacy... I'm trying to really find joy in life and if I can be funny as well, that's great." ([02:07])

2. The Genesis of Boldness in Comedy

Timestamp: [04:23] - [07:13]

Adam delves into Silverman's bold comedic style, seeking to understand how she developed the courage to tackle difficult topics.

• Adam Grant: "One of the things that I've admired most about you, Sarah, is your boldness. You say things that I would be afraid to think, let alone speak. And I want to know how you got that way." ([04:09])

Silverman recounts a childhood experience where her father taught her to swear, leading her to find joy in shocking adults without facing their anger.

• Sarah Silverman: "I found this gift I had been given by my father where I could shock the grownups, but they would not get mad. It created a monster and a skill." ([04:23])

She further explains how facing ridicule head-on taught her that acknowledgment and inclusion can diffuse potential negativity.

• Sarah Silverman: "If it's mentionable, it's manageable... Like Mr. Rogers, because they became my friends. They laughed at me, and they saw that they could laugh at me in front of me." ([06:19])

3. Engaging with Trolls: A Story of Compassion

Timestamp: [07:13] - [15:07]

A pivotal moment in the conversation revolves around Silverman's unique approach to handling internet trolls. Instead of responding with aggression, she chooses empathy and understanding.

• Adam Grant: "Sarah, a few years ago, I got to see a different side of you when you replied to an Internet troll." ([07:13])

Silverman narrates her interaction with a troll who insulted her, leading to an unexpected and compassionate relationship.

• Sarah Silverman: "He called me a cunt... I clicked on his profile and I read some of his tweets, and I saw that he had severe back pain. So I responded. Just connecting with him... we developed this friendship." ([07:13])

Adam is intrigued by her ability to see beyond the insults and connect on a human level.

• Adam Grant: "I can't even imagine wanting to engage with this person." ([08:00])

Silverman emphasizes the importance of understanding the pain behind aggression, referencing her father's struggles and her own resources to cope with anger.

• Sarah Silverman: "I recognize it... I can find a way in. I feel connected to that because I recognize it." ([08:16])

She shares another encounter where she transformed a confrontation into a positive interaction through kindness, likening it to "pro social jiu jitsu."

• Sarah Silverman: "I said, hold on... can you believe this? We were enemies, and now we're best friends." ([15:07])

This section underscores Silverman's philosophy of responding to negativity with empathy, aiming to transform interactions rather than escalate them.

4. The Psychology Behind Kindness and Empathy

Timestamp: [15:07] - [22:13]

Adam explores the psychological foundations of Silverman's approach, likening her methods to psychological theories that advocate for meeting aggression with empathy to defuse it.

• Adam Grant: "There's a foundation for it in psychology... you're diffusing it by countering their expectations, making them feel seen and understood." ([19:12])

Silverman reflects on the effectiveness of gestures of care, questioning whether it's a form of manipulation but affirming its positive outcomes.

• Sarah Silverman: "I find a lot of success in gestures of care. And, you know, is that a form of manipulation? Yeah, maybe." ([20:51])

Grant suggests that Silverman's approach could inspire broader societal changes towards more respectful and compassionate interactions.

• Adam Grant: "It seems like an investment in creating a more respectful community or at least planting those seeds of a different kind of behavior." ([21:54])

Silverman acknowledges the potential risks but maintains that the benefits of spreading good energy outweigh them.

• Sarah Silverman: "Good energy is also catchy. It may be a couple digits less catchy than negative energy, but that means we need more of it." ([22:13])

5. Personal Relationships and Vulnerability

Timestamp: [22:13] - [25:19]

The conversation shifts to Silverman's personal relationships, emphasizing the importance of having a "challenge network"—friends who can both support and candidly critique.

• Sarah Silverman: "That's the only person you care about making laugh... I have three sisters... I have a relationship that's strong enough where somebody can just call you out directly." ([25:19])

She shares a poignant moment where vulnerability in relationships provided strength and understanding.

• Adam Grant: "You sold me on that. That is such a good example of a friend, not just being a support network, but also a challenge network." ([25:32])

This segment highlights the balance between compassion and accountability in personal connections, fostering growth and resilience.

6. Upcoming Projects and Personal Reflections

Timestamp: [33:09] - [35:54]

Silverman introduces her new tour, "Postmortem," which delves into personal loss and grief with humor and honesty.

• Sarah Silverman: "It's called Postmortem because it's actually about my dad and my stepmother who died a year ago... I'm on tour during the election." ([33:09])

She describes the emotional complexity of performing her grief, finding solace and healing through comedy.

• Sarah Silverman: "I was like, oh, this is really good... I ache for them. But it's really nice, too." ([33:24])

Adam acknowledges the depth of her work, appreciating her ability to find humor amidst tragedy.

• Adam Grant: "I love Sarah's observation that energy can't be created or destroyed, but it can be changed." ([34:24])

7. Lightning Round: Personal Insights and Predictions

Timestamp: [27:31] - [32:55]

In a lighter segment, Adam and Silverman engage in a rapid-fire exchange, revealing personal anecdotes and opinions.

• Worst Advice Received:

  • Sarah Silverman: "Only babies cry." ([27:36])

• Best Advice Received:

  • Sarah Silverman: "Don't learn to protect yourself from that because love is worth risking that kind of pain." ([28:04])

• Unpopular Opinion:

  • Sarah Silverman: "I'm right now enjoying Call of Duty... I find joy out of this." ([28:55])

• Prediction for Comedy:

  • Sarah Silverman: "Comedy always finds a way... There's just such brilliant stuff out there." ([29:35])

• Personal Question Answer:

  • Adam Grant: Shares his experience of being a shy kid and the impact of a friend stealing his basketball.
  • Sarah Silverman: Comments on the lasting impression of seemingly trivial childhood events. ([31:01])

This segment offers a glimpse into Silverman's personal philosophies and future outlook, reinforcing her resilience and adaptability.

8. Conclusion and Closing Thoughts

Timestamp: [34:46] - [35:54]

As the conversation winds down, Silverman reflects on the therapeutic nature of her comedy, especially in dealing with personal loss.

• Sarah Silverman: "I have no idea what I was saying... Please let things. Please let this be menopause and not dementia." ([35:44])

Adam wraps up by appreciating the depth and refreshment brought by Silverman's insights, emphasizing the importance of her compassionate approach.

• Adam Grant: "I love Sarah's observation that energy can't be created or destroyed, but it can be changed." ([34:24])

---

Key Takeaways:

• Empathy Over Aggression: Sarah Silverman's method of responding to negativity with understanding and compassion can transform hostile interactions into meaningful connections.
• Personal Growth Through Vulnerability: Embracing flaws and being open to being wrong fosters stronger, more authentic relationships.
• Balancing Humor and Grief: Using comedy as a tool to navigate personal loss offers both healing and a way to connect with others.
• The Power of Positive Energy: Spreading good energy, though less immediately attention-grabbing than negative energy, has the potential to create lasting positive change in communities.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Silverman ([06:53]): "You can use that force, their own inertia or force."
• Adam Grant ([19:32]): "Is there a risk that you're reinforcing the behavior?"
• Sarah Silverman ([25:32]): "That's the only person you care about making laugh. It's a massive relief to be. To realize I'm wrong."

---

This episode of "On with Kara Swisher" offers an in-depth exploration of Sarah Silverman's unique approach to comedy and life, blending humor with profound empathy. Listeners gain valuable insights into transforming negative interactions, the importance of authentic relationships, and finding joy amidst personal challenges.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Hi folks and happy holidays. The on team is off, so today we're gonna play you an episode of my friend Adam Grant's podcast, Rethinking. In this episode, Adam speaks with the hilarious and wonderful comedian, actor and writer Sarah Silverman. They talk about Silverman's winding career from Saturday Night Live to Seinfeld to Broadway late night TV and even Disney animated movies. And they have a really great conversation about diffusing anger and forging connections even when we don't see eye to eye. That is perfect for this time of year. Enjoy Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty. Get ready to start with Feeling Good and Elf's new album can help you find the spark. Get Ready With Music the album is a collection of inspiring songs from emerging global artists that brings together beauty and music in a unique way. The album comes from Elf Beauty's new entertainment arm, Elf Made Every Eye, Lip and Face has a unique story to tell and it becomes even richer with a soundtrack you can enjoy. Get Ready With Music the album on Spotify, Apple Music, iHeart, YouTube and TikTok.

[Adam Grant]

Support for this show comes from Google Gemini, an AI assistant you can talk to anytime you need help brainstorming, prepping for something important like an interview or exam, or just learning something new. And the best part is you already know how to use it. Just open the app, start talking and Gemini will do the rest. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. You can download the Gemini app for free on iOS or Android. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live.

[Klaviyo]

Support for this show comes from Klaviyo. You're building a business. Klaviyo helps you grow it. Klaviyo's AI powered marketing platform puts all your customer data plus email, SMS and analytics in one place. With Klaviyo Tinned Fish phenom, Fish Wife delivers real time, personalized experiences that keeps their customers hooked. They've grown 70 times revenue in just four years with Klaviyo. Now that's scale. Visit K L-A-V-I-Y-O.com to learn how brands like Fish Wife build smarter digital relationships. With Klaviyo.

[Sarah Silverman]

My experience of life is more important to me than the idea of legacy or like I'll be dead. I don't know. I'm trying to really find joy in in life and if I can be funny as well, that's great. And if I can't, I'm still gonna choose being okay over despair or misplaced anger or needing to prove something.

[Adam Grant]

Hey Everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is comedian Sarah Silverman. I've been a fan ever since I first saw her on Seinfeld and SNL in the 90s, and my kids love her as Vanellope in Wreck It Ralph. She hosts the Sarah Silverman Podcast and is touring the US this fall and winter for her new show, Postmortem. Sarah's a rare comic who makes me laugh hard and think hard. Her latest HBO special, sarah, someone you love, cracked me up. I was excited to talk with Sarah about courage, compassion, and her shockingly effective approach to engaging with jerks. As you'll see, she's unusually candid. Sarah Silverman, how often do people tell you that you are one of their top four favorite comedians?

[Sarah Silverman]

Now more often than ever.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, my kids also want to know, is it possible that you can do this entire conversation in character as Vanellope?

[Sarah Silverman]

I mean, I'll try. Your face is so sweet, so good.

[Adam Grant]

I love it.

[Sarah Silverman]

I'll try it. But I've got pixlex.

[Adam Grant]

One of the things that I've admired most about you, Sarah, is, is your boldness. You say things that I would be afraid to think, let alone speak. And I want to know how you got that way.

[Sarah Silverman]

I had a father who thought it was hilarious to teach his toddler swears he didn't do it with my older, all my sisters, but with me he did. And we were at Boys Market in Manchester, New Hampshire, and I just screamed out all these swears he had taught. And I was three. And the experience of all these adults around me giving me wild affirmation despite themselves, an addiction was born. I remember just feeling this kind of glee that made my arms itch. I found this gift I had been given by my father where I could shock the grownups, but they would not get mad, they would laugh. It created a monster and a skill. I mean, since I was 6, I was going to sleepover camp while I was a bedwetter till I was about 16. So it was awful for me. It was a lesson in total disassociation. But I remember making some friends. And I loved Mork and Mindy, and I had. And I loved Robin Williams and I had the big rainbow suspenders that I thought were so cool, and I wore them over my camp you uniform. And these girls were kind of a clique, and they were like these cool girls, and they're like, oh, we love your suspenders. And I'm like, aren't they cool? You know? And then we went on a hike, and they were kind of behind me, and I could hear them, like, giggling and making fun of me a little bit. And then I turned around and I said, are you guys making fun of me because of my suspenders? Are they not cool? I just said it, blurted it out, and it's really like, if it's mentionable, it's manageable. Like Mr. Rogers, because they became my friends. Like, they. They laughed at me, and they saw that they could laugh at me in.

[Adam Grant]

Front of me, which I hope made it more laughing with you.

[Sarah Silverman]

If I could be included. Even if they're laughing at me, I was thrilled, especially because that made me the center. That was a really good lesson. You know, I could have stayed in my head, heard them snickering about me and making fun of me and internalized it. There's some kind of martial arts, and I only learned about it on, like, season five of Walking Dead or something where you use the force of the. The force coming towards you. Does that ring a bell? I just thought maybe that's what it's called. Is that what jiu jitsu is?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Sarah Silverman]

You know, so someone's running at you with all their force, and you use that force, their own inertia or force.

[Adam Grant]

Exactly. It's jiu jitsu. You're using people's force, not against them, but for them. So, Sarah, a few years ago, I got to see a different side of you when you replied to an Internet troll.

[Sarah Silverman]

He called me a cunt. I mean, I don't usually read comments just out of self preservation, but of course, sometimes I do, and I saw it, and it was something mean, you know, whatever. And I was walking my dog, I remember, actually, and I clicked on his profile and I read some of his tweets, and I saw that he had severe back pain. And I totally relate to that. And so I responded. Just connecting with him on that, I don't know. And then we just started connecting, and then we moved to direct message. And most of our relationship was there.

[Adam Grant]

There are a bunch of things that. That I just found extraordinary about this story. The first one is I can't even imagine wanting to engage with this person.

[Sarah Silverman]

It's truly irrelevant because it has nothing to do with me at all. If it were personal, if he said I was an unfunny Cunt. Then it would tinge a little bit.

[Adam Grant]

You know, what motivated you to look at his timeline?

[Sarah Silverman]

I'm always curious, I'm always curious if I see something very hateful or just kind of base. I'm, I'm curious to see the person behind it a little bit, whatever that avatar is. And so often it's, I love my country and I, God is number one or whatever. It's like very ironic. But I, I, I also am familiar with rage and I'm familiar with the feeling of pain and the very unconscious knee jerk desire to want to inflict the same pain on somebody right away, whoever's in front of you. And I mean, that's something my dad had to deal with and he did not so well. And then very well. And then I've had a lot of opportunity and resources to deal with myself. And so I can find a way in. I feel connected to that because I recognize it.

[Adam Grant]

It's, it's so unusual, especially in this era, right, for you to see that kind of behavior and say, all right, not only am I going to empathize with this person, but I'm going to respond with compassion. I'm not just going to read to you what you wrote because I went and looked at it.

[Sarah Silverman]

Oh my God, you found.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, of course I found it. I did it.

[Sarah Silverman]

I'm on the edge of my seat. Oh, God.

[Adam Grant]

Okay, ready? Here's what you said in response to him insulting you. I believe in you. I read your timeline and I see what you're doing and your rage is thinly veiled pain, but you know that I know this feeling. P.S. my back fucking sucks too. See what happens when you choose love? I see it in you.

[Sarah Silverman]

You know, the fraud part of me goes, I don't know, someone with like a messiah complex. This exists in a lot of comedians because. And in the unhealthy version, when you're a comic and everyone's laughing and there's one person not laughing, that's the only person you care about making laugh. And I don't think that's healthy. I think it's better to see all these people listening and watching and laughing and joyful and open, but you see that one closed person or the one, you know, whatever, and you're laser focused on it. I believe that 100% of comics become funny as a means of surviving childhood. And so often those things that we learn are things that we really need to unlearn in adulthood. If they don't, they don't serve us anymore. But because it's our career, it serves us. But that's, you know, something to navigate. I There are comics that don't want to be happy because they're afraid they won't be funny. And I might be the perfect example of that one way or another. Because of course there's people online going, remember when you used to be funny? There are people that find me very funny now. But. But there is something about that fire that is good and it's finding a balance, I guess.

[Adam Grant]

Look, I think everybody is vulnerable to a white knight complex at some point. It's hard for me to imagine though, that you really crave the approval of an Internet troll. And I still think it counts as a meaningful act of kindness that you reached out to this person and you didn't stop there. You had a whole conversation with him and he apologized to you and you ended up offering to pay his medical bills and you developed this friendship and I don't think you should be so dismissive of it.

[Sarah Silverman]

And I think the reason why you bringing this up now, I have a little bit of a heavy heart is because we lost touch. I couldn't find him and I was just left worried. I don't know what happened to him.

[Adam Grant]

Well, Jeremy, if you're listening, Sarah Silverman is looking for you.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty. One of the most tried and true self care rituals out there is getting all done up and listening to great music while you do. In fact, according to data from Elf Beauty, 92% of women said listening to music while getting ready boosts their mood. And now you can listen to a special album by Elf Get Ready with Music. The album is a collection of inspiring songs that bridge the worlds of beauty and music. The album features 13 original songs by emerging global artists and brings together authentic artistry and storytelling in a unique and transformative way. Because every eye, lip and face has a unique story to tell and it becomes even richer with a soundtrack. The album comes from Elf Beauty's new entertainment arm, Elf Made. Just like how Elf disrupted the beauty industry, that's their goal with Entertainment via Elf Made showing up in unexpected places to connect with you. You can enjoy Get Ready With Music the album on Spotify, Apple Music, iHeart, YouTube and TikTok.

[Google Gemini]

Support for this show comes from Google Gemini Imagine an AI assistant that doesn't just spit out answers, but that you can have a real conversation with. You can use Gemini to brainstorm ideas, prepare for something big like a test or presentation, or to just learn something new and the best part is it's easy to use to get started. All you need to do is start talking. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. You can download the Gemini app on iOS or Android free of charge. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live.

[Klaviyo]

Support for this show comes from Klaviyo. You're building a business. Klaviyo helps you grow it. Klaviyo's AI powered marketing platform puts all your customer data plus email, SMS and analytics in one place. With Klaviyo Tinned Fish phenom, Fish Wife delivers real time personalized experiences that keeps their customers hooked. They've grown 70 times revenue in just four years with Klaviyo. Now that's scale. Visit Klaviyo.com to learn how brands like Fishwife build smarter digital relationships with Klaviyo.

[Adam Grant]

Jeremy gave an interview a couple weeks later and he said, I was once a giving and nice person, but too many things destroyed that and I became bitter and hateful. Then Sarah showed me the way. Don't get me wrong, I still got a long way to go, but it's a start.

[Sarah Silverman]

I just think our purpose is taking care of each other. If we can realize that, boy, I mean, I just think we'd all be happier.

[Adam Grant]

I just looked at that and thought, I wonder if, if this can scale, could more people do this? I wonder how much of it mattered because you're famous. And if a random, if, if he had been interacting with a random person, would it have had the same impact on him? Would he have stopped and said, huh, like there's a real person there?

[Sarah Silverman]

I think it would have. It's energy. And it's not just because I moved to California. I, I think it's science. It's not subjective. It's subjective. Energy exists. And I mean they do say it cannot be created nor destroyed.

[Adam Grant]

Thermodynamics. I did not expect a thermodynamics reference.

[Sarah Silverman]

In this conversation, but it can be changed. And I did have an experience of changing energy with a guy who was screaming at me outside of a weed store. He said that I, I bumped into his car with my car and I consciously thought this is an opportunity to see if I can change this energy. Because he screamed at me, got out of his car, screamed at me and then my heart was pounding and it was converting into rage. And I just said, hold on, I can catch this energy or I can try to change it. And by the end we were, we hugged and we were laughing and it was so successful. It was clear that his rage was not created from me. I, I really did not touch his car when I was parking. I didn't even kiss it. But he had decided whatever was going on with him, he needed this. You know, you went right into my car, and, oh. And he said, and you're a woman, so I can't even do anything about it. Like, well, you're gonna punch me, you know? And I got out and I go, show me the damage, because I'm gonna pay for this. I'm gonna make this right. And he goes, don't forget it. I said, no, I want to see. I, I, I'm going to pay for this. I'm a woman of means, and I'm responsible, and I'm going to pay for this. He goes, forget it. Just don't worry about it. It's fine. You know, there was no scratch, but so he backed off of that. And I said, well, I'm going to the pot store and I'm going to buy you pot. What's your preference? He goes, don't you have to do that? I go, I'm doing it. And he goes, the full body one. I go, indica. Okay. I go into the pot store, and I, I'm standing in line and I get him a big indica, like spliff, and, and I'm getting some other things, and I'm still in line, and the security guard there said, hey, the meter person is stopping. You're, you're gonna get a ticket. And I go, shit. And then he goes, oh, that guy that was yelling at you is putting change in your meter. And I go, you know, like, I just, it was a love language. And I said, can you believe this? We were enemies, and now we're best friends. And I just, I left there beaming.

[Adam Grant]

That's such a sweet story. I do feel like if this were your standup routine, you would have been like. And then I found out I gave him Covid, and he totally deserved it.

[Sarah Silverman]

And he passed away.

[Adam Grant]

Okay. There's a pattern here, which is you respond to these people who are nasty and aggressive by being aggressively kind.

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And it works. It reaches them.

[Sarah Silverman]

People are just in so much pain and have no tools. You know, I play Call of Duty. This is probably not healthy at all. It doesn't, I don't know that it's doing anything good for me, but lately it's. This is what I enjoy. Wow. And I've always played, like, just with bots. And then I started playing with real people, but I'm on mute, and they're on mute. And then I put, I unmuted the people and they were like 14 year old going, fucking kill yourself, dude. And like just screaming at me because I suck.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, no.

[Sarah Silverman]

It's a very dark place. I mean, we were saying, really a lot of language that you don't hear in polite society anymore. The game will be over and then all the scores are up and you can see who's talking and what their score is. And I'm always last, almost always last. And I'll go, you know what? Whatever score you got. You guys, I'm so proud of all of you. We should all be proud. And then they see who's saying it and they're so mad. And for some reason it tickles me, which is another side of me, I guess.

[Adam Grant]

I think what you're doing, there's a foundation for it in psychology, right? Which is what most people do is they meet aggression with aggression and then it spirals and you're diffusing it by countering their expectations, making them feel seen and understood. And all of a sudden there's nothing to hit.

[Sarah Silverman]

They're showing me that they are craving care.

[Adam Grant]

I'm reminded of a riot experiment I think this was on League of Legends where they have all these players who are contributing to toxic chat, basically. And they create a tribunal where when people report a player for toxic behavior, they just display the chat logs to the community and then people vote on whether the person's behavior is toxic. And through this self policing system, they're able to get a lot of these people to reform because they see their reputation like, oh, wow, like I'm not proud of the way that I acted and a lot of people end up apologizing for it. And so it makes me wonder, like, is there a next step here where you say, okay, the first part is to show the person kindness who's being cruel. The second part is to show them the pattern of behavior they've built up. Like, here's your chat log, here's your timeline. This is the way you're showing up in the world. Is that who you want to be? Is that how you want to be seen? And for most people, the answer is hell no.

[Sarah Silverman]

I don't know. I just, I find a lot of success in gestures of care. And, you know, is that a form of manipulation? Yeah, maybe.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, if it is, it's the healthiest manipulation I can think of.

[Sarah Silverman]

I remember like the kind of new wave of feminism and trying to appeal to straight men to be feminists as going like, you're going to get so much pussy. Like, if you're, you know, like, you're like feminist marches and stuff, you know.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. You don't really want to draw people in that way for the wrong reasons.

[Sarah Silverman]

It's like the Bachelor, you know, you don't want to be there for the wrong reasons.

[Adam Grant]

I think some people would look at this, this kind of outreach that you've done and say that you're too empathetic and too forgiving.

[Sarah Silverman]

What's the downside?

[Adam Grant]

Well, if trolls are using aggression to get attention, is there a risk that you're reinforcing the behavior?

[Sarah Silverman]

Right. Like, are people now calling me a cunt online to try to connect?

[Adam Grant]

I hope that hasn't happened.

[Sarah Silverman]

99% of that is I don't respond to or. And a lot of it I don't see. But maybe. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

[Adam Grant]

And if that's how you choose to operate and your hope is that that kindness then is going to be paid forward, it seems like an investment in creating a more respectful community or at least planting those seeds of a different kind of behavior. And that seems to be an investment worth making.

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah, well, good energy is also catchy. It may be a couple digits less catchy than negative energy, but that means.

[Adam Grant]

We need more of it.

[Sarah Silverman]

Listen, I'm not a perfect driver and I mess up a lot. And what I've noticed is when they come up next to me, I'm already there waiting for them going, I'm so sorry, you know, Or I'll roll down and go, I'm a terrible driver. I'm so sorry. And I mean, it diffuses it immediately. It's pretty wild. Or even like if someone honks at me, like, or something. One thing I'll do, and this is not nice, and it's very manipulative, is I will look in my rear view mirror at them and pretend to recognize them. Like they're. I know them and go, you know? And then they. They are immediately terrified and horrified because you wouldn't do that to someone. You know, it's fun.

[Adam Grant]

I really like that. That is a way of holding up a mirror so they can see their own reflection and not like, what is staring back at them.

[Sarah Silverman]

I had a boyfriend once and we were fighting via email, back and forth, back and forth. And I have three sisters. So while it's happening, this big fight, I'm forwarding to my sisters all the back and forths because I need them to weigh in. And I accidentally one time forwarded it to him, and then he wrote back, I see that you're sending all this to your sisters. And I said, you know what? Talk to me as though all of my sisters can hear. That's how I want you to treat me.

[Adam Grant]

Is that when the relationship ended?

[Sarah Silverman]

No, I actually roaned on for a few more years.

[Adam Grant]

There's a curb episode on this. It's the accidental text on purpose. You could have planned this instead of just botching the message.

[Sarah Silverman]

No, I was like. My heart was like, oh, my God. You know that, Preston. And you're like, oh, my God. But in the end, I was just like, no. I want you to have people you talk to about this, even if you're representing it from your skewed perspective. I don't know if this is true, but it seems like men have fewer people that they talk to about their relationship, about what's going on in their lives. And I just think people need that. I went on one date with my boyfriend, my current boyfriend. We've been together for four years and was turned off for whatever reason. My own shit. And then I was FaceTiming with my best friend since high school, and I'm telling her everything, and I'm telling it from my perspective, and she just listened to it. And then she just goes, you're a fucking asshole. And I was like, what? She's like, you're so judgmental. Like, can you even imagine how he was probably nervous? He was probably, you know, whatever. And if I didn't have that. If I didn't have that sounding board, I wouldn't be with this person. That is my person. That's my family, you know?

[Adam Grant]

Now that is such a good example of a friend, not just being a support network, but also a challenge network. And I love that there's a relationship that's strong enough where somebody can just call you out directly.

[Sarah Silverman]

On that part of my living as a comedian is being flawed to me, it's like a massive relief to be. To realize I'm wrong.

[Adam Grant]

You don't even have to admit that you were wrong to say, I'm sorry for the impact my behavior had on you.

[Sarah Silverman]

Ugh, that's so great. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

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[Google Gemini]

Support for this show comes from Google Gemini. Imagine an AI assistant that doesn't just spit out answers, but that you can have a real conversation with. You can use Gemini to brainstorm ideas, prepare for something big like a test or presentation, or to just learn something new. And the best part is, it's easy to use to get started. All you need to do is start talking. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. You can download the Gemini app on iOS or Android free of charge. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live.

[Klaviyo]

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[Adam Grant]

Are you up for lightning?

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

What is the worst advice you've ever gotten?

[Sarah Silverman]

Uh, my dad, who became my best friend but was a very angry, unhinged, ragey young dad. If I cried, he would say, only babies cry. Please don't think of my father that way. He had an incredible turnaround in his older life, but that's how he dealt with tears.

[Klaviyo]

Wow.

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

How about best advice, only babies cry?

[Sarah Silverman]

No, I'm thinking of something my mom said after being hurt by a man, and I was just devastated. And we were walking in New York, she came to visit me and she said something like, don't learn to protect yourself from that because love is worth risking that kind of pain. It was something I couldn't imagine in that moment that I would ever get over this person, which is. Thinking of it now is insane. But of course, that's the joy of time.

[Adam Grant]

Sage advice.

[Sarah Silverman]

Charlie Kaufman said, don't fear. Fear failure. Where failure is a badge of honor. It means you risked failure.

[Adam Grant]

Here's. Here's one that, that I know will be easy for you. What is an unpopular opinion you currently hold?

[Sarah Silverman]

Oh, I will say I'm right now enjoying Call of Duty and I don't know why I get joy out of this, but the haptics of killing. It's just like this little Vibration from controller when you kill someone and it's incredibly satisfying and I don't understand it.

[Adam Grant]

I'm really hoping it's the haptics of success, not of killing.

[Sarah Silverman]

Oh, that makes sense.

[Adam Grant]

I won the game. What's a prediction you have for the future of comedy?

[Sarah Silverman]

Comedy always finds a way. I'm not worried about comedy. There's just such brilliant stuff out there and it's exciting and it's important for someone like me, who's getting older to be connected to it and not be out of touch. I mean, you can see when comics become very successful, they either stay in touch and grow and change or they become caricatures of this once popular thing or they become totally out of touch. They're not shopping for groceries for themselves anymore. They're not doing for themselves. They're not living a life that is necessarily relatable. So, you know, I love comedy. I'm a comedian, is who I am. I'm assuming you've seen Tim Robinson. I think you should leave.

[Adam Grant]

I haven't, should I?

[Sarah Silverman]

It is so brilliant and so funny and like nothing I've seen before.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, I'm excited to check it out.

[Sarah Silverman]

Oh, I can't wait. Will you email me and let me know? It's really something.

[Adam Grant]

What is a question you have for me?

[Sarah Silverman]

I didn't know this was a part of it.

[Adam Grant]

You don't have to ask one.

[Sarah Silverman]

What?

[Adam Grant]

I just, I always feel bad hogging the mic.

[Sarah Silverman]

What brought you to where you are? What made you interested in all this stuff? What was your inciting incident in Seeking More?

[Adam Grant]

One of the pivotal moments for me was just being a really shy, introverted kid and struggling with first making friends and then keeping friends. And I think probably when my entire friend group dropped me in middle school after one of them stole my basketball and denied it. It was such a devastating in the moment, but looking back, fascinating moment of why did this happen and what do I need to understand about people to make sure it never happens again? And it turned out to be really useful because it got me. It got me thinking about what kind of friend I wanted to be and how I wanted to treat other people. And I think it was a character building moment.

[Sarah Silverman]

And in the moment when you were a kid, what was that feeling? Were you enraged that your friend wouldn't admit that he took it and that. That feeling of being wronged. Oh my God, I see little you right now.

[Adam Grant]

I had a lot more hair. Yeah. I think at first I was confused because why would he do this to me? And then I think it turned into some kind of righteous indignation or moral outrage, and I decided I was not gonna let people treat me like that. And if that's who he was, I was gonna go find other friends. I don't wanna say I'm glad it happened, but it was a useful. It was a useful experience to go through.

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And I still want the basketball back. Allen, if you're listening, but isn't it.

[Sarah Silverman]

Funny those things that on the surface seem so silly and are really make an imprint on us, you know?

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. It still bothers me. I loved watching the emotional arc on your face as I told that story, by the way.

[Sarah Silverman]

Oh, well, I just. I could see her broken eyes. I could see little you.

[Adam Grant]

Aw. Sarah, before we wrap, I wanted to give you a chance to give us a little preview of your postmortem tour. What should we expect?

[Sarah Silverman]

It's called postmortem because it's actually about my dad and my stepmother died a year ago last May, nine days apart. And it's all about it. Just the funny parts. Well, no, all of it. A lot of it.

[Adam Grant]

I'm sorry. But also, I'm glad you found some humor in it.

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah, you know, it's. This is a really soon special for me after the last one, which came out as they were dying. And, you know, it started with my eulogy at my dad's funeral, and there was just so much good stuff there. I was like, oh, this is really good, you know, and. And I don't feel guilty about it because I know that they'd love it, especially him. And it feels good. There's like a little bit of dread every time I do it, just because it's fresh. Ish. And I ache for them. You know, I was very close with them, especially my dad, but really both of them. But it's really nice, too. So that's what it is. It's really not political. It's, you know, and I'm on tour, you know, during the election.

[Adam Grant]

This is very on brand, like you need. You need some help dealing with political stress. I have the perfect antidote for you. We're going to talk about death. That's going to be your escape.

[Sarah Silverman]

Yeah. Let's talk about lighter things like life and death and the things that are guaranteed.

[Adam Grant]

Well, Sarah, I don't. I don't want to keep you any longer, but I do want to say this has been so fun, so thought provoking and just refreshing more than anything else, because I think you're the only person I've met in a long time who loves email as much as I do.

[Sarah Silverman]

Thank you. I love talking to you. Take care.

[Adam Grant]

You too. Bye Bye. I love Sarah's observation that energy can't be created or destroyed, but it can be changed. Think of it as pro social jiu jitsu, taking the anger and rage and pain that people are expressing and trying to convert it and help the channel it towards something that's more constructive for them and for you. We need more of that in the world. Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is part of the TED Audio Collective and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley Ma and Asia Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hannah and Alison Layton Brown. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winick, Samaya Adams, Roxanne hi, Lash Ban Chang, Julia Dickerson and Whitney Pennington Rogers.

[Sarah Silverman]

I have no idea what I was saying. What was the topic? Oh my gosh, I don't know. Please let things. Please let this be menopause and not dementia.

[Klaviyo]

Support for this show comes from Google Gemini. Using Gemini is as easy as having a conversation. You can interrupt it, add details, ask follow up questions, and Gemini will adapt to you in real time. But the best way to learn about Gemini is to try it. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini Live.