Scott Galloway: How to Hit Trump Where it Hurts (Unsubscribe)

Summary

---

On with Kara Swisher – Detailed Episode Summary

Episode: Scott Galloway: How to Hit Trump Where it Hurts (Unsubscribe)
Published: February 16, 2026
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Scott Galloway

---

Episode Overview

Kara Swisher hosts marketing professor, writer, and Pivot co-host Scott Galloway to discuss his new "Resist and Unsubscribe" movement. The initiative aims to empower consumers to push back against companies enabling Trump and controversial government actions, particularly those supporting ICE, by unsubscribing from their products and services. The episode explores the mechanics, motivations, potential impact, and personal dilemmas involved in such economic protest—and whether hitting companies’ bottom lines can trigger change at the highest levels.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis and Mechanics of “Resist and Unsubscribe”

• Concept: Encourage individuals to unsubscribe from major tech and service platforms as a form of protest.
• Goal: Undermine the market cap of companies aligning with, or enabling, Trump through economic pressure, prompting CEOs to pressure Trump in turn.
• Scott’s Logic: “I've struggled my entire career with the difference between being right and being effective.” (04:36)
• Market reactions to slight changes in subscriber growth are dramatic. For example, “T Mobile was supposed to sign up 992,000 new subscribers. They announced 962 and their stock was off $12 billion in the after hours.” (05:19)
• Strategy: Redirect from traditional protest toward coordinated economic action— “the weapon hiding in plain sight.” (06:14)

2. Protest Effectiveness: Lessons from History

• Economic Protests: The Montgomery bus boycott and recent Disney-Kimmel incidents highlighted the need for sustained, economically focused protest to force change. “It needs to be a sustained build. It does need to be economic. And it's also about media highlighting it…” (07:57)

3. The Subscription Economy as a Pressure Point

• Subscription revenue is critical for large tech firms, making them vulnerable:
  • “Ground zero” companies are hyper-sensitive to small drops in subscription growth (13:00–14:30)
  • “Blast zone” companies symbolize direct complicity but have less economic leverage.
• Personal finance as activism: People are often surprised by how many recurring subscriptions they have and the impact of collectively canceling them. “When I unsubscribe from Amazon Prime, I found out that I was still a member of Amazon One…” (15:59)
• Using AI, Scott estimates the movement’s reach and financial impact: “The average number of platforms people are unsubscribing from is 2 to 3…” (22:17)

4. Moral Complexity & Limitations

• Impossible purity: Both Scott and Kara admit they can’t fully divest from problematic platforms. “I don't have total moral clarity around this. I'm still. I'm not giving up my iPhone.” (15:00)
• The aim is not perfect virtue but meaningful reduction and sending a signal.

5. Building and Sustaining Momentum

• The campaign’s growth: Over half a million unique site visitors and 18 million social views so far.
• The viral ingredient: “I think the only way this sustains, Kara, is if enough people decide to do it themselves and then communicate their actions on social…” (25:47)
• Scott admits to his aversion to organizing with activist groups but acknowledges the need for allies. (26:07–26:47)

6. The Broader Goal: Economic Protest with Minimal Sacrifice

• The movement is framed as an accessible alternative to street protest:
  • “Canceling ChatGPT and going to the free one relative to the impact you’re having on OpenAI... is an enormous ROI relative to the consumer friction there.” (28:03)

7. Endgame and Personal Responsibility

• Scott’s long-term vision: Curtail expansion of state power, notably ICE, via business pressure. Short term: “I want tens of millions of Americans to think, what can I do? …Or I can take just $10,000 out of the market cap of OpenAI in about 20 seconds.” (28:37–29:48)
• On public criticism: Both left and right ‘rage-bait’ media tactics are denounced.
• Scott’s view on big tech CEOs and business leaders: Despite respect, he decries their lack of courage and moral leadership. “I want credit for being a leader without actually being a leader, is how I would describe Tim Cook.” (10:48)
• The wealthy have fewer excuses not to act: “That's the whole point of wealth… to give you more opportunities to be a good person.” (34:14–36:17)

8. On Action, Anxiety and Agency

• Scott’s core motivational advice:
  • “Action absorbs anxiety.” (41:45)
  • “The difference between you and action and greatness and relevance is your fear of public failure… The risk of public failure is a curb that's 2 inches tall. It doesn't matter. We're all going to be dead soon.” (44:04)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Scott, on the power of economic protest:
  “If we can slow the rates of growth of subscriptions to big tech, you are going to see a massive hit to their market capitalization.” (05:19)
• On the dilemma of personal sacrifice:
  “I'm not giving up my iPhone.” (15:00),
  “I'm not willing to move to Ted Kaczynski's old shed in the forest and have a ham radio.” (20:39)
• On activism and organizing:
  “At my age, I don't want to get on the phone with a bunch of people in Birkenstocks arguing over which company should be on the list or not.” (26:07)
• On action and anxiety:
  “Action absorbs anxiety… If you're as upset as I am about what is going on… it feels really good to do something.” (41:45–43:10)
• On wealth and obligation:
  “Ideally in a capitalist society, it gives you fewer excuses to not be a good person and gives you more opportunities.” (36:14)
• On collective power:
  “Wars are fought one battle at a time… if you have 10,000 cuts, you have an impact.” (23:10)

---

Important Section Timestamps

• Scott explains “Resist and Unsubscribe” and its origins: 04:36–08:10
• Historical context and protest impact: 07:15–08:10
• Subscription math and market cap impact: 13:00–15:14, 22:17–23:41
• Debate over personal divestment and moral purity: 15:00–16:43
• Family, personal impact, and real-life examples: 20:08–21:13
• Describing momentum, viral spread, and media’s role: 24:48–25:47
• Scott’s reluctance toward activist group organizing: 26:07–26:47
• Motivational advice—action versus anxiety: 41:45–44:21
• Reflections on business leaders, wealth, and responsibility: 34:14–36:17

---

Takeaways for Listeners

• Resist and Unsubscribe offers a direct, scalable way for individuals to protest the political influence of big tech and corporate America with real-world consequences.
• Even small economic actions, amplified collectively and communicated socially, ripple up to boardrooms and potentially to the White House.
• The campaign is accessible: unsubscribing from a few unnecessary or objectionable services can be both a protest and money-saver.
• Moral purity is impossible; the objective is progress, not perfection.
• Action—however incremental—redresses feelings of helplessness and can inspire others.
• Sustaining the momentum requires allyship, virality, and people sharing their choices publicly.

---

For more, visit resistantunsubscribe.com and decide what actions might make sense for you.

Transcript

[A]

I want you to go to jail next. You need to Don Lemon this shit. That's what you need to do.

[B]

Oh, that would take our subscribers way up. We need to get arrested.

[A]

Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Scott Galloway. You know who Scott is. He's the professor of marketing at NYU Stern School of Business, the founder of Multiple firms, including L2, Red Envelope and Profit, and a bestselling author many times over, and, of course, my co host on Pivot, and my longtime work husband. Scott has recently started a movement which he began talking about on Pivot called Resist and Unsubscribe. The idea is to pressure CEOs who are either kowtowing to Trump or working with ICE by unsubscribing from their products and services. He's got a website called resistantunsubscribe.com it's full of information on which companies to unsubscribe from for maximum impact. And it's really started to gain traction. The original plan was to get people to unsubscribe for the month of February, but as you'll hear, it might be getting extended. I talk to Scott all the time, but I wanted to bring him on the podcast because this Resist and Unsubscribe idea is really important. When I initially heard it, I thought, oh, okay, it's an interesting idea. Now I actually think it's a great idea, because working with a lot of people to impact companies has more impact than you think. And of course, it hits Trump where he hurts, which is in the wallet. His big, fat, corrupt wallet. And it's important to send a message to companies, a lot of tech companies, that you don't like what they're doing, and you have choices, and it gives you a just a tiny bit more power. You should absolutely protest. You should absolutely write to your Congress people. You should absolutely show up at hearings, and you should absolutely vote. But this is another way to show your displeasure by denying them your business. It's really important, so stick around. Well, the holidays have come and gone once again. But if you've forgotten to get that.

[B]

Special someone in your life a gift.

[A]

Well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now.

[B]

You call it an early present for next year. What do you have to lose?

[A]

Give it a [e-mail] switch limited time.

[C]

50% off regular price for new customers upfront payment required. $45 for three months, $90 for six month or $180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy. See terms.

[A]

What does it really mean to be a neighbor?

[C]

It's just everyday people, you know, it's just people who are retired. They have a couple hours in the afternoon, so they're gonna do patrols. And it's people who are, you know, real estate agents, you know, driving around like, trying to track how ice is moving and alert neighbors when things are not safe. The rise of mutual aid in times of crisis.

[A]

That's this week on Explain it to Me. New episodes Sundays.

[C]

Wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Hi, this is Bella Freud. I'm the host of Fashion Neurosis. This week on the show, Esther Perel is on my couch. Erotic recovery is part of trauma healing. God, that's interesting. It's not the reward at the end. Yeah. That's the difference. And I think we both come together around that construct. Yeah. Find fashion neurosis on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

It is on.

[A]

Well, Scott Galloway, thank you for coming on on.

[B]

I just have one question. Am I on with Kara Swisher right now? Am I on with the inimitable tech journalist? Live forever. Piss off. All the tech bros in the world is literally giving up billions of dollars in personal wealth because she is such an enormous pain in the ass. Am I on with that carousel?

[A]

You are on.

[B]

I'm thrilled to be here. It's a big honor.

[A]

Okay, well, here's the thing. We have like beefs with the Patek Bros and beefs with tech companies and stuff like that. But one thing you've started lately is this. Resist and unsubscribe. And a lot of onlisters may not know about it, so we want to get them to know about it. I want you to explain what resist and unsubscribe and how does it work and how'd you come up with it? You started talking about it on Pivot. Really? But how did you decide to go full bore into a resistance movement?

[B]

Well, I say this a lot. I've struggled my entire career with the difference between being right and being effective. And I think protests and a lot of podcasters and journalists talking about the injustice and the slow burn to fascism. That's all meaningful, but I think they're missing a profound weapon. And that is the greatest government action in history was six years ago when on a dime, the government decided to inject Trillions of dollars into the economy, new laws passed, new guidelines. And it wasn't because tens of thousands of people were dying. It was because GDP crashed 31%.

[A]

Right. So it was a reaction to what had happened during COVID but it was.

[B]

A reaction to the economy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then if you look at most recently, when does the President actually check back on plans to annex Greenland or on tariffs when the S and P or the bond market dive? And then I thought, well, okay, if that's the goal, what's the string that you can pull on? What's the soft tissue? And it's the following T Mobile was supposed to sign up 992,000 new subscribers. They announced 962 and their stock was off $12 billion in the after hours. So if we can slow the rates of growth of subscriptions to big tech, you are going to see a massive hit to their market capitalization. And then the individuals who will notice this, the CEOs, they are the ones that have the President's ear that he's constantly prostrating or using as his kind of chew toy, I don't know, show ponies. Yeah. Chew toys.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And these 10 companies make up 40% of the S and P. So while I applaud and I think protest is really important, journalism is really important, the courts, what I think we're missing, and the objective is to educate people that the weapon hiding in plain sight is just to decide, maybe I only need two streaming media platforms, not six. Maybe I don't need the paid version of ChatGPT. I'll go with the free version.

[A]

Right. Or use one that has better values, for example. That's not a new thing. The idea of boycotts. Right. I remember, I mean, I go way back to Anita Bryant and orange juice and gay bars and things like that, which was super effective. Obviously the Kimmel one, even though Disney says that wasn't the reason was effective in terms of everything. So you're trying to reach the CEOs who reach Trump. Correct?

[B]

I'm trying to reach the markets who will then reach the CEOs who will then reach Trump. Look, this is. Let me go. I've been learning a lot about protests recently. Right.

[A]

You've been studying them, Right. Like what's effective and what's not.

[B]

And there are studies on it. So the most, probably the most famous is the Montgomery bus strike. Sure. And what people remember was this incredibly courageous woman who refused to give up her seat. That was the cinematic part of it. Right. And it wasn't until 11 months later that they decided to get rid of segregation on municipal bus lines. The economic protests that work are sustained building, and they're economic. Fast forward to 2025, Kimmel and Disney. The unsubscribes at Disney were actually plummeting when they decided to put Kimmel back on the air. But Traditional began picking up the story and shaming them.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

So it's, it's a function of. It needs to be a sustained build. It does need to be economic. And it's also about media highlighting it to the employees internally and the risk of economic damage.

[A]

So why then for only one month? I mean, you were saying the Montgomery bus thing was a year and it took a while before it sinks in. Why a month versus like February?

[B]

That's the correct question. So I find the research I've done is that day long. Economic strikes are an annoyance. But don't move the needle.

[A]

Like don't work today.

[B]

They just don't work. Like, don't go in Friday. No work Friday. It's fun. It gets reality online. It doesn't do anything. You might be right. And what I might do is if the momentum keeps building, I might leave the side up past February. Because what I'm seeing online now is we were talking about this last night. I got very little momentum out of the gates. Very few people and you and a handful of other people said this is important. But now that it's got some momentum and I've been on every, every channel, a cable news program in the world, all of a sudden people are finding their backbone and saying, this is a good idea. If it keeps building momentum, I'll keep the side up and I'll start maybe adding companies, taking companies off and updating. I'm trying to be really transparent around side analytics. What works, what doesn't. I mean, so far I use AI to evaluate my progress. So far, its summary has been product management teams at Big Tech are talking about this, but it's not yet a conversation in the boardroom. You still have some wood to chop.

[A]

Here, but you heard from CEOs.

[B]

Yeah, I have heard.

[A]

I've heard from CEOs. Yeah.

[B]

And they all say the same thing. Scott, really respect what you're doing here. I trust you understand as a former board member and shareholder, how difficult it is to go first. But we just wanted to reach out and tell you that I agree with a lot of, you know, they're so nice and they're so charming. Right.

[A]

And they agree with you. But they still are going to do.

[B]

Business well, they say they're going to. My boss agreeing with me on this phone call or via text message doesn't do anybody any good.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It makes me feel good. But, you know, it's never, it's never the wrong time to do the right thing. And what I try to do is these are all men who are going to be dead soon. I try to play to their sense of mortality and their emotions. I mean, I had this conversation with the head of a very large streaming network on Saturday morning. I'm like, boss, we're on the back nine. We're going to be dead soon. Time is going fast. When the kids are around you and you know that you're going to look into their eyes for the last time. Do you want to be the guy that got shareholder value up 10, 20% or the guy who took a stand that cost something? Like what? What do you want at the end?

[A]

Well, they also argue that they, they. They're there for shareholders. You see the prostrations that Tim Cook makes for Trump, for example, someone unlikely to do so, and then behind the scenes to his employees says, I'm all for immigration. Right?

[B]

Yeah. I want credit for being a leader without actually being a leader, is how I would describe Tim Cook. And let me, Let me go there.

[A]

This is the Apple head.

[B]

For people who don't know, I think competition, open markets, especially for a guy like Tim Cook, civil rights have played a really important role in that company's success and his personal success.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And for him not to nod back to those things and be willing to take a stand, I find gross. And what I do empathize with is none of them. It's very difficult for any of them to make the first move because a good autocrat rewards his allies with insider trading information and sweetheart deals and avoidance of Chinese tariffs or whatever you want, and punishes severely the person who moves first. So actually, a really key player in this, I believe, and why I had him on my podcast yesterday, is a guy like Jeffrey Sonnenfeld.

[A]

That's what I was going to ask about Jeffrey, because Jeffrey does lists. He did it around Russia and Ukraine.

[B]

So for those of you who don't know, Jeffrey is a professor of leadership at Yale, and he literally gets the CEO of AT&T and Anthropic in the same room. He gets all of them. They said, jeff, what needs to happen here is that 1050, 100 of the Fortune 500 need to collectively say something such that the President can't punish any one of them. He'd have to go after all of them, but just to circle back. Let me go to the micro here. Chelsea Handler called me and said, are you taking your money out of Goldman and putting it in a Canadian bank account and going from dollars to Canadian dollars?

[A]

We talked about that on the show.

[B]

And she asked really thoughtful questions. And I said, I struggle with this, but I think I'm gonna go to a US regional bank and keep my money in dollars. Cause I don't wanna hurt America. I wanna send a message to Americans about the weapons they have. And I want Big Tech to feel this pain that there's some economic downside, not just upside, to supporting ice.

[A]

So I'll get to that issue in a minute. The tech companies, stock price drops and the CEOs, then talk to Trump. But how do you decide? You've broken down corporations on the unsubscribed list to two categories, ground zero and blast zone. Talk about the distinctions.

[B]

So ground zero is companies that, if you can take their subscription growth from, you know, 8% month on month to 7.5%, Sam Altman isn't going to get his round done at $850 billion. It's the tail of the whip. It's the, you know, it's the ignition, the small spark that ignites, you know, a nuclear detonation. Those companies are so sensitive to subscription growth and they have such massive market capitalizations that when Microsoft's Cloud growth is 37% versus 38, it loses 10% of its value. And then the entire NASDAQ 100 declines 1 1/2% in one day. So ground zero is where there might be a small spark, might create a massive detonation. The blast zone is companies like AT&T that are openly working with ICE. Quite frankly, it's an important philosophical signal to say, I don't want to work with companies directly working with them. But quite frankly, AT&T is somewhat meaningless in terms of market cap. And let me give you an example. If you were to say to people, no economic activity. Stop buying groceries, Just plant a garden and don't shop. Kroger's is a public company. I don't think the CEO, quite frankly, has the president's ear, but he is the CEO of a very big company. Kroger's trades at 0.3 times revenues. If you cancel your OpenAI ChatGPT paid subscription and just use the free one, which as far as I can tell, is pretty much the same, and I'm all over AI right now, they lose $240 in a company that's being valued at 40 times revenues or $10,000.

[A]

Right. So you're making it easy for people to do that. And these are things that they can do and send a message at the same time. Were there ones that you considered and then left off because everybody has some hair on them. Right. That's the issue is there's not a company that doesn't have some link to the government, that doesn't have some deal they did with the Defense Department or whatever. Companies can't stay totally clean in that regard, which I think is the problem with some of it, is there's no maybe Patagonia. I guess there's very few like that.

[B]

Yeah. I don't have total moral clarity around this. I'm still. I'm not giving up my iPhone.

[A]

Right. That's what I mean.

[B]

Someone correctly asked me, my. One of my co hosts for another podcast I do, said, are you selling your Apple stock? I'm like, fuck. And I've started selling down my Apple stock.

[A]

I did that.

[B]

I'm not sure I'll give you another one. I'm not sure if Netflix should be on the list because I think of them as being politically neutral, doing their best just to be good actors. I really like the CEOs there, but I'm like, okay, it's a $300 billion market cap company. The CEO decides to get on a plane and go meet with the president, hat in hand, because the Ellisons are there as well. And there's all sorts of wrong about the president getting involved in a socialist cronyist movement, but I want to. I struggle with who's on the list and who isn't. I struggle with how far I should go. I struggle with one thing I'm trying not to do. I don't want to be the arbiter of what people should unsubscribe or subscribe to.

[A]

You want to give them information, okay. This is what they do.

[B]

If you're rattled, as I was, by the Secretary of Homeland Security calling an ICU nurse serving veterans a domestic terrorist and you want to do something, what I'm saying is you're going to be shocked if you go to resistant unsub.com how much money you are spending on these platforms that you didn't even know. And the examples I use are the following. When I unsubscribe from Amazon Prime, I found out that I was still a member of Amazon One, their healthcare service that I signed up for in 2020 to get a prescription of Paxlovid. When I unsubscribed from AT and T to go to Noble Mobile, I found out I didn't have one. I had four AT&T accounts and three of them were for iPads and blackberries that have been in a landfill for a decade.

[A]

I found that out recently.

[B]

Yeah, and they kept charging me 60 or 70 bucks and they know damn well there's never been a ping from that. But they continue to auto renew. I have no joke, spent four to six thousand dollars on automatically renewing subscription. I found out that and this is a story of Privilege, I'm taking 370 Ubers a year and because Uber has consolidated the market, they have increased the prices 7 to 10% a year. The price of Ubers or Uber Lux, which is what I take, has doubled in the last six years. So similar to dry January where you might decide to come out of it and recalibrate your alcohol intake up or down, Mostly down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is an Easy way to 1. Save some money and send an out.

[A]

Figure out where you're subscribed and what you need. We'll be back in a minute.

[C]

Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond. Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month [e-mail] specialoffer last month, Nora Mabey, a reporter in Montana, was looking around on Facebook for story ideas.

[A]

In Montana, particularly in rural areas, Facebook is where a lot of news is shared.

[C]

And a post from the local sheriff caught her eye. He said that Border Patrol agents had rocked up outside of business in the very small town of Freud, Montana to take someone in and that he, the sheriff, was trying to assist them. But then at the end of his post he added this it's important to.

[A]

Note that this man was not a threat, not a danger to his community, has no criminal history, and has been a great member of this community, which I just haven't seen a statement like that from law enforcement, particularly in a really, you know, conservative area that typically.

[C]

Has a lot of support for all.

[A]

Types of law enforcement, Border Patrol included.

[C]

Coming up on Today explained the story of Freud, Montana, a town where most people voted for President Trump, and how residents reacted when reality hit home. Today Explained Drops every weekday. Megan Rapinoe here. This week on A Touch More, the one and only Flaje Johnson joins us to talk about leveling up for the wnba, managing nil money, and how she's nurturing her music career. We're also taking a closer look at why participation in girls sports is declining. Surprising, we know. And we're giving some love to Valentine's Day and what it's like dating a pro athlete and who's the best athlete.

[A]

Couple of all time.

[C]

Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

[A]

So talk about how it's affect you personally. You got rid of Uber 1, Netflix. Correct. Amazon Prime. And are your kids bugging you to restart an Xbox subscription? Because I've got to have a discussion with Louis tonight about Apple Music, which I want to get off. I've gotten off almost all the Apple things except for my storage, which I have to figure something out.

[B]

Apple music was easy.

[A]

Not for my kids.

[B]

So let me be clear. In terms of the family, they're all down with my movement. They kind of roll their eyes. But fine. Dad's at it again. More of his, like, attention mongering. He's such a whore. That's the kind of. That's what I. That's what their body language says to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they're like, fine, we'll go along with it. But when I told them we were going from six to zero streaming media platforms, I'm not exaggerating. They looked at each other like, all right, smother dad and sleep tonight. And so we've gone down to two and we're about to go down to one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm not asking people some. I'm not willing to move to Ted Kaczynski's old shed in the forest and have a ham radio. I'm keeping my iPhone. I'm going to have one streaming media platform.

[A]

Which one?

[B]

I hate to say it, but it's the big one, you know, Netflix. Well, there you go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we all voted on it as a family and everyone had. I would have kept HBO Max just because I like watching hot men who play hockey fuck each other. But that's just me.

[A]

But you've already done that.

[B]

That's just me.

[A]

Cause you can go back to things. Right? That's your whole point is you can.

[B]

My point is this is your call.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm an economically secure guy living in London. I'm not the arbiter. What I'm trying to give you is Information on you. You have zombies outside that are really upsetting you. Well, guess what? I got a fucking cannon that you is in your house that you didn't even know you had. And I'll go back where I was headed with Chelsea Handler. Chelsea went on instance that these are the following companies I'm unsubscribing from. She listed about a thousand bucks a year in savings. Most of these companies, especially the big tech companies, traded an average of 10 times revenue. So Chelsea unsubscribing cost them 10,000 dol. But I went on AI on both platforms and I said, okay, she'll probably have a quarter of a million to half a million likes. The number of views is in the millions. And I went on my site analytics. I think Chelsea's one social media post about her unsubscribing is going to get between 5 and 7,000 new unique visits to the resistant Unsub site. Today the AI says you're getting about a 4 to 5% conversion to people who actually unsubscribe.

[A]

So explain what conversion is.

[B]

How many people come to the site and either buy your products or actually unsubscribe from a platform. And the average number of platforms people are unsubscribing from is 2 to 3. So anyways, 5% of 7,000 is 350, times 2 is 700 times an average annual subscription. That's $140,000 times 10, that's $1.4 million.

[A]

So it adds up.

[B]

My point is if you woke up and said, I am pissed off and I want to do something a personally, you can probably take a $10,000 bite out of the market cap of these companies. And two, if you have anything resembling a platform, you can take millions of dollars. And wars are fought one battle at a time. They're fought one soldier at a time. We like the idea of a cinematic detonation where overnight, yeah, it's not.

[A]

It's fixed.

[B]

It's, you know, death by a thousand cuts. Well, okay, if you have 10,000 cuts, you have an impact. I'm speaking to the entire senior class at a high school in Michigan who want me to argue why they should all collectively unsubscribe from Spotify. And I can say to them, I'll work them through the math and say, if the entire senior class of this school in Michigan unsubscribes from Spotify, it's going to cost them about $700,000 in market cap. Right. And I just want you aware of the math. And then you make your own decisions, right?

[A]

That you have an impact. Because I think most people feel useless, right? They feel like they're helpless, small. I think you're moving into that. Spotify is not on the list. But you mentioned them right here.

[B]

A lot of people are doing Spotify because it's easy to unsubscribe from because there's so many substitutes around music. And I want to be clear. I'm not sure why Spotify isn't on the list. I'm having a difficult time being the arbiter of who should be on the list and who shouldn't.

[A]

Well, it's your list and then people can make a decision. Or you could have an area where people could suggest. By last week, more than half a million had visited resistantunsubscribe.com, and the campaign has generated over 18 million views across social platforms. So how do you continue to build and sustain that energy? Is it a first step towards mobilizing a mass of people toward prolonged economic strike or street protests? Well, how do you look at that? Because you're talking about taking. You want to take a quarter million out of the market cap of these companies. Quarter billion, Quarter billion, Excuse me. And that's a lot talk about how you sustain that energy. One of the things is media talking to me, talking to Ms. Now or whoever, you know, going on Fox News, et cetera, et cetera.

[B]

Well, so the answer is I don't know. And so right now we're tracking to hit these companies with a notional decrease in their market cap of a quarter of a billion dollars, which across all of them isn't a lot. This is what I've done. I started personally with a bunch of social videos and I put the side up, okay, you know, kind of a tree falling in the forest. I then went on traditional media. I was everywhere. All of a sudden it got some momentum. Monday and Tuesday, the site visit started to decline. We lost some energy. And then yesterday, some fairly. I won't call it famous, but people who have big footprints went on to their social and started talking about it. And it feels like the momentum is increasing again. I can't be on CNN or Fox every day or npr. I was on with Christian Amanpour last night. I'm going on a bunch of pods today that is only sustainable for so long that I think, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts. I think the only way this sustains Cara, is if enough people decide to do it themselves and then communicate their actions on social or create Their own.

[A]

Versions of resist and unsubscribe. Right. And one of the things I told you, you're doing it by yourself, you know, and of course you got. I had a lot of sort of the activist community is like, why doesn't he do it in a group? And I'm like, because he hates long phone calls with lots of people. I don't know what else to say. You moved on your own. Right. But you need others to join at some point. Correct?

[B]

Well, I'm violating one of my dictums, and that is greatness is in the agency of others. You only win great wars with allies. I have a personal failing here, and that is at my age, I don't want to get on the phone with a bunch of people in Birkenstocks arguing over which company should be on the list or not. I just don't have the fucking patience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So this is. I did hear. I went on the Resistance.com podcast. I spoke to the good people yesterday at Indivisible. And to be blunt, Kara, I'm finding that I have as much insight into this as they do at this point.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's not to say I don't want to partner with them. I spoke to a kid today who said, I think I can get a thousand young creators to talk about what they're unsubscribing from.

[A]

Probably more effective.

[B]

Right, Right. I am coming to the grips of the fact that is, you know, as. As infinitely likable and sweet as I come across. I'm going to have to find other allies in this fight, which makes my skin crawl. But anyways, you asked me how this sustains. I need to do a better job of finding coordinated, organized allies. And two, more than anything, I've planted the seeds here. We definitely going to take it looks like now a quarter of a billion dollars out of their market cap. I want to educate Americans as to the power of their economic strength.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But if this is going to sustain, it's got to go, for lack of a better term, it's got to get some virality on social.

[A]

Yeah, right, Exactly. I mean, the theory behind. It's like the ice bucket challenge.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Everybody suddenly has to do it. The theory behind Resistance Scrubs that you want the most impact with the least amount of sacrifice. One of the issues is people don't recognize their wallet has just as much as making a sign has different kind of impact, but has an impact. Right? Correct. Is that this is something that's easy to do and you're not trying to make it easy for people. But it's a thing that is more powerful with less effort. Right. And actually is good for your budget too, by the way.

[B]

I'm trying to figure out the way you can have the biggest impact with the least amount of effort to give up your Saturday and go protest and make signs. That's a real effort and more power to those people, and they're incredibly inspiring. If you decide not to go into work because you're pissed off, that's a real risk. If you decide to go without groceries, that's a huge risk. Canceling ChatGPT and going to the free one relative to the impact you're having on OpenAI right now and the signal you're sending, I think, is an enormous ROI relative to the consumer friction there.

[A]

Do you have an end game or just. Do you want to start a, you know, a fire, essentially?

[B]

Well, my end game is that we don't have a mass secret police terrorizing Americans. You know, my. My end game is we stopped. We find it untenable. Or that the different, quote unquote, co equal branches of government that have effectively become the Duma decide that you are not allowed to take undocumented workers or even some US Citizens and send them to. What is the definition of a concentration camp? And that is a black side. Outside of the overview of the laws and regulations of a nation, I find what's going on here. What's my end game? My end game long term is to have the president check back, as he has with other market movements, on some of what I think are really, really frightening policies. But in the short run, my objective is very simple. I want tens of millions of Americans to think, what can I do? I can protest. I can vote. I can turn on my ring light and be outraged. I can go on and call Pam Bondi, Jan Brady, if she was possessed by Satan, whatever. Or. Or I can. I just made that up. I'm proud of that.

[A]

You know, that was actually a plot point on one of the Brady movies.

[B]

Or. Or if I want to take just $10,000 out of the market cap of OpenAI in about 20 seconds, I can cancel my paid subscription and use the free one.

[A]

One of the things you did was go on people with people who are just angry right wingers, which I don't advise you to do. But one of the things.

[B]

I didn't know that was gonna happen.

[A]

Oh, really? Because that would be their move. You're killing the economy.

[B]

You're talking about Piers Morgan. Piers Morgan typically brings me on and I have a sane, thoughtful debate with like that guy Kevin o'. Leary. And by the way, it was very civil and I thought his audience benefited from it. He invited me on and quite frankly, he ambushed me with one of these young MAGA people I had never heard of before. I don't think I handled it especially well, but I think both of us look worse for it. And I think it's what you object to, Professor. Well, having a mass secret police shooting mothers in the face or denying secret police.

[A]

You're referring to.

[B]

Please stop interrupting me. I let you. I'm just trying to let you prattle. I let you prattle on with your trafe. Let me finish.

[A]

I'm just trying to understand what.

[B]

What your attention. Denying a person. Referring to border secret police denying a person.

[A]

Yeah, well, the idea was you're hurting the economy, Scott Galloway. Like that's. They're going to be their move.

[B]

No, he called it desperate, unpatriotic and you're. You, you liberals can't get over that Trump won fairly, so you're trying to crash the economy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I hope Pierce got another 11 or $12 in AdSense for being such a rage baiting whore. Hi, Pierce. But his audience does not benefit from people just interrupting each other and getting into a food fight, which by the way, the algorithms absolutely love, I'll give you that. But and by the way, the left does it too. Turning into Abby Phillips for her new show called I Feel Stupider where they bring on a right wing guy who says something so vile, so false, and then they have a bunch of C League academics with, with, you know, blue hair, go fucking crazy. It's a formula and it's their most popular show.

[A]

But what? Answer that, answer it in. And like is, is there anything wrong with tanking the economy? Like that's their whole thing. Like I get their stupid argument about patriot is stupid. They're just pulling all your buttons, kind of pushing the buttons of idiocy.

[B]

We're not going to tank the economy. This is what we want. Sam Altman, Tim Cook, Sergey Larry Satya, you know, Sundar. I'll go. You know what? This whole.

[A]

I'm sick of this.

[B]

This whole ignoring ICE is starting to cost us money. It was making us money. We were left out of this tariff nonsense. We might get government backed financing for our chips and infrastructure. We get all sorts of goodies. We might in fact get huge government contracts. It's good for shareholder value. They have to be downside.

[A]

We have to go see the Melania.

[B]

Movie at Some point when they start calling each other and go, you know, people are pissed off. Have you seen all these unsubscribe movements? That's when they're going to find their testicles. That's really going to. They're going to say, you know, collectively, we need to put out a statement saying what's going on here is directly contrary to the great American values that built companies like Amazon, Apple, meta, Google. I doubt Zuckerberg will do it because I'm convinced he is the dark lord. I do think that unless there's going to be an exorcism soon, and that's not going to happen. Yeah, no, but be clear. These guys, if there's enough organic movements where their shares are going to go down, not up, because of their support of ice, right, they will, all of.

[A]

A sudden it sticks with, sticking with their consumers versus anything else. Let me ask you a bigger picture in that regard. There'd be no need for anyone to unsubscribe if the business community wasn't enabling all this in such a really ridiculous way. I can't count how many times one of us or a guest on the podcast has said some version of what's the point of having this money if you're not going to take a stand where it counts? And Tina Brown just said, it turns out having fuck you money means you just want more fuck you money and you don't want to do anything with it. What's the point? So when you watch these business leaders bend the knee, how do you feel about that? Many people are surprised. That's one thing I get from a lot of people.

[B]

I don't get it. I literally, I'm just as I saw. I just had no concept of the depths of the depravity as revealed in the Epstein files. I knew it was bad. I didn't know it was this bad.

[A]

And it's worse because you're not seeing the unredacted. But go ahead.

[B]

I didn't know. I didn't know that the DoJ had been contacted by survivors and what, had no interest in even speaking to them. I mean, it's like, okay, let me get this. And then you release their names, but you redact the co conspirators, alleged co conspirators. So that was shocking to me going to your question. And I'll do some virtue signaling for both of us. We both make really good money. We're both going to be able to send our kids to the best schools. We're both going to have really thoughtful Good looking people taking care of us and wheeling us around when we're older. So I'd like to think it creates, I think wealth can do this. Ideally in a capitalist society. It gives you fewer excuses to not be a good person and gives you more opportunities to be a good person. That's the whole point of money, that's the whole point of wealth is that. And I look at everything now through the lens of masculinity. You want to provide, you want to develop skills and strengths such that you can protect others. And what could afford less protection right now if we don't have the most powerful men in America deciding that I need to protect. When a mother of two is shot in the face three times, when an ICU nurse who is taking care of veterans is shot 10 times, and in about 15 seconds, his First, Second, Fourth and Tenth Amendment rights are violated. Those are the very principles that gave us the gulf streams, gave us civil liberties, gave us unbelievable companies, gave us access to power. And it would be short sighted and just a total lack of gratitude and recognition of the people who, whether at Normandy beach or people who were protesting the civil rights, all of these people paid such huge sacrifices to give me my gulf stream. And the fact that I can live with another man or the fact that I could, I could immigrate here from India without being worried about my family being rounded up.

[A]

It's, it's. What's the point of having it?

[B]

That.

[A]

That is exactly right.

[B]

It's fucking gross. Time is valuable. That's why Lowe's blueprint takeoffs turn blueprints into quotes faster. Bring us your plans and we'll generate itemized material lists to make quoting easier so you can get back to Building Plus. At the Lowe's pro desk, you get access to thousands of building materials not sold in store. And when your order's ready, we'll deliver everything to the job site. Improving is easy at Lowe's.

[C]

This week on net worth and Chill, we're joined by Victoria Garrick Brown, former Division 1 athlete turned body positivity advocate and entrepreneur who's dismantling the lies we've been sold about our work. From battling eating disorders as a student athlete to building a platform that's reached millions. Victoria's journey as a masterclass in turning personal pain into purpose and profit. She opens up about the real financial cost of chasing beauty standards, why the skinny girl industrial complex is designed to keep us broke and insecure, and how she's built a business around authentic self worth without selling out her values. We Dive deep into the economics of body image, the influencer money game, and what it actually costs to love yourself in a world that profits from your insecurities. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF Let me read.

[A]

A quote for you. Audre Lorde, the writer, activist and feminist, famously said, the master's tool will never dismantle the master's house. On the other hand, we've heard the saying that's attributed to Lenin, probably incorrectly. The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them. Who's right there? We're trying to use technology to organize this movement and I think that's fine. Personally, why not use their rope to hang them?

[B]

I'm using Instagram and people have called me out for it and I said, look, I have a home in Florida and I. And the electricity we get is from a coal fired plant. I'm hugely against coal, but I still turn on my lights. I want to be clear that one of the downsides of a concentration of power is that they extort or exact greater rents. And one of the greater rents they exact is that you don't have much choice. I understand when people say, I can give up search right now, I get it. So I personally am quite optimistic that if you look back, we like to always think that we're sub as humans. We think we're subject to something totally unique, when the reality is you don't have to go very far back in history to find times that were the same or worse. If you look at America, the notion that this is this dark time we'll never recover from is just not accurate. We were purposely under a wonderful president who's now considered a hero, incarcerating Japanese families solely because of their identity, many of whom had kids fighting for us in the European theater.

[A]

He signed it. He signed it.

[B]

So the notion somehow that we haven't been in very dark places, but what has typically happened is we get it right over the medium and long term almost better than anybody else. We make a lot of big mistakes in the short term, but our democracy has rebounded and shown real tensile strength and has come back, I would argue, even stronger. And that's what I'm hoping this is. I see a lot of movement. I see a lot of. Look at the popularity. The President. It is plummeting right now.

[A]

Plummeting, plummeting.

[B]

So I'm hopeful.

[A]

Yeah, so you already brought this up, but let me get some final clarity. I've asked you this on pivot if you had divested from these companies, you said, I think I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to walk the walk here. It's a big step. It's like another step.

[B]

Right.

[A]

As you said, nobody can extricate themselves perfectly from the capitalist system to be completely pure. So people shouldn't, I don't think they should dwell on that. I think you should do your best. That's my feeling. And, but you know, there are those who think you have to extricate yourself completely.

[B]

Yeah, look, like I said, I'm not giving up my iPhone. But as someone who is asking other people to do this, as someone who is, you know, the catalyst for this little movement, I have an obligation to lead by example and be a little bit more out front than other people. So I am selling down my Apple stock. I'm going. Goldman Sachs manages my money. I really like David Solomon. I really like Jamie Dimon. I'm disappointed that those types of leaders who do have the President's ear have not been more vocal. So I'm going to transfer my money out of Goldman and my assets to a regional bank. You know, everybody has to make up their own mind about how aggressive they want to be. All I'm trying to do is one, raise awareness of the power of this and two, make it easy for them to unsubscribe from some of the more obvious players.

[A]

Yeah. So what if, what if this snowballs and it turns out you're the hero we didn't know we needed? Are you prepared to come in the face of the anti Trump economic resistance?

[B]

Yeah, I think you're being generous.

[A]

I don't, I don't think I'm, I am being generous. I'm just teasing.

[B]

I think the last. I don't know if I think Amazon has recognized or profiled me and when I go to their site is serving is recommending erectile dysfunction socks. So I don't know if it sees me as the leader we need right now. Kara.

[A]

So last question. What do you tell people who feel hopeless or overwhelmed? Because that's one of the things. And when people ask me, I'm like, it's just something like you, you know, just don't overthink it. Right. People who want to take part but only unsubscribe from a few services who don't know where to begin. What's your message? Give your final inspirational speech.

[B]

Well, this isn't inspirational. I coach a lot of young men. I had a young man call me a few weeks ago and say I had sex and I, I'm. I have symptoms of something. And he was freaking out and really upset. And I said, okay, this wasn't one.

[A]

Of my kids, right? No kidding.

[B]

No, I'm sorry, that, that was last year. That was 2024. And I said, look, that. The lesson I wish I had learned earlier in life is that action absorbs anxiety. I want you right now to go online, I want you to set up an appointment and you're going to go in and find out if and what is going on with you. And we did it online together and the next day called me, good news, you know. But he immediately felt better. Action absorbs anxiety. And if you're as upset as I am about what is going on, and for the first time in my life, I have had trouble disassociating from what's going on. It has created anxiety and anger and it takes me away from my family, it takes me away from my, my health, it takes me away from my mental wellness. Then what I would tell you is it feels really good to do something. Paint a sign and go to a protest. Call your congressperson, speak to friends, start thinking about organizing and getting people registered to vote. Give a little bit of money to a candidate who you think is showing courage around this. It feels really good to do things with other people. It makes you feel American. It makes you feel strong. And like I said, how do you want to be remembered? As the person barking at the moon and angry or the person who actually fucking digs something? And the other thing that I'm trying to do personally is the reason I have had such a wonderful life. I have the economic security, I have the friends I have that I get to hang out with someone much higher character, much hotter than me, is. I have never been afraid of public failure. The difference between you and action and greatness and relevance is your fear of public failure. That's why people don't start businesses. That's why people don't reach out and express romantic interest to people hotter than them. That's why people don't write op EDS that are. That are potentially dangerous to them professionally. And what I can tell you is the risk of public failure is a curb that's 2 inches tall. It doesn't matter. We're all going to be dead soon. If you want to start a website, if you want to tell your group that you are unsubscribing and this is why, say I threw this party and no one showed up and it was laughable, and there's that angry professor? And what a stupid movement. It didn't work. You know what? They're gonna be dead soon, and so am I. The difference between you and greatness and relevance is overcoming your fear of public failure.

[A]

Yep. That's it. That's all you have to do. Scott. The hero we didn't know we needed. Yeah, right, Scott.

[B]

Gallery, erectile dysfunction, socks. And let me just say, they're not helping. Kara. A lot of people. A lot of people shitpost you. I know this firsthand. You are a very loyal friend. Who was first on this bandwagon? Swisher. Cara Swisher. All my good friends now. Now that I've had a little bit of success and momentum, they're not all of a sudden, now they're like, I'm with you, brother. I'm like, yeah. Where the were you 10 days ago when no one was RSVPing to my party?

[A]

Yeah. I like all your schemes, Scott. Any scheme you want to do, I'm there for it. I'm there for all your schemes. It's a good scheme.

[B]

I appreciate it.

[A]

At first I was like, huh? Only because you were insulting protesters. And I'm like, don't insult that too. It's like a two. It's a. You know, like when you do whatever, it's additive. Like, it's a thing you can do. And I think people feel good about it. And actually it is effective. It is. I have myself. I unsubscribed at least several thousand dollars. It's really something a year. It's really crazy. And again, it was like that. I didn't have as many streaming services as you, but. And it's good to have discussions. One of the things I will say, like, you talk to your kids with my kids about it. Like, you know, what are you willing to give up for? And let me just say the last thing, and I think Scott agrees with this. It doesn't have to be forever. It's for now, right?

[B]

Go back, subscribe. It's really easy to sign up. They make it really easy to sign back up. You'll even get a better deal if you cancel from AT&T. They'll try and tempt you back with a better deal.

[A]

If they do something good, reward them by signing up again. Say, I really appreciated that, and do it on the other side. So, Scott, thank you so much. Again, resist and unsubscribe. What's the site say? The site's name.

[B]

So people. Www. Resist and unsub or resistant. Unsubscrib. Or Unsubscribe. February.

[A]

Up to you, up to you. Scott Gallery, you're the best. Thank you so much.

[B]

No, you are.

[A]

No, you are.

[B]

You are. You are.

[A]

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Wisel, Michelle Aloy, Megan Birney, and Caitlin Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Madeline laplante Dubi. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, resist and Unsubscribe is going to grow exponentially. If not, it will anyway. Get on board. Use your wallet to make a statement. Go wherever you listen to podcasts. Search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.