← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
Now you're still off the record. So you just have to say, now I'm on the record.
- [00:03]
Amy Klobuchar
Oh, now I'm on the record because.
- [00:05]
Kara Swisher
We'Re classy folks that way. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Minnesota Senator Amy Klobuchar. Senator Klobuchar was reelected in November for her fourth term in office. So she's been on the Hill for 18 years and is currently the third highest ranking Democratic senator. Throughout the years, I've interviewed her a number of times because she's been a leading voice on tech regulation and antitrust legislation, even if she hasn't always been successful. In fact, I always give her a hard time over it. She says she's going to pass something, I says she's not. They don't pass it. And she says she's going to do it again. But she likes to say she plays the long game with these things. It is a very long game. Amy, you and I both know that I really enjoy our back and forths. And I do think most of her legislation is critically important. And I do wish her success in the future, even if I think the tech people will continue to stymie her. When I spoke with her last for pivot back in August, it was during the Democratic National Convention. She was very hopeful and positive about the election. This week she was one of the team to certify the Electoral College votes which will put President elect Trump back in office in less than two weeks. So I'm interested to talk to her about what a Republican Republican trifecta plus a Trump heavy Supreme Court mean for her and the Democratic Party at least in the next two years. I want to get her take on the Trump nominations in the fcc, FTC and the Justice Department, all areas she deals with directly as a member of the Senate Commerce and Judiciary Committees. And I want to hear what she thinks about big tech influence, obviously in Washington, which has gotten stronger than ever, and how it could continue to hurt her efforts. Amy, I'm still hoping for you, but we'll see. Our expert question today comes from former Assistant Attorney General Jonathan Kanter. Stick around. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Intuit. Are you marketing to small businesses? With Intuit SMB Media Labs, you can connect to millions of small businesses across new and established channels like Social Programmatic and ctv. With first party small business audiences, target by industry size, maturity, location and more and connect with the companies that need you most. Do more with tailored Insights from Intuit, SMB Media Labs. Learn more@medialabs.in Support for the show comes from NerdWallet. When it comes to finding the best financial products, have you ever wished that someone would do the heavy lifting for you, take all that research off your plate? Well, with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, that wish has finally come true. The nerds at NerdWallet have reviewed more than 1100 financial products like credit cards, saving accounts and more to highlight and bring you only the best of the best. Check out the 2025 Best of Awards today@nerdwallet.com awards.
- [03:19]
Amy Klobuchar
It is on.
- [03:22]
Kara Swisher
Senator Klobuchar, welcome back and thanks for taking time to be on on. I've wanted to talk, but I know it's been a busy couple of weeks for you. Last week you were sworn in for your fourth Senate term. Congratulations on that.
- [03:33]
Amy Klobuchar
Thank you.
- [03:34]
Kara Swisher
Any resolutions for the next six years? What's your job?
- [03:39]
Amy Klobuchar
Well, we took an oath that gave me my resolution. And that oath is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And I think we're gonna need to consult that oath and that Constitution many times over the next few years. And it's, I think it's not going to be an easy day to day world, certainly not for the people of America. But for someone like me who actually works across the aisle and will continue to do that, I believe you gotta stand your ground and find common ground. So I kind of feel like every day you'll be figuring out where is the red line? You know, is this a battle we can win? Is this a battle worth making even if we can't win? But also, is there an opportunity to find common ground and figuring out where that red line is? You know, people can say it's easy. Oh, I know exactly what I'm going to do every day. It's just going to depend on what they do and how far they go. Clearly for me, you know, a bunch of tax cuts for the wealthy and making it hard for regular people, that's a red line for me. I'm not going to support that. Whether it is things on consolidation, I'm going to be very strong on that. As you know, there's a few voices and I'm one of them that speak out when it comes to that. I think there'll be issues of making sure that we have nominees that are qualified, if they know what they're doing, if they believe in the mission of the work of that agency, and if they have integrity with the FBI check and the like, you know, I'll support them even if they weren't my first choice. I think I supported half of the nominees in the first Trump Cabinet right at the beginning. Then it got a little weirder with some of the people they're putting up. But clearly there's concerns with that right now. So we have our work cut out for us. But for me, the North Star is just, you know, does this help people and improving people's lives? And if it greatly hurts people, I'm going to call them out on it and hold them accountable.
- [05:39]
Kara Swisher
So that line seems to be moving rather quickly in a direction that's somewhat retrograde to a lot of people, but we'll get to that in a second. But last time we spoke in a quick 10 minute speed date on pivot during the Democratic National Convention, you were optimistic about Vice President President Kamala Harris's chances. But this past Monday, January 6, as outgoing chair of the Senate Rules Committee, you led a procession of senators, the House Chamber, and helped count the Electoral College votes, putting president like Donald Trump back in office. Talk about what that was like for you.
- [06:07]
Amy Klobuchar
You know, I had a job and that job was the peaceful transfer of power. And again for Kamala Harris, I thought she was incredibly dignified, stood there so strong. I can't imagine what it was like for her to read those states and those numbers. But she did it and she did it with integrity. That being said, it was a tough election from my perspective. I won my election. I won by 16 points. I got to all 87 counties. I think I beat the ticket, the national ticket, by 11 points. And a lot of that was because of getting out to rural areas. But that's not enough. A number of my friends that for me were just moral compasses lost, from Sherrod Brown to John Tester to Bob Casey. And we're gonna miss them. So when I look back at the election, I see it as a change election. That's how people saw it. It was an economic election. Yes, People wanted their rights protected. And in 2022, that came out strong in the likes of protecting democracy and abortion. That's still there, believe me. But I think a lot of them, when you look back at this election, they said, well, you know, I don't know that Donald Trump is really gonna get rid of all abortions. And I'm really worried about pharmaceutical prices, even though President Biden had actually the first president to get something done on that front or there isn't Affordable housing in my area. It was an economic election, but I think it would be a mistake to rule out the fact that people still care about our democracy. They still care about their rights. It's just that it is on us in the next few years to make the case that we can do things that would improve people's lives. Because that certainly didn't get through.
- [07:48]
Kara Swisher
That didn't get through. So obviously it went off without a hitch this time. As opposed to four years ago when Trump supporters raided the Capitol to try to stop President Biden's certification. You've played a critical role in improving security for the process. I'm guessing there were no MAGA threats, but we've seen a spate of attacks recently. The Tesla truck explosion outside the Trump Hotel in Las Vegas, for example. The attack in New Orleans. What were the concerns or warnings this time? What kind of measures are now in place to prevent or at least minimize the risk of such a repeat?
- [08:16]
Amy Klobuchar
Major changes on that front. First of all, I will never forget that day. 75% of the officers didn't have access to riot gear. In many cases, the insurrectionists had better gear than the officers. The haunting words of one officer on the phone where he said on the police radio, does anyone have a plan? Does anyone have a plan? It took four hours to just call in the National Guard. Four hours. So what did we do? Fired the police chief and a lot of the other people that were in charge that day. So there was much stronger leadership and more accountability. We've had the same new police chief since that year. Secondly, we have in place a number of measures that were changed. 103 recommendations from the inspector general to the new Capitol Police chief. All of them have been implemented in one way or another. You can now call in the police. I know this sounds crazy, but the police chief can now call in the National Guard with one call. Doesn't have to go through a phone tree. I literally had to pass a piece of legislation to make that happen. Architect of the Capitol. Funny name, but oversees almost all these other employees, thousands of employees. We can now hire that person. We just hired a new person and we can terminate a person. It's not the president. It's members of Congress that have to agree on that. I also let and pass that bill. So we have done a number of things to put accountability back in our shop and to make clear that security prevails. Hundreds of new officers have been added and morale is way up. And you could feel that at the Capitol as it was a national security event. Yesterday, so.
- [09:56]
Kara Swisher
But President Trump has pledged to pardon some or all of the January 6th defendants. I just did an interview with Maggie Haberman. She thought he'd just do some of them. It's not clear. Oh, interesting. What are your thoughts on that? Is there any way for Democrats to push back?
- [10:12]
Amy Klobuchar
Yeah, you push back in that people died, in that officers were severely injured, in that this was an assault on the citadel of our democracy and clear crimes were committed and it was an assault on police officers. And I know that the President Elect likes to talk about his friendships with police officers. Well, this was an assault on law enforcement, the rule of law and police officers. So it is my hope that at the very least, he's gonna look at these on occas, case by case basis. I'm not a big fan of across the board pardons. I didn't agree with some of the pardons President Biden just made. Agreed with some of them, but certainly not all of them. Not the one involving his son, and not a number of them, including the judge in Pennsylvania. But if President Elect Trump is going to pardon these insurrectionists across the board, that's just outrageous. Some of them were very violent and committed serious crimes.
- [11:11]
Kara Swisher
He's obviously on their side and not the police's, this particular police force. But as chair of the Joint Commercial Committee for Inaugural Ceremonies, you're also responsible for Trump's upcoming inauguration. What are your concerns and what are you preparing for?
- [11:25]
Amy Klobuchar
Well, again, this is going to be the peaceful transfer of power, and it's going to be hard for a lot of people who, like myself, supported Vice President Harris. But in the end, no matter who wins an election, there are those of us involved that have to say, okay, this is a democracy. And that is a very reason why you saw George Bush, for instance, on the platform when Joe Biden won. It is why you have seen a number of Democratic presidents, former presidents, on the platforms when Republicans have won. And I'm sure you'll see the same thing at this upcoming inauguration. So this is all about that peaceful transfer of power. And so what do I expect? First of all, again, given the heightened security, given the attempt on the President elect's life in the past, and what we've seen from New Orleans to Las Vegas, there is obviously going to be heightened security. We certainly saw it on January 6th, and in this case, it was successful. But we know that these attacks can come in anyway, and you can't exactly imagine what people might try. And that's why they have to be prepared for everything. And I do believe that they are prepared. So that is one of our big major focuses. The second I know the President Elect is having the rally, a rally the night before. I'm sure there'll be all kinds of rhetoric and a lot of claims and angry, angry words, but we will see.
- [12:54]
Kara Swisher
I call them sore winners, but go ahead, go ahead.
- [12:57]
Amy Klobuchar
Okay. But on the inaugural stage, I hope that this can be different than his last inauguration. I hope that there can be appeal to people not just supported him, but people who didn't support him as well. But you know, my job is to make sure that this happens. And as hard as it is when your own candidate doesn't win, we have a job to do.
- [13:18]
Kara Swisher
I will note that President Trump did not attend President Biden's inauguration.
- [13:22]
Amy Klobuchar
That is correct. And thank you for clarifying that record.
- [13:25]
Kara Swisher
No problem. So the last tally speaking, which he raised over $150 million, I think it's closer to $200 million for inauguration festivities, beating the previous 2017 record, about 107 million. For context, Biden's inaugural fund was just under 62 million. The list of million dollar plus donors reads like a tech world. Who's, who's people. Both you and I know Amazon Meta, Uber AI startup Perplexity, the investment app Robinhood, Sam Altman of OpenAI and Apple CEO Tim Cook and others have promised personal checks of a million dollars. You've been one of the leaders on tech regulation in talked about it for years. Senator Klobuchar. What do you think of these huge donations and what do they signal to you about the upcoming administration's relationships with big tech? Compared to Trump 1.0, he was relatively hostile to tech many times, although it was haphazard, I would say.
- [14:17]
Amy Klobuchar
Now, as you know, tech has given to both sides of the aisle and I think it's important for people to know that. Yes, that is true. They have not like this, no. But they have really pushed money into campaigns on both sides of the aisle and it has had influence on both sides of my mind.
- [14:34]
Kara Swisher
Many directed at you. I will note, as we've discussed.
- [14:37]
Amy Klobuchar
Yeah, directed at me. Not given to me.
- [14:40]
Kara Swisher
No at me.
- [14:42]
Amy Klobuchar
But they are a very huge lobbying force on the Hill. That being said, of course I am concerned that they are immediately showing their colors and what the effect will have on this because effective antitrust legislation and effective enforcement, whether it's the AT&T breakup way back or whether it is some of the work going on with tech right now, which has been to some extent effective. It starts with Republican, maybe goes to Democrat goes back to Republican. That was the ATT breakup. Many different presidents, different parties. These things take a long time. Both the Google and the Facebook cases, as you know, were started during the Trump administration. Facebook with the ftc, Google under Macon Delraham, the head of antitrust under the Trump administration. And then they were carried on by Jonathan Kantor and Lina Khan. They of course added more cases with Amazon and concluded some cases and have been incredibly aggressive and not just on the tech front, but also whether it is the Kroger's Albertson merger or whether it is the work they did with Spirit Airlines, whether it's the work that they are doing and will be carried on, I hope, by the Trump administration on Ticketmaster. This has been a sea change and it's not just one party or the other. I think the Democrats were clearly more aggressive and I think that's good for our country. But this money that they're throwing at the President elect right away, right at.
- [16:14]
Kara Swisher
The beginning, he also seems to like money that seems.
- [16:17]
Amy Klobuchar
Oh really?
- [16:18]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, it is.
- [16:20]
Amy Klobuchar
It's concerning because you've got, you're going to have them have, you know, unequal access and out there I don't really see all these little, you know, companies that are trying to compete and get into the marketplace and you know, you've got, whether it's Spotify trying to get the App Store fees down from Apple or whether it is companies that are competing against Google and Amazon and simply want their products to be on an equal footing on their search engines and their self. The big monopolies are self preferencing. They're not putting a million dollars in and being able to get seats right up front there at the parties. I mean, you know that that's not happening to them. So it's my job and the job of some Republicans who care about this to make this case and have strong oversight.
- [17:09]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Quince. You can treat yourself to something new and cozy this January by updating your wardrobe robe with Quince. Quince offers a wide variety of luxury items at an affordable price. They're really well known for their iconic Mongolian cashmere sweaters which start at $50. It's a chic, classic look made with high quality material that describes a lot of Quince's offerings. Personally, I'm a fan of their luggage. I use it all the time. It is so great. And people think I had a more expensive version. They're always complimenting it all the other bags have been banished to the attic. They do have one of their cashmere sweaters which was great and it's very soft and now that it's freezing out, I really enjoy wearing it. Whatever you're looking for, all Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quint.com cara for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Care to get free shipping and a 365 day return? Quint.com Cara support for this show comes from Crucible Moments, a podcast from Sequoia Capital it's easy to think that the success of tech giants like YouTube, Dropbox and Reddit was inevitable. I was there and it wasn't. Trust me. One thing these companies have in common is that they all survived the make or break moments that nearly took them down. And each of them had these on this season of Crucible Moments, you can hear the unvarnished histories of some of of tech's influential companies told by the founders themselves. Like how Dropbox's disastrous public launch paved the way for the company's viral success. Hosted by Roelof Botha of Sequoia, Crucible Moments provides a behind the scenes look at some of the most defining milestones in tech's history to show the moments of turmoil that can sometimes become great moments of triumph. I have to say, Roloff's a really good VC and I've covered him over the many years and I have seen a lot of these companies and it's really great actually to hear from founders of what their problems was. YouTube was very touch and go. Reddit. Oh my God. I can't even tell you how many crises they had. Same thing with every company I've ever covered. Tune in to the new season of Crucible Moments. Now. You can listen@CrucibleMoments.com or wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [19:34]
Amy Klobuchar
This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's Chief Fixed Income Strategist. And I'm Linda Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's Chief Investment Strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience studying the indicators that drive the economy and how they can have a direct impact on your investments. We know that investors have a lot of questions about the markets and the economy and we're here to help. Join us each week as we explore questions like how do you evaluate corporate bonds and what sectors of the stock market are outperforming? So Kathy will analyze what's happening in the bond market and at the Fed and I'll give you our latest analysis of the equities market and the U.S. economy. And we often interview prominent guests from across the world of investing and business. So download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com on investing or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:28]
Kara Swisher
Let's talk first about tech legislation. Every week we get a question from an outside expert. Here's a guy you and I both know well.
- [20:38]
Amy Klobuchar
Hi, I'm Jonathan Kanter. I was head of antitrust at the U.S. department of justice from 2021 to 2024. Here's my question. Big tech companies have unprecedented reach into our daily lives. But remarkably, there are few if any industry guardrails regarding even the most basic issues like the collection of data and accumulation of power. For years, Congress has proposed moderate rules of the road and you have actually sponsored or co sponsored bills that have bipartisan support and widespread support from the general public. Yet here we are, unbelievably in 2025, with almost no industry rules or safeguards at all. What has to happen for Congress to finally pass table stakes legislation for tech?
- [21:20]
Kara Swisher
And I will also note, as today, Mark Zuckerberg has decided to remove most fact checking from Facebook and move it to Texas. They are doing everything possible to go against some of the many things you, you've done. So I'd love you to answer Jonathan's question first overall, and then we'll get into some specifics.
- [21:40]
Amy Klobuchar
Sure. So first of all, I love that Jonathan Kanter is a celebrity questioner on the show. He's very cool. Secondly, why has this not gone as farther than it should? I got to start with the successes and one of them is Jonathan's and it has to do with legislation because actually Senator Grassley and I passed our bill to change the merger fees. It was a vote and we got nearly, I think 90 votes are in that range for it. More fees on big mergers, less fees on small mergers. That has added significantly to the funding for the Justice Department. I do know that Merrick Garland has significantly increased with Kantors urging the number of lawyers and other personnel in antitrust. We're still not at the level of the Nixon administration, but we have greatly improved that. And that's a lot to do with what we did. So I figured if we couldn't get all our bills passed right now, that's one answer is that we Help them to do the enforcement. Second thing, we also passed a bill to Mike Lee and my bill to allow state AGs to keep their cases in the states where they bring them and not move them all to California, New York, also a bit of a game changer. What are the challenges? You mentioned one of them, the big bill, the bill I have with Grassley so they can't be self preferencing their products.
- [23:02]
Kara Swisher
This is the American innovation and competition online.
- [23:05]
Amy Klobuchar
That's exactly right.
- [23:06]
Kara Swisher
Right. It still has not passed. You and I have been talking about it for a while. Let me just for people who don't know, it would have restricted tech giants like Amazon and Apple from giving their own products preferential treatment on their site.
- [23:16]
Amy Klobuchar
Exactly. That was the main thing. But there were many other things in it and made it easier with some of this anti competitive behavior to bring cases. Okay, so there's that bill. We get it through the committee. You know that on a very strong vote, Democrats and Republicans picked up up a bunch of Republicans. But then it never was able to get a vote in part because honestly the last few years Jim Jordan over in the House had made it very clear he wasn't gonna let any tech legislation, any antitrust legislation that was significant, including my broader bill which would just kind of tip the scales a little to make it easier to bring any antitrust case, including in healthcare, including in ag and the like for mergers, but also for anti competitive behavior. And so that made it really hard to get the muster to keep pushing this bill when in fact they weren't gonna do anything in the House. So my major focus turned to making sure that we got the funding into the division. And that's really important. That's how they brought the Ticketmaster case. Do some big blockbuster hearings that we did, including one on Ticketmaster that I believe was one of the most significant hearings of the two years of any hearings in the impact that it had to gather evidence to finally push the Justice Department to move forward on. That's clearly a monopoly. And then when it comes to tech we just continue to get more allies. Sometimes it's on things like app stores and you know where we have had success and that is on these kids bills. Success in that we have gotten some of these bills through the Senate. We've got the bill on the Take it Down act that I have with Senator Cruz that we are this close to passing. I predict it'll pass in the first six months of this year. It was in the final deal that somehow Elon Musk imploded But we're not going to go there.
- [25:04]
Kara Swisher
Well, I am going to go there, actually. I'm going to go to him in a second. Go ahead.
- [25:07]
Amy Klobuchar
But, but I want to just to kind of do the forest for the trees. We did the funding. We've done better. We have done better in building momentum when the next administration under the leadership of Gail Slater, and I'm hopeful she'll do a good job.
- [25:24]
Kara Swisher
She's the new Jonathan Kanter. For people who don't know right.
- [25:28]
Amy Klobuchar
When they have the opportunity to make the agreements in some of these tech cases that aren't yet resolved, guess what they can put in their consent decrees if they're a settlement or whatever they are. Some of these things that are in my bills. Right. Because they're already doing some of these things in Europe and Canada and other countries. So they can actually put these consumer protections in place that way, even if I still can't pass them as I wait and wait. And these things in other eras have taken many, many years to get passed. So there is absolutely no way I'm going to reintroduce the bill in the first month of this year. So no way I'm going to give up. I mean, we're going to move forward.
- [26:04]
Kara Swisher
This is what I like about you. But let me just. The Kids Online Safety act had bipartisan support, failed to pass. House Speaker Mike Johnson didn't bring it the floor because as said, it was worried about it will regulate free speech. But that's one. The Take It down act, another bipartisan bill's criminalized revenge form, including AI Deepfakes passed the Senate, was taken out in the spending bill, as you noted.
- [26:23]
Amy Klobuchar
But whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. But that bill we have gotten through. We have gotten through the Senate like that bill has a very good chance.
- [26:29]
Kara Swisher
Yes, okay. But it was take it fell out. You've also introduced the no Fakes act, which generally protect people, especially actors, singers, to have their likeness and voice replicated by AI. You said we need to put rules of the road in place for AI Mostly Europe has been acting here, as you correctly noted. And obviously you've been at the forefront on antitrust legislation, much of which has been stalled. And I'm not getting to TikTok even yet. But you had Jim Jordan in your way. Now you have Elon Musk in your way for many of these things.
- [26:59]
Amy Klobuchar
The richest man in the world and.
- [27:01]
Kara Swisher
His fortune has doubled. He now has $400 billion versus $200 billion before, even though Tesla is struggling, even though the stock has gone up 68%, even though its recent results were relatively weak compared to before. So what are you going to do? Jim Jordan is one thing, but Elon Musk is quite another. And he has a cottage at Mar a Lago, by the way.
- [27:25]
Amy Klobuchar
He's living with him, so. Well, yeah, living at the same place. Okay.
- [27:31]
Kara Swisher
So number one, broadly, apparently Melania doesn't mind. According to a recent report.
- [27:37]
Amy Klobuchar
Okay. There are still some fact checkers in the world, even if Mark Zuckerberg is.
- [27:42]
Kara Swisher
Getting rid of them living next to him.
- [27:45]
Amy Klobuchar
Okay. So what we have seen across the country is, as I said, I believe there's momentum on this issue. There is a reason that the Trump administration put in a tougher enforcer who used to work with J.D. vance. Right. I talked to J.D. vance about this directly. He's willing to talk about antitrust. And that is because there is some momentum with the public when it comes to consolidation. It's big. And people are really tired of having their data stolen. They're tired of having their kids exposed to crap from fentanyl to pornography. It is off the charts with where the public is on this. So if these guys just stand and do nothing for year after year after year, believe me, it will go back to haunt them because they are already responsible for stopping the porn bill. This is the bill I have with Cruz, and it's very good. It says in 48 hours, the platforms have to take down any of these pornographic images that are on their platforms, and that includes AI and that includes actual pictures so that it's taken without people's consent. And it is a big deal. We've had over 20 suicides in one year from kids who are victims of revenge porn because they didn't want their parents to know they had put this picture online. It's unbelievably sad stories. That is in one year. So this big deal. And they're gonna own this if they don't let this stuff pass. And Elon Musk stopped that bail, I believe, for other reasons. And they have had some support from their company for some of the kids stuff. I know because I heard them testify at the hearing on some of the kids bills that we have, including the one you mentioned. So hopefully those will go through. To me, that's just like the tip of the iceberg if we can get the porn and the kids bills done. Because then you go to the real meat of this, which is antitrust. Antitrust. And that really gets into why as the National Independent Federation of Businesses, which is a more conservative group, this is their Number one goal to get this bill done that Grassley and I have, because it is. They are starting to just get screwed online because of whether it's Amazon Basics putting their stuff at the top, or whether it's Google messing around with the algorithms or whether you have, by the way, renters who are screwed because of the way information is being fed into just one platform and it's like a high price fixing that's going on. So you see this all over the place.
- [30:14]
Kara Swisher
But Senator, these people are now look, Mark Zuckerberg today just removed guardrails again, like the things you're talking about. And he attacked Europe, which has been more stringent than anybody else. And Elon Musk is now attacking European politicians with absolute misinformation just in order to hurt them, and backing right wing groups and things like that. These are technically fact. People have run amok now and they're in the positions of power that they were not in any previous administration that I can think of.
- [30:48]
Amy Klobuchar
Right, Kara? So I think that that is true and it is on us to call this out. So when Elon Musk stops a bill that would limit pornography on his own platform, it's on us to call it out, even if he was stopping the bills for some other reason. And I just think we're going to have to call people on it, show the conflicts, whether it's him or some other billionaire, because we've never seen anything like this. This is going to be a cabinet put outside of tech here that has people that we've never the likes of, which in terms of their money and the reach of their companies that we've never seen. So by the way, it's one of the reasons I've been so strong on calling not only for FBI background checks, but also for these conflict checks, economic interest forms from all of these candidates and nominees for these jobs, because we have to know where they're coming from.
- [31:45]
Kara Swisher
Well, I kind of do. I kind of do know where they're coming from. They don't want any strictures, they don't want any regulations. They'd like you to go away, that's for sure. I've heard it from them directly. I mean, the concept that these people are right next to Donald Trump and he is doing their bidding. Good example is the Supreme Court hearings this week on TikTok, China based ownership, or ByteDance, which is seeking to block the ban of the app from going into effect on January 19, the day before the inauguration. Now, I have been a longtime critic of TikTok for you know this. Trump has asked the Supreme Court, he used to be a critic, to delay the implementation. One of his biggest funders, Jeff Yass, has a hundred, who has given him $100 million, has a huge economic stake. I think he owns 15% of the company. He has basically said he does not want to support the ban. You all passed it. This is a law now at this.
- [32:37]
Amy Klobuchar
Point, so that is very clear. It's a law. And they have a way to deal with this and that is that they can simply sell that part of the company to someone that doesn't have ties to China. And I know there have been groups of investors that are interested in buying, they can divest. This is normal, as you know, in antitrust cases. It may not seem normal when you're dealing with TikTok in China, but it's normal all the time in America. When there's some kind of a antitrust reason, the government can say, okay, you can do this deal, you can do this thing, but you gotta divest your interests in foreign relations all the time. Companies have to divest certain parts of companies because they're dealing with whatever Iran or a terrorist group or you name it, this happens. And so that is what they still have the opportunity to do. Obviously, there's going to be a court case on this in the Supreme Court. This is going all the way. They've taken the case early. I have no idea how that's going to be resolved.
- [33:40]
Kara Swisher
Do you have a thought? You're a lawyer. What would you think?
- [33:43]
Amy Klobuchar
Well, I think the will of Congress was pretty clear that this was about security and national security. And of course, we want to have this ability for people to keep using this platform, but they simply need to divest it. And that's what's going on. I know there are groups of investors that are interested in right now. And as for what Trump can do, the law is clear. I mean, if he wants to change the law, he will have that ability to get a Congress that is now seems very beholden to him. I suppose he could try to do that, but at the same time, you have number of Republicans. This was a strongly bipartisan bill that passed. Whoa, whoa, whoa. While the Republicans controlled the House and were very close in the Senate and it had bipartisan support in the Senate or wouldn't pass. So that's what he's going to run into. And it was all about security. I personally, and you know, this would have liked to see a law that would have been about, yeah, the security issues with China. Yes, but also would have dealt with some of these other privacy issues and antitrust issues with Facebook, with Google, with Amazon, with Apple. And that just didn't happen because of their lobbying against my bill, against the App Store bill, which simply says, hey, you can't just pell mell charge certain companies huge amounts of money just to get on your App Store while they're competing against, say, Spotify, competing against Apple Music. So these things which are going on in other countries are things we could do here. And I just want to make it very clear, I am in this. I am not giving up the fight. I'm gonna hold them accountable for this. And at the same time, as we continue to grow and we do, more interest in this, less people saying, oh, Amy, what's wrong with the tech companies? Why are you being mean to them? And I'm like, I love tech. I really do. I use all the platforms. I have a Fitbit. I use all these things. But it doesn't mean that I don't want competition. I truly believe in capitalism. So I just say to them, I guess I believe in capitalism more than you do. That's all. I believe that we should have competition and that we shouldn't have monopolies that are dominating. That's to me what it's about. It's not destroying these companies. It's simply finding ways to have more competition and not allowing them to use their monopoly power to screw everyone around them. They can still exist under the scenario. They simply may have to divest part of it. Whether it's Google Ads, whether it is how they're running their ad tech platform, whether it is what's going on with self preferencing. There are ways to do this where they would continue in all their glorious strong brands. Look at, at and T. They're still going strong after that breakup.
- [36:20]
Kara Swisher
All right, so one, you should probably use an OURA ring at this point.
- [36:23]
Amy Klobuchar
But an Oura ring, okay, that's what Mark Warner wears, an OURA ring. And it just. I have really small hands and I think it would look like super dominant on my hand. Are you. Are you wearing an I have an OURA ring?
- [36:36]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I am.
- [36:36]
Amy Klobuchar
Of course you do. But I don't know if I want to like, track every single moment of my life. I just use a simple thing to see my steps.
- [36:44]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [36:45]
Amy Klobuchar
I try to be a little. And when my phone calls come in. But thank you for that. Thank you for your text suggestion.
- [36:51]
Kara Swisher
No problem. But one of the things that might happen was he hands it over to Elon Musk, who has some Chinese affiliations with his companies?
- [36:59]
Amy Klobuchar
Well, I don't know. I'm not going to engage in these hypotheticals, but it is a distinctly that's going to be a big deal. And I wish they would have taken the opportunity of divestiture and ways to do it seriously. And we'll see if they do.
- [37:14]
Kara Swisher
And do you think China will go along with this?
- [37:17]
Amy Klobuchar
Well, that is, again, this is a company with strong Chinese ties. We know all of that and that's why Congress passed this bill. But again, maybe there is a way to resolve this.
- [37:31]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Do you feel like your leads never.
- [37:42]
Amy Klobuchar
Lead anywhere and you're making content that.
- [37:45]
Kara Swisher
No one sees and it takes forever to build a campaign? Well, that's why we built HubSpot. It's an AI powered customer platform that builds campaigns for you, tells you which.
- [37:56]
Amy Klobuchar
Leads are worth knowing, and makes writing.
- [37:58]
Kara Swisher
Blogs, creating videos and posting on social a breeze. So now it's easier than ever to be a marketer. Get started@HubSpot.com marketers hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team.
- [38:12]
Amy Klobuchar
If big wireless companies are allowed to.
- [38:14]
Kara Swisher
Raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year.
- [38:21]
Amy Klobuchar
Contracts, they said, what the are you talking about, you insane Hollywood.
- [38:25]
Kara Swisher
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- [39:01]
Amy Klobuchar
With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year.
- [39:04]
Kara Swisher
Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply. Let's finish up. With the Trump administration coming very quickly. I'm not going to get into all the controversial appointments on Trump's list because there are many. There are some that are close issues you focus on. You're on the Senate Judiciary Committee and a Commerce Committee. You were chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Anti Trust. So let's do a lightning round. I'm gonna name some nominees like you to tell me briefly the question you'd like to ask them in a Senate hearing. If they have one, a few of them won't. And what's your biggest concern about? You don't have to. Whichever one. Or their biggest concern about their nomination. Former Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi, Trump's ag, picked. You said you worried about revenge.
- [39:42]
Amy Klobuchar
Okay, well, I'm gonna be meeting with her before the hearing, so I'll have an opportunity to ask a lot of questions. But my basic question for the next attorney general is will uphold the law. That is what an attorney general is supposed to do.
- [39:56]
Kara Swisher
That's kind of basic.
- [39:58]
Amy Klobuchar
And I think that'll get us into. I will also, of course, I think this is very important to do. Will you enforce the law when it comes to financial crimes and all kinds of things that we know are going on that are hurting people in the economy? But I'm also gonna ask about antitrust, which is part of that, because if I don't, I don't know who will. My guess is Senator Blumenthal will and some of the Republicans will. But we've gotta make sure that that is up front and center. And I'll be asking her about that in our private meeting as well.
- [40:26]
Kara Swisher
And you've noted that you're worried about revenge being part of her mission. Gail Slater, who you've mentioned to lead the DOJ's antitrust division, she was an aide to Vice President elect J.D. vance. She inherits lawsuits you mentioned before.
- [40:39]
Amy Klobuchar
Right.
- [40:39]
Kara Swisher
I've heard very good things about her.
- [40:41]
Amy Klobuchar
Yeah. And I'm looking forward to meeting with her. I've heard the same. And I'm looking forward to talking with her just about some of the cases. She obviously can't go in deep about what they're doing, what she will wanna do with certain cases. But I'll just give her some of my views and really push to have them. Look at the legislation that we have now that the Justice Department supported, cause that would help me make. And Delraheim had supported, for instance, the merger fee bill. And we eventually got it done. I'll push on that. And then I'll say look at the details in some of those pieces of legislation and think about how they can be incorporated in consent decrees with the companies as to remedy what is monopoly conduct. And in a way that is one way we can get into without passing the legislation, changing the conduct for everyone.
- [41:30]
Kara Swisher
So I'm going to put as a pair Andrew Ferguson and Brandon Carr. Andrew Ferguson is going to replace Lena Khan as the head of efcc. Brandon Carr, I Thought you were going to Kash Patel. I'm going to get to him.
- [41:42]
Amy Klobuchar
Don't worry.
- [41:42]
Kara Swisher
He's the last two. Andrew Ferguson and Brandon Carr, neither of two will actually have confirmation hearings because they're already on the committees. But they both say want to crack down on big tech, although it's. And also media companies and their biggest concern seems to be content moderation against conservative voices.
- [42:00]
Amy Klobuchar
So I will. We won't have a confirmation hearing, but I think you can imagine I will ask for a meeting with each of them. I've met with Brendan Carr. We had previous confirmation hearings on Ferguson. And I mean I'm going to be. Or previous hearings. I'm going to be really pushing hard on the ongoing cases, the tech cases and what they're going to do. I'm also going to be pushing really hard on the resource issue because the merger fee change that I mentioned gave more resources to both the FTC and to the Justice Department. As I said, something like a 90 vote. A 90 senator vote on that. It just shows that I'm not alone in believing that this is good for America. When they enforce these laws. It actually brings in resources some of the cases do to the departments that they will lead. And so they'll be. I'm going to have focus a lot on them standing up for the law and the antitrust laws and of course the consumer laws with the ftc.
- [42:57]
Kara Swisher
Kash Patel, go for it. Unless you want Pete Hegseth, you choose. Ladies, choose.
- [43:02]
Amy Klobuchar
I'll stay with my Judiciary Committee nominee. I guess I may ask about why did Bill Bar, a very conservative attorney general, say that over his dead body would Kash Patel serve in the administration back in the last administration? That seems concerning.
- [43:21]
Kara Swisher
Concerning.
- [43:22]
Amy Klobuchar
And so then I. I don't know if I'll say it that way, but I'll.
- [43:26]
Kara Swisher
No say concerning, please.
- [43:28]
Amy Klobuchar
Given that we just saw a terrorist attack, a horrific terrorist attack with so many innocent people, so many of them young, dying in New Orleans and what we just saw in Vegas and all of the cyber attacks that we've seen change healthcare. How do you explain that you want the FBI building in Washington to become a museum and that you want to destroy the headquarters? And I get having strong field offices. I'm a former local da. I know how important that is. But come on. Some of these investigations are by their nature consolidated. You're not going to have just a, you know, Minnesota or a New Mexico investigation. You have to have them coordinated. And just some of the comments that he's made about having a revenge Agenda very concerning to me.
- [44:21]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. As to everyone. Okay, last few questions. As an outgoing head of the subcommittee on antitrust, you held a hearing about continuing bipartisan path forward. As you mentioned at the beginning of.
- [44:30]
Amy Klobuchar
This, it was a very good hearing.
- [44:32]
Kara Swisher
Yes. Now, there's been lots of bipartisan agreement and I know you're from a purple state and you pulled from a broad swath of voters in your reelection, but do you really think a Republican trifecta in Washington is looking to reach across the aisle? They don't have to now.
- [44:46]
Amy Klobuchar
They don't, but they still do in the Senate, Kara. I mean, like, you know, except for These nominations are 51 votes and these some certain kinds of things like tax and spend, that can be 51 votes in that procedural thing called reconciliation, but the rest of it is 60 votes. So in the Senate, they are going to need bipartisan support on a lot of things, including antitrust. And so I start with that where they're going to have to work across the aisle. They can't do a just, hey, we run the world so we can do what we want. At the same time. If they all really believe in doing something on consolidation, well, they've got the votes because I can easily get them seven Democrats in a minute. There's 53 of them in the Senate and they have the majority in the House. So they think holding them accountable for using that majority in positive ways is going to be really important. And if they want to talk the talk on consolidation and doing something about tech and privacy and pornography and protecting the public, and they believe in capitalism, which I believe many of them do. And if they really believe in it, then they can't be bought out by monopoly interests. Whether it's for the inauguration or whether it is for the way that legislation heads through Congress.
- [46:10]
Kara Swisher
And that is your red line.
- [46:11]
Amy Klobuchar
Red line will be. You guys need to push on getting things done. And I know it's hard because it's even a little hard on our side sometimes. I'm not some, you know, Pollyanna about how hard it is to pass this tech legislation, but the cases that you've got already and the ones you can bring, they better be resolved in a good way that helps the American public and not sold out for cheap.
- [46:37]
Kara Swisher
Okay, last two questions. In 2028, are you running for president again?
- [46:43]
Amy Klobuchar
I am happy being in the Senate. I just moved into the number three leadership spot in the Democratic caucus.
- [46:52]
Kara Swisher
The president's kind of better. President's still better.
- [46:56]
Amy Klobuchar
Every day is just a joy here. No, I am focused on My job. I just got reelected. And I think that we have such an important job right now in the Senate that I hope no one's thinking yet of their own damn four years. They've gotta be. No one's thinking about what's in front of us.
- [47:13]
Kara Swisher
It's amazing. Nobody is. Nobody is.
- [47:16]
Amy Klobuchar
No one. No one. Anyway, so are you having fun with this podcast, Kara?
- [47:20]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I am. All right, I'll move on.
- [47:22]
Amy Klobuchar
It's very good. What's your plan for your podcast four years from now?
- [47:27]
Kara Swisher
I'm kidding. Bigger than ever.
- [47:29]
Amy Klobuchar
Who are you going to have on your guest three years from now?
- [47:33]
Kara Swisher
President Amy Klobuchar, hopefully.
- [47:35]
Amy Klobuchar
All right.
- [47:36]
Kara Swisher
Anyway, one more last personal question. The podcast will air on Thursday, January 9, the day that President Jimmy Carter's funeral. Your first gig in Washington was as a college intern for Carter's vice President Mondale. Another famous Minnesotan. He seems to be the opposite of everything right now, it feels to me. I'd love you just to talk for one minute about Carter and his legacy for you.
- [48:00]
Amy Klobuchar
So I got to know Carter quite well. I got to have pimento cheese sandwiches with Rosalynn and Jimmy Carter down in Plains. I got to watch him teach Bible school. And a lot of that was because of Walter Mondale. And if you go down to the Carter center, which I strongly suggest people do in Atlanta, you see emblazoned on the wall, the words of Walter Mondale not uttered when they won, but when they lost. And he looked back at their four years and he said, we told the truth, we obeyed the law, we kept the peace. We told the truth, we obeyed the law, we kept the peace. I can't think of a better mantra of a better goal for us and purpose in the next few years. So Jimmy Carter not only taught us how to run when no one thought you could win and have a purpose, and that's why he did it. And by the way, his relationships with musicians is kind of fun. My favorite movie of the year. My favorite movie of the year.
- [48:53]
Kara Swisher
Rock and roll presentation.
- [48:54]
Amy Klobuchar
No, the Dylan movie.
- [48:55]
Kara Swisher
Oh, the Dylan movie. Okay.
- [48:56]
Amy Klobuchar
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I really like it. It's really good. So a complete unknown. That was Jimmy Carter back then, Right? So he taught us that then. He taught us how to govern with dignity during a very difficult time then. And that's where the told the truth, obeyed the law, kept the peace. But then what did he do when he lost? Resiliency. Unbelievable. Post presidency, building homes across the country with the expansion of Habitat for Humanity. The work he's done on human, the work that he's done did on so many other things that mattered. And I just think that that resiliency is something people need right now. A lot of people feel gut punched after this election. Duh. You know, they're tuning out. Hopefully they're listening to their podcast or they wouldn't get to the end of this podcast for me to answer this question. So they are not totally tuned out, but there's a lot of people that are tuned out and they feel so separated out. So what I say to them is go back in. And it might just mean going to your work parties and hanging out at ball games and doing things you wouldn't normally go to concerts and seeing each other again and looking up from your phones. But it also means believing in a purpose and what you can accomplish and not giving up. We might have lost an election from my perspective, but we didn't lose hope.
- [50:13]
Kara Swisher
All right, Senator Klobuchar, thank you so much.
- [50:15]
Amy Klobuchar
Thank you. Thanks, Kara.
- [50:18]
Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro, Russell Kateri Yocum, Jolie Meyers, Megan Cunane, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are watching your steps like Senator Klobuchar. If not, be more like me and put a ring on it. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.