← On with Kara Swisher
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- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
You're a very good public servant, I have to say.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Thank you.
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Kara Swisher
Although I wouldn't vote for you either.
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Senator Thom Tillis
I would vote for you.
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Kara Swisher
To be fair, I'm not running. I'm just running my mouth.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is North Carolina Republican Senator Thom Tillis, and he's one of the very few Republicans willing to criticize the Trump administration right now. That's mainly because he's not running for reelection this year, in part because of
- [00:38]
Kara Swisher
criticisms from President Trump.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
Tillis has voiced skepticism about the administration's goals in Iran. He's refused to confirm President Trump's pick to head the Federal Reserve until the Justice Department drops an investigation into its current chair, Jerome Powell. And earlier this month, he also got a lot of attention for eviscerating now former Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, chief during a Senate hearing.
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Senator Thom Tillis
We're an exceptional nation, and one of the reasons we're exceptional is we expect exceptional leadership. And you've demonstrated anything but that in the time that I've seen you responding to the emergency in North Carolina and across the Southeast and acknowledging when mistakes are made.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
But Tillis is careful not to criticize Trump himself. He says the problem is the people around the president giving him bad advice,
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Kara Swisher
whom President Trump hired, by the way.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
But that's another issue we'll talk about. And Tillis voted to confirm some of those very people, like Noem, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, and FBI Director Kash Patel. I think Thom Tillis is super smart. He was an ex business person.
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Kara Swisher
At the same time, you know, he's
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
got the reputation of too late Tom,
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Kara Swisher
because he wasn't saying these things, which
- [01:49]
Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
I think he actually thought earlier. I think he's in a great position, though, to stop some of the nonsense, and he's using it until he leaves office next January of 2020, when his term is up.
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Kara Swisher
It's a shame that people like him
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
can't say what they want, because he's actually very smart. I agree with him on very little. At the same time, I really do respect his intelligence, and so I was very excited to talk to him. All right, let's get into my conversation with Thom Tillis. We've got two expert questions today, one from longtime Washington defense attorney Abby Lowell, who we've interviewed on this program and who's representing some of Trump's perceived enemies. He's also represented people in the Trump family too an interesting lawyer. The other is from a listener who's also one of Tillis's constituents. It's not every day we get a Republican on the show, so stick around. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt.
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Kara Swisher
Oh, I love the Chevy Bolt.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
I have mine. How long is 25 minutes? The quick workout or a stop to the grocery store? Salty amount of time it takes you to charge your Chevy Bolt. As I said, I drive the Chevy Bolt myself.
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Kara Swisher
An older version.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
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Kara Swisher
Buy the Chevy Bolt Foreign.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
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Kara Swisher
It is on Senator Thom Tillis, thanks for coming on on.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Thank you.
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Kara Swisher
I like your swanky setup here in the Senate.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah, I like it. They've done a really good job during the Republican conference.
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Kara Swisher
Yeah, it's really nice. It's a good one. I worked here for Senator SI Hayakawa, also a Republican, when I was a child and we did not have this. Anyway, a note to listeners. We're taping this conversation late Thursday afternoon, so things may have changed by the Time you're hearing it, but let's dive in. Let's start with the war in Iran. It's something you talked about a little bit. President Trump is sending conflicting messages about whether the war is ramping up or winding down or we want it or they better talk to us. And Republicans are getting anxious. Obviously, Congressman Mike Rogers, who chairs the House Armed Services Committee, blasted the Pentagon for not giving lawmakers enough information in these briefings almost a month into this conflict. Talk about what's happening now in the
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Senator Thom Tillis
realistic end, I don't think one's been articulated. And quite honestly, my response to the press over the last week when they've asked me if I'm getting briefed, I said it's less important for me to be briefed right now than the committees of jurisdiction. But when you hear a chair of a committee of jurisdiction saying it's insufficient information, that is unacceptable. I am looking at this initiative in Iran through the lens of the War Powers act. And I'm willing to give my president a fair amount of latitude within 60 days, but that we're almost at the 30 day mark now. And so there has to be very clear strategic objectives. You know, some of the tactical objectives obviously would have to be to the extent that we need to know them, would probably be done in a classified setting. But we need to state precisely what we're doing there. We know why we're there to begin with, but now we need to know why we're going to continue to be there or including considering having boots on the ground. I've got Marines from North Carolina and the 82nd Airborne. And so now I'm going to join the chorus of saying it's time to get us in the skiff. It's time to determine what's next. And you're only going to get that before we go to an aumf, because
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Kara Swisher
one of the things was a lot of Republicans off the record were saying, you know, 15 days into this, it's too much. 60 days is your breaking point, or would you vote for a War powers resolution?
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, 60 days is really prescribed by the War Powers Resolution. I think if, if we don't have clarity and at the 60 day mark, then you either are determining that you're ramping down over 30 days within the, within the numbers of the War Powers Resolution, or you're there for beyond that. And if you're there for beyond that, it is absolutely reasonable to expect that you have to have an authorization for the use of military force to legitimize this and I think you will get it if you're clear on the objectives and you're clear on what we're trying to do there strategically. And you need support for the tactics that you believe are necessary to accomplish that strategic goal.
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Kara Swisher
And what would that mean? What would that mean for you to vote for a war powers Resolution?
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I think that we need to like we've had to deal with and other Middle east engagements. We just need to look at what the metes and bounds of an authorization would look like. And that's going to be fluid, but it's going to be necessary or it'd be very, very difficult for me to support future action after the 60 day mark. In the absence of that information, we just can't have these endless engagements. I mean, my goodness, Republicans ran on the concept of endless, endless wars. The last thing we want to do is appear to be hypocrites when we're confronted with the same sorts of challenges that we criticize Democrats for.
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Kara Swisher
Do you appear to be hypocrites at this moment?
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Senator Thom Tillis
I don't think so yet.
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Kara Swisher
Okay.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Because again, look, I do believe that Iran. First off, when I ran for the Senate, I was highly critical of Obama's jcpoa. I don't think it was sustainable. It was a part of that governing with the pen and the phone thing that I think administrations have had, including the current administration. You want to have legitimacy with international engagements, you should get the article one branch involved. Correct. And so the message now is just that. And we're going to give them some deference. I'm going to give them some deference for the next 30 or so days. But if we don't have an abundance of clarity by then, then it becomes a real problem. I also think it becomes a political problem.
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Kara Swisher
It is a political problem.
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Senator Thom Tillis
It's already a political problem.
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Kara Swisher
So when you think about that, where is the fault line? Is it President Trump changing, saying we won, we're leaving, we're going, or is it Defense Sec. War Secretary Pete Hegseth? Where is the problem?
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Senator Thom Tillis
I don't know. I have to view Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, as the person who's at the tip of the spear providing best military advice from professionals. But at the end of the day, he owns the work product and I'll be judging how well he's doing based on the best advice he's given the president and how well the president articulates our goals going forward.
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Kara Swisher
And what grade would you give him now?
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I think we're too early to give them I'll give it an incomplete because we simply. I do believe that, like the bombings from last year, it was good to degrade capabilities of the Iranians. They're no friend.
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Kara Swisher
They were supposed to be obliterated, but not.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah, well, it was semi obliterated, I guess, but. But, you know, I don't like using absolute words to describe complex things, but the president did. And I think that that's a part of what confuses people because, you know, I think people want to know, well, my. We thought we obliterated things. Now we're back, and we've obliterated them again. Well, if we obliterated them again, why do we need ground truth? What strategic goal is necessary post obliteration that puts U.S. service members at risk?
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Kara Swisher
I had a fascinating discussion with your colleague, Senator Mark Warner, about that, and he was like, only way to get rid of the things they're talking about is to have our troops there. And it's obvious. But talk about a realistic conclusion, because regime change seems unlikely at this point. And this is something. Actually, when I talked to Senator Warner, he said, absolutely not. These people are gonna stay. This was before it was clear they weren't gonna. They were gonna stay in Paris. But he said, in unstable regimes, it's still in place, is potentially even more dangerous. What is the realistic end that you see?
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, that's what concerns me about the after. I mean, you could create. If we're not careful with how we conclude this, we could create a more dangerous situation than we have today. Maybe less so on any immediate nuclear threat, but more so on having Iran, Milan influence in Hamas and Hezbollah and other organizations that they've supported internationally. They just turn that dial up if they're. If they're losing on the nuclear option. So I think there is a scenario where they become maybe counterintuitive since so much obliteration's going on. But it could create a more dangerous situation if we don't handle the after properly.
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Kara Swisher
Trump extended his deadline to reopen the Strait of Hormuz. If he doesn't, he's threatened to strike Iran's power plants, which are civilian infrastructure. If he does it, a major escalation. Right. And a possible war crime is against civilians. He decided to strike those power plants. Where would it leave us? And especially when they have other ways of attacking us in the straits of Hormuz with drones, with small boats. And so we spend a million dollars on a missile that obliterates a 50 speaking. Obliterates a $50,000 drone.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, that's you know, we have to look at. We should also view that threat if we follow, if the United States follows through on hitting civilian infrastructure. I don't know what the current sentiment is among the Iranian people, but you could begin to alienate those who would like nothing more than to see regime change when you start killing mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children. So they've got to be very, very careful with that. And like you said, they've got to be very cognizant of the fact that we could be moving into violation of the law of war. So we've got to make the general sense and the Pentagon get this. I hope that they're the ones who are trying to look around corners for the President to understand the second third order effects.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
I think these suggested not to do this.
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Kara Swisher
I think, I believe.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, that's what I would be shocked if in a brief, before the decision was made for the second incursion, if someone said one of the first things that the Iranians are going to do is close the Strait of Hormuz, that should not have been a shock to anybody. I was fully expecting it.
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Kara Swisher
Sure, sure.
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Senator Thom Tillis
In fact, to a certain extent, I was expect it in the first incursion last year. So hopefully those with stars on their shoulders are going to win the day in terms of the path forward, because if they don't, we're doing it at our own peril.
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Kara Swisher
Do you think they will?
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Senator Thom Tillis
I'm hopeful that they will. And I think that it's concerning to me when you have a House chair of a committee of jurisdiction saying he's not getting enough information, because most of these generals have no problem with going into the SCIF and outlining their plans. So that makes me, you know, I'm an overly skeptical person anyway, but that makes me a little bit concerned about who's actually calling the shots and advising
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Kara Swisher
the president or getting to the president.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah, right.
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Kara Swisher
So President Trump has been pressuring the Senate to pass the voter ID law, known as the Save America Act. It would require proof of citizenship to register to vote. You've said the bill doesn't have the votes to pass and you pose getting rid of the filibuster for that. And that's exactly what President Trump wants. Senate Republicans, very clear that filibuster isn't going anywhere. Why haven't you all been able to persuade him?
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Senator Thom Tillis
I don't know. The president and I still, I think I mentioned this to the group when you and I were together first time. The president and I still have a good relationship. I've made it very clear to him that there are no circumstances that I would support nuke and the filibuster because we're going to be here after his administration's gone. It will do irreparable harm to the institution of the Senate and I think by extension the US and shame on the Democrats for trying to nuke the filibuster after they signed a letter with me telling President Trump won that we would never nuke the filibuster. Hopefully they'll go back to their roots and defend it in the future because now that's the argument we need to do it because they will. It's an irrational argument for them. That's right. But I think one thing about the SAVE act that just blows my mind is do you want to know how many US senators are representing states that have voter ID? I don't know, 72. So we don't have 72 red states. That's a mix of red states and blue states. You could argue about whether or not they're up to the standards that we would like for them to be. I'd have no problem with laying down a bill that says these are the federal standards. If you achieve them, then you get funding for completing your elections. If you don't, then that money will be used to audit your elections. That's a way to actually address for the handful of states that may not move forward, but there are not votes to get this done. It won't achieve the 60 vote threshold. And there is that for the nuclear
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Kara Swisher
option, all the reporting.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah.
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Kara Swisher
It's solving a problem that doesn't exist.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah, but, but the reality is I don't know why people. It's become such an irrational partisan div.
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Kara Swisher
In my opinion, like trying to stop people from voting. Right.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, you know, to me it's like, what is the big deal? I was speaker of the House when we passed voter ID in North Carolina. And we use the Hava documents, things that you could use as a replacement for it. I got criticized by the right for doing that. We even agreed to pay, I think at the time it was estimated $8 to give somebody a government issue ID if they don't. I mean, this is empowering people.
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Kara Swisher
If you are going to give people an idea, a lot of it is they don't have an idea or they have to change name or they don't have a pass. Passports are 100 and we need to be smart.
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Senator Thom Tillis
But I, you know, I think that some of the real problems that I have with the underlying language and the bill has to do with absentee balloting that's working great in red states like North Carolina. And if you, if you get rid of all but extreme cases for absentee balloting, you're going to have an enormously negative impact in Alaska, in Montana, in a number of other red states.
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Kara Swisher
Right, Senator Murkowski.
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Senator Thom Tillis
And so it's just polit. I would think that if they really seriously believed that this law could get passed, then they would have taken care of those defects. So there's a side of me that wonders if this was all just theater to nuke the filibuster rather than really putting in good, solid, durable voter id, which I believe we should have in this case.
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Kara Swisher
He would like to nuke the filibuster. What does he say to you when you say I'm not doing that?
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Senator Thom Tillis
The president, I've never had really a pitched discussion at all, even with the discussions or disagreements that we have. But I'm just saying, guys, you're gone in 2028. We, they, the people who are going to be here are going to have to pick up the pieces. And as a business person, I said, do you all have any earthly idea how damaging the US Going from making it really difficult to do something bad or do something good with the 60 vote threshold to having massive swings in regulatory tax policy every two, four or six years from a business perspective, you would get a complete, I would discount, I advise clients on setting up oper and I would take away the premium. People are willing to pay a premium to set up shop in the United States because of the rule of law and the level of certainty that comes with how difficult it is to change the law. Major law.
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Kara Swisher
Right.
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Listener Bob Thomason
Right.
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Senator Thom Tillis
It creates chaos that goes away. And so that diminishes our global competitiveness. That I believe a bedrock of that is the exact way the article 1 branch is structured today.
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Kara Swisher
So Trump said this week that he wants to tie his voter ID legislation, the deal to open the Department of Homeland Security. It's been shut down for more than a month. Speaking of cha us talk a little bit about this,
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Senator Thom Tillis
about the situation at
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Kara Swisher
TS and linking it to this other bill.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Oh, I don't think it makes any sense. It takes something that's already impossible in terms of passing the SAVE act in its current form and making something that we must get done equally impossible. So let's just separate. I know the president's frustrated, by the way. I had this with a Democrat governor and a Republican governor. I don't mind the president trying to make his branch the Steward. He is the ultimate steward of his branch, as powerful as possible. I don't mind that. What I mind is people not being good stewards of the article. One branch on something that they know is critically important to the functioning of this great nation. And so, you know, let's set save aside and let's talk about dhs. Well, look, the operations, and this is where the Democrats have to acknowledge that the operations that they are trying to defund are not going to want for funding for a good two and a half or three years. The big beautiful bill gave them the baseline funding to build the wall and to do the sort of operations that ICE needs to do. So now we're kind of holding tsa, the Coast Guard. I had somebody asked me, a reporter coming over here, what do you think about a unanimous consent for tsa? I said, number one, I've got to believe some Democrat pick one that's not up until 2030 will object to it. Number two, it just means that now the focus will be on, I would say the Coast Guard who's in the Strait of Hormuz and they're the only people in that region right now. The other armed services are being paid and they're not. That will become the next story. So the bottom line is we need to get the funding bill done and we should not leave Washington. This will come out after, probably after this is resolved, but we should not leave Washington until we do get it done. And whether that's through administrative action through an act of Congress, this funding needs to get done. I believe so. Now again, the question is, is it through an act of Congress that maybe embraces some of the reforms, or is it through administrative action where they have the authority to move some resources around,
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Kara Swisher
no masks, for example.
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Senator Thom Tillis
I don't have a problem. The problem that I have if you've been on the border, for example, I've done several border tours in the middle of the night and I've had. I've witnessed encounters with people who are subsequently proven to have been members of cartel. Of course they should have their mask up then if they're riding through the streets of Minneapolis between meetings, absolutely not. I think there's a happy median. But for the people saying their mask should always be down, really, as somebody who's just dealt with a family doxxing event two weeks ago, that's the world I've chosen to live in. I don't think that that's fair for law enforcement. So there's gotta be a balance.
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Kara Swisher
No other law enforcement wears it.
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Senator Thom Tillis
It doesn't have to be black.
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Kara Swisher
None of the rest of us are wearing those masks to hide ourselves.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Well, that's right. But you're also not going into a place where the other argument here is everybody is casting everybody that works in ice as bad people. The vast majority of them are good people. There are mothers and fathers, they're brothers and sisters who go to work every day in a dangerous job. And when they're in dangerous settings with people who contract killers and murder people, then I think that they deserve that extra piece of protection.
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Kara Swisher
But not everywhere.
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Senator Thom Tillis
But not everywhere. This world's so binary. I just get so I get it.
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Kara Swisher
I just feel like if military doesn't wear it, police don't wear it. Judges. Judges. You. You.
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Senator Thom Tillis
I actually believe that there's something to be said for more judges protection because they've been politicized. Remember when Chuck Schermer said we'll unleash a whirlwind on the Supreme Court? So that became standard. That the Article 3's in play now,
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Kara Swisher
but I bet you wouldn't like to be in a court and have a
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
judge with a mask.
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Senator Thom Tillis
100%.
- [22:41]
Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
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Kara Swisher
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
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Kara Swisher
let me go through a couple of things. You recently went viral for a brutal takedown of former DHS Secretary Kristi Noem during the Senate hearing.
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Senator Thom Tillis
Didn't know it went viral, but I do remember the meeting.
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Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
Yeah.
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Kara Swisher
You had a chart. That was great. I love a chart. And you voiced confidence in her replacement, Oklahoma Senator Mark Wayne Mullen. Talk a little bit about what happened there. And also, when it comes to immigration, the administration isn't changing its goal to deport millions of people, a million people in one year. Is it meaningfully different from your perspective under Mullon?
- [27:17]
Senator Thom Tillis
It will be. I believe it will be. Actually, you were asking me about the bolo. It represents the Lumbee tribe. I'll give you a good example of the kind of character that. The kind of character that Mark Wayne Mullen possesses. Mark Wayne Mullen is an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation. But when he was even in the House, he decided to vote for Lumbee recognition because he believes, he studied it and he believes it was wrong. So he was willing to go up against his own tribe and the politics of it because he believed it was the right thing to do. I believe he's going to carry that same sort of thought process into his new role. And I also believe he will project that thought process on any advisors from the White House that are at odds with what he believes is the right thing to do. Stephen Miller or anybody else. I think it seems like there was a fair amount of evidence that the prior Secretary Noem had a lot, that Stephen Miller had a lot of influence. I think that Mark Wayne will listen to all comers, but I don't see Mark Wayne losing many arguments or differences of opinion if those two are at odds with each other on what's best to do for Homeland Security. I also think Mark Wayne is going to let FEMA be fema, get the right leadership in there, set it and forget it. It is a part of Homeland Security. One of the reasons I got mad at that hearing was an hour before the hearing, after a month of waiting, I was told that they were not going to give me information on the operation in Charlotte.
- [28:46]
Kara Swisher
Yep.
- [28:46]
Senator Thom Tillis
And I'm going. That told me all I needed to know about how poorly the operation was executed in Charlotte. Because if you had 500 encounters, and 250 of them were people who had criminal records, dangerous criminal records. I mean, Washington loves embarrassing politicians. Right. And particularly some of the people in this administration. If they had that evidence that just made it clearly it was a resounding success. I wouldn't have gotten a letter an hour before the hearing saying, you're not going to get it. That's what made me angry. And that's why went into the hearing a little bit hotter than I prefer to be, actually.
- [29:21]
Kara Swisher
Right. And you don't think he'll be pulled around by Stephen Miller? And do you think Miller has had a deleterious impact on.
- [29:28]
Senator Thom Tillis
I think Stephen. Stephen Miller. I just feel like I've told the President, I've told other people, I said, look, this guy is a surfer. I mean, he surfed into D.C. with Jeff Sessions and quickly surfs onto some other wave. I mean, does anybody really believe Stephen Miller is going to be the curator of the Trump Museum or the Trump Library when we're down here, he's going to surf onto something else. I don't appreciate. What really made my private conflict become public with Miller is when he went on TV and said, it is the position of the United States that Greenland will become a part of the U. S. He doesn't speak for the Article 1 branch. He doesn't actually speak for the American people. He speaks for one branch that represents the American people. And that's what made me feel like he was skating way outside of its lanes. And that made me angry because I also, you know, the Republican leader of the Senate NATO observer group have been since 2018. And I know how those words are perceived in capitals across Europe. And I wanted to make it very clear he didn't speak for me or the vast majority of the members of Congress on this particular issue.
- [30:34]
Kara Swisher
Right. I think you're saying he's over his skis on his board. He's got his way over his on lots of issues.
- [30:40]
Senator Thom Tillis
That's right.
- [30:41]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [30:41]
Senator Thom Tillis
So go back, be an advisor. But, you know, stop enjoying watching yourself on tv. That's not a party to be on tv.
- [30:48]
Kara Swisher
Very quickly, Kevin Warsh, when is he. Will he be appointed? The DOJ's investigation of Jerome Powell and the renovation system is still ongoing, although they're losing in court.
- [30:57]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, the hearing, I mean, obviously if you're a prosecutor, you should have been embarrassed by. By the ruling of the judge. And now we've subsequently heard even prosecutors stipulate it, that they didn't really have
- [31:08]
Kara Swisher
much evidence of the doj.
- [31:10]
Senator Thom Tillis
But, you know, I Go back. I'm going. Guys, this is so weird. I was at. Trustee.
- [31:14]
Kara Swisher
OJ Was talking about it.
- [31:16]
Senator Thom Tillis
I was at the alleged scene of the crime. Right. And so were seven other members, including the chair. We all said that there was no criminal act, no criminal act occurred. So what more. I mean, you got a prosecutor insisting a crime occurred in spite of the fact that the majority, everybody who's spoken on the issue said no crime occurred. So I say all that to say until that case is carried through, through maybe more evidence comes up that they can convince me beyond two minutes of testimony. I like Kevin. I think he'll be a great chair and we can have the hearing at any time. But I will withhold my vote, which in committee means that it won't get reported out of committee and there's no path to discharge.
- [31:58]
Kara Swisher
Trump seemed to double down today. He said the guy whose interest rates are too high, it seems to be related to interest rates and not to get him pressured. This guy's not to be pressured.
- [32:08]
Senator Thom Tillis
It relates to Fed independence, which is exactly why Sunday night I took the definitive position that I did to make sure on Monday morning when markets opened up, they didn't wake up for the first time since the existence of the Fed, that the Fed serves at the pleasure of the President. It doesn't. What I like about what Warsh is saying is you're going to still have independence with respect to the dual mandate, but there are other things that go on in the Fed that I think we do need more transparency when you talk about bank examinations and supervisory functions. So I like what he wants to bring. And now because some prosecutor with a dream decided to go forth with subpoena and an investigation, I'm in the position unless it's completed. I got 283 days left, and I'm simply not going to vote for it.
- [32:56]
Kara Swisher
He seems to have run out of Fox, I think, as they say. Yeah, yeah, he seems to have. So just very briefly, you're not voting for Casey means the next Surgeon General, as usual.
- [33:04]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I've said I'm a lean no. If she gets reported out of committee, I'd have to have members. Members that vote most of the time. Kara, I've said on noms, I'm going to defer. If you get an anonymous body, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Right. If you get one. And I talked to members who were probably on the fence. I said, look, if you on some of these nominees vote no, I'll be there to back you up, but I'm not going to be the lone person in these cases where I'm deferring to members on the committee of jurisdiction. And now in this case, the NOM hasn't moved forward. So that suggests to me there may be some concerns on the committee.
- [33:43]
Kara Swisher
You said the resume puts you on a alert.
- [33:45]
Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah, she, she did not impress in the hearing.
- [33:48]
Kara Swisher
I know.
- [33:49]
Senator Thom Tillis
And the resume did not, you know, did not look like the kinds of resumes we've seen before in terms of surgeon generals from either side of the aisle.
- [33:59]
Kara Swisher
So you think done. Where is it going to go?
- [34:02]
Senator Thom Tillis
You know, I think if we're, what are we three weeks past the nomination hearing and we're about to go on recess, Generally speaking, anytime a major NOM like this is in committee for more than a month or six weeks, it probably means ultimately they get withdrawn. But we'll see.
- [34:17]
Kara Swisher
We'll see. So let's move on very quickly because I know we have limited time right now. You're one of the few Republicans willing to challenge the administration, getting a lot of praise for that. Your critics call you too late. Tom, do you know that I couldn't
- [34:28]
Senator Thom Tillis
care less about my critics? I know for number one, you know what the problem about either the liberals most of the time, that's the liberals that just want to attack any conservative, even a right of center conservative. Like.
- [34:42]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, because conservatives never do that these days.
- [34:44]
Senator Thom Tillis
But ahead, there's equal amount of dumbness at either end of the political spectrum. I'll stipulate that.
- [34:50]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [34:51]
Senator Thom Tillis
But the reality is too late, Tom. My God, six months into my freshman term as a brand new state legislator, I broke with the Republican conference to negotiate the first ever renewable portfolio standard in the Southeast. These folks should stop. They're either lazy or they're dumb or they're both. They ought to look at my record.
- [35:16]
Kara Swisher
And they're like, why doesn't he been like this?
- [35:18]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, but I'm saying, John McKenna, I
- [35:21]
Kara Swisher
think they're saying, why aren't you, John? I think that's a compliment. So you are liberated from the pressures of running for reelection. Do you feel that way or what?
- [35:29]
Senator Thom Tillis
Like I've said, I've been, look, I got in a dust up with Trump, won over filing a bill that could only allow him to fire Mueller over for costs. So it's not like this is new, but like I've said time and time again, I forget who the talking head is on, but I think he consistently wears a plaid jacket. I need to know his name. But he almost always prefaces a comment that I make about, well, of course he's retiring.
- [35:55]
Kara Swisher
Why?
- [35:55]
Senator Thom Tillis
Why is that even relevant? Because the reality.
- [35:57]
Kara Swisher
Well, I might feel a little more free.
- [35:59]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, no, but, but the point is I would. I have expressed my concern in the past. I no longer have to worry about what language I use to communicate it because I don't have to go through the cost benefit.
- [36:12]
Kara Swisher
You can be clearer than some of your colleagues because I have to tell you, when I talk to some of your colleagues, off the record, the Repub, they're much more critical of Trump.
- [36:19]
Senator Thom Tillis
Of course. But look, I mean, you know what all martyrs have in common?
- [36:22]
Kara Swisher
What?
- [36:22]
Senator Thom Tillis
They're dead. And in politics that's losing elections. I have no problem with people who are running for reelection or managing the complexities of their state to pull back. I believe that they would be there if things became existential. But it's silly. That's what I'm saying. To this talking head dude. It's like, of course I don't have to go through that cost benefit analysis. I don't have to wonder if I say it this way or in one sent. Am I now going to have to raise 10 million more dollars and buy that many more gross rating points to explain what I meant. So it's not that I wouldn't say what I'm saying has been consistent since I was a freshman in the state House. How I'm saying it is different because I don't have that cost benefit analysis.
- [37:06]
Kara Swisher
To be fair, a lot of speaking of martyrs, Republicans criticizing Trump on their way out the door has become a theme. It has. I mean you had former senators Ben Sasse, Mitt Romney, Jeff Flake, former House Speaker Paul Ryan, Congressman Lee, Liz Cheney,
- [37:19]
Senator Thom Tillis
Marjorie Taylor Greene, you know, they all common.
- [37:21]
Kara Swisher
And Congressman Don Bacon, do you know
- [37:24]
Senator Thom Tillis
what they all have in common? Yeah, that they've criticized the President and I've never criticized the president.
- [37:30]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I wanted to ask about that
- [37:31]
Senator Thom Tillis
because look, I mean all these people.
- [37:33]
Kara Swisher
Can I just point that that was really interesting when we met you, you, you aim it mainly at the administration and advisors and not himself. And you've repeatedly said you think he's getting bad advice though as a former business person at blue chip corporations, you, you've been around the block, you know, the CEO often is the same center of criticism. So.
- [37:50]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I believe there's some great people, by the way, the majority. One of the things I've done, when I talk to a lot of people in the administration and I feel like I have very good relationships with a number of people in the cabinet and the administration, I say I'll let. They'll know off the record who I'm talking about, but I'm not talking about you. I mean, that's, that's a way of saying I'm, I've got a problem with people. I'm in the unique position of having spent almost more than 25 years in top tier management consulting. You have, and 20 years in legislative politics, including leadership roles, particularly as speaker of the House and turning the state around. So I'm in a unique position to really help or maybe just intuitively look around corners. And I'm expecting people in the White House who are similarly situated to use that experience to warn the President about second and third order effects. And I feel like there's two ways to give the President bad advice. One is coming up with a really lousy idea and selling the President on it. Kind of like Stephen Miller saying, any immigration reform is bad. I think the President would like to do immigration reform. I believe Stephen Miller is one of the people that are preventing that from happening. Another one is the President comes up with a really bad idea and you don't have the guts to tell them it's a bad idea. And that's what I'm pointing to. I expect more out of these people. The President. What's that?
- [39:14]
Kara Swisher
Not from him.
- [39:15]
Senator Thom Tillis
The President, at the end of the day, needs people that have the courage to let him know what he doesn't know. And then if you start saying, if I start seeing more signals from the White House saying, tom, we did our best, we went to the math, we agree with you, then maybe I've got to start looking at the fact what
- [39:33]
Kara Swisher
happened in the first administration. He seems to be staffing with people who don't do that. You had Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis, Attorney General Bill Barr, Chairman of the.
- [39:41]
Senator Thom Tillis
Mark Miller.
- [39:42]
Kara Swisher
Yes.
- [39:42]
Senator Thom Tillis
Did you watch Spinal Tap back in the day?
- [39:45]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I did.
- [39:45]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I said the SEC DEFs were like the drummer and Spinal Tap, they kind of blew up after every major performance. So, yeah, I get that. But maybe that's why some people are holding back. But you can hold back. And the reason why I would suggest that they do it, if for no other reason, their own personal reputation. One of the reasons why I like Warsh as the future Fed Chair is I think his reputation and the work that he has done is more important to him than any sort of alignment with the President. I don't believe he'll be a sycophant.
- [40:18]
Kara Swisher
There are too many sycophants in the White House.
- [40:20]
Senator Thom Tillis
I do believe we have some folks that gosh boss that's a great idea and you know in their heart of hearts it's not. You're being dishonest to the president when you know in your heart and in your mind it's not a good idea and you say great idea boss, you're being dishonest to the president and you're being dishonest. You know who doesn't like, I mean I don't really like self affirming stuff but.
- [40:42]
Kara Swisher
No, I like the opposite.
- [40:43]
Senator Thom Tillis
But I do too. I like my. You'll go into my office sometimes and you'll hear yelling behind my doors and half the time it's the staff yelling at me. That's the sort of stuff that I reward. I want people to stretch me and grow me and inform me and the president needs people that are going to stretch him, grow him and inform him and if not, walk out. Guys, life is good on the outside. If you have any kind of experience, you should be able to get a job pretty easy.
- [41:11]
Kara Swisher
Different selections of staff.
- [41:13]
Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah, I know it. I'm just saying they're letting the president it down and they're diminishing what could otherwise be a strong legacy if they don't get their act together and there are political consequences. The thing we have to talk about right now, we're not doing too well. And what would typically be a negative election I think is far more so because we're not executing I'm going to
- [41:35]
Kara Swisher
get in them because if saying he's getting bad advice makes him a passive bystander, he doesn't seem to be that. But episode we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from longtime Washington defense attorney Abby Lowell who's represented people in the Trump family and also obviously Trisha James and many others. Don Lemon, let's listen to it.
- [41:52]
Expert Questioner Abby Lowell
Senator Dillis, so good to talk with you. I have this question. You've been one of the very few Republicans to have pushed back on President Trump or folks in his administration on almost any issue. The founders entire premise was that there would be three co equal branches of government to check the power of the other branch. Has Congress abdicated its role? Role when the majority in Congress and the president are of the same party. And will this check and balance only be able to occur when there is the so called divided government? And lastly, since you have decided to leave this very important role, who will you hope or who will you ask to play the role you have played over this last year in the future?
- [42:42]
Kara Swisher
Great question.
- [42:43]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well let's start with the foundational question. I've been here when Washington was completely controlled by Democrats. I saw the same behavior let's not pretend like questioning the president is this or failing to question the president is this new thing under Trump I saw it under Biden, I saw it under Obama. So let's be real. In fact back I think it was when we either passed the Respect for Marriage or Safer Communities Act. I had a couple of Democrats come up to me and high five me said thank you for being bipartisan. I said I appreciate that. I'm looking forward to you doing that someday. And they go well we did. We voted on the bill. I said my God, you had 50 member, 51 of your members vote on the bill. That's not a tough vote for you. And so I would ask people to show me an example of somebody who was a Thom Tillis in the Biden administration on the Democrats side.
- [43:38]
Kara Swisher
Who are you? Your party we're talking about.
- [43:40]
Senator Thom Tillis
So yeah, I know. I just want to make it clear there are so many people that their memories only happen to be mansion as recent as the election Manchin you had Cinema and they're gone because the Democratic Party turned their back on them and tried to replace them. You're leaving Kirsten Cinema was absolutely recruited the Democrats recruited to go against her.
- [44:00]
Kara Swisher
So betterment what in the world.
- [44:02]
Senator Thom Tillis
I'm just saying that Republican now he is welcome to the party. But. But I'm just saying look it exists in every camp and the ones did it who actually Kirsten wanted to continue her career was rewarded by having a primary Rantagon street.
- [44:18]
Kara Swisher
She's got a whole lot of other problems. But any case.
- [44:20]
Senator Thom Tillis
But all I'm saying is everybody needs to look in the mirror when they ask this question. It's not a Republican phenomenon. It's a bipartisan phenomenon.
- [44:28]
Kara Swisher
Is it better to have a divided government with Congress in a different if
- [44:31]
Senator Thom Tillis
you have the right leadership I could see where I think that the Article 1 branch is safest when you have divided government.
- [44:39]
Kara Swisher
And who would you think is going to take up your sword?
- [44:44]
Senator Thom Tillis
I guess I don't know. There's people out there that are independent. I think a lot of it will come down. You know, the states matter. You know, you're more likely, you know, in this election cycle we're at risk of maybe losing some of the more moderate states. So it's going to be less likely. It comes from the usual suspects. I represent the people. I represent the north people of North Carolina. People ask me what I love North Carolina. The reason I've lived in it since 1998. I love it. But I also love the politics of North Carolina, where 40% of the people are independent, they're not affiliated with either party, and then the remainder are evenly divided. So when people ask me, you know, are you? I said, look at my state, look at my positions, and plus or minus 10% is in complete alignment with the priorities of the people of North Carolina.
- [45:30]
Kara Swisher
So is there anybody in Congress I know you consider very independent in the gop?
- [45:34]
Senator Thom Tillis
I think, you know, I think you're looking, I don't want to name names because then you put targets on, on them and, and, you know, force, you know, people go around and attack them. But there are four or five members that I think given the right situation, will be doing the very same kinds of things that I'm doing today.
- [45:57]
Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
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- [48:20]
Kara Swisher
So let's talk about where the Republican Party is headed in a few years. You've said you're not trying to undermine their presence with your criticism of the administration.
- [48:25]
Senator Thom Tillis
I'm trying to get more Republicans elected in November.
- [48:27]
Kara Swisher
Exactly. A new Fox News pol, and I'm using Fox specifically shows Trump's approval rating dropping to 41%. Others are even lower. Yeah, there's also sort of a growing problem of extremism with some young voters. The Washington Post had a great story today. After the assassination of Charlie Kirk, white supremacists like Nick Fuentes increasingly seem to be filling the vacuum. Now Democrats have problems too. But let's talk about the radicalization of the young right. And what are the key things in this election coming up are you most worried about?
- [48:57]
Senator Thom Tillis
To be honest with you, I hear that, but I. I don't think that the young right described in the way that you did is any greater than the young left. Matter of fact, I had a young lady who had to be a part of the young left try to get me a gotcha question on the way out the door. Now you're talking to somebody who, as speaker passed the first only restitution for forced sterilization victims that was invariably imposed against black people. I come up here, I write 137 year wrong with the Lumbee nation. I get them recognized.
- [49:32]
Kara Swisher
You're a complex man, is what you say.
- [49:34]
Senator Thom Tillis
All the way through Jim Crow, et cetera. But I have this young extreme equivalent to what you're talking about. The radical right asking me some nonsense question, trying to paint what she had perceived, I guess, as he's a white Republican, so he must be a racist.
- [49:47]
Kara Swisher
Not good branding. Nick Fuentes popularity is not good branding for you. Neither is.
- [49:52]
Senator Thom Tillis
No, no, what I'm saying though is I think we need to just be clear that we're probably in equal ratios of the radicalized, if we want to call it young or what, said that the people who are in the left or right of center of politics that are registered are independent voters do not like chaos, they do not like bullies, and they do not like the kind of elevated language that we have today. And you know, it was in 2009, I was convinced that the bullying and the pen and the phone and getting Obamacare in spite of Republican vote. I was convinced when Time magazine was saying this is the end of conservatives, the beginning of liberal progressivism, to quit my job because I believed that the Obama administration was going to overreach and that I was going to get as a majority and probably become speaker of the House. That happened, and it happened when everybody thought that they were riding the wave. We're almost guilty of doing the same thing. We read more into the election results than we should have. We're driving down a mandate that our base loves and much, a lot of it. I agree with the what. I have problems with the how, but it has alienated independent voters.
- [51:13]
Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
It has, all right.
- [51:14]
Senator Thom Tillis
And independent voters. The only way you win statewide elections in North Carolina.
- [51:17]
Kara Swisher
So you're worried mostly about the independent voters.
- [51:19]
Senator Thom Tillis
I'm very worried about the independent voter, and I'm worried about the suburban voters, the right and left of center. You know, in my race, I got about 10% of the Democrat vote in both of my two elects. I think now you'd be lucky to get 1 or 2% of the Democrat vote.
- [51:33]
Kara Swisher
Well, you're seeing all these elections.
- [51:34]
Senator Thom Tillis
They're going, yeah, oh, yeah. And I mean, it fills 2010.
- [51:40]
Kara Swisher
So in that regard, we have two more questions. We have a second expert question for you comes from one of our listeners who happens to be one of your constituents.
- [51:47]
Listener Bob Thomason
My name is Bob Thomason. I'm a native of North Carolina and a North Carolina voter. I'm a retired businessman living in Charlotte. My question to the senator has to do with the fact that our country can no longer get things done. And the major reason for that is that our politicians won't work across party lines to make things things happen. It's really gotten embarrassing, quite frankly. Half our population is left behind by our economy. Our infrastructure is failing, including our once admired air traffic control system. And AI is coming and we have no plan. I'm old enough to remember a time when politicians did cross the aisle and work with each other. They even held a rogue president to account. So my question to the senator is what has to happen for our country to get working again and for politicians to work with each other instead of, you know, adopting the my way or the highway approach? We're rapidly losing ground not only to our rivals, but our enemies. I look forward to hearing the senator's response.
- [52:56]
Kara Swisher
That was really thoughtful.
- [52:58]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, it was. And he lives in my neck of the woods in North Carolina. First and foremost, we got to preserve the filibuster that will ruin, that will destroy bipartisanship forever if we do it because the basis of both parties will absolutely vote you out if you give on. So I think first and foremost we need to get the Democratic Party and now the Republican Party as litmus test are asking primary opponents are they for nuking the filibusters. So number one, I don't know what his party affiliation is. Go back back to your Democrat or GOP meetings and say this is nonsense. And then I think be a part of an organization that remembers the people that produce bipartisan results and reward them and go after the ones who are actually making it almost impossible to get done. But Kara, I'll tell you, you're a smart person. You do your research, you go back and find time. And in the Biden administration I was one of the leads on respect for marriage, bipartisan Safer Communities Act. I was the sixth person to join the discussions to the gentleman's point about the bipartisan infrastructure bill. You go find a time where Democrats passed that many bills of that substance when the roles were reversed and they had to walk the so called plank to add to to Republicans to do it. So a part of it, again, I don't know his party affiliation, a part of it is going back and saying can you at least do what the Republicans did in the Biden administration, Democrats, when the roles are reversed, can we start telling everybody that compromise is good, good can come out of it.
- [54:47]
Kara Swisher
Well, the language and the words than that, right?
- [54:50]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I agree. And so was the, so was the language. You know, frankly even I mentioned this with bottom the reason, you know, these were historic bills, these bipartisan bills. You know why I didn't go to the White House for the signing ceremony, particularly for the two that we led on, is because I was always wondering if I did there would be some partisan statement at the signing ceremony. And in all three cases there were a Democrat president instead of faking everybody for bipartisanship and moving on and then maybe saving that comment for a party rally. He says it when he has Republicans present taking on political
- [55:29]
Kara Swisher
Trump made nine of those today, for example, the county. So what this guy is saying, I don't really care what's going to bring it back.
- [55:35]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, I think independents voters rewarding independent members is how you get back. So get independent voters could do this country a great service by saying, you know what? I'm going to set aside some of my ideological priorities for a while and reward behavior. Just say, because if you have enough people thinking independently, then if you're extreme right or extreme left, this isn't for you. Don't waste your time. But for the remainder of the majority of the country, you'll see things that'll swim left and right of center that will be done on a more consistent bipartisan basis.
- [56:14]
Kara Swisher
I mean, I know you're worried about these elections. They're going to swim the other way.
- [56:18]
Senator Thom Tillis
I think look for this Congress, any sort of major bipartisan bills or are all but probably impossible to get done function of time for one thing, you know, after June, I mean, it's going to be all about the campaign.
- [56:32]
Kara Swisher
So what are you most concerned about with the midterms coming up?
- [56:35]
Senator Thom Tillis
I am concerned as a Republican, and I became concerned. That's why I voiced my concern. Now the Senate's in play now, I believe. I think we're going to be okay with the Senate, you know, as long as we continue to support our incumbents. But I believe that we could net a loss. I don't think this is a year where any reasonable expectation of gaining numbers exist, but I'm going down and going to work in the trenches with the state legislatures. I think one of the things is beginning to be reported as very important are the number of state legislatures across the country that many of them gained a majority back in the same timeframe that I became speaker. Starting to look at their suburban districts, ones which with either right of Senate Republicans, independents that are at risk.
- [57:24]
Kara Swisher
Palm beach just shifted.
- [57:25]
Senator Thom Tillis
That's exactly right. So I'm going down in the reddest flag.
- [57:29]
Kara Swisher
What is the reddest flag right now for you in this?
- [57:31]
Senator Thom Tillis
For the Republicans, the. Basically the evaporation of independent support. The only independents that are supporting us right now are the ones who are right of the most extreme MAGA movement. They're the only ones that'll support us because they got nowhere to go. But that's a fraction of fraction of the independent base for the most part. 80, 85% of the independent bases. They're either going to stay at home or they're going to vote for what they consider to be.
- [57:56]
Kara Swisher
It looks like they're voting. They're voting like in Mar a Lago.
- [57:59]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, you got voter intensity, too. Democrat voter intensity is through the roof. You had 125,000 more Democrats vote in the primary than Republicans. Roy Cooper got 125,000.
- [58:09]
Kara Swisher
Looks like he's quite ahead.
- [58:10]
Senator Thom Tillis
He got 125,000 more votes than all Republicans in that Republican primary. We got to get our folks enthusiastic and we also have to get a fair share of the independence.
- [58:19]
Kara Swisher
Cooper's very popular right now in North Carolina. He may be replacing.
- [58:22]
Senator Thom Tillis
I know Roy, I'd have a non alcoholic beer with him, but I'm not gonna vote for him. Okay, I tell Roy that.
- [58:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I think he knows. Last question. When you think about what happens post Trump, would you come back to politics? Would you? And what are you gonna do next? What is your business person? What do you think your best contribution is?
- [58:45]
Senator Thom Tillis
You know what? One thing that I want to do is really take a look at an organization that like the gentleman in the question could come to and say if you're serious about supporting people and encouraging bipartisan behavior, then there needs to be an organization that provides the air cover for the people that do that. Everybody high fives. Signing ceremony is like, oh, sucks for you. You're to going got a primary. There needs to be an organization in place that rewards behavior, not specific legislative outcomes. There also needs to be an organization that goes after the far left and the far right for being the antithesis of that behavior. So that's going to be an unpaid project. I don't want to make any money. I'm not going to be a registered lobbyist. I don't want to make any money.
- [59:33]
Kara Swisher
You're just going to call Joe Manchin
- [59:35]
Senator Thom Tillis
and the two of you are going political operations. But you know, I had an equal amount of time at Pricewaterhouse. PricewaterhouseCoopers and I'd be in and technology media and entertainment, telecommunications, banking and utilities. So I'm probably going to go and technology AI is interesting me, I know that's an area of interest for you. I think that that industry is going to need some help to really maintain our innovation advantage that we have today. And that's an area where short of lobbying, I think we can get the industry to provide an answer to a lot of of the questions about governance and just making sure that we keep the US Ahead of all other.
- [60:23]
Kara Swisher
The pacing threat had a worse reputation in the technology industry. Let me ask you the last question. You go into the technology industry, what do you do for them? Well, the first thing, because they look like villains.
- [60:34]
Senator Thom Tillis
I know. Well, the first thing you do for them is say guys, you gotta get your act together on all of your platforms with respect to child safety and to other kind of bad outcomes. That are being well documented. This is a great week to have this discussion because you've seen the judgments. You've got to make this a safe place. I have no problem incidentally with having significant Australia like controls on people under 16 using the Internet.
- [61:06]
Kara Swisher
Me neither.
- [61:06]
Senator Thom Tillis
Unless it has.
- [61:07]
Kara Swisher
We agree.
- [61:08]
Senator Thom Tillis
Yeah. It has to have some sort of qualification process for a child to get online. Then you got to go beyond that. My goodness. Even if I heard on judiciary committee years ago. Well, it's so hard to do the. You can't tell me it's hard. Now it's a matter of margins and will and you need to plow some of the margins back into getting this right because if you don't then it's going to slow down our tech sector. I want my tech sector to survive and thrive.
- [61:39]
Kara Swisher
I want them to outpace moment.
- [61:41]
Senator Thom Tillis
No, because they're going to be around. I think that the difference with the cigarette company, the cigarette company moment is recognizing it's going to be the end of an industry. Except for the fact that the tobacco plant has a lot of other scientific uses, fortunately. But no, they're going to be around. The question is who the 800 pound gorillas are going to be. I want them to be US based tech firms but operating in a way that is safe for children, that's safe for business and addresses many of the malign uses of their plat forms as possible. Because there's a political look, we got to get our act together because state actors and now any terrorist organization now it used to be you had to be a nation state to have the kind of scale to be disruptive in any other society. Hell, now all you need is a smart dude with a computer or woman and that's a frightening prospect. And so they have to get it under control. They have enjoyed great success. I'm glad they've returned value to the shareholders. Their shareholders should all also know that they want to be aligned with companies that are responsible and addressing some of the negative outcomes that but for these platforms would have never existed.
- [62:53]
Kara Swisher
So you're going into AI of course you are.
- [63:00]
Senator Thom Tillis
I don't know what I'm going to do. One thing I am going to do is spend more time with my wife and spend more time with my grandchildren. But I'm 65. I think I'll probably. I do have to ask you why is it that you want to to live forever?
- [63:13]
Kara Swisher
You'll have to find out. You'll have to watch it. I don't. It's a joke. It's a joke. I don't want to live forever. There's incredible. Speaking of AI and there's so much incredible scientific progress happening, and it's being hindered by a lot of narcissism and not focused on everybody, just the very wealthy. And so I want to separate the charlatanism from what's real, because we can solve cancer, we can solve all manner of things, and North Carolina, obviously would, in fact, be one of the bigger centers for it.
- [63:43]
Senator Thom Tillis
I'm. I am. I'm watching right now. I probably shouldn't admit this on tv, but I'm watching the Heated rivalry. No Fall Fallout. Have you seen that series?
- [63:51]
Kara Swisher
No. No.
- [63:51]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, it's a really distorted outcome if we don't get this.
- [63:55]
Kara Swisher
Is this a nuclear war thing.
- [63:57]
Senator Thom Tillis
Well, you know, it's premised on the game Fallout.
- [64:00]
Kara Swisher
I know, but I watch Happy Gay.
- [64:01]
Senator Thom Tillis
I only watch Dark. See, my wife says I go feral when I'm up here. I watch all the dark stuff here, and I watch the happy stuff at home.
- [64:07]
Kara Swisher
All right, okay.
- [64:09]
Senator Thom Tillis
But really, you should almost watch it. You will hate it, but you could watch it if, you know, because you talk about life extension and only certain people having privilege in the future. I could easily. I hadn't thought about it until you made the comment, but I could easily see where you go. Yep, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
- [64:25]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I think you'll like it a lot. I'm sorry, I did ask you one question. You didn't answer. What does the party look like after Trump?
- [64:31]
Senator Thom Tillis
I think the party will settle back in, like, every time it. Somebody probably asked that question during the Gilded Age. You know, somebody asked it during other periods of populism. So I think that we go through the ebb and flow. I mean, some people probably ask that after Democrats got hammered in 2010, what does the future of the Democratic Party look like? So we go through these things. I mean, these are. It's going to depend on who steps up as a leader. If people double down on another phase of pop, if we get hit, if we double down on something that deals as a loss in November, whoever is suggesting that should by no means be the next nominee for President of the United States for the Republican Party. You gotta learn. I mean, if we lose in large numbers beyond what the historic average would be for a midterm election after a presidential, then I want a leader that's instructed by that. And if they're not instructed by that, it's not like I'm going to go change my registration and vote for a Democrat, but I'll work on everything I can to get the kind of person that I think, God forbid you do. That will turn the rudder. Yeah.
- [65:43]
Kara Swisher
So would you run for president?
- [65:44]
Senator Thom Tillis
No. Not under any circumstances.
- [65:46]
Kara Swisher
No circumstances.
- [65:47]
Senator Thom Tillis
I've never wanted a public job. I actually deferred on having a security detail when I was speaker because I actually thought it was silly. I never want a job that requires a security detail.
- [65:58]
Kara Swisher
All right.
- [65:59]
Senator Thom Tillis
Because it robs my privacy and I'm a very private. Rather be in the woods than being an office person.
- [66:04]
Kara Swisher
All right, then. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
- [66:07]
Senator Thom Tillis
Thank you.
- [66:13]
Podcast Narrator/Host Introduction
Today's show was produced by Christian Castor Roselle, Michelle Eloy, Catherine Milsop, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademic. If you're already following the show, you're just in time, Tillis. If not, you're too late. Tom, go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.