Liz Stein (3:00)

foreign.

Kara Swisher (3:06)

This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Each week, hosts Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist, and Colin Martin, head of fixed income research and strategy for the Schwab center for Financial Research, bring you fresh insights on what's happening in the market and why and what the implications might be for your portfolio. Join Colin and Liz Ann as they explore questions like how do you evaluate corporate bonds that look interesting? And what sectors are on the move right now? Download the latest episode and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.

Jess Michaels (3:46)

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Kara Swisher (4:15)

The minimalist aesthetic is having a moment and for some, it's a form of resistance.

Jess Michaels (4:21)

I think a lot of people have

Danielle Bensky (4:22)

a sense that, like, we live in

Jess Michaels (4:24)

this very consumerist society and feel kind of a desire, a need to, like, push back. How to live with Les that's this

Kara Swisher (4:31)

week on Explain it to Me. New episodes Sundays. Wherever you get your podcasts, It is on. Dani, Jess and Liz, thank you so much for coming on on.

Danielle Bensky (4:47)

Thank you for having us.

Jess Michaels (4:48)

Thank you so much for having us.

Liz Stein (4:49)

Thanks for having us.

Kara Swisher (4:50)

To start, can each of you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, how you ended up in Epstein's orbit, and how old you were at the time. Just tell your story, essentially. First Jess, then Liz, then Danny.

Jess Michaels (5:02)

My name is Jess Michaels and I'm a 1991 Jeffrey Epstein Survivor. I was 22 years old when he raped me. I'm the earliest publicly known survivor that's out there advocating, but I'm not the earliest survivor.

Kara Swisher (5:15)

Okay, and what do you. What do you do now? What do you do in your life today?

Jess Michaels (5:19)

Thank you for asking. I've actually created Sexual Assault first aid and I have put it into an app called the with youh to app. And it teaches young people to know what to do when someone's says, me too.

Kara Swisher (5:31)

Okay. All right, next, Liz.

Liz Stein (5:33)

My name is Liz stein. I was 21 years old in 1994 and a senior in college when I met Jeffrey Epstein and Ghis Maxwell. I am now a human trafficking specialist and a survivor advocate in the national anti trafficking movement.

Kara Swisher (5:50)

Oh, great. Okay, Dani.

Danielle Bensky (5:52)

Yeah, So I was 17 years old in 2004, and I was with in Jeffreys orbit 2004 to 2005. And I was a ballerina then. Now I am a dance educator and a choreographer, and I work for Disney Theatrical Group. And I work a lot with kids. Age ranges between 15 and 19, but, like, the sweet spot is really 17 and 19. So around the time that I was abused by Jeffrey as well.

Kara Swisher (6:21)

Let's talk a little bit first about what compelled you not just to come forward with your stories of abuse, but also to do so publicly. I've covered this issue many times in different ways in Silicon Valley and elsewhere with powerful men. But what compelled each of you to come forward and again publicly is a big move by women. I know this. Let's start with Jess, then Liz, then Dani.

Jess Michaels (6:41)

Yeah. Back in 2018, when I read Julie K. Brown's article, the Perversion of Justice, it was the first time I saw his face in 27 years. It was the first time I realized that I wasn't the only one, because all that time, I thought he had only ever raped me. When I heard those first four women come out, Virginia, Courtney, Shantae and Michelle, it was life changing for me. And at the time, I was actually working for one of the Sandy Hook foundations, and I was teaching young people to stand up for other people in circumstances where they couldn't stand up for themselves. And there came a point where I couldn't continue to teach young people this if I wasn't willing to do it myself in my own circumstance. So that's what led me to start. Start speaking out. And obviously, we had a wonderful example with Virginia Roberts Giuffre. And when I saw her being able to do that, I believed it was possible.

Kara Swisher (7:42)

So it was just seeing that story and understanding you weren't alone. Right?

Jess Michaels (7:46)

Obviously understanding, because we always think we're alone. That's a big.

Kara Swisher (7:49)

That's the whole point.

Jess Michaels (7:50)

The whole point is the silence and the isolation.

Kara Swisher (7:54)

Liz.

Liz Stein (7:55)

So when I met Epstein and Maxwell, I looked like I had a really bright future ahead of me. And after meeting them, the trajectory of my life completely changed. And it looked nothing like what I had expected. And so for decades, I lived with this enormous amount of shame and guilt and kind of this failure to thrive and feeling like I didn't exactly fit in with my peers. And that was a big burden to carry. And so when Epstein was arrested, is

Kara Swisher (8:27)

that because of shame or that? Obviously, the abuse itself, but what. What led to you feeling that way?

Liz Stein (8:34)

I think that the way that we view survivors, it's detrimental to survivors. We don't necessarily know what we're looking at when we see survivors of sexual assault. The way that this manifests in women's lives is through, you know, interpersonal relationship difficulties. A lot of times you see substance abuse issues. You see really just people who are not able to thrive like others. And a lot of times we look at these women and we stigmatize them, and we say, you know, well, what's wrong with her? Why can't she do this? Or why isn't she performing the way that we expect her to? And so the guilt is put on the survivor of the crime. And it's not. We're not looking at, well, why is her behavior like this? Why did someone. In my case, at least, why did someone who had such a bright, promising future, someone who was so good with people, how did that person turn into someone who was in and out of behavioral health hospitals, in and out of therapy, unable to hold a job, unable to have interpersonal relationships? And it was trauma. And I will tell you that I really lived with that for a long time until someone looked at me and said, you're not crazy. You have trauma. When that happened, it was treatable, right?

Kara Swisher (10:07)

And you were able to speak out.

Liz Stein (10:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher (10:10)

Because a lot of people, when they're in situations like this, it's always like, why can't you get over it?

Liz Stein (10:14)

It's the identification of what the problem is. You know, doctors were saying, you have this, you have that. Nothing ever seemed to fit. No one said, you trauma until, you know, 20 years ago. And when that happened, when someone tried to understand what was going on with me instead of labeling me with different diagnoses, that was when healing began.

Kara Swisher (10:39)

Right, Dani?

Danielle Bensky (10:41)

The PTSD is absolutely real. It's so well said, Liz. For me, coming forward, it was, you know, I teach kids, I teach dancers. And I was working at a private school, a prep school in Brooklyn, and I was listening to a group of dancers talk about parties that they had been to, and there was a mansion that one of them had gone to, and nothing. Nothing happened, thank goodness. But just hearing them talk, I just realized that the world needs to be a much safer place for these kids because, you know, things like this are still happening, and if we don't get to the core of it, and we don't, you know, the powerful people that are in positions of power are going to stay there unless we do something about it, you know. So I think that that was just something that felt like we need to make sure that the right people are in those positions of power.

Liz Stein (11:37)

Right.

Kara Swisher (11:38)

Did you think about the repercussion, the price on yourself that it would cost?

Danielle Bensky (11:43)

Well, when I came forward, it was 20, 21, and I had no intention of coming forward. Actually. I had gone to the courthouse for Ghislaine Maxwell's hearing, really, just to thank my lawyer, Sigrid McAuley. Never met her in person. And we had always, you know, it was during the pandemic, and so we had always talked over zoom, but I really wanted to just, like, have that face to face connection and interaction with her. And so I had gone to the courthouse that day, you know, and. And as I was standing in a hallway talking to her, she talked to me about community. And I had said that, you know, I watched the Jeffrey Epstein Filthy Rich, and I had seen Maria Farmer's story, and I remember feeling like, wow, if she have been victimized, I could be victimized too. And I was able to sit with it differently because she was an artist and she was, you know, so talented. And I felt like, wow, that level, like, she talked a little bit about disassociation and about how, like, it changed the way she created art. And I saw myself in that. So I talked to Sigrid for a moment about that, and then we talked about Virginia Giuffre and, you know, just really seeing myself in Virginia and thinking about how she turned this shame into power. And I felt to myself, like, wow, I hope that I could be brave enough to do that one day, you know. And so we left the courthouse, media everywhere, and I was, you know, I was masked because we were just off of the pandemic and everybody's screaming, Virginia, Virginia, Virginia. Because I'm blonde, right? And so I was walking out and she had said, no, you know, this isn't Virginia. But they said, do you want to give a statement? And they were like, you know, are you an Epstein survivor? I said, yes. So I gave my first statement, but they didn't know my name. And so then they followed us for blocks. I mean, just like people falling into the street was like nothing I'd ever experienced. Until finally I just. I felt this Immense responsibility to other survivors to say my name. And I did, and then nothing for quite some time. And then all of this came up again, really, this July. And so, yeah, I think there is a price to being public about all of this, but there are Jane does that I know that can't come forward. And I feel like it is our duty in a way. Like, it just feels like there's this big responsibility to keep. To keep making change.

Kara Swisher (14:10)

Absolutely. Jessalynn, what is the price each of you have paid? I'm curious.

Jess Michaels (14:16)

So, for me, living with post traumatic stress disorder now going on 35 years, I had severe physical debilitation. When your body lives in survival mode for a very long time, the nervous system affects every single system, your digestion, your immune system, your cardiovascular system, your endocrine system, to a point where I was bedridden for two years, physically incapacitated. And it was actually that article in 2018. That's one of the things that kind of joke around, like, raised me from the dead. Like, I actually found some hope in there and found a great doctor. But what happens for me is that my capacity is really limited when I'm doing these. So much media. And I wouldn't change it. I want to be really clear. There's nothing I would change about what I'm doing, what we are doing together, and the voice that is now happening collectively around this issue. And sometimes I am stuck in bed for days.

Kara Swisher (15:17)

Yeah, it definitely takes it out of you. What about you, Liz?

Liz Stein (15:20)

I would agree with all the things that Jess just described. You know, it's two sides of the coin for me. There's a great physical and emotional cost to me. Absolutely. You know, there are days when we're just in bed and that's it.

Kara Swisher (15:35)

It.

Liz Stein (15:35)

But the reason that I'm doing this is because I couldn't talk about this. I couldn't talk about this for so long. I. I am also, like many other survivors, a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. And it was just, for me, decades and decades and decades of not being able to talk about it, to speak about it. And we are in this position of visibility, and we would be remiss if we did not use it to change the narrative and to do. And so for me, you know, the cost of this is worth it. If I am able to change the narrative for even just one person who is experiencing this. If I can open someone's eyes as to what they're looking at, really, I just. I'm going to go back to what I was talking about earlier. If People understood that what was going on with me was trauma. My life would have looked very differently. And so that's why education is so important.

Kara Swisher (16:39)

All right, Danny.

Danielle Bensky (16:40)

Yeah. I mean, I think the shame was really great for me for a long time. You know, I. At one point, Jeffrey had said to me, I turned 18 while I was there, right? So I was between 17 and 18. And so when I turned 18, he had said to me, well, now you can be brought up on prostitution charges, right? So you better not tell anybody. And I believed him. You know, when he spoke, I believed. And so, you know, that. That sat with me for years of, like, don't say anything, you know? And then in 2008, I was subpoenaed to talk to the FBI, and a friend of mine said, you know, you can't. You can't talk to them because, you know, Jeffrey threatened me and he's going to threaten you, too. So they were like, it's twofold. It's the threats that are real, and then there's the threat, like, that you feel in your body, and that is shame. Right. And it sits in the darkest places. And I just think that, like, having conversations already takes out of the dark, and that's really important. When I think about the teenagers that I work with, I think about, like, if, you know, my friend and I were both there at the same time and yet, and we knew that the other one was going, but we never ever talked about what happened there. And I think that this generation already is bold enough to say, like, hey, this is a bad thing that's happening to me. Is it happening to you, too? And already, then go and tell an adult, right? Because we're having these conversations and we're opening the door so that it isn't

Kara Swisher (18:04)

matters a great deal.

Danielle Bensky (18:05)

Yeah, but I mean, it doesn't. It's not to say that I still have, you know, I have nightmares regularly. And since I've been doing this work, I, like, walk the halls of the house in my sleep. Like, my partner turned around and was like, are you okay? You're twitching and your eyes are going crazy, fluttering. Because it just lives in this place psychologically that, you know, when you start tapping back into it, it's very real.

Kara Swisher (18:26)

Yeah, you're definitely paying a price. This is not even close. I don't know if you know this. I testified against the sexual harasser named John McLaughlin in a trial. And I was 20. It was 20 some years. I was not sexual acts. I was testifying on behalf of someone who was. Who I witnessed and they threatened me and threatened my career, actually. I was just a young reporter. And they said, if you do this, we're gonna get you. And I then went on to use my name, my actual name, not a source said or source who saw it. Cause I felt like it was critically important for people don't believe if they don't have a name attached to it. You know what I mean? Unfortunately. And I remember being warned by, like, your career is gonna be hurt by this powerful man. And I said. And I did run into him later, and he said to me, it was. Everyone stabbed me in the back, and you stabbed me in the front, you know. Cause I went, I was so public and so everything. And I was in my 20s. And I said, anytime, you son of a bitch. And it was great, I have to say. And it didn't have a price. I mean, the price was a good one. It was worth it. And it was nothing like what you've been through, obviously.

Jess Michaels (19:29)

Yeah. And I love what you just said. It was worth it. Like when I expressed to you that at 22, you know, you're launching out into the world, you're still looking to adults to mentor you and to really find your way and to succeed. And when your identity and your sense of self and your voice get shut down at those younger ages, it's really hard to find it again. And so being able to speak now, I find I have a really difficult time shutting up. I have to keep talking and I need to make sure my point is heard. And I. I've even allowed myself the ability. I was like, I'm going to be messy because there's a learning curve to having a voice at 57, you know, 35 years later, and. And that's okay with me.

Kara Swisher (20:20)

We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from Quo. If you're a small business, you can't afford to leave money on the table. One call could be one missed opportunity for growth. Quo spelled Q U O can help you and your team share one business number. Reply faster, and stay on top of every customer conversation so you never miss an opportunity to connect. That's why Quo says they're the smarter way to run your business. Communications KUO is more than a phone system. It's a smart one. Its AI automatically logs calls, creates summaries, and flags next step steps so nothing slips through the cracks. It can even respond after hours, helping you stay responsive and deliver a more personal customer experience. Quo works by allowing your entire team to handle calls and texts from one shared number. No more missed messages or disconnected conversations. Everyone sees the full thread, making replies faster and customers feel genuinely cared for. See why more than 90,000 businesses rely on Quo to stay connected, professional and and consistently reachable? Make this the season where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com kara that's Q-U-O.com kara quo no missed calls, no missed customers. Support for this show comes from Framer if you're a business owner, you know that a website should help your business grow. If updates to your.com feel harder than they should, Framer is the shortcut you've been looking for. Framer is a website builder that can transform your.com from a formality into a tool for growth. They've already helped thousands of businesses from early stage startups to Fortune 500s build better websites faster. Framer is an enterprise grade no code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster. With real time collaboration, a robust CMS with everything you need for great CEO, and advanced analytics that include integrated A B testing, your designers and marketers are empowered to build and maximize your dot com. From day one. Changes to your Framer site go live to the web in seconds with one click without help from engineering. So whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrate your full.com, framer has programs for startups, scale ups and large enterprises that make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible. Learn how you can get more out of your dot from a Framer specialist. Start building for free today@framer.com Cara for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com Cara for 30 percent off framer.com Cara rules and restrictions apply. Support for this show comes from Serval AI Having an IT department is fundamental to your business, but if they're being bogged down by password resets, access requests and onboarding, then that department is not being used to their full potential. But with Servol, they say you can cut about 80% of your help desk tickets and that can help free up your team to focus on more meaningful work. Unlike other legacy players, Servol was built for AI agents from the ground up. Servil AI writes automation in seconds, Your IT team just describes what they need in plain English, and Serval generates production ready automation instantly. Plus Servil guarantees 50% help desk automation by week four of your free pilot. But try it now because pilots are limited servl powers. The fastest growing companies in the world like Perplexity, Mercore, Verkada and Clay. Get your team out of the help desk and back to the work they enjoy. Book your free pilot@serval.com Kara that's Servil S E-R-V-A L.com Carolina K A R A let's talk about people who are trying to stop you. Still about the Trump administration's haphazard release of the files. It only did so after Congress forced its hand. There are possibly millions of more files still being withheld. And this week the Department of Justice also acknowledged that tens of thousands of documents have been taken down for review. It says it plans to republish them. Danny and Liz, your names have appeared in the files unredacted. You already shared your stories publicly, but what went through your mind when you, you saw them there?

Danielle Bensky (24:44)

Dani First I mean, for me it was just, it's a gutting feeling that like you start shaking and feeling this reach. It is ptsd, classic ptsd. And what I was feeling was not necessarily even for myself. There was a Jane Doe that was in my 302 and her name was out. And it was somebody that's close to me that I had said like, you know, you never have to worry about this because you've been redacted from the beginning. You've never come from public. Like, you have not.

Kara Swisher (25:15)

Could you explain what a 302 I happen to know because I was with a bunch of lawyers last night. But what's a 302?

Danielle Bensky (25:20)

Yeah. So your 302 is your statement that you gave to the FBI. Right. So in 2008, when I was so scared, I talked to the FBI and I was actually, it's not, you know, I was so scared. And so it's not exactly the most like illuminating piece. But I did mention names, right. And so in that FBI report, there were a couple of names in there that were not redacted. And so we were looking at a scared 20 year olds reporting on something that happened before they were ready to talk about it, to be honest. And then you're adding names in there. And so now that piece is out there for everybody to see. And it just feels really unfair because it was never meant to be public or those people were never meant to

Kara Swisher (26:13)

be part of an investigation.

Danielle Bensky (26:15)

So I just think, yeah, I also my dog was redacted, but my name and my information was not. And so I think that that is like the most classic look of just the sloppiness of it all and just the carelessness of it, because I had my MySpace page and they literally blacked out my dog.

Jess Michaels (26:36)

But then, like.

Kara Swisher (26:36)

Well, your dog didn't need that trauma.

Danielle Bensky (26:38)

No, I'm teasing.

Kara Swisher (26:39)

I'm teasing you. What about you was so.

Liz Stein (26:43)

You know, for me, I was just kind of blown away at the incompetence. My information was unredacted in a sentence that said Stein was a victim of Epstein and Maxwell. So that, you know, that was just kind of mind blowing. But zooming out and looking at the bigger picture, there are a lot of ways that you can threaten and intimidate a survivor, right?

Kara Swisher (27:06)

Yeah.

Liz Stein (27:06)

And it felt like in exposing people's personal information, you see us, and you see us at press conferences and you see us speaking out. And I know that we look really strong. We are really strong. Right. But it takes. It takes a toll on us. And think about these women who for three decades have not been able to really grapple with what happened to them and have kept it inside. And now their friends and family are reading their name, their information. Things that you have said in a deposition, things that you might have said in your 302 that you never, ever expected anyone to hear. The most intimate details of your life are out there for everyone to see. And that's. That's a way to intimidate. That's a way to make. To make it so people don't feel like they are safe coming forward because, you know, everything that you're promised, that you'll be protected just went out the way.

Kara Swisher (28:08)

Yeah, absolutely. Jess, in an interview with the Times of London, you said the release of the document feels, quote, purposefully chaotic, like it's meant to mess with your head. Let me expound on this. As we said, there's millions of files. In some way, chaos was unavoidable. Obviously. Talk about what the Justice Department might have done to release these files in a way that better helps the public understand what's in them and the scope of the crimes.

Jess Michaels (28:29)

Yes. And just to clarify, I'm not a lawyer.

Kara Swisher (28:32)

No.

Jess Michaels (28:32)

But as I understand it, this redaction for a case is a really common and simple skill.

Kara Swisher (28:41)

It is.

Jess Michaels (28:41)

And millions of files being sent from, say, a prosecution or to a defense. Or defense prosecution. When files are shared, a tactic that is used, as I understand it, is to make them as chaotic and send as many files as you can through. So it makes it very difficult for people to go through. So they seemed to be following what. What is typically done when you're trying to thwart an investigation or a trial. And that's really hard to look past as, oh, it was just innocently done.

Kara Swisher (29:19)

There were so many.

Jess Michaels (29:20)

There were so many. And we had such a short period of time. But a couple of things happened. One of the things we've heard from Congress members is when they've gone to look at the redacted files, they found that the supposed unredacted files were redacted by the FBI. And the DOJ never let anyone know and never had those files cleared of redaction. So that they truly were unredacted when Congress wanted to look at them. And that feels purposeful. And so, you know, one of the things we've talked about is that they've miscategorized things and that feels really.

Kara Swisher (29:58)

They're trying to get you to lose. Oh, yeah, that happened during the Japanese internment thing. They put them different places so you couldn't find the files.

Liz Stein (30:06)

Exactly.

Jess Michaels (30:06)

So they didn't make sense. So it was very purposeful in being chaotic. And yeah, that feels like intimidation. That feels like a lack of transparency. That feels corrupt. Like we're really trying to keep this cover up going and delaying transparency as

Kara Swisher (30:24)

long as absolutely possible to create a mess. I'd love to know, how are you able to find documents related to you? I mean, I searched myself and there were two mentions. He'd been reading my articles and in one case, one of a conference I had, we bought a list and he must have been on it. And so he got sent something. Luckily I went back and checked and he tried to get into my conference. Cause he was very up and with the tech people all the time, as you know. And on the thing it says, Kara says absolutely not, like not letting him in. But how did you find yourself? Let's start with you, Danielle and. And then Liz and then Jess.

Danielle Bensky (31:01)

Yeah, for me, I mean, initially I searched my name and then a bunch of stuff came up, which was crazy because I was like, oh, nothing's gonna be here. But of course there was. So there was that. And then once they started redacting, you know, they put everything up and then they took everything down, like, as far as my things related to me went. So I called my lawyer, I said, everything's gone. I don't know where, you know, why it went. I had the EFTA numbers. And she said, well, they're pulling everything down to redact everything now. And it was like little for that. But here we are, we're doing it right.

Kara Swisher (31:33)

Because people could have gotten them.

Danielle Bensky (31:34)

Yeah.

Kara Swisher (31:35)

Which also feels like people instantly downloaded the whole thing. Lots of people did that.

Liz Stein (31:40)

Yes.

Danielle Bensky (31:40)

But also, like, what else are they pulling down? Was this all part of the plan, right, to, like, not redact survivors, to have to be able to pull everything down so that we didn't know what was missing and then put everything back up? Right. And so anyway, when. When I was told that things were coming back online, I knew that there's. There's an ID number. Actually, I don't exactly. I have it written down somewhere, but has like, your. Your number, and then it's like a 0.25 or whatever. Unless you were part of a trial and you gave testimony, and then you have, like, a full number. So somebody that's a legal analyst who actually works for Ms. Now, you know, told me that this was. Was there, and I think I found you. And is this your file? So she gave me that information. So at least I was able to find the majority of my file there.

Kara Swisher (32:27)

And all of them are there, from what you can understand.

Danielle Bensky (32:31)

You know, okay, so I was looking for my 2019. In 2019, the FBI came to my house, and we spoke for hours. It was like, almost two hours. And I remember talking quite a bit about just what had happened, but nobody said, like, can you give an official statement? And they just kept asking me sort of about who I knew and about different names. And I felt like I gave them a lot more information. It's basically one paragraph is written up in 2019, so that does not feel whole to me. So I am still curious if there's more out there. But again with the mislabeling, too. There's a manila envelope with my name on the side of it, and that is not redacted my name. And it has, I believe, my birthday underneath it. And on the front of that manila envelope. It has nothing to do with my story. It's about Florida. Tony Figuera is mentioned in there, which is not my story at all. All. So I'm like, so whose notes are on my file? You know, so there's just mislabeling.

Liz Stein (33:32)

It's a disaster.

Kara Swisher (33:33)

So it's a disaster. It's a chaotic disaster. All right, Liz.

Liz Stein (33:36)

So I also just put in search terms that I thought would bring something up. And I found the information from the Maxwell trial that involved me. And I also found my FBI intake form. That's really all of the information that I found. I. I called the FBI, and the FBI didn't take form on me, but they never contacted me to Do a victim statement. So that's something that, to me, is just really glaring. They have this intake from me saying that I'm a victim of this crime, yet they never followed up with me.

Kara Swisher (34:12)

Followed up. That happens a lot. That happens a lot in general. But in this case, it seems like they dropped the ball a lot. We'll get to that in a minute. What about you, Jack?

Jess Michaels (34:20)

Yes. So the very first file, which was the email between me and especially Amanda Young, was found by a journalist. And the journalist reached out and said, I think this is you. And they were correct. But then the second round of files that were found, someone publicly, and it is public, so, you know, it should be fine. Said, hey, I heard you on a podcast and I think this file is yours, and put the EFTA number public. And so I went, and yes, it was. And then they found other files for me and DM'd me. And they've been the only ones to actually find them. And there's files missing. So it took a year and a half. After I gave my information on the hotline tip In September of 2019, the first response that I got was from Detective Harkins, who had called me back after the hotline tip. I told him what happened, and he. And he said, well, what do you want us to do? It was 30 years ago. And yes, and I said, well, you asked me to call you. That's why I'm calling you, to tell you. And I was calling to tell him about my roommate, who was the person that had brought me to Epstein, because I knew that she had worked for him a minimum of eight to 10 years and obviously would be a person of interest. It would take a year and a half for a Special Agent Amanda Young, to actually ever call me back.

Kara Swisher (35:49)

So it did. So it's both incompetence and possible all manner of things. So all of three of you were at the House Judiciary Committee hearing last month with Attorney General Pam Bondi. I wanna play a little bit from that hearing. And this is an exchange between Bondi and Washington Democratic Representative Pramila Jayapal. Will you turn to them now and apologize for what your Department of Justice has put them through? Through with the UN Absolutely unacceptable release of the Epstein files and their information.

Danielle Bensky (36:25)

Congresswoman, you set.

Jess Michaels (36:27)

Before Merrick Garland sat in this chair twice.

Danielle Bensky (36:31)

Attorney General, I'm gonna finish my answer.

Kara Swisher (36:35)

No, I'm gonna reclaim my time because I asked you. The Attorney General question. Attorney General to answer. Sir, this is the same woman who bragged about having the Epstein client list on her desk about a year ago, even though there's no evidence it exists. What's it been like to watch the Trump administration go from championing the release of these files to this. They campaigned on this issue where Bondi can't even acknowledge you. Talk each of you about that moment. Danny, why don't you start?

Danielle Bensky (37:04)

Yeah, I mean, it's whiplash, but I

Jess Michaels (37:06)

also think the re.

Danielle Bensky (37:07)

Traumatization is so great. It's exactly what Jeffrey did to us. And it's the same pattern, right. Where it always felt like. Like, you know, he would hold the carrot, or at least for my story, he would hold the carrot in front of my nose. Always about, you're a ballet dancer. I know all the top people. I can introduce you to the most powerful people, or I can give you studio space. I can give you anything if you do these things for me. And then would turn around and treat you like trash after that, you know, after. My story includes my mom had a brain tumor and I brought the scans to him. And after that moment that I brought brain scans to him, my abuse really revved up because he had said. He basically threatened me and said that he can help with her care, meaning, like, not paying for anything.

Kara Swisher (37:57)

He had a piece of information he could use.

Danielle Bensky (37:59)

Exactly. He used the information against me. So without going too deep into my backstory, because you can find it out there. But it is that using the information and the manipulation that is involved, you know, it is definitely. It feels like, you know, they had all this information on us, and then it's that the feeling of, like, feeling like a ghost again, Right. Where I would walk through the halls of the house and so many people would see me and I would be there, but I never felt like I was a person.

Kara Swisher (38:30)

I felt like she not turning around was like that. Not even acknowledging.

Danielle Bensky (38:34)

Exactly, exactly like that. I just felt like, you know, that image of just drifting through the house was so similar in the sense of, like, she will not even turn around and acknowledge a survivor's existence. And so just having that inhumane just completely. There's just such a lack, Profound lack of empathy and compassion that it just feels like she's not even a human being.

Kara Swisher (39:01)

Yeah, well, that might be true. Jess.

Jess Michaels (39:04)

Yeah. When you were playing really just hit me in the gut again. I think that sometimes when I'm in those rooms or we're in, you know, the house, I might disconnect a little bit because it's all really overwhelming. But what I still can't get past is that no one was Asking her to apologize for what Merrick Garland did.

Danielle Bensky (39:30)

Yeah.

Jess Michaels (39:31)

No one was asking her to apologize for the damage that her Department of Justice did. And that should be a really simple thing to do, to even acknowledge that we were standing there. It was as if we didn't exist. And that is a. As Dani said, that is just the crux of the injury.

Kara Swisher (39:50)

Liz.

Liz Stein (39:50)

For me, it was really upsetting, you know, as Danny and Jess just expressed, to sit there and for her to not react to us. But I let go of that moment of upset for a moment, and I really just looked at it, and I thought, wow, by her actions, she's telling everyone exactly who she is.

Danielle Bensky (40:13)

She is.

Liz Stein (40:13)

And so, in ways, I think that her reaction couldn't have been better because it was so telling that she could not even be human. And I think that we're seeing over and over and over again where our Department of Justice is. It feels like, to me, Kara, it feels like they are trying to push a narrative despite the fact that it's false. But what we're seeing is that people see through that narrative. And so I think that the more they behave like this publicly, the more people are going to demand that this all come out.

Kara Swisher (40:57)

That's correct. That's exactly what that photo did. I have to say, it had enormous impact. And, you know, her trying not to was so awkward and strange. It happens a lot at these congressional hearings. And a lot of Democrats have promised you investigate the Trump administration over the Epstein files. Obviously politically expedient for them to say they will. And what the Representative Jayapal was doing was a very typical tactic. Right. Turn around and say you're sorry. It happened with Mark Zuckerberg and others around parents whose children had died because of issues around their bullying and things like that. But it's also incredibly effective, as you said. Now, one of the things, Liz, I know you said that she wasn't political, but lawmakers are political creatures. Right. Talk about. Do you think the people that are pushing for this generally care about survivors? Survivors, or is it a political thing? It may be both. It could be with some and not others. I'd love each of you to sort of weigh in. Danielle, why don't you start? Yeah.

Danielle Bensky (41:51)

I think it varies by person. I think we're having great conversations, you know, and I think a lot of the time people see us in media, but they don't understand that there is a core group of us that are always in these zoom calls and congressional meetings, and we are telling our stories. And I think it is because these are human stories. We're not these political pawns. We're not here to be pundits. We are here to really tell our story and hope that it doesn't happen and perpetuate again.

Liz Stein (42:25)

Yeah, I think it's definitely both, and it really depends on who you're talking to. We have some lawmakers that have been just instrumental in really communicating with us, asking us what our thoughts are, what our feelings are. And we have had a lot of really important meetings with lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. We've seen a bit of a shift, and it's not with everyone, but we're now going into Republican lawmakers offices and they're listening to us, they're sitting down, and they're really hearing us. I feel like for the first time, really understanding what this story is, because when you peel back what the headlines are and you frame it in such a way that you make people understand that this is a crime and it's a crime of sex trafficking, and we were girls and young women. And when you put it into language that people can understand and relate to, what if this was your daughter? What if this was a friend of yours, your aunt? And when you, you take all of the emotion, the political emotion out of it and you ask people to look at it for whatever it is, then they understand the issue in a very different way. And so what we're starting to see with some Republican lawmakers is we really hear you. We're understanding this issue in a way that we just did not understand it before. We want to support you, but. Or we're behind you 100% here in this call, but we're not sure how we feel about that public publicly.

Kara Swisher (44:05)

What's the but?

Liz Stein (44:07)

I think that people are reluctant to go up against this administration. I think that that's what the but is.

Kara Swisher (44:18)

Yeah, it starts with Donald, ends with Trump.

Liz Stein (44:21)

You know, we're living in a country right now that is not the America that I grew up in. And the America that I grew up in. We crossed the aisle, we listened to each other, and we stood for what was right, despite what our political parties. And so when you say to someone, are you okay with girls and young women being sexually victimized? Is that all right with you? It changes the tone because you're not saying, do you believe Donald Trump or do you believe Bill Clinton or do you believe any of these men? Because they're men on both sides of the aisle. So it's, you're not polarizing yourself politically. You're focusing on what you're looking for

Kara Swisher (45:04)

what the actual thing was, the actual main thing.

Liz Stein (45:06)

Absolutely. And how, you know, we wouldn't let this happen in our communities. We wouldn't let perpetrators of these crimes go free in our communities. So why are we doing that as a nation? And so dialing back the political emotion here is really important.

Kara Swisher (45:22)

Absolutely. Go ahead, Jess.

Jess Michaels (45:23)

Yeah, I do think that it is being used politically. I do think people care about it as well. I do think it's both. And I think there's an opportunity here that politicians are jumping on because this is the one bipartisan issue that has come up in the country in the last 10 years that everyone can agree upon. I mean, we got an act of Congress. It wasn't just Congress that pushed that act through. It was us. It was us advocating in rooms with Republicans, with Democrats to get everyone on the same page. We worked really hard to help get that law passed. And I think that this administration, if you were to ask me where. I think the big error that's going to be made is that sexual harm happens in every single school, in every single community, in every single state and at volumes in this country that this administration doesn't even believe. And so I believe that this issue will sneak up on the administration, that there are many more people that haven't necessarily voice their opinion about it. Even though we have a ton of support on both sides, I think that this administration is going to be shocked.

Kara Swisher (46:39)

Yeah, of course. We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from IQ Bar. IQ Bar protein bars, IQ Mix hydration mixes and IQ Joe mushroom coffees are delicious lotion, sugar, brain and body fuel you'll need to win your day. Listen, we all need a snack now and then, but not all snacks are created equal. All IQ Bar products are clean, label certified and entirely free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs and artificial ingredients. I've tried their bars and their mixes and they're quite good. I really like them. I use a lot of energy bars and I mostly don't like them. They don't taste good. They taste like cardboard. These are actually really flavorful. I've tried. Their mix is very good and they're giving me all the nutrients I need and they're very easy. And on the go, with over 20,000 five star reviews and counting, more people than ever are fueling their busy lives with IQ bars, brain and body boosting bars, hydration mixes and mushroom coffees. Their ultimate sampler pack includes all three. Again, I've tried them all. They're all excellent, and some of these things, as people know, aren't. And right now, IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products, including the Ultimate Sampler Pack. A good way to test this stuff out, plus free shipping. To get your 20% off, text Kara to 64,000 text Kara to 64,000. That's Kara K A R A to 64,000 message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. Support for this show comes from Deleteme. Deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Getting off the Internet altogether is unrealistic for most of us, but your privacy is worth protecting. Instead of pulling the plug altogether, let the experts at Deleteme help you remove the personal information you don't want online. This isn't a one time service. Deleteme sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it and what they removed. I use Delete Me all the time. I look and try to be clear about what's happening with my privacy. I've found surprising things, a lot of it inaccurate actually, which is also a problem. A lot of stuff compiled in a way that's a little terrifying, that people could take advantage of you, and a lot of stuff that is just dangerous to be out there, especially about my kids and other things like that. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com and use the promo code Kara at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com Kara and enter the code Kara at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Kara code Kara Hey, Kara Swisher here. I want to let you know that Vox Media is returning to south by Southwest in Austin for live tapings of your favorite podcast. Join us from March 13th through the 15th for live tapings of Today Explained, Teffy Talks, Prof. G Markets, and of course your two favorite podcasts, Pivot and On with Kara Swisher. The stage will also feature sessions from Brene Brown and Adam Grant, Marques Brownlee, Keith Lee, Vivian Tu and Robin Arzon. It's all part of the Vox Media Podcast stage at south by Southwest, presented by Odoo. Visit voxmedia.comsxsw to pre register and get your special discount on your innovation badge. That's voxmedia.comsxsw to register. Really, you should register. We sell out and we hope to see you there. Let's talk a little bit more about how you've been personally navigating the release of the Epstein files. Two congressmen were part of getting these files released. California Democrat Ro Khanna and Kentucky Republican Thomas Massie. Two extraordinarily different people. I have to tell you, I know Roe quite well for many years. I don't know Massie, but certainly couldn't be more different. Talk about very briefly, who else is helping? Would you say getting accountability? Because accountability is the critical element here, as you all noted. And of course internationally, the fallout has been even bigger. They're actually doing something about it. We've seen high profile resignations, investigations I assume will go on. Dan, you said that in the U.S. as you noted, didn't feel like it was taken seriously. So who is helping and who is hindering from your point of view? Let's start with Dani.

Danielle Bensky (51:23)

Yeah, I think, I mean the Democratic Women's Caucus has been extraordinary for us. I think there are almost too many to name. But Melanie Stansbury has been amazing on this topic from the very, very beginning, from the get go. I was at the House Oversight Committee in September and there were six of us in that room. And for the first time I shared my story along with so many others. And she had come to Annie Farmer and I after and just looked us dead in the face and said this is a cover up and we're going to fix this. We're going to figure this one out. And I believed her. She's just the most genuine, you know, so she's been amazing. But Robert Garcia, I mean it's like so many to name. And there are Republicans that are, we're in Republican offices all the time and I think we're having amazing conversations in those Republican offices. You know, we were recently in Kat Koemic's office and we've been, we've spoken to Joni Ernst. Right. There are Republicans that we, we leave feeling like, wow, we were so seen and then there's really no follow through. And that feels so frustrating. Right when we were at Kat K. Mick's office, we were talking about it was the day the Bondi hearing and we did a press conference that was hosted by the Democratic Women's Caucus and we said to Kat Kimik, who is the head of the Republican Women's Caucus, can you please talk to your constituents and come and stand with us because it's about women, and not just about women, it's about survivors. Right. But in that moment, we were like, can you just talk to your constituents and please stand in solidarity with us? And the only Republican that showed up was Nancy Mace. And so it's like, where is the disconnect? Where are we not having that sort of just follow through from them? So that feels a little disheartening. But of course, Thomas Masson's been incredible for us, and Nancy Mace has been amazing.

Kara Swisher (53:19)

So I would note Ernst as a sexual assault, a survivor in Mace. Also.

Liz Stein (53:25)

Liz, you know, I want to touch on something Jess said earlier about how we were able to get the Epstein Files Transparency out act pass. That was something that no one ever thought that we would ever be able to do. And the only way that we were able to do it is because constituents reached out to their representatives and they spoke. And that's how our government works. So that's how it's supposed to work.

Kara Swisher (53:52)

Right. So citizens.

Liz Stein (53:54)

Citizens. Right. You know, I think that a lot of people out there might be sitting, listening to this story and feeling powerless, not knowing what they can do to help. And really what you can do is, is you can call your lawmakers and let them know how you feel about this issue because they're in office because of you.

Kara Swisher (54:14)

Sometimes they don't act that way.

Liz Stein (54:15)

No, they don't. But I think that we need to remind ourselves of that right now in our country.

Kara Swisher (54:21)

Absolutely, 100%. Jess.

Jess Michaels (54:24)

That's actually a complicated question because though I believe that we are getting as much support as we possibly can from the Democratic Women's Caucus, from people like Robert Garcia, from the Rep who invited me to the State of the Union, Representative Walkinshaw, who had the best answer for why, as a guy, he was getting involved in this that I had heard. And he said, look, I've worked a long time in gender based violence, and what I see often is women doing all of the work, women shouldering the complete burden of this issue. And he said, I wanted to jump in and I want to support, not because. Because I want to center myself, because I want to lift some of that burden. It was one of the best answers that I had heard. So we do have people that are in there that are really trying. And it's 60, probably over 70 days past the deadline, and I'm kind of a like, all right, why aren't we suing Congress? Why hasn't Pam Bondi been impeached? Where are the consequences for them not meeting the deadline? That wasn't when things were supposed to start, that was supposed to be the deadline line. And there was zero communication about that, so.

Kara Swisher (55:39)

Well, I think that's the point. Who's gonna stop them?

Jess Michaels (55:41)

Yeah, who's gonna stop them? And I think once that line was crossed and nothing happened, I believe that it set a very bad precedent.

Kara Swisher (55:49)

And I do. This is an administration who crosses lines, then sees nobody stops them, and then just stays there. And that shows the weakness of our government in a lot of ways. So amid all the redactions in the Epstein files, there've been a lot of calls for survivors to name Epstein's co conspirators. Liz, what do you make of the those calls?

Liz Stein (56:06)

I think it's important to remember that it's not our job to release names of people that could put us in a lot of danger, physically danger of legal repercussions. But we have told our lawyers, right. And I think that if these crimes are ever going to be investigated seriously, it needs to be done in collaboration with our attorneys who have this information. It's just, it's such an enormous weight to put on the burden. To put that burden on the shoulders of survivors. And it's just, it's. It's impractical. And in any other case, we wouldn't be, we wouldn't be saying, you know, the survivors of these crimes need to name the perpetrators of these crimes publicly. I mean, you know, publicly.

Danielle Bensky (56:58)

I mean, we have a Department of justice for a reason.

Jess Michaels (57:00)

Right.

Danielle Bensky (57:01)

Like it shouldn't be on the survivors.

Kara Swisher (57:04)

Yeah. The problem is some of the. There's NDAs involved. There's all kinds of things that in order to get testimony. But there are what people don't understand. And I think actually the New York Times just did a great piece about the people, the doctors around it, the lawyers around it, the people that enable it happen. And it's always, you know, we tend to try to isolate Epstein as a single impresario of everything. But there were people helping him. Bankers, all kinds of people, which I think are critical to name or to at least understand.

Jess Michaels (57:31)

People understand, but they are named. They're in the files. And that was the point of the files being unredacted. And yet those names are often being protected. And so what we need is people to start putting pressure on the DOJ rather than pressure on survivors. Maria did this in 1996. There have been multiple times that this case should have been investigated, that more arrests should have been made, and it's not for lack of survivors coming forward.

Kara Swisher (57:59)

Yeah, absolutely. It shouldn't be your burden whatsoever. It should be. And these, you know, these enablers in many ways have gotten off and have been not as damaging as Jeffrey Epstein. But in that same thing, I had one of the people helping this guy who had threatened me when I was in my twenties come up to me at a party when I was very recently, relatively a couple of years ago, and said, I hope you can forgive me. And I said, I just can't. And I said, you need to move away from me right now. And they're like, well, forgiveness is really important. I said, I know, but I'm not going to be doing that for you, so good luck. And I said, you're a terrorist. I said, you scared a twin. Try to scare into silence and you can fuck all the way off as

Jess Michaels (58:41)

far as I'm concerned. But never paid.

Kara Swisher (58:42)

Never paid too, at the same time, which was really disappointing. It was a woman too, which was just horrible. Let's end by talking about where things go from here and look at the big picture. The crimes committed against you and countless other women have exposed this so called Epstein class. Many of the richest and most powerful people in the world turned to Epstein for access to women he trafficked. Or they turn to blind eyes, die. That's also the case to his crimes. And accepted money and connections are just social, you know, social parties, dinners and everything else. Danny, broaden this out for us because there's been a lot of comparisons to the Epstein files in the 2008 financial crisis where millions of Americans lost their homes while the banks got bailed out. Like the same idea. Talk about the way the files reveal how power works in this country. Because, you know, I think it's very much linked to a lot of different things. Different things, you know, whether the tech moguls taking over things and making decisions for the rest of us, et cetera, or the attempts to make us feel powerless and that some people get theirs and others do not. Danny, why don't you start and then the others can chime in.

Danielle Bensky (59:52)

Yeah, I mean, it's always power versus vulnerability, right? It's at the heart of all exploitation. And so when we are these young girls in this country, it's very easy for a powerful person. I think, like, especially if you've had any sort of grooming in your background where you've been groomed to be a people pleaser or groomed to always strive for perfection, it's, it's easy to walk into a trap. And I think that we really need to get to the core of the power structure, you know, because power protects power. And so we have to find a way to, you know, just make sure it's the right people that are at the top.

Jess Michaels (60:34)

Jess, One of the things that I have noted in the minimal amount of files that I've gone through and what I've read from others online is that this has really permeated every single area of society, from the medical industry, the entertainment industry, the arts industry, academia, tech, banking and financing, politics, literally everywhere. And just like the Danny said, powerful people are protected. I think that that has been a secret. And what I hope is that one of the levels of transparency that happened is that how that is kept secret is revealed, because we're seeing it now. It's not a secret. People are talking about it. And I do hope in one of my areas of hope, that is that transparency, the transparency of everything that's come before us, like everything that's happened up till now, to show those vials is what's going to change that, that level

Kara Swisher (61:38)

of secret protection, instead of people saying, oh, the rich get off kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah, Liz.

Liz Stein (61:43)

We're used to seeing powerful people protect each other. And I think that the only way that we change things that live in darkness is by bringing them out into the light. And I think that now this is on display for every room to see. You know, I think that 10 years ago, if we talked about what our experiences were, people would have brushed us off and thought that we were. That we were crazy, and, you know, all of those. All of those stigmatizing stereotypes that people throw on us. But now we're seeing it. And so now that we're seeing it right in front of us, what are we going to do about it? We have the chance to change the narrative here. We have a chance to hold people accountable in various ways, whether it's losing their positions of power, whether it's legal repercussions. We have the opportunity to change what this looks like for the future, and I really hope that we take that opportunity when we seize it, because we need to change this narrative 100%.

Kara Swisher (62:48)

I think one of the things my other podcast says is the rich are. Are protected by the law, but not bound by it. And everybody else is bound by the law but not protected by it, which is really, absolutely true. And Epstein was very deep into tech. He was around at all these events. I never met him, but he was there, and he was funding things just to insidiously involve himself in academics or technology, and tried very hard to get sort of made whole after his first bout with the law, where he got off rather easily. So he was trying to re establish his reputation. And in that vein, every episode we get a question from an outside expert. And yours actually comes from Julie K. Brown, an investigative reporter at the Miami Herald who helped expose the extent of Epstein's crimes with her incredibly groundbreaking piece much later about the first conviction. So let's listen to what Julie has to ask.

Liz Stein (63:46)

Hi there, everybody.

Kara Swisher (63:48)

My question to you is Donald Trump

Liz Stein (63:51)

has frequently said of late that he believes that he has been exonerated as far as these files are concerned.

Kara Swisher (64:00)

And I was wondering what your thoughts are about him being exonerated. Okay, Jess, then Liz, then Danny.

Jess Michaels (64:08)

Well, we know that the president speaks in broad gaslighting strokes and throws words out that don't necessarily equate to anything that's actually happening. And so interestingly gave no proof of any of that at all. And there is plenty of instances in there. I am one of the survivors, and I think we're all in agreement that he is in there enough times. He should be testifying and there should be investigations.

Kara Swisher (64:42)

He should be investigating. He's not exonerated. He hasn't been investigated.

Jess Michaels (64:46)

He's not exonerated. As a matter of fact, we have way more questions than answers now. And he needs to be part of that investigation.

Kara Swisher (64:54)

Absolutely. Liz?

Liz Stein (64:55)

Yeah. In no way has Donald Trump been exonerated by this. We haven't exonerated anyone. And that's why these investigations are so important. Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein really needs to be looked at under a microscope, and he needs to be questioned just like any other one else. Anyone else is being questioned right now about what he knows about Jeffrey Epstein's crimes, Right?

Kara Swisher (65:23)

Absolutely. Everyone deserves the right to be investigated properly so that they can be exonerated if they are, in fact, not guilty. Danny?

Danielle Bensky (65:32)

Yeah, everything that everybody already said, but I mean, it has to move through a process. It has to move through legal channel. So this idea of being exonerated, we would love for him to go and be investigated and move through a legal process. You know, do I think, think that he'll be exonerated? I don't know. But, you know, I think that we, we really need to see, we've been saying we need to see the investigations, but we also need to stop putting survivors in places where, you know, I think part of this conversation of exoneration came up when many of us were in a room and they said, raise your hand if Donald Trump has ever done anything to you. And it's like this safety, safety of that is so. Is beyond lacking. And of course, nobody in their right mind is going to raise their hand in a situation like that. That's why we need the files released and investigated. So, yeah, no, nobody's been exonerated.

Kara Swisher (66:26)

Nobody's been exonerated. That's absolutely true. It hasn't been properly investigated. The three of you, speaking of which, have been advocating for the passage of Virginia's law. This is proposed legislation named after another Epstein survivor, perhaps the most famous Virginia juvenile fray. If passed, it would lift the statute of limitations on civil sex abuse cases. This is a critical thing in the case I testified in and it was too long for the person I was testifying for. And I couldn't believe it. I was shocked by this. Like, why doesn't it, why does it have a statute of limitations? And I didn't know this. I was flummoxed as to why it was. Liz, talk about the legislation, why it's important and what else you'd like to see from Congress.

Liz Stein (67:05)

The. This is such an important law because the way that your brain processes sexual trauma, it can take you decades to fully unfold what happened to you. And you know, someone's disclosure can't operate on a legislative timeline. And so a lot of times we see people who were exploited in their teens and their twenties not understanding what happened to them them until their forties or fifties and by that time it's too late. And it's not that the crime didn't happen, it's that the law had the time had run in lock. And so we, we've seen this approach in states. We've seen New York, the Adult Survivors act, which opened a one year look back period for anyone who'd experienced sexual assault. So the importance of Virginia's law is that it would open that up on a federal level. And, and I think that there is no better way to honor the memory of Virginia Roberts Giuffre than to pass this law.

Kara Swisher (68:08)

Let me move on to another one. Jess. You told Katie Couric that you think Congress needs to call more people in to testify. You're just noting that anyone who lost their job over the use of files or who resigned and whose names appeared in the files multiple times and in very significant ways. The Clintons recently testified. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick has said he's willing to. The House Oversight Committee just voted to subpoena bond over the Justice Department's handling the case. Bill Gates and Leon Black have also been asked to testify. What happens next. If this happens, and, you know, most people feel President Trump should be called to testify about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, what do you think happens next, Jess?

Jess Michaels (68:46)

My personal hope is that there is enough information from these testimonies to prove that a full blown investigation needs to happen and hopefully special counsel. Yes, yes. And that survivors will be able to come in and give testimony because many of us feel like we had information that was never, ever listened to by the FBI. And so there's been these, you know, so called investigations, but we have no idea because even the investigation notes were in the files. What I'm hoping is that the testimonies will make way for. Yes, it's clear we need to do some thorough investigations and that needs to. Needs to start now.

Kara Swisher (69:25)

So have any of you spoken to federal investigators about ongoing investigations or. No.

Jess Michaels (69:31)

Nope.

Danielle Bensky (69:32)

Not since, you know, 20. What was that? 2019, when they came to my house.

Kara Swisher (69:36)

So they're not investigating?

Danielle Bensky (69:38)

No.

Jess Michaels (69:38)

I mean, Pam Bondi said in the hearing, supposedly there are ongoing investigations on her desk right now. But, you know, you've gotten.

Kara Swisher (69:48)

Not gotten a call.

Liz Stein (69:49)

No.

Kara Swisher (69:49)

In other words.

Danielle Bensky (69:50)

No, no, I said, what are those investigations? You know, when she said that there, you know, there are active investigations. Okay, great. Is that why you're holding certain files, then? What are they and why, you know, so we just all have. We have so many questions.

Kara Swisher (70:02)

So to be clear, none of you have been called by federal investigators.

Liz Stein (70:05)

No.

Danielle Bensky (70:06)

No.

Kara Swisher (70:06)

Okay. All of you have made advocacy a huge part, and it's incredibly brave. You've lobbied hard for the passage of the Epstein Files Transparency Act. You've been meeting with lawmakers, pushing for Virginia's law, et cetera. Jess, you released an app to help people navigate the days and weeks after someone reveals they've been sexually assaulted like a first aid kid, as you noted. Lives, you're an expert on human trafficking, and you've helped bring Epstein survivors together for the first time. Dani, you've done a whole bunch of things with kids and trying to get people to be safe and figure things out. Talk about how advocacy has helped you come to terms with this abuse and help you heal. It's a very heroic thing to do. I hope you all understand that.

Danielle Bensky (70:45)

Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I think it's so funny when people are like, oh, it's very courageous. And Annie Farmer said it best. It's like you're just walking. You're putting one foot in front of the other, and you just keep putting the feet in front of the other. It just feels like the Next thing to do. And a lot of this does come from.

Kara Swisher (71:01)

For me, that is heroic, just so you know.

Danielle Bensky (71:03)

Thank you for saying that. But, you know, it was.

Liz Stein (71:06)

It's.

Danielle Bensky (71:07)

I watched Virginia Giuffre turn shame into power. And I knew that I wanted to be able to do that for like, for her and for survivors. And I just felt like, you know, the laws need to change. I mean, there are so many things. It's the rabbit hole. Once you start, it's like. Or not even the rabbit hole. It's like cleaning your. Your house, right? It's like you move one thing and then you're like, oh, gosh, now I have to like Windex. Now I have to. You know, and it just keeps building because it's like, oh, well, okay, we did the Transparency Act. We.

Kara Swisher (71:38)

We got a law passed.

Danielle Bensky (71:40)

Like, that's incredible. And then we're like, we need to change statute of limitations. Like, that is the next step. Right. Because there shouldn't be a time limit on justice. I mean, I'm almost 40 now, and I'm just now coming to terms of being able to handle my own abuse and look back and actually see what happened to me, you know, so it's just crazy crucial that we do this. And so it's just having that belief and knowing that you have to do something about it, right?

Kara Swisher (72:04)

Absolutely. Jess.

Jess Michaels (72:06)

I was talking with my therapist recently about, you know, because she was so proud of me. And she's like, and your grand therapist is really proud of you. You know, it takes a lot of courage. And I told her, I can't really feel that. I can't feel it. And she goes, that's because you just are doing the thing that's right for you. And for me, I feel like, like, Liz, I was a child sexual abuse survivor. Then came Epstein to thwart the amount of healing that I had already gone through. And I just can't see myself doing anything else. It's the right thing to do. And all of the people that came before me, that helped me be able to get to here before I could even speak the words, I remember how much it made a difference for me. And so I think what I'm doing is what other people did for me is all I'm doing is taking my hand, reaching down to the person behind me, and giving them a pull up. And that's how we all heal, and that's how we stop being silent and that's how we make cultural change.

Kara Swisher (73:13)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Liz, why don't you finish up for me?

Liz Stein (73:17)

I also when people say that I'm brave, I don't see that or feel that necessarily. I can't imagine doing anything else. And really what fuels me in doing this work is I see my six year old self and I see myself throughout the different ages that I couldn't speak and that I didn't have anyone to talk to. And it would be irresponsible of me to have this position and to not use it so that others did not feel alone in this. Because if I could go back and tell myself anything, it would be tough. Tell someone and if they don't listen, tell someone else and just keep telling until people listen to you. And even if you feel like they don't, be proud of yourself because you at least were able to sit in your uncomfortable truth when other people weren't. And that's really what fuels me, doing this advocacy, being the person that I wish was there for me when I needed them most.

Kara Swisher (74:17)

Which is critically important to think about yourself because people don't mourn themselves in previous versions of themselves.

Liz Stein (74:24)

Let me then ask, can I just add one thing? We've talked about how this trauma is overwhelming and how it impacted our lives negatively. But I just want to leave people with. When you experience trauma, it's possible to recover from trauma. And so you're looking at three women here who've done a lot of work on ourselves and really invested time and energy into finding who we were before all of this happened. And that's possible for all survivors of sexual assault?

Kara Swisher (74:56)

Absolutely, 100%. It doesn't have to completely overwhelm you. It can, it absolutely can.

Danielle Bensky (75:01)

I would also.

Kara Swisher (75:03)

Sorry, go ahead.

Danielle Bensky (75:04)

I would also love to add that community is hugely important and it was underrated. I was, I siloed myself. I was in a pretty horrible relationship for quite some time after my abuse with Jeffrey. And I was really. I siloed myself because I felt like I could never connect to people the way I had before. Abuse and finding, you know, we have the survivor sisters and truly finding this incredible group of people and knowing that there's. There's something that is unsaid, that you just understand the depth of darkness and you're doing something actively to change it. So to be able to work on it, it's like the best group project we possibly can ever have. Right.

Kara Swisher (75:45)

Where.

Danielle Bensky (75:45)

Because it is like we're. The support that you feel from one another is everything and it changes everything for me. I think that like when I wake up in the morning and I listen to any one of these women Talk. It's like, okay, Danny, get up. You can do this, too. You gotta keep going. Right. And so just finding your community and finding those spaces to be able to just speak about the unspeakable, it's really important.

Kara Swisher (76:11)

Absolutely. Can I ask one last question? Final question. If you don't like the word brave or courageous or heroic or whatever, I want you each to think of one word to describe yourself right now. One word. Who wants to start?

Liz Stein (76:23)

I want to use strong.

Kara Swisher (76:24)

Okay. Strong. Because you are.

Liz Stein (76:28)

Yeah, but I didn't always feel that way. You know, how often as women do we quiet those voices inside of us that is telling us who we are, and we're listening to what other people are saying? And so the strength was definitely always, always in me.

Kara Swisher (76:44)

It's just. Yeah, great word. Great word.

Jess Michaels (76:50)

Tenacious. Because I. I would say I don't quit. You know, I. I get an A in therapy.

Kara Swisher (76:59)

Good job.

Jess Michaels (77:00)

Whatever. Whatever. Whatever I attempt to do, I'm like, I just. I don't quit. And. And so I. I would say I'm tenacious.

Kara Swisher (77:09)

Excellent word.

Danielle Bensky (77:10)

I think for me, it's honest, because I couldn't be honest with myself every time I looked in the mirror for so long. I didn't. It just always felt like that imposter syndrome of even being alive, because I knew that this abuse had happened and it was tucked away in the darkest parts of myself. So I think that every day this has been a pursuit of real honesty for me.

Kara Swisher (77:32)

This is great. I would call you all inevitable eventually.

Liz Stein (77:36)

We hope you're right.

Jess Michaels (77:37)

I am right.

Danielle Bensky (77:37)

I hope so.

Liz Stein (77:39)

We're holding you to it.

Kara Swisher (77:40)

It's just because you don't know how the story is going to end that you feel hopeless. But it's not the case. It's inevitable.

Jess Michaels (77:45)

I love that word, inevitable.

Kara Swisher (77:46)

Thank you. You are. Anyway, I really appreciate it. Dani, Jess and Liz, thank you so much.

Liz Stein (77:51)

Thank you, Kara.

Danielle Bensky (77:52)

Thank you.

Jess Michaels (77:53)

Thank you, Kara.

Kara Swisher (77:59)

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro with Sleep, Michelle Aloy, Kathryn Millsop, Megan Burney and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester and Madeline LaPlante Dubie. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.