Podcast Summary: "The Red Scare Returns? Lessons from McCarthyism in the Age of Trump 2.0"

Podcast Information

• Title: On with Kara Swisher
• Host: Kara Swisher
• Episode: The Red Scare Returns? Lessons from McCarthyism in the Age of Trump 2.0
• Release Date: July 3, 2025
• Description: In this episode, Kara Swisher engages in a deep dive with Clay Risen, a New York Times reporter and author of Red Blacklists: McCarthyism and the Making of Modern America. They explore the parallels between the historical Red Scare and the contemporary political climate under President Trump, examining how anti-communist sentiment has resurfaced and evolved.

1. Introduction to the Modern Red Scare (03:53 – 08:29)

Kara Swisher sets the stage by highlighting the resurgence of anti-communist rhetoric in today's political landscape, drawing comparisons to the McCarthy era. She introduces Clay Risen, praising his comprehensive work on McCarthyism and its enduring impacts.

Notable Quote:

"I think history is obviously instructive, but at the same time, we always think it couldn't happen here and it has actually. And we've managed to push it back time and again in our history."
— Kara Swisher [04:30]

2. Contemporary Case Study: Zoran Mamdani (04:00 – 08:29)

Swisher brings up the recent political turmoil surrounding Zoran Mamdani, the Democratic mayoral primary winner in New York City, who has been derisively labeled a "communist" by President Trump. Risen discusses the backlash Mamdani faces despite his actual political stance as a Democratic socialist, illustrating how the language of the Red Scare is being repurposed today.

Notable Quote:

"It is dangerously vague. And actually, could someone make the case that under that law he could be penalized because the law itself criminalizes even association in many ways with the Communist Party."
— Clay Risen [06:55]

3. Historical Context: The First Red Scare (10:45 – 13:44)

Risen provides a historical overview of anti-communist sentiments in the United States, tracing them back to post-World War I and the First Red Scare. He explains how early fears of communist infiltration were intertwined with xenophobia and anti-immigrant sentiments, laying the groundwork for later developments.

Notable Quote:

"You can imagine the next point where for whatever reason, because history is weird, the Republicans say, in 2028, we have a Democratic president, and Republicans have even more power in the House and the Senate. Right. They could pass legislation that pulls back a lot of the same things that they gave to Trump."
— Clay Risen [48:00]

4. The Rise of McCarthyism (14:06 – 16:12)

Delving into the specifics of McCarthyism, Risen discusses how Senator Joseph McCarthy capitalized on the political climate of the 1940s and 1950s. He highlights McCarthy's opportunistic rise despite lacking traditional political appeal and his collaboration with Roy Cohn, whose aggressive tactics amplified the Red Scare.

Notable Quote:

"McCarthy would come out with a charge about an individual person and it would be proven that that's not true at all. McCarthy would say, look, it doesn't really matter whether this person or that person is guilty of what I say. My bigger point, that there are Communists in the government. That's true."
— Clay Risen [43:05]

5. The Hollywood Blacklist (22:30 – 26:56)

Risen explores the infamous Hollywood Blacklist, detailing how actors, writers, and industry professionals were ostracized based on alleged communist affiliations. He explains the mechanisms of the blacklist, including whisper campaigns and private lists like "Red Channels," and discusses the personal and professional toll it took on those targeted.

Notable Quote:

"It's almost like Spanish Inquisition and... how did people then clear themselves?"
— Clay Risen [24:12]

6. Government and Institutional Responses (29:16 – 34:13)

The conversation shifts to the roles of key figures like J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn in perpetuating the Red Scare. Risen explains how Hoover initially supported McCarthy but later saw him as a threat to effective anti-communist efforts. He also details Roy Cohn's transition from McCarthy’s aide to a significant influence on Donald Trump, emphasizing the enduring legacy of McCarthy-era tactics in modern politics.

Notable Quote:

"Cohn did two things right. First of all, he made it an operation, whereas before it had kind of been McCarthy and just kind of whoever was working for him."
— Clay Risen [31:03]

7. Media's Role and McCarthy's Downfall (35:36 – 41:27)

Risen analyzes the pivotal role of media in both enabling and dismantling McCarthy's influence. He credits figures like Edward R. Murrow and Senator Joe Welch for turning public opinion against McCarthy through televised hearings and exposes, highlighting the power of television as a tool for accountability.

Notable Quote:

"McCarthy was so much of a bully. Being clearly probably drunk in his hearing. He was often pretty inebriated."
— Clay Risen [37:56]

8. Parallels Between McCarthyism and the Trump Era (41:27 – 55:28)

The discussion draws direct parallels between the tactics used during McCarthy's time and those employed in the Trump administration. Risen points out similarities in conspiracy theories, character assassinations, and the undermining of political opponents through unfounded accusations. He also addresses how figures like Stephen Miller and Steve Bannon embody aspects of McCarthy-era antagonists.

Notable Quote:

"That has foisted immigrants on us or you know, trans rights or, you know, that these things are all connected and they're operated by this cabal."
— Clay Risen [45:44]

9. The Role of Judicial and Political Institutions Today (47:38 – 51:56)

Risen expresses concern over the weakening of judicial safeguards and the absence of a moderating political establishment that previously curbed excesses like McCarthyism. He underscores the importance of strong institutions in preventing the rise of authoritarianism and warns of the potential for future abuses of power.

Notable Quote:

"There is a predicate... what kind of damage that can do to civil liberties."
— Clay Risen [50:20]

10. Q&A with Molly Jongfast (51:56 – 55:28)

In response to a question from political analyst Molly Jongfast, Risen emphasizes the critical role of modern media in combating authoritarianism. He suggests that today's equivalent of Murrow could be individuals or groups who effectively use digital platforms to expose and challenge demagoguery.

Notable Quote:

"There are hundreds of thousands of people out there protesting and organizing. And that makes me feel good about where we're going."
— Clay Risen [58:00]

11. Closing Thoughts: Upholding Foundational Values (55:28 – End)

As the episode concludes, Swisher and Risen reflect on America's foundational principles as outlined in the Declaration of Independence. Risen contends that while norms have eroded, active civic engagement and movements provide hope for restoring democratic values and resisting oppressive forces.

Notable Quote:

"Movements change history. It means something that there are hundreds of thousands of people out there protesting and organizing. And that makes me feel good about where we're going."
— Clay Risen [58:00]

Conclusion

In this compelling episode of On with Kara Swisher, the conversation between Kara Swisher and Clay Risen serves as a poignant reminder of the cyclical nature of political repression and the enduring importance of vigilance in safeguarding democratic values. By drawing detailed parallels between the Red Scare of the 20th century and the current political climate, Risen provides valuable insights into how history can inform and guide present-day actions to prevent the resurgence of authoritarianism.