The WNBA Is On a Winning Streak. Is It Sustainable?

Summary

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Podcast Summary

On with Kara Swisher (Vox Media)

Episode: The WNBA Is On a Winning Streak. Is It Sustainable?
Date: April 23, 2026
Guests: Clara Wu Tsai (Owner, New York Liberty & Brooklyn Nets)
Notable Segment: Guest question by Sue Bird (Former WNBA Star, Vox podcaster)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Kara Swisher interviews Clara Wu Tsai, owner of the WNBA’s New York Liberty and the NBA’s Brooklyn Nets, focusing on the massive turnaround and recent surge in WNBA popularity. They discuss Wu Tsai’s initial bold investment in the Liberty, keys to the league’s growth, the economics of women’s sports, new broadcast and CBA deals, expansion, technology, and efforts to close the data gap in women’s sports science through the Human Performance Alliance. They also consider what’s needed to make the WNBA’s momentum sustainable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Clara Wu Tsai’s Investment in the New York Liberty

• Background: The Liberty, a founding WNBA franchise, were struggling after being moved out of Madison Square Garden and up for sale.
• Wu Tsai’s Vision: Clara and her husband Joe Tsai purchased the team in 2019, moving it back to a top arena and investing in facilities and management.
• “Even though it looks genius in hindsight, it was pretty radical at the time to buy the team.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 05:25)
• Key reason for the gamble: The Liberty were in the best media market, had strong heritage, and featured world-class athletes.
• Challenges: Wu Tsai acknowledged the early difficulties, including tiny crowds (2,000 fans in an 18,000 seat arena) and financial losses.

The Surge in Women's Basketball Popularity

• Main Drivers:
  • High-quality, competitive games: “The women play with incredible spirit and grit, and it’s very physical… it starts with the quality of the competition.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 08:15)
  • Expanded audience: More women who played sports (post-Title IX) are now sports consumers.
  • New stars—especially Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese—have drawn huge new audiences and energized fans across demographics.

The "Caitlin Clark Effect" and Star-Driven Leagues

• Star Power: The WNBA’s business model, like the NBA, relies on star players to grow fan interest and broadcast value.
• "It's a star-driven league…you want to make sure you have a good pipeline of talent coming up." (Clara Wu Tsai, 12:42)
• The NCAA women's tournament and college stars arriving with built-in social media followings provide an engine for future audience growth.

Audience and Business Model Evolution

• Media Rights Deals: Wu Tsai emphasizes that live broadcasting and premium slots are crucial for growth.
• New 11-year TV deal (2024): $2.2B, but still dwarfed by men's sports deals. “The WNBA viewership is a meaningful fraction of the NBA’s, but we are a tiny fraction of the media deal… That’s the investment opportunity.” (27:00)
• Expansion: Three new teams in Detroit, Cleveland, and Philadelphia. Despite skepticism (e.g., from Bill Simmons), Wu Tsai points to a deep, underutilized talent pipeline: "I don’t really worry about diluting the talent… we need to." (24:50)
• Fan Engagement: Building community in-arena is as important as digital growth.

The 2026 CBA and Player Compensation

• Historic Salary Increases: Largest in US pro sports history; salary cap grows from $1.4M to $7M (with targets up to $11M).
• Top salary jumps from $240K to $1.4M, average to $600K. “I’m glad we did this because…Caitlin [Clark] brought a massive new audience, but she was making $76,000…Now, $500,000.” (18:30)
• Revenue Sharing: For the first time, players now share in league revenue, aligning incentives.
• "Now there’s more incentive for us to work together to grow the business." (19:39)

League Ownership Structure & Growth

• Current ownership: NBA (42%), team owners (42%), outside investors (16%). NBA’s involvement has been essential but is evolving as the league gains independence.
• Trade-offs: Outside capital fueled survival and growth, but any structural change now would be costly due to increased valuations.
• “The NBA really created and sustained the league.” (23:42)

Globalization & The Future

• International Expansion: “Toronto is starting this year…23% of WNBA players are foreign born...We’re on our way.” (40:57)
• Offseason Play: With salary increases, fewer players need to play abroad in the offseason, allowing year-round engagement with fans.
• NBA vs. WNBA Ownership: Running the Liberty feels “energizing” due to growth and experimentation, while NBA ownership is more about “rebuilding” with patient fans (43:20).

Tech in Sports & Fan Experience

• Technology: Focus on improving live experience (e.g., facial recognition for venue entry), but maintaining a human, community-driven environment.
• “People come to games now not just for the competition… they want community and to feel connection.” (29:53)
• Limited interest in AI or robots replacing human interaction; more interested in back-end AI to boost sales, not the fan experience.

Human Performance Alliance & Closing the Data Gap in Women’s Sports Science

• Alliance Goal: Six-university initiative studying peak athletic performance, injury prevention, and translating findings to the general public.
• “So much sports science has been done on men and then just transferred to women…We need more data on female athlete physiology.” (38:48)
• Three big challenges: Predicting injury, individualized training, closing the gender data gap.
• Aim for long-term, clinically robust research (not “wellness grifters”).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Investing in the Liberty:
  “Even though it looks genius in hindsight, it was pretty radical at the time.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 05:25)

• On improvement before star influx:
  “Pre-Caitlin Clark, we had already seen a very significant increase in all our metrics.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 07:43)

• On star-driven leagues:
  “It’s a star-driven league…what you want to make sure is that you’re promoting your stars, you’re showcasing your stars.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 12:42)

• On the business opportunity:
  “Women’s sports in general have been underinvested in and under-monetized with respect to talent and fan engagement, frankly, that there is.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 27:00)

• On the CBA breakthrough:
  “Now there’s more incentive for us to work together to grow the business.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 19:39)

• On technology and fans:
  “We’re really leaning into the play, the fan experience, and creating some energy that’s gonna draw people in.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 29:53)

• On women’s sports sustainability:
  “I don’t think it’s a bubble at all. I think women’s sports is moving to a re-rating because…there’s a real opportunity as revenues catch up.” (Clara Wu Tsai, 46:52)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Background & Purchase of Liberty: 05:24–07:42
• Popularity Surge & Drivers: 07:54–09:44
• Expert Question (Sue Bird): 09:09–12:11
• CBA/Player Compensation: 18:06–21:11
• Ownership Structure & Expansion: 22:08–26:37
• Media Rights Value Disparity: 27:00–28:03
• Tech & Live Experience: 29:08–31:56
• Human Performance Alliance: 34:17–40:16
• International Expansion: 40:35–41:33
• Fan Engagement & Culture: 44:34–46:29
• Long-term Sustainability: 46:52–47:52

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The Tone & Takeaways

• Candid, data-driven, and optimistic: Both Swisher and Wu Tsai are direct and clear-eyed about both challenges and opportunities.
• A sense of momentum: The current moment for women’s sports isn’t a fad, but a re-pricing of something previously undervalued.
• Long-term vision: Sustained investment, smart audience cultivation, and prioritization of player wellbeing and research are key to making the run last.
• Final Words:
  “Thank you so much for talking about this. A great interview.” (Kara Swisher, 47:52)

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Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

You don't like being talked about, do you? I don't care. I do.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I care less. I care less.

[Kara Swisher]

I do. But I like troll them back and I'm excellent at it and they lose every time. So I'm not a sports person, but I'm very competitive.

[Podcast Host Introduction]

It's on.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

It is.

[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

Oh, hi everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Clara Wu Tsai, owner of the WNBA's New York Liberty and the NBA's Brooklyn Nets. Clara and her husband Alibaba co founder Joe Tsai purchased the liberty in 2019 during a low point for the franchise. Its previous owner, James Dolan had put the team up for sale in 2017 and moved it from Madison Square Garden to a small arena in Westchester County, New York. But Clara made a big bet on the New York Liberty and the wnba. She moved the team to the Barclays center in Brooklyn, invested in player facilities, fan experiences and recruited top talent, which kicked off a major turnaround and coincided with a surge in popularity for the wnba. And to cap it off, the Liberty won the league championship in 2024. In addition to turning Liberty into a winning franchise, Clara's work across business and philanthropy led to the creation of the Wu Tsai Human Performance Alliance, a six university research initiative that studies peak human performance and aims to close the data gap in women's sports science. I really enjoy talking to Clara. I've met her a long time ago. I have been covering Alibaba for many years and she's one of the smartest business focused owners I have seen. Also is very open minded of new things, but she doesn't get stuck in the data. She really does love the sport and just one of these very smart people that I think we should hear more from. And I wish more owners were like her. So let's get into my conversation with Clara. I interviewed her last week at the CAA World Congress of Sports presented by Sports Business Journal. Our expert question today comes from WNBA All Star Sue Bird. She hosts the Vox Media podcast, Bird's Eye View and a touch more. This was a fun and important conversation. Clara is very smart. You should be listening to her all you different team owners. So stick around. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes

[Kara Swisher]

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[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

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[Kara Swisher]

It is Odo Clara, thanks for joining me at the CAA World Congress of Sports presented by Sports Business Journal for a live taping of on. Welcome Clara. So let's start with New York Liberty. Eight years ago, New York Liberty was a struggling franchise. You called it a distressed asset and the WNBA was nowhere near as popular as it is today. You and your husband, Alibaba co founder Joe Tsai, purchased Liberty in 2019 and began a major turnaround. What did you see that made it a worthy investment? When you were looking at it, you could invest in anything.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, when we bought the team, we had just finalized purchase of the Brooklyn Nets and Barkley center. And that was in 2019. And in 2017 the previous owners of the Liberty had put the team up for sale, and by 2018, had moved it to the suburbs from Madison Square Garden in Westchester. And so the league was desperately looking for someone to buy the team. And they asked us to take a look at it. And, you know, all the numbers were. It was losing money. All the numbers were going in the wrong direction. It had lost a lot of its small arena. And so it was, you know, it was. Even though, you know, I just want to say out front that even though it looks genius in hindsight, it was pretty radical at the time to buy the team. Right. And so. But we were the logical buyers because we owned Barclays center. And it was. It's embarrassing. It's a major team in a major market, and these women should be playing in a world class arena. So we were the natural buyers. So when we looked at it, there were some fundamentals that looked interesting, but the business was still bad. But we did see that they were the best female basketball players in the world. They were Olympians. And we were playing in the best media market, best TV market in the world, and in a town that loves basketball. So we thought, okay, those fundamentals seemed pretty interesting. Plus the history of the Liberty. It was one of the original founding teams.

[Kara Swisher]

Sure was, yeah.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

And it did go to the final four times in the first six years of the league.

[Kara Swisher]

It was a successful team.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

It was a successful team. So it was a storied franchise. So those things there, you know, the thought was, okay, well, maybe we can reinvest, reinvigorate the franchise, bring the old fans back, find some new ones. That was the vision.

[Kara Swisher]

What was your worry? What was your worry? Like, what do I need this for? Kind of thing.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, well, the worry was it was going to take a lot of time. We knew we would lose some money. And, you know, in the first days, we had 2,000 people in an arena that sits 18,000. And the question was just how long were we going to have to live with 2,000 people in the arena? I have to say, yes, we invested mightily into the franchise. We improved facilities in all aspects of the player experience, we strengthened management, we tried to make it a destination for free agents. And pre Caitlin Clark, we had already seen a very significant increase in all of our metrics.

[Kara Swisher]

In the metrics. Right.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

But there's no doubt that when Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and that Clark came in, they brought a massive new audience as well. So the league really grew a lot in the last five years.

[Kara Swisher]

So the success of the New York Liberty coincided with this wider surge of popularity for the WNBA last year, regular season games averaged 1.3 million viewers on ESPN, the same as the NBA averaged on the network in 20, 24 and 25. What do you think is driving the surge in interest and women's sports more broadly?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I think that the competition on the court, I think it's really good basketball. I think the women play with incredible spirit and grit, and it's very physical. So I just. I think it starts with the quality of the competition and people. People want to see that. I think also just more women who played sports. You know, when Title IX happened, like, those women started to play sports and now they're out. They're consumers and they want to watch

[Kara Swisher]

women's sports and because they. Themselves.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Because they themselves, Yeah. I think maybe for a lot of women, they see themselves reflected in it and they view it as more than basketball, but a lot of men come to our games as well. So I can't really see that.

[Kara Swisher]

You can't just. You want to have a broader group of people coming to it. So every episode we have an expert question. I'm gonna have yours played right now.

[Sue Bird]

Hey, I am Sue Bird, former WNBA player and fellow Vox Media podcaster. What's up, Kar? Big question that I would like to ask Clara Wu. Sai is, Clara, you have been ahead of the curve in investing in women's sports. So what is one bet you're making now about the future of the WNBA that most people aren't seeing yet? And if I could sneak another one in, which I don't think is allowed, but what is the most fun part about being an owner? Like, the thing that no one tells you about, but you secretly love?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Okay, the first question I would say, you know, what we're doing is just continuing to invest. There's no ceiling yet on how great the play on the court can be. And I think we need to keep raising the standards of what we're providing to the players. We're building a huge practice facility, right? An 80,000 square foot practice facility in Greenpoint. And, you know, it's not just the hardware, but the software going in there, right. The staffing and the technology and the programming and all of the community elements. You know, my goal is to build an enduring franchise. Like, we want to build something with sustained excellence that's going to stand the test of time. And I think making these, all the investments that we're making are really about that, you know, making sure that.

[Kara Swisher]

What. What is the Greenpoint facility? How much are you spending there?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

75 million. And it's huge. And it's gonna have these practice courts, it's gonna have a lot of private spaces for the players. And there's gonna be community basketball courts. There's gonna be this whole coffee shop, a whole area where we can sell merch. Cause all of our fans love merch. And it's just another way for the community to have a touch point with the players. And a lot of women's sports are very community oriented.

[Kara Swisher]

So what's the thing you hate too?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I try to stay off X and all those things.

[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

Good idea.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, but I guess because there's always trolls who just want to say something, but then you look and you see, oh, they only have one follower. Who cares, right?

[Kara Swisher]

It's also a bit of a Nazi porn bar, but go ahead.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah. So I mean, I think that the thing is with sports ownership is you become. You're very public and suddenly you become someone that everybody feels like they can talk about. The fun part.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't like being talked about, do you? I don't care. I do.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I care less. I care less.

[Kara Swisher]

I do. But I like troll them back and I'm excellent at it. And they lose every time. So I'm not a sports person, but I'm very careful.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I don't have an account. I lurk. I'm a lurk.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not on Twitter. I do think it's a Nazi porn bar, but I enjoy the packing porn.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

But what I love, I mean, I love it all, but see, I love basketball. Yeah. So I just love going to the games and I love seeing.

[Kara Swisher]

And you're a sports person yourself.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, I love sports. I love basketball. So the best part is being able to go to games, bring my friends, be there with family. There's also nothing better than winning a championship.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. That might have been nice. Right? You like that?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, love it.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, good. So let's get into some of the recent news around the wnba, including how the league operates and its recent growth. First of all, there's the so called Caitlin Clark effect. Obviously helped kickstart the surge in interest to women's basketball. Talk about the business model. Depending on the popularity of few stars like Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, Asia Wilson. I mean, this is not different from the NBA.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

No. It's a star driven league.

[Kara Swisher]

So talk a little bit about that. And how much does the business model depend on it? Not just Caitlin, but the other players too.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

The business model depends on a great media deal. When you have media and broadcasting, you have it on multi platforms. You have consistent viewing Premium slots. That's essential because that will help you grow your fan base. So the fact that we have this media deal, that's a new floor and it's excellent for the growth of the league and that's what makes us confident in our ability to draw more fans. And what's the importance of someone like a star? Very important. All sports are star driven leagues. And so what you want to make sure is that you're promoting your stars, you're showcasing your stars and you want to make sure that you have a good pipeline of talent coming up. And that's the great thing about the popularity of the NCAA women's college basketball tournament, which is also very steady. I mean, I think the last game, 9.9 people tuned in to the championship game and six of those players from UCLA who were on that winning team got drafted into the league and they already have social media following. Some of them have great nil deals. So they already come in with businesses who could be potential sponsors. You know, the incredible depth of talent that not only from the college but also from overseas, they're the engine for the future and that's very important. So being able to promote them is essential.

[Kara Swisher]

It's interesting with the Caitlin Clark effect, I'm like, have you ever heard of Martina Navruchelov and Chris Everett together? I mean during that time or any. Not just women's sports, all sports seems to be centered around a star or stars or a character driven kind of thing where they face off against each other, they become friends, they're frenemies, those rivalries, right?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Like the whole Magic and Bird, they were rivals in college and then they got drafted together and started had that rivalry against Celtics and Lakers and sort of we did the same thing almost in the same time frame, right.

[Kara Swisher]

And it doesn't have to be heated rivalry, for example. Now sometimes it is.

[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Foreign.

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Kara Swisher]

all right, so the WNBA just held a 2026 draft ahead of the 30th season. Tip off next month. That comes on the heels of a deal on the collective bargaining agreement that's given players a nearly 400% salary increase. Biggest increase in the history of US professional sports. Took a long time to get there. You were talking about it backstage. Things obviously got very heated at times. Talk a little bit about this. You said it's a tiring thing to do.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

These CBAs, yeah, they're never pleasant, but the outcome was phenomenal. I'm really happy with the outcome. Every player is getting a dramatic increase in salary. And for the owners, we're thrilled. We have certainty we have a season. But I think the numbers are phenomenal. I will say some of them here because it's an incredible growth. And so the salary cap has gone from 1.4 to 7 million. And with room to get to almost 11 million when the term ends, the highest paid player is going to go from 240,000 to 1.4 million and the average salary is going to about 600,000. And I'm glad we did this because actually the league needed to have a bit of a reset because we keep talking about Caitlin, but Caitlin brought a massive new audience to the league, but she was making $76,000 and so now that is going to get immediately corrected and she'll be making 500,000. So all in all, it's really great that the players got a raise because they deserve it.

[Kara Swisher]

So talk about the 10. What were the tensions?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

But I also want to mention that actually what's even more important though, besides the salary raise, is that we change the economic model so that there's revenue sharing with the players. So this is really important because now there's players share on the up side of the league, so there's more incentive for us to work together to grow the business. So I really want to point out those two things. One, they got a raise. Second is we're now moving to a more collaborative model and that's going to be really important. Tension.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. What was the difficulty of?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, there was tension, but every collective bargaining negotiation is unpleasant by nature. I think this one had its fair share of drama. I mean, there were missed deadlines and all of it was also very well reported. So, you know, is there anything new to report? I think it took a long time because we were negotiating an entirely new economic model. But you know, if you ask me, did I, you know, did I think that the, that we might have Had a work stoppage. I mean, I, you know, there was a lot of tension. I think both sides knew what was at stake. There was so much momentum that we had built in the league that it wouldn't have been good for owners or players to have a work stoppage. You know, I think the stress was really more around the edges. Kind of like preseason training, camp deadlines, just the compressed ramp up to the season. That's what was the point. And that did happen, right.

[Kara Swisher]

When you think about things you'd like to see more of, is there something that was left on the table you wish the owners had gotten or the players?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I'm really happy we have a collaborative model and that we're incentivized to work together. Because I think the alignment is essential

[Kara Swisher]

between players and owners, players and owners, which is hard for the old economics of it, which is I'm paying you run or throw the ball or something.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think that is going to be replicated elsewhere around the sports world?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I think so.

[Kara Swisher]

I do talk about why that's important. I mean, it's happening in media now. It's the kind of deal I have. Or talk about how. Because one of the things that I recall saying, I have no incentive to do anything else to help you make more money. Because how could that articulate itself in sports?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, first of all, it is the NBA has a bit of that model. So it's already sort of standard for some leagues. And so I think this is going to be a precedent for other major professional women's sports leagues. And you know, the only one that's close to us in size is the nwsl. So I can see their unions taking some notes from this.

[Kara Swisher]

So the WNBA league ownership is divided. The NBA owns 42%, team owners own 42% and outside investors own the remaining 16. Explain how the ownership of the league makes internal decisions when it comes to things like CBA or expanding the league. Because you're dealing with a lot of stakeholders and obviously not everyone is going to see eye to eye, right?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, that's a big question. I think the way we work with the NBA is it's a collaborative kind of relationship. But the WNBA makes its own decisions, but in consultation because we do use some of the infrastructure of the NBA. But certainly as the WNBA gets more self sustaining on its own, it's natural, of course, that it's going to have more independence. But in the early days, the NBA was essential to the survival of this league. I mean, it really sustained it and subsidized it for a long time. And I still think that there are some advantages of being tied to the NBA. This media deal, like we did it together. And I think that it also, you know, when you have, we play in the summer, the NBA plays in the winter and you can offer a year round package to a media partner. I mean, there's a lot of strengths, right, in having a united front together. You know, we also have some other shareholders and you know, something like that. I think it's, it's important to say that not that long ago this league was really struggling and it needed outside capital to grow. And so when you need capital and you want someone to share that risk, it means you have to share the upside when that happens.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So that's a trade off that every league that's growing has to think about. And in our case, the NBA really created and sustained the league and was a big part of where we are today. And the outside capital providers also provided us capital that we needed to grow. And is another structure possible? I mean, I think the question really is thinking about that if you were going to change your structure, you would have to buy people out at market value. And the market value has increased significantly.

[Kara Swisher]

Has increased. Do you see that happening or does it.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I think there's discussions, you know, we had a lot of things to get done before we could have that discussion. Like the cba.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, the cba, which is true. But also the WNBA board of governors recently approved expansion teams in Detroit, Cleveland and Philadelphia. In a post on that website, X Sports writer and podcast host Bill Simmons called the move, quote, staggeringly stupid and an unapologetic money grab that will immediately make the league worse. End quote.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I don't see that at all.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Some critics argue spansion dilutes the talent. Explain the strategy and why is Bill Simmons wrong? And by the way, Bill Simmons sometimes is wrong, but never in doubt.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So I think expansion is really good for the league. I think that it's new markets, it's more games, it's more fans, it's more content. And ultimately it's going to increase media value and it's going to allow us to have better media packages. And that's really important for this league. We need to grow the fan base. And I don't really worry about diluting the talent because those of you who follow the WNBA know that so many people that go to training camp or who get drafted, even like, are cut from the team before the first game starts. And so, you know, we actually need to.

[Kara Swisher]

You think there's a pipeline of talent.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

There is a pipeline of talent.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. Take his side. What would be the best argument against expanding even more? And these are terrific cities and these are sports cities, by the way.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

And also, I mean, the only thing is if they wouldn't invest and they didn't actually market the stars and do everything that you needed, or if he felt like the fans weren't. But all the metrics are consistently pointing in the other direction. The fans are there, they want it, the investors want to invest. I think actually the league was only looking for one expansion team and there were 13 bids and they were so strong that they took three.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. And certainly could expand even more. Do you see that happening?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I think I like the pace we're at because we've got these expansion drafts. And yes, it is true, we've taken a long time to build our roster and then we have to. We can't protect everybody. So some people go and it's very difficult. So I think that we have to phase it and we are. So there's two new teams coming on this year and then the other teams will come just year by year by

[Kara Swisher]

year so that it builds over time.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

It builds over time.

[Kara Swisher]

So the WNBA also signed, as you said, a record $2.2 billion, 11 year media rights deal with broadcasters in 2024. Nobel laureate Claudia Goldin advised the WNBA union on the new collective bargaining agreement and she believed the television deal should have brought in more for the WNBA. As a comparison, the NBA's deal with the same partners is around 75 billion. Why are the men's rates worth 34

[Clara Wu Tsai]

times the women's rights? Can I say. I will just get to the chase and say this is why we're poised to grow. Right. Because the revenues on the women's sports haven't caught up with the viewership. And that's the investment opportunity, because it is true, like the WNBA viewership is a meaningful fraction of the NBA's viewership, but we are a tiny fraction of the media deal. And by the way, we don't have to get to the size of the NBA. Just even a little bit of an increase is going to create enormous value. So that's why I just think women's sports in general is a great investment opportunity because women's sports in general have been under invested in and under monetized with respect to the level of talent and the fan engagement, frankly, that there is.

[Kara Swisher]

And besides the TV deals and the fans and the merch and the various sponsorships that you have, where do you. Is there another monetization opportunity global?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Absolutely. Globally.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll talk about that.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

But before I do that, I want to make sure that I make this point about why I think media rights will continue to grow. And I think it's because live sports, I think, is going to become increasingly valuable. Because in a world where content is becoming infinite, AI is making sure that content is abundant, infinite and predictable. Live sports is the opposite of that. Live sports is by nature finite, and it's also unpredictable.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Like the recent college games and the fact that unpredictable and anything can happen that creates, like, emotional investment, emotional connection among the fans.

[Kara Swisher]

Very good point.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

And so the fact that the world is becoming flooded with content, that really just increases the value of live sports. So I think what that means for team owners is we're going to see it in two places. We're going to see more people coming to the building to go to games, but we're also going to see more people watching. So I just think that there's rising demand and limited supply, and that's why I'm very positive on the future.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to ask about the Human Performance alliance in a second, but how do you look at technology in that? Obviously, everyone's talking about AI and maybe the use of it isn't as big as the hype necessarily at this point. I remember interviewing people years ago, two decades ago. Oh, it's going to be in all the seats. Technology is the most important part. What do you think is promising and what are your. Let's take a second.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I think it's important to be up on the latest technology. And, you know, we're getting. People are coming to us with all sorts of technology all the time. I think the last place that we put it in our arena, we have, like, facial recognition. Right. So you can actually get into the arena faster based on. Okay. And so that's really good for operations and, like, your flow.

[Kara Swisher]

Sure.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

There are some arenas, like Steve Ballmer's arena, like that one is really kitted out. And you can. I think you can also vote from your seat and do all these things. I don't know. I think it's important. But right now we're leaning heavily into the live experience and the energy in the building. I mean, I don't want to. I feel like people come to games now not just for the competition on the court, but they come because they want community and they want to feel connection. They want to be part of the live experience. And I think that's also like a, you Know, and I think for us, if you go to a Liberty game, you know, you feel people are super engaged and the energy, the energy is really high. And that's really driven by the fans. Like the fans are, you know, they're there, they're loud, they really know the game. And when people go and they experience that, that's what makes them feel like they want to be a part of that experience. And so I, you know, we're really leaning into the play and the competition on the court, the fan experience, creating some energy that's gonna draw people in. Ellie and all of our mascots, all of our entertainment is really built to create an experience that people can relate

[Kara Swisher]

to within the arena.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Within the arena.

[Kara Swisher]

What's been brought to you? Cause you see, I get pitched tons and tons of stuff and what do you look at that you were intrigued by? And what do you look at and say, especially the technological things. Get the fuck outta here. Get out of my.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

No, I would love an, I would love, you know, an AI person to help a ticket salesperson to know this person and be able to say all the right things that the person's going to convert and buy a season ticket. You know, that, that I think is, is, is really valuable.

[Kara Swisher]

But not an AI person talking to that person, right?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

No, I hope not. But you know, somebody in your ear who can say like this is, this is.

[Kara Swisher]

So it's all back end. Is that you look at it, but not within the extra experience.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

No, I mean we don't, you know, we still have human people like serving you and pouring your drink.

[Kara Swisher]

No robots.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

No, no, not yet.

[Kara Swisher]

Elon Musk said there's going to be a million of them deployed this year.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I've seen them. And they're in the airports. Yeah. Making coffee.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And

[Clara Wu Tsai]

I do, I'm a Chemex pour over girl. I'm old fashioned.

[Kara Swisher]

So I. Okay. All right,

[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

we'll be back in a minute.

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[Kara Swisher]

Let's talk about the Human Performance alliance and then we'll get to a couple questions from the audience before we go. It's a major research initiative you launched in 2021. This is a six university scientific collaboration focusing on the study of the human body. It's healthiest working with top athletes. I just debuted a show on CNN called Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever about longevity. Some of it's charlatanism, some is misinformation, and then what's really promising. So why do you decide to take this approach? Because most people aren't elite athletes. Some of the research probably just applies only to top athletes, but does it help the broader population? Talk a little bit about what you're doing here. Yeah, well, and I appreciate your scientific focus.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah. So the Human Performance alliance is a scientific research initiative and it's focused on understanding how the body performs. So how the body moves, adapts, recovers, fatigues over time. And we study people at peak health in top form in order to understand what drives performance and also what leads to injury. Okay. And so the reason that we started this is because as team owners, you see athletes sideline and you see the cost of sideline athletes and you realize that there's so little about the human body that, you know. And for these professional athletes, right, Their. Their career longevity, their health. Right, Their. Their health and their performance and their longevity is their greatest asset. So we thought, okay, well, here's an opportunity to invest in research around injury prevention and rehabilitation and recovery. Not just to extend the careers of pro athletes, but then we could learn some principles that could also translate into that word health span to a better health span.

[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Health span versus lifespan.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Right. Because all this stuff we learned, there's a big delta. Yes, there is.

[Kara Swisher]

Fifteen years.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Right. So when you study healthy people, then you can. It's a lot of. There are a lot of implications and things that we can gain in the areas of performance and also recovery and ultimately longevity. It will help people stave off chronic pain. Anyway, by the way, a lot of stuff we're doing is like around prediction, like predicting injury or individualized training.

[Kara Swisher]

Exactly.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Where it's going. That's where it's going. And all that is going to help athletes, but it's going to help all of us.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. You know, this organ clock thing that you can tell. Eventually you'll be able to say your liver. You will get liver cancer at 52. And this is what will precipitate. I mean, that's the goal. But each organ, not the body as a whole. But only about 6% of sports science research is conducted exclusively on women. Despite a dramatic rise in women's sports in the past 50 years, the alliance's female athlete focused program is attempting to address that gap. There's no one in this lane. Essentially, talk about what you've learned overall, and then specifically with rim. And how will the new research be applied? How long before you get things that are applicable in prevention and treatment?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

A while, but that's because we're starting with the research because as you noticed in the series that you've done, a lot of people are starting to peddle protocols and supplements before the science.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Wellness grifters is what I call them.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So we're starting with the science and making sure that we're doing the clinical studies where we can really.

[Kara Swisher]

The gold standard one.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah. Right. But the goal, though, is translation. Right. And we want to have protocols and therapeutics and tools that will help athletes and you and me.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So. But how long is that delta? I mean, it can be 10. It can be a long time.

[Kara Swisher]

So this is for the long.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

It is long term, but if you want to do it. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

That's the way it has to be.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. You're never Going to make it on Instagram, Clara. But go ahead.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

But I don't have Instagram.

[Kara Swisher]

I know I'm teasing you.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So I would say, like, so we're five years into this 10 year commitment. And I can tell you that, you know, what I've learned in five years is informing how I want to spend the next five years of the alliance. And I think there's, like, for me, three big unsolved challenges. One is predicting injury before it happens. Because right now we're reactive and we treat afterward.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So now we're full on into building the digital twin. Right? A digital twin that can tell you what is going to happen to your body before it happens and what to do about it.

[Kara Swisher]

So replacing sick care with health care. But go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Okay. This is predictive and leading to prevention. And the second unsolved challenge is this personalized exercise medicine or individualized training and recovery protocols. Because right now most training prescriptions, well, they're based on population averages. And so we eventually have to get to this point where. And we are there because we have scientists at Salk Institutes that are studying molecules that regulate nutrition and fatigue and metabolism. And so we're getting to this place where you'll be able to tell each individual person what exercise they need to do at what time of day with what kind of recovery. So that's another area. And the third big unsolved challenge is this data gap, this gender gap in human physiology knowledge. Because as you pointed out, I mean, women's sports is growing so fast and the science and the research is just catching up. But you see that because so much of the sports science has been done on men and then just transferred to women. It's why we don't understand why menstrual cycles and hormones, we don't understand what the impact of that is on performance and recovery. We also don't understand why some injuries like ACL tears or bone stress fractures happen more to women than men. And so we basically need more data on female athlete physiology and ultimately so that we can have better precision models for women because otherwise they won't be very accurate.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. It's absolutely true. It's amazing. And at 10 years, you will renew or.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

We'll see.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll see. Would you get it?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Practical things. All right, we're going to have some questions in the audience and I have a final question. When will the NBA play its first regular season games overseas? Is that provided for in the cba?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

First of all, yeah, I didn't talk about Global. And global is. It's early for the WNBA because we have so much domestic growth ahead of us. We have these two new teams coming on this year and three more. But it's early, but it's sizable and really important. So, I mean, first of all, Toronto is starting this year. So that's global. That's our first international game.

[Kara Swisher]

I think WNBA Europe, they're asking specifically.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, WNBA Europe, that's. I mean, they're only doing NBA Europe right now, but I could see that further on in the distance. I think, you know, the immediate goals would be to start getting some global media distribution and to really start promoting the stars globally. And naturally it's going to be foreign players who play in this league. I think right now there's 23% of the players in our league are foreign born in the NBA. It's 30%. And you can see how global the NBA is right now. So, you know, we're there, we're on our way. I think that percentage of foreign talent is going to grow.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

And so I think it's really about promoting the international stars in their home countries, but it's also, you know, globalizing the stars that are here, that are here.

[Kara Swisher]

So Canada. All right. When do you see the NBA season expanding beyond the number of games negotiated in the cba? How do you feel about players playing overseas or elsewhere in the off season?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, we're. This CBA allows us to get to 52 games per year. We're at 44. I think one of the great things about this CBA is it is going to allow players to actually build a career in the wnba. Like fewer will have to go overseas to make a living. And that's really good because they can stay in market, they can be in front of fans and they can work on their own development.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

So I think that the fact that the salary has gone up has given players a lot more choices. Her question was or this question was, will there be play off season?

[Kara Swisher]

How do you feel?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, how do I feel? Well, I. Well, I like players to stay in market. I like them to stay in the US because it keeps our players in front of fans. Unrivaled is an example of a league that's well run and it's.

[Kara Swisher]

Does the new salary cap and media deal and play a fall off of the unrivaled league or not? No, that's a question here.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

It's a question for a player.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. This is something to do with both the NBA two questions. This is one. What is the Main challenge in navigating a WNBA team versus an NBA team. Are there distinct differences? And then if Liberty is in a growth mode, where are the Nets? How are you reinvigorating the team after years of rebuilding?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, the WNBA is so energizing right now because we're in growth mode, and we're in build. You're building something, and you can innovate and do things that have never been done. You're building new audiences. So that's very exciting. You know, you can try things that you haven't done in the NBA. Okay. And so on the NBA side, the talent is incredible. You know, again, like, you see it in the college level. And so I think it's really. Personally, I think it's really exciting when you have young players. You know, like, we are in a rebuild year, but I think a lot of our fans are trained in the NBA to be really patient. They're really loyal to the team, but they understand. And they also see models.

[Podcast Announcer/Ad Reader]

Right.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

They see the Oklahoma City Thunder, and they can see how when you rebuild with young stars that you've drafted, you can actually create a championship team. And your fans are, you know, they see that, and they, you know, and they believe that's possible for your team as well. So that's what we're doing. We've been pretty open about it, about wanting to draft well this year. And, you know, we have players that we drafted last year that are really strong, and we're looking, you know, for both of our teams, we're looking for the long term.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, one more question for the audiences. They sort of belong together, too. How do you engage audiences authentically through cultural sensitivity when looking at growing the audience and bringing in, presumably, younger people. And then Ellie the elephant is iconic. Who deserves credit for the liberty? Having the best mascot in any league? Talk about that idea of cultural sense when growing this audience. Because you want more.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

We do, but, you know, we're based in Brooklyn, and we made a decision to have all of our entertainment and our team really rooted in Brooklyn culture. And. And Brooklyn is a place where 200 languages are spoken.

[Kara Swisher]

It is.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

And it's one of the most diverse places in the country, if not the planet. So, you know, when you lean into Brooklyn culture, you know, all of our theme nights and our timeless torches and everything we have around the game really reflects the spirit of the borough. So we're very intentional about that. And because we can do that, because Brooklyn is so diverse, we naturally promote diversity. Ellie is, you know, she's connective tissue I mean she's part of, you know, I think I was saying earlier about how people come to sports games to connect with people and to have a joyful experience. And I think Ellie has this. She has charisma and she has personality and she's one of the reasons why she creates that joyful atmosphere that people have. Kind of associate now with the Liberty games.

[Kara Swisher]

She's really important. They are a lot of fun. I was joking with Clara was asking Adam Silver apparently told her I didn't like sports and it's actually factual. And at the same time I love the business of sports and I like the elephant quite a bit. I enjoy, I like everything else except the game.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Well, now there's so much. See that's the thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Also your food and candy is on point.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Right, so that's exactly it. So Ellie bridges that. She actually bridges that traditional sports fan and the more casual fan.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, exactly. So last question. We're in a moment when investment is converging with growing fan base and public enthusiasm. How does the excitement around women's sports become a sustainable long term commitment, not just a trend? How should everyone, the front office, coaches, owners and players take advantage of the momentum while staying true to the values? What is the thing you think about most because you want it to be for the long term, as you noted?

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Yeah, I don't think it's a bubble at all. I think women's sports is moving to a rerating because I do feel that women's sports has been underinvested in and under monetized. And so I think that there's a real opportunity as revenues catch up. So I think. But it is important that we price to value. But I also think that for all the reasons I mentioned about, well, this unique, the young audience that comes to our games that all the advertisers and media want to reach, all the sponsors want to reach. I mean, you know, that's. And also what I mentioned about why live sports is so valuable. I mean, I think that there's reasons why revenue should grow that are beyond macro trends that I think make this an exciting place to be. But I also want to mention that sophisticated capital is coming into this area as well. And there are these dedicated funds that invest only in women's sports. And so that in itself is also just showing that it's being underwritten as its own asset class.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Well, thank you so much for talking about this. A great interview. Clara Wu Tsai, thank you so much for joining me.

[Clara Wu Tsai]

Thank you.

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Have you ever wanted career advice from Kara Swisher. Maybe you haven't, but I bet you do a little bit. So now's your chance. Send a selfie video of your question to onoxmedia.com and you may be featured in an upcoming special episode. Today's show was produced by Christian Castro Roselle, Michelle Eloy, Katherine Milsop, Megan Birney, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Bradley Sylvester, Sam Lee, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, that's a slam dunk. If not, we're calling a flagrant.

[Sue Bird]

Go.

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Wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.