TMZ’s Harvey Levin Says Politics Is Pop Culture

Summary

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Podcast Summary: On with Kara Swisher

Episode: TMZ’s Harvey Levin Says Politics Is Pop Culture
Date: June 22, 2026
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Harvey Levin, Founder and Executive Director of TMZ

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Kara Swisher and Harvey Levin, founder of TMZ. The discussion delves into TMZ’s evolution from a celebrity news outlet to an aggressive, multi-platform organization that now covers politics with a pop culture lens. Harvey discusses the thinking behind opening a Washington, D.C. bureau, the shifting boundaries between politics and celebrity, ethical standards, and TMZ’s approach to scoops, scandals, and the future of media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. TMZ’s Expansion into Politics

• Delayed Launch of TMZ DC: Harvey shares that the original aim to cover political figures as celebrities was delayed for years due to ownership concerns over regulatory backlash.
  • “Warner Brothers killed it twice... they were afraid that we might piss off a congressman who they needed... for some regulatory act or whatever.” (05:02)
• Nonpartisan Approach: TMZ DC launched during a government shutdown when outrage was high over Congress taking a recess, framing the coverage nonpartisan.
  • “We were nonpartisan, and we just put it out there ... People were angry and they wanted to see something like this.” (08:26)
• Pop Culture as the Umbrella: Harvey resists the idea that politicians are merely celebrities, instead arguing, “Pop culture is politics... they are an integral part of pop culture. So to me, it has never been a stretch.” (13:00)

2. TMZ’s Story Selection, Staffing, and Standard Practices

• Story Criteria: A TMZ political story isn’t about policy minutiae but showing what makes public figures tick—personality over protocol.
  • “Don’t pretend like you’re a White House correspondent... just be yourselves.” (13:53)
• Staff Selection: Charlie Cotton and Jacob Wasserman were chosen for their authenticity and conversational skills, with Harvey crediting casting as “90 plus percent” of their success. (15:18)

3. TMZ’s Interview Style & Ethics

• Relentless Questioning: Harvey admires his reporters’ willingness to push past politicians’ evasions, citing an example with Ted Cruz:
  • “Charlie... would not let it go. And Cruz got very angry... And Charlie didn't back off.” (11:39)
• Paying for Tips vs. Photos: TMZ does not pay for interviews or tips, only for media assets like photos or videos, aligning with industry standards.
  • “We don't do that. We don't live off of that. What we do pay for is video and photos. And we have done that from day one. Guess what? So does everybody else.” (31:47)
• Fact-Checking and Boundaries: Stories are heavily vetted, and standards remain the same in D.C. as in Hollywood. The team rejects tips that violate privacy, laws, or seem “bedroom police.” (33:44, 34:40)

4. TMZ and Political Power/Influence

• Impact on Spencer Pratt’s Mayoral Bid: TMZ both scrutinized and broke stories about Pratt, which Harvey insists was about honesty rather than advocacy.
  • “What we did with Spencer Pratt was we just tried to view him as honestly as we could.” (47:28)
• Non-Tribalism: Harvey criticizes the polarization in media, suggesting coverage shouldn’t equate to unwavering support or opposition for individuals. (46:17)

5. Audience, Social Media, and Platform Evolution

• Serving Varied Interests: TMZ’s mix of serious and light stories lets audiences “scroll down” for what they desire, mirroring television pacing.
  • “If you don't like this. Scroll down. You might like that.” (44:27)
• Future Focus: TMZ is investing in streaming, social media, and Gen Z/Alpha talent, predicting rapid change and possible obsolescence of current formats due to tech like AI.
  • “Where do you go next? And I think you evolve or you die.” (55:15)

6. Journalism’s Changing Landscape

• Mainstreaming of TMZ Style: Harvey notes that “mainstream media has become more like TMZ”—morning show hosts now routinely ask “tabloid” questions. (57:17)
• Storytelling as Core: Through every platform transition, Harvey argues the core is compelling storytelling tailored to the strengths of the medium.
  • “You just look at... storytelling. It’s all about... how do you tell good stories on both?” (55:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Corporate Fear in Politics Coverage
  “AOL in particular… was afraid that we might piss off a congressman who they needed… for some regulatory act.”
  — Harvey Levin (05:02)

• On Why TMZ’s Style Resonated in D.C.
  “We were nonpartisan… and we telegraphed it and people responded.”
  — Harvey Levin (08:26)

• On Changing Attitudes to Politician Coverage
  “Do not pretend like you’re a White House correspondent… dress the same way, act the same way. In fact, don't act. Just be yourselves.”
  — Harvey Levin (13:53)

• On Persistence in Reporting
  “The biggest friend that you have to me in journalism is the telephone… you should make 100 phone calls a day.”
  — Harvey Levin (41:20)

• On TMZ’s Personality vs. Voice
  “I wanted us to have a personality… somebody can be really serious at one time, funny another time, even snarky at another time.”
  — Harvey Levin (28:30)

• On the Audience’s Appetite
  “You just answered it by saying you can have both at once. And I think that's the point, that you can.”
  — Harvey Levin (44:19)

• On Future Media
  “I think you evolve or you die... things are moving so quickly that I don’t know what it’s going to be like in five years. Is AI going to so transform things?”
  — Harvey Levin (55:15, 59:39)

• On Media Imitating TMZ
  "Mainstream media has become more like TMZ... they're doing the same thing."
  — Harvey Levin (57:38)

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Important Timestamps

• 04:33 – Start of interview, revisiting early plans for D.C. political coverage
• 07:59 – Viral Lindsey Graham Disney World moment and launch context
• 13:00 – Pop culture as a framing for politics
• 17:44 – Harvey’s relationship with Trump and political objectivity
• 28:30 – TMZ’s blend of serious and lowbrow stories; the “personality” ethos
• 31:47 – Policy on paying for tips vs. media assets
• 33:44 – Editorial standards and story vetting
• 41:10 – The basics of reporting: “network and get to know these people”
• 44:19 – Balancing hard news with lighter stories for varied audiences
• 46:17 – Critique of tribalism in political/media culture
• 55:15 – Vision for TMZ’s future and adaptations to new media
• 57:17 – How mainstream outlets are adopting TMZ’s style
• 59:39 – The accelerating pace of media tech change and speculation on AI’s impact

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Engagement & Style Notes

• The interview flows like a candid conversation: frank talk about ethics, business strategy, and the emotional charge in both celebrity and political news.
• Kara and Harvey banter with mutual respect, challenge each other’s views, and inject humor, especially around long-standing media rivalries and the blurring of news and entertainment.
• Harvey frequently credits his staff, appearing hands-on but willing to let new hires innovate.
• Kara highlights both TMZ’s seriousness and its irreverence, underscoring how lines in media have blurred.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a compelling examination of the convergence of politics and pop culture, revealing Harvey Levin’s vision for TMZ as both watchdog and entertainer. Through stories, standards, and strategy, TMZ seeks to redefine what news can be—both in Washington and beyond. Whether or not you’re a fan of celebrity journalism, the episode is a fascinating look at modern media’s role in shaping public perception of power.

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Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

You don't know this maybe about me, but I used to do parties for the Washington Post. They used to cover parties.

[Harvey Levin]

I did know that that was my

[Kara Swisher]

coming up job, was like, can I get Ted Kennedy to throw a drink in my face kind of stuff or something like that. He spilled a drink on me once. Hi, everyone from New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is TMZ founder and Executive Director Harvey Levin, a lawyer and TV legal analyst. Harvey started a celebrity news site, TMZ, in 2005, which is where I met him. He's since expanded into a multi platform business that includes television streaming, podcasts, social media channels, documentaries, and celebrity bus tours. TMZ set itself apart from traditional tabloids by what it didn't cover. No red carpets, weddings and junkets. Instead, it leaned on aggressive investigative reporting and ethically dubious methods to some, including possibly paying sources. Although that's something Harvey argues about to land some of the biggest celebrity scoops of the past two decades. This spring, TMZ expanded its political news coverage and opened up a bureau in Washington, D.C. according to a post on TMZ, the reporters plan to, quote, explore the intersection between pop culture and politics. I have interviewed Harvey many times, way back when I was at the Wall Street Journal and I really noticed what he was doing with that website, which I thought was highly innovative. And later at my code conference, always thought he was a really interesting media entrepreneur. I love media entrepreneurs and I do think he gets a little bit of a. Of a hit just because he talks about celebrities. He's broken a lot of stories. He did amazing work in covering Spencer Pratt and was the one to write about some of the hypocritical stuff that Pratt was doing. And they've done a pretty good job in D.C. and I actually am enjoying what they're doing and seeing what they're doing, and they've got a lot of energy around them that I appreciate, and they actually do quite a lot of reporting. Our expert question comes from Ashley Parker, a staff writer of the Atlantic, who herself is an amazing reporter. So stick around. We've all been there. You pop into the shop for five minutes and all of a sudden you've forgotten where you parked.

[Harvey Levin]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Harvey Levin]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Harvey Levin]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Harvey Levin]

I am so pleased to be able to talk to you. We go back to the beginning of tmz.

[Kara Swisher]

We do. Let's talk about what you're doing now. TMZ has never drawn a line between politicians and celebrities. As TMZ's head of legal affairs said, quote, we've always viewed politicians to just be another branch of the celebrity tree. End quote. And you had ambitions early on to establish presence in D.C. and you finally did in April. What took so long because you, you had talked about it even back then.

[Harvey Levin]

Warner Brothers killed it twice. We were owned by Warner Brothers, by Telepictures. And in 2000, I think it was 2008, I said I wanted to do TMZ DC and at the time we were with AOL, it was a partnership between Telepictures and AOL. And I went back and forth to Washington, hired a staff. We were going to have our launch dinner and open our office the next morning. And I got a call just before leaving for dinner saying, I got some bad news for you. We're killing it. And they killed it. What I later found out was that AOL in particular, although I think Warner Brothers as well, but AOL in particular, they were worried because of regulations, that they were afraid that we might piss off a congressman who they needed, you know, for some regulatory act or whatever. And the more they talked about it, the more scared they got. And they killed it. I mean, this is classic corporate culture. And so they killed it twice when we were over there at Warner Brothers. And, you know, this came about, Kara, really spontaneously, that when Congress could not pass the budget to fund homeland security, Charles and I interviewed a woman who worked at tsa, and she was about to lose her apartment, her car was going to get repossessed, her mental health had gone down the tubes. And we are standing there talking to her and knowing that they were going to take a two week Easter recess. And I was so outraged, we just said, look, this is unacceptable. And if anybody out there gets photographs of any member of Congress, Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter, on vacation, send us the pictures and we are going to put them up and juxtapose that against people like this woman who. Exactly right.

[Kara Swisher]

And so who's your ownership now that you're able to do this then?

[Harvey Levin]

We're owned by fox.

[Kara Swisher]

Fox. Right, right. And so. And they got it in the. Which deal? Which deal was it? How did it get over there?

[Harvey Levin]

Five years ago, Warner Brothers sold it to Fox. And honestly, they've been great and they haven't imposed any pressure on us. We did this with, you know, the two weeks that Congress was out.

[Kara Swisher]

So it was an opportunity.

[Harvey Levin]

It just totally felt like this is the moment.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And in late March, during this partial government shutdown, you asked travelers to send in pictures. And there's a gallery on TMZ's website that includes a viral photo of Lindsey Graham at Disney World holding a Little Mermaid bubble wand, which I really enjoyed very much.

[Harvey Levin]

It was the first day of recess, we got this picture and I'm just thinking, oh, my God. So we just said, look, this is the moment. And we put it together in two weeks, right?

[Kara Swisher]

And what do you think hit with it? Because it really had a reaction. And everyone was like, well, besides the Wand, which was so fantastic and perfect in so many ways. But what was it? Because is there an audience for random congresspeople at airport? What do you think worked there from your. From making content all these years?

[Harvey Levin]

It was nonpartisan. And, you know, things have become so tribal in media where you only go after Republicans if you're a certain, you know, channel. You go after Democrats if you're another. And we were nonpartisan, and we just put it out there and we really felt the outrage and we telegraphed it and people responded. People were angry and they wanted to see something like this. And again, it just felt like the right time to launch TMZ dc.

[Kara Swisher]

So you had it in the works again, or had it been on a shelf or you just said, we're just gonna do this. Cause we're so irritated. I mean. Cause that's not a business plan.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, there was no business plan. There are two people in my organization that I felt were just perfect for this. And I thought, I'm gonna make a. I'm gonna do something with them where I'm gonna move them to Washington, D.C. and we made that decision very quickly. We put them up in an Airbnb for the first month, and they just hit the ground running. And it started with both of them having books of pictures of the various members of Congress. And now they know everybody. And it's been two months.

[Kara Swisher]

This is Charlie Cotton and Jacob Wasserman. And Charlie just told Politico that people should know as much about public officials as they know about the Real Housewives. Correct.

[Harvey Levin]

He's right.

[Kara Swisher]

And what's wrong in the way news organizations cover politicians? You don't know this maybe about me, but I used to do parties for the Washington Post. They used to do parties.

[Harvey Levin]

I did know that.

[Kara Swisher]

And that's what it reminds me of. It's a little funny. It's very cutting. Sometimes it puts, you know, hypocrisy. Sometimes it's just a joke. And they stopped really doing that. And that was my coming up job, was like, can I get Ted Kennedy to throw a drink in my face? Kind of stuff. Or like, get a moment or something like that. He spilled a drink on me once. But, you know, it was a lot of this stuff, and I always thought it was very revelatory. What do you think is wrong with the way news organizations cover politicians?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, I mean, I think part of it is that they. That everybody is in one lane and, you know, it's so policy oriented that you don't kind of open things up to understand what's behind it. And sometimes when you understand the people and where they're coming from, it gives you an insight into why they're doing what they're doing. You know, most of the time we're not having these contentious conversations with people, but occasionally we do. And we pissed Ted Cruz off something fierce once where we were asking him about the. The fund, the slush fund that Donald Trump wanted to create and he did not want to answer. And Charlie, I think very respectfully, would not let it go. And Cruz got very angry. And I think. And what really struck me about that, Carrie, is that a lot of times when a politician gets angry, the reporter either backs off or changes the subject. And Charlie didn't back off.

[Kara Swisher]

He didn't.

[Harvey Levin]

But he wasn't disrespectful. And it was revelatory. For me, it is completely. Yeah, that, that there are ways of, you know, forcing issues that need to be talked about that, you know, I see this sometimes with White House news conferences where they'll ask a question, it get deflected, they may do a follow up and if they deflect again, they just drop it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. Because they're not. They think they aren't getting the answer. Right. And it's also the stick to itiveness of doing it. But would TMZ celebrity framing approach to politics worse without a President Trump in office? I mean, the man is a one man oompa band.

[Harvey Levin]

I think it would have worked with Obama. I think it absolutely would have worked with Obama. And that's when we wanted to launch. So I.

[Kara Swisher]

Why explain that from your perspective?

[Harvey Levin]

Because there was a freshness to Obama coming into office and kind of more of an openness. At least it felt that way. And people were excited, they wanted to talk about it. There were people who were upset about it. And I think that was a real moment. And that's why I wish we could have launched back then. So I think this would have worked with Obama. And I do want to just say one thing that, you know, you're referring to this as, you know, politicians being a form of celebrities, right? Yeah. I don't view it that way.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Harvey Levin]

I view it as pop culture. We cover pop culture. And pop culture can be a lot of things. You know, it can be sports, it can be entertainment, and pop culture is politics. Because a lot of the things that affect everybody emanates from Washington D.C. and it emanates from the courts, it emanates from Congress, from the president, and it affects all of us. So they are integral part of pop culture. So to me, it has never been a stretch.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So there's a mix of political stories on the site. Just looking at interviews from lawmakers on Capitol Hill. There's funny stuff, there's Iran war coverage. What makes something a TMZ politics story? And why'd you pick these two? You told me an interesting story when we were having drinks recently.

[Harvey Levin]

Why did we pick Charlie and Jacob?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, and also what makes it a TMZ politics story? Cause it's a range of things on your site.

[Harvey Levin]

Well, you know, I start with the negative. What I tell what I've told Jacob and Charlie is do not pretend like you're a White House correspondent or somebody covering the Hill. You know, the reason I sent them there is because they are fantastic and they are authentic and they are different from everybody in Washington D.C. they don't have to act a certain way because this is the way you act when you're a reporter in dc. I just told them, dress the same way, act the same way. In fact, don't act. Just be yourselves. Charlie has done this, you know, done interviews with people for a dozen years. So he's really good. Not at interviews, but having conversations. And I think that's the distinction. Charlie is fabulous at just having a conversation and letting things kind of flow. I'm not trying to blow smoke, Kara, but you did that so incredibly well with your series on CNN that you just followed the conversation. You didn't have an outline. And I saw it when I watched you. And I know I was bugging you, texting you, telling you how good you were, but that is a skill that a lot of people don't have. They get pre programmed to doing things.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, that's true. You do have a strategy, more than you think. But I see your point. And then what about Jacob? Why did you assign him there?

[Harvey Levin]

Because I saw glimmers of that with Jacob and he didn't have the experience out in the field, but there was something. He loves politics. And he's just such a unique character that I thought I'd roll the dice on him. And I just cannot believe how good he is. I am so proud of them. And this is 90 plus percent casting. That's what this is. And they are a. As far as I'm concerned. I'm so proud of them.

[Kara Swisher]

What is a story? Is it just anything? Because it can range. How do you look at what a TMZ story is over something else?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, it can be anything. I mean, you know, when they got invited to a Pentagon News conference. And so Jacob, look, I mean, they're at the Pentagon. I mean, what's TMZ doing at the Pentagon? So Jacob asked Hegseth, what goes through his mind and his body when he orders a military strike, when a bomb drops? Is it fear? Is it power? And that's, in fact, he even said, well, that's a TMZ question. And it is, because it's not necessarily asking about strategy of war and all the other things that the others reporters ask. But it just felt like we kind of want to know what makes this guy tick. Does he get a thrill? Does he get a charge out of it? Is he scared about it? You know, frankly, you're not trying to

[Kara Swisher]

do PR for them, right? You're trying to get to something real. Is that what you're saying?

[Harvey Levin]

Essentially, totally. We didn't get a good answer, but we tried.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, he's not a very thoughtful person. But let me ask you about the politics of it, because we are in such drastically political times, partisan times, and you've known President Trump for a long time and obviously he was on TMZ in the old world. You supported him during his first run in 2016. And two former staffers told Bloomberg in this piece in 2008 they were limited in covering Trump related scandals because Trump bashing wouldn't make it on the air. But according to the same Bloomberg piece, things changed after he had a falling out with him in 2018 over his efforts to ban transgender troops from serving in the military. Talk about your relationship. Do you think about it like that? I don't think you probably do, knowing you. But talk about that a little bit because people do question Rupert Murdoch or if you're an Ms. Now on the other side, do you think about that at all or how much influence do you have or do you use that influence?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, first of all, the scenario there is wrong. What happened was I was not so much supporting Trump as I was taking a position that was contrary to everybody else in the office. And also I did know him and I thought he wanted to be a one term president. And the person I knew was kind of a laissez faire guy. I mean, he knew I was gay. It was not an issue with him. You know, he felt to me, you know, in the 15 years I knew him before he ran, that he was kind of a live and let live guy. And that's not only my opinion, but I've talked to a lot of people who knew him back then, before he decided to run, who felt the same way. And so I thought he was on that topic.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, go ahead.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah. And I mean, I thought for better or worse he was going to be a one term president. And you know, he did it, he won, he'd do it for one term and then he'd leave. So literally the first day he says he's going to run for reelection, when that comes up. And I was alarmed. So I had a show on Fox called Objectified where I interviewed celebrities and world leaders and kind of used objects that they kept over the years to kind of get into their lives. And I wanted to interview Netanyahu at the time. So I was having breakfast in D.C. with Ron Dermer shortly after Trump became president and Ron Dermer was the Israeli ambassador to the United States. And I spent a good portion of that breakfast talking to him saying, I'm alarmed. What you know. Cuz I was going to go see Trump in the Oval Office later that morning and I said, what can I ask him to do that would be useful? Because I was alarmed at what I was hearing and Dermer and I talked about it. And what I ended up talking to Trump about was a, that you can't alienate the Black Caucus the way you are and that you should meet with John Lewis and other members of that coalition. Why would you want to create that kind of adversary relationship? They're important. And the second thing I wanted to talk to him about was the nonsense about transgender bathrooms, that it was a non issue, that he was trying to make a federal issue. And I walked out of there dissatisfied and really didn't have much contact. In fact, no contact with him after that. And that was February. I didn't have any contact with him because I was getting increasingly upset. I believe it was September of that year, 2017, when Donald Trump said, fire those sons of bitches, referring to Colin Kaepernick taking the knee. And I thought, I'm done. And that was it.

[Kara Swisher]

That was it. But it doesn't affect what you're covering here, correct? Do you want your reporters to have a point of view or just get to the info?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, I mean, look, I mean, a point of view. Do they. Should they have a point of view on the government going away without passing a bill so that people get fed?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Harvey Levin]

So, you know, I don't think it can be all or nothing, but I don't want them to be partisan and I want them to understand what makes these people tick.

[Kara Swisher]

So speaking of pop culture, that UFC fight at the White House was something of course capped off by this insult to Michelle Obama, which you all have covered. Talk a little bit about that, because now pop culture is front and center. I doubt another administration's gonna do it like this. Ultimately, people have come to you. Politics has come to you versus vice versa. Yeah, in that way.

[Harvey Levin]

First of all, that comment about Michelle Obama was disgusting. I will say this. And I did this today on our social media, and I'm just getting trashed like crazy, which is unsurprising.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, I'll trash you if I

[Harvey Levin]

have to, but go ahead and if you want to have Ashley, but believe me, I know you, and I know you will. I don't have a problem with a UFC event at the White House, and I'll tell you why. Presidents have always held gala events. You know, Obama had Hamilton come to the White House. Reagan had Frank Sinatra sing, and, you know, you could go on and on and on. The reality is, you know, UFC may or may not be your taste, but it is wildly popular in America.

[Kara Swisher]

I would agree.

[Harvey Levin]

And there's also diversity in ufc. There's diversity with the fighters. It crosses lots of lines. And I think there's an element of elitism when people say, oh, this is below the dignity of the White House. It's an event. And, you know, he invited military folks, and, you know, it's something that is very popular. And just the way Ronald Reagan liked Frank Sinatra and Obama liked Hamilton. Why can't Donald Trump like the ufc?

[Kara Swisher]

Agreed. Listen, you'll be surprised. I like MMA fighting. I do. I do. I thought they did it in a trashy way. That's my issue with it. And used a lot of federal resources and sold a lot of advertising. You don't see Obama putting up a Bud Light ad in the White House that. Let me read you. This is from Monica Hess from the Washington Post, who also likes mma, as I do. The problem isn't fighting on the lawn. People who love the UFC have had to sit through decades of presidents inviting poets and cellists and opera singers to the White House. And turnabout is fair play. The problem with Sunday's broadcast wasn't the fighting. The problem was a tonally incoherent emulsion of patriotism and bloodlust history and buy this crap event happening for the people, but tucked away behind a Paramount plus paywall. I kind of think that says it. It was not done for the people, and the people paid for it, like, essentially. And so that, to me, was the issue more than anything. But I agree with you. He should have whatever entertainment he wants about. I don't care.

[Harvey Levin]

And I agree with you on the Paramount plus business that, you know, this should have been an event open to everybody. And I think putting it behind a paywall, I think that's really wrong. But you know, it's funny, you think about the party that the DNC threw for John Kennedy in 1962 at Madison Square Garden with Marilyn Monroe coming out and singing and, you know, it was a spectacle as well. And there were some people who felt that at that time it was beneath the dignity of the office. So I don't think this is anything new.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. Although it was capped by that comment, which of course then changes the whole tone. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince. Summer makes you rethink the outfits you want to wear. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just look and feel good at the moment you put them on. And if you're looking to add more for your wardrobe, why not try Quint? They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton and washable silk, but without the luxury markup. Quince European linen pants and shirts are the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation starting at just $34. Their tees are soft and easy to wear and their lightweight cotton sweaters are perfect for cooler summer nights. I'm wearing one of their T shirts right now and I'm about to put on one of their lightweight cotton sweaters when I go on this trip. I'm about to go on. Plus, everything at Quint is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Besides the shirt and the T shirt and sweater I'm wearing, I brought a whole bunch of stuff for this trip. A lot of soft pants that I got from there. I use a lot of Quint's products. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.comkara for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com/cara for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.comcara support for this show comes from Framer. If your team wants a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship, Framer is built for that. You design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting and a CMS built in so the work is production ready from day one. Agents work alongside you, draft pages and polish sections then you review and publish what goes live. Framer is the pro site builder for creators, teams and businesses that want a professional site and care enough to get every detail right. Agents solve the gap between AI generated ideas and production ready website work. The agent works in the same place where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed and published. It lands on the canvas, stays editable, and can be published when the team is ready. Agents in Framer work alongside teams to streamline collaboration on the same canvas, build custom code components, create and manage CMS content, optimize SEO settings and ship everything all in one place. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free [e-mail] Kara for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com Kara for 30% OFF framer.com Cara rules and restrictions may apply. We all do it. You have a night for yourself, but don't like the sound of the silence. So you turn on the TV just for the ambiance. It's a little trick that helps you feel like you've got company and aren't alone. And other insurers, well, they may make you feel alone, but when you switch to geico, you've got claims reps available around the clock, so whenever you need, you'll have people around to help. And let's turn on the washing machine just for good measure. Isn't that soothing?

[Harvey Levin]

It feels good to have support. It feels good to Geico.

[Kara Swisher]

Let's talk a little bit about TMZ's beginnings and some of its earliest scoops. For people who don't know, TMZ developed a reputation for publishing scoops based on court documents. This was your background, by the way, police records and inside sources. In 2006 you broke the news and Mel Gibson went on an anti Semitic rant during a DUI arrest. In 2009, TMZ broke the news of Michael Jackson's death, reportedly based on information from a paramedic. You told me in 2009 this is when I was writing about it. To quote, we're a news organization that's aggressive and connected in town, and that's the same skill set as covering the Iran Iraq War. Talk about this approach because consequential stories appear on the site alongside photo series dedicated to sexy snapshots and celebrity butts. I have no problem with that. But talk a little bit about this because your background was legal and so it makes sense for you to go in that direction.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, you know, I Guess in crude terms, it's kind of high, low. There are a lot of media outlets that have a voice, that you have a certain voice and you stay in that lane. And I always thought, there's something wrong with that. It's too narrow. That if you have a voice, it means that there may be a really good story that's outside of your lane there, and you don't do it. You got to keep your voice. We never had a voice. What I wanted us to have was a personality. And a personality is somebody can be really serious at one time, funny another time, even snarky at another time. But when you have a personality, it opens it up to doing all sorts of things and not being confined to that one lane. So from the beginning, at least, my goal was that TMZ should have that personality. And I was worried, to be honest with you, when we broke the Mel Gibson story, you know, people started writing stories about us saying, oh, we're a serious outlet that is competing with so and so and so and so. And I thought, my God, we just don't want to lose our personality. So I doubled down to make sure that we kept doing those things so we didn't get pigeonholed into that voice.

[Kara Swisher]

What would be that personality then? I mean, obviously, you and I talked about this back then. You were accused of paying sources. You recently denied paying for tips and interviews, though. In 2009, you told me that you will, quote, pay a tip fee now and then. At one point, you reportedly paid $90,000 for a video of former NFL player Ray Rice punching his then fiance in the casino. Talk a little bit about this, because I think people think you're doing that in D.C. right now, like, paying for tips.

[Harvey Levin]

You know, look, I've seen these stories, and there. There was a story that came out that we're paying $100,000 per tip in Washington, D.C. it's ridiculous.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll give you some for a lot less. I have a lot of tips.

[Harvey Levin]

Hey, Kara, we could get them for free. Look, I was a news reporter in Los Angeles for 15 years before I started any of this and broke lots and lots of stories. And it's not about, oh, what do you do? Do you. Do you call random police stations up and say, hey, if you give me something, I'll give you $10,000? I mean, if we did that, you would hear about that over the last 21 years, and you haven't, because we don't. And, you know, the way that we get almost all of our stories is relationships that you know, we established relationships with lawyers in town, with every publicist in town, with celebrities, with police departments. And they will work with you. And I knew this when I was at KCBS in Los Angeles. They will always work with you if you're honest with them and if you break trust.

[Kara Swisher]

What would you call paying for a video? How would you look at that? I know people pay for photography. I know. Is it akin to that? How would you describe it? Because as you know, many standards of journalism is you do not pay for tips. Although lots of people have.

[Harvey Levin]

We don't do that. We don't live off of that. What we do pay for is video and photos. And we have done that from day one. Guess what? So does everybody else. And I kind of loved the fact that there were a lot of news organizations that came out and said, oh my God, TMZ is paying for videos. And I love that because it was an advertisement to other people saying, hey, contact tmz. Because they pay for it too. There are photo agencies that they license things with all the time. And we had a guy here whose father in law sold a picture of a burning apartment building to the LA Times for 100 bucks in an LA Times hat. And that was 25 years ago. So everybody pays for photos, everybody pays for video. What you don't pay for are interviews. Because then you're incentivizing people to make things up, to make it worthwhile. And let me just say that we get tons of tips because, you know, I have reporters here and the idea is establish relationships, work with people. When we get, you know, when we broke, I don't know, Bobby Christina's death, Whitney Houston's daughter, You know, it's like, what are we gonna do? Call people up randomly and say, hey, we're gonna pay you. Somebody's gonna say, how dare you. And it's gonna come out that we offered it.

[Kara Swisher]

Right? No, I got that.

[Harvey Levin]

And you're not hearing it because it

[Kara Swisher]

doesn't happen to be fair. I often go to your site cause I think it's accurate actually. And so I don't find a lot of errors on your part. But where are the standards to have different standards in Washington? I know you guys got in trouble when Lane Payne's body, when you had a cropped picture of that and you got a backlash and you pulled the photos and you told Hollywood Reporter in 2008, Everyone has standards. There's something that really matters to us and deal with every day. We turn down a lot of stories. What is the standards and Is it different in Washington or not? Or just. It's the same standards everywhere.

[Harvey Levin]

It's the same standard. And look, we have researchers, we have producers, we have lawyers, we vet things here. We don't just throw things up on our website or on social media. Things get vetted. And look, we have debates all day long. There is a lot that comes across our desks where we say, no way are we going to do that. And this has gone on since day one. So what you see on the site is a fraction of the various tips and stories that we get, some of which may feel intrusive, may cross the line with privacy, may look like bedroom police, or may just have that kind of yuck factor that we talk about all the time. We do it every day.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Is there things you won't cover? Do you have a determination with your reporters there or elsewhere?

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah. I mean, and if, you know, if we get a call from somebody who works, say at a hospital, we cut it off because we are not going to violate hipaa. So that's just cut off. If somebody from say, a police department calls up and says, I'm going to give you a tip, but will you pay us $200? It's over, we cut it off. We don't do that. You know, if it's bedroom police, we don't do it. If it's a telephoto lens of something where you could not otherwise see it and it feels intrusive, that happens a lot. And a lot of times we'll get photos from photo agencies, as do others. And you know, you look at it and say, how was this picture taken and where was it taken? You know, and there are some things that feel unfair and I can't give you a benchmark on what unfairness means, but we talk about that a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from ZocDoc. Finding a doctor you like is a great feeling. They know how to make you feel comfortable and seen. They remember your kids names. You might even have the same taste in movies. And if you're really lucky, maybe they still give you a lollipop at the end of the appointment, even if you're a full grown adult who does not like a lollipop. Zocdoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so you can find someone you love book in network appointments. With more than 150,000 providers, they offer more than 200 specialties across 50 states. Read real patient reviews and get a real sense of who your doctor is and whether they are a good fit for you. When you decide that you can book instant based on their real time availability. No phone tag, no waiting around, stop putting off doctor's appointments and build a care team that's right for you. Go to ZocDoc.com Swisher to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z O C-O C.com Swisher S W-I S H-E R Zocdoc.com Swisher thanks to Zocdoc for sponsoring this message. Message Support for the show comes from Whatnot. The way people buy and sell online has changed. Imagine 20,000 people in a live stream with an entrepreneur. Not only does everyone get a good look at products, but they're building community while they do it. That's exactly what people are doing on Whatnot right now. Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even in cookies, sellers are building real thriving businesses. As a seller, you go live, show off your products in real time and turn what you love into real income. When one of our producers tried Whatnot as a buyer, she was surprised at how much she liked the live stream buying process. The chat rooms and the real time reaction from sellers made the whole thing kind of thrilling. Our producer could ask sellers to show certain angles of the product and talk more about its background. She didn't have to worry about scams because there was a real person behind each sale. Our producer had her eye on some luxury bags and good headphones, but there's something there for everyone. Records, shoes, home goods, electronics, you name it. So search whatnot W h a t N o t in the app store download and you can start selling and buying right away. Support for this show comes from Fetch Pet Insurance. Cats are special little creatures. So are dogs. I have both. I love my cats and dogs and my cat's name right now is Lovely and she means a lot to me and she's really quite narcissistic but I enjoy it. She's been pretty healthy throughout her life, but I've had other cats who have gotten sick at the end and I do think about what's going to happen in the next years ahead because she could get sick, have a health issue and with previous pets I've had the bills racked up up were enormous and I never got pet insurance and I think it's really important going forward to do that because these are big surprises and here's what surprises a lot of pet owners. Every six seconds, a pet owner in the US gets hit with a vet bill of over a thousand dollars. Emergency vet bills can run into thousands and always seem to land on a Sunday night. Be prepared for the unexpected with Fetch pet Insurance. Fetch pet insurance is billed so you never have to worry about about giving your pet the best care. Fetch is the most complete coverage for dogs and cats. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills for accidents, illnesses, diagnostics and more. Every vet in the US and Canada is in network, so you keep the vet you already trust, which is really important. Plus with Fetch, you can build a plan that fits your budget. Once your claim is approved, get paid back in as little as two days. Don't wait until your pet has a health problem. Believe, believe me. Go to fetch.comsave and get your free quote. It takes about two minutes. That's fetchpet.com/fetch lovelonger. Let's shift to DC again. Every episode we get a question from an outside expert. And I got you a very well known White House reporter.

[Harvey Levin]

Hi Harvey.

[Kara Swisher]

Ashley Parker from the Atlantic. I am old enough, unfortunately to remember when it was a stage scandal when Obama wore a tan suit. But seeing that scandals have been, I don't know, our bar for scandal and controversy has changed so much, my question to you is what? What is your gold standard for a TMZ scandal? Write me your ideal fan fiction of what you will find here in our city.

[Harvey Levin]

Thanks.

[Kara Swisher]

She's a great reporter.

[Harvey Levin]

She's great. I can't. I will tell you this that I have told Jacob, in fact, I talked to Jacob about it today and Charlie that Get in touch with members of Congress and let's find out what's going on here and if there is a really interesting story. I never said scandal because it doesn't have to be scandalous to be a really important story. I mean, let's go back to the first big story. Mel Gibson. I wouldn't call that a scandal. It was just a story. And so we're looking for the same thing. And I've told Jacob and Charlie that one of the big things you gotta do is network and get to know these people and get them to trust you.

[Kara Swisher]

Basics of reporting.

[Harvey Levin]

I know. And we're laying the groundwork.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, I used to tell people, they're like, how do you get so many scoops? I said I called more people than you. They just. I don't know what to tell you. I know more people. I keep asking questions. It's not that hard.

[Harvey Levin]

That, is it? I'll tell you. I'll tell you, Kara, the biggest friend that you have to me in journalism is the telephone that, you know, you should make 100 phone calls a day when you are searching for stories. And 97% or 97% of the time, they're gonna say, I got nothing. But the more you persist, the more you're gonna strike gold. And I mean, look, you know, we did a story not too long ago about these voicemails, these anti Semitic voicemails that Congressman Jared Moskowitz was getting. That was a good story. I wouldn't call it a scandal, but it's a reality.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. But interestingly, last month, TMZ posted a story with the headline ICE Drags man out of the hospital and a mob of angry protesters about a Nigerian man who was arrested at a Brooklyn hospital. TMZ quoted an ICE spokesperson who said the man had previous arrest for assault and criminal drug possession and tried to hit officer the car. But the White House chided TMZ on its media saying, quote, the click obsessed cuckolds at TMZ published a misleading caption that demonized our heroic ICE agents while admitting crucial context about an illegal alien scumbag. Wow. Talk about this. What do you make the White House response to this, which was a basic story in the Trump administration's ongoing attacks. I'm sure you don't mind being called a cuckold and us.

[Harvey Levin]

But still unsurprising, I guess. Join the crowd. You know, it kind of makes me feel like we've accomplished something. If they've taken notice and gotten angry, because they get angry a lot. Look, you know, if I have a fundamental issue with this administration that is that there is not reverence for the Constitution, I think that the administration looks at the Constitution as an obstacle, and I think that that is at the heart of everything right now. That, you know, it used to have, you know, people had reverence for it, and now it's like, how do we, you know, turn it on its head and get around it?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Story about Habeas Corpus. Incredible. Yeah, incredible.

[Harvey Levin]

And. And there are many stories, many stories like it. I mean, birthright citizenship. I mean, you have to do somersaults to, you know, make the argument. All sorts of things. First Amendment. So, you know, I think that is the root issue that at least I'm personally concerned with, is that the Constitution, I think, is viewed as an obstacle.

[Kara Swisher]

So does that hurt with your audience that you're going, these are serious subjects. Habeas corpus, ice, you know, and some of it's fun, but a lot of it is quite serious because they're like, when's Taylor getting married? And where? I'd like to know that.

[Harvey Levin]

Well, I mean, that's clearly more important. Important than the Constitution, right?

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, no, no. You can have both at once. But do you worry about that at all?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, you just answered it by saying you can have both at once. And I think that's the point, that you can.

[Kara Swisher]

Have you gotten pushback, I guess, from your audience, maybe.

[Harvey Levin]

What? Look, you know, we have a blog roll. And the idea for me, at least with the blog roll was, you don't like this. Scroll down. You might like that. And we kind of do it with our television show, with pacing our TV show, that there may be a subject that somebody doesn't particularly care about, but they know something else is coming down the pike in 30 seconds. And so it's the way we program as well. And the great thing, for example, of social media for us, and that's really where I'm pivoting. Our business, is that it's not all or nothing, that if you do something and take chances and service a group here and a group there, somebody's not gonna go away. They're just not gonna look at a story that maybe we did on Iran. So to me, that's the beauty of social media, right?

[Kara Swisher]

So you don't have to mean things to different people. Now, I'm gonna ask you about that social media in a second, but TMZ is covering the Los Angeles mayoral race, and former reality star Spencer Pratt, you seem to warm up to him as a mayoral candidate, especially after you two talked privately last month. But you're also very critical to his campaign. I thought you did some of the best reporting about his hijinks with his house. He finished third behind Mayor Karen Bass and City Council member Nithya Raman, and he won't be advancing to the runoff. Politico called TMZ's coverage of Pratt relentless and said the race was a measure of your political power as a California kingmaker. How do you take to that?

[Harvey Levin]

So that's an interesting one, that there are people who think that we were pushing Spencer Pratt's candidacy, and there are people who thought we were trying to sink it. And, you know, I talked to Spencer, and he was not happy with our coverage, that he was not living in that trailer, that he seemed to say he was. They were not happy.

[Kara Swisher]

He was at a lovely hotel, the

[Harvey Levin]

best hotel in la, right And. And they weren't happy that we broke the story that he had signed a deal with a reality show production company. But at the same time, you know, I was really, really critical of Karen Bass. And, you know, I think that kind of gets to the problem we have in this country, which is you're either 100% for somebody or you're their enemy. And that's the way it seems like both sides view things right now. And I don't look at it that way. And, you know, to me, you could find virtues and you can find problems with one person, and it doesn't mean you're against them or for them, just being honest about them. And I think what's happened in the media is that it's become so tribal that if, you know, if you don't like Trump, there's nothing he can do that's good, and if you love Trump, there's nothing he can do that's bad. And if you stray from that, that you're a traitor, and I reject that. And, you know, what we did with Spencer Pratt was we just tried to view him as honestly as we could.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I think you sunk him. I think you're reporting something.

[Harvey Levin]

Do you really?

[Kara Swisher]

I do. I didn't think you meant it. I think it was all true. But it was like he had this sort of snakes on a plane campaign that was a little more less popular than it seemed, you know what I mean? With voters, I guess. And so I think those people were like, oh, wait, he's living in a trailer. Oh, wait, he's doing a reality show. I think those two stories were critical in understanding. Maybe this guy's in it for himself versus the city of Los Angeles.

[Harvey Levin]

I mean, I was getting calls from celebrities saying, oh, come on, lay off him, man. He's the savior for Los Angeles.

[Kara Swisher]

I know.

[Harvey Levin]

And, you know, there were people. People who were watching the AI Ads, you know, with Spencer Pratt as Batman. And, you know, again, it's sort of like you're a savior or you're a fool and an enemy and things are in the middle. Most of the time, when I say

[Kara Swisher]

sunk him, you sunk him with the truth is what it was. You know what I mean? To me, that's what it was. It was like, this is what he did. Take it for what you will, but that's what he's doing. And I thought that was devastating to him, but he did it. I don't think you did it, you know, necessarily. You have, of course, Rupert coming into California with his New York Post version Do you see that as your real competitor? Who, from your perspective, is your competitor with all this?

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I've never viewed other media outlets as competitors, and I'll tell you why that if the New York Post or People magazine or any of them break a story, it creates interest, and we can. We can seize that and we can find an angle to it. And, you know, nobody looks at just. If you're into pop culture or celebrity news, nobody looks at just one outlet. They'll look at five or six. And if somebody finds a story that's really good and we can find angles to it, it helps us. And it also creates more interest in the universe of celebrity or pop culture. So I don't view any of them as competitors. You know, we need to do our share of breaking stories and following stories. But, you know, if somebody else breaks a story, I don't view it as a zero sum game at all. At all.

[Kara Swisher]

It's good to break a story. So how are you going to cover the midterms? Do you have any? Like, there's a lot going on. There's a lot happening.

[Harvey Levin]

I think it's going to be mostly up to Jacob and Charlie and, you know, it really depends on, you know, how things shape up. I'm not going to be sending people to Texas and, you know, and other battlegrounds. You know, look, we're not equipped to cover the midterms the way as CNN or Fox News or any of them. I mean, we just don't have the resources, and that's not our sole mission. So we're gonna do what we can do and things that we think are interesting, but it's not gonna be at the level of what you're seeing elsewhere. It's just not.

[Kara Swisher]

Are there politicians you find really interesting from a pop culture point of view? I'd imagine AOC would be one. There's a Platner. If he wins, certainly will be one. Are there any you find more interesting than others?

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I mean, AOC to me, is fascinating. Mandami has become really interesting to me. I am so intrigued by the way he's been handling things and the way he got out there with the NBA Finals. It was masterful. I mean, it was masterful.

[Kara Swisher]

He's a pop culture figure. He knows pop culture.

[Harvey Levin]

Totally. Totally.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyone else that you find. Is there a Republican besides Trump? That's interesting. I mean, as I told you, I said J.D. vance of the charm of a cybertruck.

[Harvey Levin]

So, you know, I find Tim Burchett really interesting. And, you know, some people think he's too out there. But I think Tim Burchett is really. Look, you know, I'm kind of interested since you covered the party scene. Can I ask you a question?

[Kara Swisher]

Sure, please, please.

[Harvey Levin]

Who's more fun, Democrats or Republicans?

[Kara Swisher]

In the old days, Republicans were more fun. But although some Democrats. Now the Republicans are exhausting. They're so sucked up to Trump and then they tell you how much they hate him behind the scenes, and then you're like, oh, I can't stand you. You know what I mean? Like they. I don't think anyone's fun anymore, Harvey. I don't think anyone gets along behind the scenes. And in front of the scenes before, it was like fight by day, get along by night kind of thing. So I think the comedy, you know, I remember covering something which you can't believe to this day, but Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg were very good friends and they were. And the two of them had a relationship that was. There's so much massive disagreement around. It's hard to remember those days. But there was something really nice covering people. And I don't mean that they're secretly got along. They actually got along. And so it was much more interesting now. It's just. It's exactly that, man. Insulting Michelle Obama all fucking day long. I would not like to cover that. I had thought about trying to go to that thing and then I thought, I don't have the fucking energy for it. And I'm glad I didn't. It looked like a ridiculous bread and circuses spectacle. So it wasn't interesting, it wasn't insightful. Everything implicit is explicit now. And that's the difficulty of covering it. It's all performative and that's sad.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah. I'll tell you, Charlie and Jacob, again, I'm sorry for crowing about that, but they have been able to get humor and. And frankly, more with Republicans than Democrats. Well.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, Dave, more to make fun of you.

[Harvey Levin]

And I don't know why, but that's just.

[Kara Swisher]

Democrats are pretty pissed right now.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I mean, maybe that's. And that's probably it, but that's one of the things that they're trying to navigate is. Is just getting them to open up some. And Charlie's got a bag of tricks.

[Kara Swisher]

Things are dead serious. Feel more dead serious now, especially because of the assault on the Constitution. You know what I mean? Like, that's why eventually, when that's not there, maybe it'll get back. But I don't know. Let's end by looking at TMZ's continuing evolution and its future. Early on in history, it had a reputation as the website celebrities and their publicists feared. How has it changed? Do you think you've softened your approach? Less ruthless? How do you look at your relationship to Hollywood right now?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, I mean, if you look back 20 years, there were things we did back then that I think looking back, feel harsh. And we have kind of tempered from the very beginning for sure. More generally, I, you know, I'm spending a lot of time pivoting our business that I think television has been great for us and you know, knock on wood, our shows are still doing well, but I don't know how long television's gonna last. There's a shelf life there.

[Kara Swisher]

Podcasts are television. So everything is television.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah. And so, you know, we're pivoting our business. We're live streaming our shows. We are really investing in YouTube. We've hired a whole group of gen zers and gen Alphas. I have a bunch of 21 year olds in the office now and they are doing amazing work under the leadership of a guy whose name I don't want to mention because I don't want somebody to steal him. But we've really done something really important, I think in that area with social media and Gen Z and gen Alpha and that's where the business is going. And you know, look, when we started tmz, you know, it felt like everybody was trying to hang on for dear life to what they had. And it felt like something new to have a website where you were actually covering news at the time. It's not new anymore, Kara. And so where do you go next? And I think you evolve or you die.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Harvey Levin]

And that's just the way it is.

[Kara Swisher]

I want to play a clip from an interview we did in 2009 when I was at the Wall Street Journal. I was in your new office in West Hollywood and we were talking about, about the expansion from a website to a TV show. Let's listen.

[Harvey Levin]

We're gonna have all the technical stuff, which I still don't understand, and just think of it as how can you tell a story that's going to be fun for people or interesting to people? And you know, and you just think of it as storytelling. And you look at each medium and say this medium has the ability, where you have the ability to do it in a certain way that you don't in the other and vice versa.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Harvey Levin]

And you just look at. It's storytelling. It's all about. It's not like a big Secret. It's just, how do you tell good stories on both?

[Kara Swisher]

So really, you look good there, leaning on the couch, lounging upon that couch. That'll sound me, too. Is it still that same thing, storytelling?

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah. You know, it's funny. When we started the TV show, you know, a lot of people were telling me, you gotta have an anchor and you gotta have reporters. And, you know, you do it the conventional way, where an anchor throws to a reporter who does a story and then comes back and throws back to the anchor. And it's like, that's the last thing Hollywood needed was a sixth entertainment show like that. What we said was, look, we have a room full of people who work on these stories for a living, so why not throw them all in the center of the room? And they'll be the voice, they'll be the storytellers. And. And what was different is they live the stories. They know the stories. They're not reading off a teleprompter. So we could have a PA or an editor or a news producer, and they go back and forth and in a very kind of casual way. But it can be really compelling if you do it right and you edit it right, where it's a different form of telling a story. And, you know, if there's any one thing that worked for us with the TV shows, it's that last question.

[Kara Swisher]

On an episode of Matt Bellany's podcast, the Town, he interviewed a former TMZ staffer about his relationship with Hollywood and its impact on news. One observation was that mainstream media has become more like tmz. Do you see that in that regard? Interesting. Do you see people coming around to you and is that a good thing necessarily?

[Harvey Levin]

I don't know that I can answer whether it's a good thing or not, but definite. Watching one of the morning shows or a clip of one of the morning shows the other day, and one of the anchors was saying to a celebrity she was interviewing, look, I have to ask you about these rumors that you're dating. So. And so Jennifer Lopez.

[Kara Swisher]

Go ahead.

[Harvey Levin]

A bunch of them do this.

[Kara Swisher]

Carol. I know. I agree with you.

[Harvey Levin]

And it's like some people say, yeah, and it's like, oh, I had to ask this question. Oh, I'm really sorry. But. But, you know, people are saying this, so they're all apologetic, but they're doing the same thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. I would agree. Just ask it outright and say, yeah, don't answer it if you don't want to.

[Harvey Levin]

Exactly. No. Is it. I can't answer whether that's a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So five years from now, what does TMZ look like then? Is it on YouTube? Is it on? Where is it?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, we are pivoting to social media in a big way, and that's widespread.

[Kara Swisher]

So you're including YouTube. You don't see yourself going on Netflix, for example?

[Harvey Levin]

Well, we've done over 80 documentaries, and we've worked with multiple streamers, and documentaries are a big part of our business. And we've done some that I'm really, really proud of, and serious documentaries. I mean, we did a documentary on 9, 11, the fifth plane, which nobody knew about, and there was a fifth plane that was targeted. And when you watch it, you'll believe it. But we've done, you know, lots of documentaries, some of which are, I think, really important. So documentaries are a big part of what we do. Social media is a big part of what we do. You know, the only reason I'm kind of hesitating is things are moving so quickly that I don't know what it's going to be like in five years. Is AI going to so transform things that even what you digest now on social media is going to be kind of obsolete? I don't know. It's moving so fast, you know better than anybody.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, we'll see. I'll be retired by then, but I

[Harvey Levin]

may not even be alive by then.

[Kara Swisher]

Kara, I want to tell you something you said 10 years ago. I'm going to read this to you. When I interviewed back in 2016 at Code and I had you on stage there, you predicted that in 10 years there wouldn't be Internet or television. There would be something called Intervision, elements of both. That sounds about right.

[Harvey Levin]

Yeah, I mean, I remember that.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you have a new word? Intervision.

[Harvey Levin]

I know. I remember that day when we were together talking about that. Yeah. I mean, what I was always thinking was, look, you know, you have a television and, you know, you use one clicker to watch TV shows, and then you use another to go online. But there are elements of what you get online with photo galleries and, you know, videos and related links and everything else that you could integrate into the various shows that you have on television. And it's producing a richer experience using assets from digital and linear. And I always thought these two could, and I still believe, will merge. I realize the name is kind of lame, but it's the best I could do on the spot. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Anyway, Harvey, you're in an. I really enjoy it. I love what you're doing in D.C. i just love it that you keep mixing it up. And I really appreciate it as someone who tries to.

[Harvey Levin]

Right back at you. And again, I'm sorry. I'm gonna say it for everybody. You are one of the best hosts I have ever seen.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you.

[Harvey Levin]

What you did on your CNN special.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you.

[Harvey Levin]

Just the way you interacted. I know. And you know what? And every time I tell you that, you think I'm either being insincere.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I.

[Harvey Levin]

Don't tell me to shut up.

[Kara Swisher]

It was good.

[Harvey Levin]

You were fabulous.

[Kara Swisher]

I was better on TV than I thought. Well, we'll see what happens.

[Harvey Levin]

You were fabulous.

[Kara Swisher]

Next. Maybe I'll come on your Intervision soon enough. All right, Harvey. Thank you so much.

[Harvey Levin]

Okay, Cara.

[Kara Swisher]

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro, Roselle, Michelle Aloy, Kathryn Milsop, Madeline LaPlante, Duby and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Julia Sharp Levine, Rosemarie Ho, and Eamon Whalen. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you won't have to go on spring break with Ted Cruz. If not, we're sending you to Disney World with Lindsey Graham. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

[Harvey Levin]

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[Kara Swisher]

I have definitely already been here. Now, was it left, right or right left? Well, maybe I'll cut a path out

[Harvey Levin]

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[Kara Swisher]

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