Podcast Summary: "Trump vs Democracy: Two Historians’ Perspectives" – On with Kara Swisher
Release Date: November 7, 2024
In this compelling episode of "On with Kara Swisher," host Kara Swisher engages with two esteemed historians, Dr. Lindsay Trevinsky and Dr. Timothy Naftali, to dissect the implications of former President Donald J. Trump's reelection on American democracy. The discussion delves deep into historical parallels, the erosion of democratic norms, and the potential future of the United States under Trump’s leadership.
1. Introduction and Initial Reactions
[02:03 – 05:17]
Kara Swisher opens the episode by setting the stage: Donald Trump has secured a surprising and decisive victory in the recent election, with the Republican Party also taking control of the Senate. Swisher expresses her personal dismay, urging listeners to process their emotions and take action.
Dr. Lindsay Trevinsky shares her astonishment, stating:
"I think that I have to completely rethink everything I knew about how elections work and what matters. ... I'm trying to leave space for learning. But mostly I'm just really, really surprised." [04:21]
Dr. Timothy Naftali responds with measured resignation:
"I wasn't as surprised because I had sadly come to the understanding that January 6th didn't matter for half the country." [05:19]
2. Historical Parallels: Founding Era and Nixon Era
[06:55 – 19:39]
Swisher guides the conversation through a historical lens, comparing Trump’s presidency with that of George Washington and Richard Nixon. Dr. Trevinsky draws parallels between the challenges of the 1790s and today, such as political violence, foreign interference, and questions of citizenship.
"In the 1790s ... both parties, the Democratic Republicans and the Federalists, ... that one misstep might cause the nation to completely fall apart because it was so new and it was so fragile." [07:30]
She contrasts this with today’s complacency:
"Today we're complacent because we think, ... it's been around for 200, however many years. ... but republics don't always survive." [09:32]
Dr. Naftali reflects on Richard Nixon’s approach to power:
"Donald Trump had been normalized by enough of the country that he could win. And the fact that he was normalized tells us something about ourselves." [06:55]
Moving to Nixon’s tactics, Dr. Naftali highlights:
"Nixon's deceit was calculated to protect himself ... Trump's deceit is part of how the public knows him." [40:23]
3. The Threat to Democracy and Presidential Power
[20:10 – 32:37]
The discussion transitions to the potential for free and fair elections under Trump’s presidency. Dr. Trevinsky emphasizes the robustness of electoral infrastructure but notes unprecedented challenges:
"The Insurrection act gives the President enormous leeway ... but our infrastructure is great. It's just this question that so much of our system ... what." [20:10]
Dr. Naftali expresses concern over Trump’s disregard for norms:
"He doesn't intend to have ... he can remove all of them and their lessons. It's not like we have a perfect history here." [31:33]
He further compares Nixon’s concealed abuses with Trump’s overt actions:
"Nixon had shame ... Trump is making clear, has made clear ... he doesn't know the history of the office ... which means that's a major problem." [35:53]
4. Authoritarian Tendencies and Cult of Personality
[33:31 – 49:20]
Swisher probes into Trump’s authoritarian tactics, referencing his call to military action against protesters. Dr. Trevinsky contextualizes this with Washington’s response to the Whiskey Rebellion:
"But what strikes me about Trump's language ... is the enemy within ... Language that authoritarians use as part of their play." [35:24]
Discussing Nixon’s potential for authoritarianism, Dr. Naftali notes:
"Nixon had an intense fear of Jewish Americans ... he ordered the removal of Jewish Americans ... but there was a limit to what they were willing to do." [29:15]
The conversation shifts to Trump’s cult of personality. Dr. Trevinsky explains:
"What Trump does is that he has convinced a lot of people that whatever they're seeing isn't happening. ... It's almost like a sunk costs fallacy." [46:23]
Dr. Naftali contrasts Nixon’s and Trump’s relationships with their bases:
"Nixon was not beloved ... Trump's base never shrank ... because Trump has engendered a more emotional attachment." [47:24]
5. Media, Misinformation, and Democratic Norms
[38:09 – 42:50]
The role of media in shaping political realities is a focal point. Dr. Trevinsky remarks on the evolution of media literacy:
"What I think is different ... is that people understood that they were reading a partisan production. ... whereas today, we have a media literacy problem." [38:25]
Dr. Naftali differentiates Nixon’s deceit from Trump’s misinformation:
"Trump is inventing complete history and reality. ... Trump’s deceit is part of how the public knows him." [40:23]
Both historians stress the erosion of shame and accountability in politics. Dr. Trevinsky highlights:
"We seem to have lost the ability to enforce ... agreed upon set of social behavior ... evolved over time." [39:50]
6. Guardrails on Presidential Power: Past and Present
[28:11 – 32:37]
The conversation revisits the effectiveness of historical guardrails on presidential power. Dr. Trevinsky reflects on Washington’s use of the cabinet to balance executive power:
"Washington used used the cabinet to strengthen a weak executive branch. ... he surrounded himself with people who had different types of expertise and knowledge." [13:33]
Dr. Naftali discusses Nixon’s attempts to undermine opponents:
"Nixon ordered the use of violence against the Native Americans at Wounded Knee. ... he intentionally did not follow through." [29:15]
He warns of Trump’s potential to exploit recent Supreme Court rulings:
"With the Supreme Court recognizing presumptive immunity for official acts, ... the President has enormous power to do damage." [31:33]
7. Advice for Opponents of Authoritarianism
[55:25 – 58:06]
As the episode nears its conclusion, Kara Swisher invites Dr. Naftali and Dr. Trevinsky to offer advice to those opposing authoritarian tendencies.
Dr. Naftali advises:
"Remember your civil rights. Exercise your civil rights ... Don't let Trump stand in your way of enjoying the full benefits of the Constitution." [56:51]
Dr. Trevinsky echoes the sentiment, emphasizing accountability:
"The best and most long lasting way to combat authoritarianism is through accountability. ... we have to keep trying to hold people to account." [55:38]
8. Conclusion
[57:39 – 58:06]
Kara Swisher wraps up the discussion by reflecting on America’s enduring struggle between its better and darker impulses. Inspired by the historians' insights, she calls for continued vigilance and hope in safeguarding democracy.
"We have had a long history ... and we've gone through some difficult times ... So let's have some hope." [57:59]
Key Takeaways:
- Normalization of Authoritarian Figures: Trump's election signals a worrying normalization of authoritarian behavior in American politics.
- Historical Parallels: Comparisons with Washington's foundational challenges and Nixon’s Watergate era highlight both similarities and differences in managing presidential power.
- Erosion of Democratic Norms: The decline of shame and accountability in political discourse poses significant threats to democratic institutions.
- Role of Media: The transformation of the media landscape has exacerbated misinformation, complicating efforts to maintain a shared reality.
- Guardrails and Accountability: Historical guardrails have been tested, and their effectiveness in the current political climate remains uncertain.
- Cult of Personality: Trump’s ability to foster intense loyalty among supporters contrasts with previous presidents, potentially undermining democratic checks and balances.
- Call to Action: Both historians emphasize the importance of civil engagement, accountability, and upholding constitutional rights to counteract authoritarian tendencies.
This episode serves as a crucial analysis of the current state of American democracy through historical perspectives, urging listeners to recognize the fragility of democratic institutions and the importance of active participation in preserving them.