Trump Whisperer Maggie Haberman On Trump 2.0

Summary

On with Kara Swisher: Trump Whisperer Maggie Haberman On Trump 2.0

Podcast Information:

• Title: On with Kara Swisher
• Host: Kara Swisher, Vox Media
• Episode: Trump Whisperer Maggie Haberman On Trump 2.0
• Release Date: January 6, 2025

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Introduction

In the January 6, 2025 episode of On with Kara Swisher, Kara welcomes Maggie Haberman, a senior political correspondent for The New York Times and political analyst for CNN. Haberman, renowned for her extensive coverage of Donald Trump, delves into the evolving political landscape as Trump vies for the presidency once again. The conversation covers a spectrum of topics, including Trump's strategies, his relationship with Elon Musk, contentious cabinet nominations, immigration policies, and the shifting dynamics within the Republican Party.

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Trump's Enduring Influence and Campaign Resilience

Timestamp: [03:25]

Kara opens the discussion by referencing the tumultuous events of January 6, four years prior, when Trump incited a mob to attack the Capitol. She inquires whether Haberman believed Trump’s political career was over or if she envisioned him making a presidential comeback.

Maggie Haberman responds, “I didn’t think he was done. I thought he was going to remain a factor in public life and in political life and in the Republican Party because there's just nothing in his history that has ever suggested he just goes away and accepts a defeat on anyone else's terms” ([03:25]).

Haberman emphasizes Trump's persistent presence in politics, driven by his unwillingness to step back and his ongoing rhetoric about running again, which began even before the Capitol riot and continued afterward.

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Perception of Trump: Humor vs. Threat

Timestamp: [05:37]

Swisher references Haberman’s book, Confidence Man, highlighting the duality in how Trump’s statements are perceived—humorous by some and threatening by others. She cites James Carville’s observation that many voters prioritize the economy over other issues.

Haberman explains, “He has incorporated into his persona... this very heavy fan base of entertainment, and there are a lot of people who observe Trump through the lens of entertainment” ([06:16]). She attributes this to Trump’s background in entertainment and his efforts to present himself as a larger-than-life figure, making his more unsettling actions seem funny to a significant portion of his audience.

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Potential Presidency and Policy Priorities

Timestamp: [24:03]

When discussing what Trump might do on his first day back in office, Haberman anticipates a flurry of executive orders, particularly focusing on immigration and trade policies.

Haberman predicts, “I am 95% certain there will be a series of executive orders related to immigration... He will attempt to seal the border” ([24:03]). She also expects Trump to swiftly implement tariffs, consistent with his historical use of tariffs as leverage in trade negotiations.

Swisher probes further into how Trump balances his aggressive policies with the stock market’s response, to which Haberman responds that while Trump often treats the stock market like a poll, there are instances where economic considerations influence his decisions.

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Contentious Cabinet Nominations

Timestamp: [16:59]

The conversation shifts to Trump’s controversial cabinet nominations, including RFK Jr. for Health and Human Services, Tulsi Gabbard, Pete Hegseth for Defense, and Kash Patel for the FBI Director position.

Haberman elaborates on the challenges these nominees face:

• RFK Jr.: Being a pro-choice Democrat, his stance poses significant opposition from Republican senators.

• Tulsi Gabbard: Despite being favored by Trump, she faces skepticism regarding her preparedness for the role ([18:17]).

• Pete Hegseth: Despite personal controversies, Haberman notes that unexpected developments, such as accusations from Hegseth’s exes, could derail his confirmation ([19:12]).

• Kash Patel: Seen as more palatable due to his alignment with Trump’s views on the FBI, Patel’s nomination is considered the most straightforward, although his extreme statements could pose future challenges ([20:52]).

Haberman characterizes these nominations as part of Trump’s broader strategy to “flood the zone,” overwhelming the media and Senate with appointments that align closely with his vision.

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Elon Musk’s Influence and Relationship with Trump

Timestamp: [40:14]

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Elon Musk’s growing influence within Trump’s circle. Musk’s residence at Mar-a-Lago and his involvement in meetings, including briefings with Jeff Bezos, signal a complex and potentially volatile relationship.

Haberman remarks, “Musk is influential... but I continue to believe that once Trump gets to Washington, this is going to change a little bit” ([42:27]). She anticipates that while Musk currently holds sway, the dynamics will shift once Trump assumes the presidency, potentially limiting Musk’s direct influence within the administration.

Kara mentions the public’s playful moniker for Musk, “President Musk,” which seems to irritate Trump. Haberman acknowledges the tension but suggests that Musk’s substantial financial backing provides him a degree of protection against immediate fallout.

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Immigration Policies and Enforcement

Timestamp: [28:06]

Trump’s aggressive stance on immigration is another focal point. He has pledged to conduct mass deportations, targeting undocumented immigrants who have committed crimes, while also promising to protect “Dreamers”—individuals brought to the U.S. as children.

Haberman highlights, “Stephen Miller has worked in the government before and understands what the possible is,” indicating that Trump’s immigration policies may see more assertive implementation than in previous administrations ([28:18]). She also notes a shift in Democratic attitudes toward immigration, with some support from Democratic mayors like Eric Adams, which could reduce pushback against Trump’s policies.

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Legal Maneuvers and Media Relations

Timestamp: [49:10]

The discussion also touches upon Trump’s litigious approach towards the media and his use of lawfare to intimidate and silence critical outlets.

Haberman explains, “Trump is historically litigious... he is going to file lawsuits” ([50:01]). She recounts Trump’s past lawsuits against media figures, such as the libel case against Tim O’Brien of Bloomberg, which he ultimately lost. Haberman anticipates that Trump will continue to leverage legal actions to challenge media coverage that he deems unfavorable, especially with increased financial support from wealthy backers.

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Press Coverage and Reporting Challenges

Timestamp: [56:04]

Haberman reflects on her role as a reporter covering Trump’s administration, emphasizing the importance of maintaining journalistic integrity amidst increasing antagonism towards the press.

Haberman states, “Holding power to account is what we do,” underscoring her commitment to accurate and fair reporting despite Trump’s efforts to undermine media credibility ([52:49]).

She also discusses the evolving nature of her reporting, noting that while the political environment has changed, the fundamental challenges of covering a tumultuous administration remain consistent ([56:26]).

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Closing Remarks and Future Outlook

As the episode concludes, Kara and Maggie discuss the unprecedented nature of Trump’s potential presidency, including his requests to the Supreme Court regarding the TikTok ban and his overall approach to governance.

Haberman anticipates significant actions from Trump, such as delaying the TikTok ban to allow for potential acquisitions, illustrating Trump’s continuous engagement with media and digital platforms ([48:32]).

Kara Swisher and Maggie Haberman acknowledge the chaotic global environment Trump inherits, comparing it to past crises like the COVID-19 pandemic, and contemplate how these challenges will shape his administration’s policies and public reception.

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Notable Quotes

• Maggie Haberman: “I did not believe, because I had covered him and I had covered both of his campaigns, and I had been covering the post Tea Party political scene for a very long time, which is really what gave rise to him, that this was just gonna evaporate.” ([04:12])

• Kara Swisher: “It's like groundhog Day again.” ([02:58])

• Maggie Haberman: “These cases are not all the same... Holding power to account is what we do.” ([50:01] and [52:49])

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Conclusion

This episode of On with Kara Swisher offers an in-depth exploration of Donald Trump's enduring influence in American politics, the complexities of his potential return to the presidency, and the intricate dynamics with influential figures like Elon Musk. Maggie Haberman provides nuanced insights into Trump's strategies, policy priorities, and the broader implications for the Republican Party and the nation. For listeners seeking a comprehensive understanding of the current political climate, this episode serves as a valuable resource.

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Produced by Kristin Castor, Russell, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, and Kalyn Lynch. Special thanks to Maura Fox, engineers Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and theme music by Trackademics.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

How you doing? How are you looking at your phone? I am your favorite thing. Hi, everyone. From New York magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network, this is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Maggie Haberman, a senior political correspondent for the New York Times, political analyst for cnn, and author of Confidence man, the Making of Donald Trump, and the Break Breaking of America. She's arguably the best known reporter to cover President elect Donald Trump. And I love talking to her because, one, she's an amazing reporter. Two, she's a good friend of mine, and three, boy, does she have a job ahead of her. Four years ago, Trump enticed a mob to overrun the Capitol. The goal was to delay certification of President Joe Biden's victory in the election and ultimately overturn the results of that election. Now, Donald Trump's win will be certified probably without a hitch. In fact, I'm pretty sure without a hitch. And this time, Trump has a new best friend, someone I know well, too. Elon Musk. Now Maggie's and my worlds have completely collided. I'm gonna talk to Maggie about how we got here, how Trump will deal with the tiny and restless Republican majority in the House, what his priorities are, and what she makes of his. Bromance with Elon. And our expert question comes from Ben Smith, the editor in chief of semafor, former media columnist for the New York Times, and former founding editor in chief of buzzf News. So stick around. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Intuit. Are you marketing to small businesses? With Intuit SMB Media Labs, you can connect to millions of small businesses across new and established channels like Social, Programmatic and ctv. With first Party, small business audiences, target by industry size, maturity, location, and more. And connect with the companies that need you most. Do more with tailored insights from Intuit SMB Media Labs. Learn more at medialabs.intuit.com.

[Maggie Haberman]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Kara Swisher]

Today.

[Maggie Haberman]

It is on.

[Kara Swisher]

Maggie, welcome. Thanks for being on On. And happy New Year, by the way.

[Maggie Haberman]

Happy New Year. Thanks for having me.

[Kara Swisher]

It's gonna be quite a year for you again. Here we are again, all of us, really.

[Maggie Haberman]

Here we are again.

[Kara Swisher]

It's like groundhog Day again.

[Maggie Haberman]

Never really. It never really ended.

[Kara Swisher]

It didn't end for you, at least for a second there. Brief second.

[Maggie Haberman]

For a lot of people, it didn't.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So there's a lot I wanna get into. So let's get started right now. So the interview will air on January 6, four years after President elect Donald Trump incited a mob to attack the Capitol as part of an attempt to overturn the 2020 election. According to Trump, a day of love. Did you think Trump was over, or can you imagine him being president again?

[Maggie Haberman]

Well, no, I actually didn't think that he was done. I didn't know that I thought he was gonna be president again, but I thought that he was going to remain a factor in public life and in political life and in the Republican Party because there's just nothing in his history that has ever suggested he just goes away and accepts a defeat on anyone else's terms. And he was talking about running again already. He had started doing that even before January 6th. He did it again after. So I don't think anybody imagined the events of the last four years. I mean, it was a pretty remarkable set of circumstances. But I think there was a prevailing view in Washington that I never shared. It's the Joe Biden view, right? The fever breaks, he's out of town. This is the fever breaks. I never thought that was the case.

[Kara Swisher]

And why was that?

[Maggie Haberman]

Because he had a really durable political movement and it was a significant portion of the Republican Party and a not insignificant portion of the country. I didn't think that Republicans in Washington, and certainly not Democrats in Washington were ready to grapple with that.

[Kara Swisher]

Grapple with that. And it was out of. Just because it wasn't normal or that it wasn't. They didn't understand a movement because they.

[Maggie Haberman]

Didn'T understand it, because it was nothing that they had ever experienced. And there was a uniquely DC centric mindset that he was a media creation, that if the press coverage was gone, then he would get no attention. In fact, the lack of press coverage and him being off Twitter now X then Twitter helped him. It actually lessened some of the angry memories that the public had of his term and of what had happened. And then all kinds of other things happened. Right. That we haven't talked about yet. But I just. I did not believe, because I had covered him and I had covered both of his campaigns, and I had been covering the post Tea Party political scene for a very long time, which is really what gave rise to him, that this was just gonna evaporate.

[Kara Swisher]

So I interviewed you for this podcast in October of 2022, and we talked about your book Confidence Man. You described an interesting duality in how people perceive Trump. He'd say something and one group would think it was funny or they're in on the joke, and another group would find the same words terrifying or threatening, which is a point that you were making. So apparently a pleurity of voters think he's more funny than dangerous. And James Carville kind of pointed that out today. They didn't give a rat's ass about anything else except the economy, in his view. What is it about him that makes his most unsettling actions or rhetorics seem funny to some people?

[Maggie Haberman]

I think a couple of things. I think that he has clearly over a long period of time. And my line that I talked about in the podc, which was from Confidence man, was in a section of the book where I talked about him reading Lindsey Graham's cell phone number on stage in 2015. And I was quite queasy about what he did. And a colleague later said to me, oh, it was so funny. An industry colleague. And I said that he was being interpreted as if he had a laugh track and a psychological thriller score behind him at all times. He has incorporated into his Persona, and it is political campaigns this, you know, World Wrestling Entertainment ethos of smash mouth and of sort of grand performances and violence. And in wrestling, it's a pre scripted, predetermined outcome. It doesn't always mean it goes the way you think it will. There can be real pain. On stage with him on election night was Dana White, the head of the ufc. And they've been friends for a long time. The UFC is. It's actually much more in line with the Trump ethos. But either way, they both have this very heavy fan base of entertainment, and there are a lot of people who observe Trump through the lens of entertainment, and I don't think that that's ever changed. This is a guy who came onto the cultural scene as a businessman, and he was sort of painting himself as a figure that he wasn't quite. He was not a titan of finance, he was a real estate developer, but he got very into entertainment. He was sort of always captivated by entertainment and by being a star. And so I think that's a part of it. I think he works hard to try to be amusing to people, and there are people who find him that way and are willing to excuse all of the rest.

[Kara Swisher]

When you say that, people get very angry, you know what I mean? When you. Some do I mean, some do, yeah. But why does he unsettle others? Because they're not in on the joke or that it's not funny to many people?

[Maggie Haberman]

Because, well, to some people it's not funny. Hence the line about laugh track and psychological thriller score. There's a clear split in how people interpret him. In the 2024 election. More people cared about what he said he was going to deliver to their lives because it was, as a bunch of Democratic operatives and Republican operatives put it to me and my colleagues, it was an incredibly transactional electorate in the post Covid world. And they didn't believe that the Democrats were offering them enough specifics about what would help their lives. That's what they cared about. This group of voters was their lives. Jonathan Swan and I wrote a piece about that during the. And Jenny Medina, our colleague, is it, you know, it's a plurality. I mean, he didn't clear 50% of the popular vote. But what he is not is a fluke, as people believed he was in 2016. Going back to your original question of, you know, does he just go away?

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So a lot of. Obviously the outward opposition to Trump seems to be melting away. Democrats talk about finding common ground. CEOs grovel before him. We'll get into that.

[Maggie Haberman]

We'll see. We'll see.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree.

[Maggie Haberman]

I haven't heard there yet. Let's. Let's see.

[Kara Swisher]

But people are making the moves, right? There's the news organization, settle spurious lawsuits and make donations to his library. Who do you think? You said, we'll see. So who do you think will make an effort to stop Trump if he moves along what he's been promising?

[Maggie Haberman]

Well, I don't know what Stop Trump means. Right. I mean, I think that there is going to be. Stop him from what? He's the president. So are people are going to try to stymie his agenda? I'm positive that Democrats and even potentially some Republicans are going to take issue with certain aspects of what he wants to do. What's been fascinating in the last couple of weeks, two weeks, has been the most potent fight has not been over his nominees in terms of the form of objections from Democrats. It's been Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer and other people criticizing Elon Musk. It will get to have H1B visas and Trump siding with Musk. And so I don't know what stop looks like in terms of stymie or slow. I think you're gonna have a lot less people doing that from within Trump's government as what happened last time. But this time I do think, you know, Trump is Jonathan Swan, and I have written about this repeatedly. He is very reactive to, you know, media coverage and to the stock market. And so that will stymie him as much as anything. But I do think as time goes on, once he's there, depending on what the initial rollout of actions look like, you could see Democrats getting more vocal. I certainly agree. They seem sapped of energy right now.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. So he's also, as you said, dealing with a maga civil war between the nativists like Steve Bannon and Laura Loomer and billionaires like Elon Musk and I suppose David. David Sachs to a lesser extent. So far, they're winning the tech pros. And it's incredible that your world and my world are now the same, which we never thought would happen.

[Maggie Haberman]

It was always bound that everything would be flat in the same.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, exactly. So talk about the latest squabble. And were you surprised by the ascendance of Elon?

[Maggie Haberman]

I was not. Because Elon Musk has an enormous amount of money that he put to use helping Trump. Trump equates wealth with intelligence, so this hasn't surprised me at all. How long it lasts, I think is the open question. A long time. Trump friends said something to me recently about how Trump is a one ring circus. I'm not sure that Musk has figured that out yet. And Trump does complain a bit to people about how Musk is around a lot privately. Musk, Jonathan Swan and I reported recently with Ryan Mack that that Musk has been staying at this cottage in Mar a Lago that rents typically for more than $2,000 a night. So he really parked himself in Trump's face. But what that looks like, Cara, when Trump becomes president, I don't know. I mean, Musk is leading this government cost cutting initiative, Doge, and it's not novel to have a government cost cutting panel. Some of them work and some of them don't. And so let's see what this looks like. When the Transition, which is currently based in Palm beach, moves to D.C. for.

[Kara Swisher]

The inauguration, will he move into the Lincoln Bedroom, for example?

[Maggie Haberman]

I don't think he will move into the Lincoln Bedroom, but I do think that at the moment, and again, we'll see what this looks like. I think he's gonna try to have as much proximity to Trump as possible that requires, you know, being given an office on the White House campus, either in the. In the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, which is adjacent to the White House, or the West Wing proper. And let's see whether that happens.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute.

[Maggie Haberman]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Maggie Haberman]

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[Kara Swisher]

Let'S talk about the Cabinet and staff nominations. With another test of his grip on the party, let's go through some of the more contentious ones. Still RFK junior For Health and Human Services, he might face some tough questions from Republicans who don't like his pro choice stance or want to know where he stands on the polio vaccine. Mitch McConnell pushed back on that. How do you expect his confirmation hear to go?

[Maggie Haberman]

I think that there could be some tough moments with Republican senators. Kennedy is a pro choice Democrat, pro abortion rights Democrat. Historically, it's not clear at all what that would mean in terms of an agency that has impact over reproductive health policy. His views on vaccines, obviously you just talked about them. I think those are of more concern generally to Democrats as a group than Republicans right now. But. But as you said, Mitch McConnell has a very specific interest in one of the vaccines. Trump is a vaccine skeptic except for the COVID vaccine. I don't think that Trump is a polio vaccine skeptic, but I think that you're going to see Kennedy get asked some difficult questions. So let's see where that goes.

[Kara Swisher]

What about Tulsi Gabbard? There are reports that her nomination is particularly dear to Trump's heart. How come? And where does that stand?

[Maggie Haberman]

Well, I don't know about particularly dear. He likes her a lot. I don't know that she's dearer than, say, Kash Patel for FBI director. Right. But he likes her a lot. She's become very, very integral in parts of his operation. Her nomination is also gonna face some challenges. There's been some whispers from senators that they don't always find her especially prepared. I don't know whether that's fair or not. I'm just saying that's the line. And she's a younger woman who I think is going to face tougher questions in the Senate, which tends to be this older male bastion. Yeah, so we'll see. But they definitely. I mean, look, Trump put forward four of the most controversial nominees in modern history, if not all of US history. And one of them is gone, Matt Gaetz. The other three, Pete Hegseth, Tulsi Gabbard, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Are facing challenges still.

[Kara Swisher]

So Pete Hegset to lead the Defense Department. He has no experience running law organizations, and there's a ton of baggage. There's lots of reporting on his incompetency, obviously his personal issues, drinking. And there was allegations which he's denied.

[Maggie Haberman]

Denied, that's correct, yes.

[Kara Swisher]

I am going to note that he's very vehemently denied. Despite a lot of reporting on the subject, he seems to be on his way to confirmation. What would derail that?

[Maggie Haberman]

It's a good question. He was the case study for how the Trump team was going to try to approach any of these nominees and senators taking on these nominees. They were concerned when these reports started popping up around Hegseth, and concerns were being voiced by senators that if they lost Hegseth, that it was going to become easier to pick off each of these. Now, Matt Gaetz was gone for a variety of reasons, but Trump clearly didn't want to engage in that fight anymore. He did decide to stick with Hegseth after being uncertain. So what could derail it? Is anything unexpected in the hearings, or if some of the accusers who have so far not spoken out publicly, do they go public? That's the one thing that I keep hearing over and over again from Republicans. Do any of Hegseth's exes go on camera or put their names to something? That could be a circumstance that would be complicated.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And Kash Patel, as you mentioned, to lead the FBI, wildly unqualified Yeah.

[Maggie Haberman]

I think Kash Patel actually has the, at the moment, the easiest path because.

[Kara Swisher]

So he said, I'd shut down the FBI Hoover Building on day one and reopen it next day as a museum of the deep sea.

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah, well, that's.

[Kara Swisher]

Why does he have. Why does he have the easiest.

[Maggie Haberman]

A couple of reasons. He's worked on the Hill. A lot of these folks know him and like him. A bunch of Republican senators have gotten fairly radicalized about the intelligence agencies and about the FBI and law enforcement agencies. Remember, Trump has made a cause of talking about the FBI executing a search warrant on Mar A Lago in August of 2022 in search of classified documents that he had held onto after he left office and did not return after several requests. And so there's a lot of shared feeling by Republican senators with Trump about the FBI, and they think Cash is a good choice. Now, Cash not only has said he would shut down the building and reopen it as a museum, he also talked in a podcast with Steve Bannon in, I think it was 2023, about how he would, quote, unquote, go after the media, that whether it was civilly or criminally, that would be figured out later. So all of these are open questions, but Trump has been pretty plain about his desire for retribution and. But, you know, we'll see what questions Patel gets asked.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you nervous at all in that regard, being gone after?

[Maggie Haberman]

I have a job to do. It's not. They're gonna do what they're gonna do, and we're gonna do our job as carefully as possible.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So when we look at the slate of nominations, you said it's unprecedented. You know, of how he sort of. In your face, Matt Gaetz, probably the worst.

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

What do you think it says about how he thinks about governance and democracy? He certainly could have made other choices that were just as conservative, but maybe not quite as irritating to everybo.

[Maggie Haberman]

Trump has been pretty open about wanting to blow up the system in various ways. And so it's not really a surprise. Matt Gaetz was a surprise to be the Attorney General because Matt Gaetz was investigated by the Justice Department. Matt Gaetz was facing a House Ethics Committee report that has since become public about his alleged drug use and allegedly paying for sex with women and an alleged encounter with an underage girl. And so that one was surprising. Hegseth has actually been a favorite of Trump's for a while. Trump wanted to put him at the Veteran affairs in his first term. Tulsi Gabbard, we knew, was going to be getting something. RFK Jr. Was plain that he wanted HHS, so, sure. Could Trump have done something different? Yes, but there has generally been an approach by Trump and by a lot of his supporters, like Bannon, like Stephen Miller, you know, and supporters and advisors to basically flood the zone and that the media then can't catch up. And that's really what this was, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Flooding the zone is this Bannon thing. We'll get to Ben in a second, but let's talk about his priorities. We'll kick it off with our expert question. Let's hear it.

[Maggie Haberman]

Hi, I'm Ben Smith. I'm the editor of Semaphore. And the big question I'd ask Maggie. I guess the big question everybody has right now is, what is Trump actually gonna do on day one?

[Kara Swisher]

Ben.

[Maggie Haberman]

Ben Smith.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, of course. Very short and Swee.

[Maggie Haberman]

What is Trump actually going to do? I think you're going to see a bunch of executive orders on day one. How many and what kind, I think is the big question. I am 95% certain there will be a series of executive orders related to immigration. Trump said in a speech at Turning Point USA a couple of weeks ago, on day one, I will seal the border. And I don't think that was just, you know, apocryphal language. I think that he is going to attempt it in some way. He made a bunch of other campaign promises about, you know, about campuses and about antisemitism and about, you know, LGBT issues and trans issues. And I think that you will. I think you will see those. I don't know if those will all be on day one.

[Kara Swisher]

So one thing you did mention is tariffs. Also. He had promised in the first hundred days that they were a big part of the campaign.

[Maggie Haberman]

You will see tariffs, there's no question.

[Kara Swisher]

No question. But one of the things he's interested in, the stock market, this would be hugely disruptive to the business community. He does pay a lot of attention to that. What do you imagine on day one, him doing in that regard with trade policy? And who is he listening to the most?

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah, I don't. I mean himself, frankly. But in terms of day one, I don't know. Because in order to implement tariffs, there are some things that have to be done. But I do think that you will see tariffs implemented pretty quickly. The question is whether he goes with the volume and scope that he has said he is going to impose on Mexico and Canada. Remember, he has tied these to immigration and to the flow of drugs across borders. So we'll see. He often Uses tariffs as leverage. He did that throughout his first term. He would sometimes back off when there were stock market issues or when some of his advisors were pushing back. But his general take on this, Kara, and remember, he's been talking about other countries ripping us off since the 1980s. This is a very sort of retro view.

[Kara Swisher]

It's ingrained.

[Maggie Haberman]

He has a couple of policy matters or thoughts, instincts, impulses that he has been on for a long time, and that's one of them. So we'll see how far he's willing to go. But it hasn't always been a deterrent that the stock market is crashing because the stock market or sinking or dropping because the stock market goes back up. And so in the first term, he treated the stock market like a poll.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a good point.

[Maggie Haberman]

But when he went with tariffs, and it was amid him having pushed through this massive tax bill, which he had regretted not making his first legislative priority, he instead went with trying to repeal Obamacare. And when that bill sank, he said to advisors, I should have done tax cuts first. People who didn't want him to go with tariffs tried pulling back on him by saying, you are going to undermine the effects of the tax cuts. And he didn't believe that. And he went ahead and he was more or less right. I mean, the world didn't end. The economy didn't crater. And so what he took from incidents like that or moving the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, when he was cautioned that there would be a massive and potentially very violent backlash. There was some backlash, but the scope was not what had been forecast as a possibility. He takes that as my instinct was right, and so I think you were going to see him testing as far as possible. But what exactly that looks like in the first 30 days, I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Immigration policy is another one with his instincts. He campaigned on mass deportation, which would also be massively disruptive of the economy. You're seeing story after story about that with farmers and et cetera, et cetera, restaurant workers, hotel workers, et cetera. He said he wants to help dreamers stay in the country, and they're gonna focus on deporting immigrants who have committed crimes, which every administration says it's gonna do.

[Maggie Haberman]

Right. The Biden administration did that too, correct?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Maggie Haberman]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

So how many? What does that look like? He's saying we'll see the largest deportation in American history. Is that possible? Is that one of the things that's sticking with him?

[Maggie Haberman]

It's certainly possible. I think it's worth remembering he made some of these promises in 2016, and they didn't qu quite work out the way he thought they were going to. But he was also stymied by his own government over and over again on this. I think that there's a couple of things that I would say. Stephen Miller, his immigration advisor, his speechwriter, his title is deputy White House chief of staff. That really undersells how much power Stephen Miller has. If you look across the government that Trump has announced so far, there's various lawyers who are close to Miller who are in key places, in key roles in agencies that will have something to do with immigration. Stephen Miller has worked in the government before the federal government, and he spent four years running a legal policy organization that knows all these lawyers across the country and understands what the possible is. So I do think you are going to see them go further on that than they did last time. But what that means in terms of retaining land to hold migrants as a staging area before deportation, I will say, Kara, he's going to get, I think, more help from some Democratic mayors, specifically my mayor of my city, Eric Adams, than I think people realize. This was pretty sotto voce among Democrats other than Eric Adams, but during the Biden administration, there was a lot of frustration among Democrats with the Biden administration over immigration. And so this is not 2016 or 2017. It is a different moment. And I think that there is going to be in certain place less pushback on Trump because, again, this needs bearing in mind. Trump was very open about what he planned to do on immigration. He has criticized undocumented immigrants. He has recently tied undocumented immigration to crime, specifically in New Orleans, despite which was not right. The blitz perpetrator was US Born. But Trump won. Trump won decisively on that message. And so I think he is going to face less pushback than he did before.

[Kara Swisher]

Depending on how it looks. Correct.

[Maggie Haberman]

Depending on how it looks and depending on how it's implemented. But what I mean about someone like Eric Adams is I think Trump is going to get more support partnership in certain cases. Yeah. Than he would have had otherwise.

[Kara Swisher]

So he's also promised to pardon the January 6th rioters and insurrectionists, although not specifically, not all of them in a blanket a. Do you think he'll do it? And does that hurt or help him politically or. Most Americans just moved on.

[Maggie Haberman]

I do think that he will pardon some of them. I don't know exactly what that will look like. I don't think it will be everybody. I think that Trump has spent most of the last four years trying to rewrite the history of what took place on January 6th. He's, as you noted, described it as a day of love. He has called people who were arrested for their participation that day hostages who were.

[Kara Swisher]

He makes everybody listen to the court.

[Maggie Haberman]

Right, right. There's a version of the national anthem that was recorded by J6 arrestees. Kash Patel actually was one of the producers on that rendition. And Trump plays it on his iPad when he DJs at Mar a Lago. And people stand and put their hand on their heart during dinner on the patio. I don't think that the country broadly experienced January 6th the way that those of us who are in Washington did or who were in proximity to Washington did. It wasn't September 11th. It did not broadly affect people's daily lives. I don't know that the country's moved on. I also think that January 6th was a really awful day. But how much blowback does Trump get for commutations or clemency grants on that? I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So what about actively going after people like Liz Cheney? He and Kash Patel both talked about jailing political opponents. She just got an award from President Biden, a citizen award. Do you expect him to go after them, or is there anyone in specifics that he's gonna try to go after?

[Maggie Haberman]

You know, the person who he has railed about the most is Jack Smith, who was the special counsel whose team indicted Trump twice federally, once in connection with the lead up to January 6th and Trump's lies about his election loss in 2020, and the other for that documents case that we were talk. I think that it's going to be an interesting test of what happens at the leadership of doj, which is stocked with Trump's personal lawyers now, which is something that would have just caused an enormous outcry once. But if Bill Clinton had put his personal lawyers at DOJ when he was president, the reaction would have been intense. There has not been much of a ripe this time because everything just kind of becomes flat. And the same with Trump. Do I think that Trump is serious about going after people? Yes. I think that people should assume if he's saying he's going to do something retributive, that people should take it seriously. I should also note that, Kara, a lot of times he doesn't say, I'm going to do this. He did say he was going to appoint a quote, unquote, real special prosecutor to go after the Bidens, although he has sort of, I wouldn't say, backed off of it, but he hasn't reiterated it in general. What he does is say people should be prosecuted. And so in an interview with Meet the Press, he told the host that he wasn't. This was a couple weeks ago, that he wasn't going to direct the DOJ to do anything. It'll be up to them. It'll be up to Pam Bondi, the incoming Attorney general, or Kash Patel, the FBI, directly up to them. However, these are all people who also have echoed Trump's statements that the, quote, unquote, deep state needs to be cleaned out and so forth, and they know what he wants, so. So we'll see what that looks like. In terms of Liz Cheney, Barry Loudermilk, one of her former colleagues in the House, Republican, I think it was, sent a letter suggesting that she should be investigated and alleging that she may have engaged in witness tampering. He offers no evidence that's compelling of this. She has denounced this as. As false and as trying to tarnish her and doing Trump's bidding. There's things to remember here, which is that the speech and debate clause also protects her. Give her pretty wide latitude. Yeah. In terms of what she was doing. So I understand that Trump is going to continue to say things like this. The risk, I think, for a lot of people who are not Jack Smith or whomever, is just the other attacks they face online. They become, you know, focal points for Trump's supporters. But look, Trump has been pretty open about believing this very long list of people that he keeps reciting, quote, unquote, should be looked at. We'll see what happens.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll see what happens. What would you do if you were them? Prepare for it or just wait?

[Maggie Haberman]

No, no, I can't advise them, but we will see where this goes.

[Kara Swisher]

So tech policy wasn't a big part of the campaign as terrorists or immigration. But conservative censorship is a huge conservative talking point. Republican, especially Trump, wants Brendan Carr to head the fcc, who's a very thirsty commissioner. Andrew Ferguson to head the ftc. Slightly less thirsty, but thirsty nonetheless. They have plans to essentially criminalize content moderation and use antitrust law to punish advertisers who leave platforms like X, which seems insane. It's pretty ambitious stuff and rests on very shaky legal ground. What is the strategy here? Is he personally invested in tech regulation, or is he letting them just do that and make all kinds of noise?

[Maggie Haberman]

I think it's mostly letting them do that. These, as far as I know, are not closely held thoughts for him. I think these. But these are areas of deep interest to some of his supporters. And so I think he's just letting them do what they would like.

[Kara Swisher]

Do what they would like and not really be supportive or just say things, but without.

[Maggie Haberman]

And just see where it goes. I mean, a lot of this is going to be governing by seeing where it goes. I just want to also make the point, Kara, that we didn't make before. So Trump is inheriting a pretty calamitous world right now. I mean, this is not what he stepped into in 2017.

[Kara Swisher]

No.

[Maggie Haberman]

There was an explosion of a Tesla cybertruck in front of the Trump Hotel in Vegas by an army veteran. The New Orleans suspect was an army veteran. There have been a series of subway pushings in New York City. There was a mass shooting the other night. This is not a placid world. And we haven't had to see Trump govern during multiple crises before. And the one time he had a real crisis, which was the coronavirus pandemic, he didn't do very well. So every elected official comes in with a lot of grand plans, but sometimes the world gets in the way.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Foreign support for this show comes from NerdWallet listeners. A new year is finally here, and if you're anything like me, you've got a lot on your plate. New habits to build, travel plans to make, recipes to perfect. Good thing our sponsor, NerdWallet is here to take one thing off your plate. Finding the best financial products, introducing NerdWallet's best of awards. List your shortcut to the best credit cards, savings accounts, and more. More. The nerds at NerdWallet have done the work for you, researching and reviewing over 1100 financial products to bring you only the best of the best. Looking for a balance transfer card with 0% APR? They've got a winner for that. How about a bank account with the top rate to hit your savings goals? They've got a winner for that, too. Now you can know you're getting the best financial products for your specific needs without having to do all that research by yourself. So let NerdWallet do the heavy lifting for your finances this year and head over to their 2025 Best of Awards at Nerdwall to find the best financial products today. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals.

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Visit LifeLock.com podcast Terms apply so let's get into Elon, which sometimes I call him Melonia. Many people do. Also. Many people. Some people are saying also President Musk, which people are doing largely, I think, to annoy Trump and I think it is annoying to Trump. As you've reported, Elon's effectively living at Mar a Lago and sitting in on meetings, including one Trump had with Jeff Bezos. I think he showed up like a bad penny for Bezos. I saw his face.

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah. Although if Trump didn't want him there, Trump would have told him not to come.

[Kara Swisher]

That is correct. But he did obviously wanted to unsettle Bez Bezos. He unleashed a tweet storm that roughly 100 posts to help defeat the original bipartisan deal Speaker Johnson had made to keep the government funded. He also Trump accidentally posted what seemed to me meant to be a private DM saying how much he missed him.

[Maggie Haberman]

That was odd.

[Kara Swisher]

That was odd message.

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Talk about this. It was sort of that. Speaking of thirsty, talk about this relationship. I have noted that I suspect it will go awry at some point, but they're very much alike in some ways too. How do you look at this relationship? Especially cuz he's now helping defeat a spending bill. They are using the term President Musk a lot. They seem annoyed by him. So talk a little bit about what's developing here.

[Maggie Haberman]

It's complicated because you know, Musk is close to people around Trump. You know, it's been reported that he had some kind of a political spending relationship with Stephen Miller in 2022. He has given a lot of money as a pass through through a group called Building America's Future, which previously had been connected to Ron DeSantis and people who were connected to Ron DeSantis. Run it. Musk has been a major donor to Trump this campaign cycle and he's sort of tied into a lot of various areas around Trump, which makes things more complicated. Where do I see it going? Musk seems more willing to irritate Trump than A lot of other people have been. And less concerned about what it might mean. I just continue to believe that once Trump gets to Washington, this is going to change a little bit. I don't anticipate that Musk is going to have an office in the West Wing. I don't even know that he will have what's called a blue pass to wander around. I think it's blue, maybe it's green, but there's a pass you need to.

[Kara Swisher]

That you can just walk in.

[Maggie Haberman]

You can just walk in. And so. And I don't. Yeah, it doesn't mean you can just walk straight into the Oval, but it's pretty close. And Trump also has historically had a really freewheeling office. He did at the Trump Organization. He did in his first term. So I don't think that people really want Musk running around this way. But what that ends up looking like remains to be seen. Trump keeps people around for a long time if they are of use to him. And he almost never totally closes the door on somebody not having this rich.

[Kara Swisher]

Not someone else.

[Maggie Haberman]

Well, even somebody who's not this rich. But, yes, somebody who's this rich and who is willing to go to fund primary challenges to lawmakers who might thwart Trump. Musk comes with something that President Bannon did not, which is a lot of money, and I think that buys him a fair amount of time. But I just think that when Trump goes to Washington and he's not sitting on the patio, when Musk can walk over from Banyan Cottage where he's been staying, I think it's going to be tougher.

[Kara Swisher]

Tougher for Musk. Musk.

[Maggie Haberman]

Different for Musk. Yeah. I mean, again, I don't think it's gonna completely change. These things are like. It's like. It's like watching shifting sands around Trump. Do you know what I mean? It's like, this one's up, this one's down, and I don't. But nobody's ever totally out, and I don't expect Musk will be. But it is. But it's a fraught relationship or has potential for becoming more so. You are correct that they are not dissimilar. Trump usually delegates dealing with unpleasant interpersonal tasks to people around him. I think a bunch of people around him are also struggling with how aggressive Musk can be in their interactions, Right?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I've heard from them, oddly enough.

[Maggie Haberman]

Oddly enough. And so I don't know what that ends up looking like. But do I also think that if you ask them publicly, they would all Say what a great entrepreneur is a great supporter. And this is like. I think that's. That's true too.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. So when you look at that, is there something he could, a line he could cross? Is Trump bothered by the President Musk thing? He did address it and he seemed.

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah, no, he didn't bring that up because it doesn't bother him. Yeah, so it definitely bothers him.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, the puppet master pictures, etc.

[Maggie Haberman]

Yeah, I mean, just the President Musk line was always going to be a way to get him. And I mean, Trump's not a windup toy, but there certainly are very specific things that can zots him, and that was one of them. But I think once Trump is actually the President, that might stave some of this off for a bit.

[Kara Swisher]

Stave some of it off for a bit. So how influential do you, of all the advisors, is he the most influential right now? Elon Musk? Yeah.

[Maggie Haberman]

No, no, no, but he is. No, but he is influential, right? No. Stephen Miller is the. And Susie Wiles are the two most influential. Very different advisors, very different people, but they are the two.

[Kara Swisher]

Could you talk a little bit about her for what is her role right now? Because she seems to let Trump be Trump. If I'm gonna use a West Wing.

[Maggie Haberman]

Term, she does let Trump be Trump, but she also, historically, in our reporting picks, her spots, and there are spots where she makes her influence known. And she ran the most effective version of the, the Trump political organization that has existed. She's also the only person who has survived a full campaign in that role. And that is not nothing, especially given everything that was going on with the legal cases and assassination attempts and a criminal case in the middle of the campaign. That said, chief of staff has a different role. And so she has a team of people who feel very close to her and want to see her succeed and who she brought to the dance. And so we will see what that looks like when they all get into the White House. But I think it is a mistake. The thing that people kept saying to me is, it's actually similar to what you said to me at the start of this interview. Is, is blah, blah going to stop him? I don't think that Susie Wiles sees her role as stopping him. Right. But do I think that she has certain areas of priorities where she is going to try to have influence? Yes. You know, she doesn't do it flamboyantly, but she does make her presence felt.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So powerful figure in the administration, a.

[Maggie Haberman]

Very effective blade wielder, which I Think people are often caught by surprise about.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Cause she's apparently lovely on the surface. Correct. And she's a very different personality than them.

[Maggie Haberman]

She's a very different personality than what Trump has had in that role before. That's definitely true.

[Kara Swisher]

So one last question about one thing that's gonn get his attention right away is I made a prediction for 2025 that Trump is asking the Supreme Court to delay the TikTok ban so someone like Elon, with help from Larios and other investors can buy and that China will cooperate. This might be a big thing right at the beginning of the administration. It's the law goes into effect January 19th. If the Supreme Court does not act, that's what it will be.

[Maggie Haberman]

He will. And Trump is asking delay.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Which is unprecedented apparently. But everything is unprecedented with him.

[Maggie Haberman]

Everything is unprecedented.

[Kara Swisher]

So what is your take on what will happen there? That will be a big thing right at the start, for example.

[Maggie Haberman]

It will be a big thing right at the start. And this is more your area than mine. So I don't want to sound like an idiot with the king here, but your supposition, whether it's Musk or someone else possibly wanting to buy TikTok. I have heard that theory. I don't know if that's the case, but I have heard it. I don't know what it looks like but I think that of things that Trump would be focused on that would be high on the list.

[Kara Swisher]

High on the list. What happens to TikTok?

[Maggie Haberman]

Because Trump believed although I think yes, he asked as an investor. But I don't know how much that's been a part of their conversations, if at all. Trump believes that TikTok is partly why he won. And he did a post on truth about it. I think he did Truth social yesterday or the day before showing it was like why would I wanna get rid of TikTok? And it was all of his stats. And you know, this is obviously a pretty big turnaround from where Trump was on TikTok in his first term.

[Kara Swisher]

But complete is what I would call it.

[Maggie Haberman]

Correct. But it had a benefit to Trump and so I think that's why it's something he pays attention to. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Which will be interesting. So I want to finish up last couple questions about how the press looks during this time period. Obviously ABC News agreed to pay Trump $15 million to settle a defamation suit that he probably would have lost. Most lawyers I'd speak to say that he also filed suit against Des Moines Reg Register for publishing a poll that Showed him trailing Vice President Kamala Harris. Musk is, despite his free speech shtick, which is largely empty. He's talking about suing media outlets over headlines related to the cybertruck explosion. It was an explosion in a Tesla cybertruck at the Trump Hotel in Las Vegas. It seems everywhere everyone's emboldened in this area. Are we entering this era where the richest and most powerful people in the world use this lawfare, which is what they like to call it, to intimidate and silence news outlets? And how do you look at that?

[Maggie Haberman]

These cases are not all the same. Right. But Trump is historically litigious and he actually had pretty little success with libel related cases previously. I do think that you are going to see. And Trump was open about it at a press conference. He is going to file lawsuits. You know the purpose when he sued Tim O'Brien now at Bloomberg, who covered him for a very long time and is one of the originals. Trump sued Tim for libel because of. I'm gonna paraphrase here. But it was whatever Tim put Trump's net worth at. Trump claimed it was too low. It was a couple hundred million dollars. The suit went on for a couple years. Trump lost. Trump actually did spend a fair amount of money on it, although he claimed that he hadn't. Trump told the Washington Post in the 2016 campaign that he did it to make Trim's life miserable. I don't believe he did make Tim's life miserable. But that says something about what Trump's mindset is on this. Right. Which is just to force you to spend and to force you into court and to force you to be distracted. The Des Moines Register suit is an attempt to use a consumer fraud statute in that state. It's not liable. They have been effective at jurisdiction shopping.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Maggie Haberman]

Much more so than they used to be. And they are finding judges who are more willing to let cases go forward. And we should also note that this is another area where Trump's personal desires align with long standing Republican interest in this case. Trying to get NYTV subscribers Sullivan before the Supreme Court. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the whole goal, which is why ABC people told me they settled.

[Maggie Haberman]

So I think that I do think you're going to see more of these. I think it is. Look, we need to do our best to be, you know, the standard of the public figure is actual malice. We need to do our best in our reporting to be accurate and factual and fair. But that said, Trump also has a history of not liking coverage that other people might find neutral. But he decides is, quote, unquote, negative. So do I think this will be an ongoing theme? This gets back to the Musk point, right? I mean, people like Musk, I suspect, are, if not Musk, someone else. Trump has a lot of wealthy backers now who would be more willing, willing to fund these lawsuits than they might have been eight years ago.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And what does that prepend for the press covering him?

[Maggie Haberman]

Look, I mean, it shouldn't change the way people do their jobs. I mean, people should be responsible, as I said before. But holding power to account is what we do. And so there's obviously been a fair amount of concern that it is going to try to stifle that. I have a lot of faith in the press.

[Kara Swisher]

I have two more questions. Is corporations giving the money? Not a surprise to me. I know everyone's shocked by it, but of course they're going to. The slew of CEOs have gone down there. They've written positive things. This seems normal to me that they would do this. And his inauguration fund is breaking fundraising record. A lot of the cash, though, is coming from corporations that pledged not to donate to Trump after January 6th. Do you think he's gonna keep requiring these displays of submission once he's in office?

[Maggie Haberman]

I don't know what this looks like once he's in office. I think that they think they have two years, Kara, till the midterms. They do. And so. Right. And if they keep the House and grow a margin of Republican control, then that would be Trump's ideal. But historically, midterms are hard on the party in power. So although that obviously wasn't the case when President Biden was facing his midterms in 2022. I don't know. I think we will see what it looks like once he's there, and we'll see what the policy rolls out. This has been such a strange period of time. It's been so antithetical to what we saw when Trump won in 2016, heading into January 20, 2017. We'll see. I mean, one thing to Remember, Trump in 2017, and the date was January 6, 2017. That was when Trump got briefed by the intel chiefs about the dossier and the debunked Steele dossier and so forth and so on. And Trump went into that term very, very anxious. He's not facing that right now. He still has the criminal conviction in New York that has not been set aside. He's appealing that. He is facing a bunch of civil litigation. But. But generally speaking, he is coming in to office in a pretty different way than last time. In theory, that should lead him to make some decisions differently, but historically, he is a person of relatively few moves, so we'll see. So the answer is, I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you mean by calmer or more confident or.

[Maggie Haberman]

I've got calmer, more confident, and so forth and so on. Older, older, more experienced. But again, as I said earlier, the world is pretty chaotic, and these are intractable problems. So we'll see.

[Kara Swisher]

So my last question for you is, you've managed to develop sources within the administration. They've given you lots of information and scoops on Trump. As you said, when your first go around, he was new to D.C. you knew him well, and depended on establishment Republicans to staff his administration. Now he's surrounded by loyalists. He is the establishment.

[Maggie Haberman]

Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

The Democratic opposition, for now, appears to be cowed. I don't know if that will last. His people seem to be emboldened. How has the work changed for you? Here you are. I always joke with you. I'm like, this year you'll get out. But you're not out. You're back again. And unfortunately, I'm being dragged in. I can't talk about Elon Musk anymore. I don't want to. I'd like to not talk about him ever again.

[Maggie Haberman]

I have bad news for you.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, I know, but I'm trying not to talk about him again. But what do you see as your role here? This is a different reporting challenge, presumably.

[Maggie Haberman]

It's not really.

[Kara Swisher]

You attract a lot of attention yourself, by the way.

[Maggie Haberman]

I think that there is a bipartisan antipathy toward the mainstream media, and we've seen it for some time. There was a pretty loud coterie of Democrats who were very angry when reporters would note that President Biden had some struggles. And then the magic of sight on June 27 in 2024 at the debate made pretty clear that this wasn't just a press construct. So I guess my point with that is that this isn't a new reporting challenge. I mean, this is just a new phase of this story. It's a remarkable story. It's a historic story for me. I've been covering him consistently as a political figure for the last nine years and on and off as a political figure for the last 14 years. So I. It's not really that different. It's just in some ways easier because I know some of what it looks like.

[Kara Swisher]

And do you have a name for your next book?

[Maggie Haberman]

No.

[Kara Swisher]

None whatsoever.

[Maggie Haberman]

Not that I'm gonna share right now.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. Okay. But you are writing one, presumably, because this is one of the.

[Maggie Haberman]

I am writing a book with Jonathan Swan.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you think at all about your role in history? It'll go down as one of the main chronicles of this story.

[Maggie Haberman]

I know. I think about trying to get the story right and I think about trying to inform people.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, Maggie Haberman, thank you very much.

[Maggie Haberman]

Thanks, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Kristin Castor, Russell, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of On Audio. Special thanks to Maura Fox. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a blue or green or whatever color card it is to the West Wing. If not, no security clearance for you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.