Unchecked and Unbalanced: Trump’s Executive Power Moves and the Rule of Law

Summary

Summary of "Unchecked and Unbalanced: Trump’s Executive Power Moves and the Rule of Law"

On with Kara Swisher
Host: Kara Swisher | Release Date: February 13, 2025
Guests: Preet Bharara, George Conway, Jamie Gangel, Jonathan Kanter
Topic: Examination of President Donald Trump’s extensive use of executive orders and the ensuing constitutional crisis threatening the rule of law in the United States.

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1. Introduction: The Brewing Constitutional Crisis (00:00 - 04:50)

Kara Swisher opens the episode by highlighting a potential constitutional crisis sparked by President Trump's unprecedented use of executive orders—61 and counting—over a span of three weeks. These orders range from attempts to overturn birthright citizenship and banning gender-affirming care for transgender teens to freezing government funds and placing over 2,000 USAID workers on leave. More than 40 lawsuits from states, attorneys general, unions, and nonprofits have been filed, with 11 judges issuing stays on some orders.

Notable Quote:
Kara Swisher: “We’re in the brink of a constitutional crisis.” (02:57)

2. Legal Perspectives: Defining the Crisis (04:41 - 09:10)

Preet Bharara emphasizes the alarming nature of the current situation, noting that the judiciary is overwhelmed by Trump's executive actions. He points out the danger of undermining the judiciary's authority and the foundational principles of democracy.

George Conway concurs, asserting that the administration is run by individuals who view themselves above the law. He warns that if the President begins to openly defy court orders, the rule of law could become ineffective, leading to chaos.

Notable Quote:
George Conway: “We are on the verge of a constitutional crisis.” (09:11)

3. Media and Public Perception: The Chilling Effects (10:02 - 18:40)

Jamie Gangel discusses the unprecedented fear among legal and judicial sources, highlighting the uncertainty and terror felt by those within the system. She underscores the role of media in informing the public and the challenges posed by figures like Elon Musk, who amplify chaos through aggressive defiance of rules.

Jonathan Kanter distinguishes between constitutional questions and an actual constitutional crisis, emphasizing that mass defiance of court orders constitutes a crisis. He stresses the importance of adherence to the rule of law and the potential breakdown of constitutional norms.

Notable Quote:
Jamie Gangel: “We are in uncharted territory... people are scared.” (10:02)

4. The Role of Elon Musk: A Wildcard in the Crisis (26:12 - 29:33)

Kara shifts focus to Elon Musk, labeling him a "wildcard" due to his relentless defiance of established norms and legal boundaries. Musk’s aggressive actions, such as suing and attempting to control government systems, exacerbate the constitutional tensions.

Notable Quote:
Kara Swisher: “Elon Musk is the junkyard dog. He’s willing to defy rules.” (27:46)

5. Congressional and State Responses: Limited Options (33:15 - 37:09)

Jonathan Kanter explores the constraints faced by Congress, particularly the Appropriations Committee, which controls federal spending. He highlights the difficulty in enforcing Congressional directives when the executive branch chooses to defy them.

George Conway elaborates that Congress’s primary recourse is impeachment, but partisan loyalty makes this unlikely. He explains that without Congressional intervention, the crisis may devolve into a face-off with the courts, which lack enforcement mechanisms.

Notable Quote:
George Conway: “Congress has taken itself out of the fight for democracy.” (34:52)

6. Public Accountability and the Role of States (39:45 - 46:03)

The discussion shifts to the importance of citizen engagement and public accountability. Jonathan Kanter emphasizes that without active public pressure, governmental institutions may fail to uphold constitutional norms. George Conway adds that state governors and legislators will pivotal in maintaining the rule of law amid federal disintegration.

Notable Quote:
Jonathan Kanter: “Public accountability is essential to uphold the rule of law.” (39:45)

7. Supreme Court’s Potential Role: Limited by Executive Compliance (53:20 - 54:57)

Jonathan Kanter and George Conway discuss the Supreme Court’s difficult position in enforcing rulings without executive support. They express skepticism about the Court’s ability to curb executive overreach if the President chooses to ignore judicial decisions.

Notable Quote:
George Conway: “The judiciary has no soldiers, they have no police.” (34:47)

8. Personal Plans and Optimism Amidst Crisis (58:15 - 64:50)

As the conversation nears its end, the guests share their personal coping strategies:

• Preet Bharara plans to maintain calm and engage in personal hobbies while staying informed.
• Kara Swisher adopts a defiant stance against potential repercussions.
• Jonathan Kanter remains optimistic about the country's resilience and the emergence of new, progressive leadership within the Democratic Party.
• Jamie Gangel expresses hope in the integrity of certain judicial appointments and their ability to uphold the law.
• George Conway remains cautiously optimistic, believing that the pendulum will eventually swing back to uphold the rule of law despite current chaos.

Notable Quote:
Jonathan Kanter: “I believe in the resiliency of our country and our people.” (60:30)
George Conway: “We have to climb our way out of it.” (62:58)

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Conclusion: A Nation at a Crossroads

The episode concludes with a somber reflection on the fragility of the American constitutional system in the face of executive overreach. The guests emphasize the critical need for public engagement, robust judicial action, and resilient state governance to navigate and ultimately resolve the ongoing constitutional crisis.

Final Quote:
Kara Swisher: “We better go read the Constitution. It’s a pretty cool document.” (64:55)

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Key Takeaways:

• Trump’s Executive Orders: An unprecedented number has led to widespread legal challenges and judicial stays.
• Constitutional Crisis: Experts warn that the administration’s actions could undermine the rule of law and lead to institutional chaos.
• Role of Key Figures: Legal experts and journalists provide grave assessments of the potential erosion of democratic norms.
• Elon Musk’s Influence: As a powerful tech figure, Musk’s defiance adds another layer of unpredictability to the crisis.
• Congressional Limitations: Partisan loyalties inhibit effective Congressional intervention, leaving limited avenues for action.
• State and Public Response: Emphasis on the importance of state-level leadership and active public engagement to uphold constitutional principles.
• Supreme Court’s Challenges: Without executive compliance, the judiciary’s ability to enforce rulings is significantly hampered.
• Personal Resilience: Guests share their strategies for maintaining composure and hope amidst national turmoil.

This episode serves as a critical examination of the current state of American governance, highlighting the urgent need for reinvigorated commitment to constitutional principles and the rule of law.

Transcript

[Preet Bharara]

I've heard that. I got a shout out.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you did. Well, it's mostly because when Elon sues us and puts us in jail, you're our first call.

[Preet Bharara]

Well, I hope for you it's the first, not the second.

[George Conway]

It's on.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. I'm coming to you from the brink of the constitutional crisis. Or maybe not. I think so. In the past three weeks, President Trump has flooded the zone with executive orders, 61 and counting. As of this taping. They've been all over the map, from trying to overturn birthright citizenship to banning gender affirming care for transgender teens, to freezing government funds, including for scientific research, to memos that put over 2,000 USAID workers on leave. So far, more than 40 lawsuits have been filed by states, attorneys general, unions and nonprofits. At least 11 judges have placed stays on a few of the rulings. But on Monday, a judge ruled that Trump had failed to comply with his court order. And that's just the first one. The question is, what recourse do courts, Congress and states have if the president just ignores judicial rulings? I want to talk about all that today and whether it constitutes a constitutional crisis with a lineup of highly experienced and esteemed legal and political exper. Preet Bharara is a former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York and currently a partner at the white shoe law firm Wilmer Hale. Plus, he's the host of the Vox Media Podcast Network's Stay Tuned with Pred. George Conway is a lawyer who has argued cases before the Supreme Court. He became an outspoken anti Trump conservative during the first Trump administration while his then wife Kellyanne Conway worked as an advisor to Trump. Jamie Gangel is an award winning journalist and special correspondent at CNN. She's been covering Trump 2, reporting on the flurry of orders coming out of the White House, and Jonathan Kanter, who served as Assistant Attorney General for antitrust in the Department of Justice during the Biden administration. He was a well known critic of big Tech and he previously worked at the Federal Trade Commission as an antitrust lawyer. Also, I'm excited to announce that on and Pivot will be returning to south by Southwest this year as part of the official Vox Media podcast stage presented by smartsheet on Sunday, March 9th. Scott and I will be doing Pivot in the morning followed by an episode of on with guest Chelsea Handler in the afternoon. Visit voxmedia.comsxsw to learn more and see everything else happening on the Vox Media podcast stage. That should be fun. But for today, not so much. We're in the slash and burn second term so buckle up and stay with us.

[Preet Bharara]

Foreign.

[George Conway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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Yeah you can save them wireless and.

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[Kara Swisher]

It is on. Jamie, Preet, George and John, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on on.

[Preet Bharara]

Thanks for having us.

[Jamie Gangel]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Yeah, great to be here.

[George Conway]

Thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, we're talking about some serious constitutional crisis issues. So are you ready to go and give us some insight? Cuz everybody is freaking out who I know. So I've been texting with some of you since Vice President Jayda Mansa's post on X this weekend, which prompted me to do this. I'm sure I wasn't the only one considering your legal and political expertise just to get everyone on the same page. On Sunday morning, Vance tweeted, if a judge tried to tell a general how to conduct a military operation, that would be illegal. If a judge tried to command the attorney general and how to use her discretion as a prosecutor, that's also illegal. Judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power. There is, there's a series of rules in federal court that have stopped or at least slowed down President Trump's slew of executive orders. I think there's 61 at this point. It's unclear whether Vance was talking about a specific judge or speaking in broader terms. But I'd love your first thoughts when you read this. Preet. You start and then Jamie, George and then John.

[Preet Bharara]

Yeah, look, it's of a piece with a lot of statements being made by a lot of people who went to, at least According to the U.S. news and World Report rankings, very fine and selective law schools. They seem to be forgetting a lot of things. And at its most innocuous, it is an expression of disagreement with one or more judges rulings that happens all the time. It is okay and constitutional and consistent with the values of our democracy and the First Amendment. For people, including people like us on a podcast to criticize judicial rulings and to criticize judges, we do it all the time. I myself have criticized Judge Eileen Cannon in Florida anyone of a number of times. So if it's that, and he's speaking to an audience that wants Trump to be able to do whatever he wants and the Doge to do whatever he wants, that's one thing. On the other hand, at the other end of the spectrum, if it's really the laying of a foundation, and I'm not there yet, but I hear people's concern about it laying the foundation for outright defiance of court orders. Well, that's something quite different. You know, the language that I think is even more crazy than what J.D. vance used was another very fine law school educated, went to a very fine law school, Mike Lee, who I believe is a United States senator, and he talked about this decision by Judge Engelmeier with respect to access to sensitive treasury information. It's a temporary decision by a temporary judge who's very well respected in the Southern District of New York about which they can have another argument on Friday, three days from now. And Mike Lee writes, this has the feeling of a couple, not a military coup, but a judicial one. That's just plain crazy bonkers shit. And they should knock it off.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, George?

[George Conway]

Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I agree basically with everything that Preet says, except that I do believe that's where we're headed. And you know, what J.D. vance said was literally a truism. Literally. But that's not the way he meant it. This is an administration that insists on violating laws. They do not care about appropriations bills. They do not care what the statutes say. Right now, they are running roughshod over the Article 1 powers of Congress to appropriate and to have that money spent. And it would be, as J.D. vance points out, a violation of Article 2 for, you know, the speaker of the House to direct the President or the Chief justice of the United States to direct the President's disposition of troops in a. In a war. Okay, that, all that said said, that's not what's happening here in the sense that that's not what this administration's position is going to be. This administration is essentially run by sociopaths, by psychopaths. Okay? I've been, you've heard me talk about Trump being a sociopath and a psychopath before. He is not alone. He has attracted others. One of them is running around the government with a bunch of kids, looking into computer files and doing more. And they. Sociopaths do not follow rules. They think they are above the rules. They think they make the rules. They are arbitrary and capricious. And they. And this is where we are now. He is going to, at some point in the not too distant future, wholesale say these courts are biased against me. And he'll say that even about the Supreme Court. He'll say, you know, he attacked Mike Pence. He'll attack the Supreme Court. He will not obey their orders.

[Kara Swisher]

He will not obey their orders.

[George Conway]

And then it is at that point, point that basically the courts become useless, the law becomes useless because it can't be enforced. And he has the power to do this, the raw power to do this, not the constitutional power, because the way that courts enforce orders are basically through the United States Marshals. The United States Marshals Service is controlled by the Department of Justice. And so Trump has to. Basically, all he has to do is put somebody there who is going to follow his orders not to enforce judicial orders against him, and it's over. Our 236 year experiment in the rule of law, in federal rule of law and constitutionalism is effectively over unless people get into the streets and try to take it back.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll get to that in a second. All right, well then, Jamie, follow that.

[Jamie Gangel]

So I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a psychiatrist. So I will leave it to Preet and George to deal with those. But what I will tell you as a reporter is that when I spoke to legal sources, judicial sources, former DOJ people, FBI people across the government, what they said when they looked at Vance's post, when they looked. Elon Musk also posted something about 1% of judges should be fired. What they said is we are in uncharted territory. The lights are blinking red, and these are pretty tough cookies who've been around a long time. And the word that I heard over and over again was that they were scared. I've never heard any of these people use that word before. And it's about one thing they do believe, as George was that we are on the verge of a constitutional crisis if we're not there already. And I think the Mike Lee post that Preet raised is critical because it shows that Trump has surprise, surprise support from Republicans on Capitol Hill. But their real concern is that Trump is emboldened, that this is not Trump 1.0, there are no guardrails, and that he feels perfectly comfortable going into this territory. And let's just remember one other thing. This is what Donald Trump is used to doing. He does not mind going to court and defying court. This is what he's been doing his whole career. And he's very aggressive about it.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, John?

[Jonathan Kanter]

Yep. I think it's important to distinguish between constitutional questions and constitutional crisis. And I think we need to avoid being hyperbolic about the former, the constitutional questions, and being extremely concerned about the latter. So for as long as our country has existed, there have been questions about power. Who has more power? The executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judicial branch. That tug of war defines our legal system. And almost every administration thinks they have more power probably than they do or not enough power, and they exert it. And that's okay. This happened during the Biden administration administration, student loan forgiveness or non compete roles. And what happens, Chamber of commerce or somebody goes into a court in Texas and then that court issues nationwide injunction that stops a policy that the executive branch believes will help people, which the.

[Kara Swisher]

Executive branch agreed to once the court had ruled.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Well, that's where I'm gonna go in a moment. So it is extremely frustrating. And there used to be norms in our society, pre social media, pre current rules of engagement, that you shouldn't criticize court. And there Is some logic to that. Right. Because if you undermine confidence in the courts, then the judicial system breaks down. Being upset at a court, being upset at a judge. And listen, I've been on the receiving end of rulings that I think were bad rulings. It's okay. Constitutional crisis exists when a court says, hey, you have to stop doing something. Right. You're violating the law. Right. Our Constitution exists with a code. And that code, it's actually far more fragile than people realize, is that when the court says you have to stop doing something, you stop doing it. And from time to time, people violate that. But in mass, having one branch of government essentially say, I no longer recognize the applicability of the other branch of government, that is a constitutional crisis. And that is where I think we have to worry.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you suggest we're there?

[Jonathan Kanter]

I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. I think we are. There's lack of confidence.

[Kara Swisher]

And George Saints. Yes. I have confused. I get that. We are there.

[George Conway]

Okay, let's say the precipice is the end of a cliff like the ones you see on the Roadrunner. Right. We are holding the anvil with our foot hanging over the ledge right now.

[Preet Bharara]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

All right.

[George Conway]

That's where we are. We are this close.

[Preet Bharara]

You know what's crazy?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, go ahead, Preeth.

[Preet Bharara]

What's crazy about this vociferous reaction? The judiciary is full of Trump appointees, full chock full of Trump appointees at the district court level, at the circuit court level, he appointed a third of the Supreme Court justices who are there now. He has a 6, 3 margin of conservatives to liberals. And he has four years to appoint another whole legion of judges at every branch of the judiciary. And in that context, at the beginning of a litigation with one temporary, not particularly substantive ruling, they have lost their minds. That telegraphs something I think very dangerous.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, let me keep going. Vance has been pushing the idea of unfettered executive power for years. Here's an interview though, that Vance gave on Jack Murphy Live in 2021.

[George Conway]

I think that what Trump should do, like if I was giving him one piece of advice, fire every single mid level bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state. Replace them with our people. And when the courts. Cuz you will get taken to court. And then when the courts stop, you stand before the country like Andrew Jackson did and say the Chief justice has made his ruling, now let him enforce it. Because this is, I think, a constitutional level crisis. If we continue to let bureaucrats control the entire country, even when Republicans win elections, then we've lost. We've just permanently lost. We've permanently given up.

[Kara Swisher]

So he's just turned that on his head. So he proposed a government purge that's been halted for now. And Monday, a judge in Boston kept a hold on Trump's government employee buyout offer in place. But clearly, from his perspective, it's the agencies with the nonpartisan civil servants that constitute the crisis, not the administration disregarding the rule of law. Quite a radical idea, which he's been talking about for a while. Go through this. Each of you, when he says that, because he's flipping it, that what we're doing is stopping them who have taken too much power. George, you go first.

[George Conway]

Yeah. I mean, that is the way we're going to have the American equivalent of the enabling of 1933, when Hitler got the Reichstag to pass a law that basically gave him all power, including the power to legislate. This is effectively what they are intending to do. And that is exactly what J.D. vance is describing. We're going to do whatever we want. We don't care whether the laws apply to us, and we are violating them. And we are not going to let judges tell us we can't do what we're going to do. Okay. This is a complete obliteration of the separation of powers that they are contemplating. Okay. Donald Trump is everything to Donald Trump. His view is Article two lets me do whatever I want. And so that's where we are headed. And it is not ambiguous at all. It's just a question of time.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Jamie, how do you look at it when you hear of J.D. vance saying that just four years ago?

[Jamie Gangel]

Look, my concern goes back to who's going to stop them. The Republicans control the House and the Senate. They, according to sources that I've talked to up on the Hill, and these are Republican sources, those Republican elected officials are not listening to their voters yet, you know, last week, their phones were inundated with concern. They are still aligned with Donald Trump. They are still, you know, loyal to him. They're putting through all of his cabinet members. I don't see anyone in the Republican Party. And let's just, you know, say the obvious. They control the House, they control the Senate. Who's in any way willing to stand up to Trump? So, just to go back to being on the verge of a constitutional crisis, if you don't have Congress willing to stand up to him and you don't have the party willing to stand up to him, there is no Barry Goldwater there, then what's going to make him stop is the question that I keep hearing from people.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Jamie Gangel]

You talk about Richard Nixon. He had respect for the system. In the end, he did feel shame. When Barry Goldwater came to him, there was a response. Nixon had respect enough for the institution to resign. There are no Republicans who are going to tell him to stop thus far. And you know, Donald Trump does not have the guardrails of the first administration in General Kelly, General Mattis, other people he has picked so far, as we've seen. Yes, people. But I also don't think that we see that Trump has personal guardrails, personal restraint that will stop him.

[Kara Swisher]

Preet, talk about that idea of that. There isn't a way anyone to stop.

[Preet Bharara]

It's a big problem in some ways. I think the greatest risk is right now, according to some. Right. He's in whatever honeymoon period you have. In 2.0, he's at his highest political approval rating of either term. The vibe has shifted. According to various people. Everyone is supporting him. His ratings on particular items like handling the economy, being aggressive, being focused, being energetic are all sky high for him. And someone put it, I think, meaning well, but it causes you to shudder when you hear it. If Trump doesn't defy the courts now, he might not be able to in the relatively near future. The other thing I will say, by the way, not on some of the issues we've been discussing, but there are other things that sometimes temper Trump. When there's overwhelming bipartisan public opinion turning against him. Like happened with the separation of families at the border, he changed his course. And then when he was gonna, I'm not an economist, but when he's gonna impose those tariffs, those crazy tariffs on our allies and neighbors, the market tanked.

[Kara Swisher]

He responds to the market.

[Preet Bharara]

That's not a great guardrail for the constitutional questions that we're all assembled here to talk about. But there are things that caused him to think twice.

[Kara Swisher]

John, you were in government. Had Biden done something like this, what would someone like you have done? You were a high ranking Justice Department official. Just imagine that's what happens mentally within these institutions.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Yeah. It's unthinkable that you would defy a court order. As someone who swore an oath, it's now thinkable. Well, this is exactly the problem, especially.

[Preet Bharara]

When you have appeals.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Yes. So here's again, I think it's really important to make this distinction. There's a difference between saying, hey, I'm not gonna devote my resources to enforce the law versus saying a court is telling me to stop doing something, and I'm gonna give the court the middle finger and just do it anyway. Right. That is uncharted territory, certainly in a government wide way. Right. And that is the moment. Right. We're not there yet. I'm glad we're not there yet. We might be. And if we are, it is a constitutional crisis versus a constitutional question.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Bombas. Look outside, it's still winter, but you can ride out the rest of the cold weather in a nice little cocoon of Bombas socks, slippers, and underwear. They say their secret is in the fabric, like cozy merino wool or breathable seamless fabric they use in their athletic socks. And the details matter, too. So they design everything to be comfortable for long wear. I've tried Bombas myself and I'm a fan. I'm actually wearing their socks right now. They're incredibly soft. I also use their socks for plane rides, the ones that have compression. And in fact, I walk around the house in their slippers, which are incredibly comfortable. They're my favorite socks, completely. Everyone in my family use Bombas. My older sons, my little kids, and we all love them. So we really are a Bombas family. Bombas wants you to know about their mission, which is for every item you purchase, they donate one to someone facing homelessness. So try Bombas now. Head over to bombas.com kara and use the code kara for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com Cara code karacheckout. You will not regret it. This episode is brought to you by On Investing, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. I'm Kathy Jones, Schwab's chief fixed income strategist. And I'm Liz Ann Saunders, Schwab's chief investment strategist. Between us, we have decades of experience studying the indicators that drive the economy and how they can have a direct impact on your investments. We know that investors have a lot of questions about the markets and the economy, and we're here to help. Join us each week as we explore questions like how do you evaluate corporate bonds? And what sectors of the stock market are outperforming? So Kathy will analyze what's happening in the bond market and at the Fed, and I'll give you our latest analysis of the equities market and the U.S. economy. And we often interview prominent guests from across the world of investing and business. So download the latest episode and [e-mail] on investing or wherever you get your pipe support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Indeed. It's a couple weeks into the new year, but you might still be looking to hire that open position from 2024. It's time to get that spot filled and start your 2025 off right with the help of Indeed.

[Preet Bharara]

Wait, you have another podcast?

[Kara Swisher]

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[Jamie Gangel]

I think he is the factor. He is overwhelming the system. I was talking to someone yesterday who said, we all need to do triage, learn to do triage, just to be able to deal with the combination of legal cases and executive orders and Musk and his team running around town. I asked someone yesterday, do we even have a list of the agencies that he's been into? I'm not sure we really understand clearly every place he's been. So I think the speed is really a problem. As you said, he's not scared to break dishes, he's not scared of the courts. And to go back to something that Preet said, and Jonathan mentioned this, which I think is a critical counterpoint to the speed, it's going to take a while for voters to catch up. It's going to take a while for the voter to realize, oh, I wanted the consumer protection bureau, oh, I need those community health centers in my community that are the only way for me to get medical care. I just think, as Preet said, the fact that they can do it so quickly now and that Musk is in there is just perhaps the most important tool they have.

[Jonathan Kanter]

This is the problem when you let businesses run our country, right. You know, I was against this when the Obama administration let the Googles of the world come in and take over our government, right. And we all turned a blind eye. But this is a fully realized version of that where these, you know, tech all guards, they think they know how to do better. They run it like they're a founder. But this is not a startup, right? And they don't have a golden share. This is a country that is for the people, by the people, and there are consequences to actions. And I think we need to do a much better job at saying that the people in government need to be wholly in service of the American people and nobody else.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Jonathan, it's called hardcore. It's hardcore and it's founder mode. So get out of their fucking way.

[Preet Bharara]

Apreet One thing I would say is none of this is very conservative. Is it radical, rapid change, extrajudicial defiance of the judiciary? None of that is a conservative approach. So to all the people who are debating whether or not Donald Trump is a conservative, I think the answer to that question in many respects and in many ways is no.

[George Conway]

To me, there's never been a debate.

[Preet Bharara]

No, no, I think that's right. Transactional and self interested only wherever that is on the ideological spectrum. I think we spent a lot of time parsing out whether the Congress is supine, whether the executive branch is overly muscular and the judiciary somewhere in between. And the fourth branch, the fourth Estate, some of us are in that estate, are doing their jobs. I think eventually, if you move too fast, too far, without understanding the consequences and without bringing people along and overreading your mandate, you're gonna fall on your face. Or to use a different Greek metaphor, you're gonna fly too close to the sun.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Preet Bharara]

And I think we are not a fledgling democracy. We're a fledgling society. And if you try to do too much too fast, I have great confidence that there will be a counter effect.

[Kara Swisher]

Before George talk about that, because Elon hasn't been stopped. He's never been stopped. This is how he operates.

[George Conway]

I agree with a lot of what I've been hearing in the sense that you can't run the government like a business. Why people like Elon Musk have been able to make so much money. Why all these companies that are being quiet now and trying to gain the favor of the government. What they don't understand, deep down, is what I would tell all these CEOs is it's the stability that we have in the United States, created by the rule of law, that allows us to be able to profit the way we profit and to have the world's greatest economy. And that goes to the point we were just. That Preet was just making. If you go far too fast, you create instability, and it is not a reliable world in which to invest. So they're going to learn that lesson. The problem is, as you say, Kara, there's a lag time. All right? People are going to understand maybe in six months, maybe in two years, that this doesn't help the price of eggs. Shutting down USAID isn't going to help farmers. It's going to hurt farmers. Right? They're going to learn all of these things in due course. But most people don't understand the way things work. I agree with Jonathan that legislators have a duty to go and try to explain that to the people. Political leadership of all kinds have the obligation to do that. But, of course, at this point in time, we're not seeing that kind of leadership. So where does this leave us? Well, what's going to happen is he's going to transgress these boundaries. He will stop obeying court orders. At first, he may just do it subcellaneo. I mean, it's a problem that Justice Department lawyers always have is they may not know what their clients are because the government is so big. But in this circumstance, it's compounded by the fact that nobody is acting in good faith. And lawyers are gonna go in and make representations of the court that are based upon lies because they're being lied to. And they're gonna violate the court orders bit by bit. And then finally, they will declare that these orders are unlawful, that the President cannot be told what to do about anything because he is an independent co equal branch. This is the J.D. vance situation. And then chaos will ensue. But Trump is going to lie about the source of the chaos. The source of the chaos is him and Elon. But he is going to say that it is the Democrats, it is Canada, it is Greenland. He is going to lie. And a portion of the public is going to agree with that or accept it, because they don't. They're not watching this podcast, they're watching Fox News.

[Kara Swisher]

So one of the things that they do do is deflect and everything else. But there are ways to deal with that. Of course, over the many years, and it's very difficult when someone's pointing elsewh. We've heard a number of Democrats saying it's a constitutional crisis from a different perspective. But what can Congress do if he ignores the courts? Congressman Al Green, for example, said last week he was filing articles of impeachment against Trump. But of course, that's not effective. They can block this is on the Democratic side. And then on the Republican side, they've been largely silent or defended Trump and Musk's action. So they're compliant. So I'd like each of you very briefly to talk about what. What happens in the congressional sense from a legal point of view. John, you start and then we'll go through everybody.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Yeah. The part here that puzzles me the most is the appropriations process. And so anyone who's been in Washington knows that the most powerful portion of Congress is the Appropriations Committee, the people who control the money. And they don't like it. Republican, Democrat or moderate, anyone who tells them how to spend the money. And they get very defensive and very protective of that. And they very much believe in the power of the purse lying with the Congress, not with the executive. And I do find it puzzling, because that is typically where you'd expect the opposition to come from. The question is, if Congress has made a decision telling you how to spend it, it's the job of the government to deliver the money, not to determine where it goes. And to the extent there's a really important constitutional issue here, it's that the decisions are being made in the executive branch. And this was litigated in the 1970s. There's something called the Impoundment Act. There was A train versus New, where New York was concerned, that the money that was supposed to go to fund sewage removal and things like that, the money was being impounded and diverted elsewhere. And the court held quite clearly, and George, you may know more about this than I do, but quite clearly that ultimately it was the obligation of the executive branch to make sure that the money went where Congress said it was supposed to go.

[George Conway]

Yeah, that's absolutely right. The irony was these were conservatives interpreting the text of statutes that basically said, you must spend this money in word, substance. They didn't even get the Supreme Court in training, didn't even get to the Impoundment Control act, which adds all sorts of bells and whistles to it.

[Kara Swisher]

But anyway, so, George, now you go what Congress can do virtually nothing.

[George Conway]

Okay. Because what are you gonna do? Pass a law. Let's pass a law that says money that we have said must be spent, must be spent. Okay, let's assume Trump signs the law, which he will not do. He will veto it. Let's assume. Or let's assume he vetoes it and it passes both houses of Congress by two thirds majority. He's just going to ignore that law. The only thing they have, what the framers intended for them to have, is impeachment. You remove a president who disobeys the law, who refuses to carry out his oath, who commits high crimes and misdemeanors. But we know the Republicans will not do that. So essentially, Congress has taken itself out of the fight for democracy, and that's why it's going to come down to the face off with the courts. But the problem with that is the courts have no soldiers, they have no police. I mean, the Supreme Court has a police, police department, but it only works to, you know, clear people out of their hallways. They have no people to enforce their order other than people who are beholden to Donald J. Trump.

[Jamie Gangel]

All right, Jamie, look, you said, what can Congress do? I think it's what will they do?

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Jamie Gangel]

And I come to the same place as George. As long as the Republicans can, both the House and Senate, I don't see anything. Also, just from a political perspective, I can't tell you the number of people, civilians and people in politics who keep saying, where are the Democrats? And I think that is a problem. Just messaging, rapid response, knowing how to deal with Trump. I will say that one of the things in dealing with Trump, the Democrats have a lot of work to do. But again, to get to timing, we have two years until the midterm elections. Maybe when we get closer Some of these Republican members of Congress are gonna get worried about getting reelected, and they will start listening to the voters calling about, you know, why didn't my Social Security check come, or Consumer Protection Bureau or the price of eggs. But, you know, to go back to timing right now, I don't see them doing anything.

[Kara Swisher]

Preet.

[Preet Bharara]

I think that if I were a Democratic member of the House and there's a limit to what I'm about to say, I would be spending a lot of time thinking about how to get the house back in 2026 and how I would exercise my committee authorities, notwithstanding the fact that you might not get the Senate back and how I'm going to exercise the power of my gavel, because until then, I think nothing's going to happen. By the way, the other. Another pessimistic note that I'll sound is further to what George and others were saying. There's all this debate about whether or not you can close the Department of Education or close usaid. You don't have to close anything to render vast government agencies ineffective or powerless or superfluous or useless. The CFPB essentially is no longer effective in any way, shape or form because it's been taken over in an acting capacity by a member of Trump's Cabinet who's just basically, we're not gonna do anything and you don't have to dismantle the building. There are large swaths of the Justice Department who don't have work to do now, because Pam Bondi has said by virtue of a memo, and you can agree or disagree, but this is a fact of life that there are certain statutes, including the Foreign Corrupt Practices act, that we're really just not gonna care about anymore and enforce anymore. And there's nothing that Congress can do. Congress can't force the enforcement of priorities the most it can do potentially. And this is what Jonathan has been talking about. And the courts can also prevent you from doing something that's bad. But if your goal is to stop doing stuff, it's very hard to get you to do it.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Can I jump in on that car? Because I think this is where we need to mobilize as a citizenry and speak up in our own voices, right? People are pissed off about healthcare. They're pissed off about egg prices. They're pissed off about the state of education. Farmers are upset about the ability to operate an independent family farm. How is any of this. This is a question. It's not rhet. It's an actual question. How does addressing USAID help that? How does eliminating the Department of Education help that right? There needs to be public accountability because in the absence of a mechanism for Congress to say stop. Simply protesting outside an agency and saying we will win is not gonna get you anywhere. You gotta go in and explain to people, okay, you're at a moment, you're gonna lose this, you're gonna lose healthcare, you're gonna lose your Social Security check, you're gonna lose your kids education and teachers are gonna get fired do. If you don't want it, then you have to speak up. Members of Congress have the benefit of understanding how this stuff works and they have to go back to their districts and explain it.

[Kara Swisher]

So one of the other ways is the free press, obviously. Elon Musk said in October that all government data should be made public for maximum transparency. I personally laughed when he said that cuz he's the most secretive person I know and also tends to not tell the truth much of the time. But then on Monday, the White House designated Musk Doge office the Department of Government Efficiency, which I call now the Department of Government Extermination to be part of the executive office of the President, which means it now falls under the Presidential Records act, which means we can't look at what he's done until 2037 at some date like that. So Jamie, where is the role of the media here and how moves like this exacerbate the crisis? There was also reports they were using signal which you can't see, and hiding what they're doing. And of course they are secretive and they think stealth is. They imagine themselves ninjas, I think, in some weird way, and they're ninja ing their way through the government.

[Jamie Gangel]

I'll go back to the word triage. First of all, I think we're all being overwhelmed again, this notion of the speed flooding the zone, pick your term. But I think that what we sort of have to do is focus on if we can, what are the shiny objects and what's the substance? You know, where is the real danger? I just want to go back to Elon Musk quickly. I've spoken to IT tech people, sources in the government who've been doing this for a long time. They are very concerned about these Doge teams that have gone in and had access to computers. One source called them the tech lads and they meant that actually as a sign of respect. They said they're better than we are, they are the best in the world and we don't really know what they're doing in those computers, what they may be leaving behind and what the national security implications could be going way forward.

[George Conway]

Yeah, and not only that, the other advantage they have is it's easier to destroy than to build.

[Jonathan Kanter]

That's a really important point because ultimately, again, it's about solving problems. The administration made promises that they were gonna fix, you know, trade imbalances, they were going to fix the ability for people to get high paying jobs, they were going to fix prices. And the question needs to be asked, well, how does breaking this down fix that? How does it make it better?

[Kara Swisher]

Well, well, I think if you read their books, actually, if you read Peter Thiel's book, they do wanna destroy it. And start from zero, start from this unitary executive theory. I've said this for years, I'm like, they wanna break it. And they're like, oh, fix it. I'm like, no, break it, ruin it.

[George Conway]

It's been a fantasy on the right enhanced by kind of libertarian Ayn Rand kind of elements to basically destroy the government. It used to be just rhetoric. I mean, I kind of sympathized with the rhetoric when it was just in the abstract decades ago. I'll give an example is Grover Norquist used to talk about, our object is to make the government so small we can drown it in a bathtub. They just want to drown it in the bathtub right now. And that's, you know, again, it's just easier to destroy than it is to build. And you know, the, the people, these tech oligarchs, they think all of these people out here doing whatever they do do are useless.

[Jonathan Kanter]

They're just ones and zeros.

[Preet Bharara]

Okay, but at least George will have measles.

[Kara Swisher]

We'll be back in a minute. Support for on with Kara swisher comes from NerdWallet. Folks, if you're anything like me, your day is a non stop balancing act. You've got things to do, places to be. And honestly, hunting for the best auto insurance deals is not exactly the top of the list. That's where the nerds at NerdWallet come in. They've already crunched the numbers so you don't have to. You want a lower auto insurance rate, right? But you've also got your life. You've got to write that speech for your friend's wedding, your new business to grow. And in between all of this, you've got to figure out when you're taking your dog to the vet. NerdWallet makes it easy. Answer a few quick questions and boom, your best insurance match right then and there. Looks like you have the time to hit up the vet and grab a nice leisurely cup of coffee while you're out using your brain power on what actually matters. Smart Letting the nerds use their brainpower on helping you find the right financial products. Genius. Get matched with lower auto insurance rates [e-mail] not all applicants will qualify for the lowest monthly payments. NerdWallet Insurance Services, California resident license number OK 92033 over the last few weeks.

[Jonathan Kanter]

America's health and science agencies have been shaken. There's been funding freezes, communications, gag orders, censorship of.

[George Conway]

It's really a chaotic picture.

[Kara Swisher]

I am really scared.

[George Conway]

The United States was the best place.

[Jamie Gangel]

In the world to do science, and.

[George Conway]

That has never felt more threatened in.

[Jonathan Kanter]

My career than it does right now.

[George Conway]

This week on Unexplainable.

[Jonathan Kanter]

What does all this mean for the.

[Preet Bharara]

Future of science in America? Follow Unexplainable for new episodes every Wednesday.

[Jonathan Kanter]

The Republicans have been saying lots of things.

[George Conway]

Just yesterday, their leader said he wants to own Gaza.

[Kara Swisher]

The US Will take over the Gaza.

[George Conway]

Strip and we will do a job with it, too. We'll own it. On Monday, the Secretary of state said an entire federal agency was insubordinate.

[Preet Bharara]

USAID in particular.

[Jonathan Kanter]

They refused to tell us anything.

[Kara Swisher]

We won't tell you what the money's.

[Preet Bharara]

Going to, where the money's for, who has it.

[George Conway]

Over the weekend, Vice President Elon Musk, the richest man on earth, tweeted about the same agency that, you know, gives money to the poorest people on earth.

[Jamie Gangel]

We spent the weekend feeding USAID into the wood chipper. Could gone to some great parties, did that instead.

[George Conway]

But what have the Democrats been saying?

[Jamie Gangel]

People are aroused. I haven't seen people so aroused in.

[George Conway]

A very, very long time.

[Kara Swisher]

Huh.

[George Conway]

That's a weird way to put it.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Senator, we're gonna ask what exactly is.

[George Conway]

The Democrats strategy to push back on.

[Preet Bharara]

Republicans on today's.

[Kara Swisher]

The White House has pushed back on these days quoting each executive order will hold up in court because of every action of the Trump Vance administration is completely lawful. There's a thing being tested here what is known as the Take care clause, which is part of the Constitution that grants and constrains presidential power. I'd love each of you to talk about something that they've done that is not lawful, even though they say they're completely lawful. And then we'll finish up talking about the Supreme Court. George, why don't you start? Start?

[George Conway]

Yeah. I mean, it's great that you mentioned the take care clause. The take care clause is that clause in The Constitution that tells the executive what he is supposed to do, which is that he is supposed to take care that the laws, the constitutional laws, are faithfully executed. And that's why the Constitution essentially has an oath that repeats that. And what we have is a government that basically does not care to follow the law if they disagree with the law. I mean, a perfect example is the clause that talks about citizenship in the 14th Amendment, says that all persons born or naturalized in the United States shall be citizens. It's not that complicated. They're going to lose that case. They're going to lose it in the district court, they're going to lose it in every court of appeals, and they will lose it in the Supreme Court. I'll give a second example is all this funding stuff, the statute says you shall spend this money on X, you are required to spend it on X. It is basically just because that is what the law is. And if you're taking care that the laws be faithfully executed, if, if you're the executive, you're told by a statute that you have to spend money on, you've got to spend that money. So where does this lead? They're going to lose that case in the Supreme Court, too, just the way the city of New York won that case that Jonathan talked about earlier. The problem is we are not going to get to the Supreme Court. And if we got to the Supreme Court, he's going to say, these justices disappointed me. They are not doing what I appointed them to do. He's just going to basically run roughshod over the judiciary because the judiciary has no troops and no police officers of its own. The reason why we are able to sustain a constitutional democracy all these years, even though the judiciary has no soldiers, is because we respect the law.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay?

[George Conway]

We have shame and we know the difference between right and wrong. But right now, we have a government that is incapable of that because it's run by sociopaths.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, so Preet George is saying the Supremes, you know, they did give presidential immunity to Trump and other whatever the president is, and it happens to be Trump. What happens when it gets there?

[Preet Bharara]

So I'm not sure I'm yet where George is, who says we're not going to get there. I think there's some things that Trump will lose ultimately and some things that he will win ultimately. But I'll make a slightly different point. If you're the strategist behind all these policies, it almost doesn't matter if you're going to ultimately win or lose, because it's a win win for you no matter what. And this is true in a bunch of different areas. So on birthright citizenship, which I agree, slam dunk, they're going to lose ultimate ultimately. But even if they lose ultimately, what they've accomplished along the way is a message to everybody politically about where they stand on this stuff in America first. And a certain kind of American, they've sent a message to people abroad that don't be so sure. If you come to this country and some people think that's a good thing and some people can think that's a bad thing, and you will accomplish some kind of, I think, chilling effect which is part of their goal on the civil service firings and reduction of force, I think that's gonna violate and be contravening law as well. But along the way, people will be gone if the status quo is not maintained and people's interest in working for government is gonna be mitigated and diminished because they're not gonna believe they have the same job security they had before. The same thing with sending questionnaires to FBI agents asking if they touched the January 6th case in any way, even if that's ultimately withdrawn or shown to be in bad faith or stopped, it is telling every f FBI agent going forward, before I open an investigation or even agree to handle a lead in my jurisdiction, I have to think to myself, does this target. Does this target in any way, is he any way connected to Donald Trump or his family or his resources or his businesses? I'm not going to risk my livelihood being taken away from me. So it almost doesn't matter, win or lose.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep.

[George Conway]

No, I absolutely agree with that. And I'll make a point. I mean, it just brings to mind what happened with that memo that Bo said sent out about Mayor Adams.

[Kara Swisher]

This is New York Mayor.

[George Conway]

Go ahead. It is completely insane that that prosecution is going to be dismissed because, you know, they don't have a substantive basis for saying, oh, we're wrong, he's not corrupt. Okay. They didn't cite one. They're not citing one. They're basically saying he's got an election coming up a year from now. Okay. This year, like later at the end of the year. He was indicted last year. Okay. So what this is telling people is that if you are friendly with Donald Trump. Trump, you're gonna get a pass. So that tells people out there who are doing his bidding that the law's not gonna be enforced against them. And it tells prosecutors, even in cases that don't normally go to the. To Main justice that they better be careful when it comes to people who are. I mean, it's. And that's the chilling effect that Creed is talking about.

[Kara Swisher]

It's the same thing with the press. Okay, Jamie, just.

[Jamie Gangel]

Look, I'm not the Supreme Court expert, but. So I'm gonna go 30,000ft here. My concern, look, government, it's nice if it's more efficient. We have a joke in my family. Are they getting the job done? Down at the dmv, we've all had frustrating moments, but to me, the number one job of a president is to keep our country safe at the end of the day. So when you look at this erosion of government, whether it is the case where they're trying to take away funding from nih, as Preetz says, well, welcome to the measles. Or the Eric Adams case, where who knows what kind of impact that's going to have. We now have this new version of the memo between the White House and doj, which traditionally was sort of a firewall that you're not supposed to talk to each other. Well, the message, as George says, is chilling. But I just want to go back big picture. There's also a very serious national security concern. What does the Pentagon think about this? What do CIA agents, what do nsa, the national security implications, the erosion of our national security. I can't tell you the number of sources in intelligence and national security who have said to me that we are in an extraordinarily dangerous time because because of all of this chaos, because of taking apart the system, we are sitting ducks to be taken advantage of.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, I've heard that from many cybersecurity people. So, John, what are your thoughts? The supreme court has a 6 to 3 conservative majority. Do they have any role here and will they feel pressured to do a ruling that establishes their own independence and will it matter?

[Jonathan Kanter]

I think they will. I think they will. I think ultimately the question is whether the executive branch will listen. And I think that's why it goes down to the constitutional crisis. Because as we've discussed in this podcast, the Supreme Court does not have its own self enforcing mechanism. It has to rely on the executive branch to enforce the law. And if the executive branch isn't willing to listen to the Supreme Court because it disagrees, then the whole system breaks down and the honor code that I talked about at the beginning of our discussion becomes exposed. And the whole thing goes in terms of issues that make me really concerned. I think there hasn't been enough emphasis on privacy and ethics. And so I think the takeover of our government by corporate interests is something that I think we should be very concerned about. We don't want to live in a surveillance state, whether it's the federal government or private companies. And I think once we let those barriers drop, we are all at risk. Similarly, if people who have interest, financial interest in decisions that are being made or have a lot of power, then those financial interests distort their ability to use that power for the benefit of people. And I think those are the kinds of things that have really concerned me. And handing the keys of our government over to people who have a financial interest in the outcome is extremely dangerous.

[Kara Swisher]

So I want to finish up this end game. Obviously, most of the lawsuits against Trump's orders are filed by Democratic states. AGs and governors are also fighting back. New York Attorney General Letitia James warned New York hospitals last week they would be violating New York's anti discrimination laws if they stopped offering gender affirming care for people under 19. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker said he would not follow Trump's order eliminating birthright citizenships. States rights have long been a conservative rallying cry, but they could be the last defense for Democrats or others who oppose this. And we're describing a universe where the executive branch is openly defying the Supreme Court, where states are openly defying the executive branch. If we take it to the extreme, the rule of law does really begin to falter. And we know Trump has toyed with the idea of martial law before. Are states effective in any way? Jamie first, and then, George, very, very.

[Jamie Gangel]

Quickly, when I'm talking to politicians and elected officials on Congress who have not stepped up. They believe governors will be key here, that there may very well be a difference between living in a blue state and a red state in what happens. That's. That said, can I just say this issue of martial law, which I think we all have to keep an eye on. A lot of my national security sources have been saying people are gonna take to the streets, people are going to demonstrate. There's going to be a time when we're not gonna take this as they.

[Kara Swisher]

Have done in Germany or elsewhere.

[Jamie Gangel]

Right. Anymore. The concern is the next step, which is does that give Donald Trump an excuse to say we're going to have the Insurrection act, we have a national security issue here, and invoke martial law, and then we are way beyond a constitutional crisis?

[George Conway]

George, I'll add to that. I mean, I do think that the states are going to be very, very important, because I think, I think what we are seeing as we speak, as I've been saying, is that we're seeing the disintegration of the federal rule of law. I think he can. If there are people going to go out and march in the streets, he might declare martial law. But I also think there are going to be a lot of people who are going to disobey his orders in the government. American troops, for the most part, I think, are not going to shoot American citizens. I think there are going to be people who are going to disobey his lawless orders precisely because they take an oath of office to the Constitution and laws of the United States and not to Donald J. Trump. So what I think we're going to see at the federal level, at the end of the day, is complete chaos. And that's where the governors can come in. And I say this also for the reason that what's going to happen with the courts is the courts aren't going to be able to compel the federal government to do what it is supposed to be be doing. At the same time, the federal government isn't going to be able to compel states from doing what they believe they have an obligation to do under the Constitution. The only exception that could be the cutting off of appropriations. That could have an impact. We have to look to other sources of legal authority, where people exercise authority and. And are going to adhere to the rule of law. And that's gonna be state governors in most states or some states, and it's going to be state legislators and state judges. Okay, we are watching again in real time. The devolution of power to the states is part of what's happening here.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, last question for each of you. In the scenario you're talking about, which is pretty dire, each of you have been pretty dire. Thank you for the bummer interviews here. What's your personal plan? Game plan? Preet. First you. And then I want you to say something positive.

[Preet Bharara]

Lots of drug. No, I don't do drugs.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott Galloway's.

[Preet Bharara]

No. So look.

[Kara Swisher]

And which is positive, too.

[George Conway]

Yeah.

[Preet Bharara]

So maybe you've experienced this, Kara. After the election, people were like, I can't follow the news anymore. I can't bear it. I. And you and some others don't have that luxury because we're partly in this business and these are people who care about their country. But they said, I'm going to just garden, I'm going to play with my dog, I'm going to read novels, maybe I'll write a novel. And what I have seen, because these are people who have been good citizens and care about their country and want to be informed, is that there's been a gradual, I think, reassertion of citizenship on the part of people who care. They're a little bit nervous about it because it's a lot to take and it's a lot to deal with. But I think as every week goes by, we're only three weeks after the inauguration and people see what's happening and people are listening to conversations like this, I think they're more willing to not take all the same kinds of bait that they took the first time around. And eventually, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not the day after tomorrow, but eventually we'll form a coherent, I think, phalanx again against the worst things that are happening.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Do you have a personal plan?

[Preet Bharara]

My personal plan is to do the things that I love, not get overly freaked out about everything, try to maintain a calm demeanor, but every once in a while I curse. More on the podcast now, Carol.

[Kara Swisher]

Good, Excellent. I'll do mine. Very. My personal plan, I thought someone asked me what my personal gain comes. Elon does not like Carolina Swisher, for example. And I thought, oh, maybe I should be cautious. You know, I was talking to my wife and she goes, well, maybe you should be cautious. And I go, eh, no, fuck it, fuck it. Just fuck it.

[Preet Bharara]

No, I think the FBM helps.

[George Conway]

You only live once. That's correct.

[Kara Swisher]

Jonathan, what's yours? And then Jamie and then George. Go ahead.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Yeah, listen, I think I'll try to end on a more optimistic note, which is I believe in the resiliency of our country and our people. And I think one of the things that's gonna come out of this is people are gonna realize that they need to focus on the issues that matter matter most to the most Americans. And you can either give a negative vision of what that future looks like or you can give a positive vision. And I think it's time for a shift in new leadership, particularly in the Democratic Party. We need younger, we need more progressive voices who are going to focus on healthcare, who are going to focus on economy, who are going to focus on education, who are going to focus on the issues that people really care about.

[Kara Swisher]

Is there someone you think is doing a very.

[Jonathan Kanter]

I think there are a whole bunch of folks in the House, young members, Maggie Goodlander, Chris D'Aluisio, Becca Ballant, Pat Ryan. I think there are a whole bunch of folks who are emerging. And the other thing that gives me a sense of optimism is I think there are folks on the other side of the aisle. I think there are a whole new generation of conservatives that are realigning around issues that they believe are important, who are not in favor of tech oligarchs, who are not in favor of corporate power, who are not in favor of turning the keys of government over to Silicon Valley and Wall Street. And I think as time goes on, there's gonna be more opportunity for that realignment to come together and create a more positive vision for the future, even if they don't agree on everything.

[Kara Swisher]

Jamie.

[Jamie Gangel]

My biggest concern is the chilling effect this is having across the board. Chilling effect on journalists, chilling effect on government workers, chilling effect on elected officials. I'm also really concerned about misinformation so spread out. You know, you talked about people have turned off from the news, but they have not turned off from their phones. Right. They're still getting those algorithms. So I worry about that even more now than ever because of the chaos. My greatest hope that I'm optimistic about, I like these judges. I especially like judges who've been appointed by Donald Trump and other Republicans who are standing up. And I hope that my mother, who's turning 95, is a retired judge. So I really have hope that these judges are gonna stand up and do the right thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, that's great, George. Finish up.

[George Conway]

All right. So I agree with everybody here. I know that I sound like the purveyor of doom.

[Kara Swisher]

Cassandra.

[Jamie Gangel]

Cassandra.

[George Conway]

Cassandra. But I am optimistic, too, just not. Not in the short or medium terms. I think at the end of the day, the pendulum will swing. People will see the evils of Donald Trump and Elon Musk and this kind of autocracy that they're trying to create, this tech oligarchic autocracy, if you want to call it that. And they will begin to understand the importance of the rule of law once again in a way that has to be relearned every so often by free peoples. It's going to be the hard way, and we're going to go through some horrible moments in the interim. My personal plans, my original hope was that Kamala Harris would win the election. I could write a book upon what just happened. And I'm not going to do that now because it's still happening and it's getting worse. I'm going to go practice law again. I'm going to join a New York law firm. And that's a funny thing for me to say after having said I believe that the federal rule of law is about on the precipice here and that he's not going to obey court orders. But I do think, think it's important still to litigate, to have these judges, like the ones that Jamie has been talking about, including Republican judges, basically say this is illegal and we have to create that record of illegality. Even if he tells the courts to go screw themselves, you know, we have to keep fighting.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[George Conway]

But we have to understand what's at stake and how dangerous a moment this is. And I think we are going to go into the precipice. We're just gonna have to figure out a way to climb our way out of it.

[Kara Swisher]

I would. I completely agree with you. And we're all stay, all staying in the United States. It's our country.

[Preet Bharara]

Yes, we are.

[Kara Swisher]

We're all staying. Jamie. Yep.

[George Conway]

I'm looking for a Canadian girlfriend, but.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, we're not going anywhere. Sorry. Anyway, I appreciate it, all of you, and thank you so much. What an incredibly intelligent and fantastic conversation.

[Jamie Gangel]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Kanter]

Thanks.

[Preet Bharara]

Bye, folks.

[Kara Swisher]

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Kristin Castor Russell, Kateri Yocum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burns and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Furby and Claire Hyman. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're ready for the constitutional crisis. If not, you better go read the Constitution. It's a pretty cool document. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.