Loading summary
Transcript299 lines
- [00:00]
Kara Swisher
You don't want to be an influencer?
- [00:02]
Gary Ginsberg
Hell no.
- [00:03]
Kara Swisher
It's on. Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. This is on with Kara Swisher. And I'm Kara Swisher. Today we're going to talk about John F. Kennedy, Jr. His life, his legacy, and what our culture's ongoing fascination with him says about America.
- [00:28]
Gary Ginsberg
John.
- [00:28]
Kara Swisher
Nobody who knew him called him John. John was world famous from the moment his conception was announced. For years, he was considered the world's most eligible bachelor, and his entire adult life was spent at the intersection of media, celebrity, and politics. He founded George, a glossy magazine that covered politics with a style usually reserved for Hollywood. He seemed to foresee that power and entertainment were bound to collide in unexpected ways long before the rest of the political press caught on. He he's also the subject of a new documentary series from CNN called American prince, JFK Jr. That airs for three consecutive weekends. The first episode just premiered last Saturday. And my guests are Gary Ginsberg and Carol Radziwill, two close friends of John's who feature prominently in the documentary. Gary met John at Brown University, and he was a senior editor and legal counsel at George. Ginsburg went on to become an assistant counsel to President Clinton and a senior executive at News Corp. And Time Warner. He understands the inner workings of media and politics as well as any, and I've known him for a very long time. He also was a consulting producer on American Prince and the author of first the Powerful, Unsung and Unelected People who Shaped Our Presidents. Carol is a former journalist. Her work at ABC News won a Peabody and multiple Emmys. She's also a former cast member of the Real Housewives of New York. And her late husband, Anthony Radziwill was JFK Jr. S cousin and best friend. Radziwill is the author of three books, including the bestselling memoir what Remains, and she recently launched a newsletter on substack. Our expert question comes from Sasha Eisenberg, a former intern and editor at George magazine. He's a journalist and author of the Engagement America's Quarter Century Struggle Over Same Sex Marriage. Stick around. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow, who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work, the work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now, with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of your business. It, hr, customer service, and more. And that means your people can focus on the work that they want to do that's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get started@servicenow.com AI agents.
- [02:57]
Gary Ginsberg
Support for this show comes from Pure Leaf Iced Tea.
- [02:59]
Carol Radziwill
When you find yourself in the afternoon.
- [03:01]
Kara Swisher
Slump, you need the right thing to make you bounce back.
- [03:04]
Carol Radziwill
You need Pure Leaf iced tea.
- [03:06]
Gary Ginsberg
It's real brewed tea made in a.
- [03:08]
Carol Radziwill
Variety of bold flavors with just the right amount of naturally occurring caffeine.
- [03:13]
Kara Swisher
You're left feeling refreshed and revitalized so you can be ready to take on what's next. The next time you need to hit.
- [03:19]
Gary Ginsberg
The reset button, grab a Pure Leaf iced tea.
- [03:22]
Kara Swisher
Time for a tea break.
- [03:23]
Carol Radziwill
Time for a pure leaf. Support for this show comes from Robinhood. Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform? With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs. Trade all in one place. Get started now on Robinhood Trading. Crypto involves significant risk. Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto llc. Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services. Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or SIPIC. Protected Investing involves risk including loss of principal. Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC member sipic, a registered broker dealer.
- [04:13]
Kara Swisher
It is all Gary and Carol, thanks for coming on on.
- [04:18]
Carol Radziwill
Thanks for having us.
- [04:19]
Kara Swisher
So for younger listeners who weren't around to witness it, explain the mythology around JFK and why he captured the American imagination. Gary, you go first.
- [04:28]
Carol Radziwill
Well, I think for a younger generation that really only knew John, if they knew him at all, as the kid who saluted his dad's coffin and was perhaps, you know, the world's sexiest man alive, I think it was important to tell a much more nuanced full story about John. Cause he was more than just that. He actually, you know, was somebody. First of all, he was a great, great guy. He was a good friend. But he had a vision about politics that I think is really important for today. He thought of him himself as kind of a post partisan. He didn't believe in partisan politics. Even though he was a lifelong Democrat. His family embodied the Democratic Party. He really thought that effective policymaking would be done through post partisanship. And he wanted a magazine that brought far more people into the process than traditionally read political magazines. You know, at the time, political magazines were black and white. Almost all men either came from the right or the left. And he said, I want to disrupt that. I want to make it far more accessible so that women read it. You know, he started George magazine, which obviously, I guess that's kind of assumed by this, but he started a magazine that appealed to women, appealed to the entirety of the country. Usually political magazines were only read by people on the coast. He wanted to make politics accessible so that there was greater kind of, I guess, a coming together of people around critical policymaking, and that's what we desperately need today. And I thought it was very relevant.
- [05:51]
Kara Swisher
Went the opposite direction. Carol, too. In today's fragmented culture, it's impossible to capture the collective attention the way they. He did. And, you know, in various ways. Does anyone come close as Ivanka Trump? No. Alex Soros has money and political power, but not the look, I guess. I mean, and he's married someone who's well known. Is there anyone who comes close in that regard?
- [06:13]
Gary Ginsberg
Like a couple like that?
- [06:14]
Kara Swisher
Well, you call him America's prince in this thing.
- [06:16]
Gary Ginsberg
I mean, I don't think anyone has come close.
- [06:18]
Kara Swisher
Certainly not Don Jr. No.
- [06:21]
Gary Ginsberg
No. I think they're trying. I feel like the Trump family's trying to create some dynasty.
- [06:25]
Carol Radziwill
They would love it. I think they are, but they just, like.
- [06:28]
Gary Ginsberg
No one is considered, like, what is royalty in America now. It's really. It kind of died with him.
- [06:35]
Carol Radziwill
It did.
- [06:36]
Gary Ginsberg
Even within his own family, even within the Kennedy family, no one assumed the mantle of, like, American prince.
- [06:44]
Kara Swisher
Not RFK Jr. Definitely not. Double laugh, double laugh. So there isn't someone of that regard in politics now?
- [06:55]
Carol Radziwill
I don't think there is. And I think the world or the country desperately needs someone like that.
- [07:00]
Gary Ginsberg
Really?
- [07:00]
Kara Swisher
A dynasty?
- [07:01]
Carol Radziwill
Well, not a dynasty, just somebody who represents hope, idealism, can, you know, galvanize and bring cohesion to politics. Politics is so separated now, is so chaotic. I mean, I think we need that figure that kind of transcends. Wasn't it Obama politics for a minute, Which John did.
- [07:20]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. So let's talk. We're gonna talk first about the magazine and then I wanna talk about politics as one wonders what would happen today if had he lived. Like, he certainly would have been a political player, presumably.
- [07:29]
Carol Radziwill
I think so, yeah.
- [07:30]
Kara Swisher
So we'll get to that in a sec. But let's talk about George magazine. The idea for George was to create. Which is the center of this. Although it is a lot of handsome pictures of jfk, I think. Was there one you missed? I don't know.
- [07:42]
Gary Ginsberg
A lot of shit in the magazine. There was a short.
- [07:45]
Kara Swisher
I'M just saying the whole documentary is one giant, beautiful picture of the two. And there's a lot of them.
- [07:52]
Carol Radziwill
It's a rating driven business, I understand.
- [07:53]
Kara Swisher
But there wasn't a chess picture you missed. The idea for George was to create a glossy magazine, as you said, to draw in readers who didn't normally care about politics. Now this was in the 90s when magazines drove popular culture, which you point out in ways social media does today. But it still was a tough sell. And they ended up partnering with David Pecker, who was then CEO of Hachette. Not the greatest figure in the world, like not the top level, drop drawer figure that John was. For example, Pecker would then go on to buy the national enquiry where we'd, quote, catch and kill unflattering sources for Donald Trump. So talk about the funding and why that was difficult at the time and what was it like working with Pecker and why was it so hard to fund the concept?
- [08:33]
Carol Radziwill
Well, because political magazines back then, or actually any magazine, and John learned this when he went to magazine school, like a year and a half before he started the magazine is in the first day. The first line that the teacher told all these wannabe publishers and editors is, look, seven out of eight magazines that start fail within the first year. Chances are, guys, even if you get funding, which is really hard, you're gonna fail. So John knew it's an, you know, it was a tough business back then, very competitive, very costly, and you had to get readership, you had to get advertising. Wasn't easy. Look, they went to Hachette because Hachette was the one that wanted it. John, as I say in the documentary, got pitches from everybody. He was able to get in those meetings, almost any door he wanted because they all wanted to take the pitch from him. But funding a political magazine that completely broke the mold of what a political magazine was at the time was not an easy sell. And for John, who had never, you know, edited a magazine, and Michael Berman, who never published a magazine, it was, you know, two neophytes coming and trying to get a lot of money to start a magazine because they weren't cheap. I mean, you know, the business.
- [09:36]
Kara Swisher
Right. Well, that was the reason they would have these meetings but not give them the money.
- [09:40]
Carol Radziwill
So Hachette was the only one, at the end of the day, who ponied up the money. And as I say in the documentary, you know, wasn't Conde Nast, right?
- [09:47]
Kara Swisher
No.
- [09:48]
Carol Radziwill
And so they knew what they were getting. And Packer was smart in that he knew he could use John to sell ads not just for George, but for his entire stable of magazines. And he used John right to that effect. And we probably didn't get the money that we should have gotten to produce top quality content. He just kind of took a lot.
- [10:09]
Kara Swisher
Of that money, stuck it over somewhere else.
- [10:12]
Carol Radziwill
Exactly.
- [10:12]
Kara Swisher
So George magazine was JFK's creation. But Carol, you point out in the documentary that it was as much Carolyn Bessette Kennedy's maybe as it was John's. She didn't come from a blue blooded family and like you, she worked at Calder, a discount department store as a teen. But before marrying John she worked as a publicist at Calvin Klein. She certainly upped herself rather significantly. Was an elegant young woman. What was it like for her to navigate this world and talk about her impact on the magazine, especially its aesthetics?
- [10:41]
Gary Ginsberg
I mean Carolyn came from building a big brand in pr, so she was very aware of that world. She had an incredible aesthetic and style. When I say style, I don't mean like she wore a nice outfit, she just lived with style. She had a style in everything that she did. And John didn't really have that style. Like that was all Carolyn. So the look of the magazine, all the covers, even the fashion brands that would advertise, I mean these are all her relationships. And I find that because there's really nothing written about her and she died so young and they were married only three years, that most of the focus on her is like she's fashion icon, she looks good in clothes, but she was really so much more than that. So I think in the documentary I wanted to make that point, that this was, you know, she was a real partner to him. She never was a lady to lunch. In fact at some point she, she didn't know what it was going to be like to be Mrs. Kennedy. And she had bought all these like suits and like she thought oh there's be fundraisers and lunches and then she's like fuck that, she's not interested in that. So she gave me all these suits. At the time I was working at ABC News, so it was appropriate for me. But no, she was a real partner in every way in John's life.
- [11:52]
Kara Swisher
Talk about the magazine cover that probably you have to have a cover to be influential. And obviously the first one of Cindy Crawford is George Washington and Amid Drift is iconic and she talked about it in the documentary.
- [12:02]
Gary Ginsberg
Well, I mean to have someone that had never been done before in a political magazine, to have a beautiful dressed up as George Washington. I think the idea was to have all these celebrities dress as washing as George Washington. But it ended soon. I think, if you think about. I don't think Cindy was controversial, except that it had never been done before. But then Drew Barrymore as Marilyn Monroe, I think as that cover was a little bit more controversial, but, you know, that's what you had to do. And it was a great cover. And, you know, and John was.
- [12:33]
Carol Radziwill
That was the Happy Birthday, Mr. President cover.
- [12:36]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [12:37]
Gary Ginsberg
But, like, John wasn't above, you know, I think partly he'd been used so.
- [12:43]
Kara Swisher
Much by his tribute, which you note in the use. And Bissette was pushing up against that.
- [12:48]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, like, he was probably taking ownership, you know, of some of these narratives and these stories about his family, and he was gonna use it to his benefit. And good for him on that. And Carolyn did not. Yeah, she, you know, as any, you know, young married woman, she weeded his social garden, and she really did not want people around him that she felt were using him.
- [13:08]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, she had a pretty good, keen eye for that.
- [13:10]
Gary Ginsberg
She did.
- [13:11]
Kara Swisher
Right. Which, of course, people would, so. But there was a media narrative that basically portrayed John as a Nepo baby, probably the original one, and an intellectual lightweight, given the, you know, the Honku flunks and stuff like that, which you note. And in the documentary, Kurt Anderson, Tina Brown and Graydon Carter, who edited New York magazine, Vanity Fair in New York, are all expressed skepticism as his skills as an editor. Talk about what was needed. Because there were sort of errors he made as an editor, too, when he had dinner with Fidel Castro in Cuba and never wrote the story, which would. One might imagine. He walked out. In an interview with Oliver Stone, who directed the conspiracy film jfk. He pretty much ignored the Monica Lewinsky scandal because he was a big fan of Clinton's, who was by far the biggest story. Absolutely. So talk about getting the intellectual gravitas to run a magazine.
- [13:58]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, I mean, look, it was. It was a. He was learning on the job, no question. But he was a guy who liked to take on challenges. You know, you say he's a Nepo baby. He actually never thought of himself as a Nepo baby.
- [14:09]
Kara Swisher
He really thought of himself.
- [14:09]
Gary Ginsberg
I don't think the word existed at the time. No, he didn't.
- [14:11]
Carol Radziwill
But he. I mean, what was really kind of, I think, was unique about John is he really felt like he had to go out and prove himself right. He. He was born with every privilege, which.
- [14:20]
Kara Swisher
You know, in the documentary.
- [14:21]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah. And. But he said, you know, multiple times, I gotta do it on my own. I gotta figure out what I'm good at. And if I want a life in public, you know, office, I gotta prove to voters that I deserve it. So I want to go out and do something that's substantive, that creates jobs, that produces a product that's real, tangible. So, you know, I think that George was that vehicle for him to go out and prove to the world that he was a serious guy. Was he a great editor? You know, look, he was learning on the job, and he made a lot of mistakes. We all made a lot. I mean, if you look at the. The average age of the editors in our first couple years, probably 26, 27. But he was a great leader. He instilled a lot of, you know, excitement for the task. We worked our asses off. We were, you know, look, it was a huge success before. It wasn't. I mean, it was the biggest launch in magazine industry.
- [15:13]
Kara Swisher
Indeed. Yeah.
- [15:14]
Carol Radziwill
And we just, you know, look, there was multiple factors that led to its ultimate demise. A lot of people wanted it to die. A lot of people thought that we were challenging the status quo. They didn't like it. You know, the denizens of political purity kind of came after us right out of the gate. They said we were dumbing down politics. We were, you know, simplifying it. But we stuck to our knitting. We kept true to our mission. It's just we lost ad pages. Hachette really didn't support it in the way they needed to to make it work. Cause it was a costly endeavor. It was, you know, four color. Four color magazines are expensive. It was beautiful, you know. It was beautiful. Yeah.
- [15:50]
Kara Swisher
Still have the original, right?
- [15:51]
Carol Radziwill
And we just were kind of drained of resources and look at that.
- [15:55]
Kara Swisher
So as editor, John had the power to shape public narratives as you talk about wanting to change the way we talked about politics. And he's also hounded by the tabloid press and powerless to control what was written about him. That's kind of a power. Is this a way to sort of communicate to the world in a way that he was unable? They had multiple run ins with paparazzi, which is obviously unusual for a magazine editor like David Remmeck's never been stalked by paparazzi. I don't think they would recognize him if he fell on them. So talk a little bit about that paradox, because this is, as you said, is an opportunity for him to shape a narrative, a different narrative.
- [16:31]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah. He always thought he was fair game for paparazzi. He got it. You know, and he used to say, look, they got a job to do. And he was an incredibly gracious gu. And he wanted to give them the shot because he knew that they're, you know, they're sitting out there for five, six hours, they need a shot to make their money. And I think Carolyn had a harder time dealing with that than John did, for obvious reasons. But I think, yeah, look, George was definitely a vehicle for him to turn the tables.
- [16:57]
Kara Swisher
So what was the message, from your perspective in the ones he edited?
- [17:01]
Carol Radziwill
What was the message that he was going for?
- [17:03]
Kara Swisher
The idea there's still post partisanship.
- [17:05]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, I mean, he really believed in this. I mean, even when we were in college, you know, we were at Brown University, what was in vogue was to hate Ronald Reagan. And he was the only guy I knew who was going around and said, hey, wait a minute, you know, Ronald Reagan. There's actually some really good things about Ronald Reagan. Great communicator, understands how to use the bully pull, but very firm in his convictions. People are like, whoa. Like, where is this coming from? He was a bit of an iconoclast when it came to politics. And he got in his head.
- [17:29]
Kara Swisher
He didn't embrace Pat Buchanan.
- [17:31]
Carol Radziwill
No, he did not. No. He was a step too far.
- [17:34]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [17:34]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah.
- [17:35]
Carol Radziwill
But I had a regular. He was a little bit, I guess, Pollyannish about it, believing that we could get to this post partisan era. But as we point out in the documentary, it was the very time that Newt Gingrich, you know, Contract Against America and Rush Limbaugh, and so it was the wrong time, but he had very high aspirations for political.
- [17:56]
Kara Swisher
But aren't politics inherently partisan?
- [17:58]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, of course.
- [17:59]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, of course.
- [18:00]
Carol Radziwill
That's what I'm saying is that, you know, he was an ideal Murdoch.
- [18:02]
Kara Swisher
I mean, who's the best at it? The best at partisanship or creating.
- [18:06]
Carol Radziwill
Indeed, I think John would be a shocked and disappointed to see just how fractured we are today. His hope was the exact opposite.
- [18:14]
Kara Swisher
Was it naive to think that way?
- [18:17]
Carol Radziwill
I mean, in hindsight, yeah. But at the time, it was aspirational.
- [18:21]
Kara Swisher
And at the time of his death, John was considering entering politics. A run for governor of New York probably had a good chance of winning. Ever since President Trump won in 2016, some Democrats have been calling for a party to run a celebrity or someone like Oprah, the Rock, maybe even Jon Stewart. Some people feel like electing a celebrity as president has gotten into the mess we're in today. Where do you come down? I'm just curious. You live in celebrity culture?
- [18:43]
Gary Ginsberg
No, I mean, I'm against all of that the idea of celebrity as president or, you know, the country needs to be run like a business. It doesn't. It may be a not for profit business. I think we've seen in the last 10 years of Donald Trump, I mean, who was a reality star and that's really where he made his mark and that's how people think of him is it's been an unmitigated disaster on almost every level. So no, I don't think we need Oprah to run or Jon Stewart. They need to do what they do best. And all these politicians in my view. And I, I'm on social media a lot and I get a lot of my news from social media now. Even tick tock. I gotta be honest. No, most Americans and they all seem to be trying to be like influencers. And I noticed they're all cursing now ever since Trump cursed and now it's given free reign. So like they're like being like, you know, like a real person down to earth because they're saying like a lot of fucks and stuff. But like, I don't know, I don't think our country needs that. I think we need a president to lift us up, to be aspirational, to be someone that we can't really relate to or identify with. That's what I think this country needs.
- [19:51]
Kara Swisher
Do you think that's going to go back to that? Because they're not interesting enough, right?
- [19:57]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah.
- [19:57]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [19:57]
Gary Ginsberg
No, Yeah. I think, you know, our country is very well entertained and not well informed.
- [20:04]
Kara Swisher
That's a really good way of putting it.
- [20:05]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah.
- [20:08]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from indeed. If you're a business owner, you probably found yourself in a situation where you need to hire someone yesterday. But how can you find amazing candidates Fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. With Sponsored Jobs, finding the right candidates just got even faster. Sponsored Jobs posts appear prominently in search results, helping you reach the right people sooner. And the impact is real. According to Indeed data, Jobs sponsored directly on Indeed receive 45% more applications than those that aren't. Plus, with Indeed sponsored Jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts, and you pay only for results. How fast is it? Well, according to their data, in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on INDEED worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. You can speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs. More visibility@ Indeed.com on just go to Indeed.com on right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com on terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [21:33]
Carol Radziwill
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download Today.
- [21:59]
Kara Swisher
Support for On with Kara Swisher comes from Groons if you've ever gone down the Internet rabbit hole of trying different nutrition solutions, you likely found a bunch of weird conspiracy theories that range from eating everything you can find to starvation. Thankfully, there is a product that can help improve your skin, gut health and immunity without the crazy ideas attached to them. It's called Grunds. Grunds are a convenient, comprehensive formula packed into a daily snack pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic. It's all of those things and then some for a fraction of the price. In a Gruynes daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, 6 grams of prebiotic fiber and more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient dense and whole foods, all of which help you out in different ways. For example, Groons has six times the gut health ingredients compared to the leading greens powders. It contains biotin and niacmi, which help with thicker hair, nails and skin health. They also contain mushrooms, which can help with brain function. And of course, you're probably familiar with vitamin C and how it's great for your immune system. On top of all, Groons are vegan and free of nuts, dairy and gluten. Get up to 52% off when you go to Gruns Co and use the code Carra that's G R U N S C O using the code Cara K A R A for 52% off. So every episode we get an expert. Send us a question. Let's hear yours.
- [23:25]
Carol Radziwill
I'm Sasha Eisenberg, a journalist and author of books including the Engagement. I worked at George as an intern.
- [23:31]
Kara Swisher
And I think a lot about how.
- [23:32]
Carol Radziwill
The magazine would cover Washington today. On one hand, John was farsighted in recognizing the collision of pop culture and politics that produced Trump. On the other hand, he was obsessed with the idea of bringing out the fun in politics in a way that maybe made sense in the low stakes 1990s, but seems unimaginable now. So my question for Gary and Carol is, what would George look like if it had survived into the Trump era?
- [23:55]
Kara Swisher
All right, let's hear from both of you.
- [23:56]
Gary Ginsberg
Gary.
- [23:56]
Carol Radziwill
Well, first of all, Sasha was one of John's absolute favorite editors. He came as a 15 year old 9th grader. John Somm literally ran after him down the street and said, you've got to come work here. And he was a total superstar. So it's nice to hear. Sasha's good.
- [24:12]
Kara Swisher
I'm glad we kicked him.
- [24:13]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, listen, I mean, John was ahead of his time and seeing that, that collision between politics and popular culture, I mean, he would, I think, you know, Donald Trump is the absolute embodiment of that. And I think, I think George would be thriving today, actually, because it hit the moment really 25 years too early.
- [24:29]
Kara Swisher
And in what way? What would be on the COVID right now?
- [24:32]
Carol Radziwill
Oh, there's so much material. Right, right. I mean, you pick it. You could be on the COVID Carol.
- [24:38]
Kara Swisher
No, no, thank you. No, I don't think it would sell.
- [24:40]
Gary Ginsberg
Many copies dressed as George Washington.
- [24:42]
Kara Swisher
No, no, thank you. Yeah, you don't want to see my midriff. What about.
- [24:45]
Gary Ginsberg
What do you think, Carol? No, I think it would. I, you know, he died right at the beginning of what become the digital age. And I just think that the transformation, the segue to digital age, I think if that was made and made well made. Right. I think George would be one of the biggest magazines or whatever they're called now because I don't think they're magazines, but he'd have a big imprint and.
- [25:07]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah.
- [25:09]
Kara Swisher
Would it be more sharper edged and partisan now?
- [25:11]
Carol Radziwill
It'd have to be. Yeah, I think it would have to be. That's exactly where I was going to go.
- [25:15]
Gary Ginsberg
It wouldn't be like right wing or progressive. You know, he'd have mixed satire. He'd have. Exactly. And he'd have really a mix. You know, he'd have AOC on the COVID and then he'd have.
- [25:29]
Carol Radziwill
And then he'd have Peter Thiel.
- [25:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, something like that. You just noted what is a magazine now?
- [25:36]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah.
- [25:37]
Kara Swisher
What would he start today if he was doing that?
- [25:39]
Carol Radziwill
He wouldn't start a magazine. Who starts a magazine?
- [25:41]
Gary Ginsberg
He'd start a media company. He'd have a podcast.
- [25:44]
Carol Radziwill
Right. He'd have a podcast. He'd do video. He'd do.
- [25:48]
Kara Swisher
Unless he was running for president or Ben.
- [25:49]
Gary Ginsberg
President.
- [25:50]
Carol Radziwill
He'd be a retired president.
- [25:51]
Gary Ginsberg
He'd be a retired president.
- [25:52]
Carol Radziwill
He'd be a retired president. Yeah.
- [25:54]
Kara Swisher
You think?
- [25:55]
Gary Ginsberg
No, he's only 65.
- [25:57]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, but he'd be long anyway. His time would have been late 2008, 2012, who knows? I mean, look, it's. Everything had to go, right?
- [26:05]
Kara Swisher
No. Well, he still can be president because, as you know, MAGA thinks he's alive.
- [26:09]
Gary Ginsberg
I know. You know, even I. It's so. It's really menacing and disturbing. I get pictures from DMs, from people circling, like, these rallies, saying, this is John. And then sometimes they circle some other guy in the audience and they claim it's Anthony. It's really fucking disturbing.
- [26:27]
Kara Swisher
This is your husband?
- [26:29]
Gary Ginsberg
This is my husband, who I buried and my cousin and friends. For people to say that, for people to believe it, it's insane.
- [26:37]
Kara Swisher
What do you do when that happens?
- [26:39]
Gary Ginsberg
I delete and block and report. I mean, I've blocked so many.
- [26:43]
Kara Swisher
You don't respond to anybody?
- [26:44]
Gary Ginsberg
Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
- [26:46]
Kara Swisher
Why do you think people do that? Especially with John. Why John? I mean, obviously Bill G is putting chips in our head. Everyone has their own little conspiracy theory attached to them, but it's only a few people.
- [26:57]
Gary Ginsberg
They want to latch on to the legacy of John and the glamour of him and sort of attach that to Donald Trump. And, you know, there was a couple of pictures. You know, John, obviously being in the magazine business in the 90s, knew Donald Trump. There's a couple pictures of him. They just want to use that. I don't know who started it, but it's really disturbing. Creepy. No, it's so creepy. And to send it to me and his family, it's just. I don't know. Know. These people are just crazy.
- [27:25]
Kara Swisher
Yes, indeed they are.
- [27:26]
Gary Ginsberg
And mean. It's mean.
- [27:27]
Kara Swisher
That one's inexplicable. It's others you can trace. I get the Bill Gates one. I get that because he gave so much money to vaccines, et cetera, and then it links with a vaccine.
- [27:36]
Gary Ginsberg
By the way, I just got my measles vaccine.
- [27:39]
Kara Swisher
Oh, again, it didn't work.
- [27:40]
Gary Ginsberg
Right. It didn't work because I was in the 60s.
- [27:42]
Kara Swisher
In the 60s, right.
- [27:43]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah.
- [27:44]
Gary Ginsberg
So I got it tested. As soon as RFK got that position, I was like, I'm not that. I'm not depending on him for anything. And sure enough, I had no antibody. So I. Yeah, like last week, got my vaccine good.
- [27:56]
Kara Swisher
I'm very glad about that. So let's talk about this sort of continuing obsession with JFK Jr. Here you are making A documentary many decades later, what it says about us as a culture. One of the things Dr. Murshee doesn't get into, as we said, the post mortem role in the QAnon canon. As we said, it's too nutty to explain, but they think he's alive. Just for people who didn't know what we were just referencing. And a QAnon adherent has bought the copyright to George magazine and revived it and it now exists as a fun house mirror version of the original magazine. Talk a little bit about this, Gary.
- [28:31]
Carol Radziwill
It's disturbing to say the least. I mean, what happened was Hearst bought Hachette's magazines I don't know how many years ago and decided obviously not to publish the magazine again. So the trademark just went into the public domain and QAnon and no one was following it. No one.
- [28:48]
Gary Ginsberg
Why didn't you know about it?
- [28:49]
Carol Radziwill
I had no idea. I wasn't an owner of.
- [28:51]
Kara Swisher
Gary.
- [28:51]
Gary Ginsberg
It's all my fault, Gary, believe me.
- [28:54]
Carol Radziwill
I heard from a lot of people like, how did this happen? But you know, who knew that the trademark was sitting at hers?
- [28:59]
Gary Ginsberg
The QAnon people knew it was on.
- [29:01]
Carol Radziwill
A market and they just, they saw it, they probably bid a dollar and they got it. Yeah, no, it's terrible. And a lot of people are deeply and rightfully disturbed by it and there's.
- [29:11]
Kara Swisher
Nothing can be done about it.
- [29:13]
Carol Radziwill
No, no, they bought it.
- [29:14]
Kara Swisher
They bought it.
- [29:14]
Gary Ginsberg
Well, you can be bought back from them.
- [29:17]
Carol Radziwill
Who's going to buy it back?
- [29:18]
Gary Ginsberg
Well, I don't know, but it's just really, I mean, that is John's legacy. And that's part why, I think, at least I participated in, in this particular documentary, because it was so important to John.
- [29:31]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. One of the other people who's also very outspoken is Jack Schlossberg, who's JFK's 32 year old grandson and JFK Jr. S nephew himself. Looks quite a lot like him, like he does. And he's actually deep into sort of developing his troll presence online. He's quite good at it. On Jen Psaki's podcast, he said, quote, I think the Internet is a place where it's difficult to break through, especially if you're not saying something that's controversially somehow unexpected. Talk about what he's doing. I'm just curious, do you talk to him about it? I've texted with him a number of times.
- [30:00]
Gary Ginsberg
Oh. I mean, I, I don't, to be honest, I haven't, I haven't seen him since he was a little boy, but I Have seen the Tiktoks and some of the Instagram stuff. And, you know, I think everyone, everyone expresses themselves in a certain way. And he's very Gen Z. Millennial. I don't millennial. And he, and he does it, he does it well. And he's really, I mean, he's so brave. Obviously. I went on this reality show and it was nothing compared to like going on TikTok now and like, talking your mind about what you. And really pissing people off.
- [30:33]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah. I've known him his whole life. Incredibly well educated. You know, he can do pretty much whatever he wants. It's interesting what, you know, he's doing now and making a name for himself. And I hope he, you know, uses it now to, he could have a brilliant future, whatever he decides to do.
- [30:47]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah. He's a little trolling. He actually asked me, I said, you need to, to go away for a minute. Like, you, you're a little too there. But I, I, he's probably right that you don't need to go away. Is that, Would that have been the inevitable evolution of George, that kind of thing? I can't see trolling.
- [31:01]
Carol Radziwill
No, it's not, John. I mean, that was not his style, but.
- [31:04]
Gary Ginsberg
No, no, but I mean, it's just.
- [31:06]
Carol Radziwill
Hard to, it's hard to imagine.
- [31:07]
Gary Ginsberg
It's hard to imagine, right? You know, tweeting, tweeting, or being on TikTok. Like, I do see Jack on TikTok, and I'm like, okay. You know, he's, he, he's definitely got that personality and he's. But I don't.
- [31:21]
Carol Radziwill
Sean was more long. He was more long form.
- [31:23]
Kara Swisher
He was long form. In a short form era. In a short form era. Right.
- [31:27]
Carol Radziwill
Not sure it would have worked today.
- [31:29]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, no, it didn't. It wouldn't. Another thing, Ryan Murphy is producing a series about JFK Jr. And Carolyn called American Love Story. Their lives often get the true crime treatment. Every channel you can think of has done sort of cheap recreation of the accident and what happened. And I'd love to know how you all feel about these shows. Cause it sort of seems like mining them for entertainment in some way.
- [31:51]
Gary Ginsberg
You know, the unfortunate thing about these shows, these, like, all these, like, Ryan McMurphy.
- [31:56]
Kara Swisher
McMurphy. I was an intern at the Washington Post with him, by the way.
- [32:00]
Carol Radziwill
Were you really?
- [32:01]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, he was a pain in the ass.
- [32:04]
Gary Ginsberg
He was just the same. Well, I mean, he's in the volume business too, like Mike McDonald's. But no, I think people watch those shows and they think it's then that that narrative becomes the story and that becomes, you know, like with the Social.
- [32:18]
Kara Swisher
Network and Mark Zuckerberg, whatever happens, it's.
- [32:21]
Carol Radziwill
Good that we came out first, don't you think?
- [32:22]
Gary Ginsberg
Well, I mean, it is another reason why I did participate in this. To get this, to get like more of the real story and more of the human story out. I don't know. You know, Mr. Murphy's going to do what he's gonna do and he's gonna make his show. I feel like, go make your show and don't pretend that you're paying honor to these people or it's an homage. And he's been doing a couple interviews. I think Jack sort of push back at some of the stuff. And then he said something super absurd and rude to Jack and I actually, you know, because I'm a little shyer, but I, I commented saying like, you know, John and my late husband Anthony were Jack's godfathers. Like to say to, to him, I don't understand. It's odd that you would be defending a relative you don't remember is like insane, offensive, absurd. It's like, go make your show and people will watch it and you're going to move on and you're going to make 10 other shows. But don't try to couch it in that you're doing anyone a favor or it's going to be an homage and like, stop doing interviews because you suck at it.
- [33:24]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. Also the clothes. People are really upset about the clothes for some people.
- [33:28]
Gary Ginsberg
Yes. Well, I mean, it looks.
- [33:29]
Carol Radziwill
It did look a little weird.
- [33:30]
Gary Ginsberg
It looks like, like they're like. It's Sockshop.
- [33:34]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't look like way she dressed.
- [33:36]
Gary Ginsberg
And also, I gotta be honest, like, to. People only know Carolyn through these paparazzi photos and she is not what she appears to be in these photos, which is a little like haunting, hunted head down and stuff. That was a choice. She didn't want to look up. She didn't want, you know, in the 90s pictures that you could make a living. You know, those were worth a lot of money. And she wasn't going to give these photographers that photo. So she kept her head down. But she was not someone in need of protection. She was the protector. Like, she protected all of us. She protected John. So, like, I just feel like I'm sure if they're based this TV show on that kind of image, it's not gonna be great. And I say this knowing full well he's probably like writing right now a character called Carol. So Carol's gonna take a turn for the worst. She's gonna have like shingles. Yeah, shingles. She's gonna have psoriasis.
- [34:30]
Kara Swisher
So talk about Carolyn in that way because those are the pictures. She's quite beautiful, elegant, clearly could really wear, you know, very elegant clothes and very Calvin Klein in that whole genre. Talk about her when you were just different than that she was. Who was considered cold by the media, for example?
- [34:48]
Gary Ginsberg
Well, she was considered that because she wouldn't sit for an interview. And also this idea of her as a fashionista, I guess she had, you know, we have to accept that mantle now because she's gone for so long. But, like, if she wanted to be that, she would have done interviews with Vogue, with Harper's Bazaar, with all of these. They all asked her, they all. Everyone was dying to do an interview with her. She could have, you know, been, you know, a guest editor at Vogue. And she chose not to do any of that because she felt like she didn't have anything really. And she knew that they were just interviewing her because she was John's wife and that wasn't good enough for her. So, you know, this idea of her as like this. This me quiet, like hunted. Oh, no, I can't handle. This is not who she was.
- [35:29]
Kara Swisher
Well, explain who she was then.
- [35:30]
Gary Ginsberg
She was someone who was very, very intelligent and that came through her work with John and George. She was someone who was very strong willed who was not going to bend to anyone else's idea of her. She got invited to all those social parties and stuff. She pick and choose the ones that she wanted to go to because she didn't want to be seen as that. And again, she was 33 when she died. Like, she was like at a moment where she was in a young marriage, she was figuring out the next thing that she wanted to do to have impact. And it wasn't all of these things that people were trying to. She was. Didn't want to be socialite, she didn't want to be fashionista. She didn't want to dwell in those. In that kind of character. So, you know, it's hard to know what she would do, right, because. Because she was taken so young, but she was just. And she was a very loyal friend. She was the friend that everyone went to for advice. She always had good advice. She could read a room.
- [36:26]
Kara Swisher
So you called her a pain in the ass in the documentary, at least that she was seen like that by people at George.
- [36:30]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, well, because she was talking about it. She was strong willed and she'd come in and she had very firm opinions about the look and the feel of the magazine. And she'd make her opinions pretty well known. And you know, some people gravitated to it, some people didn't.
- [36:45]
Gary Ginsberg
She wasn't afraid to make enemies?
- [36:47]
Carol Radziwill
No, no. I mean, she was fierce, but she had a great aesthetic taste, a great, you know, sense of what popped off a page, great sense of color and made a lot of really good contributions. It just, it was, you know, there were people whose job it was to determine that she came in, you know, so there was obvious tension when she was there. But John backed her up 100% and I think the magazine looked better as a result.
- [37:12]
Kara Swisher
We'll be back in a minute. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of.
- [37:25]
Carol Radziwill
Unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun.
- [37:31]
Kara Swisher
If we made $15 bills but it.
- [37:33]
Carol Radziwill
Turns out that's the very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial.
- [37:38]
Kara Swisher
Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of 45 for a 3 month plan equivalent to 15 per month. Required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra.
- [37:49]
Gary Ginsberg
See mintmobile.com Put us in a box. Go ahead. That just gives us something to break out of because the next generation 2025 GMC terrain elevation is raising the standard of what comes standard. As far as expectations go, why meet them when you can shatter them?
- [38:12]
Carol Radziwill
What we choose to challenge, we challenge completely.
- [38:16]
Gary Ginsberg
We are professional grade.
- [38:17]
Carol Radziwill
Visit gmc.com to learn more. Trip planner by Expedia. You were made to outdo your holiday, your hammocking and your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.
- [38:36]
Kara Swisher
So let's end by touching on some news items. Obviously the most powerful candidate these days is RFK Jr. He just canceled nearly $500 million in MRNA vaccine funding back in January. JFK's sister Carolyn Kennedy called RFK a predator. And he was unqualified to lead the HHS and addicted to attention and power. How do you deal with the family deal with the legacy might now be RFK Jr over someone like John or.
- [39:00]
Carol Radziwill
Well, that's why we made the doc is to remind people that there was.
- [39:03]
Gary Ginsberg
Some elegance and he's undermining everything that the family, the Kennedy family stood for. Really everything on every level. I knew him well, him and his wife Mary. I spent a Lot of time with them from the time my husband died in 1999 also until, like, for a decade. And honestly, I can't reconcile the person I knew who was fierce environmental advocate and always. I mean, he had that weird thing about roadkill.
- [39:34]
Kara Swisher
Always.
- [39:35]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah. Okay.
- [39:35]
Kara Swisher
All right. Did you eat any of it?
- [39:37]
Gary Ginsberg
No. But he would pick it up from the road all the time and leave it in his minivan. And sometimes he'd forget. It'd be like a skunk under the seat. And his minivan always smelled of, like, death. But other than that weirdness, I just can't recognize who it is I thought I knew from this person that has appeared now on the scene. And I just don't know. You know, I haven't been in touch with them since Mary died. And that was sort of the breaking point for me. So it would be unfortunate if that was the legacy. I feel like their legacy is so powerful, though. Their brand is so powerful from the 60s and 70s.
- [40:16]
Kara Swisher
So there isn't. Everyone who is so powerful is not living. John or his father or anyone else. Right.
- [40:22]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah, but are they gonna remember, like, history, it's hard to write in the present. Are they gonna remember RFK as millions of children die?
- [40:29]
Kara Swisher
Certainly.
- [40:30]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah.
- [40:30]
Kara Swisher
Well, you know, or vaccine, you know, measles is back. Best friend to measles is really now the brand, the Kennedy brand, unfortunately.
- [40:38]
Gary Ginsberg
Well, I can't remise, but you got.
- [40:40]
Carol Radziwill
Timmy Shriver with his cause, has done great work. Caroline Kennedy's written really important books on First Amendment right of privilege.
- [40:49]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah, exactly.
- [40:49]
Carol Radziwill
So, I mean, it's not like the Kennedys haven't contributed mightily to.
- [40:53]
Gary Ginsberg
I think once Trump is out of office, I don't know, there'll be some sort of rejiggering.
- [41:01]
Kara Swisher
Although after he dropped out of the race, the Trump campaign released a memo hailing it as a win for Republicans and saying that every single state RFK junior Vote breaks for President Trump. Trump seemed to understand celebrity politics, the links with the Kennedys and what it would mean for him. Right. Why do you think Trump's and RFK's political brands, which are opposite so many ways, work so well together.
- [41:22]
Carol Radziwill
Together right now, I guess just extreme policies that appealed to extreme people. Yeah, it's kind of.
- [41:32]
Gary Ginsberg
He really made his mark being an anti vaxxer. That was his whole thing. And my feeling is like he had exhausted everything he could possibly write and talk about on the environment, which I think always was his true passion, at least when I knew him. And then like, okay, it was almost like a money thing. So how you got to switch and now you're going to write 10 books on. And pharmaceutical companies and vaccines. And that just became like. It's almost like a. To my head, it's like a business move.
- [41:58]
Kara Swisher
A grift. A grift.
- [42:00]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah. And, you know, grifters see grifters.
- [42:03]
Kara Swisher
Right, right. That's a really good point. So, Carol, you just had a reunion with Andy Cohen on Watch what Happens Live. After years of feuding with him, we now have a real. You did I pay attention. We now have a reality TV pres. As you noted, celebrity is president. And as a former journalist, you worked for abc, former Real Housew of New York and a member of the Kennedy. You understand every angle of this story, the intersection of pop culture and politics. What would you say your insight to power and celebrity is right now? And what's your takeaway? A quarter century after his death?
- [42:37]
Gary Ginsberg
Oh, my gosh. I always thought, like, when John first told me about George magazine, I just immediately thought, this is such a brilliant idea and so ahead of its time. People probably aren't ready for it. But, like, now it's arrived and now, I don't know. It's a complicated question. I mean, my reality show experience is, like, totally. It's just like, totally separate than anything I could imagine that I would want in politics. In fact, like on that show, Real Housewives, the year that Trump was running during the night, 2016, I was very, very against him and was very vocal about it on this. On this show, which never had politics on it before, I even said, you know, that he. He was. I mean, I called him a buffoon. This is in 2016. I mean, I was pretty vocal about it as much as I could. And Bravo, to their credit, aired it all. But I don't know. It doesn't seem to have an impact. Like, you know, he went on to win. I'd like to come back to a time where politics is a little more boring, to be honest, is boring and noble and something to aspire to or some people to look up to. It's almost like the President as, like, a role model. Like, he doesn't.
- [43:45]
Kara Swisher
Do you see that happening now, given you've been in all these areas? It's moved more towards Real Housewives than it has.
- [43:51]
Gary Ginsberg
Yes. No, I don't see it happening now. In fact, I just heard a rumor this could be totally made up, but one of my former cast members is considering getting into politics in Palm Beach.
- [44:03]
Kara Swisher
Right, but that makes sense. Why not?
- [44:06]
Gary Ginsberg
And I think if she did, she would Win. I mean, I was just like.
- [44:09]
Kara Swisher
Have you ever considered Carol?
- [44:13]
Carol Radziwill
I love that idea.
- [44:14]
Gary Ginsberg
No, I feel like. Well, I used to say I cursed too much, but now everyone's cursing.
- [44:22]
Carol Radziwill
No, like you're birthing the Carol Radswell I know.
- [44:24]
Kara Swisher
Right? Right here. Right. For Senate.
- [44:28]
Gary Ginsberg
No. I mean, I think I'm too much of a hothead, but I don't know. You know, I want my policy.
- [44:34]
Carol Radziwill
She's not saying no.
- [44:34]
Kara Swisher
Hello.
- [44:35]
Carol Radziwill
Just not saying no.
- [44:37]
Kara Swisher
Not saying no. That's sort of what Kennedy did. John Kennedy. So, Gary, you were the Executive Vice President of Global Marketing, Corporate affairs at News Corp, where I met you. You were working for Uncle Satan, as I like to call Rupert.
- [44:51]
Gary Ginsberg
You know, I did.
- [44:51]
Kara Swisher
That was my favorite.
- [44:52]
Carol Radziwill
Of course.
- [44:53]
Kara Swisher
That was my favorite thing. It was because he was avuncular and satanic at the same time. He was friendly.
- [44:58]
Carol Radziwill
It's a rare combination.
- [44:59]
Kara Swisher
And evil. I felt like it was a compliment.
- [45:01]
Gary Ginsberg
Twice.
- [45:01]
Carol Radziwill
Good.
- [45:02]
Kara Swisher
I understand the appeal.
- [45:03]
Carol Radziwill
He took it as a compliment too.
- [45:04]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. So you were described as the Murdoch whisperer. So I have to ask. President Trump is suing Murdoch for $10 billion over a wall Street Journal report about a birthday Trump allegedly gave to Jeff Epstein. Looks like, in fact, he did. What do you think is going through his head right now? Obviously he just got this legal fight. He has to now report on his health.
- [45:21]
Carol Radziwill
I don't think he is going to capitulate one iota. I think he's gonna fight this thing till the end. Cuz I think they've got this story hard. They've authenticated. I assume they've authenticated the doodle. And the truth is he doesn't really need anything from Trump anymore. I mean, he got everything he needed in the first term. He was able to sell Fox to Disney and have no regulatory reviews, which is so crazy.
- [45:47]
Kara Swisher
Have you met?
- [45:49]
Gary Ginsberg
No.
- [45:50]
Kara Swisher
Well, there you go.
- [45:51]
Carol Radziwill
So he doesn't like. What does he need now? I mean, maybe if he sells because of the trust issue, he might, but that's still years away. So I think he's just. He's in a great position to fight this thing out. He's a man who likes to fight. He loves, you know, loves to. To take on where he's on the right and he's got no reason to capitulate.
- [46:10]
Kara Swisher
Can you explain for people to understand? I do understand it. Where he has the journal, which is the cudgel, which he does. Real news. And he loves it.
- [46:16]
Gary Ginsberg
And he loves.
- [46:17]
Kara Swisher
Real loves it. And you gotta admit, he's been a great owner.
- [46:19]
Carol Radziwill
He's Been a pretty good one. Everyone said it's the end of the Journal.
- [46:23]
Kara Swisher
No. Cause the family was not great. I was like kind of excited for an actual professional to come in. He's been a great owner of the Journal. That's used as a cudgel. He keeps it, he protects it, keeps it pure. Absolutely. Over at Fox, it's the sort of lick Trump up and down group groups most of the time, essentially.
- [46:39]
Carol Radziwill
Well, it's really prime time New York Post.
- [46:40]
Kara Swisher
You never know what they're gonna do, right?
- [46:42]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah, pretty much.
- [46:42]
Kara Swisher
And they're opening the LA version. Is that how he's gonna keep it? Cause you know, more than anyone, Murdoch is responsible for Trump in bringing him up.
- [46:51]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah. And I think my guess is based on some fact is that he learned to regret it at certain point.
- [46:58]
Kara Swisher
Well, he certainly did in the emails for sure.
- [46:59]
Carol Radziwill
Certainly in 2020. I think he was ready for a change. I mean, I think I know that actually. Actually. But you know, he's a man who loved. He never had a relationship with a president until Trump. You know, he never had a relationship with Reagan. The Bushes didn't need him because they had ailes. So he finally has a president that he has an inordinate amount of control over. And he used it, used it really effectively, but now he doesn't need it. And so I think it's going to be really interesting.
- [47:25]
Kara Swisher
Does Trump need him or the movement?
- [47:27]
Carol Radziwill
Much, much more than Rupert needs him?
- [47:29]
Gary Ginsberg
Because they need Fox News, doesn't he?
- [47:31]
Carol Radziwill
Yeah. I mean the problem, the problem is Rupert, nobody can really control the primetime anchors. The control from corporate is always daytime and the primetime's where all the influence is really wielded.
- [47:42]
Kara Swisher
Rupert may not need him, but Fox News needs him. What happens in the wake of the MAGA after that? After he leaves, presumably.
- [47:52]
Carol Radziwill
MAGA after Trump leaves for Fox. Well, if you're in opposition, it's always been really good. What's interesting is that now that they're in power, they're doing great. But when I was in this game, if you were in opposition, it was really good. And you know, MSNBC had a, you know, great run from 16 to 20. I suspect now that their audience is pretty durable.
- [48:13]
Kara Swisher
Durable over time.
- [48:14]
Gary Ginsberg
Yeah.
- [48:14]
Carol Radziwill
And they're not going to. I think, you know, with him gone, I think Vance or whoever it is will be able to keep that thing.
- [48:20]
Kara Swisher
That thing is so charming.
- [48:22]
Carol Radziwill
Money?
- [48:22]
Kara Swisher
No, he's charmless. He's charmless. All right, last question. In the doc, Tina Brown says the character is destiny and quote, JFK Jr. Should have been at the helm of that plane. He was told it was not a good time to fly any base and said, I'm gonna do it anyway. I don't know if that notes this in the piece. I'm quoting from that thing, and I'm.
- [48:38]
Carol Radziwill
Not sure that's true.
- [48:40]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [48:40]
Carol Radziwill
And I challenge that because I haven't seen anything where he was specifically told, you should not fly this plane.
- [48:48]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [48:48]
Carol Radziwill
I mean, I'm not making excuses for him, but I'm not sure that that's right.
- [48:51]
Kara Swisher
In a lot of ways, he embodied a lot of America's best traits. Entrepreneurship, risk taking, confidence, but also recklessness in that regard. So what is his legacy for you personally, as a friend and as some we can't stop thinking about, I think that is when I saw all those pictures, I was sort of brought back. Carol, you go first and Gary go towards me.
- [49:07]
Gary Ginsberg
It's like he was my late husband's best friend, closest cousin and confidant. And obviously Carolyn Bessette was then one of my closest friend and also confidant. So I'm just sort of micro, you know, I just will. I see them and him as that. My cousin, cousin in law, my best friend. And I just. When I. I don't see the macro, I just see the micro and who he was as a person, as a friend, as a husband, as a cousin. And, you know, on every level, he was just fantastic. He was always, always fun to be around. John, he was just a wonderful human being. And the world lost a lot when that plane went down.
- [49:59]
Carol Radziwill
Gary, I can't say it any better than that. I mean, that's exactly how I feel. I mean, put aside the myth and the, you know, the fame and all that, he was just a great friend. You know, he was a loyal friend. He rooted for his friends. He was fun as hell, incredibly playful. I mean, the thousands of hours of games and, you know, sports and prank jokes. He wore his fame with incredible elegance. On the public stage, he was elegant. In private, he was elegant. And I think the world could really use someone like John today.
- [50:31]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, let's end on that. Thank you so much.
- [50:34]
Gary Ginsberg
Thank you, thank you.
- [50:36]
Kara Swisher
On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor, Roselle, Kateri Yocum, Megan Burney, Allison Rogers and Kaitlyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Claire Hyman, Eric Litke. Aaliyah Jackson engineered this episode and our theme music is by tracking. If you're already following the show, you already have the measles antibodies. If not, watch out for brain worms and roadkill. It smells like death. Go over you listen to podcasts, search for on with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.