Podcast Summary

On with Kara Swisher

Episode: Why Trump’s Cartoonish Fascism is So Effective with Jason Stanley
Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest: Jason Stanley, Professor of Philosophy, expert on fascism, author of How Fascism Works and Erasing History

Episode Overview

In this gripping and urgent episode, Kara Swisher sits down with acclaimed philosopher and fascism scholar Jason Stanley. Fresh from his controversial move—along with colleagues Marcy Shore and Tim Snyder—from Yale to Canada, Stanley offers deep insights into the nature of modern fascism, focusing on Donald Trump’s tactics, the erosion of democratic norms, the manipulation of culture and education, and the broader global context. The discussion weaves together historical analysis, personal reflection, and stark warnings about the present trajectory of the United States.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. What Makes Trump’s Fascism “Cartoonish” Yet Effective?

• (03:26) Kara opens by pressing Stanley on his outspoken characterization of Trump as a fascist and asks how Trump compares to other fascist leaders.
• Stanley’s Definition: Fascism rests on the idea of a mythic, pure national past destroyed by foreigners—a “great replacement” theory. Central elements: glorification of great men, purity, racism, rigid gender roles, and patriarchy.
  • “So great replacement theory is central here. And the mythic past is central.” —Jason Stanley (03:40)
• Comparative Analysis:
  • Mussolini vs. Hitler—Hitler’s fascism was genocidal and focused on scapegoating Jews as agents of feminism and liberalism.
  • Netanyahu’s recent actions are described as historically fascist.
  • Trump uses immigration as a focal point, with ICE compared to early Nazi enforcement agencies.
• On the “Stage” of Fascism:
  • “I think that we're looking at a kind of 1934 kind of moment.” —Stanley (07:04)
• Cartoonishness as a Feature:
  • Trump’s methods are “paint by numbers” fascism, highly performative and unsophisticated, yet strangely effective in the American context.
  • “We have a kind of cartoonish performance of a fascist dictator out of some kind of very Chaplain-esque... it feels very Chaplain-esque.” —Stanley (15:34)

2. Law and Order, Racism, and Emergency Tactics

• (07:33–09:47) Kara cites Trump's use of military and federal force in Washington, D.C., and asks about his divisive law-and-order rhetoric.
• Stanley links this to historic American racism, invoking the imagery of “corrupt,” “lawless” black-majority cities and how fascists use these myths of criminality and degeneration to justify authoritarian measures.
  • “This idea is a chapter I talk about in my book How Fascism Works, called Sodom and Gomorrah... the rural urban divide that Trump leans into.” (08:09)

3. Fascist Manipulation of Truth and Narrative

• (09:47–11:46) Kara asks about Trump's shifting blame between foreign leaders and what this achieves.
• Stanley draws parallels to Orwell’s “1984,” but notes Trump's approach feels more chaotic than calculated.
  • “There is that 1984-esque, kind of ‘now we are at—We've always been at war with Oceana’ thing going on. Orwell sets it up as if it's deliberate, whereas with Trump, one has more of a feeling that it's chaotic.” —Stanley (10:15)
• He acknowledges some Trump supporters justify these actions as efforts to end wars, but overall sees internal confusion.

4. Culture War: Controlling Museums, Universities, and the Arts

• (11:46–14:22) Trump attempts to micromanage museums and cultural institutions, demanding “patriotic” narratives.
• Stanley: This is classic fascist cultural takeover—linking the nation's greatness to a curated historical narrative, suppressing dissent, and attacking universities.
  • “Museums, culture and education are central here. And so you have to take over the education system, you have to take over the museums. Cause the museums are part of the education system...” —Stanley (13:13)
• He details how education, media, and the arts become targets as they threaten the mythic “exceptional” narrative.

5. Attacks on Facts and Institutions

• (15:11–17:52) Trump’s firing of officials like the Bureau of Labor Statistics chief, (accusing them of rigging data).
• Stanley: Facts become irrelevant, and only “what makes the leader look good” matters—erasing any historical or statistical fact that challenges the leader’s image.
  • “Facts are irrelevant. All that's relevant is what makes the leader look good.” —Stanley (15:34)
• The effect? A “dual state” system, with different sets of justice for favored groups vs. minorities, hailing from America’s history of racial injustice.

6. Suppression and Capitulation in Higher Education

• (18:52–22:46) Stanley discusses the pressure on universities (e.g., Harvard, Columbia) to capitulate to authoritarian demands, likening compliance to historical moral failures.
• Predicts forced hiring of conservative faculty, increased corruption, and loss of academic freedom, especially in sensitive subjects like settler colonialism.
  • “So there's some amount of sort of self capitulation of saying, okay, you know, we wanted to get rid of this stuff anyway. But I think that what it's looking like is they're going to do DEI for, for Trump supporters, DEI for conservatives.” —Stanley (19:28)
• Suggests radical action—universities leaving the U.S. for academic freedom, as Central European University did when forced out of Hungary.

7. Education as a Fascist Target

• (27:14–29:08) Kara pivots to the role of the education system.
• Stanley: “Wars are won by teachers,” quoting Putin. Progressive education, social movements and citizen agency are threats to autocrats; fascists prefer history taught as the exploits of great men. American public schools, especially in the South, have always been battlegrounds for racial equality and thus perennial fascist targets.

8. The “Wokeness” Panic and Its Weaponization

• (29:08–33:17) Citing the 2015 Atlantic piece “The Coddling of the American Mind,” Stanley rebuts the idea that left-wing excesses dominate campuses.
  • Notes “anti-woke” panic is the real ascendant force, stoked by the mainstream media.
  • Institutions remain dominated by donors and conservative boards, while BLM protests and legitimate diversity efforts are marginalized or ridiculed.
  • “But in general, my entire 29 years as a professor has been occupying spaces dominated by donors, by boards, by administrators who are not responsive to issues of equality and diversity.” —Stanley (32:48)

9. On Leaving the US: Risk, Privilege & Responsibility

• (34:39–36:50) Swisher challenges Stanley about whether leaving the country is a betrayal of those who cannot.
• Stanley: His move was an “expressive act”—part alarm, part search for safety, especially for his multiracial children. He expresses no regret and feels his mission is now global.
  • “It sort of seemed very abstract to me. So much of my work has been about sending an alarm. So this was intended to send an alarm to the world, saying, look, things are bad in the United States now.” (36:50)
• He further reveals plans to create a safe haven in Canada for journalists and civil society activists resisting global authoritarianism.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Tactics
  • “We have a kind of cartoonish performance of a fascist dictator... not even as sophisticated as Putin.” —Jason Stanley (17:26)
• On American Vulnerability
  • “It appears that the United States is exceptionally vulnerable to fascism. We have the largest prison system in the world, and we're already, to a large extent, a racist police state.” —Stanley (17:54)
• On Rewriting History
  • “The nation has to be great. Anything the nation did that wasn't great has to be erased.” —Stanley (15:34)
• On Universities’ Fate
  • “Harvard should move to Canada. Like Central European University moved.” —Stanley (21:33)
• On the Efficacy of Cartoonish Fascism
  • “Arendt... says, you know, totalitarianism bumps up against reality and founders on those shoals, but I think that's more a hope than anything else.” (17:10)
• On Exile
  • “I saw it more as an expressive act, as an act of sending an alarm.” —Stanley (36:50)
• On the Need for Global Resistance
  • “What I'm hoping in Canada is we can have that kind of coordination... a place where journalists and civil society leaders from all over the world can come and pool their resources.” —Stanley (40:00)

Key Timestamps

• 03:26–07:04: What fascism means, Trump’s place in that history, comparison to past fascists
• 07:33–09:47: Racist law and order, using emergencies to consolidate power
• 11:46–14:22: Cultural control (museums, arts, schools) as a fascist tactic
• 15:11–17:52: Attacks on facts, credibility, and the creation of “dual justice”
• 18:52–22:46: Universities’ capitulation, DEI politics, the false anti-woke panic
• 27:14–29:08: Why fascists attack public education
• 29:08–33:17: The media's role in mainstreaming “woke panic”
• 34:39–40:00: Stanley’s decision to leave, exile as alarm, plans in Canada
• 42:11–44:51: Clay Risen’s question—how news organizations should cover fascism
• 44:56–47:09: Deb Roy’s question—how to restore “common knowledge” in a fractured infosphere
• 47:25–49:56: Civil rights movement as blueprint; the need for charismatic, empathetic leadership
• 50:30–51:55: Predictions: Will Trumpism die with him? Will democracy survive?
• 51:55–53:03: Concluding thoughts on global struggle, Swisher joking about alien invasions as a unifying threat

Expert Questions & Solutions Section

Clay Risen (NYT): How should news media cover a fascist moment?

• Stanley’s Response (42:51):
  • No more normalizing; stop hiring writers who humanize or “normalize” authoritarian policies.
  • Media should stop providing justifications for dangerous changes and avoid stoking moral panics (e.g., over “wokeness”).

Deb Roy (MIT): How do we rebuild common knowledge in a fragmented, tech-driven sphere?

• Stanley’s Response (45:34):
  • Democracy requires trust and shared facts, but that’s broken.
  • Part of restoration involves recognizing and combating warlike footing in politics, and being vigilant about anti-democratic forces.
  • The solution must involve structural changes but isn’t easy in an age of “information flood,” which may be more damaging than scarcity.

Final Thoughts & Predictions

• Will Trumpism outlive its leader?
  • Stanley: Predicts a bleak outcome—a “far right machine” will run the U.S., democracy becoming a relic, with periods of anarchy but also persistent dysfunction. (51:28)
  • Swisher: Remains more optimistic, suggesting the movement won't survive Trump’s charisma. (51:23)
• The Need for Global Action: Stanley emphasizes organizing global resistance, sharing resources, and learning from historical and international examples.

Tone & Flow

The conversation is candid, urgent, and unflinching—laced with dark humor (e.g., Swisher's “alien invasion” as a solution) and punctuated by Stanley’s deep expertise and analytical clarity. Both host and guest remain accessible while tackling troubling complexities, frequently referencing history as both warning and guide.

For listeners or readers concerned about the fate of democracy in America—and the insidious rise of modern authoritarianism—this episode offers a sobering, essential analysis delivered with both gravitas and conviction.