Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Billie Jean King

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Billie Jean King"

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Wiser Than Me, hosted by Julia Louis-Dreyfus, listeners are treated to an intimate and candid conversation with the legendary tennis champion and pioneering advocate, Billie Jean King. Released on November 28, 2024, the episode delves deep into King’s illustrious career, her relentless fight for gender equality, and her personal journey towards self-acceptance and well-being.

Early Life and Athletic Beginnings

The conversation kicks off with Julia Louis-Dreyfus probing into Billie Jean King’s early interactions with sports. King recounts her childhood in New York, highlighting her struggles and eventual passion for athletics.

“I didn't excel at any of these things at a girls' school, you know, the sports girls were popular. And I think that's one of the great things about an all-girls school. Women are at the very top of the sports world.” ([03:49])

King shares a memorable yet humbling experience from her youth: attempting a gymnastics routine that went awry, leading to the lowest score ever on the balance beam.

“In real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam. It was like less than one out of ten, by the way.” ([05:25])

Leadership and Advocacy

As the conversation progresses, King delves into her transition from athlete to leader. She emphasizes the importance of creating opportunities for others, particularly women and girls of color, through her establishment of the Women's Sports Foundation.

“For instance, it can't be about me. You have to be we, or you can't be I. You have to be us. It's always about what can I do to help people have a better life.” ([27:35])

King discusses the challenges and triumphs of leading the Women’s Tennis Association and her efforts to professionalize women’s tennis, ensuring equal pay and better representation.

“Everything starts with team. Really.” ([63:34])

Pivotal Moments: The Battle of the Sexes

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to King’s historic 1973 match against Bobby Riggs, famously known as the "Battle of the Sexes." King reflects on the immense pressure and preparation that went into the match, underscoring its societal impact.

“I knew six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself making every shot.” ([53:43])

King describes her meticulous preparation routine, including meeting security and familiarizing herself with the venue to maintain focus during the high-stakes match.

“I totally prepare. I really am big on preparation. I think processes just how you win.” ([55:08])

The victory against Riggs not only cemented her legacy in sports but also served as a catalyst for the feminist movement and increased self-confidence among women.

“Income is more than ever. Winning a match, like against Bobby Riggs.” ([56:08])

Facing Gender Bias and Ageism

King addresses the persistent gender biases and ageism prevalent in both sports and corporate environments. She highlights the disparities in opportunities, pay, and recognition between men and women.

“The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is. The world looks at us differently.” ([44:35])

Discussing boardroom dynamics, King points out how women's ideas are often overshadowed or credited to their male counterparts.

“A woman will have an idea, she comes up with it, but until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea.” ([47:07])

Personal Well-being and Aging

Shifting focus to personal life, King candidly discusses her struggles with an eating disorder and the importance of mental health. She shares her journey toward self-care and the role of therapy in her life.

“Every morning I wake up, I tell myself, I have an eating disorder.” ([34:28])

King emphasizes the significance of maintaining physical health through regular exercise, weightlifting, and staying active.

“I work out literally every day, and I love it.” ([12:55])

Reflecting on aging, King expresses a positive outlook despite the physical challenges, highlighting emotional growth and enhanced perspective gained over the years.

“Emotionally, I am so happy compared to my young days. I cannot tell you really.” ([61:58])

Inclusion and Transgender Athletes

King voices her strong stance on inclusion, advocating for the participation of transgender athletes in sports. She recounts her experience supporting Renee Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA, and emphasizes the need for ongoing dialogue and acceptance.

“I don't want anyone to be excluded. We gotta figure this out.” ([32:12])

King acknowledges the complexities of this issue but remains steadfast in her commitment to equality and inclusivity.

Advice for Future Generations

Towards the end of the episode, King imparts valuable advice to young athletes transitioning into the working world. She underscores the importance of building relationships, continuous learning, and being innovative.

“Relationships are everything. So meet as many people as you can. Get to know everyone.” ([57:45])

King encourages young women to remain ambitious and strive for leadership roles, emphasizing that financial independence is crucial.

“Women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious.” ([31:24])

Legacy and Continuing Influence

King concludes by reflecting on her enduring legacy and the continued relevance of her advocacy work. She remains passionate about empowering the next generation and ensuring that the opportunities she fought for persist.

“What does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow.” ([56:33])

King’s unwavering dedication to equality, inclusion, and personal resilience serves as an inspiration, making her a timeless icon in both sports and social activism.

Conclusion

This episode of Wiser Than Me offers a comprehensive look into Billie Jean King’s multifaceted life. From her early athletic endeavors and leadership roles to her battles against gender bias and personal struggles, King’s story is one of resilience, empowerment, and lasting impact. Julia Louis-Dreyfus skillfully navigates the conversation, allowing listeners to gain profound insights into what makes King not only a champion on the court but also a champion for equality and social justice off it.

Notable Quotes

1. Early Sports Struggles: “I didn't excel at any of these things at a girls' school... Women are at the very top of the sports world.” ([03:49])

2. Leadership Philosophy: “You have to be we, or you can't be I. You have to be us.” ([27:35])

3. Battle of the Sexes Preparation: “I knew six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences.” ([53:43])

4. Gender Bias in Corporate: “The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is.” ([44:35])

5. Personal Well-being: “Every morning I wake up, I tell myself, I have an eating disorder.” ([34:28])

6. Inclusivity Stance: “I don't want anyone to be excluded. We gotta figure this out.” ([32:12])

7. Advice to Youth: “Relationships are everything. So meet as many people as you can.” ([57:45])

8. Legacy and Influence: “What does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow.” ([56:33])

Final Thoughts

Billie Jean King's conversation with Julia Louis-Dreyfus is a testament to her enduring spirit and commitment to making the world a better place. Her insights offer valuable lessons on leadership, resilience, and the importance of fighting for equality. This episode is not just a reflection on King's past achievements but also a beacon guiding future generations towards a more inclusive and equitable society.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Support for on with Kara Swisher comes from Elf Beauty. Elf is making beauty accessible to every eye, lip and face, and they're changing the board game while they do it. As part of their commitment to diversify corporate boardrooms across the country, Elf developed the not so White Paper in collaboration with North Carolina Agriculture and Technical State University. One major takeaway from the paper is that when you make your corporate board and C suite roles reflect the communities they serve, it has a positive impact on a business's success. Read it for [e-mail].

[Unknown (Sequoia Capital Podcast Host)]

Support for the show comes from the new season of Crucible Moments, a podcast from Sequoia Capital. What is a Crucible Moment? It's a turning point where we face a tough decision and our response can shape the rest of our lives. These decisions happen in business too, and Sequoia Capital's podcast Crucible Moments gives you a behind the scenes look, asking founders of some of the world's most important tech companies like YouTube, DoorDash, Reddit and more to reflect on those critical junctures that defined who they are today. Tune into season two of Crucible Moments today. You can also catch up on season one at cruciblemoments.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. Support for the show comes from the new season of Crucible Moments, a podcast from Sequoia Capital. What is a Crucible Moment? It's a turning point where we face a tough decision and our response can shape the rest of our lives. These decisions happen in business too, and Sequoia Capital's podcast Crucible Moments gives you a behind the scenes look, asking founders of some of the world's most important tech companies like YouTube, DoorDash, Reddit and more to reflect on those critical junctures that defined who they are today. Tune into Season two of Crucible Moments today. You can also catch up on Season one at Crucible Moments or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

A quick note before we get to the show. We're doing a live recording of on with Kara Swisher in New York on Tuesday, December 3, presented by Elf Cosmetics. Tubi CEO Anjali Sood and I will be tackling gender disparity in the boardroom and exploring how companies with women in the C suite have better business outcomes. I'm really looking forward to it and you should consider joining us because we're going to cover a wide range of topics including streaming platforms and representation in tech and business. For tickets, visit voxmediaevents.comelf that's voxmediaevents.comelf I hope to see you there. Hi, everyone. Happy Thanksgiving. We're busy enjoying the holidays and stuffing our faces with turkeys. So today we're bringing you a special conversation from Julia Louis Dreyfus that I think you'll really enjoy. It's an episode of her hit podcast, Wiser Than Me. I interviewed her back in June and we talked about it at length, so go back and listen to it if you haven't already. Also, she is a badass. In Wiser Than Me, Julia talks with some of the most incredible older women of our lifetime. The ones that bring humor, honesty, and the kind of wisdom that only comes with age. Women like Jane Fonda, Isabel Allende, Catherine O'Hara, and in this episode, tennis legend and activist Billie Jean King. Billie Jean speaks with Julia about leadership, the power of visualization, and her lifelong quest for self acceptance. It's a wonderful conversation. I can't wait for you to hear it. To enjoy more of Julia's inspiring stories, be sure to check out Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcast, if only to spend time with one of the coolest ladies I know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young. I was born in New York, and early on I learned to ride a tricycle and I was good at that trike. I rode it in the hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle? It's like, you know, just imagine it's being on a racetrack. Up and down and up and down. Although as I say this, I am now remembering the Shining. And of course not so fun in that movie, but in reality is in fact a lot of fun. But I lived in the city city. And so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't know, 8. And everybody was riding bikes by then, you know, by eight. But I kind of missed that window and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training wheels. I was always unsure of myself on a bike, and I still am, really. I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me. And bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school. And so I was just kind of fucked. And I just didn't play sports. I went to an all girls school and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics. I did not excel at any of these things at a girls school, you know, the sports girls were popular. And I think that's one of the great things about an all girls school. Women are the very top of the sports world. You cheer for girls. And all my best friends were athletic, so I wanted in on that. So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event. I think this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. It was a big meet. Is that what it would be, a gymnastics meet? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced. So I got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending I'm Olga Corbett or whatever. And there's a crowd there. And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely. Just, I mean, just telling you this right now, it's making my palms sweat. I could remember nothing. So I just started to make things up. You know, in the movie version of this, I improvise this great routine and, you know, everybody applauds. But in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam. It was like less than one out of ten, by the way. That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute, here's another one. Okay, so we had two gym teachers, Mrs. Nevitt, who everybody loved, and Mrs. Moody, who was English. And this is probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE and it was tennis day. And all of a sudden I hear Mrs. Moody, the English one, she goes, cover your eyes, girls, cover your eyes. And a bunch of boys were streaking. Anybody remember streaking? Running around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now, of course. But anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were. This was an all girls school, so I suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streakers. So, like, anyway, four boys go running by. And I did just as Mrs. Moody instructed. I covered my eyes, but I remember I was laughing so hard that, you know, I mean, it's not a great come from behind victory. It's not a championship game. This is the kind of sports memory that I have. And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now. I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life. And our family life is totally sporty. My kids are great athletes. My husband is a sports nut. He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite, foiling or snowboarding or something. And I work out literally every day, and I love it. And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything, and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants and the Knicks and I paid no attention at all, except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great. That was always very exciting. But then my kids started playing high level sports and I started to see what it meant to them and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the game. And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan and I fell in love with college basketball and abracadabra. I'm a sports fan. You know, in our current time, when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated and where so many things seem like lose, lose proposition, here are sports which, despite the dubious character of some of the particip and the corruption of the leagues and you know, sports always come down to a definable contest. There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B movie cult film, the Driver, Bruce Stern, who's always so good, I love Bruce Stern. He plays this rough cop and at one point he says, you know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page. You know why? Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers, how it happened. Final score. I love that. The clarity of that. God, is that appealing. No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, elation. What's not to love? That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King. Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Okay, let me set the stage here. In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any Ivy League college. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon. They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands. Of course, there were some things they could do. They could get fired for being pregnant. They could be denied a credit card without a male co signer, and they could play any sport they wanted, just none professionally except golf. And that's in 1966, not 1866. Then along came Billie Jean King. 39 Grand Slams, 20 Wimbledon titles. A lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay. Not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. She founded and led the women's Tennis associ and is the first female athlete ever to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Not to mention, over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the battle of the sexes. I mean, seriously, folks, let that sink in. Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets, might I add. She's a sports icon, she's an LGBTQ icon, a feminist icon, and let's face it, she's just basically iconic. Iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King has changed the world. She is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me. The one and only Billie Jean King. Hi.

[Billie Jean King]

Hi. After that, I'm going to stop.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Don't stop. You gotta keep going. You gotta keep going.

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, no, I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now that you're so old, you know, what are you gonna do? And I said, I'm not done yet. You know, you haven't even started yet. No, I still have a lot of energy, you know, so I'm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, so speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say your real age?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, yeah, I love it. I never. I'm 80. I just turned 80 last November. November 22nd.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But how old do you feel?

[Billie Jean King]

I don't know what 80's supposed to feel like. I always ask myself, like, when I was 60, when I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am. The number is there, but it's really, how is my health, I think.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, yeah, your health.

[Billie Jean King]

Your health and how you feel and how do you feel? How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally? You know, I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week. Psychotherapy, psychotherapy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What about physical therapy?

[Billie Jean King]

I don't need physical therapy. Well, Ilana, my wife, got me out during COVID to hit tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder everything, and I said, okay, let's try, because I just love it so much. I mean, I love to hit the ball. So we do two or three times a week now. She hits, you know, Lana was number one in the world in doubles, and she still plays a lot. So she's. She's younger, she's in her late 60s, so she hits the ball right. To me, it's just amazing. I meet people who are playing, and we have a 100 and under event category for people that are 100 and under, and it is hilarious. You know what shot they use all the time is a drop shot because you can't move. And it's hilarious.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Who's the oldest?

[Billie Jean King]

I don't know who the oldest one is. I don't know. I've got to find out. No, I don't know.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You got to find out.

[Billie Jean King]

I will find out.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Somebody's got to be in their 90s, right?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no. They're just, like, probably 98, 99 in there. Yeah, for sure.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Jean? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body? How does that work?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now, but my brain's slower, too. I think I've always been in tune with my body. My brother, Just so everybody knows. A lot of people do know this. A lot of people do not. I have a younger brother. He's five years, almost five years younger. Four years, 11 months. Randy Moffatt. Moffatt's our birth name, and he played professional baseball for 12 years, most of those with the San Francisco Giants. But the third word we learned was ball. You know, mommy ball, daddy ball. We just. We are infatuated. They can roll it on the ground. They can throw it in the air. We didn't care. And then if you. As you get older, though, you start to realize it's science and art together and you want to be playing in front of people. You're a performer. It's so much fun. It's very expressive. It's like, I love dance, I love ballet. I love all that. I like to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

My son Charlie was a D1 athlete. He played basketball. He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade. He had real trouble sitting still. By the way, his first word was also ball.

[Billie Jean King]

Uh. Oh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And right. And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive, and she let him bounce a ball during class.

[Billie Jean King]

Smart.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Smart, right?

[Billie Jean King]

Very.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So he was able to concentrate as a result. Tracy. Shout out to Tracy. That was inspired.

[Billie Jean King]

That was.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Let him do that. Yeah. Brilliant.

[Billie Jean King]

That's very interesting, because in school, I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

A girl demoted with grades.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. I got unsatisfactory instead of satisfactory in fourth grade because Ms. Palachek said that I had done too well in sports and, you know, kind of like braggy O show, I guess, to her. I Didn't I just did it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now, that would never. To a boy. He would be honored and yeah, he.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Would be lauded for it.

[Billie Jean King]

Correct. That's the difference growing up. Always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory?

[Billie Jean King]

They just let it go. They said, just ignore it, don't worry, just keep going. My mother didn't want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all times. And I said, mommy, what does that mean? She said, oh, you know. And I said, no, Mommy, I don't know what that means. And so I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was happier. Happier. But my dad understood totally. He was. Basketball's our first love. So he was a basketball player. And he got asked back in the 40s to join the NBA and he didn't because there wasn't any money in it at the time. And he's very risk adverse that generation with the depression, World War II. But no, he came home and became a firefighter and which. I love that he was a firefighter. Oh, God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I love that too.

[Billie Jean King]

I loved it. But it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So he was a proper hero, right?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, to me he was, because he believed in me as much as my brother as well.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

I mean, he told me to go for. And everybody else around me is saying, huh, they didn't really care. But I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sport.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know you did.

[Billie Jean King]

And that's really what, you know, it's. I wanted us to be a pro sport. We were an amateur sport. It was so terrible. I used to just go crazy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Hey, listen, let me ask you something, just because I'm interested about this, because you're obviously so fit and here you are, 80 years old. You are.

[Billie Jean King]

You're right, I am fit for an 80 year old. But I don't, you know, I'm.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Come on, give me a break.

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, I'm also lifting again. I'm also doing a lot of weight work.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This is my. Okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime? Besides playing tennis two to three times a week with Ilana, what else are you doing? Lifting weights?

[Billie Jean King]

I've started lifting weights again. I made a promise this year, instead of doing it sporadically, I'D be pretty consistent, which I have been. But we're still working full time. It's not. And work itself and traveling like we do, I think also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems. And I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong. It's just helped me be strong in every way. There's something. Well, it must be like you when you're acting. I always wonder what actors go through.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

In terms of what.

[Billie Jean King]

Like, the pressure that's on you. Like they say, let's go, you know, and you have to start the scene. And of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with Seinfeld and others that you didn't. Weren't live, because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, sometimes we did. But having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever you want to call it, that are racing through. It's the same racing through your body when you're working.

[Billie Jean King]

Yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, even now, talking to you, I can feel that, you know, I want to have a good conversation with you. I can feel that driver, you know, that's in place, and it can paralyze you, but it can also be great fuel, and I usually use it for fuel.

[Billie Jean King]

To tell you the truth, I'm a fuel person. I like pressure. I have a saying. Pressure's a privilege.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know. I love that saying. It is a privilege.

[Billie Jean King]

It is a privilege to have our opportunities for you to do what you have done and continue to do. And what I do and what I did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

You know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, come on. Who's given up on you?

[Billie Jean King]

No, there's ageism involved. There really is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Talk about that. Talk about that.

[Billie Jean King]

All right. Let's take commercials on television. Let's just take commercials. And not just television. Obviously, it's everything now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

I'd like people to, when they watch commercials, to really pay attention to who's in them. Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in. It's usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you'd see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30. They don't give us the same opportunities.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman, and they'll say, she's such a great role model? For women. Now go to a male. If a male's a role model, they don't say, oh, he's a great role model. For men, they don't say, he's a great role model.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Role model.

[Billie Jean King]

I mean, hello. It's like, everyone can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes. Like, for me, Althea Gibson was my first Shiro, and she was the first to win. And I didn't think of her that way. I thought of her as the number one player. And if you can see it, you can be it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

So I saw her live when I was 13, and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh, my gosh. I'm gonna have to be that. Oh, I'm gonna have to practice so hard. Oh, my God.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But you knew you were gonna do it.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. Well, I certainly hope to. Of course, that was my goal since the time I was 11, to be number one in the world. There was no question. But still, to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that she was number one. And if you can see it, you can be it. You know how good you have to be and what made her great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That's right. I'm just so struck by the realization that you had when you were 12 that mean you saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis, and you decided to work on changing that.

[Billie Jean King]

No, it wasn't tennis. It was life. It was like watching Little Rock and like the Little Rock Nine, or watching that black kids couldn't go to school with the white kids. And I asked my dad, why is that? That's ridiculous. He says, well, it's the south, and because in Southern California, that never happened to me. I mean, it didn't matter. And that really bothered me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, of course. And you also noticed that it was, like, only white people playing tennis. Right. When you went to that country?

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, absolutely. Everybody wore white clothes, everybody played with white balls, and everybody played was white. I said, that's not right. This belongs to everyone. It's such a great sport. Although I didn't have the know how at 12 years old that there were black people playing, But I had never seen them, but they were. They formed their own association, the ATA, in 1916. So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments. And just like, if you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge. It's one of the majors.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

And while black people weren't allowed to play until 1950, and that's when Althea was a player of the 50s, and that's when she won everything and she won the U.S. nationals. Now that would be the U.S. open, and she was the first to win. Without her, there wouldn't have been an Arthur Ashe or Zena Garrison or Serena or Venus or all these great players. And so I think that was a good example.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's time for a quick break, but don't worry, there's more with Billie Jean King in just a bit.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But what I'm so struck by is that you were so sensitive to sort of the disenfranchised at a very young age. And I'm wondering where you think, how did that happen? Where did that sort of intuition that you had, where did that come from? Was that the culture in your family or what?

[Billie Jean King]

I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge. Just watching how they related. Not to say it was perfect or anything, God knows that, but they get into it. But not. They're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers, followers choose leaders. And a lot of times in sports you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain. And I was on a bicycle committee and I was only supposed to be the secretary, but they ended up always saying, you lead, you do this. I go, no, no, no, you do, you do.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Bicycle committee.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, we had a team in elementary school, which I have no idea what it means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area. We had to take care of them. We had to put them in these racks. You know, you gotta just do the right thing. And all that at the school. Keep them in the right place.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I love that.

[Billie Jean King]

So I was on that committee, and then, you know, but I was always. I was always pushed into leadership positions. And finally, in Tennessee, when we're older, you know, the players said, no, you're the one. You're the one. I go, no, no, no. Why not? You? Why not? You know, typical girls, you know, when they're trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What do you want?

[Billie Jean King]

So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, go, where do you want? He goes, I want to go. Here we go. Great. Someone made a decision, because we're taught always to think about somebody else. Okay? Always take care of the other. So anyway, the players pushed me. And finally, I just remember one night just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, you know what? I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to thrive on it. Because I meant to. You know, I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, what am I doing? I'm meant to do this. And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be. But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me. You have to be we or you can't be I. You have to be us, you know, or you have to include others in your. It's always about, what can I do to help the people have a better life? How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first? And that's what makes me tick, is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love. Like starting the Women's Sports Foundation. I founded it 50 years ago, and we have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked. We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the National Women's Law center over title nine. Those are the things that matter to me a lot.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, for sure. You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong? But you know what? You're only as good as the team is. Also, relationships are everything. They really are.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right. It starts from that. But, like, when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts. What would be an example of that? Billie Jean?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, the thing I love the most, probably in tennis is world team Tennis started in 1974. Ilana and I ended up running it over time, over the last part of it. We sold it to billionaires because we thought, we really need more money in this if we're going to do it right. And they wanted it, so we sold it to them. But, you know, they let it go eventually. And so I was very upset with myself and I thought, God, if I could start over. Of course, it's so easy in hindsight. You know, there wasn't the money in 74 that there is now. Now people are investing in women's sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us. They think it's a great investment. Now for the very first.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, they think it's an economic opportunity, which it is, by the way.

[Billie Jean King]

It is. We're over 100 years late. I mean, it's like it is really a lot of work and long term investment, but it's worth it because it gives women and girls a platform they didn't have. And to help these kids, I keep telling them, every one of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world. If you decide, whatever makes you happy to do things. But look how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much. And women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious. We need to have more women on boards.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, we do. We need more women on boards. We need more women in positions of leadership. We need more women, period, making decisions.

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Which. Oh, God, this reminds me, by the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the 70s.

[Billie Jean King]

Correct.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Can you tell us that story about how you convince the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board? Can you tell us that story? So good.

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. Ilana, my wife, she's the only person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman. I keep. It is amazing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, that's, by the way, an incredible fact. But tell, I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play? Tell that part?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant. And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, okay. I said, do you think she should be able to play As a woman. And they said yes. I called Renee, which for me is hard to call if you know me well. I'm very actually shy, and I have a hard time calling people, so.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. I have a. I do have a problem believing what you just said.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, you can ask Alana. She'll tell I sucked it up. And also, it's not about me here. It's about others. I'm good when it's about the team.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, yeah, I hear that.

[Billie Jean King]

And I called her, and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you? And she said, great. So we talked for four hours. I listened to her, and I went back to the women. I said, you guys, we really should let her play. According. I've gone to the doc, I've done some homework. And they said, no. And I said, okay, I hear you. And I had this thing with the women that always used to work. I finally figured it out, which is I said, how about if we try to let her play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really tight, short. So it's like a sample. Yeah. You know, and, like, it won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that. Okay. So she comes on the tour, and within three or four days, they come on. She is so nice. She is so great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

Because they were worried about the locker room. You know, there's a lot of things go through your mind that we. That we're so ignorant. We don't understand. Oh, they loved her. They were fine. They were fine after that. That was fine. Now it's very different, though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes, and should they be allowed to play in elite competition? Some people are very emphatic about it, that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion, is my first want. So I don't want anyone to be excluded. So we gotta figure this out. So.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, we gotta figure it out.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. Cause I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So you've spent so much of your life making the world, as you continue to do today, a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking care of yourself to a certain extent?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, for sure. When I was younger. But I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal, like, eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself. That have to. It's Part of my job.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I see.

[Billie Jean King]

I was very good then. But then, you know, I have an eating disorder, and I'm a binge eater. Every morning I wake up, I tell myself, I have an eating disorder. I still go to therapy. I still think about it. It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the Ozempics of the world, and. And it's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you want to?

[Billie Jean King]

I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy. I would like to lose it slowly. But the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't thought about, is that she said, has it quieted your mind? Because I've taken a few injections now. I went, whoa, that's interesting, because with an eating disorder, I have, like two voices in my head sometimes that argue.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what do they say?

[Billie Jean King]

It's two sides. Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream. One side will say, yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what. And the other side says, no, don't do that. It's not healthy. You don't need it. You're not going to miss it. The other side goes, screw you. I'm having this ice cream. So I have this discussion that goes on in my head, and sometimes it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates. And that's why I thought it was very interesting, because this is. We talk about this in eating disorders. And it was such a great question. Because if it does do that, quiet the voices. Quiet the voice. If that's a part of it now, I'm on it. Because that would be really great. Because that gets exhausting and tiring and I don't want to fight over these things, you know, it's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day? It's not every day. It's just different moments. And then I say, am I under more stress? Is that why this is happening? No, that doesn't follow at all. No, I've tried that. So the point is, I still get it. It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention. That's the main thing.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Take.

[Billie Jean King]

Really? I'd say when I was around 50 and I was going through all my sexuality stuff like, oh, my God, it was a mess. And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So what happened at 50?

[Billie Jean King]

I went to Renfrew in Philadelphia back in 95ish. And I went to therapy, and I lived there for six weeks. And when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world. Really. And I would go to therapy three times a week. I would go to. There's also couples you have to go to, which Ilana about fainted. She's what? She goes, what?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Wait a minute. Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic. Is it?

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. You go and live there.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay. Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

And every Friday, you have family. Oh, boy, it's rough. And then you have. Every hour on the hour, you have a different. Like, movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything. Therapy, whatever.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Did your parents come?

[Billie Jean King]

They finally came after. I just kept pleading with them to come. They came once.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And how did that go?

[Billie Jean King]

It went all right. It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me, and he's so cute. He goes, billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him, and I go, dad, I'm exactly like these girls here.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What?

[Billie Jean King]

He started laughing. I started laughing. Cause we always had a sense, you know, we could always laugh at anything. We started howling. And I go, wait. And there's this old. There. No, he. Because he thinks I'm fine. He thinks I'm great. And I go, dad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh.

[Billie Jean King]

I go, dad, I'm just like them. I'm. I'm struggling. And he goes, okay, honey, I hear you. Or sis. You'd call me when things were good with sis, when it was Billie Jane, if I came through the door, I knew I was in big trouble.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And what about your mom? What was that like to have her?

[Billie Jean King]

There was a harder time than my dad with my being gay or trying to figure out who I am. Bisexual in the beginning, I don't know. But no. And I noticed you call your mother Mommy. I call my mother Mommy, too. And I love calling my mother Mommy.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know, it's.

[Billie Jean King]

She also loved hearing it and receiving it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. It's cozy, isn't it?

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, it's like a big hug. It's just adorable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's like a big hug. That's exactly right. And my boys call me Mommy. And I love it.

[Billie Jean King]

I love Mommy. I call my mom and Mommy up to the end of her life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. And you call your daddy Daddy, right?

[Billie Jean King]

I call him Daddy. I called them dad.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

Obviously. I'm 80. They're not alive anymore, unfortunately. I wish they were. They were. I got ran. My brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them, and they never really asked us if we won you know, so many parents go, did you win? Did you win? Did you win?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know.

[Billie Jean King]

They go, how'd your day go? Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed. I said, I lost my match. I lost my match. I was so bad. My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, of course I tried my best. He goes, that's good enough.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you're lucky. Yeah, I am very lucky. I have to say. Our son that I mentioned to you, he was a basketball player when he was young, and if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars, which you often were.

[Billie Jean King]

I love it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

That is so funny, because he would be screaming and writhing in the backseat if they lost.

[Billie Jean King]

Oh, I should have been with him. We would have had a great time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

He was hysterical. I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the backseat, I'm telling you.

[Billie Jean King]

So how did you decide you wanted to be in entertainment? Can I ask you this?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, you can ask me anything.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, I'd rather ask you questions, really.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I just always wanted to be an actor. Just like, from my earliest memory, I was always performing.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, you were, because your mother explained that you asked her how was I as a girl. Remember in one of your interviews?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

When you talked to her and she said you were dialogue. You had dialogue going, and you had this going. And she said you were always. You were always basically acting. But she didn't say.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time, you know, And I would get. I would stand on my blanket and I would dance for people during naptime.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. So you like dancing, too?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, I liked performing. So my naptime dance was. It seemed to be a big hit among the nursery school students.

[Billie Jean King]

It would have been great. Oh, my God. I remember kindergarten. That's what we were supposed to have, these little naps. I'm like, huh? I want to go out and play. Can I go play basketball? Can I go play baseball? Softball? Can I go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, I was. I have to tell you, when I was in. I didn't play much tennis because I. The one thing that I get. I get when I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious. It's not for me. And. But I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade or seventh grade, and they gave awards out at the end, and they gave me Miss Congeniality.

[Billie Jean King]

Okay. But it's like, I could just see that. But it's Interesting that you feel anxious. And when I listen to you, how, when you. How you feel when you perform. It's how I feel when I play tennis. I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp at all.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, right.

[Billie Jean King]

I want to be where I am. I love it. I love the. I want, in fact, I love tennis to be more boisterous. I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt. I think we are just so out of it because, you know, they keep. I keep saying, you guys, everybody. I said, you're talking to 40 year olds, you're talking to 50 year olds. I said, what about the seven, 10 year olds? Their concentration span's seven seconds now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean, yeah, no kidding.

[Billie Jean King]

We gotta do different. We gotta do. But I've wanted this forever for our sport, okay? Cause I grew up in the other sports, like having. Hey, how about having. You know. And Wimbledon went backwards. They go, oh, no, we're gonna go back to all white. What? I said, oh, great. So now you turn it on.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You made all white clothes.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, all white. All white. No, no predominantly white anymore. So I turn it on. I go, oh, great. Both people have white at each end. Okay, great. Who's. Who?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mm.

[Billie Jean King]

It's ridiculous.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's ridiculous.

[Billie Jean King]

We're out to lunch.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to.

[Billie Jean King]

You know, I'm just gonna keep trying, right? Because we have the Billie Jean King cup, which is the World cup of women's tennis now, where they renamed it after me. And now we're involved in that. And we want to make that, you know, like the soccer World Cup. It's the World cup of tennis. And the men's. It's Davis cup. And we're working with them. And I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience. Because when you perform, as you know, everything is about your audience. And that tennis court is our stage. When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage. Yeah, baby, give me the ball. You know, type of feeling. And so, but so when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think or athletes. They think everyone's there for them. No, we're there for the audience. Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment, and when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great. That was whatever. And I want to go back or I Want to take up this or I want to do that. You know, it's like we are there for them. And everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them. And I'm like, oh, my God, you're so. I, I, I. It's we them, you know, like, I don't know. That's how I think.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So can we just. Let's talk about for a second female empowerment. Have you always in your life felt equal to men?

[Billie Jean King]

I've never felt equal to men.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Aha. Talk about that. Billie Jean King.

[Billie Jean King]

Let me correct that. I do feel equal. The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is. The world looks at us differently. I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally, on a personal level. But every single day I have to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Deal with some misogyny.

[Billie Jean King]

If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background, you know? And yet people who are in the know sometimes will say, hey, bud, you should move over. You're not even close to what she's done. Or something occasionally. But I don't. We're second class citizens all the time.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

In pay, in attention, the money we make is always less. That's why I want women's sports to do well, because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us. The more they think about every single job, though. It's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same. Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this. But the way the law, what you started, how you started the program, is exactly what the challenge is, you know, not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing. And also in 1966, actually Title IX hadn't happened. Title IX happened in 72. So I didn't get a scholarship, I didn't get paid to go to college. I worked two jobs and nobody gave. I think it had been reversed. Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school, to college, on a scholarship, and the guys didn't. I guarantee you everybody would be absolutely crazed that the men don't.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

When the men don't get something, they go crazy. Well, they need to do that more and more for us and they're listened to.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, it's funny, I was talking to my friend Paula about this just yesterday and we were saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversations, if a man starts speaking and holding forth. Right?

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. Everybody shuts up.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Everyone. Right. Everyone shuts up. And including Myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say this, very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken. Well, that makes sense that he's bloviating. Right?

[Billie Jean King]

That's too big a word for me.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But isn't it a good. No. Isn't that a good word, though? Doesn't that totally describe what it is?

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, it does. But here's what. It happens in boards. A woman will have an idea, she comes up with it, but until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman had said it earlier. And they steal the ideas all the time and take credit for it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I mean. And in my own life, I mean, of course there's misogyny.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, in entertainment, it's unbelievable.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on. And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades. Decades of experience.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. And you truly were the producer of the show. One of the producers, at least. Of the show.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Exactly. And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers. I mean, it was a. It's infuriating. And it's also. Sometimes it's just. I'm not gonna lie, it's intimidating.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, it is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know. Cause there is that little voice that says, oh, really, should. Do I not deserve this? Am I wrong to be asking?

[Billie Jean King]

You know, I hope you don't get that, that much anymore, that part.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

No, I don't. I don't. But it has been there.

[Billie Jean King]

It's been. Look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports. I mean, you know, all the Emmys and the awards and. Yeah, I mean, you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time. I just.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

Cause sometimes you can't. You just have to keep quiet because you're not gonna win. You know that too. There's certain times you just go, okay, I'm gonna have to let this one go. I don't like it, but I'm gonna have to let it go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after this super quick break. Stay tuned.

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[Ian Mitchell]

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[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Okay, so it's 1973. That's Roe v. Wade and the Equal Rights Amendment era. And women are in a real fight for equality at this time. And you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy Bobby Riggs, who had been a good player back in the day. But at this point was really more of a showman. Right. And he challenges you to an internationally televised matched. The battle of the sex. And this is after he'd already beaten the formidable Margaret Court. So you had to win. And people, you really have to understand how big this was. It was huge. And you played him. And thank God. Oh, my God, I am so happy you won that, Billie Jean.

[Billie Jean King]

So am I. It was big. It was a huge turning point, really, because Title IX had just been passed the year before.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

We were in our third year of women's professional tennis. It was very crucial that I win because we had our tour. And I think if I'd lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhance what we were trying to do. Also, men's professional tennis was young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on a tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom. That's just for tennis but for Society. Finally, in 75, we were allowed to get a credit card on our own. Whoopi. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Congratulations.

[Billie Jean King]

But what it did is it piqued the interest of people. Both genders were. Well, all genders, we'd say now, but then both genders, men and women and women. It really helped their self confidence. I could not believe how they changed. They would run up to me, thanking me, and then they go, you know what? I've been wanting a raise for 10 years. And I finally had the courage to ask for it, you know, And I said, well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get. Because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

We are taught, do not go there. Okay? Do not ask. And they did.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, there was a cultural shift because you won. And did, you know. Did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line, or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the. How did that work in your head as you were actually playing?

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I knew six weeks out and six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself running every ball down. I'm picturing myself making every shot. I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that. I'm not going to react. I'm going to stay. I'm going to get in the next point right away. I'm going to stay focused. I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running Every shot down. I picture my getting every serve in everything, but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards. I meet all the administrators. I meet everybody there, and nothing. This is an Astrodome. Nothing's worse than not is getting lost in an arena. I get to know everybody. I went in the stands, I went up to the top and the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan. In other words, I totally prepare. I really am big on preparation. I think processes just how you win. You stay in the now, you stay in the present. Well, I know when you're acting, aren't you in the present?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally.

[Billie Jean King]

And when you don't do well, we're.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Not right in that sense. It's like a meditation.

[Billie Jean King]

Correct.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because it's just a singular focus. Right?

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to being in the present. I call it in the now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Do you meditate, by the way?

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, I do meditate, yes.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Every day, probably.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, I think so. And I can meditate for 15 seconds. Even help.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds. You get about. You get 90 seconds. So take a part of that and just meditate. Just get your breathing down. Just be. Just be. And yes, I can do that, but I can compartmentalize very quickly. My brain goes very fast. I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me. I also knew that if I were going. If this were going to be my life to try to make this world a better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles. And I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if it would make the world a better place, that, to me, is winning more than ever. Winning a match, like against Bobby Riggs.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But by the way, you've done both. You've made the world a better place and you've won a gazillion titles.

[Billie Jean King]

I'm not finished yet.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I know you're not. Okay.

[Billie Jean King]

No, I'm kidding. No, I'm kidding you.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

So it sounds like. I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person, and certainly as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of, let's get it done. Let's win this thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Am I right?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. You're Right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow. That gives them opportunity, it gives them hope. It gives them. And then get scholarships. Just helps them be a better player, a better person, better human being. Yeah, but because there's, you know, as an athlete, you're done early. So what are you gonna do with the rest of your. Like, singers can keep singing, you can keep working in comedy forever. Forever. We know that at a very young age, we cannot do that. Okay, so what are we gonna do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question, though. So this is from. I have a niece who's a D3 athlete at Emory. She plays soccer.

[Billie Jean King]

Emory's great.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, great. And I texted her, her name is Grace. And I texted her yesterday, and I said, gracie, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow. And I said, do you have any questions? And the following, to your point, she said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because, you know, I think she feels, you know, sort of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, there's two things, okay, that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer. There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing. There's jobs all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Woolard and I, you know, our mentor, Ed Woolard, who's the president of DuPont and CEO and dear friend who just passed, he and I. I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations, but I need three things I can give them that'll help them the rest of their lives. You know, I want to do this. I want this to make it simple, easy. And the three things are. And they do not have to be in this order. Relationships are everything. So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can. Get to know everyone, really enjoy them as human beings. Get to know them. Because you never know, okay? You just don't know. And it's fun. I think it's fun.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And it's fun.

[Billie Jean King]

Well, I love people, so it works for me. But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn, like, technology for my age group is rough. Okay? Okay. So I'm always asking an 8 year old, come over here, help me. Yes. And then the third one is be a problem solver. And an innovator. And that means in real life and in work or whatever you do. And those three things, I think, as I go through each day, I know I hit on those at least one of them every day.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

This is great wisdom, what you're imparting. I mean, for real.

[Billie Jean King]

Do you think that'll help Gracie, though? That's why I'm identified.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I'll let you know. I know. I really appreciate it. I'm going to tell her.

[Billie Jean King]

But being in a sport, she can stay in the sport in a different capacity if she loves it. Like, doesn't want to leave soccer.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes.

[Billie Jean King]

But more importantly, what else does she want to do? But those three things, I think, will cover just about any direction she wants to go.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Okay, so now listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21.

[Billie Jean King]

21. Let me think where I was. 21, okay, 21's right before I went to Wimbledon and all that. I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know who I was yet. And nowadays I think that's the one great thing with today, is that I think I would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger person today.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Got it.

[Billie Jean King]

Not to say it wouldn't be difficult.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Sure.

[Billie Jean King]

Or whatever, because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT community is having a harder time. Again, I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings. First, we all bleed red. It doesn't matter what color our skin is, doesn't matter what how we self identify sexually. It doesn't matter that we be right, that we just start. I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as a. I go blank. I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way, before I start drawing who this person is. And that I really always want to think the best of them first. And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole nother discussion. But I think it's really important to start out with just being. Being kind and good to whoever you meet. And don't have any preconceived ideas about them. And we're all biased. But the important thing is to do a gut check when we are. I always go, stop. Start with nothing first. Just be kind of Good. Unless they prove to you that they're just. They're bad news. They're bad news.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

But is there anything before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging?

[Billie Jean King]

You know what I found? I think aging has been, in some ways, the greatest. In some ways is tough. Tough physically, there's no question. And also your mind mentally. I don't want to get dementia, for instance. I'm scared of that because my parents had it. Things like that. But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

What.

[Billie Jean King]

And that is emotionally, I am so happy compared to my young days. I cannot tell you really. But I've worked at it through therapy, through thinking, through just going through tough times. But I just emotionally am in such a great place now.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God.

[Billie Jean King]

I hope you are now, too. But I don't know where everyone is.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yes, I am. No, I am. I'm in a very, you know, touchwood. I'm in a very good place.

[Billie Jean King]

It sounds like you are. Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah, I am. I totally am. And I'm. But I'm so happy that you say that. And you're not actually, you know, because on this show, we speak to older women about their wisdom, and that's. You're not the first person who has said that. There's something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age, which is a complete blessing. Right?

[Billie Jean King]

Yes. And also, when you're older, you have perspective that you didn't have as a younger person.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Mm. Mm.

[Billie Jean King]

You have perspective, You've lived longer, things don't bother you as much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

That's why kids love their grandparents so much.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right.

[Billie Jean King]

Because the grandparent goes, yeah. And they say, oh, my God, I gotta tell them this, but oh, my God. And then you tell them. They go, okay. And they go, yeah. You're not upset or anything? No. Are you okay? Whereas a parent.

[Judith Bowles]

What?

[Billie Jean King]

You know, it's so different.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah. A lot of hand wringing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, completely.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah. They're more understanding.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

It's true. It's completely true. I can't thank you enough for talking with me today. I really enjoyed every second of this conversation.

[Billie Jean King]

Yeah, me too. It's been great. I really appreciate it. Say hi to everybody and tell your team of people, because everything starts with team. Really?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Totally.

[Billie Jean King]

Tell them, thanks again for all their help. I really appreciate it. Good luck in your lives. Go for it.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Oh, my God. Billie Jean King. That woman is just so impressive. That human is impressive. My mom is going to love to hear about this one. It's time to get her on a zoom call. Hi mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Hi love.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

How are you?

[Billie Jean King]

Good.

[Judith Bowles]

It's rainy. Rainy here. Is it raining there?

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

I wish. No, it's full sun. But we talked to Billie Jean King today.

[Judith Bowles]

Uh huh. Wow.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And you would just love this woman, Billie Jean King. Mom. It was just. She is such a positive human being. Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match because you know, he originally wanted to have this match with her. Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete, has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs. And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time, and she did play him and she lost. And so then when Bobby Riggs came to Billie Jean and say, now I'm gonna beat you, Billie Jean King realized what was at stake here. She knew that what the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it.

[Judith Bowles]

I mean it was sort of a joke match, you know, in many ways. And then it wasn't because.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Right, exactly.

[Judith Bowles]

Because she won and, and then that it sort of, in a humorous way, it changed the flow of history.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, it did, didn't it? I mean, she says that generally speaking, women's self confidence was lifted up in a way. And it's funny because I think it really seeped into the win, really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of self.

[Judith Bowles]

And he was such a braggadocio and he was gonna win and he was gonna win and he was gonna win. And that made it even more delicious. The fact that she just played the.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Game and she played him and killed him in three straight sets, you know, and I asked her, does she feel equal to men? And she says she feels equal to men, but that the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman in. In a world where men are in charge?

[Judith Bowles]

From my generation, I would say that one thing. In the beginning I just went along with it. I mean it just, I accepted that. And you know, when I went to Duke, I went as a pre med. Well, all I had to do in the south at that time in the 50s was say I was going to go to med school. And they'd say no, no, women don't go to med school. And I said, oh, okay. So. So I mean that's, that shows you that, that I was. Whatever they said was fine. And it's, it's only. I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of sideswiped by feminism, the feminist movement, in other words, it sort of happened to us. We didn't. Well, people like Billie Jean King made it happen. But what. But most of us were sort of living, living with the reality of it and sort of keeping our skills and our power to ourselves. So women with other women could be. Do all kinds of things, but it let a man enter the room and it was a very charged and different atmosphere.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

And describe what that means, like how is it charged and how is it different?

[Judith Bowles]

The women were sort of the generator when they were together and talking. But if a man came in, there was a kind of a giving over. It's like, oh, well, we had to say, what do you have to say? What do you think? That's what's really important. And then in so many instances, even now in a room, it'll be the men that. I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room sometimes even is like people sort of sit back and I mean, it's sort of noticed. Not so much now maybe because of course we've had.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, maybe now, mom, maybe now. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm certainly aware of that. You know, I'm, I'm certainly aware of the fact that if, like in a, in a writer's room, for example, male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily. I mean, I realize that's a big generalization and of course it's not always the case. But it's funny how it's sort of that inequity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing it.

[Judith Bowles]

I think that's really a wonderful way to put it, but. And you know what's interesting is that when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Yeah.

[Judith Bowles]

And they are taking charge. I mean, they, they do, they take charge and they don't think too much about it. I mean, it's just like I've sort of been waiting always. I've always done this or I've been waiting to do this, or they, it's within them as something that hasn't always been task and they're just waiting for.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

The guys to die and then they're gonna.

[Judith Bowles]

That's one way. But you know, one thing, one thing that I'm excited about, you having talked to Billie Jean King is because she truly was iconic. Is iconic. I mean, she's a figure that represents so much right. Turning, correct being. And she. She seems to have that, like a motor in her that was just going to go. You know, she's got the life force in her. And I. I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

All of her life. And for the greater good, by the way.

[Judith Bowles]

Well, thanks to her for, you know, women getting paid in athletics now. Thanks to women getting looked up to in athletics.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Women in athletics, period, even, you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf. Golf, yeah, Right. That was it. You can play any sport professionally, I. E. Be paid for it. And by the way, she loves that I call you Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Oh.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Because she calls her mom or call. Her mother's passed away now, but she called her mom mommy and her dad Daddy, just like we do.

[Judith Bowles]

I love that. There's something so cozy about that.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

You know, that's what I said to her. She says it's like a giant hut.

[Judith Bowles]

It is, it is. And when. And when you hear Mommy, you know, like when you hear it, I don't know what your boys call you, but.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

When mommy, they call me Mommy.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Or mama.

[Judith Bowles]

Yeah, right. It's just. It's too wonderful. It's too wonderful. So, yeah, keep it up for all. For everything.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

100% mommy. I always will. All right, Mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you. I love you.

[Judith Bowles]

Thank you. I love you, too, honey.

[Billie Jean King]

Hey, yeah.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada. Premium subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts. Follow the show @wiserthanme on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook, too. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julie Julia, Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamilah, zara Williams, Alex McCullen and Oja Lopez. Brad hall is a consulting producer, Rachel Neal is VP of new content, and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Joni Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber. And our music was written by Henry hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and, of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life. Listen up.

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Support for this episode comes from aws. AWS Generative AI gives you the tools to power your business forward with the security and speed of the world's most experienced cloud.

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Support for this podcast comes from Stripe. Stripe is a payments and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like uber, BMW and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally. The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to fast track growth like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription based charges, invoicing and all recurring revenue management needs. You can learn how Stripe helps companies of all sizes make [e-mail] that's stripe.com to learn more. Stripe Make Progress.