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Hey, it's Alan. And I just wanted to let you know that you can now listen to the ongoing history of new music. Early and ad free on Amazon. Music included with prime now at the Home Depot. Receive 12 months special financing and free basic installation on carpet projects with lifeproof. Lifeproof with pet proof technology, Home decorators collection and traffic Master carpets. Bring a new look to your floors or give them a durable surface that stands up to life's tough messes. Get 12 months special financing on installed carpet projects right now at the Home Depot. Valid March 12 through March 29, 2026. Exclusions and additional charges may apply for licenses see homedepot.com licensenumbers. Hi, everyone. I'm Charlie Cox. Join us on Disney as we talk with the cast and crew of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. What haven't you gotten to do as Daredevil? Being the Avengers, Charlie and Vincent came to play. I get emotional when I think about it. One of the great finales of any episode we've ever done. We are gonna play truth or Daredevil.
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Oh, boy. Fantastic. You guys go hard, man. Daredevil Born Again official podcast and stream season two of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again on Disney. You don't need me to tell you that this is a complicated universe. In fact, it's not only more complicated than we imagine, it's weirder and messier than we can imagine. Yet we still try to impose some sort of order on everything. Take rock music, for example. I was in Paris once and I walked into a megastore in the Champs Elysees because, you know, that's what I do. I drag people into record stores while I'm on my vacation. Anyway, this particular store had individual sections for what seemed like every conceivable genre of rock and roll. All these individual sounds and styles grouped and ghettoed into individual racks. And at first I thought this was pretty cool and convenient, but then it really got confusing. In which section would I find Band X? Why was Nine Inch Nails under electronica instead of industrial? If there was a grunge section, where was Nirvana? Oh, it's, oh, they're over in the mainstream rock rack. Who made that call? And should goth and death metal be on the same shelves or should we separate them because it might get ugly? Anyway, this got me thinking. Whatever happened to the word alternative music? Does it still exist? Should it still exist? What's the difference between a major and an indie? See what I mean? See, the bottom line is that it can get very Very confusing for the average rock fan, but let's see if we just can't sort of sort things out a bit. So, rock snobs, you take a break. This is not for you. What we need to re establish here are some very basic terms if we're ever going to communicate with each other properly ever again. This is the ongoing History of New Music podcast with Alan Cross. Welcome again, I'm Alan Cross and with this show we're going to re establish some very, very, very basic definitions so we can all communicate in a clear and concise and efficient manner. Think of these terms as the skeleton, the framework on which all of new rock is hung. Does that make sense? Okay, let's start with this. What exactly is new rock? It's a great question and the answer is a little more complicated than you might think. In ancient days, say, oh, the 70s and 80s, people were placed into one of two tribes. You were either a fan of the rock that you heard on the radio and saw racked up front in the record store or at the mall, or you were a fan of the stuff that didn't make it onto the radio and the stuff that you found at the dark, dingy, weird little record stores in town. Complicating matters was the fact that you couldn't be a member of both tribes. It wasn't allowed. You had to pick a side or risk being beaten up and stuffed into your locker. The mainstream rockers were into Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, AC, dc, Aerosmith, Van Halen and so on. The Weird Kids were into the Smiths and Depeche Mode, Elvis Costello, Joy Division, Iggy Pop and the Velvet Underground. And at some point, the Weird Kids gave a name to their tribe's music. They called it alternative music. Alright, well why? Another fine question about nomenclature. Here's the explanation I personally like the best. In those ancient days, all the mainstream rock acts were on major record labels and sold albums by the boatload. The majors weren't interested in the weird stuff. So those bands could only find homes on small independent record labels. By the very early 1980s, those small indie labels had become known as alternative record companies because they provided a career option, a career alternative for the weird bands who couldn't find homes with the majors. Those acts who recorded for the alternative labels became known as alternative bands who made alternative music. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Jonathan Richman had a band called the Modern Lovers and they recorded for a tiny label called Berserkly. Berserkly was one of the early alternative companies, which made Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers one of the first alternative bands. This is from 1971. Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers with Roadrunner, released on the Berserkly label, one of the first ever of the so called alternative labels. Making the Modern Lovers one of the first alternative bands Making alternative music. Got that. Eventually though, thanks mainly to the grunge explosion of the early and mid-90s, this underground form of rock and roll overtook and replaced most of the mainstream rock acts. Van Halen and Pink Floyd made way for Nirvana and Soundgarden, the Smashing Pumpkins and a bunch of others. In other words, by the middle 1990s, alternative music wasn't an alternative to anything anymore. It was now the mainstream, which caused much soul searching and hand wringing amongst musicians and fans alike. A new term was required and it got very confusing and there were many arguments. Alt rock was suggested and deemed good for some situations, but useless for others. Modern rock was used for a while. Postmodern was another term, but no one really knew what that meant. But Here, in the first decade of the 21st century, we seem to have settled on a rather generic term. New rock. If it's got any strand of rock and roll in its DNA and it's new, then it stands to reason that it is new rock. If some of this DNA can be traced back to the punk rock and the new wave explosion of the 1970s, that's very good. It lends some extra credibility to everything. And if you can follow its sonic lineage all the way back to performers like David Bowie or Kraftwerk or Iggy Pop and the Velvet Underground, well, it just doesn't get any more authentic and approved than that. At the other end of the spectrum, Van Halen and Aerosmith and the Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin are now described as classic rock. Their sonic traditions are grounded in the blues, not punk. In other words, their spiritual ancestors were Robert Johnson and Howlin Wolf, not Johnny Rotten or Joey Ramone. But here's the interesting thing. Remember how I said that back in the day it wasn't possible to be a fan of both AC DC and Depeche Mode? You had to pick that side. Today, that's really not the situation with a lot of young people. That snobbishness is disappearing on both sides. So it is now perfectly okay, in fact, admirable and enviable to appreciate the aesthetic and artistic value of not only Arcade Fire, the Pixies and Coldplay, but also the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and AC dc, not to mention Marvin Gaye, James Brown and Elvis Presley. You know what I'm talking about. Just think of the ecumenical musical aesthetic of movies like School of Rock and you get an idea of what we're dealing with here. And this attitude isn't that new. Back in the early 1990s, Kurt Cobain proudly proclaimed that Nirvana was a cross between the Beatles and Black Sabbath. Billy Corrigan of the Smashing Pumpkins championed groups like Cheap Trick and Judas Priest. And today it's to the point where even hardcore new rock bands, alt rock bands, alternative bands like the Dropkick Murphys are having fun recording AC DC songs. Since we're trying to sort out what some commonly used terms mean, what's the difference between alternative and indie? That's much more complicated than you might imagine. More in a moment. This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Big news for your kids lunchbox. Welch's fruit snacks are now made without any artificial dyes. A snack parents can feel good about and the same delicious taste kids can't get enough of. All made with no artificial dyes. Try Welch's Fruit Snacks today. This episode is brought to you by Cologuard. Do you know what's really scary? Not screening for colon cancer when you turn 45. The cologuard test is non invasive, requires no special prep or time off work, and ships right to your door. In just three simple steps, Cologuard takes the scare out of colon cancer screening. If you're 45 or older and at average risk. Ask your healthcare provider about the Cologuard test. Cologuard is available by prescription only. Learn more or request a prescription today@cologuard.com screen welcome back. We're trying to nail down some basic musical definitions in an effort to be able to communicate better with other rock fans. And we began by wrestling with the definitions definition of alternative music and how that term came to be and what it means today. Now let's work on the meaning of the word indie. But first we need to back up. When someone says major record label, what do they mean? Well, that's fairly simple. A major label is one of the multinational giants that control most of the world's flow of recorded music. Now, there used to be a lot of them, but thanks to a couple of decades of merging and consolidation, there are just four Universal, emi, Sony BMG and Warner. Where it gets complicated is when you begin to realize that each of the four majors has a slew of subsidiary labels. In the case of Universal, they have sub labels like Interscope Island Def Jam, dgc, Real World, and a ton of others who all operate under the Universal umbrella and thus can all be considered major labels in some fashion. Sony, bmg, EMI and Warner all have similar setups. So you got that. There may be dozens of labels out there, but a crapload of them are actually part of the fold at one of the four majors. Now here is an example of a major label artist. In fact, it doesn't get much more major than U2. They began life with an independent label, Island Records, but then island was bought and folded into Universal and that's where they are now. Okay, so we've established what's meant by major label. Now let's move on to indie. Indie is short for, of course, independent. It's another way of saying that a particular artist issues their music through a company or label that is in no way affiliated with a major record label. It's independent in all its business and distribution dealings. Now, this could mean recording for a self contained third party company with no affiliation to Universal, emi, Sony, BMG or Warner. Or it could mean that you formed your own label and you run the show. If you're an indie artist, it usually means you have total creative control over your career and your music and your image. You are your own boss and you are in charge of your own destiny, which is just awesome. However, it also means that you're on the hook for all the risks and hassles. This includes manufacturing your records, actually getting them into as many record stores as you can, and then collecting the money from the sales of those records. You also have to worry about audits, taxes, contracts, bank accounts, bills, tour support, advertising, arranging interviews, arrangements for shooting the video, and a billion other things that would normally be handled by a staff of dozens, if not hundreds at a major label. So in other words, indie artists not only have to make sure the music is right, they have to make sure that the business side of things is working. And with all that involves, there's often precious little time for the music, which is why you got into this thing in the first place, right? But hey, if you've got the right people working for you, you can still make it. Merge Records was formed by a couple of members of an independent band called Super Chunk in Chapel Hill, North Carolina back in 1989. They struggled for years and it wasn't until late 2004 that this work really began to pay off. That's when a merge act, the Montreal based Arcade Fire, began to take off. In fact, they became one of the most talked about and best Selling independent artists of 20. But even that pales in comparison to what Epitaph Records, the punk rock label based in Orange County, California, did with one of their acts. Like Merge. Epitaph was founded by a band that was unsatisfied with the major label system. In this case, the group was Bad Religion. And like the Superchunk people with Merge, the Bad Religion guys went through some rough times until they hit it big. In their case, the big payday came with the Offspring and their Smash album. If you're keeping score, Smash is the biggest selling independent record in modern history, with worldwide sales of somewhere around 15 million. So you see, it can be done. Then again, it's also possible to win a lottery. So independent means you're outside the major label system and you fend for yourself, correct? Usually, yes, but not always. The biggest challenge any indie label can have is distribution. How do you get your artist records into as many record stores as possible? And even more importantly, how do you make sure that when you sell some records, that money is collected and sent back to you? This has been the death of untold hundreds of indie bands. Nirvana went through it when they were recording for Sub Pop. Sonic Youth was the biggest American indie band of the 1980s, but they nearly went broke because they had such a hard time collecting their cash. The majors also know that there's a certain cache to at least appear to have the street cred that comes with being on an indie. Now this has led to two things. The first was the creation of boutique labels. These are record companies that look and sound indie, but are actually carefully disguised subsidiaries of a major label. Some boutique labels are also vanity labels, indie looking imprints set up on behalf of important artists. When Led Zeppelin ruled the world in the 1970s, their label Atlantic created a special subsidiary for them called Swansong. Years later, Interscope, which is part of Universal, created Nothing Records for Trent Reznor and Nine Inch Nails. This gave Trent some extra creative control and allowed him to pursue, sign, develop and produce talent on his own. And this is where Marilyn Manson came from. Marilyn Manson, a major label artist who recorded through Nothing Records, a vanity boutique label subsidiary of Interscope Records, which in turn is part of the major label stable that is Universal Records. Got that? The other option is to forge a mutually beneficial deal between a major and an honest to God indy. This indie, a truly independent company, will continue to develop the music independently and the major will take care of the distribution in return for a cut of the action, of course. Take the case of Maple Music. This is an independent label with a solid roster of indie musicians who are now famous thanks to the distribution power of Universal. Everyone wins, right? Sam Roberts. So we're cool, right? We know what's meant by indie and indie artist. Well, we do, almost. Indie also implies underground, the kind of music that flies below the mainstream's radar. In other words, in some cases, indie can mean underground and indy and underground are also the new alternative. So alternative music rock that is an alternative to everything we see and hear in the mainstream, still exists. It's just that you have to look for it and maybe sometime call it indie or underground music. It's the stuff of small dingy clubs and weird little record stores selling stuff on obscure indie labels just like it was back in the day. It's cutting edge stuff that's not for everyone yet. So we're finally done with the term indie, right? Um, well, no, because there's still the British translation of that word. That's next.
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Refreshing Wild Cherry Cola meets Smooth Cream, the treat you deserve. Pepsi Wild Cherry' n Cream Treat yourself We're almost done wrestling with the few basic words in the rock and roll vocabulary. Remember how we talked about what the word alternative means, or at least what it meant? We also figured what it means when someone drops the term indie. Well, we talked about what it means when you say the word indie in North America. In the uk, indie can be roughly interchangeable with alternative. See, while the major labels have a big presence in Britain, there have always been tons and tons of tiny independent labels in the country, many of which specialize in new and exciting cutting edge rock. But because of the makeup of the UK music industry, an indie artist has a better shot of seeping into the mainstream than they do in North America. Why? A couple reasons here. Number one, the UK is obviously much smaller geographically. There's less physical territory for any one company to cover. Two national radio networks, especially the BBC. Unlike the cbc, the BBC has entire networks completely devoted to pop and rock music. This means that if an indie artist can get added to the playlist at, say, BBC Radio 1, that song can instantly be heard all across the nation. National TV music programs like Top of the Pops. If you make the charts, it's possible for you, the indie artist to suddenly get a shot on national tv. At number four we have the British music press. Weekly papers like the New Musical Express feel it is their mandate to uncover and then promote the next big things. The Enemy will often champion an unknown or nearly unknown band on the COVID which will suddenly thrust them into the national spotlight. The Britpop scene was nearly 100% indie driven back in the middle 90s. People forget that Blur made it big well on a tiny little label called Food. Meanwhile, Oasis became one of the biggest bands in the world while part of the roster of a formerly has been label called Creation. And like we saw during the grunge era here in North America, where all the alternative acts took over the mainstream, Britain's musical landscape was transformed when their alternatives, the indies, took over that mainstream. We have established what new rock and alternative means. We got through the process of defining major label and sorting out all that goes with that. Plus we went through what it means to be indie, including making allowances for the British usage of the word indie. And finally we're okay with phrases like boutique label and vanity label. I hope things are a little more clear. We will come back to this sort of thing from time to time just to make sure that we're all on the same page. Clarity. Because you know, we want clarity. Textile Productions by Rob Johnston I'm Alan Cross. Security program on spreadsheets. New regulations, piling up an audit dread. It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security and compliance, brings evidence into one place and cuts audit prep by 82%. Less manual work, clearer visibility, faster deals, zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it compliance. Get it? Join the 15,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to vanta.com calm.