Ongoing History of New Music: “Definition (from the vault)”

Host: Alan Cross
Date: March 18, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Alan Cross dives into the tangled web of terminology that shapes the alt-rock and broader new music universe. The focus is on clearing up confusion about labels like “alternative,” “indie,” “major,” “boutique,” and “new rock,” tracing their origins, meanings, and ongoing evolution. By breaking down these foundational terms, Alan aims to help listeners—especially non-snobs—communicate more clearly about music in a landscape that’s as diverse as it is dynamic.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Complicated Universe of Genre Labels

• Alan begins by reflecting on how music genres are sorted in stores, noting the arbitrary and confusing categorizations of bands like Nine Inch Nails or Nirvana.

  • Quote: “Who made that call? And should goth and death metal be on the same shelves or should we separate them because it might get ugly?” (03:08)

• Raises the core question: What happened to “alternative music”? Is it still a useful term?

2. The Rise and Transformation of ‘Alternative’

• In the 70s and 80s, there were two musical “tribes”: mainstream (Led Zeppelin, AC/DC) vs. the weird/underground (The Smiths, Depeche Mode).

  • “It wasn’t possible to be a fan of both AC/DC and Depeche Mode. You had to pick a side or risk being beaten up and stuffed into your locker.” (05:10)

• “Alternative music” started as music released by small, independent labels for bands shunned by majors.

  • Jonathan Richman & The Modern Lovers with the Berserkly label: an early “alternative” example. (09:17)

• The grunge explosion “overtook and replaced most mainstream rock acts” (Nirvana, Soundgarden, etc.).

  • By the mid-90s, “alternative” became the mainstream—a term without its original meaning.

3. The Search for New Labels: Alt-Rock, Modern Rock, New Rock

• In the early 2000s, terms like “alt rock” and “modern rock” floated around, but none quite fit.
• “New rock” becomes the catch-all for anything with a rock lineage, especially with connections to punk, new wave, and icons like David Bowie or Kraftwerk.

4. Erosion of Musical Snobbishness

• Once rigid divisions between rock fans are softening; young people now mix classic rock, new rock, and even soul with ease.

  • “It is now perfectly okay, in fact, admirable and enviable to appreciate the aesthetic and artistic value of not only Arcade Fire, the Pixies and Coldplay, but also the Beatles and Led Zeppelin and AC/DC, not to mention Marvin Gaye, James Brown and Elvis Presley.” (12:55)

• Even icons like Kurt Cobain and Billy Corgan cited influences across the stylistic divide.

  • “Kurt Cobain proudly proclaimed that Nirvana was a cross between the Beatles and Black Sabbath.” (13:42)
  • “Billy Corgan of the Smashing Pumpkins championed groups like Cheap Trick and Judas Priest.” (13:55)

5. Major Labels vs. Indie Labels: Definitions and Realities

• Major Label: One of the big four (Universal, EMI, Sony BMG, Warner) and their subsidiaries.

  • Example: U2 started on Island Records (independent), later absorbed into Universal. (23:15)

• Indie (Independent): Artist or label unaffiliated with a major. Implies creative freedom, but also full responsibility for business logistics.

  • Quote: “If you’re an indie artist … you are your own boss and you are in charge of your own destiny, which is just awesome. However, it also means that you’re on the hook for all the risks and hassles.” (25:00)

• Success Stories:

  • Merge Records (formed by Superchunk); major breakout with Arcade Fire.
  • Epitaph Records (founded by Bad Religion); struck gold with The Offspring’s Smash album—“the biggest selling independent record in modern history.” (27:55)

6. Indie vs. Major: Blurred Lines

• Boutique/Vanity Labels: Indie-looking labels are often actually subsidiaries for majors, offering creative control but with corporate backing.

  • Quote: “These are record companies that look and sound indie, but are actually carefully disguised subsidiaries of a major label.” (31:20)
  • Examples: Swansong for Led Zeppelin, Nothing Records (Trent Reznor/Nine Inch Nails under Interscope/Universal). Marilyn Manson’s career is tied to this structure.

• Hybrid Deals: True indies partnering with majors for distribution (e.g., Maple Music with Universal).

• Indie as “Underground”: Sometimes “indie” connotes not just business independence but also a spirit of being outside the mainstream.

7. The UK Usage of ‘Indie’

• In Britain, “indie” is nearly synonymous with “alternative.”
• Easier for indie acts to enter the mainstream due to:
  • Geographical compactness
  • National radio/TV (BBC, Top of the Pops)
  • Aggressive and influential music press (NME)
• Examples:
  • Blur on Food label; Oasis on Creation—indie labels that broke into the mainstream.
  • “The Britpop scene was nearly 100% indie driven back in the middle 90s.” (35:45)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “It’s not only more complicated than we imagine, it’s weirder and messier than we can imagine. Yet we still try to impose some sort of order on everything.” – Alan Cross (02:05)
• “Think of these terms as the skeleton, the framework on which all of new rock is hung.” – Alan Cross (04:30)
• “If it’s got any strand of rock and roll in its DNA and it’s new, then it stands to reason that it is new rock.” – Alan Cross (10:38)
• “Indie artists not only have to make sure the music is right, they have to make sure that the business side of things is working. And with all that involves, there’s often precious little time for the music, which is why you got into this thing in the first place, right?” – Alan Cross (26:12)
• “So alternative music rock that is an alternative to everything we see and hear in the mainstream, still exists. It’s just that you have to look for it and maybe sometime call it indie or underground music.” (34:55)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|-------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:57–03:40 | Introduction & the challenge of music categorization | | 04:20–11:00 | Defining ‘alternative music’ and its transition to mainstream | | 11:00–14:30 | Shifting attitudes, dissolved genre boundaries | | 15:40–19:35 | Major vs. indie labels and what it means to be indie | | 23:15–28:10 | Case studies: Merge Records, Epitaph, challenges for indies | | 31:20–33:00 | Boutique labels, vanity imprints, and the corporate/indie blend | | 34:00–36:55 | “Indie” in the UK: scene dynamics and Britpop | | 37:00–end | Recap and takeaways |

Takeaways

• Terminology in music is ever-evolving and often messy; understanding origins and usage helps avoid confusion.
• The labels “alternative” and “indie” have shifted as underground scenes became mainstream, but their spirit persists in new forms.
• Major and indie labels can overlap in surprising ways, especially with distribution, boutique, and vanity setups.
• British and North American music industries differ in how “indie” artists break through.
• The current music landscape celebrates eclectic tastes and genre inclusivity more than ever before.

Host’s Parting Words:
“We will come back to this sort of thing from time to time just to make sure that we’re all on the same page. Clarity. Because you know, we want clarity.” (36:55)

Summary by Ongoing History of New Music enthusiast; all segment times and quotes are attributed to Alan Cross unless otherwise noted.